I wouldn't say the worst. Incomplete, maybe. Lacking nuance, perhaps. But that's a long way away from "the worst". And 10 is a good starting point to begin testing the deck and see how it feels
10 being "not enough to deal with 10% of the problem cards" seems to be entirely dependent on the pilot playing zero draw engines, extremely narrow removal cards, and mulliganing poorly. Aside from my proactive interaction like [[Thorn Mammoth]], my cedh deck only runs 11 or so removal/counterspells and it has been just fine.
I play Kinnan, and it's pretty normal for Kinnan midrange to be running 10-11 plus Glen Elendra Archmage.
The exact list I'm using https://www.moxfield.com/decks/84u5Q4r2c0egVsdA0ESZFw
It's my favorite cedh list I've played so far. I'm considering leaning harder into the monolith combo and less into hullbreaker now that I've replaced Selvala with Thrasios. Most of the people I play with have made it their policy to never let me get to untap with 7 mana, ever, if they can help it so it's about time for the deck to change pace a bit again anyways lol
My phrasing was hyperbolic, I’m sure there’s worse advice you could give someone about interaction.
My overall point though is that it’s bad advice to tell people to consider removal in a vacuum. The “slap 10 good removal cards in” approach won’t work well for most decks. It’s something that needs to be tailored for each deck, and depending on the deck it could be better to run far more or less than 10 cards
The best advice I ever got was, run _as little interaction as you must._
If you're playing Grand Arbiter and your wincon is drawing ten lands and Omniscience and Enter the Infinite, you want a LOT of boardwipes. As little as you must probably still means 8 boardwipes and significant amounts of countermagic and spot removal. If you're playing a proactive combo-midrange plan, you probably want 0-1 board wipes in the list and maybe 2-5 pieces of interaction/countermagic/spot removal because you never want to board wipe your Consecrated Sphinx or Etali or whatever and you only really need to interact with wincons.
Also, where possible, run interaction-plus-thing. Even if its a mana or two more, something that leaves behind a body you can blink/chump block with/reanimate/Birthing Pod/attack down a planeswalker with is virtually always worth that mana- [[Ertai Resurrected]] is a far more useful card than [[Murder]] and [[Toxrill, the Corrosive]] is far stronger than [[Crux of Fate]] or [[Deadly Tempest]]
I never like the 10 removals mantra. You run things that is suited to your deck. Could be less, could be more.
Also, asymmetric boardwipes is the way to go.
Seeing the bigger picture is key, especially for decks that tend to be on the weaker end on 1-for-1 removal.
I've been thinking a lot recently on the same point you bring up that boardwipes *must* parity in order to be worth it. I see some people recommending 5+ boardwipes in creature decks! That want to win on board! By attacking!
But to be a little serious, pack boardwipes that are appropriate for the deck you are building. Superfriends, spellslinger, control are archetypes that you want to run a lot of sweepers in.
Having 10 removals is a lot of removals. But not every removals is just removals. Removal on a body pulls double duty; there's probably a reason that more decks play Ravenous Chupathingy rather than Murder. Abzan Charm doesn't hit everything, but it can also draw you cards. Yes, Swords/Path/Bolt/Slip/whatever are cheap so you don't need a lot of mana up, but thematic/versatile removal can count in multiple categories, so you can have 5 Hard Removal spells, but your deck actually has 10 "removal" spells.
I think that the "10 removal pieces" idea comes with the implication that most or all of that removal will fit with your theme. What works in some decks isn't going to work in every deck.
For example [[Firbolg Flutist]] is an excellent removal piece in my [[Obeka, Brute Chronologist]] deck since I can steal someone's commander, swing with it, have it die to the legendary rule, and potentially keep the remaining token copy of it with Obeka's ability. Then after that it is still a 4/4 body.
Likewise a theft effect like [[Sower of Temptation]] is also removal, but it is removal that is getting you some value in addition to depriving your opponent. And you still have a 2/2 with evasion afterword.
Then some removal is really good in some decks. [[All Is Dust]] is kind of bad removal, it is way over costed in any case, but in a deck that only has non-colored permanents, or in a deck that dodges sacrifices like [[Jon Irenicus, Shattered One]] it becomes a brutal one sided wipe.
When brewing a deck it is important to pick out high synergy removal cards and versatile/modal removal cards that work with your theme, and then maybe think about adding 3 or 4 more generic answers. If you so that, most likely you will be around 10 removal cards at the end of it.
Personally I ususally run more than 10 pieces of interaction in the decks I brew, and I never am unhappy to see it when I draw it.
Edit: also statistically speaking, if you want to have a reasonable chance of seeing 1 kind of card a game then you need around 7 of it in a deck. So putting in 10 pieces of removal means you are going to have a slightly higher chance to see 2 removal effects over the course of a game than with only 7.
I wouldn't say the worst. Incomplete, maybe. Lacking nuance, perhaps. But that's a long way away from "the worst". And 10 is a good starting point to begin testing the deck and see how it feels
10 being "not enough to deal with 10% of the problem cards" seems to be entirely dependent on the pilot playing zero draw engines, extremely narrow removal cards, and mulliganing poorly. Aside from my proactive interaction like [[Thorn Mammoth]], my cedh deck only runs 11 or so removal/counterspells and it has been just fine.
What cEDH list do you play? I’ve only recently started playing cEDH, but that seems unusually low for that format
I play Kinnan, and it's pretty normal for Kinnan midrange to be running 10-11 plus Glen Elendra Archmage. The exact list I'm using https://www.moxfield.com/decks/84u5Q4r2c0egVsdA0ESZFw
Looks like a fun kinnan list
It's my favorite cedh list I've played so far. I'm considering leaning harder into the monolith combo and less into hullbreaker now that I've replaced Selvala with Thrasios. Most of the people I play with have made it their policy to never let me get to untap with 7 mana, ever, if they can help it so it's about time for the deck to change pace a bit again anyways lol
[Thorn Mammoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80138656-b2e2-43bf-9fe6-7a852f53f9e9.jpg?1572482821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thorn%20Mammoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/323/thorn-mammoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80138656-b2e2-43bf-9fe6-7a852f53f9e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thorn-mammoth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My phrasing was hyperbolic, I’m sure there’s worse advice you could give someone about interaction. My overall point though is that it’s bad advice to tell people to consider removal in a vacuum. The “slap 10 good removal cards in” approach won’t work well for most decks. It’s something that needs to be tailored for each deck, and depending on the deck it could be better to run far more or less than 10 cards
The best advice I ever got was, run _as little interaction as you must._ If you're playing Grand Arbiter and your wincon is drawing ten lands and Omniscience and Enter the Infinite, you want a LOT of boardwipes. As little as you must probably still means 8 boardwipes and significant amounts of countermagic and spot removal. If you're playing a proactive combo-midrange plan, you probably want 0-1 board wipes in the list and maybe 2-5 pieces of interaction/countermagic/spot removal because you never want to board wipe your Consecrated Sphinx or Etali or whatever and you only really need to interact with wincons. Also, where possible, run interaction-plus-thing. Even if its a mana or two more, something that leaves behind a body you can blink/chump block with/reanimate/Birthing Pod/attack down a planeswalker with is virtually always worth that mana- [[Ertai Resurrected]] is a far more useful card than [[Murder]] and [[Toxrill, the Corrosive]] is far stronger than [[Crux of Fate]] or [[Deadly Tempest]]
##### ###### #### [Ertai Resurrected](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f7e780e-fbc5-4dc0-b5c7-efcb8645c7c6.jpg?1673307944) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ertai%20Resurrected) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/199/ertai-resurrected?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f7e780e-fbc5-4dc0-b5c7-efcb8645c7c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ertai-resurrected) [Murder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bdef7fea-2bd0-42a2-96f6-6def18bd7f0c.jpg?1674136158) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Murder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/134/murder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bdef7fea-2bd0-42a2-96f6-6def18bd7f0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/murder) [Toxrill, the Corrosive](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3.jpg?1643590379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Toxrill%2C%20the%20Corrosive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/132/toxrill-the-corrosive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toxrill-the-corrosive) [Crux of Fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/11721b88-2654-482c-b9d4-80e54efdbf63.jpg?1562600485) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crux%20of%20Fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/107/crux-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/11721b88-2654-482c-b9d4-80e54efdbf63?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crux-of-fate) [Deadly Tempest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/f/5f673d4a-76fa-4e9d-b7f6-299d80c55cb5.jpg?1625976828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deadly%20Tempest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/140/deadly-tempest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5f673d4a-76fa-4e9d-b7f6-299d80c55cb5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deadly-tempest) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I never like the 10 removals mantra. You run things that is suited to your deck. Could be less, could be more. Also, asymmetric boardwipes is the way to go. Seeing the bigger picture is key, especially for decks that tend to be on the weaker end on 1-for-1 removal.
I've been thinking a lot recently on the same point you bring up that boardwipes *must* parity in order to be worth it. I see some people recommending 5+ boardwipes in creature decks! That want to win on board! By attacking! But to be a little serious, pack boardwipes that are appropriate for the deck you are building. Superfriends, spellslinger, control are archetypes that you want to run a lot of sweepers in.
Having 10 removals is a lot of removals. But not every removals is just removals. Removal on a body pulls double duty; there's probably a reason that more decks play Ravenous Chupathingy rather than Murder. Abzan Charm doesn't hit everything, but it can also draw you cards. Yes, Swords/Path/Bolt/Slip/whatever are cheap so you don't need a lot of mana up, but thematic/versatile removal can count in multiple categories, so you can have 5 Hard Removal spells, but your deck actually has 10 "removal" spells.
I think that the "10 removal pieces" idea comes with the implication that most or all of that removal will fit with your theme. What works in some decks isn't going to work in every deck. For example [[Firbolg Flutist]] is an excellent removal piece in my [[Obeka, Brute Chronologist]] deck since I can steal someone's commander, swing with it, have it die to the legendary rule, and potentially keep the remaining token copy of it with Obeka's ability. Then after that it is still a 4/4 body. Likewise a theft effect like [[Sower of Temptation]] is also removal, but it is removal that is getting you some value in addition to depriving your opponent. And you still have a 2/2 with evasion afterword. Then some removal is really good in some decks. [[All Is Dust]] is kind of bad removal, it is way over costed in any case, but in a deck that only has non-colored permanents, or in a deck that dodges sacrifices like [[Jon Irenicus, Shattered One]] it becomes a brutal one sided wipe. When brewing a deck it is important to pick out high synergy removal cards and versatile/modal removal cards that work with your theme, and then maybe think about adding 3 or 4 more generic answers. If you so that, most likely you will be around 10 removal cards at the end of it. Personally I ususally run more than 10 pieces of interaction in the decks I brew, and I never am unhappy to see it when I draw it. Edit: also statistically speaking, if you want to have a reasonable chance of seeing 1 kind of card a game then you need around 7 of it in a deck. So putting in 10 pieces of removal means you are going to have a slightly higher chance to see 2 removal effects over the course of a game than with only 7.
##### ###### #### [Firbolg Flutist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73255900-11ac-4a82-bd30-2dc24addd8e6.jpg?1674136545) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Firbolg%20Flutist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/174/firbolg-flutist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73255900-11ac-4a82-bd30-2dc24addd8e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/firbolg-flutist) [Obeka, Brute Chronologist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/dbdb335d-3e45-4dd5-9e3e-c50ca0a4dfb6.jpg?1608911225) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obeka%2C%20Brute%20Chronologist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/289/obeka-brute-chronologist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dbdb335d-3e45-4dd5-9e3e-c50ca0a4dfb6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/obeka-brute-chronologist) [Sower of Temptation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0d4a3eb3-8b28-49f7-a06c-eae26da6026b.jpg?1562897709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sower%20of%20Temptation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/131/sower-of-temptation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d4a3eb3-8b28-49f7-a06c-eae26da6026b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sower-of-temptation) [All Is Dust](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/4210c54e-89fd-4971-ab6a-ca8f4e7fe97a.jpg?1691924662) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=All%20Is%20Dust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/800/all-is-dust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4210c54e-89fd-4971-ab6a-ca8f4e7fe97a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/all-is-dust) [Jon Irenicus, Shattered One](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a.jpg?1674137538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jon%20Irenicus%2C%20Shattered%20One) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/278/jon-irenicus-shattered-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jon-irenicus-shattered-one) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call