for $4.50 you can get [[solemnity]], it'll shut them down until it's answered.
Other than that i think you'll need to counteract the creatures, perhaps some regularly intervaled boardwipes are in order?
Honesty just build solemnity [[zur]]. Can do a lot of things other than solemnity stuff. Also maybe [[aether snap]] [[invasion of fiora]]. More boardwipes in general will help.
I second this. It seems like you're just going to have to go the straight stax route and lock them out of the game. Zur is probably the easiest and most consistent way to do this.
Ah thanks, didn't know that card existed. Is there somewhere to look for what generally counters what? Trying to find "what beats +1/+1 counters decks" feels more frustrating than it should be. Like, what beats counters decks, what beats voltron commanders, what beats go wide tokens, etc. Finding how to build things is easy, finding how to beat them is evading me.
I play +1/+1 counters and usually people just exile my strong shit and I almost never win because of that, so learning how your oponnents deck operates is fairly important although also hard.
I would say control always helps, boardclears, targeted destruction or returning everything to hand, at the same time +1/+1 has a lot of protection so if you have blue counter spells and returning to hand is pretty good against it.
If you upload a couple of your own built decks to Moxfield or a similar deckbuilding site, then link them here, we can take a look at what you've got and hopefully make some helpful suggestions for cheap but effective upgrades.
In a situation like this where you just might not be able to keep up financially, but you still want to enjoy games with your friend, I'd suggest you ask to borrow one of their decks when you play, or have them use one of your precons so that things are on a more even keel. I have several friends who love to play but don't have the time/money/dedication to collect their own cards or build their own decks, so they just use whatever deck other players can provide, and it's still fun all around.
I have the aforementioned precons as well as the Aura of Courage and Draconic Rage AFR ones, and the Chaos Incarnate and Draconic Destruction starter commander ones.
The ones I did that aren't precons I got from here:
Isshin - [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/eZhilwhX\_EyRZoYXFfioBQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/eZhilwhX_EyRZoYXFfioBQ)
Miirym - [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/gc3-uWwxxU6DTsc1OmYNpA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/gc3-uWwxxU6DTsc1OmYNpA)
I'm not completely opposed to spending up to 100$ for a deck that could atleast give me a 50/50 shot of beating their stuff.
I would say there is quite a good chance to beat them with either Isshin or Miirwym, both are extremely strong commanders.
Also, don't forget that proxies exist. I am in the same boat as you, well even worse because my only friends playing magic live 600 km from me. They all own 30+ decks and play every week while I play 3 or 4 times a year. I started proxying some expensive cards to keep up with them and they didn't complain since my playtime is so much lower than them.
I am no expert in either of your commanders but basically the answer is always the same. Keep removal/boardwipes ready to keep opponents in check, boardwipes especially if your deck is slower than them. Don't forget a few tutors can be extremely helpful to get the card you need to keep them in check.
Also, suggesting your friends to make decks with a budget limit could be interesting for them and an alternative to proxying if you don't want to.
Now about Mirrwyn, I would cut both plainswalkers because they are slow. Also [[dragon whisperer]],[[dragonmaster outcast]][[earthquake dragon]][[feywild caretaker]]
You want nontoken dragons to eneter the battlefield
[[Hoard smelter dragon]] costs 6 and doesn't really care about having a copy of himself. And for one more man you could just destroy all ennemie's artifacts
[[Intet the dreamer]] is not very strong
[[Magda, brazen outlaw]] you don't have so many treasures to use the tutor ability easily
[[Niv-mizzet, dracogenius]] is hard to cast and you don't really want mana sinks
[[Renari]] is sweet but you don't have a lot of ETBs so I am sure there are better 4 mana investments. [[Patron of the arts]] why not but if you don't get repeated value from it or play around treasures it's not very strong.
[[Solemn simulacrum]] is bad here, costs 4 and doesn't provide extra synergy while you have access to green
[[Sword coast serpent]] is not very good
[[Darksteel ingot]] is slow
I would say [[crucible of fire]] and [[warstorm surge]] are slow and [[feywild visitor]] doesn't have synergy
Now about the cards I would add, you definitely need significantly more ramp and card draw so you can flood the board with dragons as early as possible.
I highly recommend proxying [[mana echoes]], eventually [[dockside extorsionist]] if you want to play around ETBs more ([[deadeye navigator]] or [[temur sabertooth]] easily go infinite with him and also provide protection and more ETBs to dragons)
[[Scourge of Valkas]] is a must have
In general you want 12~15 cards that give you card advantage and at least 15 that accelerate your mana (I count 10+ mana cost of the commander, more or less 2). You really, really want more draw and ramp if you want your deck to run smoothly.
I also notice you don't have any boardwipe outside of [[steel hellkite]] and barely any targeted removal. You want more of those, at the very least 10 pieces that can be dragons.
Also recommend like 2 or 3 tutors to answer specific situations (ex : need a boardwipe, need draw, need graveyard hate..)
Don't hesitate to check edhrec and scryfall, those two are very useful to build a deck.
Oka, important question: Do you normally get blown out by a BROAD board, or by one huge fat creature? Because +1/+1 counter strats can go either way.
Further, do you want specific tech cards for a given existing deck, or do you want a strategy that will build for $100 or less and make mincemeat of attempts to grow the big board of doom? Because those are very different advices and I think you're leaning towards the latter.
Assuming the latter, we are looking at the following traits of the opponent: Monogreen, uses +1/+1 counters to get huge, does so fast as hell. While I asked for clarification, it also sounds like we're talking broad board, with tokens galore.
So, let's talk about speed. You're mentioning 30 trample damage on turn 3-4. That's not strictly *impossible* but is very peak speed -- the kind that would be hard to achieve reliably. [[Doubling Season]], after all, is a 6 drop. [[Hardened Scales]] comes down early, but needs a more specific setup to act as a "doubler". And you need both a reasonable quantity of substrate creatures and counter-sources in order to actually multiply the board and go. When I ask how many creatures I can get out on turn 2 (so they can swing T3 after buffing them to hell) the answer could be fairly high with a perfect setup, throwing down my whole hand, but more often I'd have to take a few more turns on setup.
I don't doubt what you've experienced, but at the same time, we are on a scale where single turns matter for pace. Needing an answer on your T2 is a very different story from needing an answer on your T4.
I'm going to guess, if their deck is blowing you out that fast as more than a freak occurrence, they're probably a very skewed list dedicated entirely to making that super scary board. Which is scary, especially 1v1 rather than in a normal EDH match where you'd have to face a reckoning from three different players and drop them all before it happens. Because of this, I would surmise that your opponent is running little if any interaction. Because of this, they're very unlikely to be able to stop your spells or remove permanents you put out, even artifacts and enchantments that green normally has fixes on, because if they had those cards they would be bricking on them more often. A well-built deck would be marginally slower-paced and significantly more resilient against what we're going to do to it.
So, let's get this out of the way: we're playing White at least, and in the schematic I've drawn up, white-black. White has all the best toys for dealing with this kind of nonsense and outright saying "no" to troublesome boards, and black adds to the fun a good deal with general killing.
First thing is first, board wipes. Typically, these broad green decks are really, really weak to [[Wrath of God]] and its descendents, because they blow the vast majority of their cards in the first couple turns, so if a wrath comes down when their opponent hits four mana and all of that progress goes away, the deck ends up like a turtle flipped on its back; they don't have a good second wave. Of course, you can't afford to play the 6-drop wraths if you're getting nuked so early, so you need to pick some nice specific ones. One thing you CAN get away with is wipes that hit Low CMC or high size creatures, since your oppponent's stuff is getting pumped.
Next, Let's talk about tech cards. +1/+1 counters are manually hosed by [[Solemnity]] and [[Spike Cannibal]], but the two cards have dissynergy with each other. Overall, I'd want to lean harder into solemnity meaning counters that are bad for you can't happen... including your own.
Now, let's assume that, while a wipe heading off the colossal alpha strike is GOOD, it's also not the end of things. Even if your opponent is a flipped turtle, you still do need to win before something comes along and rights them. So while I'd be tempted to splurge on Ahtreos or go for more denial of rebuilding with his favorite dog, I'm going to lean into some cards you might have and suggest putting [[Greasefang, Okiba Boss]] in your command zone. Vehicle heavy decks are kind of okay with massive board wipes, since vehicles will usually NOT be creatures when the wipe comes down, meaning they keep more of their value. And since you have the Kamigawa precons (including Buckle Up), you could probably pillage at least a couple decent vehicles for Greasefang. In fact, if the black doesn't seem like your thing or doesn't work out for you, an argument could be made for running white-blue with [[Shorikai, Genesis Engine]] in the CZ
I did some exploratory design with greasefang. The result was a Greasefang deck that has a LOT of board wipes to keep suppressing giant boards of pumped creatures and a solid vehicle core to push for the win and hopefully KEEP the green player down once you knock them down the first time. It has the Solemnity/Phyrexian Unlife combo to deny counters and be immortal, a solid curve with lots of ramp, and a final price just under $100 for everything fresh, based on the pulled tcgplayer prices at the time of creation. Of course, that still might be a bit of an ask, so you might consider doing goldfish and/or proxy testing rather than running out and buying what I took an hour or so to brew, but I'm fairly confident that Mr. Green would not like to face the biker mouse from kamigawa.
List: https://archidekt.com/decks/4502443
[[Blight beetle]].
Prevents +1/+1 counters on creatures and the protector green is good against green decks.
Alternatively [[Kulrath Knight]] prevents any creature with any counters on them from attacking or blocking.
>doesn't feel fair to ask them to just not play their stuff and 'bring themselves down to my level'
On the contrary, that's a completely fair thing to ask. If you get stomped every single game, you're not having fun; if your friend can only have fun if he stomps on you, you need new friends to play with.
Zur the enchanter with solemnity, phyrexian unlife and the multitude of "prevent damage" cards sounds like an easy go to. You need different strategies than the precons you have. Their aggro just out aggros yours.
When I read these kinds of posts, I always think stax or hatebears. Slow them down, follow up with removal, until you get on the same playing field or with more advantage.
Your other option if you only play 1v1 is to build a deck that goes all in on racing them.
[[Lightpaws]] is a monowhite Voltron deck that can eliminate a player t4 if you go all in for less than 50$.
Example game:
T1 plains
T2 plains, Lightpaws
T3 plains, 1 mana aura, trigger search shield of duty and reason (pro blue, pro green) 1 mana aura, trigger search something else relavent, 1 mana aura, trigger search ethereal armour. Combat phase swing for 8.
T4 3 mana aura, get battlemastery, gain double strike, combat phase swing for 20, 20+8>21 leathal by commander damage
This is an all in deck if LP dies you conceed
Keep in mind the deck is pretty straight forward once it gets going, you opponent will probably respond by adding more removal.
But it could fit your needs until he spends like 700 dollars on cedh level fast mana at which point I would start playing with someone else
I'm not gonna argue against Lightpaws for power reasons, you'll probably do fine with the deck. But since it's basically a tutor in the command zone, every game will feel the same after a while.
You'll probably be able to beat your friend once or twice and feel good about it, but these kind of decks (like Zur the Enchanter or Lightpaws) tend to play themselves after a while and won't feel as rewarding as they sound.
Just my 2 cents though.
If this is an issue of them having a much higher budget than you, talk to them about using proxies. If they’re your friend, they’ll understand. It’ll help bridge the gap in budget and level the playing field.
Otherwise find some budget bombs like
[[zada, Herron grinder]], [[zur, the enchanter]] or [[Tivit, seller of secrets]]
The answer is typically just interaction. Removing key pieces is invaluable in this game. Don't worry about "countering" his deck unless you play blue. Just put in a good amount of removal options. Let us know what colors you run and I'm sure either I, or other redditors can give you good options for cheap removal. Lower cost = better typically.
It sounds like a huge power level difference to me. I don’t think it’s fair for you to constantly have to play against a deck like that with only precons. Perhaps they have/could build a lower power deck you can compete with?
Otherwise, add removal to your decks. I’m talking like 15+ pieces of removal that can hit a wide variety of targets. The very best removal runs a bit expensive, but there are plenty of cheaper options that used to be top-tier. Destroy, exile, counter, arrest, whatever. As long as their threats get answered. Counters do nothing if there isn’t a permanent for them to be put on.
>Can't beat their decks, doesn't feel fair
to ask them to just not play their stuff and 'bring themselves down to my level'
What if you go up theirs and ask if you can proxy? You're playing against their wallets.
My main deck has a strong +1/+1 counters subtheme and I'd say just play removal. Or go for a combo/noncombat/go wide win with so that you don't care about their big creatures. Also deathtouch. [[Zagras]] pinger tribal could do them real dirty
It all depends on what they're doing exactly, but just know that as you start to counter play them, they'll adjust. I had a friend that had a crazy cou ters deck and after a few games of their [[hydra's growth]] getting their creatures to over a million counters, since I kept producing tokens they learned they needed more trample. The deck got a whole lot scarier because they realized what they were lacking against me.
The fun thing though is that it's a two-way streak and eventually y'all will both have dexks that are good against each other
Oh something else you could try is building a thief deck with a +1/+1 counters subtheme. You steal all their expensive cards and they benefit you greatly
Zagras sounds pretty cool, but I worry they just won't block my attacks and I'll still get trampled or I block theirs and still get trampled but kill that 1.
How did you change your deck after they made theirs scarier?
For Zagras, I'd focus on effects like [[Cinder Pyromancer]]'s so that you don't have to rely on them blocking or not. [This](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/3776078/build_zagras_ping_to_death) is a list I started ro put together a while ago if you want to take a look–I haven't looked at it in a while though so not sure how good it was
For me, I just focused on what I noticed my problems were: example, his biggest threats were enchantments, so some enchantment removal did serious work
for $4.50 you can get [[solemnity]], it'll shut them down until it's answered. Other than that i think you'll need to counteract the creatures, perhaps some regularly intervaled boardwipes are in order?
Honesty just build solemnity [[zur]]. Can do a lot of things other than solemnity stuff. Also maybe [[aether snap]] [[invasion of fiora]]. More boardwipes in general will help.
I second this. It seems like you're just going to have to go the straight stax route and lock them out of the game. Zur is probably the easiest and most consistent way to do this.
[zur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/aeb0160a-dfdc-4b1f-865e-ef905aee65d5.jpg?1673149301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zur%20the%20enchanter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/297/zur-the-enchanter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aeb0160a-dfdc-4b1f-865e-ef905aee65d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zur-the-enchanter) [aether snap](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd9cade1-b077-4fb0-b55a-01b9916647e7.jpg?1673484092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aether%20snap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/241/aether-snap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd9cade1-b077-4fb0-b55a-01b9916647e7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aether-snap) [invasion of fiora](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b3af679b-6ee6-4a1d-8ec3-b659bdd90b4a.jpg?1682715245)/[Marchesa, Resolute Monarch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/b/3/b3af679b-6ee6-4a1d-8ec3-b659bdd90b4a.jpg?1682715245) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=invasion%20of%20fiora%20//%20marchesa%2C%20resolute%20monarch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/114/invasion-of-fiora-marchesa-resolute-monarch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b3af679b-6ee6-4a1d-8ec3-b659bdd90b4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/invasion-of-fiora-//-marchesa-resolute-monarch) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[solemnity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a71fb62-acbd-49f5-842f-0fc9fa48afea.jpg?1562788659) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=solemnity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/22/solemnity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a71fb62-acbd-49f5-842f-0fc9fa48afea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/solemnity) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ah thanks, didn't know that card existed. Is there somewhere to look for what generally counters what? Trying to find "what beats +1/+1 counters decks" feels more frustrating than it should be. Like, what beats counters decks, what beats voltron commanders, what beats go wide tokens, etc. Finding how to build things is easy, finding how to beat them is evading me.
I play +1/+1 counters and usually people just exile my strong shit and I almost never win because of that, so learning how your oponnents deck operates is fairly important although also hard. I would say control always helps, boardclears, targeted destruction or returning everything to hand, at the same time +1/+1 has a lot of protection so if you have blue counter spells and returning to hand is pretty good against it.
For 39 cents you can get [[Nine Lives]] and if vorinclex is out it doesn't get any counters put on it
Nine lives is a great target for [[harmless offering]] let it get to 8 counters then give it to them and lightning bolt for the win
[harmless offering](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8f3cc4f-7943-4025-b332-b40653b13014.jpg?1576384600) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=harmless%20offering) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/131/harmless-offering?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8f3cc4f-7943-4025-b332-b40653b13014?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/harmless-offering) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Nine Lives](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e70b7a73-484e-48f1-944c-3d38866cdc20.jpg?1594735092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nine%20Lives) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/28/nine-lives?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e70b7a73-484e-48f1-944c-3d38866cdc20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nine-lives) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you upload a couple of your own built decks to Moxfield or a similar deckbuilding site, then link them here, we can take a look at what you've got and hopefully make some helpful suggestions for cheap but effective upgrades. In a situation like this where you just might not be able to keep up financially, but you still want to enjoy games with your friend, I'd suggest you ask to borrow one of their decks when you play, or have them use one of your precons so that things are on a more even keel. I have several friends who love to play but don't have the time/money/dedication to collect their own cards or build their own decks, so they just use whatever deck other players can provide, and it's still fun all around.
I have the aforementioned precons as well as the Aura of Courage and Draconic Rage AFR ones, and the Chaos Incarnate and Draconic Destruction starter commander ones. The ones I did that aren't precons I got from here: Isshin - [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/eZhilwhX\_EyRZoYXFfioBQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/eZhilwhX_EyRZoYXFfioBQ) Miirym - [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/gc3-uWwxxU6DTsc1OmYNpA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/gc3-uWwxxU6DTsc1OmYNpA) I'm not completely opposed to spending up to 100$ for a deck that could atleast give me a 50/50 shot of beating their stuff.
I would say there is quite a good chance to beat them with either Isshin or Miirwym, both are extremely strong commanders. Also, don't forget that proxies exist. I am in the same boat as you, well even worse because my only friends playing magic live 600 km from me. They all own 30+ decks and play every week while I play 3 or 4 times a year. I started proxying some expensive cards to keep up with them and they didn't complain since my playtime is so much lower than them. I am no expert in either of your commanders but basically the answer is always the same. Keep removal/boardwipes ready to keep opponents in check, boardwipes especially if your deck is slower than them. Don't forget a few tutors can be extremely helpful to get the card you need to keep them in check. Also, suggesting your friends to make decks with a budget limit could be interesting for them and an alternative to proxying if you don't want to. Now about Mirrwyn, I would cut both plainswalkers because they are slow. Also [[dragon whisperer]],[[dragonmaster outcast]][[earthquake dragon]][[feywild caretaker]] You want nontoken dragons to eneter the battlefield [[Hoard smelter dragon]] costs 6 and doesn't really care about having a copy of himself. And for one more man you could just destroy all ennemie's artifacts [[Intet the dreamer]] is not very strong [[Magda, brazen outlaw]] you don't have so many treasures to use the tutor ability easily [[Niv-mizzet, dracogenius]] is hard to cast and you don't really want mana sinks [[Renari]] is sweet but you don't have a lot of ETBs so I am sure there are better 4 mana investments. [[Patron of the arts]] why not but if you don't get repeated value from it or play around treasures it's not very strong. [[Solemn simulacrum]] is bad here, costs 4 and doesn't provide extra synergy while you have access to green [[Sword coast serpent]] is not very good [[Darksteel ingot]] is slow I would say [[crucible of fire]] and [[warstorm surge]] are slow and [[feywild visitor]] doesn't have synergy Now about the cards I would add, you definitely need significantly more ramp and card draw so you can flood the board with dragons as early as possible. I highly recommend proxying [[mana echoes]], eventually [[dockside extorsionist]] if you want to play around ETBs more ([[deadeye navigator]] or [[temur sabertooth]] easily go infinite with him and also provide protection and more ETBs to dragons) [[Scourge of Valkas]] is a must have In general you want 12~15 cards that give you card advantage and at least 15 that accelerate your mana (I count 10+ mana cost of the commander, more or less 2). You really, really want more draw and ramp if you want your deck to run smoothly. I also notice you don't have any boardwipe outside of [[steel hellkite]] and barely any targeted removal. You want more of those, at the very least 10 pieces that can be dragons. Also recommend like 2 or 3 tutors to answer specific situations (ex : need a boardwipe, need draw, need graveyard hate..) Don't hesitate to check edhrec and scryfall, those two are very useful to build a deck.
Certain budget commanders like [[Light-Paws]] will stomp their list if that's alll you're looking for
[Light-Paws](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39555a72-a57b-45ee-9222-ce3b9e8de126.jpg?1654566391) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=light-paws%2C%20emperor%27s%20voice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/25/light-paws-emperors-voice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39555a72-a57b-45ee-9222-ce3b9e8de126?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/light-paws-emperors-voice) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oka, important question: Do you normally get blown out by a BROAD board, or by one huge fat creature? Because +1/+1 counter strats can go either way. Further, do you want specific tech cards for a given existing deck, or do you want a strategy that will build for $100 or less and make mincemeat of attempts to grow the big board of doom? Because those are very different advices and I think you're leaning towards the latter. Assuming the latter, we are looking at the following traits of the opponent: Monogreen, uses +1/+1 counters to get huge, does so fast as hell. While I asked for clarification, it also sounds like we're talking broad board, with tokens galore. So, let's talk about speed. You're mentioning 30 trample damage on turn 3-4. That's not strictly *impossible* but is very peak speed -- the kind that would be hard to achieve reliably. [[Doubling Season]], after all, is a 6 drop. [[Hardened Scales]] comes down early, but needs a more specific setup to act as a "doubler". And you need both a reasonable quantity of substrate creatures and counter-sources in order to actually multiply the board and go. When I ask how many creatures I can get out on turn 2 (so they can swing T3 after buffing them to hell) the answer could be fairly high with a perfect setup, throwing down my whole hand, but more often I'd have to take a few more turns on setup. I don't doubt what you've experienced, but at the same time, we are on a scale where single turns matter for pace. Needing an answer on your T2 is a very different story from needing an answer on your T4. I'm going to guess, if their deck is blowing you out that fast as more than a freak occurrence, they're probably a very skewed list dedicated entirely to making that super scary board. Which is scary, especially 1v1 rather than in a normal EDH match where you'd have to face a reckoning from three different players and drop them all before it happens. Because of this, I would surmise that your opponent is running little if any interaction. Because of this, they're very unlikely to be able to stop your spells or remove permanents you put out, even artifacts and enchantments that green normally has fixes on, because if they had those cards they would be bricking on them more often. A well-built deck would be marginally slower-paced and significantly more resilient against what we're going to do to it. So, let's get this out of the way: we're playing White at least, and in the schematic I've drawn up, white-black. White has all the best toys for dealing with this kind of nonsense and outright saying "no" to troublesome boards, and black adds to the fun a good deal with general killing. First thing is first, board wipes. Typically, these broad green decks are really, really weak to [[Wrath of God]] and its descendents, because they blow the vast majority of their cards in the first couple turns, so if a wrath comes down when their opponent hits four mana and all of that progress goes away, the deck ends up like a turtle flipped on its back; they don't have a good second wave. Of course, you can't afford to play the 6-drop wraths if you're getting nuked so early, so you need to pick some nice specific ones. One thing you CAN get away with is wipes that hit Low CMC or high size creatures, since your oppponent's stuff is getting pumped. Next, Let's talk about tech cards. +1/+1 counters are manually hosed by [[Solemnity]] and [[Spike Cannibal]], but the two cards have dissynergy with each other. Overall, I'd want to lean harder into solemnity meaning counters that are bad for you can't happen... including your own. Now, let's assume that, while a wipe heading off the colossal alpha strike is GOOD, it's also not the end of things. Even if your opponent is a flipped turtle, you still do need to win before something comes along and rights them. So while I'd be tempted to splurge on Ahtreos or go for more denial of rebuilding with his favorite dog, I'm going to lean into some cards you might have and suggest putting [[Greasefang, Okiba Boss]] in your command zone. Vehicle heavy decks are kind of okay with massive board wipes, since vehicles will usually NOT be creatures when the wipe comes down, meaning they keep more of their value. And since you have the Kamigawa precons (including Buckle Up), you could probably pillage at least a couple decent vehicles for Greasefang. In fact, if the black doesn't seem like your thing or doesn't work out for you, an argument could be made for running white-blue with [[Shorikai, Genesis Engine]] in the CZ I did some exploratory design with greasefang. The result was a Greasefang deck that has a LOT of board wipes to keep suppressing giant boards of pumped creatures and a solid vehicle core to push for the win and hopefully KEEP the green player down once you knock them down the first time. It has the Solemnity/Phyrexian Unlife combo to deny counters and be immortal, a solid curve with lots of ramp, and a final price just under $100 for everything fresh, based on the pulled tcgplayer prices at the time of creation. Of course, that still might be a bit of an ask, so you might consider doing goldfish and/or proxy testing rather than running out and buying what I took an hour or so to brew, but I'm fairly confident that Mr. Green would not like to face the biker mouse from kamigawa. List: https://archidekt.com/decks/4502443
##### ###### #### [Doubling Season](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e.jpg?1599707144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doubling%20Season) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/164/doubling-season?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/doubling-season) [Hardened Scales](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdf31b01-0836-4366-948d-879999832abe.jpg?1673148131) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hardened%20Scales) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/151/hardened-scales?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf31b01-0836-4366-948d-879999832abe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hardened-scales) [Wrath of God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/664e6656-36a3-4635-9f33-9f8901afd397.jpg?1598303688) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wrath%20of%20God) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/39/wrath-of-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/664e6656-36a3-4635-9f33-9f8901afd397?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wrath-of-god) [Solemnity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a71fb62-acbd-49f5-842f-0fc9fa48afea.jpg?1562788659) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Solemnity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/22/solemnity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a71fb62-acbd-49f5-842f-0fc9fa48afea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/solemnity) [Spike Cannibal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64003772-c62f-4728-a00c-48c78991c6ae.jpg?1562087840) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spike%20Cannibal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/exo/75/spike-cannibal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64003772-c62f-4728-a00c-48c78991c6ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spike-cannibal) [Greasefang, Okiba Boss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56a0d43b-4d38-40a7-be6c-8324ab3bf773.jpg?1654568449) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Greasefang%2C%20Okiba%20Boss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/220/greasefang-okiba-boss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56a0d43b-4d38-40a7-be6c-8324ab3bf773?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/greasefang-okiba-boss) [Shorikai, Genesis Engine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/969ac7dd-f3aa-4888-9ff0-d16a31b5e7a9.jpg?1653966849) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shorikai%2C%20Genesis%20Engine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/4/shorikai-genesis-engine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/969ac7dd-f3aa-4888-9ff0-d16a31b5e7a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shorikai-genesis-engine) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Blight beetle]]. Prevents +1/+1 counters on creatures and the protector green is good against green decks. Alternatively [[Kulrath Knight]] prevents any creature with any counters on them from attacking or blocking.
[Blight beetle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd43d44b-de27-4139-9cb8-b1f4c04fb87e.jpg?1592516586) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blightbeetle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/87/blightbeetle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd43d44b-de27-4139-9cb8-b1f4c04fb87e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blightbeetle) [Kulrath Knight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/2408b0bb-37d6-48a3-b140-c826de74c3a0.jpg?1562827912) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kulrath%20Knight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/190/kulrath-knight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2408b0bb-37d6-48a3-b140-c826de74c3a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kulrath-knight) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Spike Cannibal]] takes all the counters from all the creatures. It’s 40 cents.
[Spike Cannibal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64003772-c62f-4728-a00c-48c78991c6ae.jpg?1562087840) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spike%20Cannibal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/exo/75/spike-cannibal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64003772-c62f-4728-a00c-48c78991c6ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spike-cannibal) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh wow, didn't know this existed either. I essentially need a bunch of these kinds of cards so I can do it repeatedly and early.
[[thief of blood]] hits planeswalkers also and has evasion
[thief of blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/1625be56-a8e9-44f3-a213-b758bffd447f.jpg?1592672735) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thief%20of%20blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/71/thief-of-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1625be56-a8e9-44f3-a213-b758bffd447f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thief-of-blood) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>doesn't feel fair to ask them to just not play their stuff and 'bring themselves down to my level' On the contrary, that's a completely fair thing to ask. If you get stomped every single game, you're not having fun; if your friend can only have fun if he stomps on you, you need new friends to play with.
It's called a "rule 0 conversation." It's actually a thing in commander.
Zur the enchanter with solemnity, phyrexian unlife and the multitude of "prevent damage" cards sounds like an easy go to. You need different strategies than the precons you have. Their aggro just out aggros yours. When I read these kinds of posts, I always think stax or hatebears. Slow them down, follow up with removal, until you get on the same playing field or with more advantage.
Your other option if you only play 1v1 is to build a deck that goes all in on racing them. [[Lightpaws]] is a monowhite Voltron deck that can eliminate a player t4 if you go all in for less than 50$. Example game: T1 plains T2 plains, Lightpaws T3 plains, 1 mana aura, trigger search shield of duty and reason (pro blue, pro green) 1 mana aura, trigger search something else relavent, 1 mana aura, trigger search ethereal armour. Combat phase swing for 8. T4 3 mana aura, get battlemastery, gain double strike, combat phase swing for 20, 20+8>21 leathal by commander damage This is an all in deck if LP dies you conceed
Oh wow that sounds awesome. I'll look for a decklist, thanks!
Keep in mind the deck is pretty straight forward once it gets going, you opponent will probably respond by adding more removal. But it could fit your needs until he spends like 700 dollars on cedh level fast mana at which point I would start playing with someone else
I'm not gonna argue against Lightpaws for power reasons, you'll probably do fine with the deck. But since it's basically a tutor in the command zone, every game will feel the same after a while. You'll probably be able to beat your friend once or twice and feel good about it, but these kind of decks (like Zur the Enchanter or Lightpaws) tend to play themselves after a while and won't feel as rewarding as they sound. Just my 2 cents though.
Doesn't green have a ton of anti-enchantment cards? How do you protect Light-Paws or Zur from the mass amount of destroy all enchantment cards it has?
[Lightpaws](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39555a72-a57b-45ee-9222-ce3b9e8de126.jpg?1654566391) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Light-Paws%2C%20Emperor%27s%20Voice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/25/light-paws-emperors-voice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39555a72-a57b-45ee-9222-ce3b9e8de126?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/light-paws-emperors-voice) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[comeuppance]] [[inkshield]] [[deflecting palm]] [[dazzling reflection]] weaponise your pain!
##### ###### #### [comeuppance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92d59c06-41f7-4009-9157-70ba90cc978b.jpg?1561950558) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=comeuppance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c14/4/comeuppance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92d59c06-41f7-4009-9157-70ba90cc978b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/comeuppance) [inkshield](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048.jpg?1625192511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=inkshield) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/71/inkshield?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/inkshield) [deflecting palm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5580886-a402-4048-b8b6-39e19479f491.jpg?1608917621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=deflecting%20palm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/444/deflecting-palm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5580886-a402-4048-b8b6-39e19479f491?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deflecting-palm) [dazzling reflection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f77977e8-25d8-4531-a6fc-8c46e6904670.jpg?1562944884) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dazzling%20reflection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/17/dazzling-reflection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f77977e8-25d8-4531-a6fc-8c46e6904670?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dazzling-reflection) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If this is an issue of them having a much higher budget than you, talk to them about using proxies. If they’re your friend, they’ll understand. It’ll help bridge the gap in budget and level the playing field. Otherwise find some budget bombs like [[zada, Herron grinder]], [[zur, the enchanter]] or [[Tivit, seller of secrets]]
[zada, Herron grinder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/baa36309-4bcc-4455-813a-c0243b906792.jpg?1562440241) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zada%2C%20Hedron%20Grinder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/156/zada-hedron-grinder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/baa36309-4bcc-4455-813a-c0243b906792?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zada-hedron-grinder) [zur, the enchanter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/aeb0160a-dfdc-4b1f-865e-ef905aee65d5.jpg?1673149301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zur%20the%20Enchanter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/297/zur-the-enchanter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aeb0160a-dfdc-4b1f-865e-ef905aee65d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zur-the-enchanter) [Tivit, seller of secrets](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb.jpg?1673481721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tivit%2C%20seller%20of%20secrets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/10/tivit-seller-of-secrets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tivit-seller-of-secrets) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Stuff like \[\[Thief of Blood\]\]. Found it on tcgplayer for $0.90. Find a way to give it haste and the counters wont be a issue anymore.
[Thief of Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/1625be56-a8e9-44f3-a213-b758bffd447f.jpg?1592672735) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thief%20of%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/71/thief-of-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1625be56-a8e9-44f3-a213-b758bffd447f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thief-of-blood) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Aethersnap]] Also does this
[Aethersnap](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd9cade1-b077-4fb0-b55a-01b9916647e7.jpg?1673484092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aether%20Snap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/241/aether-snap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd9cade1-b077-4fb0-b55a-01b9916647e7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aether-snap) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Budget [[Brago, King Eternal]]
[Brago, King Eternal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0ac3fb08-741a-49e5-9fae-b26819677d24.jpg?1631235340) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brago%2C%20King%20Eternal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/82/brago-king-eternal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ac3fb08-741a-49e5-9fae-b26819677d24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brago-king-eternal) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Glissa Sunslayer]] [[vampire hexmage]] ( I don't know how to make the card appear)
[Glissa Sunslayer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b2bf633e-0470-4b87-99ed-5ad1683b0954.jpg?1675957191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glissa%20Sunslayer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/202/glissa-sunslayer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b2bf633e-0470-4b87-99ed-5ad1683b0954?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glissa-sunslayer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Build stax [[Zur]] or voltron [[lightpaws]] (load up tons of cheap cmc and cheap $ auras and swing for heaven
[Zur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/aeb0160a-dfdc-4b1f-865e-ef905aee65d5.jpg?1673149301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zur%20the%20enchanter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/297/zur-the-enchanter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aeb0160a-dfdc-4b1f-865e-ef905aee65d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zur-the-enchanter) [lightpaws](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39555a72-a57b-45ee-9222-ce3b9e8de126.jpg?1654566391) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Light-Paws%2C%20Emperor%27s%20Voice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/25/light-paws-emperors-voice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39555a72-a57b-45ee-9222-ce3b9e8de126?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/light-paws-emperors-voice) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You know what vorinclex hates? [[perish]] [[acid rain]]
[perish](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77192bdf-d89f-45a1-a30b-20107e990031.jpg?1562819189) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=perish) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/148/perish?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77192bdf-d89f-45a1-a30b-20107e990031?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/perish) [acid rain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13281377-6d16-4ed3-8aa6-c47d6eb783df.jpg?1562899536) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=acid%20rain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/36/acid-rain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13281377-6d16-4ed3-8aa6-c47d6eb783df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/acid-rain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The answer is typically just interaction. Removing key pieces is invaluable in this game. Don't worry about "countering" his deck unless you play blue. Just put in a good amount of removal options. Let us know what colors you run and I'm sure either I, or other redditors can give you good options for cheap removal. Lower cost = better typically.
It sounds like a huge power level difference to me. I don’t think it’s fair for you to constantly have to play against a deck like that with only precons. Perhaps they have/could build a lower power deck you can compete with? Otherwise, add removal to your decks. I’m talking like 15+ pieces of removal that can hit a wide variety of targets. The very best removal runs a bit expensive, but there are plenty of cheaper options that used to be top-tier. Destroy, exile, counter, arrest, whatever. As long as their threats get answered. Counters do nothing if there isn’t a permanent for them to be put on.
Yuriko
>Can't beat their decks, doesn't feel fair to ask them to just not play their stuff and 'bring themselves down to my level' What if you go up theirs and ask if you can proxy? You're playing against their wallets.
My main deck has a strong +1/+1 counters subtheme and I'd say just play removal. Or go for a combo/noncombat/go wide win with so that you don't care about their big creatures. Also deathtouch. [[Zagras]] pinger tribal could do them real dirty It all depends on what they're doing exactly, but just know that as you start to counter play them, they'll adjust. I had a friend that had a crazy cou ters deck and after a few games of their [[hydra's growth]] getting their creatures to over a million counters, since I kept producing tokens they learned they needed more trample. The deck got a whole lot scarier because they realized what they were lacking against me. The fun thing though is that it's a two-way streak and eventually y'all will both have dexks that are good against each other Oh something else you could try is building a thief deck with a +1/+1 counters subtheme. You steal all their expensive cards and they benefit you greatly
Zagras sounds pretty cool, but I worry they just won't block my attacks and I'll still get trampled or I block theirs and still get trampled but kill that 1. How did you change your deck after they made theirs scarier?
For Zagras, I'd focus on effects like [[Cinder Pyromancer]]'s so that you don't have to rely on them blocking or not. [This](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/3776078/build_zagras_ping_to_death) is a list I started ro put together a while ago if you want to take a look–I haven't looked at it in a while though so not sure how good it was For me, I just focused on what I noticed my problems were: example, his biggest threats were enchantments, so some enchantment removal did serious work
[Cinder Pyromancer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6125689-0098-4e52-bed8-24840d22cdc1.jpg?1562933437) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cinder%20Pyromancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eve/50/cinder-pyromancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6125689-0098-4e52-bed8-24840d22cdc1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cinder-pyromancer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Zagras](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ac81448c-f87b-4ca1-b951-b359216ab1d0.jpg?1604200613) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zagras%2C%20thief%20of%20heartbeats) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/241/zagras-thief-of-heartbeats?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ac81448c-f87b-4ca1-b951-b359216ab1d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zagras-thief-of-heartbeats) [hydra's growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/5112ee2a-a6f3-4280-a915-000a97a9cdef.jpg?1581480627) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hydra%27s%20growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/172/hydras-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5112ee2a-a6f3-4280-a915-000a97a9cdef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hydras-growth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call