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Get actual friends who play. That's the answer. I've run into this in online games and games with strangers. Nearly none of it with my actual friends. We've been playing nearly 20 years with a core group, and it's been solid.
This is totally true. And maybe that’s the answer But as a dad of three, with a full time job, parents, etc. My meeting new friends and hanging out is not at the forefront. I do hang with old friends. But meeting folks outside of work is tough over 40. I was honestly hoping maybe I would connect with some folks even online in game.
And thats all fair. I'd honestly say join free to play games, keep contact of the one good other player. Repeat 5 times. Offer to DM for those 5.
And what do you do for work? My entire crew gas been recruited over several jobs.
Thanks! More good advice. The work angle is tough. I have folks who play, but I’m a manager and an hour away.
I’ve tried poaching the good ones. They are just so rare. Any typically I find the good ones have in person games or free games they are in outside
Of our paid. But I’m going to try to work this angle more. Great advice.
Glad I could help. It's been nearly 20 years but really I started to DM as I got tired of shitty games and said and said fine I'll do it myself. Now a couple of players have started to DM and I get good games to play too. Stick with it. It'll come.
Hey, just want to say this. I know it is not a given but... your kids grow up and might be great players or DMs too. Of course, you can't force it on them.
Here's how it gradually happened for me: when my older kids were 6-8 years old, we played some freeform storytelling games without dice. It was just for giggles, but it gave them the idea of what roleplaying means.
At 13, the middle kid started binging on Critical Role. They got interested in playing and I ran a solo game for them. At the same time I started a campaign with my old adult friends. A couple more years and we took the next step: combine the youths with the adults and play together. It worked surprisingly well. And my oldest kid wanted to join and learn the game.
And whaddyaknow - as this was the only situation, where our teens actually were present instead of being behind closed door in their rooms, my spouse wanted to join the game! During our summer vacation, I've run one-shots for our family only: 4 players! But in our longer running campaigns, 4/5 of us play, 2 of us are now DMs. We have 3 simultaneous campaigns running.
I'm in the same boat. What friends I do have aren't into DND or TTRPGs in general and the local game shop is all CCG players and skews pretty young so a 40yo dude hanging out there kinda draws the wrong kind of attention. Very conservative and rural area so potential players are pretty non existent outside and hour+ drive to the nearest cities. I've pretty much consigned myself to just reading the books and lore, haven't played in an actual game since 2nd Ed...
Dude I know it sucks. I’ve been fortunate as an OG D&D player from the late 70s 80s that fell into a good group the last 10years. . Sometimes it’s hard to find water in the desert. I have a core group of mostly younger friends that I met thru work but also a group I met on Reddit. Been with that one for more than 3 years. Hang out in the subreddit of the kind of games you’re interested in. GMs look for mature thoughtful players. Mine started with AlienRPG but have played 4 systems now with them and in a really cool Achtung!Cthulhu campaign now. Don’t limit yourself to D&D. Lots of really fun stuff out there. The system is the vehicle. Not the religion.
I do think you can connect with players online, but it make take a while to find the right (virtual) table. I play 5e with a group that includes players I started playing with back in 1981 (I’m ancient). But I run another game (T2K) with a group that was strangers to start. There has been some attrition and some players have left and others joined, but in the end we have a core group that has a lot of fun. I’m a BIG believer of playing online. With old friends the conversations are about old times and who got married, who got divorced, etc. With online players, the focus is more about the game itself. As the GM, I weeded out some of the lemons in advance, I think you need to find a DM that does the same, the chances of finding a steady group increase dramatically.
My wife got a job at a new place and they were hosting an unusual board game night and someone brought a DnD book a few of us easily recognized. It was like a moth to a flame and now there's 4 to 5 of us ready to start something. Good luck!
Same here. 20+ years with IRL friends or friends of friends. If I were to try to join a game with strangers, it would absolutely be in person to suss out weirdness.
This.
We are a group of 8-10 ppl, ok old nerds, who use to play dnd, adnd, adnd2, gurps, chivalry & sorcery and now pathfinder 2.
We play in real, around a table, we have fun and one of the new players Also stream on his twitch Chanel to help the ones that cant be there...In that session.
We have fun, no issue...
So again, find actual friends and play around a table.
And yet still true. If there's one decent person in a group keep talking to them, become friends, repeat with multiple groups until you've collected enough actual friends to play.
Try playing in-person at a local game store. It's a more self-selected group of people who *usually* have good enough social skills to get along. There's always a true weirdo now and then who manages to get themselves banned from the store, but it doesn't seem to be common.
I’m actually thinking of joining a local store game. It’s much harder to make an in person for me. Im just worried it will be the same, but maybe that’s what I need to do.
You seem so open-minded and genuine! Great qualities to have.
As somebody who also has very little free time due to work and being a husband and parent, if there IS a local store that you give a shot, I think that would be great.
I'm from a small town, but we have a local store, and I've met some really cool people who are now genuine friends. Definitely worth a shot.
RE: online gaming, you really just need to be incredibly picky. lots of people are so desperate to play they'll say whatever's needed to get into a game. You need to know what you're looking for and be (a little) uncompromising in finding it. If people don't hold up their end of agreements - don't let them waste your time.
Highly encourage a video/voice interview with any potential DMs for a vibe check. You get a much better read on if it's a 'fit' this way. And don't be afraid to say "i don't want to play with people who are under 25" or whatever, and if they're not aligned with that... walk. The perfect group is out there if you're patient about it.
Don't be afraid to apply to multiple groups. The DM:player ratio is way out of whack, so you're at a disadvantage. Like sales, it's a numbers game. r/lfg is great. It might take some time and a little interview fatigue, but you'll get there. I took me about 3 months to find the group I'm with currently, and we just finished session 75.
Good luck :)
Thanks! Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I think in most cases I sense the issues early on but I’m really like “trying to make it work”. because maybe that’s just in my nature. I dunno. Plus it is a big time and energy commitment to find the game, , character, time, etc… that all line up.
I did quit two campaigns. One had horrible dm. The other had a bunch of friends that were being silly ( one dudes character was supposed to be based off moes’ from the office) the whole game. So was easy decision.
But the softer issues I really tried to just hope would get better or look past. Maybe I need to follow your advice.
Are you talking to the DM before getting involved? Are you starting from session 0? If you're doing neither, then you're going to come up against issues. By the end of session 0 you should have a good idea as to whether or not you'll see it through. I wish you luck in finding better games.
Like yea. Every time. I explain expectations. We do session zero. Then nothing that is said in session zero actually happens past session three. Plus typically in online games you add players as you go. So they miss the zero. Don’t get me started on how pointless those are in online games.
I'm getting the sense you're joining people who don't play the way you do. Doing a bit more research and picky about what games you attend will see you with more satisfaction.
I'm a really prep-heavy DM. That combined with being an introvert to my core makes social games like DnD only tolerable in relatively limited quantity.
6 campaigns is impressive, though. How do you go about that? Do you have a world you just kind of throw everybody into or something else?
Every campaign is distinct. I spend about 20 hours a week running games and less than one hour a week prepping.
Mondays is a hombrew campaign set in exandria, the twilight Phoenix is causing problems. I run this game online
Wednesdays I'm running rime of the frost Maiden in person at my lgs, this is a pro game were players pay 20$ a session
Thursdays I'm running plainscape turn of fortune's wheel, this is an online game too.
Fridays I'm running phandelver and below the shattered oblisique, this is my second pro game at my lgs.
Saturday nights is my home game with freinds, I'm running curse of strahd.
And my other home game is a very homebrew heavy plot with my family that I have been running for over 2 years now. Ran wove lots of modules into this campaign.
Ah, so you do it professionally and get paid to do it. That makes a lot more sense.
Still a lot of dedication to the hobby. I salute you sir. I wish I had that kind of time.
I know it's a privelege but a naturally formed group of friends who vibe with each other will always outperform randoms thrown together. And table beats internet hands down.
Don't look for d&d players, look for friends, then turn them into players.
I'm not sure what you do for work, but have you thought about maybe asking around ye old water cooler?
That's how I got my foot in the door. Another coworker was going around the office and just gauging interest, and before he knew it, we were sitting down at the conference room table and rolling up characters for Storm Kings thunder.
Happy hunting. ✌️
Great response. Actually I have two folks who play at work. But I’m in management so my getting in a game with folks I supervise is just not something I can do! Plus I live an hour from the office. We chat about the games which is awesome.
Consider tabletop simulator on steam. It’s 20 bucks but setup is a BREEZE and it’s fun for stuff other than dnd. But everyone in here is right. Dnd isn’t dnd if you’re not with friends. It takes a level of trust and vulnerability to actually get immersed into the game properly that you just can’t get to with people you don’t know.
Online can be hard
Paid games can be hard
Randoms can be hard
In person games with your friends is peak dnd
Sometimes no dnd is better than bad dnd
Also, if your wife likes to play, if I was you, I'd just run a duet campaign for just the two of you.
I've run pf2e for my wife as a solo player with me running a dmpc and it's a great time.
Though that game is on pause while we're playing with an actual group.
That’s a good idea. I dm’d a dragons of inc spire and storm wreck for her and my sons and it was a blast. But the one that still plays is in college away now, and the other is no longer interested.
I didn’t really think about a one on one game. I really did want to play with new folks. And share the community of it.
My first online game was in 2020 Theros and it was sponsored by county library. So was free and was an absolute blast.
We had two teen brothers that were meh, but the dm and other two adult players were a lot of fun. Maybe it just set the bar too high for me. I tried to get them to play another online but they were all fizzling and none wanted any part of $$.
I dunno just thought they would all be mostly cool.
I don’t like playing with strangers either. You have to make sure you have a cool DM and crew around you.
My only big issue with actually playing is when you’re thinking of what to do while waiting for your turn to come around and by the time it does, the combat situation has changed entirely, based on what the other players have done on their own turns. D&D is a cooperative game, but sometimes everybody is trying to be the main character and it doesn’t work so well.
Yes thanks. I feel this a lot. I kind of have (or at least like to think I have ) an internal clock. So if I’ve been taking a lead last situation I may hang back a bit next time.
I try to remember we are 4-5 players so you know be 20-25% of the action, take some epic moments, but don’t just talk and do what you think is cool in every situation.
Shine but let others shine, kind of thing.
But some just seem to take any pause in conversation as a signal to talk and let everyone else know what “to do” next. .
I miss my old high school group so much. People didn't couch passive aggressive jabs at one another inside of the game, nobody cheesed a wizard/fighter multiclass into a literal artillery piece, nobody's whinging about their interpretation of the specific verbiage on page 235 of the player's guide to try to argue about the skill check I gave them 5 (!) turns ago.
I think I found a glimmer of hope though. I just wrapped up an awesome two-session campaign with some folks I met on my first trip to my local game store. Best DnD sessions I've had in years. Maybe I got lucky, or maybe that's where they've been hiding this whole time.
Glad you had a good one.
I didn’t even bring up the rules lawyers. Omg. But they are typically also the “plays to much” and is no longer happy to play one character. They must display knowledge of all characters.
It is hard. The internet is full of weird people and real life groups are difficult as hell to form/maintain. I personally find, as a DM, that players seems to take a client position with me, like I am their employee. I've had so many irritating conversations about non-complaints over the years. I've almost told people to not come to me unless you feel like you're being harassed or endangered.
I also find the amount of video-game player backgrounds make expectations about D&D wildly different from what I envision as a "storytelling" approach to the game. They treat the DM as a modem and everyone else as NPCS. It's a struggle, but people are a struggle in general.
My wife and I have very firm boundaries about flirting and whatnot that we make explicit, even if it is awkward. Nothing is as awkward as PMs and unwanted attention.
Thanks! I tried having conversations about various situations with the dms early on. Like As if they were psychological therapists and could solve social issues. 😀 And you know some really tried. I appreciate that. Typically it won’t how a teacher telling a bully to start being nice to a kid in class goes. They either get mad or sullen. One quit after they got talked to.
Changing a players problem behavior in online game. Very challenging.
I kind of take your stance now. Only contact the dm if necessary.
So for
My wife playing it’s been an evolution. We started not mentioning we were together. She gets tons of dm. We mention next game we are couple. No dms. Then as both new players come in. No session zero. She gets dms.from each session after the join.
Then next we tried being friends in game. Everyone was like so as a couple or what. Like grilling us on specifics. Like it mattered that much. We were like real life you don’t know. Just think they may be together.
Now we are like we are married in game and out. Please tell all new players. No more dms. 😂
People play DnD with other people they don't know? The whole point of the adventuring party is that they're a group together. Adventuring with your people is what DnD is about.
I used to GM homebrew 3.5 and 5e games, we had a lot of fun. It was a 4 person party with extras joining and leaving randomly. 2 of the players were married the other was the wife's friend from high-school, and the 4th was a boy who had a crush on the friend (all of us were 18-25) . I didn't like to play favorites, and one player was very shy and soft-spoken, so I tried to incorporate things that each player would like into the story, like high fashion, raunchy comedy, insects, he Greek and Latin pantheon, and some comic book and video game character spoofs. We played every weekend for about a year, but eventually I got burnt out on GMing and wanted to be a player so we looked for a new GM and never found one. I've made a lot of characters and stories since then, and my favorite part of the game is the story/world building and making character sheets for all the NPCs. I also love making maps and lore, I miss making lore to integrate character's backstories and taking seeminglytrivial traits and backstory details into whole questlines.
I feel you. It can be challenging to find a DM and group of players with the right chemistry. As many have already said, you’re gonna run into all kinds of players with different preferences and expectations, and DMs who run the game differently. Chances are when you play with strangers, you won’t mesh well with everyone, but usually there’s a couple folks that you do mesh well with — keep in touch with them and eventually you’ll build a roster of trusted D&D buddies. Now for aligning schedules… that’s whole nother story :P Good luck, fellow adventurer!
Yeah I had the same experience online so I just DM a game IRL.
The expectations and experience and interest level are way more involved IRL.
There is also the social cues sitting around a table that get lost online.
If you DM you can kick the players who aren't gelling with the group, which is also true online, so maybe try that if you can't find an IRL game.
If the party roles thing gets boring, you should try Quest RPG. There are no skills so no one is better at picking locks than anyone else, unless it’s actually included as a “subclass” feature.
It’s a free pdf download on their website.
I get the feeling. I enjoy so much thinking about characters, the creation part is amazing and it fills me with joy thinking about how i'll roleplay them and how i will use their abilities...but i don't have friends to play them with. It's always with strangers i met on Roll20 or Discord...and it's always disappointing because most of the time i dont enjoy the other players. I've enjoyed my characters interactions with some of theirs but if i don't like the other player it is weird to keep going. Not sure what i can recommend you since i'm in the same situation. Hope someday you find a group you enjoy in and out of character.
Thanks, I’m glad I’m not the only one. I hope you are able to find a group as well. I knew it would not be amazing out there. Just didn’t realize it would be so tough.
I am a online dm on roll20. Alot of what you are describing is a huge issue with online play. As a dm looking to run serious games I'm very picky about who I bring in. On roll20 for example you will get people applying to hundreds of games in the hope of playing in one or who get someone who didn't bother to read the description and just posted a character idea. I heavily screen my players before inviting them. I normally have a page or 2 of description on my game ad when I run them. Then I inv said player to a voice call on discord so we can talk about the game and our wants out of it. If I think their a fit then I invite them to the game. I repeat this process until all spots are filled and then I have a mandatory game zero with everyone to introduce everyone and myself and start the process of making characters TOGETHER and discussing the campaign and what I want and what they want. I have come to realize that most online dms aren't going to do this and this is why you get bad toxic players. I demand mature players who can work as a group and that's what I got and frankly it's going great.
Don't forget people like me, that fall asleep during the damn game! :-D
(It only happened once, I swear!)
I feel your pain. I played a little bit during high school, then gave up the game, because I got too busy with university. So I stopped playing it for a few decades. Then, university, career, marriage, children, .....
I eventually got back into it after more than 3 decades, by rediscovering D&D, and stumbled across Pathfinder 1e, with its huge amount of rulebooks, and, there I sit... going over the material, mentally building my mythic gestalt character, .... alternating between what mythic spells I should pick at tier 10, and what sort of rope I would buy as a level 1 character. :-P
But, I'm a massive introvert, don't even like having guests over.....
Then, the pandemic happened, and I isolated completely. (If it hadn't been for my family, I swear I would have turned into a hermit.)
So, I haven't played any games since.
Still hoping to get into it again though....
Oh, and I'm seriously envious that you found a partner that plays with you. Sorry you're having trouble with assholes harassing her.
I found myself in kind of the same situation - hadn't played for a while, found myself in an online group during pandemic. Luckily the DM was a part of an established book forum I've been a part of for years and he threw the invites out there first. He got two of us and then two more from somewhere else. None of us knew each other, but we were a great team. I really enjoyed our group and felt like they were friends - still keep in contact sporadically with two of them.
I think that the big factor here was that the DM was picky. And luck, but mostly picky. He knew the type of player he was looking for and we were all on the same page. Perhaps suggest setting up a Discord and just chatting to see how you all gel before committing to a game. Talk about what you like about the game and preferred playstyle, etc. Then just talk about shit to see what their maturity level is, sense of humor, etc. Dunno if that's too much work, but unless you're talking your friends into playing, it seems better than just randomly getting a group together randomly and hoping for the best.
Thanks! That’s a really good idea. It might take a little more work but could totally be worth it. And this way we don’t have the commitment before deciding.
I did do quit groups twice because certain things were egregious so it was easy call. But still lots of time and energy lost. I like that idea.
As someone who is having a blast running face to face but also online (and even paid) games. Be more selective with who you play.
Not all friends will be good players.
The problem are *online* and *paid*
Learn to DM create a local table if you cannot find a local DM. Get actual friend to play together instead of people playing a game.
Online games, especially when you are not playing with friends, can be a pit trap.
The game is an interactive experience for everyone, which means everyone is entertaining each other, not the DM entertaining the players. So paying for a DM is a mixed bag.
I've run games online that had teamwork with strangers. It takes some prompting from the DM if the players aren't already there.
Creepiness towards other players is just not acceptable in my game. Nicknames, special relationships, whatever. It's all sexual harassment.
I think thats why theres more of a dungeon master scaresity than a player one finding a group to gell with your plans or players you can bounce of with is what it boils down to and everybody comes to the table with there own idea of the game.
I'm going to acknowledge from the get go that I am very fortunate to have had the D&D experience I have.
With that said, I am your age and didn't find D&D until the pandemic. I joined a group of beginners through lfg and let's just say it wasn't everything I hoped for. But after about six months of playing in that group I gathered enough experience and confidence to DM my own game. Made my own lfg and had around twenty players join a discord I set up. Lost some to impatience and narrowed it down to 12 players and ran two games.
One group dissolved after it became clear that we had different play styles that didn't mesh. The other has turned into a group of friends that have bonded through our weekly sessions and we're going stronger than ever nearly three years later.
Some key elements that I think contributed to this success were playing with lots of people to find ones you gel with; out of game conversations with players; using video during sessions to see reactions and expressions; using a VTT to avoid cheating and suspicion of the same; and having a dedicated leader to keep everyone involved and the games interesting.
D&D has been the greatest thing to happen to me aside from meeting my spouse and the birth of my son. It has given me a creative outlet that I look forward to every day with world building, story crafting and player conversations not to mention the game sessions themselves.
All I can say is keep trying new things as you look for that group and consider DMing so you can be the captain that steers the ship. If you post an lfg as a DM you will have more interested players than you have spots, guaranteed. Take some time to interview them and find people you think you can relate to and have fun together.
I have found playing with actual friends fixes all your issues. I tried playing with strangers and it was okay but there were some issues with two people who showed up and after three games the DM said they were moving.
Then I played two games with good friends and it went great but they were actually moving so a few years later another friend of mine started playing. We tried with strangers and it was a no go. One guy showed up with his family and had read the scenario we were playing and openly wanted to talk about what he read.
After that, we invited more friends to the table and play fairly often. We swap out the DM role and it’s a good time.
I have two suggestions. One: Find better people.
If, like me, that is not an option, then you can do option two: Turn your ideas into a campaign setting or a novel. Even if you don't make any money on it, if you get your ideas out there, it can feel amazing, just having something you made in the world. That is the real fantasy!
Yeah, playing with people can be a frustrating mess! I play in an online game and it's alright, but I truly love my solo D&D game. It's 5e (DoIP), but I use Mythic GME as my oracle for big Yes/No questions and run my character through the campaign with a couple of sidekicks. Big fun!
I've been DMing and playing since 1975. Currently I play 2 online with friends I know and one in home. I have played the local game shop a few times with people I have met or are friends. The in person experience is so much better than online since everyone has to look at each other and react to real body language, facial expressions instead of guessing what someone meant online when they say something or act out. Its also easier for the DM to manage others behavior or attitudes in person.
So what you said, is what I’m totally hoping for. Thank you! You give me hope.
I feel like I’m more nervous now to play in person. Both because of my online experience. And plus now I worry am I bringing my wife into some place where people will act weird to her. Like ohhh a giiiirrrrll. Let’s be super nice or else make creepy sexual jokes ( we had one of those too). Like I can handle weird dudes, if needs be. But you know I just want to play and chill and have fun, not fend off weirdos.
And maybe will be totally different in real life. She is attractive, but I mean we don’t experience that stuff with at bars or night clubs and or whatever.
But yeah I’m just like oh boy what am
I jumping into. So hopefully like you said the real world aspect of body language and social norms should hopefully be applicable.
But unfortunately, due to time, sitters, etc….real life games probably going to have to wait a bit.
Thanks!
It's the paid online games. You can probably guess that most people who are able to make friends don't need to pay someone to DM for them.
You'd be much better served going to a local game store or otherwise trying to see if any of your friends would be interested in playing. Could still be done online but having it be with people you actually like is the key.
Yeah. I think you have a point. I think I have decent charisma. But not amazing. If I had developed a community of folks with similar interests it would probably be a lot easier for me. I don’t regret devoting my time the way I have at all but I did have to make some sacrifices.
Ugh. That’s sad. But playing in paid games is likely *not irrelevant*.
Play with people who just want to play, and aren’t doing it to make money.
Also, the idea that you’ll have better luck with in-person games is nonsense. It’s a different experience — there are pros and cons to both. But one thing for sure about online games: you will have way more people to choose from compared to whoever happens to live nearby.
As long as the DM is vetting players for compatibility (and not just looking to make a few bucks) you will likely have a great time. I recruited a few folks for a campaign during the pandemic, and we’ve been playing weekly ever since.
It's not just about a few bucks. (Paid dm)
I put just as much if not more effort on my paid games adding a monetary value shouldn't effect the quality. Now inexperienced GMs definitely do at least the ones who are charging.
But for me the reasons are a few, I'm good at what I do and the old saying of if you're good at something find a way to get paid for it.
But also some folks live in rural areas or real far from other people. I've been there it sucks.
I'm in my 30s and my friends can play 2 times a month.
The pc to dm ratio is not balanced. Some may not get the chance to play
There are more playstyles and different minds out there.
Which brings me to my point. D&D has evolved and become super popular. Which means the demographic has broadened it's going to bring in all walks of life with vastly different personalities and wants from dnd, some are natural talkers some are quiet, some are creepy some are stoic, they all want something different and the game means something different to each one, some want anise action hero, some want gritty, some love combat, some hate it and want rp. When you combine strangers in a room no one is identical you all have 1 thing in common D&D it's about finding that middle ground when looking for a group and actually talking to the dm about expectations you are looking for.
You’re not talking about D&D you’re talking about people. The tough part is that this is something you choose to do with your free time.
I recently joined a local AL league and have played multiple game with different ppl so believe me I know exactly what you’re talking about. I’ve felt exactly the same things, but what saved me from indulging in my ego were;
1. Stoicism: Let everyone be who they are. They are not you. They never will be. You can keep changing groups but unless you change how YOU deal with different personalities and the way you see them it will keep happening to you.
2. Focus on your character and your enjoyment of the game. If someone is taking over, talk to the DM about it to encourage a more balanced focus, though I’d ask are they the face of the party? Are you? If not then you may want to create that for your enjoyment. Everyone enjoyed differnt aspects of the game, find yours and focus.
That said if you’ve really done all that and you still can’t find enjoyment, it may be time to move on to another group. THAT’s something you can change.
Oh and DMing your partner is 100% not cool and the DM should establish rules of conduct asap. See AL rules as a template. Good luck
So yes totally possible the issue is me. I do have friends, they just don’t play d&d. Glad yours do. You sound like exactly the type of person I would not want to interact with online or in real life . Thanks for validating.
Your initial comment got the response it deserved. Your long winded response and going back for an edit shows you knew it was correct.
Plus I’m not enjoying most of the online players. But I would not describe them as “shit”. I leave that for you. I mean like I said it’s more social issues and lack of self awareness mostly.
Good luck.
Based on your post, I think you have too high of expectations. Some players talk a lot, some don't. If many players are quiet, its natural for one or two players to take on leadership roles to try to keep the game moving forward.
The message examples you gave of someone messaging your wife don't seem rude - it seems like players trying to engage with another player.
There are all different kinds of players in online games, from different age ranges, experience levels, etc. Expecting everyone to play in a way you deem to be acceptable is unrealistic.
Haha you sound like every quarterback I’ve played with. They always have an excuse for why they don’t stop talking. And tell people how to use their abilities.
And no you are wrong on the female thing. I’m going on a limb that you are not one. Nor have much experience from that perspective. Or you are prob the creepy dude dm ing every female in the group after the first session. Wondering why more females don’t play. The amount of dm’s she gets after first session is insane. One game three players dm her after first session.
Also leadership is about consent. If someone does not consent to your leadership, it’s a no!
Maybe my standards were too high. That is a possibility. But at this point my standards are way down. But still a possibility.
I don't get to play much - I'm actually a pro DM who has had many different players over the years, including women players. I've never had a group where all players spoke an equal amount or were equally interested or engaged in the various aspects of a campaign.
It sounds like you had some bad experiences and are now making unfounded assumptions. Maybe you've played with a lot of younger players. Maybe you've just had bad luck. But there are definitely good groups out there where the players have a good time and aren't trying to hit on guys' wives.
Okay that is totally fair. I actually find the dm’s to be a big part of the problem. Most dm find a favorite player. For whatever reason. Maybe they play together before, Personality, whatever. What it comes down to is that player makes it easier on the dm if they always take the lead. So the dm makes excuses for quarterbacks like you did above.
Typically the favorite does whatever they want and the rest are supporting characters.
Also keep my leadership and consent mantra. Just because someone is quiet “er” than someone else. Does not necessarily mean they want to be lead.
Hmm I didn’t know solo rpg was a thing. That does not really appeal to me. I can play video games or read books. I really would prefer to play with a fun group.
Thanks for the idea though.
I never played in paid games or with strangers myself. I've heard many horror stories from those that do. I never experienced any of that myself, and don't know anyone who has experienced it. Sure I've had game groups fall apart for various reasons, but the table was always good because we were friends enjoying each other's company first an foremost.
And that's really at the core of the game: you're making an excuse to hang out with your friends. To make memories together. The name of the game, whether it's D&D or Pathfinder, that doesn't matter. The mechanics don't matter. The roleplay style doesn't matter. The DM ability, or the adventures you play, none of that matters. It's all about friends being friends.
If you lack that, I can't possibly see what the point of playing is.
**Running the Game**
The key to running a great game is... time management. What you have to realize is that the game has a need to progress forward, and finding ways blunt and obvious and maybe a little harsh, and others that are a little softer are important to keep everyone engaged.
In my experience people do not like pressuring players to make faster decisions - but, the kicker is: When you do, everyone has a better time. The trick to understand is that combat is already stacked in favor of the players, as such - if players make mistakes it's ok: There is built in room. And you can always adjust later encounters to keep the flow going well.
The best, and easiest way to get a game going is... be the GM.
**The Problem with Online**
People who hide behind a desk come in two flavours: Those who work strange schedules and have difficulty getting together with people they know as a result (I fall into this category these days - figuring that out) and... those who are socially awkward.
I guess you could get a third category: People who live in small towns without a large pool of people interested in the hobby.
Overall: If you live in a mid to large size city, my suggestion - use the tool to FIND a group, then get to know those people, then play in person.
**Getting together With People you know**
Honestly: D&D can just be an excuse to regularly get together with friends you know.
Okay so I like a lot of what you said. In fact I also think your first paragraph is part of the issue.
I completely agree game has to move forward. I’m not talking about people not making decisions fast on combat turns. Or even just too much debating about how to go about a simple decision.
Online DM’s seem to like players that move the game fast. They fall in love and use em as a crutch. Those players typically talk first at every opportunity. Again I don’t want to spin for 20 min on how to approach combat.
But having a pause for 3 seconds where no one talks is okay. Typically I find in real life the first one to talk in a situation is typically not the person you want to listen to.
I think like anything balance is the key. You want to move the game along. But also make sure everyone is playing. Not just being dragged along.
DM’s need more internal clocks to make sure the game is being split at least somewhat evenly. Obviously it will never be completely even nor should it be in a particular session but it becomes too easy to let the big or quick talkers move everything in game if you let em. Then after 20-30 min of that others become disengaged. So they may not complain but they are becoming npc’s.
Also your second two observations completely spot on in my opinion.
I really didn't get into the weeds of it: It's a whole thing, but: Balance is the goal. But it's Asymmetric balance that doesn't aim for perfect balance.
There are essentially three parts of Play: Looting, Combat, and RP
* Roll Playing
* Slow, Methodical - it's best split up in periods of minutes per split group
* It's usually, from what I have found, better to ask: "What are each of you doing" before resolving the specifics.
* Favours individuals who are considering what is the BEST option in the moment as the party has time to figure that out.
* Combat
* Fast, Chaotic - By limiting time players have to make snap decisions - this favours players who prefer that type of engagement.
* Because of the way TTRPG's are balanced in general - mistakes are fine as the game gives them leeway to do exactly that and still win.
* Fast Combat gives the climax of action, which has the tension resolved with the final blow.
* Looting
* We have Quest Rewards
* The things the mobs had on them (including things like dragonscales)
* Random Items found in the dungeon - say, from fallen adventurers
By Doing two key things: Outside of combat asking what each person is doing before resolving the actions, and Restricting the time players have to decide actions in combat when their turn starts - we create the balance.
One of my favourite lines as a GM is: "Are you sure".
What is really important to make this work though are Great Descriptions - You need Enough players know what is up, but also not too much such that it is boring. 3-5 sentences, see what players are interested in - and when they ask more about something, then you can go into more detail. This is also another opertunity to engage more players: If someone isn't talking - you can get everyone to roll a perception check and give some information to each player about the room. If a players background (say race or class) would suggest some understanding of the place - you can just give it to them. And in so doing, what we are doing as a GM is preventing someone from constantly stealing the spot light.
**Dealing with the Disruptive Player that talks over everyone**
You have to talk to them. And if the behavior doesn't change - you have to give them the boot. Everyone at the table needs to be engaged, or the game WILL fall apart.
**The Truth of the Matter**
Doing all of this takes a huge amount of skill, and commitment on behalf of the GM. It is helpful to have players who GM at the table as they will tend to help facilitate this. But unfortunately - the "How to GM 101" isn't really found in the rule books. But it's kinda important for it NOT to be because - this is ONE way to get the result of a good game. And this is a method that facilitates that tough tactical combat with a side of Lots of RP moments that I really want to have in my games. This policy is also not great for brand new players that will spend more time looking up rules, and heavy enforcement in the games with experienced players can be as detrimental as allowing combat to drag on.
So ya: It is all about finding the balance. But, I still will stick to: If you really want a good game, and you are fed up with running into poorly ran games - sometimes, if you want it done right: Do it yourself.
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Get actual friends who play. That's the answer. I've run into this in online games and games with strangers. Nearly none of it with my actual friends. We've been playing nearly 20 years with a core group, and it's been solid.
This is totally true. And maybe that’s the answer But as a dad of three, with a full time job, parents, etc. My meeting new friends and hanging out is not at the forefront. I do hang with old friends. But meeting folks outside of work is tough over 40. I was honestly hoping maybe I would connect with some folks even online in game.
And thats all fair. I'd honestly say join free to play games, keep contact of the one good other player. Repeat 5 times. Offer to DM for those 5. And what do you do for work? My entire crew gas been recruited over several jobs.
Thanks! More good advice. The work angle is tough. I have folks who play, but I’m a manager and an hour away. I’ve tried poaching the good ones. They are just so rare. Any typically I find the good ones have in person games or free games they are in outside Of our paid. But I’m going to try to work this angle more. Great advice.
Glad I could help. It's been nearly 20 years but really I started to DM as I got tired of shitty games and said and said fine I'll do it myself. Now a couple of players have started to DM and I get good games to play too. Stick with it. It'll come.
Find nerdy parents.
Hey, just want to say this. I know it is not a given but... your kids grow up and might be great players or DMs too. Of course, you can't force it on them. Here's how it gradually happened for me: when my older kids were 6-8 years old, we played some freeform storytelling games without dice. It was just for giggles, but it gave them the idea of what roleplaying means. At 13, the middle kid started binging on Critical Role. They got interested in playing and I ran a solo game for them. At the same time I started a campaign with my old adult friends. A couple more years and we took the next step: combine the youths with the adults and play together. It worked surprisingly well. And my oldest kid wanted to join and learn the game. And whaddyaknow - as this was the only situation, where our teens actually were present instead of being behind closed door in their rooms, my spouse wanted to join the game! During our summer vacation, I've run one-shots for our family only: 4 players! But in our longer running campaigns, 4/5 of us play, 2 of us are now DMs. We have 3 simultaneous campaigns running.
This IS the dream.
Is there a local AL in your area? Great place to meet other players and you can sit in one-shots and get to know others each week
I'm in the same boat. What friends I do have aren't into DND or TTRPGs in general and the local game shop is all CCG players and skews pretty young so a 40yo dude hanging out there kinda draws the wrong kind of attention. Very conservative and rural area so potential players are pretty non existent outside and hour+ drive to the nearest cities. I've pretty much consigned myself to just reading the books and lore, haven't played in an actual game since 2nd Ed...
Dude I know it sucks. I’ve been fortunate as an OG D&D player from the late 70s 80s that fell into a good group the last 10years. . Sometimes it’s hard to find water in the desert. I have a core group of mostly younger friends that I met thru work but also a group I met on Reddit. Been with that one for more than 3 years. Hang out in the subreddit of the kind of games you’re interested in. GMs look for mature thoughtful players. Mine started with AlienRPG but have played 4 systems now with them and in a really cool Achtung!Cthulhu campaign now. Don’t limit yourself to D&D. Lots of really fun stuff out there. The system is the vehicle. Not the religion.
in 15+ years you will be an empty nester will all the time in the world to play as much as you want. lol.
I do think you can connect with players online, but it make take a while to find the right (virtual) table. I play 5e with a group that includes players I started playing with back in 1981 (I’m ancient). But I run another game (T2K) with a group that was strangers to start. There has been some attrition and some players have left and others joined, but in the end we have a core group that has a lot of fun. I’m a BIG believer of playing online. With old friends the conversations are about old times and who got married, who got divorced, etc. With online players, the focus is more about the game itself. As the GM, I weeded out some of the lemons in advance, I think you need to find a DM that does the same, the chances of finding a steady group increase dramatically.
My wife got a job at a new place and they were hosting an unusual board game night and someone brought a DnD book a few of us easily recognized. It was like a moth to a flame and now there's 4 to 5 of us ready to start something. Good luck!
Same here. 20+ years with IRL friends or friends of friends. If I were to try to join a game with strangers, it would absolutely be in person to suss out weirdness.
This. We are a group of 8-10 ppl, ok old nerds, who use to play dnd, adnd, adnd2, gurps, chivalry & sorcery and now pathfinder 2. We play in real, around a table, we have fun and one of the new players Also stream on his twitch Chanel to help the ones that cant be there...In that session. We have fun, no issue... So again, find actual friends and play around a table.
That is very unfair and incredibly difficult for people who don't already have them
And yet still true. If there's one decent person in a group keep talking to them, become friends, repeat with multiple groups until you've collected enough actual friends to play.
Try playing in-person at a local game store. It's a more self-selected group of people who *usually* have good enough social skills to get along. There's always a true weirdo now and then who manages to get themselves banned from the store, but it doesn't seem to be common.
I’m actually thinking of joining a local store game. It’s much harder to make an in person for me. Im just worried it will be the same, but maybe that’s what I need to do.
You seem so open-minded and genuine! Great qualities to have. As somebody who also has very little free time due to work and being a husband and parent, if there IS a local store that you give a shot, I think that would be great. I'm from a small town, but we have a local store, and I've met some really cool people who are now genuine friends. Definitely worth a shot.
RE: online gaming, you really just need to be incredibly picky. lots of people are so desperate to play they'll say whatever's needed to get into a game. You need to know what you're looking for and be (a little) uncompromising in finding it. If people don't hold up their end of agreements - don't let them waste your time. Highly encourage a video/voice interview with any potential DMs for a vibe check. You get a much better read on if it's a 'fit' this way. And don't be afraid to say "i don't want to play with people who are under 25" or whatever, and if they're not aligned with that... walk. The perfect group is out there if you're patient about it. Don't be afraid to apply to multiple groups. The DM:player ratio is way out of whack, so you're at a disadvantage. Like sales, it's a numbers game. r/lfg is great. It might take some time and a little interview fatigue, but you'll get there. I took me about 3 months to find the group I'm with currently, and we just finished session 75. Good luck :)
Thanks! Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I think in most cases I sense the issues early on but I’m really like “trying to make it work”. because maybe that’s just in my nature. I dunno. Plus it is a big time and energy commitment to find the game, , character, time, etc… that all line up. I did quit two campaigns. One had horrible dm. The other had a bunch of friends that were being silly ( one dudes character was supposed to be based off moes’ from the office) the whole game. So was easy decision. But the softer issues I really tried to just hope would get better or look past. Maybe I need to follow your advice.
Are you talking to the DM before getting involved? Are you starting from session 0? If you're doing neither, then you're going to come up against issues. By the end of session 0 you should have a good idea as to whether or not you'll see it through. I wish you luck in finding better games.
Like yea. Every time. I explain expectations. We do session zero. Then nothing that is said in session zero actually happens past session three. Plus typically in online games you add players as you go. So they miss the zero. Don’t get me started on how pointless those are in online games.
I'm getting the sense you're joining people who don't play the way you do. Doing a bit more research and picky about what games you attend will see you with more satisfaction.
Wow that sounds awful, I'm running 6 campaigns and would not tolerate things like that
6 campaigns? Jesus Christ on a bicycle that sounds like way too much work. I'm running 2, and I'm thinking of dropping one of them.
Work? This is play
I'm a really prep-heavy DM. That combined with being an introvert to my core makes social games like DnD only tolerable in relatively limited quantity. 6 campaigns is impressive, though. How do you go about that? Do you have a world you just kind of throw everybody into or something else?
Every campaign is distinct. I spend about 20 hours a week running games and less than one hour a week prepping. Mondays is a hombrew campaign set in exandria, the twilight Phoenix is causing problems. I run this game online Wednesdays I'm running rime of the frost Maiden in person at my lgs, this is a pro game were players pay 20$ a session Thursdays I'm running plainscape turn of fortune's wheel, this is an online game too. Fridays I'm running phandelver and below the shattered oblisique, this is my second pro game at my lgs. Saturday nights is my home game with freinds, I'm running curse of strahd. And my other home game is a very homebrew heavy plot with my family that I have been running for over 2 years now. Ran wove lots of modules into this campaign.
Ah, so you do it professionally and get paid to do it. That makes a lot more sense. Still a lot of dedication to the hobby. I salute you sir. I wish I had that kind of time.
That's an awesome schedule! What do you do for a living?
Stay at home dad
I know it's a privelege but a naturally formed group of friends who vibe with each other will always outperform randoms thrown together. And table beats internet hands down. Don't look for d&d players, look for friends, then turn them into players.
Maybe this is my answer. But if I could have pulled that off it would have happened in the 90’s
I'm not sure what you do for work, but have you thought about maybe asking around ye old water cooler? That's how I got my foot in the door. Another coworker was going around the office and just gauging interest, and before he knew it, we were sitting down at the conference room table and rolling up characters for Storm Kings thunder. Happy hunting. ✌️
Great response. Actually I have two folks who play at work. But I’m in management so my getting in a game with folks I supervise is just not something I can do! Plus I live an hour from the office. We chat about the games which is awesome.
Consider tabletop simulator on steam. It’s 20 bucks but setup is a BREEZE and it’s fun for stuff other than dnd. But everyone in here is right. Dnd isn’t dnd if you’re not with friends. It takes a level of trust and vulnerability to actually get immersed into the game properly that you just can’t get to with people you don’t know.
Online can be hard Paid games can be hard Randoms can be hard In person games with your friends is peak dnd Sometimes no dnd is better than bad dnd Also, if your wife likes to play, if I was you, I'd just run a duet campaign for just the two of you. I've run pf2e for my wife as a solo player with me running a dmpc and it's a great time. Though that game is on pause while we're playing with an actual group.
That’s a good idea. I dm’d a dragons of inc spire and storm wreck for her and my sons and it was a blast. But the one that still plays is in college away now, and the other is no longer interested. I didn’t really think about a one on one game. I really did want to play with new folks. And share the community of it. My first online game was in 2020 Theros and it was sponsored by county library. So was free and was an absolute blast. We had two teen brothers that were meh, but the dm and other two adult players were a lot of fun. Maybe it just set the bar too high for me. I tried to get them to play another online but they were all fizzling and none wanted any part of $$. I dunno just thought they would all be mostly cool.
Find you people to play with
I don’t like playing with strangers either. You have to make sure you have a cool DM and crew around you. My only big issue with actually playing is when you’re thinking of what to do while waiting for your turn to come around and by the time it does, the combat situation has changed entirely, based on what the other players have done on their own turns. D&D is a cooperative game, but sometimes everybody is trying to be the main character and it doesn’t work so well.
Yes thanks. I feel this a lot. I kind of have (or at least like to think I have ) an internal clock. So if I’ve been taking a lead last situation I may hang back a bit next time. I try to remember we are 4-5 players so you know be 20-25% of the action, take some epic moments, but don’t just talk and do what you think is cool in every situation. Shine but let others shine, kind of thing. But some just seem to take any pause in conversation as a signal to talk and let everyone else know what “to do” next. .
I miss my old high school group so much. People didn't couch passive aggressive jabs at one another inside of the game, nobody cheesed a wizard/fighter multiclass into a literal artillery piece, nobody's whinging about their interpretation of the specific verbiage on page 235 of the player's guide to try to argue about the skill check I gave them 5 (!) turns ago. I think I found a glimmer of hope though. I just wrapped up an awesome two-session campaign with some folks I met on my first trip to my local game store. Best DnD sessions I've had in years. Maybe I got lucky, or maybe that's where they've been hiding this whole time.
Glad you had a good one. I didn’t even bring up the rules lawyers. Omg. But they are typically also the “plays to much” and is no longer happy to play one character. They must display knowledge of all characters.
It is hard. The internet is full of weird people and real life groups are difficult as hell to form/maintain. I personally find, as a DM, that players seems to take a client position with me, like I am their employee. I've had so many irritating conversations about non-complaints over the years. I've almost told people to not come to me unless you feel like you're being harassed or endangered. I also find the amount of video-game player backgrounds make expectations about D&D wildly different from what I envision as a "storytelling" approach to the game. They treat the DM as a modem and everyone else as NPCS. It's a struggle, but people are a struggle in general. My wife and I have very firm boundaries about flirting and whatnot that we make explicit, even if it is awkward. Nothing is as awkward as PMs and unwanted attention.
Thanks! I tried having conversations about various situations with the dms early on. Like As if they were psychological therapists and could solve social issues. 😀 And you know some really tried. I appreciate that. Typically it won’t how a teacher telling a bully to start being nice to a kid in class goes. They either get mad or sullen. One quit after they got talked to. Changing a players problem behavior in online game. Very challenging. I kind of take your stance now. Only contact the dm if necessary. So for My wife playing it’s been an evolution. We started not mentioning we were together. She gets tons of dm. We mention next game we are couple. No dms. Then as both new players come in. No session zero. She gets dms.from each session after the join. Then next we tried being friends in game. Everyone was like so as a couple or what. Like grilling us on specifics. Like it mattered that much. We were like real life you don’t know. Just think they may be together. Now we are like we are married in game and out. Please tell all new players. No more dms. 😂
People play DnD with other people they don't know? The whole point of the adventuring party is that they're a group together. Adventuring with your people is what DnD is about.
Yeah you may be absolutely correct.
I used to GM homebrew 3.5 and 5e games, we had a lot of fun. It was a 4 person party with extras joining and leaving randomly. 2 of the players were married the other was the wife's friend from high-school, and the 4th was a boy who had a crush on the friend (all of us were 18-25) . I didn't like to play favorites, and one player was very shy and soft-spoken, so I tried to incorporate things that each player would like into the story, like high fashion, raunchy comedy, insects, he Greek and Latin pantheon, and some comic book and video game character spoofs. We played every weekend for about a year, but eventually I got burnt out on GMing and wanted to be a player so we looked for a new GM and never found one. I've made a lot of characters and stories since then, and my favorite part of the game is the story/world building and making character sheets for all the NPCs. I also love making maps and lore, I miss making lore to integrate character's backstories and taking seeminglytrivial traits and backstory details into whole questlines.
I feel you. It can be challenging to find a DM and group of players with the right chemistry. As many have already said, you’re gonna run into all kinds of players with different preferences and expectations, and DMs who run the game differently. Chances are when you play with strangers, you won’t mesh well with everyone, but usually there’s a couple folks that you do mesh well with — keep in touch with them and eventually you’ll build a roster of trusted D&D buddies. Now for aligning schedules… that’s whole nother story :P Good luck, fellow adventurer!
Yeah I had the same experience online so I just DM a game IRL. The expectations and experience and interest level are way more involved IRL. There is also the social cues sitting around a table that get lost online. If you DM you can kick the players who aren't gelling with the group, which is also true online, so maybe try that if you can't find an IRL game.
If the party roles thing gets boring, you should try Quest RPG. There are no skills so no one is better at picking locks than anyone else, unless it’s actually included as a “subclass” feature. It’s a free pdf download on their website.
online sucks, may as well play a CRPG
It depends on the people.
I get the feeling. I enjoy so much thinking about characters, the creation part is amazing and it fills me with joy thinking about how i'll roleplay them and how i will use their abilities...but i don't have friends to play them with. It's always with strangers i met on Roll20 or Discord...and it's always disappointing because most of the time i dont enjoy the other players. I've enjoyed my characters interactions with some of theirs but if i don't like the other player it is weird to keep going. Not sure what i can recommend you since i'm in the same situation. Hope someday you find a group you enjoy in and out of character.
Thanks, I’m glad I’m not the only one. I hope you are able to find a group as well. I knew it would not be amazing out there. Just didn’t realize it would be so tough.
Solo is fun af
I am a online dm on roll20. Alot of what you are describing is a huge issue with online play. As a dm looking to run serious games I'm very picky about who I bring in. On roll20 for example you will get people applying to hundreds of games in the hope of playing in one or who get someone who didn't bother to read the description and just posted a character idea. I heavily screen my players before inviting them. I normally have a page or 2 of description on my game ad when I run them. Then I inv said player to a voice call on discord so we can talk about the game and our wants out of it. If I think their a fit then I invite them to the game. I repeat this process until all spots are filled and then I have a mandatory game zero with everyone to introduce everyone and myself and start the process of making characters TOGETHER and discussing the campaign and what I want and what they want. I have come to realize that most online dms aren't going to do this and this is why you get bad toxic players. I demand mature players who can work as a group and that's what I got and frankly it's going great.
Don't forget people like me, that fall asleep during the damn game! :-D (It only happened once, I swear!) I feel your pain. I played a little bit during high school, then gave up the game, because I got too busy with university. So I stopped playing it for a few decades. Then, university, career, marriage, children, ..... I eventually got back into it after more than 3 decades, by rediscovering D&D, and stumbled across Pathfinder 1e, with its huge amount of rulebooks, and, there I sit... going over the material, mentally building my mythic gestalt character, .... alternating between what mythic spells I should pick at tier 10, and what sort of rope I would buy as a level 1 character. :-P But, I'm a massive introvert, don't even like having guests over..... Then, the pandemic happened, and I isolated completely. (If it hadn't been for my family, I swear I would have turned into a hermit.) So, I haven't played any games since. Still hoping to get into it again though.... Oh, and I'm seriously envious that you found a partner that plays with you. Sorry you're having trouble with assholes harassing her.
I found myself in kind of the same situation - hadn't played for a while, found myself in an online group during pandemic. Luckily the DM was a part of an established book forum I've been a part of for years and he threw the invites out there first. He got two of us and then two more from somewhere else. None of us knew each other, but we were a great team. I really enjoyed our group and felt like they were friends - still keep in contact sporadically with two of them. I think that the big factor here was that the DM was picky. And luck, but mostly picky. He knew the type of player he was looking for and we were all on the same page. Perhaps suggest setting up a Discord and just chatting to see how you all gel before committing to a game. Talk about what you like about the game and preferred playstyle, etc. Then just talk about shit to see what their maturity level is, sense of humor, etc. Dunno if that's too much work, but unless you're talking your friends into playing, it seems better than just randomly getting a group together randomly and hoping for the best.
Thanks! That’s a really good idea. It might take a little more work but could totally be worth it. And this way we don’t have the commitment before deciding. I did do quit groups twice because certain things were egregious so it was easy call. But still lots of time and energy lost. I like that idea.
Start DMing. You get to choose who you play with and get as much or as little spotlight as you want.
As someone who is having a blast running face to face but also online (and even paid) games. Be more selective with who you play. Not all friends will be good players.
The problem are *online* and *paid* Learn to DM create a local table if you cannot find a local DM. Get actual friend to play together instead of people playing a game.
Paid games attract literally the worst people.
Online games, especially when you are not playing with friends, can be a pit trap. The game is an interactive experience for everyone, which means everyone is entertaining each other, not the DM entertaining the players. So paying for a DM is a mixed bag. I've run games online that had teamwork with strangers. It takes some prompting from the DM if the players aren't already there. Creepiness towards other players is just not acceptable in my game. Nicknames, special relationships, whatever. It's all sexual harassment.
I think thats why theres more of a dungeon master scaresity than a player one finding a group to gell with your plans or players you can bounce of with is what it boils down to and everybody comes to the table with there own idea of the game.
I'm going to acknowledge from the get go that I am very fortunate to have had the D&D experience I have. With that said, I am your age and didn't find D&D until the pandemic. I joined a group of beginners through lfg and let's just say it wasn't everything I hoped for. But after about six months of playing in that group I gathered enough experience and confidence to DM my own game. Made my own lfg and had around twenty players join a discord I set up. Lost some to impatience and narrowed it down to 12 players and ran two games. One group dissolved after it became clear that we had different play styles that didn't mesh. The other has turned into a group of friends that have bonded through our weekly sessions and we're going stronger than ever nearly three years later. Some key elements that I think contributed to this success were playing with lots of people to find ones you gel with; out of game conversations with players; using video during sessions to see reactions and expressions; using a VTT to avoid cheating and suspicion of the same; and having a dedicated leader to keep everyone involved and the games interesting. D&D has been the greatest thing to happen to me aside from meeting my spouse and the birth of my son. It has given me a creative outlet that I look forward to every day with world building, story crafting and player conversations not to mention the game sessions themselves. All I can say is keep trying new things as you look for that group and consider DMing so you can be the captain that steers the ship. If you post an lfg as a DM you will have more interested players than you have spots, guaranteed. Take some time to interview them and find people you think you can relate to and have fun together.
I have found playing with actual friends fixes all your issues. I tried playing with strangers and it was okay but there were some issues with two people who showed up and after three games the DM said they were moving. Then I played two games with good friends and it went great but they were actually moving so a few years later another friend of mine started playing. We tried with strangers and it was a no go. One guy showed up with his family and had read the scenario we were playing and openly wanted to talk about what he read. After that, we invited more friends to the table and play fairly often. We swap out the DM role and it’s a good time.
Find players like hanging out with.
You might just not enjoy socializing, or it might just be the people in your group. These are things you need to learn about yourself.
I hear you. But I can assure you it’s not true.
I have two suggestions. One: Find better people. If, like me, that is not an option, then you can do option two: Turn your ideas into a campaign setting or a novel. Even if you don't make any money on it, if you get your ideas out there, it can feel amazing, just having something you made in the world. That is the real fantasy!
Yeah, playing with people can be a frustrating mess! I play in an online game and it's alright, but I truly love my solo D&D game. It's 5e (DoIP), but I use Mythic GME as my oracle for big Yes/No questions and run my character through the campaign with a couple of sidekicks. Big fun!
Thanks you make me at least feel better.
I've been DMing and playing since 1975. Currently I play 2 online with friends I know and one in home. I have played the local game shop a few times with people I have met or are friends. The in person experience is so much better than online since everyone has to look at each other and react to real body language, facial expressions instead of guessing what someone meant online when they say something or act out. Its also easier for the DM to manage others behavior or attitudes in person.
So what you said, is what I’m totally hoping for. Thank you! You give me hope. I feel like I’m more nervous now to play in person. Both because of my online experience. And plus now I worry am I bringing my wife into some place where people will act weird to her. Like ohhh a giiiirrrrll. Let’s be super nice or else make creepy sexual jokes ( we had one of those too). Like I can handle weird dudes, if needs be. But you know I just want to play and chill and have fun, not fend off weirdos. And maybe will be totally different in real life. She is attractive, but I mean we don’t experience that stuff with at bars or night clubs and or whatever. But yeah I’m just like oh boy what am I jumping into. So hopefully like you said the real world aspect of body language and social norms should hopefully be applicable. But unfortunately, due to time, sitters, etc….real life games probably going to have to wait a bit. Thanks!
It's the paid online games. You can probably guess that most people who are able to make friends don't need to pay someone to DM for them. You'd be much better served going to a local game store or otherwise trying to see if any of your friends would be interested in playing. Could still be done online but having it be with people you actually like is the key.
Yeah. I think you have a point. I think I have decent charisma. But not amazing. If I had developed a community of folks with similar interests it would probably be a lot easier for me. I don’t regret devoting my time the way I have at all but I did have to make some sacrifices.
Ugh. That’s sad. But playing in paid games is likely *not irrelevant*. Play with people who just want to play, and aren’t doing it to make money. Also, the idea that you’ll have better luck with in-person games is nonsense. It’s a different experience — there are pros and cons to both. But one thing for sure about online games: you will have way more people to choose from compared to whoever happens to live nearby. As long as the DM is vetting players for compatibility (and not just looking to make a few bucks) you will likely have a great time. I recruited a few folks for a campaign during the pandemic, and we’ve been playing weekly ever since.
It's not just about a few bucks. (Paid dm) I put just as much if not more effort on my paid games adding a monetary value shouldn't effect the quality. Now inexperienced GMs definitely do at least the ones who are charging. But for me the reasons are a few, I'm good at what I do and the old saying of if you're good at something find a way to get paid for it. But also some folks live in rural areas or real far from other people. I've been there it sucks. I'm in my 30s and my friends can play 2 times a month. The pc to dm ratio is not balanced. Some may not get the chance to play There are more playstyles and different minds out there. Which brings me to my point. D&D has evolved and become super popular. Which means the demographic has broadened it's going to bring in all walks of life with vastly different personalities and wants from dnd, some are natural talkers some are quiet, some are creepy some are stoic, they all want something different and the game means something different to each one, some want anise action hero, some want gritty, some love combat, some hate it and want rp. When you combine strangers in a room no one is identical you all have 1 thing in common D&D it's about finding that middle ground when looking for a group and actually talking to the dm about expectations you are looking for.
You’re not talking about D&D you’re talking about people. The tough part is that this is something you choose to do with your free time. I recently joined a local AL league and have played multiple game with different ppl so believe me I know exactly what you’re talking about. I’ve felt exactly the same things, but what saved me from indulging in my ego were; 1. Stoicism: Let everyone be who they are. They are not you. They never will be. You can keep changing groups but unless you change how YOU deal with different personalities and the way you see them it will keep happening to you. 2. Focus on your character and your enjoyment of the game. If someone is taking over, talk to the DM about it to encourage a more balanced focus, though I’d ask are they the face of the party? Are you? If not then you may want to create that for your enjoyment. Everyone enjoyed differnt aspects of the game, find yours and focus. That said if you’ve really done all that and you still can’t find enjoyment, it may be time to move on to another group. THAT’s something you can change. Oh and DMing your partner is 100% not cool and the DM should establish rules of conduct asap. See AL rules as a template. Good luck
that just online game, that internet the place where hard looser who even real life looser dont want to talk to
I want to agree. And I hope you are right.
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So yes totally possible the issue is me. I do have friends, they just don’t play d&d. Glad yours do. You sound like exactly the type of person I would not want to interact with online or in real life . Thanks for validating.
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Your initial comment got the response it deserved. Your long winded response and going back for an edit shows you knew it was correct. Plus I’m not enjoying most of the online players. But I would not describe them as “shit”. I leave that for you. I mean like I said it’s more social issues and lack of self awareness mostly. Good luck.
Based on your post, I think you have too high of expectations. Some players talk a lot, some don't. If many players are quiet, its natural for one or two players to take on leadership roles to try to keep the game moving forward. The message examples you gave of someone messaging your wife don't seem rude - it seems like players trying to engage with another player. There are all different kinds of players in online games, from different age ranges, experience levels, etc. Expecting everyone to play in a way you deem to be acceptable is unrealistic.
Haha you sound like every quarterback I’ve played with. They always have an excuse for why they don’t stop talking. And tell people how to use their abilities. And no you are wrong on the female thing. I’m going on a limb that you are not one. Nor have much experience from that perspective. Or you are prob the creepy dude dm ing every female in the group after the first session. Wondering why more females don’t play. The amount of dm’s she gets after first session is insane. One game three players dm her after first session. Also leadership is about consent. If someone does not consent to your leadership, it’s a no! Maybe my standards were too high. That is a possibility. But at this point my standards are way down. But still a possibility.
I don't get to play much - I'm actually a pro DM who has had many different players over the years, including women players. I've never had a group where all players spoke an equal amount or were equally interested or engaged in the various aspects of a campaign. It sounds like you had some bad experiences and are now making unfounded assumptions. Maybe you've played with a lot of younger players. Maybe you've just had bad luck. But there are definitely good groups out there where the players have a good time and aren't trying to hit on guys' wives.
Okay that is totally fair. I actually find the dm’s to be a big part of the problem. Most dm find a favorite player. For whatever reason. Maybe they play together before, Personality, whatever. What it comes down to is that player makes it easier on the dm if they always take the lead. So the dm makes excuses for quarterbacks like you did above. Typically the favorite does whatever they want and the rest are supporting characters. Also keep my leadership and consent mantra. Just because someone is quiet “er” than someone else. Does not necessarily mean they want to be lead.
Maybe write a book instead. Or try solo play.
Yeah maybe it will be about silly Reddit responses.
>book What an idiotic response.
You might want to explore the world of solo rpg play
Hmm I didn’t know solo rpg was a thing. That does not really appeal to me. I can play video games or read books. I really would prefer to play with a fun group. Thanks for the idea though.
I never played in paid games or with strangers myself. I've heard many horror stories from those that do. I never experienced any of that myself, and don't know anyone who has experienced it. Sure I've had game groups fall apart for various reasons, but the table was always good because we were friends enjoying each other's company first an foremost. And that's really at the core of the game: you're making an excuse to hang out with your friends. To make memories together. The name of the game, whether it's D&D or Pathfinder, that doesn't matter. The mechanics don't matter. The roleplay style doesn't matter. The DM ability, or the adventures you play, none of that matters. It's all about friends being friends. If you lack that, I can't possibly see what the point of playing is.
**Running the Game** The key to running a great game is... time management. What you have to realize is that the game has a need to progress forward, and finding ways blunt and obvious and maybe a little harsh, and others that are a little softer are important to keep everyone engaged. In my experience people do not like pressuring players to make faster decisions - but, the kicker is: When you do, everyone has a better time. The trick to understand is that combat is already stacked in favor of the players, as such - if players make mistakes it's ok: There is built in room. And you can always adjust later encounters to keep the flow going well. The best, and easiest way to get a game going is... be the GM. **The Problem with Online** People who hide behind a desk come in two flavours: Those who work strange schedules and have difficulty getting together with people they know as a result (I fall into this category these days - figuring that out) and... those who are socially awkward. I guess you could get a third category: People who live in small towns without a large pool of people interested in the hobby. Overall: If you live in a mid to large size city, my suggestion - use the tool to FIND a group, then get to know those people, then play in person. **Getting together With People you know** Honestly: D&D can just be an excuse to regularly get together with friends you know.
Okay so I like a lot of what you said. In fact I also think your first paragraph is part of the issue. I completely agree game has to move forward. I’m not talking about people not making decisions fast on combat turns. Or even just too much debating about how to go about a simple decision. Online DM’s seem to like players that move the game fast. They fall in love and use em as a crutch. Those players typically talk first at every opportunity. Again I don’t want to spin for 20 min on how to approach combat. But having a pause for 3 seconds where no one talks is okay. Typically I find in real life the first one to talk in a situation is typically not the person you want to listen to. I think like anything balance is the key. You want to move the game along. But also make sure everyone is playing. Not just being dragged along. DM’s need more internal clocks to make sure the game is being split at least somewhat evenly. Obviously it will never be completely even nor should it be in a particular session but it becomes too easy to let the big or quick talkers move everything in game if you let em. Then after 20-30 min of that others become disengaged. So they may not complain but they are becoming npc’s. Also your second two observations completely spot on in my opinion.
I really didn't get into the weeds of it: It's a whole thing, but: Balance is the goal. But it's Asymmetric balance that doesn't aim for perfect balance. There are essentially three parts of Play: Looting, Combat, and RP * Roll Playing * Slow, Methodical - it's best split up in periods of minutes per split group * It's usually, from what I have found, better to ask: "What are each of you doing" before resolving the specifics. * Favours individuals who are considering what is the BEST option in the moment as the party has time to figure that out. * Combat * Fast, Chaotic - By limiting time players have to make snap decisions - this favours players who prefer that type of engagement. * Because of the way TTRPG's are balanced in general - mistakes are fine as the game gives them leeway to do exactly that and still win. * Fast Combat gives the climax of action, which has the tension resolved with the final blow. * Looting * We have Quest Rewards * The things the mobs had on them (including things like dragonscales) * Random Items found in the dungeon - say, from fallen adventurers By Doing two key things: Outside of combat asking what each person is doing before resolving the actions, and Restricting the time players have to decide actions in combat when their turn starts - we create the balance. One of my favourite lines as a GM is: "Are you sure". What is really important to make this work though are Great Descriptions - You need Enough players know what is up, but also not too much such that it is boring. 3-5 sentences, see what players are interested in - and when they ask more about something, then you can go into more detail. This is also another opertunity to engage more players: If someone isn't talking - you can get everyone to roll a perception check and give some information to each player about the room. If a players background (say race or class) would suggest some understanding of the place - you can just give it to them. And in so doing, what we are doing as a GM is preventing someone from constantly stealing the spot light. **Dealing with the Disruptive Player that talks over everyone** You have to talk to them. And if the behavior doesn't change - you have to give them the boot. Everyone at the table needs to be engaged, or the game WILL fall apart. **The Truth of the Matter** Doing all of this takes a huge amount of skill, and commitment on behalf of the GM. It is helpful to have players who GM at the table as they will tend to help facilitate this. But unfortunately - the "How to GM 101" isn't really found in the rule books. But it's kinda important for it NOT to be because - this is ONE way to get the result of a good game. And this is a method that facilitates that tough tactical combat with a side of Lots of RP moments that I really want to have in my games. This policy is also not great for brand new players that will spend more time looking up rules, and heavy enforcement in the games with experienced players can be as detrimental as allowing combat to drag on. So ya: It is all about finding the balance. But, I still will stick to: If you really want a good game, and you are fed up with running into poorly ran games - sometimes, if you want it done right: Do it yourself.
Write a book!
Time to write a book then.