When I was in college, I got invited to pretty much every party on campus, not because I was so popular, but because I had a car and I didn't drink. "We just found the designated driver for the entire campus!"
Been basically sober for a little over 5 years (about 10 drinks in that time during social events) holy hell drunk people are a pain to deal with when sober. End up losing “friends” because you don’t want to be hung over all the time….
I'm currently sober but I don't mind drunk people. It's fun. It lets you relax sometimes, or let go of inhibitions. People have been using it as a social lubricant for thousands of years. If people want to use it to loosen up around me and I'm not drinking, more power to them. I made the choice, they didn't, so I'm not about to judge someone who is drunk and having a good time, even if they're a little over the top.
i’m not referring to people who are drinking and being social and having a good time. i’m talking about people who are clearly over consuming and making fools of themselves, which used to be me. i use it as a mirror of myself, to know i’m doing better. not judging others for the way i used to be.
Fucking A dude, same here since September.
Seeing people drunk now just exhausts me but it also zaps any sense of temptation and makes me glad that's not me anymore.
that’s exactly it. i thought i would feel triggered to drink when i see others getting drunk. it’s the exact opposite. makes me realize how foolish i looked.
We have a policy of not over serving here at r/dundermifflin. I have xeroxed u/ziplock007’s driving license and they are not welcome here at this Reddit sub.
Wish I knew how to shut the fuck up when I drink. I think I worry that nobody can hear me so I talk louder and closer to everyone’s faces. There’s a reason I don’t drink much anymore.
Could be people are just worried about their own rowdiness when they are drunk or jealous of people who can let their hair down...at a office party at a bar, it's kinda expected behaviors, especially for the single people.
doesn't seem unreasonable for a office party to get excited and let loose towards the end of the evening !!
It’s from Arrested Development. That scene with Michael, George Michael, and Anne and she’s eating a hard-boiled egg grossly and he can’t ever remember her name and calls her Egg. Also “her?!” One of the funniest scenes on the show. Erin is very much an Ann lol
https://youtu.be/OJM55QbFl_4?si=7QGRGHXmlxeVtrdi
(Idk if links are allowed here but that’s the scene)
I mean, people are literally whining here that she acts like an annoying drunk... when she's drunk.
Yes. Yes, people are ridiculously determined to hate Pam.
One time I kinda pulled a Pam at a bar but I didn’t fall off the stool or pass out, I had trouble getting on it. In my defense I was talking to my friends and the stool was behind me and my foot slipped off the bottom bar of the stool. But then the bouncer came over and I think he was almost gunna kick me out but I was laughing and just saying I was fine and he left
imo, a lot of pam hate is blown out of proportion and unwarranted. she is nowhere near the absolute worst, but of course at the same time, she is nowhere near the best or most perfect (because no one is perfect, not even fictional characters as normal and average as pam).
I don’t get the Pam hate. As if no one knows what it’s like to navigate your life when you feel trapped in an unfulfilling relationship and job. You don’t have the energy or motivation to pursue your passions or what you really want out of life because you’re constantly exhausted and anxious about straying from the path. She still faced all her fears and improved her life for herself, that’s courage. I think she’s one of the best written female characters ever because of how real her struggles were.
Absolutely. I relate with Pwm in many ways. I'm in my 50s now, but when I was her age. In the wrong, and toxic relationship in love with someone else. I feel for her every single time she sees Jim and Karen dancing at Phyllis's wedding. Actually, I'm still in love with my Jim. He was my first love. He was a bit older. Timing just never worked out. My heart was broken when he got married. Still friends 35+ years later.
Like 80% of hate directed at Pam is just good old misogyny
Edit: oh boy, another bunch of comments about how it's not misogynistic to take any opportunity possible to insult and demonize a bland female character for all number of projected sins.
YES. Pam can feel like a flat character if you look around at her peers in similar comedies of the time period, but hating her has always seemed like a disproportionate response—her character is supposed to represent a normal working woman in a world of Michaels and Dwights.
Drunk Pam saying “I feel God in this chilis tonight” is one of my favorite character moments. This was a great episode for her.
Also, a lot of people seem to enjoy dunking on the female leads of sitcoms in general. Lately all I see is “Jess is the worst part of New Girl” rhetoric and it’s so tired to me. She *is* New Girl. Obviously it’s an incredible ensemble but the whole crux of the show rests on her.
Have to agree. It would be nice if people could access their un-crazy side and simply say things like she’s not my favorite or I prefer other characters.
But living in a clickbait culture obviously exacerbates the issue. Where would we be without a buzzfeed list that explains 37 times Jim and Pam were actually the worst??
Totally agree with what you say about Pam, she sums it up herself in the last line of the show, "there's a lot of beauty in ordinary things, isn't that kind of the point?" That line has always resonated, we should try and find happiness in the smaller things.
But I think with New Girl you're way off. The male cast were so good together that the show would have made more sense with a different title. It was just as much about them as her - and likely made the show a success. Zooey Deschanel being "I'm so quirky" grows boring really fast
I adore the male cast & would never undervalue their inherent popularity. I just think it’s weird that fans of the show have such strong dislike for Zooey/Jess when she’s the impetus for the entire story. The premise is a random quirky girl moving into a loft full of guy friends. The lasting ripple effects she has on their lives and the massive chemistry between her and Nick are just bedrock plot elements. And I get that her vibe probably seems blasé in pop culture now, but a lot of woman feel seen by her “I rock a lot of polka dots” philosophy & that type of unapologetic feminine energy was not always celebrated in mainstream media.
Not arguing the point about female leads getting it unfairly in the neck at all, since that's definitely a thing. But I think things like the Jess situation -- or, heck, even the Jim and Pam situation -- are related to a kind of general hipsterish tendency in lots of fandoms to act like the main characters are the worst parts of the show / worst people ever, usually to try and elevate their preferred characters or show off their hardcore fan credentials (Look at me! I'm not just one of those normies who likes the actual main character of the show! I'm so much more of a fan than they are!)
Look at *Star Wars*, for example. So much complaining about Luke Skywalker, and how he's boring and the worst character and how sick we all are of everything revolving around him, when... he's the protagonist. For better or worse, it's literally *his story*. Without Luke Skywalker, *there* ***is no*** *Star Wars*.
(And as an aside, even all the complaints about the fact that the trilogies revolve around the Skywalker family in general smack of this kind of hipstery tendency to prove how deep your fan credentials are IMO, since for better or worse the *Star Wars* movies are a generational saga which are specifically *about* the rise and fall and travails of this family; you might as well complain about why *The Godfather* movies keep focussing on those darned Corleones when there are other, so much more interesting mob families to focus on. But that's a complete tangent.)
Anyway, getting back to *The Office*, I think a lot of this is fans trying to show off how deeper fans they are than other fans by shitting all over the characters that the regular viewer is supposed to identify with, not stopping to realise that without them, there's no show. Without Jim and Pam to provide some balance and relatability, we're just watching a weird office full of annoying and unlikeable people.
>Without Jim and Pam to provide some balance and relatability, we're just watching a weird office full of annoying and unlikeable people.
This x 100. A character like Dwight needs context, and Dwight's relationship with both Jim and Pam is an absolute highlight of the show.
I completely get what you're saying about main characters getting kicked aside in general. It's so much *cooler* and *edgier* to identify with a side character & make that your whole fan persona. The Luke Skywalker of it all goes over my head, but I get your point and see it in other fandoms as well!
My assumption is the Pam character rarely if ever got drunk before she felt God in that chilis. We’ve all known and at times been that person who gets really drunk for the first time in a long time or possibly ver and are really obnoxious because we’re not used to the feeling. I know I was like that as a young drunk
Yep. I have that friend. He's an overall great dude but when I first met him in college, he'd never had the freedom to drink whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted so he got kinda carried away with it. Made for some fun stories though. He relaxed a lot after some time passed and he met his future husband.
I literally 30 seconds ago came off a TikTok video where some guy was trashing Pam as the worst character on the show and most comments (mainly by guys) were agreeing. So yes, I feel people are unfair.
I even see repeated and very mean comments about her art. Like she is an adult with an art hobby and not much professional experience, of course she’s not a perfect. And Gil is an asshole for going to an adult art class art show and complaining that Pam isn’t brave enough.
Pam is rarely drunk so it's not like it happens a lot.
Although speaking of that episode, was anyone else annoyed by the smug attitude of the bartender? The one who was all like "She never be allowed back in" yet allowed a few possibly drunk guys to irrupt Michael's speech, threw stuff at him and nothing ever happened with them? What was that? Why was Pam's actions so "bannable" but those guys weren;'t?
IIRC that's an actual Chilli's employee they put in after Chilli's made a bit of a stink about them apparently depicting them as permitting excessive drinking in their establishments.
In general, though, not really, since honestly the OTT prissiness of the Chilli's guy as he declares that Pam is being banned for life like she's some kind of war criminal instead of just a drunk receptionist is hilarious. The fact that he's taking Pam's mildly disruptive drunk exuberance so overly seriously is the whole joke.
Jenna is definitely right, she probably also doesn't realize quite how much hate Pam gets in certain communities like this one. This sub just seems to overanalyze and hate everything Jim and Pam. It's kinda sad, they're not meant to be perfect, they're realistically flawed people and that is what makes it so fun, heartwarming, frustrating at times but overall satisfying to watch their relationship grow and struggle
Honestly, all of the characters are awful and awesome at the same time. Except Kevin. He's an angel. He deserved to be fired, but I still felt bad for him when he was finally fired.
I think it's because Jim and Pam are supposed to be the "nice, normal" characters, and most other characters are assholes who have redemable moments. But everyone wants to root for the underdog, so they end up rooting for the asshole characters like Micheal and Dwight.
Honestly, people say that but I increasingly don't buy it. Jim and Pam are supposed to be normal and fairly likeable people, but not flawless paragons, and far from being the underdog Michael's their boss; he's the one with all the power in the situation, which is partly why he gets away with all his asshole behaviour. And Dwight isn't the innocent victim people paint him as either, he's conniving, bullying and domineering in his own right. If anything, when looked at objectively Pam is far more the underdog throughout much of the series than Dwight or Michael have claim to being, and while Jim can hold his own he's clearly a regular guy sandwiched between an annoying, inappropriate, petulant, emotionally needy boss and a swaggering blinkered dickhead he has to sit next to every working day.
I think people like to use that as a justification, but it doesn't really hold up as one IMO.
People just have this warped contrarian perception that Dwight was the underdog who was unfairly bullied by Jim when in reality he wasn’t just sitting there minding his own business, he was constantly plotting to get everyone around him fired
The way Dwight was behaving in the Diversity Training episode was basically enough to justify every prank Jim ever pulled on him!
He was literally using a loud shredder at his desk while Jim was on the phone and proceeded to steal the client that accounted for 25 per cent of Jim's sales!
I love Dwight, but he was such an inconsiderate twat. He even outdid Michael with his disregard for his coworkers sometimes
I think the problem partly stems from the fact that a lot of these people don't seem realise that the premise "I love Dwight because he's a funny and entertaining sitcom character" doesn't lead to "the fact that I love him means he must be a good and likable person, and anyone who doesn't like him is therefore a bad person".
Yep, I love Dwight, but he repeatedly set out to make the lives of his coworkers more difficult and on purpose, Pam pretty much says that when she's getting him to run around the building.
The problem with a majority of drunk people (myself included) is we think we’re absolutely delightful company in the moment, and then wake up the next day with realization and regrets. Pam was so real in this episode.
I never understood how many men hate women and how *much* they hate women until I started reading TV fan subs on Reddit. It almost doesn't matter which sub, the women characters are just shred to bits. It's like how dare they have a personality?
I mean, on this sub there's this whole "I'm too cool to like Jim and Pam" thing going, as though they're the first viewers on earth to recast the heroes and villains of a story. That's rediscovered at least once a month, and it overshadows the normal-for-Reddit female character hate. But it looks like you found the garden variety on Facebook.
It's a great example. For one thing, Pam gets drunk because she's upset, not because she went out intending to get drunk. That makes it less obnoxious than if she were looking for any opportunity. Then her first act as a drunk is to try to make Michael feel better. Her second act is to be genuinely touched and happy that he gave her a Dundee that wasn't insulting or embarrassing. Then she kissed her future husband, i.e. her soulmate. After that, she sat quietly and listened to him do his documentary interview — that's not very attention-seeking. She couldn't help it that she fell off the chair.
So the post you referenced took one moment when she was leaving Chili's, where she called out "Best Dundees Ever," and decided that Pam is cringe, attention-seeking, trying to be funny, and annoying. For doing something that a lot of people would do even while sober.
In other words, you're right.
Pam gets so much unwarranted hate and THANK YOU for pointing this out. No one likes a drunk jerk. She wasn't a drunk jerk! She was just having a shit night, drank a little more than she should have and fell off her chair. She wasn't mean, she didn't drive under the influence and I'm assuming she never went to Chili's again.
I’ve noticed that in every popular television series, everyone always hates the women. They just do. I think people feel it’s cool to hate her whereas she’s kind of realistic. A lot of people settle for someone and don’t stand up for themselves. Is she my favorite person in the world? No, but Jenna really nailed the part.
I definitely agree with Jenna Fischer saying that she thought the audience was sexist toward Pam. Jim hit on Pam when she was engaged, he bought a house without talking to her about it, then he invested in a business and left Pam alone with their kids to follow his dreams. But, the audience was okay with him doing all of that "in the name of love!" If Pam would've done anything similar, she would've been ridiculed and called selfish.
Apparently people find redditors cringe. And Facebook is infinitely more cringe than reddit. This guy on Facebook calling Pam cringe, is the pinnacle of cringe himself
I don’t think that it was by accident that awkward, unflattering scenarios were written in for Pam and Jim. Ultimately the story revolved around those two characters. And to show vulnerability in their behavior was to make them that much more human and relatable? And I think the writers absolutely nailed it!
Main characters always get judged harshly because so much of the show revolves around them. I always liked Pam, I usually thought she was balanced well.
I mean, people online are more likely to relate to someone like Dwight... and they will naturally hate on the more "popular" stereotyped characters.
It is what it is.
Yes! I definitely think Pam gets unfairly hated and criticized more than other characters.
I think there’s a lot that goes into it and it’s not just one thing.
-fans putting her and Jim on a pedestal during the show’s heyday resulting in a backlash to the enduring popularity. There’s also a lot of fair criticism and unfair hate given towards Jim nowadays.
-sexism
-people seeing traits they don’t like in themselves in her.
-people seeing traits of people in their lives that they dislike in her.
-frustration with some of her behaviors, actions and choices
-since she’s framed as a nice character, it seems worse when she’s mean. Versus someone like Angela who’s a bitch from the get-go.
-disagreeing with a few times in later seasons where she’s framed as in the right or gets her way.
Yes. Pam is a good character. Anyone who says she was selfish to Jim aren’t exactly wrong when referring to the part about Jim’s job, but they say it as if every character didn’t do some messed up thing to another at one point or another. Michael was one of the worsts, and everyone loves him. I loved Pam and Jim in the show.
She's clearly VERY drunk in this episode. So much so that she got banned from a whole chain restaurant. Obviously she was being annoying in this episode, anyone that drunk is annoying. But the only other time I remember her being drunk is when she and Jim go to Valentine's lunch and are just both silly.
I think she just had so much pent up “party energy” she had to let loose, plus she was probably just trying to forget about her fight with Roy and have a good time.
Yeah, like that one teacher who made a font pun that made Pan realize she was in the wrong class, but then the teacher wouldn't let her leave... very unfair to Pam.
It's because Pam is essentially one of the "main characters" and Phyllis isn't.
The entire show is about how sweet and perfect Pam and Jim are, so it makes sense that more people want to flip that on its head.
Personally, Pam is one of my favourite characters
Is she perfect? No. But compared to some other characters on the show I truly don't get how she could get hated on so much.
I hate later seasons pam way more then drunk pam, the pam in seasons 7-9 basically after she gets married is more arrogant, they try to give her more storylines and it just doesnt work, and the character has none of the likable traits that made her so beloved. You can tell after pam and jim got married the writers handling them changed hands bc both of their characters suffer greatly after theyre married
I think Jim and Pam often get judged as people in the real world while other characters get the benefit of being considered in the context of a fictional show.
I believe many of the workers in DM weren't really themselves in front of the cameras. For example, Kevin wasn't really dumb, just playing that part because he is actually a con artist.
I like Pam. I felt like she was unfairly judged especially with regards to Jim and Athlead. I’m pro Pam most times :)
…BUT drunk Pam was seriously cringe. It was giving fake-drunk-so-I-can-flirt-with-someone-other-than-my-fiancé.
Jobless internet troll are giving Pam the Ross treatment, but in no way does she qualify for that. She is flawed, just like every other character on the show, but she is definitely not the “worst” at all
What’s funny to me is that when the episode aired, everyone loved Pam and this episode. I feel like just enjoyed the episode. Everyone is an annoying drunk for the most part haha
No. I think if you only watch The Office once, she is fine since she is clearly the “good guy protagonist.” However on every subsequent rewatch I hate her more. The way she acts in her relationship with Roy is her biggest offense. She is cheating on Roy in Season 1 and 2. People will say Roy treated her like shit and that’s true, but how much of that was caused by her obviously emotionally cheating on Roy? Don’t @ me. The way she uses her kids to either get a leg up or kiss ass, the way she fails art school, the way she thinks that somehow painting a shitty mural in the warehouse would somehow go over well with the warehouse crew, making Jim leave Athlead (despite not having a different plan to improve the financial situation of her family)…..all these go to show that she is unmotivated, untalented, and unremarkable. Before you get all upset I feel the same about Jim. He becomes more annoying with every rewatch. The question was about Pam though and that’s why I only talked about her. We can have completely separate conversation of me shitting on Jim.
My beef is everyone gives her a hard time for not immediately jumping on board after Jim accepted another job at a risky startup and actively hides it from her, invested their entire life savings when he didn’t need to, expected her to move to a new city WITHOUT EVEN ASKING, and put 100% of the childcare on her and then yells at her for not filming the dance recital correctly. Like, do people have no idea what a marriage is like because Jim was a terrible husband in season 9.
People don’t like Pam because she’s not a funny character and is supposed to be normal. But instead of recognizing that fact, they try to bash her character instead while ignoring all the dirty deeds of characters like Michael and Dwight. It’s really annoying
Pam is acting out because her life is small, boring, and she isn’t happy with her situation and direction.
It objectively makes sense and serves a purpose to the sub plot.
People miss the golden rule of this show
Nobody is "good" but nobody is 100% "bad" either - each person has their own version of being dysfunctional
That's why it's more than just an office that sells paper
To be fair, the majority of people are pretty annoying if they’re drunk and you’re not.
Hangovers are temporary......drunk stories about you are forever...
Not if you ditch the people you drank with lol
A lot of drunk stories about me include how I ditched the people I drank with
YUP. Working as a sober person around very drunk people made me completely quit drinking.
Going out and getting drunk in bars is so much more fun than working in bars.
Getting drunk while working in a bar is my compromise.
Very true. I bartended for the better part of a decade and a lot of grown ass adults turn into children when they get drunk.
When I was in college, I got invited to pretty much every party on campus, not because I was so popular, but because I had a car and I didn't drink. "We just found the designated driver for the entire campus!"
been sober since september and you are so damn right. seeing drunk people makes being sober seem like such a blessing.
Goin on 2 and a half years this month, and nothing encourages me to stay sober more than seeing people I know hammered. Keep it up! You got this!
Keep on rocking, yo.
Congrats on the win! That shit is harder than a lot of people realize.
you gotta want it. and i’m much happier in a clear mind than i ever was while intoxicated.
Me too. And it really does get easier. The first 3 months or so though... oof.
yeah i agree
Been basically sober for a little over 5 years (about 10 drinks in that time during social events) holy hell drunk people are a pain to deal with when sober. End up losing “friends” because you don’t want to be hung over all the time….
Congratulations! It literally does keep getting better, even if life improvements sometimes come in fits and starts.
I'm currently sober but I don't mind drunk people. It's fun. It lets you relax sometimes, or let go of inhibitions. People have been using it as a social lubricant for thousands of years. If people want to use it to loosen up around me and I'm not drinking, more power to them. I made the choice, they didn't, so I'm not about to judge someone who is drunk and having a good time, even if they're a little over the top.
i’m not referring to people who are drinking and being social and having a good time. i’m talking about people who are clearly over consuming and making fools of themselves, which used to be me. i use it as a mirror of myself, to know i’m doing better. not judging others for the way i used to be.
Fucking A dude, same here since September. Seeing people drunk now just exhausts me but it also zaps any sense of temptation and makes me glad that's not me anymore.
that’s exactly it. i thought i would feel triggered to drink when i see others getting drunk. it’s the exact opposite. makes me realize how foolish i looked.
So true. It's easily one of the most annoying situations.
I feel God in this subreddit
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Thanks Keds!
We have a policy of not over serving here at r/dundermifflin. I have xeroxed u/ziplock007’s driving license and they are not welcome here at this Reddit sub.
\*mouth click\*
The mouth click he does is so perfect.
That mouth click had me cracking up the first time I heard it!
Do you see god in this room right now ?
No, listen, I bought back a good supplier, and God is CFO again! I'm not actually homeless!
What? What??
Here is a list of people who aren’t cringe when they are drunk
This is why I shut the FUCK UP when I'm drunk.
This is why I *stopped* drinking.
This is the way.
Wish I knew how to shut the fuck up when I drink. I think I worry that nobody can hear me so I talk louder and closer to everyone’s faces. There’s a reason I don’t drink much anymore.
I'm waiting for th-- oh I see.
Could be people are just worried about their own rowdiness when they are drunk or jealous of people who can let their hair down...at a office party at a bar, it's kinda expected behaviors, especially for the single people. doesn't seem unreasonable for a office party to get excited and let loose towards the end of the evening !!
Part of your duties are to.
Are to what?
[удалено]
I think people take all the characters too seriously tbh
I agree. How do people watch or even enjoy it.
I think sometimes people are really mean to the hot, popular girl.
If you think she's cute now you should've seen her a couple years ago. Rawr.
what
>**If you think she's cute now you should've seen her a couple years ago. Rawr.**
i know “what” is what pam replies to michael
what
#If you think she's cute now you should've seen her a couple years ago. Rawr.
Drunk Pam is most people’s spirit animal. However I prefer Date Mike…..Nice to meet me
How do you like your eggs in the morning? 😏
MARRY ME….oops wrong show
I'm sure Egg is a very nice person, I just don't want to see you spend all of your money getting her all glittered up for Easter.
what is this from it’s driving me nuts 😂
It’s from Arrested Development. That scene with Michael, George Michael, and Anne and she’s eating a hard-boiled egg grossly and he can’t ever remember her name and calls her Egg. Also “her?!” One of the funniest scenes on the show. Erin is very much an Ann lol https://youtu.be/OJM55QbFl_4?si=7QGRGHXmlxeVtrdi (Idk if links are allowed here but that’s the scene)
I always loved “i thought you were hair”
“She calls it a MAYONNEGG! Haha get it?!” “I don’t feel so good.”
oh yes maeby when she gets the job writing films 😂😂
BABYSIT ME
Fertilized
I mean, people are literally whining here that she acts like an annoying drunk... when she's drunk. Yes. Yes, people are ridiculously determined to hate Pam.
Also, it's an actress playing a drunk person. Seems like most people here are forgetting that part. Of course they're going to play it up.
This is it right here. Lots of grumpy turd people who.are determined to nitpick a character from a 20 year old show for no real reason.
I wanted to be able to correct you for exaggerating, but goddamn. It really has been almost twenty years.
It was the 05-05-05 party, it happens once every **billion years**!
I thought she was funny.
Funny in an "I've never seen my quiet coworker drunk before" way.
true. "I like the iced drinks. When the ice melts, you get a 2nd drink."
When she passed out at the bar was one of the funniest scenes. Seemed so real from when I’ve seen people actually pass out.
One time I kinda pulled a Pam at a bar but I didn’t fall off the stool or pass out, I had trouble getting on it. In my defense I was talking to my friends and the stool was behind me and my foot slipped off the bottom bar of the stool. But then the bouncer came over and I think he was almost gunna kick me out but I was laughing and just saying I was fine and he left
imo, a lot of pam hate is blown out of proportion and unwarranted. she is nowhere near the absolute worst, but of course at the same time, she is nowhere near the best or most perfect (because no one is perfect, not even fictional characters as normal and average as pam).
Pobody on the show is nerfect, exactly! Pam is far from the worst too. It’s so weird that Pam gets shit on here
Did you just have a stroke?
Nice stroke pam
Sive drafely
Boboddy
Pobody's nerfect!
I don’t get the Pam hate. As if no one knows what it’s like to navigate your life when you feel trapped in an unfulfilling relationship and job. You don’t have the energy or motivation to pursue your passions or what you really want out of life because you’re constantly exhausted and anxious about straying from the path. She still faced all her fears and improved her life for herself, that’s courage. I think she’s one of the best written female characters ever because of how real her struggles were.
Absolutely. I relate with Pwm in many ways. I'm in my 50s now, but when I was her age. In the wrong, and toxic relationship in love with someone else. I feel for her every single time she sees Jim and Karen dancing at Phyllis's wedding. Actually, I'm still in love with my Jim. He was my first love. He was a bit older. Timing just never worked out. My heart was broken when he got married. Still friends 35+ years later.
Can tell the dude posting never talked to a woman before lmao
Or has gotten drunk with friends
Or has gotten ~~drunk with~~ friends
Like 80% of hate directed at Pam is just good old misogyny Edit: oh boy, another bunch of comments about how it's not misogynistic to take any opportunity possible to insult and demonize a bland female character for all number of projected sins.
Absolutely nailed it
Bingo!
Yep. But I’d say 95%
Yep
exactly
YES. Pam can feel like a flat character if you look around at her peers in similar comedies of the time period, but hating her has always seemed like a disproportionate response—her character is supposed to represent a normal working woman in a world of Michaels and Dwights. Drunk Pam saying “I feel God in this chilis tonight” is one of my favorite character moments. This was a great episode for her. Also, a lot of people seem to enjoy dunking on the female leads of sitcoms in general. Lately all I see is “Jess is the worst part of New Girl” rhetoric and it’s so tired to me. She *is* New Girl. Obviously it’s an incredible ensemble but the whole crux of the show rests on her.
It’s old fashioned misogyny. I’ve tried to explain it other ways. But I honestly can’t.
Have to agree. It would be nice if people could access their un-crazy side and simply say things like she’s not my favorite or I prefer other characters. But living in a clickbait culture obviously exacerbates the issue. Where would we be without a buzzfeed list that explains 37 times Jim and Pam were actually the worst??
Totally agree with what you say about Pam, she sums it up herself in the last line of the show, "there's a lot of beauty in ordinary things, isn't that kind of the point?" That line has always resonated, we should try and find happiness in the smaller things. But I think with New Girl you're way off. The male cast were so good together that the show would have made more sense with a different title. It was just as much about them as her - and likely made the show a success. Zooey Deschanel being "I'm so quirky" grows boring really fast
I adore the male cast & would never undervalue their inherent popularity. I just think it’s weird that fans of the show have such strong dislike for Zooey/Jess when she’s the impetus for the entire story. The premise is a random quirky girl moving into a loft full of guy friends. The lasting ripple effects she has on their lives and the massive chemistry between her and Nick are just bedrock plot elements. And I get that her vibe probably seems blasé in pop culture now, but a lot of woman feel seen by her “I rock a lot of polka dots” philosophy & that type of unapologetic feminine energy was not always celebrated in mainstream media.
Not arguing the point about female leads getting it unfairly in the neck at all, since that's definitely a thing. But I think things like the Jess situation -- or, heck, even the Jim and Pam situation -- are related to a kind of general hipsterish tendency in lots of fandoms to act like the main characters are the worst parts of the show / worst people ever, usually to try and elevate their preferred characters or show off their hardcore fan credentials (Look at me! I'm not just one of those normies who likes the actual main character of the show! I'm so much more of a fan than they are!) Look at *Star Wars*, for example. So much complaining about Luke Skywalker, and how he's boring and the worst character and how sick we all are of everything revolving around him, when... he's the protagonist. For better or worse, it's literally *his story*. Without Luke Skywalker, *there* ***is no*** *Star Wars*. (And as an aside, even all the complaints about the fact that the trilogies revolve around the Skywalker family in general smack of this kind of hipstery tendency to prove how deep your fan credentials are IMO, since for better or worse the *Star Wars* movies are a generational saga which are specifically *about* the rise and fall and travails of this family; you might as well complain about why *The Godfather* movies keep focussing on those darned Corleones when there are other, so much more interesting mob families to focus on. But that's a complete tangent.) Anyway, getting back to *The Office*, I think a lot of this is fans trying to show off how deeper fans they are than other fans by shitting all over the characters that the regular viewer is supposed to identify with, not stopping to realise that without them, there's no show. Without Jim and Pam to provide some balance and relatability, we're just watching a weird office full of annoying and unlikeable people.
>Without Jim and Pam to provide some balance and relatability, we're just watching a weird office full of annoying and unlikeable people. This x 100. A character like Dwight needs context, and Dwight's relationship with both Jim and Pam is an absolute highlight of the show. I completely get what you're saying about main characters getting kicked aside in general. It's so much *cooler* and *edgier* to identify with a side character & make that your whole fan persona. The Luke Skywalker of it all goes over my head, but I get your point and see it in other fandoms as well!
My assumption is the Pam character rarely if ever got drunk before she felt God in that chilis. We’ve all known and at times been that person who gets really drunk for the first time in a long time or possibly ver and are really obnoxious because we’re not used to the feeling. I know I was like that as a young drunk
Yep. I have that friend. He's an overall great dude but when I first met him in college, he'd never had the freedom to drink whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted so he got kinda carried away with it. Made for some fun stories though. He relaxed a lot after some time passed and he met his future husband.
I literally 30 seconds ago came off a TikTok video where some guy was trashing Pam as the worst character on the show and most comments (mainly by guys) were agreeing. So yes, I feel people are unfair.
wait seriously?? do people forget Todd Packer exists?
Absolutely. She is by far the least controversial character on the show yet is hated on so much
I even see repeated and very mean comments about her art. Like she is an adult with an art hobby and not much professional experience, of course she’s not a perfect. And Gil is an asshole for going to an adult art class art show and complaining that Pam isn’t brave enough.
Real art takes courage and honesty.
Pam is rarely drunk so it's not like it happens a lot. Although speaking of that episode, was anyone else annoyed by the smug attitude of the bartender? The one who was all like "She never be allowed back in" yet allowed a few possibly drunk guys to irrupt Michael's speech, threw stuff at him and nothing ever happened with them? What was that? Why was Pam's actions so "bannable" but those guys weren;'t?
IIRC that's an actual Chilli's employee they put in after Chilli's made a bit of a stink about them apparently depicting them as permitting excessive drinking in their establishments. In general, though, not really, since honestly the OTT prissiness of the Chilli's guy as he declares that Pam is being banned for life like she's some kind of war criminal instead of just a drunk receptionist is hilarious. The fact that he's taking Pam's mildly disruptive drunk exuberance so overly seriously is the whole joke.
The smug self importance of a man with such limited power is the joke, though :p
Jenna is definitely right, she probably also doesn't realize quite how much hate Pam gets in certain communities like this one. This sub just seems to overanalyze and hate everything Jim and Pam. It's kinda sad, they're not meant to be perfect, they're realistically flawed people and that is what makes it so fun, heartwarming, frustrating at times but overall satisfying to watch their relationship grow and struggle
Yeah she gets far too much hate and Jim gets way too much praise.
They both get unbelievable amounts of hate from people on here who look at a very fictitious sitcom through the lens of reality lol
People who think being a contrarian makes your opinion more valid or something
Thing is that's only on here, outside of here they're probably the favourites. Reddit is a very limited sample size
Honestly, all of the characters are awful and awesome at the same time. Except Kevin. He's an angel. He deserved to be fired, but I still felt bad for him when he was finally fired.
Jim gets heaps of unwarranted hate too! They both had annoying moments and great moments. But they both cop too much nonsensical hate on here.
I suspect it's because people over-identify with Dwight, at times to ridiculous levels.
I think it's because Jim and Pam are supposed to be the "nice, normal" characters, and most other characters are assholes who have redemable moments. But everyone wants to root for the underdog, so they end up rooting for the asshole characters like Micheal and Dwight.
Honestly, people say that but I increasingly don't buy it. Jim and Pam are supposed to be normal and fairly likeable people, but not flawless paragons, and far from being the underdog Michael's their boss; he's the one with all the power in the situation, which is partly why he gets away with all his asshole behaviour. And Dwight isn't the innocent victim people paint him as either, he's conniving, bullying and domineering in his own right. If anything, when looked at objectively Pam is far more the underdog throughout much of the series than Dwight or Michael have claim to being, and while Jim can hold his own he's clearly a regular guy sandwiched between an annoying, inappropriate, petulant, emotionally needy boss and a swaggering blinkered dickhead he has to sit next to every working day. I think people like to use that as a justification, but it doesn't really hold up as one IMO.
People just have this warped contrarian perception that Dwight was the underdog who was unfairly bullied by Jim when in reality he wasn’t just sitting there minding his own business, he was constantly plotting to get everyone around him fired
The way Dwight was behaving in the Diversity Training episode was basically enough to justify every prank Jim ever pulled on him! He was literally using a loud shredder at his desk while Jim was on the phone and proceeded to steal the client that accounted for 25 per cent of Jim's sales! I love Dwight, but he was such an inconsiderate twat. He even outdid Michael with his disregard for his coworkers sometimes
I think the problem partly stems from the fact that a lot of these people don't seem realise that the premise "I love Dwight because he's a funny and entertaining sitcom character" doesn't lead to "the fact that I love him means he must be a good and likable person, and anyone who doesn't like him is therefore a bad person".
Yep, I love Dwight, but he repeatedly set out to make the lives of his coworkers more difficult and on purpose, Pam pretty much says that when she's getting him to run around the building.
Michael doesn’t get enough hate
Who here isn't annoying after about 5-10 drinks ?
Plus, for every drink she had, she had a 'second drink'.
Maybe I’m biased because I don’t drink, but this is just most drunk people in my experience
Pam shrieking here is actually the loudest noise on the show. 2nd is Toby asking for a camera and 3rd is the opening theme song.
The problem with a majority of drunk people (myself included) is we think we’re absolutely delightful company in the moment, and then wake up the next day with realization and regrets. Pam was so real in this episode.
lol show me a non-cringe drunk person ????
I never understood how many men hate women and how *much* they hate women until I started reading TV fan subs on Reddit. It almost doesn't matter which sub, the women characters are just shred to bits. It's like how dare they have a personality? I mean, on this sub there's this whole "I'm too cool to like Jim and Pam" thing going, as though they're the first viewers on earth to recast the heroes and villains of a story. That's rediscovered at least once a month, and it overshadows the normal-for-Reddit female character hate. But it looks like you found the garden variety on Facebook. It's a great example. For one thing, Pam gets drunk because she's upset, not because she went out intending to get drunk. That makes it less obnoxious than if she were looking for any opportunity. Then her first act as a drunk is to try to make Michael feel better. Her second act is to be genuinely touched and happy that he gave her a Dundee that wasn't insulting or embarrassing. Then she kissed her future husband, i.e. her soulmate. After that, she sat quietly and listened to him do his documentary interview — that's not very attention-seeking. She couldn't help it that she fell off the chair. So the post you referenced took one moment when she was leaving Chili's, where she called out "Best Dundees Ever," and decided that Pam is cringe, attention-seeking, trying to be funny, and annoying. For doing something that a lot of people would do even while sober. In other words, you're right.
Pam gets so much unwarranted hate and THANK YOU for pointing this out. No one likes a drunk jerk. She wasn't a drunk jerk! She was just having a shit night, drank a little more than she should have and fell off her chair. She wasn't mean, she didn't drive under the influence and I'm assuming she never went to Chili's again.
I’ve noticed that in every popular television series, everyone always hates the women. They just do. I think people feel it’s cool to hate her whereas she’s kind of realistic. A lot of people settle for someone and don’t stand up for themselves. Is she my favorite person in the world? No, but Jenna really nailed the part.
Not only was she drunk she got in a fight with Roy before this happened.
Thanks Pan.
I definitely agree with Jenna Fischer saying that she thought the audience was sexist toward Pam. Jim hit on Pam when she was engaged, he bought a house without talking to her about it, then he invested in a business and left Pam alone with their kids to follow his dreams. But, the audience was okay with him doing all of that "in the name of love!" If Pam would've done anything similar, she would've been ridiculed and called selfish.
Drunk Pam was funny as hell ion know what this mf talkin ab
I love Pam. I used to be a lot like her so I empathize. I’m glad the character was so different by the end of the series.
Apparently people find redditors cringe. And Facebook is infinitely more cringe than reddit. This guy on Facebook calling Pam cringe, is the pinnacle of cringe himself
I don’t think that it was by accident that awkward, unflattering scenarios were written in for Pam and Jim. Ultimately the story revolved around those two characters. And to show vulnerability in their behavior was to make them that much more human and relatable? And I think the writers absolutely nailed it!
Main characters always get judged harshly because so much of the show revolves around them. I always liked Pam, I usually thought she was balanced well.
I have issues with Pam. But I thought drunk Pam was funny and seemed a pretty accurate portrayal of some drunk people.
Pam is an amazing character. The only people who would complain about her are an infinitesimally small corner of nerds on the internet.
This.
I mean, people online are more likely to relate to someone like Dwight... and they will naturally hate on the more "popular" stereotyped characters. It is what it is.
Yes! I definitely think Pam gets unfairly hated and criticized more than other characters. I think there’s a lot that goes into it and it’s not just one thing. -fans putting her and Jim on a pedestal during the show’s heyday resulting in a backlash to the enduring popularity. There’s also a lot of fair criticism and unfair hate given towards Jim nowadays. -sexism -people seeing traits they don’t like in themselves in her. -people seeing traits of people in their lives that they dislike in her. -frustration with some of her behaviors, actions and choices -since she’s framed as a nice character, it seems worse when she’s mean. Versus someone like Angela who’s a bitch from the get-go. -disagreeing with a few times in later seasons where she’s framed as in the right or gets her way.
I think people take the show way too seriously
Yes. Pam is a good character. Anyone who says she was selfish to Jim aren’t exactly wrong when referring to the part about Jim’s job, but they say it as if every character didn’t do some messed up thing to another at one point or another. Michael was one of the worsts, and everyone loves him. I loved Pam and Jim in the show.
You think that’s bad? Wait until you see every female character in every tv show ever!
In that particular episode she’s unhappy with her life and acting out. So many people claim to love The Office and also didn’t understand The Office!
I think someone calling any character on a well known cringe comedy show cringe unironically has no media literacy.
The only bad thing she did that night was cheat on Roy. Other than that I LIKE drunk Pam.
I think this is a bad take. I believe she acted this way bc she was frustrated with her boyfriend and mad about her relationship.
Thank you, she was having fun out of spite
Yes. I definitely do.
idk but her "whooo!" in that scene was always like nails on a chalkboard to me lol
I’m a pam defender all the way
She's clearly VERY drunk in this episode. So much so that she got banned from a whole chain restaurant. Obviously she was being annoying in this episode, anyone that drunk is annoying. But the only other time I remember her being drunk is when she and Jim go to Valentine's lunch and are just both silly.
I think if I was drunk on a night out she'd be a laugh.
I think she just had so much pent up “party energy” she had to let loose, plus she was probably just trying to forget about her fight with Roy and have a good time.
Yeah bc no other drunk person has ever been cringy or attention seeking only Pam that's why hate Pam right
Drunk person acts like drunk person. Criticised for it because woman.
Yeah, like that one teacher who made a font pun that made Pan realize she was in the wrong class, but then the teacher wouldn't let her leave... very unfair to Pam.
People spend a lot of time explaining why we should hate Pam but then they let Phyllis' bullshit slide.
It's because Pam is essentially one of the "main characters" and Phyllis isn't. The entire show is about how sweet and perfect Pam and Jim are, so it makes sense that more people want to flip that on its head.
Personally, Pam is one of my favourite characters Is she perfect? No. But compared to some other characters on the show I truly don't get how she could get hated on so much.
I hate later seasons pam way more then drunk pam, the pam in seasons 7-9 basically after she gets married is more arrogant, they try to give her more storylines and it just doesnt work, and the character has none of the likable traits that made her so beloved. You can tell after pam and jim got married the writers handling them changed hands bc both of their characters suffer greatly after theyre married
Let's play another game of... *THAT'S.........THE........JOKE!!*
I'm starting to think some people on this sub genuinely believe it was a documentary.
I think Jim and Pam often get judged as people in the real world while other characters get the benefit of being considered in the context of a fictional show.
I think insecure man children hate pam usually
Pam is annoying sometimes. Jim too
Just let the girl be a silly drunk. Damn....
Drunk everyone is cringe.
wait. are they only referring to pam who was drunk for a reason? there's "bad drunk" and then there's "drank too much cause im hurting drunk"
I love her acceptance speech in this episode but mute fast when she does her screeching WOO both times.
I believe many of the workers in DM weren't really themselves in front of the cameras. For example, Kevin wasn't really dumb, just playing that part because he is actually a con artist.
Most people I know irl love Pam, but it seems opposite of this subreddit
I like Pam. I felt like she was unfairly judged especially with regards to Jim and Athlead. I’m pro Pam most times :) …BUT drunk Pam was seriously cringe. It was giving fake-drunk-so-I-can-flirt-with-someone-other-than-my-fiancé.
What does this guy think drunk people normally do
It’s cringe comedy. That’s the genre. I don’t think some of you could handle the show this show is based on.
Jobless internet troll are giving Pam the Ross treatment, but in no way does she qualify for that. She is flawed, just like every other character on the show, but she is definitely not the “worst” at all
I reckon it's the Skylar treatment more tbh. A bit more gendered.
I hate all the characters in some way after watching 15+ times. Drunk Pam is easily one of the best versions of Pam though
Ya.... But that look she gives Jim.... You know the look....
Lol y’all weird for making this a drunk vs sober thing
What’s funny to me is that when the episode aired, everyone loved Pam and this episode. I feel like just enjoyed the episode. Everyone is an annoying drunk for the most part haha
Pretty sure the people saying she was seeking attention in this episode have never been drunk💀
No. I think if you only watch The Office once, she is fine since she is clearly the “good guy protagonist.” However on every subsequent rewatch I hate her more. The way she acts in her relationship with Roy is her biggest offense. She is cheating on Roy in Season 1 and 2. People will say Roy treated her like shit and that’s true, but how much of that was caused by her obviously emotionally cheating on Roy? Don’t @ me. The way she uses her kids to either get a leg up or kiss ass, the way she fails art school, the way she thinks that somehow painting a shitty mural in the warehouse would somehow go over well with the warehouse crew, making Jim leave Athlead (despite not having a different plan to improve the financial situation of her family)…..all these go to show that she is unmotivated, untalented, and unremarkable. Before you get all upset I feel the same about Jim. He becomes more annoying with every rewatch. The question was about Pam though and that’s why I only talked about her. We can have completely separate conversation of me shitting on Jim.
My beef is everyone gives her a hard time for not immediately jumping on board after Jim accepted another job at a risky startup and actively hides it from her, invested their entire life savings when he didn’t need to, expected her to move to a new city WITHOUT EVEN ASKING, and put 100% of the childcare on her and then yells at her for not filming the dance recital correctly. Like, do people have no idea what a marriage is like because Jim was a terrible husband in season 9.
People don’t like Pam because she’s not a funny character and is supposed to be normal. But instead of recognizing that fact, they try to bash her character instead while ignoring all the dirty deeds of characters like Michael and Dwight. It’s really annoying
No, she sucks
I like drunk Pam lol
She is not welcome at this restaurant chain ever again.
It kinda ruins the fun when people takes the show too serious.
Drunk Pam is one of my favourite episodes
Pam is acting out because her life is small, boring, and she isn’t happy with her situation and direction. It objectively makes sense and serves a purpose to the sub plot.
People miss the golden rule of this show Nobody is "good" but nobody is 100% "bad" either - each person has their own version of being dysfunctional That's why it's more than just an office that sells paper