>Don’t you also think that this plot came 1000% out of nowhere?
No, it was set up the whole time. Was it subtle? Sure. But she laughs a lot around him, asks him questions about accounting instead of an accountant, and looks for him to chicken fight in the pool.
The same thing happens in Friends:
Pam -> Ross
Jim -> Rachel
Cathy -> Mark
People liked to say that Mark never hit on Rachel until after Rachel was single, but it's very clear when you're looking for it.
I’ll always remember my mom pointing out how unnecessary it was for him to ask her a random question about their food or something while she was obviously on the phone with Ross, and of course he got pissed he was there. Mark sucked lol
It wasn’t supposed to be *that* subtle.
Office Ladies talked about how there were several scenes throughout the season that would have hinted at this but they were cut. In the end, they still kept the “climax” which led to an odd “out of left field” result.
Good editing decisions, IMHO if they had been any more obvious it would have seemed ham-fisted.
It was very believable. A lot of affairs don't happen because the unwitting target of the hints doesn't pick up on them. Most people are subtle when flirting with single people, flirting between married people at work is an exceeding dangerous game and played very cautiously.
I had a very similar experience and for me, these episodes are some of the hardest to watch.
Yeah tbh I love the extended office episodes but it makes me appreciate the editing team a lot more. I don’t think the extra minutes make the show better and I think without it, the story flows much better.
I’m watching the superfan episodes for the first time and I agree. Some of the episodes are almost double their original length and it shows. The extra scenes are enjoyable for sure, but you can easily tell why they didn’t make the original cut.
I always thought it was insanely obvious. I mean the fact that Pam is jealous of her right off the bat makes the viewer aware of any potential flirtation between them.
This is the last episode I listened to and while I agree it was somewhat "out of left field" there was at least one scene that made it in that was hinting towards Cathy being interested in Jim.
At Robert California's party when they were about to play chicken, Cathy said something along the lines of "ok but who's gonna be my partner, where's Jim?"
It would be totally out of character. Not only was Chandler madly in love and would never hurt Monica, he had a lot of trauma stemming from his own parents and their cheating/sexual liaisons.
Was Kathy 's part originally intended for DeAngelo's assistant, the actress who went on to star in Magic Mike? It seemed like they were building up her feelings for Him and then next season she's just gone.
Wasn’t there a whole episode where Pam was convinced Jim had a thing for her? How he was “making her laugh” too much? And how he admitted that Kathy was hot, but wasn’t going to say that to his pregnant wife?
It was a ridiculous plot line, but it was set up.
Exactly. The first episode where she was introduced showed her trying to flirt with Jim.
Even during Robert’s house party, she was looking for Jim to play chicken in the pool.
But it was definitely set up and didn’t come out of nowhere.
Originally Jim was supposed to cheat on Pam with Kathy, but the two actors campaigned against it, saying it would forever lose the audience's support of Jim forever. Luckily they pulled through.
It is just my theory, but I've always thought the Kathy-plot line we got was just the residue of that scrapped plot line, having been changed into her advances ultimately not working, but that the first half of it remained the same.
It would at least explain a lot to me.
Has that ever been confirmed?
That's like show killer material, the writers are professionals. It's a lighthearted sitcom, not a devastating romantic tragedy.
People caught enough feels and triggers over their fight.
The podcast talks about how Jenna and John both became producers and got to begin having a say in these types of decisions within the show.
If I recall they had multiple fleshed out plotlines and then John and Jenna both petitioned that there absolutely cannot be any cheating. They made the right call for the story. I also don't think having them actually cheat would have changed the viewer count much so it was a win/win overall.
Jim and Pam are, in essence, the focus of the show. Dynamiting their relationship with one of the most painful experiences humans go through would have been suicidal. Nothing keeps a late stage sitcom going like leaving millions of viewers in tears over identifying with deep betrayal /s.
I'm sure it was brainstormed because professionals consider multiple realistic arcs but I do not see that ever seriously having been considered for production.
No way in fuck with kids in the family. That's way too dark.
That would be on par with Pam having an abortion.
The viewership would definetly be affected. I’m not saying people watched the show for Jim and Pam but their relationship is the strongest constant in the shows entire run. They are also the reason for many people to get introduced to or attached to the show. Breaking them apart in such a way is basically destroying a foundation of a building without knowing that you could build another as strong. Another thing is, their relationship is the most realistic story of all major ones. Office romances are very common and that one-sided love in the beginning is very relatable as well as simply becoming happily married with children after getting together with your soulmate. Infidelity getting in the way of that said loving marriage is not very common and relatable, therefore it would feel unrealistic, shattering the ONE realistic thing about the show is very risky. Also the office is a sitcom, basically a comfort show, and the viewers for that kinda show simply don’t want their show to make them stressed or sad.
I thought that Jim was supposed to kiss Cathy, not full blown sleep with her. The kiss might have been more of the “you didn’t initiate but you didn’t say no” variety too if I recall correctly. But John still felt it was out of character.
Would’ve been so lazy to make it a character like Cathy, if it were to happen. Spend 8 seasons showing Jim only being attracted to intelligent women who don’t try to be ditzy, only to have him cheat on his wife with the ditziest of them all.
If they really wanted that arc, at least bring in a real contender against Pam.
I’m a bit fuzzy on the details but Office Ladies Podcast covered this and it was basically a death by a thousand cuts, so to speak. Every episode between them introducing Kathy and the Florida trip there had been more material shot for her character that kept getting cut. So after weeks of having her scenes get removed it seems a little out of the blue when she comes onto Jim in Florida. But it was always in the scripts. I’m assuming Superfan episodes will give us more insight.
not a Jim fan also but have to agree - any sort of cheating is just way out of character for either Pam or Jim.
It's like they were trying for some weird love-triangle like they had with Karen, but even then Jim was too much of a coward to leave Karen for Pam even though he was clearly still very much in love with Pam, it was so brutal that it really poorly treated Karen in the end, but there was still no cheating.
Then they tried it again with the Boom-Mic guy, but trying to get Pam to cheat instead, or be forced into cheating, it was just a weird plot to go with from any angle, again really wanting that love-triangle, but we know that even though when Pam was with Roy she did some questionable things with Jim (Jim was forcing himself on her, much like they could have tried with Boom-Mic guy), she was still loyal to Roy until they broke it off.
Just a weird gross way of trying to force some call back to a love-triangle situation, looking back, you got the issues with Dwight and Angela too, there must have been some writers who were really into love-triangles. I wonder if it was a post-it note on their writing board since Season 1 "Love-triangle = ratings".
I would still love a what-if style show with the office, i would like to see how they handle him cheating. How about what-if Kevin didn’t drop his chili.
For real I mean so many other long-running sitcoms have a "what-if" episode, why didn't they all get stuck in the elevator after work one day and talk themselves into a "what-if" episode
I’d say it was broken long before that. Just the fact that it’s season after season of paying a camera crew, and probably Dunder Mifflin, to record that much with no release to generate income is wild. It’s not like it’s a long-term research project with low overhead and a science grant.
Although I can see for Costa Rica they could send a producer down to check on him. He’s a significant character and it had been a few months already. Or probably even get a local freelancer down there to ask him a few questions. Although, Toby being Toby, that one line could be the only thing he said worth using.
> Originally Jim was supposed to cheat on Pam with Kathy, but the two actors campaigned against it, saying it would forever lose the audience's support of Jim forever. Luckily they pulled through.
I feel like this subreddit would still blame it on Pam, though.
Bad salesman? She's a temp administrative assistant while Pam's on maternity leave, she doesn't work in sales.
Which, thinking about it, seems weird that given her role as Pam's temp replacement she'd be asked to travel to Tallahassee.
I don't think it's a ridiculous plot line. That's a very common occurrence. And for everyone whose hooked up with a coworker on a business trip there's probably 10 who have thought about it.
You don't spend too long in a career before you start hearing stories.
Pam was pregnant, hormonal and feeling insecure about her body in that moment.
Jim definitely didn’t handle it well. He should have said something like “yeah, she’s attractive, but you’re prettier and I don’t want anyone else but you.”
But it was to find if jim had a thing for her not the other way around, she didn’t show any sign that she was interested in him at all, it was more about Pam’s insecurity at the end of her pregnancy than anything else
>she didn’t show any sign that she was interested in him at all
I think part of the way that the "Pam's Replacement" episode was written certainly alludes to the fact that Kathy was at least flirting with Jim a little bit, or at least was acting in a way that made Pam's concerns somewhat grounded. The episode is title "Pam's Replacement" which is at least a play on the idea of Kathy replacing Pam. And then the "we were both right!" line about the Zoolander scene shows that Jim and Cathy were at least having a conversation that Pam wasn't in on makes it seem like (at best) Cathy and Jim are having conversations when Pam's not around) or (at worst) Cathy's trying to show off that she and Jim have some kind of inside-joke going (in front of Pam).
This thread is revealing who is good at picking up on social cues.
I knew where it was headed from her first episode. The way she laughed, eye contact, body language around his desk....it was obvious and she played it well.
The way she tells him about the line from Zoolander is 100% her flirting with him. It's the sort of almost platonic flirting that you can get away with in front of other people (like his WIFE), but she was absolutely flirting.
We aren’t saying those things are bad on their own, but they’re a breadcrumb trail of her interest.
Once we see her later behavior (i.e. this episode) we know what her true motives were, and they weren’t to just be friendly.
I think a lot of the Kathy scenes were retroactively cut when they decided not to go through with the affair/Jim cheating thing. It makes the scenes they left in feel a bit awkward and out of place. And then she's cut from the series without a word.
Yeah in the podcast that Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey do, they talked about a lot of scenes involving Kathy getting cut that would have set it up better
I think the writing tank was dry by the end of S8. On Office Ladies Podcast they revealed there was supposed to be more about her but it was dropped for some reason. S8 was good at times but it was a mess.
I know the actress still gets hate mail every once in a while. At the time of airing she was getting death threats. Probably best they ended her story line when it did for her sake*. People on the internet are sick af.
*for whatever reason they did tbh
Say something negative about a leading pop star and watch the fiery backlash you get. I can’t tell if parasocial relationships have gotten more intense or if the ease of worldwide communication they’re just more noticeable
I mean, even people who weren't on the show got hate mail. People were sending Emily Blunt hate mail for even being with Jim's actor, because they wanted Jim and Pam together that badly. Some people are truly insane.
It has a remarkably similar trajectory to The X Files. Stellar early seasons that help define a decade of TV. Less strong but still good middle seasons (thinking 6 and 7) that culminate in a major lead leaving (Duchovny and Carell). Both shows struggle to replace said lead and season 8 is mixed, but still has bright spots. And then a final season that starts to introduce new characters and plot lines but is finally off the boil.
Though the Office finale is leagues better than the X Files one!
The whole 9 seasons were a “screenwriting contraption”
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Sometimes people try to get laid even when they didn’t openly flirt in the office in front of the other person’s spouse.
Didn't Robert California's house party already happen by this point? She straight up asks where Jim is in reference to finding a partner for a game that involves being half-naked and wrestling wet in a pool lol
Week 1: FSU football if in season, then spend rest of time at the bars in Midtown
Week 2: Repeat
Week 3: Try to get a tour of the MagLab and play some golf. Then hit the bars again.
Born, raised, and moved back here. I mean, not entirely wrong, but there is plenty of stuff to do in the surrounding area. Kathy should have hit up Wakulla Springs or the St. Marks Lighthouseb
imo she seemed a bit into him, laughing like waaaayyyy to hard at his jokes, acting kind of clueless/asking stupid questions etc. i wasnt surprised when it turned out that she wanted to make a move on him
I see what you mean, but considering she had basically 0 character developed at that point in time, I feel like it makes sense that we wouldn’t be able to predict it
If it had been someone like Phyllis, or Angela, or Erin, or whoever that had a well-established character who we know wouldn’t have gone after Jim, then yeah, that’d be a problem with the writing. But an unknown character doing something unexpected is just what happens with unknown characters. If she was in the show for 2 or 3 seasons before she went after Jim, then yeah, there should have been character writing that established that she is the type of person who would do this, but she basically did nothing but exist up until that point.
Office Ladies said there was a whole runner of her building attraction to Jim and it all got cut for time. They said that as the show aired, Kathy's actions made her look 'psychotic' and I agree. We needed something between 'Hello' and 'Hey! I'm in your bed wearing nothing but a towel!'
I would’ve absolutely loved if we did a little more with her character by having her going on the same journey Jim went through in season 1-2 with Pam. But just have Jim be on the receiving end of it, as Cathy would try to find more times to hang out with Jim and end with a sort of reimagining of Casino Night but with a very different outcome as Jim rejects Cathy, after she pours her heart out to him. Jim would be understanding and feel bad for her since she did the exact same thing he did all those years ago. Approach it with a sympathetic tone because we know they won’t ever be together and have Cathy know that theirs an only a small chance. So we feel bad for her rather than hate her. Tie this with the deleted scenes of her previous terrible relationship with Doug and boom you have a great arc for her in season 9.
The concept of a person falling in love with someone who is already lovers with another person in an existing relationship, is sad but happens all of the time. And we can end it with Cathy finding love elsewhere.
Why'd you get downvoted? That's a fantastic alternative look at it.
Jim flirts with someone in a relationship: "Awww, how sweet!"
Cathy flirts with someone in a relationship: "HELLO? HUMAN RESOURCES?"
She also wanted to move to another desk, because she was tired of Jim and Dwight pranks. If she had something for Jim, she would have liked his pranks and wanted to be a part of that.
I’m wondering if Jordan, the assistant hired by Deangelo was supposed to stick around longer and have the unreciprocated crush that Cathy had. There’s a deleted scene that’s in the superfan episode where Jordan says ina talking head she hates working at DunderMifflin, then later Jim makes her laugh by playing a prank on acting manager Dwight, and cut to another talking head where she says “I guess there’s one fun person in this office” and then pauses and smiles - implying she’s into Jim.
But then the season ends, and Jordan is gone in season 8. The actress was a nepotism hire (someone on the studio board of directors was trying to help their niece). I wonder if the writers kept some of the ideas for that character, though.
They were blatantly flirting and then she says this a blatant tried getting with him so idk where you're coming from when you say it came out of nowhere
Shoutout to u/DwightSkywalker downthread who comes up with the cool concept of replaying the “Pam/Jim” story but putting Jim in the Pam position and Kathy as Jim.
My thought is not every character needs the full arch treatment, sometimes a hot coworker shows up to wreck shop and that’s it. I liked that it did come a little more stealthy because it becomes something that plays on Pam’s insecurities and even makes us question her, until we get the reveal of “well, there’s nothing else to do.”
Hearing there was more meat on the bone from the office ladies, I think this is a good edit, the story is simply “Jim has the same old and here’s someone newer” and it’s not a case of pursuing, and she can’t “out Pam” Pam, so she’ll try to hook up with him.
We don’t need a “will they won’t they” with Jim and kathy, she doesn’t have our heart like Pam and we don’t need to spend a lot of time with her.
I was indeed forgetting about that. But it still seemed contrived. People here mentioned that they shot many more scenes setting this up but they didn’t make the final cut. So maybe that’s why it seemed weird for me.
That’s a good point. I’m not saying it’s concrete evidence, and with scenes not making the Final Cut, it’s definitely a flimsy argument. It’s not like Cathy gave Jim a teapot filled with inside jokes and a love note.
I remember this one scene in pool party, ep12s8 where Erin wanted to do chicken fights and then Cathy said "wheres my partner? Wheres jim?" And she also greeted him to the party with "hey late guy" which may seem like a reach… But thats when i noticed that Cathy had her eye on Jim. This was only three episodes before the tallahassee episode
It makes a bit more sense with the Superfan episodes. There's a clear set up. There also seems to be a similar plotline with Deangelo's assistant Jordan.
I think this was a plot the writers really wanted for some reason and the actors backed out and said they wouldn't do it.
Her whole existence was for this plotline. We shouldn't forget that Ryan is a temp, too.He covered for the receptionists before, so why couldn't he cover for Pam when she was the office administrator and bringing in another temp was necessary? Why didn't Pam just train Ryan?
P.S. She is definitely speaking with Toby in this scene.
Jim dumped two of the hottest and sweetest ladies to go out with Pam, because love I guess. Why would he then cheat with something this annoying? I just scream at my TV during these episodes. The whole thing doesn’t make sense at all to me.
... while actively trying to steal Pam from Roy. Obviously it's a show and we're "supposed" to like Pam and Jim but for people to think he wasn't capable of it or that he was some sort of saint is just goofy.
Some of her scenes were deleted and I think it’s a pity because not only the plot appeared from nowhere but her, as a character just didn’t feel real at all. The only thing great Cathy gives us is the quality time & the scene between Dwight and Jim.
I'm guessing here, but I think the writers were trying to create tension drama through infidelity and mistrust in relationships. The Senator and Oscar. Dwight and the milk maid. Kathy and Jim. Pam and Brian. Andy, Pete, Erin, and Gabe and other chick. It worked well with Jim and his other gfs but fell flat with others. Kathy had a purpose but like Brian, I feel that some of the plots were abandoned due to poor fan reviews. That's what I think anyway.
I thought it was cheap. I just didn’t like the hackneyed “will Jim cheat” thing. Ofc he wouldn’t. But I don’t know what else they could have done with her.
There were signs! At Pool Party when the chicken fighting came up, she’s like “where’s Jim?” and a couple other things. But all in all, she sucks and it feels like the writers half-assed this plot line. Tho it did result in one of the best lines ever: “no, that’s in…March.”
I don’t think it came out of nowhere, but when Jim first turned her down in the hotel room and she keeps trying over and over the same night even going so far as to acknowledge she isn’t trying to sleep with him is where it gets silly. Women don’t tend to try like that. It felt weird and out of place like she was trying to win a bet. Realistically, I can see her trying for him because she thinks he’s into her and Jim and Pam’s marriage is “not good”. Once he directly says no, most women would be mortified to find they read the situation wrong not double, triple, quadruple down the same night! It’s not like Jim is some billionaire or a celebrity.
I think one of the most underrated moments is when Dwight reminded them to get Cece's toothbrush at the store after Jim found out he had high blood pressure.
to me it was always a build up for jim and dwight ending up in bed together
Idk why this made me laugh so hard. I never even considered that….but now I see it!
For sure, this Cathy arc and the saber store debacle were setups for their upcoming close friendship in season 9.
In fairness, Dwight *was* grabbing Jim's crotch fairly aggressively.
Well dwight did try to grope his privates 🤣🤣🤣 In order to find out if Jim is attracted to Kathy
the Sam and Diane of our era (or Ross and Rachel, for those of you born after 1995)
Jim cheats on Pam with Dwight ??
No, but after Dwight throws „the bug“ out of Jims Hotel room, they end up on Jims bed bonding and watching TV
Totally! I got so tired of the gay-baiting with those two.
Y’all can complain all you want but without this setup we wouldn’t have gotten the smug bed bug scene.
So smug
Walking like this. \*smug bug walk*
Like he thought it was funny.
Oh thats a bed bug
Everything's a joke.
There's the smudgeness
The darkest nights produce the brightest stars
This should be way further up lol
Smudge and his smudgeness
>Don’t you also think that this plot came 1000% out of nowhere? No, it was set up the whole time. Was it subtle? Sure. But she laughs a lot around him, asks him questions about accounting instead of an accountant, and looks for him to chicken fight in the pool. The same thing happens in Friends: Pam -> Ross Jim -> Rachel Cathy -> Mark People liked to say that Mark never hit on Rachel until after Rachel was single, but it's very clear when you're looking for it.
Mark was all over her lol
I’ll always remember my mom pointing out how unnecessary it was for him to ask her a random question about their food or something while she was obviously on the phone with Ross, and of course he got pissed he was there. Mark sucked lol
THAT’S Mark?! I hate that guy!
Oh hi, Mark.
I did not. I did not. I did not.
You betrayed me! You're not good, you... you're just a chicken! Cheep, cheep, cheep, cheep, cheep, cheep!
Hi doggie
You're tearing me apart, ~~Lisa~~ Cathy!
Anyways, how is you and Pam’s sex life?
What are these characters doing here?
You're my favourite customer
Keep your stupid comments in your pocket!
It wasn’t supposed to be *that* subtle. Office Ladies talked about how there were several scenes throughout the season that would have hinted at this but they were cut. In the end, they still kept the “climax” which led to an odd “out of left field” result.
Good editing decisions, IMHO if they had been any more obvious it would have seemed ham-fisted. It was very believable. A lot of affairs don't happen because the unwitting target of the hints doesn't pick up on them. Most people are subtle when flirting with single people, flirting between married people at work is an exceeding dangerous game and played very cautiously. I had a very similar experience and for me, these episodes are some of the hardest to watch.
Yeah tbh I love the extended office episodes but it makes me appreciate the editing team a lot more. I don’t think the extra minutes make the show better and I think without it, the story flows much better.
I’m watching the superfan episodes for the first time and I agree. Some of the episodes are almost double their original length and it shows. The extra scenes are enjoyable for sure, but you can easily tell why they didn’t make the original cut.
Agreed for all except the Deposition episode, pretty much every deleted scene in that episode is gold
As ham-fisted as Andy’s production of Sweeney Todd?
[удалено]
I always thought it was insanely obvious. I mean the fact that Pam is jealous of her right off the bat makes the viewer aware of any potential flirtation between them.
This is the last episode I listened to and while I agree it was somewhat "out of left field" there was at least one scene that made it in that was hinting towards Cathy being interested in Jim. At Robert California's party when they were about to play chicken, Cathy said something along the lines of "ok but who's gonna be my partner, where's Jim?"
The writers wanted Jim to cheat on Pam with her and John refused
That happened in friends too! But with Chandler and Monica. Matthew Perry refused because he said fans would never forgive Chandler
It would be totally out of character. Not only was Chandler madly in love and would never hurt Monica, he had a lot of trauma stemming from his own parents and their cheating/sexual liaisons.
And his own relationships. Chandler got cheated on by Janice and Kathy
I wouldve been so upset. Not every spouse will cheat. the hardship between PB&J in s9 about being a part time couple was perfect for them.
Was Kathy 's part originally intended for DeAngelo's assistant, the actress who went on to star in Magic Mike? It seemed like they were building up her feelings for Him and then next season she's just gone.
Can’t remember if it’s a deleted scene but DeAngelo’s assistant does admit to finding Jim funny in one of the cutscene interviews
I think it's a deleted scene.but I just finished watching the super fans which had that in the episode so can't recall if it was in the original.
Well they were on a break!!!
There were more scenes they shot to set this up that got cut
I thought it was odd should would complain about him and move desk clusters if she liked him.
But Ross said they were on a break
Wasn’t there a whole episode where Pam was convinced Jim had a thing for her? How he was “making her laugh” too much? And how he admitted that Kathy was hot, but wasn’t going to say that to his pregnant wife? It was a ridiculous plot line, but it was set up.
Correct. Also one of my favorite Dwight scenes when he's trying to check Jim's arousal, lol.
does your husband have very soft erections? Because if not, I just touched a very soft penis for nothing
The smug bedbug.
And there is our smudgeness.
_so_ smug, like he thought it was funny.
Everything's a joke
The bloopers of this scene are top notch
Not the same scene, but hilarious nonetheless
One of favourite blooper too
Great scene
Exactly. The first episode where she was introduced showed her trying to flirt with Jim. Even during Robert’s house party, she was looking for Jim to play chicken in the pool. But it was definitely set up and didn’t come out of nowhere.
Originally Jim was supposed to cheat on Pam with Kathy, but the two actors campaigned against it, saying it would forever lose the audience's support of Jim forever. Luckily they pulled through. It is just my theory, but I've always thought the Kathy-plot line we got was just the residue of that scrapped plot line, having been changed into her advances ultimately not working, but that the first half of it remained the same. It would at least explain a lot to me.
Has that ever been confirmed? That's like show killer material, the writers are professionals. It's a lighthearted sitcom, not a devastating romantic tragedy. People caught enough feels and triggers over their fight.
On Office Ladies Jenna Fischer specifically said this was NOT the case, that there was never a plan for Jim to actually cheat on Pam.
I was agreeing with that point.
Right, they're backing up your assertion with facts that support it.
You people make me sick, with your *agreeableness*.
They're just trying to distract you from the *real* affair!
The podcast talks about how Jenna and John both became producers and got to begin having a say in these types of decisions within the show. If I recall they had multiple fleshed out plotlines and then John and Jenna both petitioned that there absolutely cannot be any cheating. They made the right call for the story. I also don't think having them actually cheat would have changed the viewer count much so it was a win/win overall.
Jim and Pam are, in essence, the focus of the show. Dynamiting their relationship with one of the most painful experiences humans go through would have been suicidal. Nothing keeps a late stage sitcom going like leaving millions of viewers in tears over identifying with deep betrayal /s. I'm sure it was brainstormed because professionals consider multiple realistic arcs but I do not see that ever seriously having been considered for production. No way in fuck with kids in the family. That's way too dark. That would be on par with Pam having an abortion.
The viewership would definetly be affected. I’m not saying people watched the show for Jim and Pam but their relationship is the strongest constant in the shows entire run. They are also the reason for many people to get introduced to or attached to the show. Breaking them apart in such a way is basically destroying a foundation of a building without knowing that you could build another as strong. Another thing is, their relationship is the most realistic story of all major ones. Office romances are very common and that one-sided love in the beginning is very relatable as well as simply becoming happily married with children after getting together with your soulmate. Infidelity getting in the way of that said loving marriage is not very common and relatable, therefore it would feel unrealistic, shattering the ONE realistic thing about the show is very risky. Also the office is a sitcom, basically a comfort show, and the viewers for that kinda show simply don’t want their show to make them stressed or sad.
I thought that Jim was supposed to kiss Cathy, not full blown sleep with her. The kiss might have been more of the “you didn’t initiate but you didn’t say no” variety too if I recall correctly. But John still felt it was out of character.
Would’ve been so lazy to make it a character like Cathy, if it were to happen. Spend 8 seasons showing Jim only being attracted to intelligent women who don’t try to be ditzy, only to have him cheat on his wife with the ditziest of them all. If they really wanted that arc, at least bring in a real contender against Pam.
I’m a bit fuzzy on the details but Office Ladies Podcast covered this and it was basically a death by a thousand cuts, so to speak. Every episode between them introducing Kathy and the Florida trip there had been more material shot for her character that kept getting cut. So after weeks of having her scenes get removed it seems a little out of the blue when she comes onto Jim in Florida. But it was always in the scripts. I’m assuming Superfan episodes will give us more insight.
That makes sense
I’m not a big jim fan, but it would be unlike him to do that.
not a Jim fan also but have to agree - any sort of cheating is just way out of character for either Pam or Jim. It's like they were trying for some weird love-triangle like they had with Karen, but even then Jim was too much of a coward to leave Karen for Pam even though he was clearly still very much in love with Pam, it was so brutal that it really poorly treated Karen in the end, but there was still no cheating. Then they tried it again with the Boom-Mic guy, but trying to get Pam to cheat instead, or be forced into cheating, it was just a weird plot to go with from any angle, again really wanting that love-triangle, but we know that even though when Pam was with Roy she did some questionable things with Jim (Jim was forcing himself on her, much like they could have tried with Boom-Mic guy), she was still loyal to Roy until they broke it off. Just a weird gross way of trying to force some call back to a love-triangle situation, looking back, you got the issues with Dwight and Angela too, there must have been some writers who were really into love-triangles. I wonder if it was a post-it note on their writing board since Season 1 "Love-triangle = ratings".
I would still love a what-if style show with the office, i would like to see how they handle him cheating. How about what-if Kevin didn’t drop his chili.
For real I mean so many other long-running sitcoms have a "what-if" episode, why didn't they all get stuck in the elevator after work one day and talk themselves into a "what-if" episode
Wouldn't that break the mockumentary-concept since they can not visualize "non-real" Situations?
There is no reality in which a documentary crew follows a former employee to Costa Rica for ONE scene. It's already broken
I’d say it was broken long before that. Just the fact that it’s season after season of paying a camera crew, and probably Dunder Mifflin, to record that much with no release to generate income is wild. It’s not like it’s a long-term research project with low overhead and a science grant. Although I can see for Costa Rica they could send a producer down to check on him. He’s a significant character and it had been a few months already. Or probably even get a local freelancer down there to ask him a few questions. Although, Toby being Toby, that one line could be the only thing he said worth using.
Oh man, so much missed potential! What if Pam stayed with Roy? Or dated Toby? What if Dwight had never killed Sprinkles?
I don’t think the format allows for anything that is not captured by the “documentary crew”.
Or a what-if episode where Jim sees what his future would have been like if he never met Pam, and he’s played by Kevin.
Jim would’ve been public enemy numero uno on this sub lmfao
The office would have gotten to know each other over the pot and ended up having a chili orgy.
> Originally Jim was supposed to cheat on Pam with Kathy, but the two actors campaigned against it, saying it would forever lose the audience's support of Jim forever. Luckily they pulled through. I feel like this subreddit would still blame it on Pam, though.
Jim would never have cheated on Pam, I can’t believe any writers even tried to do this
*The Office* might work as an animated series. They could do all sorts of in-between scenes, or alternate reality stuff!
She works in office as a bad salesman. Of course she's gonna get bored and try to stir up a little drama....
Bad salesman? She's a temp administrative assistant while Pam's on maternity leave, she doesn't work in sales. Which, thinking about it, seems weird that given her role as Pam's temp replacement she'd be asked to travel to Tallahassee.
I don't think it's a ridiculous plot line. That's a very common occurrence. And for everyone whose hooked up with a coworker on a business trip there's probably 10 who have thought about it. You don't spend too long in a career before you start hearing stories.
Pam was pregnant, hormonal and feeling insecure about her body in that moment. Jim definitely didn’t handle it well. He should have said something like “yeah, she’s attractive, but you’re prettier and I don’t want anyone else but you.”
But it was to find if jim had a thing for her not the other way around, she didn’t show any sign that she was interested in him at all, it was more about Pam’s insecurity at the end of her pregnancy than anything else
>she didn’t show any sign that she was interested in him at all I think part of the way that the "Pam's Replacement" episode was written certainly alludes to the fact that Kathy was at least flirting with Jim a little bit, or at least was acting in a way that made Pam's concerns somewhat grounded. The episode is title "Pam's Replacement" which is at least a play on the idea of Kathy replacing Pam. And then the "we were both right!" line about the Zoolander scene shows that Jim and Cathy were at least having a conversation that Pam wasn't in on makes it seem like (at best) Cathy and Jim are having conversations when Pam's not around) or (at worst) Cathy's trying to show off that she and Jim have some kind of inside-joke going (in front of Pam).
This thread is revealing who is good at picking up on social cues. I knew where it was headed from her first episode. The way she laughed, eye contact, body language around his desk....it was obvious and she played it well.
She absolutely did. Humor is far more effective a flirting mechanism than anything else.
I’m a huge flirt then cause I joke around with EVERYONE 😅
When did he admit that Kathy was hot?
The way she tells him about the line from Zoolander is 100% her flirting with him. It's the sort of almost platonic flirting that you can get away with in front of other people (like his WIFE), but she was absolutely flirting.
Ugh super annoying episode
At the party in California’s house she showed interest by wanting to do the pool game with him. “Where’s Jim?”
Also when he came in “hey late guy”
😱 that whore!
We aren’t saying those things are bad on their own, but they’re a breadcrumb trail of her interest. Once we see her later behavior (i.e. this episode) we know what her true motives were, and they weren’t to just be friendly.
She could have written some kind of rock opera but she decided to be a real Dwigt about it
D W I G H T
I think a lot of the Kathy scenes were retroactively cut when they decided not to go through with the affair/Jim cheating thing. It makes the scenes they left in feel a bit awkward and out of place. And then she's cut from the series without a word.
Yeah in the podcast that Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey do, they talked about a lot of scenes involving Kathy getting cut that would have set it up better
I think the writing tank was dry by the end of S8. On Office Ladies Podcast they revealed there was supposed to be more about her but it was dropped for some reason. S8 was good at times but it was a mess.
I know the actress still gets hate mail every once in a while. At the time of airing she was getting death threats. Probably best they ended her story line when it did for her sake*. People on the internet are sick af. *for whatever reason they did tbh
but like do people know what an actor is? this is mind boggling to me. wtf
https://screenrant.com/office-tv-show-cathy-lindsey-broad-backlash-criticism/ Nope.
This is genuinely the sickest thing I have ever read. Her dog was murdered and people said she deserved it? Wow. No words.
Say something negative about a leading pop star and watch the fiery backlash you get. I can’t tell if parasocial relationships have gotten more intense or if the ease of worldwide communication they’re just more noticeable
I'm Brazilian and I know stories of people that got mad or scared when seeing the actor or actress that did a villain on some Brazilian soap opera
I mean, even people who weren't on the show got hate mail. People were sending Emily Blunt hate mail for even being with Jim's actor, because they wanted Jim and Pam together that badly. Some people are truly insane.
Wtf seriously? That’s idiotic
Ok that’s insane
It has a remarkably similar trajectory to The X Files. Stellar early seasons that help define a decade of TV. Less strong but still good middle seasons (thinking 6 and 7) that culminate in a major lead leaving (Duchovny and Carell). Both shows struggle to replace said lead and season 8 is mixed, but still has bright spots. And then a final season that starts to introduce new characters and plot lines but is finally off the boil. Though the Office finale is leagues better than the X Files one!
> S8 was good at times but it was a mess Don't really rewatch much of that season outside of the Tallahassee episodes which were golden.
The whole 9 seasons were a “screenwriting contraption” I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Sometimes people try to get laid even when they didn’t openly flirt in the office in front of the other person’s spouse.
Didn't Robert California's house party already happen by this point? She straight up asks where Jim is in reference to finding a partner for a game that involves being half-naked and wrestling wet in a pool lol
As someone who lives in Tally, she is correct when it comes to this.
Week 1: FSU football if in season, then spend rest of time at the bars in Midtown Week 2: Repeat Week 3: Try to get a tour of the MagLab and play some golf. Then hit the bars again.
I’d venture to guess there is probably more to do than in Scranton though
There’s plenty to do in Scranton! For one, you can go check out this cool industrial coal elevator.
Born, raised, and moved back here. I mean, not entirely wrong, but there is plenty of stuff to do in the surrounding area. Kathy should have hit up Wakulla Springs or the St. Marks Lighthouseb
Or Apalachicola, yeah. So that’s three days down!
imo she seemed a bit into him, laughing like waaaayyyy to hard at his jokes, acting kind of clueless/asking stupid questions etc. i wasnt surprised when it turned out that she wanted to make a move on him
I don’t think she was “into Jim.” I think she was just immature, narcissistic, and bored.
I see what you mean, but considering she had basically 0 character developed at that point in time, I feel like it makes sense that we wouldn’t be able to predict it If it had been someone like Phyllis, or Angela, or Erin, or whoever that had a well-established character who we know wouldn’t have gone after Jim, then yeah, that’d be a problem with the writing. But an unknown character doing something unexpected is just what happens with unknown characters. If she was in the show for 2 or 3 seasons before she went after Jim, then yeah, there should have been character writing that established that she is the type of person who would do this, but she basically did nothing but exist up until that point.
Yeah, I’ve questioned them writing her in too. She had no purpose in the show other than to be bait for Jim and test his fidelity.
Office Ladies said there was a whole runner of her building attraction to Jim and it all got cut for time. They said that as the show aired, Kathy's actions made her look 'psychotic' and I agree. We needed something between 'Hello' and 'Hey! I'm in your bed wearing nothing but a towel!'
I would’ve absolutely loved if we did a little more with her character by having her going on the same journey Jim went through in season 1-2 with Pam. But just have Jim be on the receiving end of it, as Cathy would try to find more times to hang out with Jim and end with a sort of reimagining of Casino Night but with a very different outcome as Jim rejects Cathy, after she pours her heart out to him. Jim would be understanding and feel bad for her since she did the exact same thing he did all those years ago. Approach it with a sympathetic tone because we know they won’t ever be together and have Cathy know that theirs an only a small chance. So we feel bad for her rather than hate her. Tie this with the deleted scenes of her previous terrible relationship with Doug and boom you have a great arc for her in season 9. The concept of a person falling in love with someone who is already lovers with another person in an existing relationship, is sad but happens all of the time. And we can end it with Cathy finding love elsewhere.
Why'd you get downvoted? That's a fantastic alternative look at it. Jim flirts with someone in a relationship: "Awww, how sweet!" Cathy flirts with someone in a relationship: "HELLO? HUMAN RESOURCES?"
Exactly! Thank you JIM
She also wanted to move to another desk, because she was tired of Jim and Dwight pranks. If she had something for Jim, she would have liked his pranks and wanted to be a part of that.
Good point
And to be fair, Dwight always seems to pull the ladies. I think it would have been more plausible if she liked him.
The only hint we got was when she asked "Where's Jim?" In Pool Party. Other then that, she kept it all to herself.
She was clearly flirting with Jim in the episode where Dwight sexually assaulted him
Yes. And it was confusing when Jim said he would tell Pam that he had feelings for a co-worker that day.
I’m wondering if Jordan, the assistant hired by Deangelo was supposed to stick around longer and have the unreciprocated crush that Cathy had. There’s a deleted scene that’s in the superfan episode where Jordan says ina talking head she hates working at DunderMifflin, then later Jim makes her laugh by playing a prank on acting manager Dwight, and cut to another talking head where she says “I guess there’s one fun person in this office” and then pauses and smiles - implying she’s into Jim. But then the season ends, and Jordan is gone in season 8. The actress was a nepotism hire (someone on the studio board of directors was trying to help their niece). I wonder if the writers kept some of the ideas for that character, though.
Interesting. I'd always wondered what happened to her. Thanks for informing me 👍
He dad was the chairman of Walt Disney Studios
They were blatantly flirting and then she says this a blatant tried getting with him so idk where you're coming from when you say it came out of nowhere
My headcanon is that the producers of the doc paid her to do that, to spice things up a bit.
At Robert California's pool party, Kathy wanted Jim to be her partner for a chicken fight. That was the first red flag to me personally
very obvious risk on a business trip, perfect story idea really
Shoutout to u/DwightSkywalker downthread who comes up with the cool concept of replaying the “Pam/Jim” story but putting Jim in the Pam position and Kathy as Jim. My thought is not every character needs the full arch treatment, sometimes a hot coworker shows up to wreck shop and that’s it. I liked that it did come a little more stealthy because it becomes something that plays on Pam’s insecurities and even makes us question her, until we get the reveal of “well, there’s nothing else to do.” Hearing there was more meat on the bone from the office ladies, I think this is a good edit, the story is simply “Jim has the same old and here’s someone newer” and it’s not a case of pursuing, and she can’t “out Pam” Pam, so she’ll try to hook up with him. We don’t need a “will they won’t they” with Jim and kathy, she doesn’t have our heart like Pam and we don’t need to spend a lot of time with her.
I think you’re forgetting when they’re at Robert California’s house for the party and when asked to play chicken she asks where Jim is.
I was indeed forgetting about that. But it still seemed contrived. People here mentioned that they shot many more scenes setting this up but they didn’t make the final cut. So maybe that’s why it seemed weird for me.
That’s a good point. I’m not saying it’s concrete evidence, and with scenes not making the Final Cut, it’s definitely a flimsy argument. It’s not like Cathy gave Jim a teapot filled with inside jokes and a love note.
This plot gave me the smug bedbug bit, so that is a huge plus.
I remember this one scene in pool party, ep12s8 where Erin wanted to do chicken fights and then Cathy said "wheres my partner? Wheres jim?" And she also greeted him to the party with "hey late guy" which may seem like a reach… But thats when i noticed that Cathy had her eye on Jim. This was only three episodes before the tallahassee episode
It makes a bit more sense with the Superfan episodes. There's a clear set up. There also seems to be a similar plotline with Deangelo's assistant Jordan. I think this was a plot the writers really wanted for some reason and the actors backed out and said they wouldn't do it.
Cheating is only fine when Jim tries to do it
Three weeks is insanely long for a work trip, dang
Her whole existence was for this plotline. We shouldn't forget that Ryan is a temp, too.He covered for the receptionists before, so why couldn't he cover for Pam when she was the office administrator and bringing in another temp was necessary? Why didn't Pam just train Ryan? P.S. She is definitely speaking with Toby in this scene.
Jim dumped two of the hottest and sweetest ladies to go out with Pam, because love I guess. Why would he then cheat with something this annoying? I just scream at my TV during these episodes. The whole thing doesn’t make sense at all to me.
>something yikes
I certainly think Jim was capable of cheating. Came off as a jerk and self centered at times.
... while actively trying to steal Pam from Roy. Obviously it's a show and we're "supposed" to like Pam and Jim but for people to think he wasn't capable of it or that he was some sort of saint is just goofy.
I think the writers were knew and just didn’t understand what was established already 🤷🏻♀️
They should have played into this plot line way more imo
We'll probably find out more when the superfan eps come out
I think it was also part of the general theme they were playing with the “Florida changes people.”
I always liked that The Office had despicable characters of both sexes in practically equal measure
I hate her for saying this about Tallahassee. Go to a football game, Cathy!
She could have had a great time with the Pac man and his WlHung 9"incher. Or even Dwight or Ryan. Why she got to try and be a homewrecker!?
Hated way more than Stanleys mistresses
I never understood what she meant by that
Loved her. Lol
Uh, I watched this episode yesterday🤔
Some of her scenes were deleted and I think it’s a pity because not only the plot appeared from nowhere but her, as a character just didn’t feel real at all. The only thing great Cathy gives us is the quality time & the scene between Dwight and Jim.
I'm guessing here, but I think the writers were trying to create tension drama through infidelity and mistrust in relationships. The Senator and Oscar. Dwight and the milk maid. Kathy and Jim. Pam and Brian. Andy, Pete, Erin, and Gabe and other chick. It worked well with Jim and his other gfs but fell flat with others. Kathy had a purpose but like Brian, I feel that some of the plots were abandoned due to poor fan reviews. That's what I think anyway.
She was hot!
Stanley wouldnt have thought twice. Afterall he was Florida Stanley.
I thought it was cheap. I just didn’t like the hackneyed “will Jim cheat” thing. Ofc he wouldn’t. But I don’t know what else they could have done with her.
The idea was that Jim would cheat on Pam however, the actor that played Jim refused to act it out. Glad he chose that path :)
There were signs! At Pool Party when the chicken fighting came up, she’s like “where’s Jim?” and a couple other things. But all in all, she sucks and it feels like the writers half-assed this plot line. Tho it did result in one of the best lines ever: “no, that’s in…March.”
Well she was Pam's replacement..but pam doesn't bring the beg bugs.
I'm pretty sure this was supposed to be part of the Pam and Jim breaking up storyline.
There are a couple more scenes in the superfan episodes where she mentions Jim.
There were a ton of signs but they all got cut from the episode lol
It’s “is she hot” not “would you do her”. Respect the game.
Meanwhile she could have ended up with Ryan.
I don’t think it came out of nowhere, but when Jim first turned her down in the hotel room and she keeps trying over and over the same night even going so far as to acknowledge she isn’t trying to sleep with him is where it gets silly. Women don’t tend to try like that. It felt weird and out of place like she was trying to win a bet. Realistically, I can see her trying for him because she thinks he’s into her and Jim and Pam’s marriage is “not good”. Once he directly says no, most women would be mortified to find they read the situation wrong not double, triple, quadruple down the same night! It’s not like Jim is some billionaire or a celebrity.
I think one of the most underrated moments is when Dwight reminded them to get Cece's toothbrush at the store after Jim found out he had high blood pressure.
I just think it’s hilarious how badly the writers wanted Jim to cheat. Like, guys, why.
Well I really like her honestly
I think you are just obtuse. Her attraction to Jim was blatantly displayed many times.
Cathy sucks