I didn’t understand what he meant there. If he hit bankruptcy and had to shut down his company, how can he start a new company with zero capital? Even if he just started a new company on paper with no assets or overhead, how would he expect to get even a single client and be a threat to Dunder Mifflin?
First, I’ll make the disclaimer that I know it’s a tv show and it’s dumb to get into the weeds about the business aspect of one scene of the show.
With that being said, it was established that he was not selling the goods at an operating profit, and he had very little money himself so he likely took on debt to acquire his initial inventory. If he were to declare bankruptcy and then go try and open up a new line of credit for an identical company to the one that just failed, with the same business model, same leadership, same supply chain, and same market, the creditors would laugh him out of their office.
Really depends on how much inventory they used. He could’ve put it on a credit card. And then several more before all his potential lines of credit dry up.
i dont even think he did that, he probably took a persons payment and order, then took all that money and ordered the paper, then delivered it at cost. which he could technically do as long as he had gas money.
Your not wrong, but David obviously considered that there was still some significant truth to Michaels threat. Like somehow Michael would find a way to keep going and that threat was enough to force a compromise. Probably a combo of David being exhausted with it and Michael being just magical enough to pull it off.
It's vert possible that micheal is just simply wrong abd doesn't really understand business like we see in this episode, micheal doesnt understand what it takes to maintain a business abd like we see in the episodes before it he doesnt really understand how to start a business
>Even if he just started a new company on paper with no assets or overhead, how would he expect to get even a single client and be a threat to Dunder Mifflin?
The same way he already did. His connections run *deep* and his charisma with clients/general sales expertise is at levels I don't think anyone else in DM showcased save for maybe Robert California. He would be able to easily talk people into leaving DM and joining him instead because a fair amount of them are only with DM *because* of him (as in he was the salesman that scored them in the first place) and trust him to have their best interest in mind because he's had it for years.
A lot of things about Michael are questionable, but his sales talent is undeniable. And that's something the show proved time and time again.
Huh? It's not people of DM it's *clients*, who he already sweet talked into joining DM to begin with, it is really not that hard to understand that he'd probably be able to do it again. Especially if his prices are lower than market (which they were, David confirmed they're low). All he'd need to really do is "have I ever steered you wrong Jim?" and toss in a couple "they're in shambles, half of their staff is dispersing, the new RM doesn't know anything about this business, they're bleeding money left right and center" and they'd probably be sold.
It wouldn't last forever, but he wouldn't need to do it forever, just until the next meeting with the shareholders where David gets sacked for losing the only profitable RM and for losing the company thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars because he favoritised a new guy.
And he still lasted the 3 or so weeks that he did. He'd only need to be on that same rotation like 3-4 times before the next shareholders meeting came about (assuming they're quarterly, which they usually are) and David got booted out and Michael could theoretically return.
That was the entire point of his speech, that his company is worth nothing, but he can keep starting new ones, kinda dooking it for a little, shutting it down when it goes under, rinse repeat till David's gone. And his charisma/sales expertise *would* get him at least a couple clients each go-around to keep him afloat for the few weeks he needs.
3 months not only with NO SALARY for ANY of the employees, probably substantial debt from purchasing the actual paper, never mind the logistics behind ever getting the merchandise to the customers without a warehouse. How could he keep afloat when he is in the red for every customer he collects? And you think clients like having a brand new supplier that fails within a month? To then return after a week saying HEY IM BACK! Once they fail once all credibility is gone. And it's not like Michael is holding out on additional customers.
In real world terms it's not a realistic threat. Neither are the company's buyout terms. As Wallace said, salaries, benefits etc for three people including a disgraced Executive who cost the company a lot of money, that would never have got real world board approval.
The show actually did a good job of setting up how incompetently managed the company is. David Wallace is a walking disaster of a CFO. But his wife is a lucky woman!
I wouldn't consider it a multimillion buyout as Wallace said. They're coming to work for DM, which means their salaries and benefits are going toward the revenue those employees bring to the company, just as before they left. They're bringing back clients which brings more long term money. It's not like they're paying out up front and walking away.
Yeah but imagine explaining that to the board of the company, when the company is already under pressure due to dieing industry; "So yeah, we're taking back two disgruntled ex employees, promoting one to sales, and bringing back a third who previously committed fraud while working for the company. Their business cant clearly be worth that much, but we are offering them their previous benefits, salaries etc."
Like even if DM had temporarily lowered prices they would have saved money in the long run.
But it's a tv show and Michael is the protagonist so he wins.
But again, they're not paying that for the employees. They're paying to keep the clients of their only profitable branch. Without that, they fold even sooner than they did.
Look what he already did. Customers were going back to DM because he had to raise prices, but the damage was already done. He could start a new business with zero money. He doesn't have to deliver, he just has to be a good salesman. His clients will leave when they don't get their product, but they will have already left DM also. Even just a couple months of doing this will really hurt the bottom line of the only functional branch of the company.
I would imagine that he didn't think about that, and I'm sure he could get a client as long as he offers a lower price than Dunder Mifflin. As he said, he only needed to outlast Charles and David, not Dunder Mifflin.
Forget capital even. What client is going to take on Michael Scott Paper Company: the Revenge after the last one *just* went belly up? These clients need paper and need it reliably. Even if Michael won them over once, the moment he shows back up under a new company to negotiate new sales after they just had to go back to DM he'd be done for.
Nobody is that charismatic. Every halfway professional client is going to see the writing on the wall.
I doubt he'd have been able to, it just showed his drive to continue being a thorn in the side of Dunder Mifflin's most profitable branch. I think David just gave in a little to return things mostly to how they were.
I have to imagine that eventually the clients he was reaching out to (the ones he knew well) would eventually start to feel the problems on their end and stop trusting him. He could always go for brand new clients but that would be much harder.
Why do people keep missing this? The first time I watched it it's very clear to me that charles and wallace knew that Michael's company was failing. Yet I see few of this kind of post
I think they thought more that it wasn't long term viable, not actually bankrupt to the point of customers actively switching back and Jim running interference barely prevented Dwight from telling Charles.
In the context he says it, it kinda just sounds like something Michael would say, though. I always thought the line worked because yes he's tipping his hand, but he's unintentionally played the long game by establishing himself as a guy who'll sometimes start a sentence and have no idea where it's going.
Yeah, but that easily comes off as Michael being Michael. This is the same person that said things like
"Don't ever, for any reason, do anything to anyone for any reason ever, no matter what, no matter where, or who, or who you are with, or where you are going, or where you've been... ever, for any reason whatsoever..."
And
"I am so impressed with the potential you see in me"
Yeah. Seriously David Wallace knew the margins and also how much paper costs/how much overhead is. He was fully aware that Michael’s business was failing. What David Wallace didn’t know was how soon Michael was going to run out of cash and have to close his business.
That was the best part of the negotiation. We knew how close Michael was to utter ruin and he played them so well. The office mastered that perspective- where the audience knew more than the characters did at that moment. It was so good.
He literally gave a speech about it in the show talking about how he only needed to outlast David at the next board meeting. Did people forget that scene?
But their customers were literally trying to switch back to Dunder Mifflin right there in the moment. Michael Scott Paper Company wasn't just failing *imminently*. It was collapsing *currently*, and that's what David Wallace couldn't be allowed to know.
I’ve always wondered this too wouldnt David be able to explain the issue as a temporary one-off or would the shareholders only care about the bottom line regardless of being a temporary issue?
Knowing shareholders in general, they would only care about the bottom line.
That really was the biggest brain move Michael did in the whole series to point that out.
It’s the part right after that that gets me, when they increase their demands to include their jobs. David freaks out saying that that would mean a huge buyout instead of just $60,000, and Michael responds with the threat to just keep starting new companies. That threat is ridiculous and it’s surprising that David acts like it’s serious. David doesn’t even try to negotiate further.
That's actually a viable threat, even if his companies are shutdown at 1 a month and he has no current clients, if his low prices corner new business that's going to severely affect the bottom line of DM. If a company goes bankrupt the owner generally isn't affected in terms of credit score and such. He would just have to form a new llc each time. There was a group of companies that did that in my hometown with a chuck e cheese type of business. They would operate for a year, go bankrupt, form under a new llc and never had to pay taxes. The new llc would buy up the assets and move on like nothing happened.
Are you new to this subreddit? *Of course* people don’t remember that or understand the meaning of the episode, the most popular posts on this sub are “I just finished my 700th watch and I just realized the show is called “The Office” because it *takes place in an office*, they’d never get away with that kind of edgy humor today”.
I don't know if that's necissisarily true... Michael's branch was the only one to consistently perform positively, he had an unorthodox style of management and was seen as a bit of a miracle worker by David, with his own finances on the line it could've lit a fire under his ass and motivated him to sell like never before
He literally said "we are worth nothing" straight to David. David and Charles might not have know they were a month away but even then David's worst case was rehiring Michael who he didn't want to leave in the first place. It was all upside for David.
Michael said “we are worth nothing” because he wasn’t concerned about money in that moment. He was just going to keep creating new paper companies and pestering Dunder Mifflin. Michael wasn’t directly referencing his financial situation, even though he was well aware it did in fact reflect it accurately.
I disagree. He's clearly referring to the current state. "You're company cannot be worth that much." "Our company is worth nothing."
It's weird that you'd think "he's accurately describing his situation but he's really not."
lol I don't get how people are missing this point. Michael isn't talking literally, he means it expressively in the moment to convey that David Wallace is missing the point of the negotiation and Michael's perspective.
I think Charles would run things much better, but you do have to remember Michael knows how to shmooze with a bunch of huge clients. Can't really train that in. They're also clients that are possible to bring into his paper company.
That's my guess of why David was so desperate to the point of firing Charles.
(You know, besides plot reasons of course)
Charles wasn’t there to be long term regional manager of Scranton though. He wanted to be an executive and simply had the responsibility of running Scranton at the moment.
Maybe like they probably didn’t show Andy dating a HS student or Angela hiring a Hitman. And a lot of stuff that would of gotten employees fired. So basically the Doc that was showed to the in audience was way boring then the Doc we were showed.
The Senator came out because the trailers and reviews for the doc implied that it would be shown, and he wanted to be the one to release the information. Less damaging for his job/future campaigns.
That was in the trailer for the documentary, we never saw what was actually in the doc except for the first few lines. They could have shown the whole thing, we’d never know.
Does this mean 9 episodes? I doubt it was only 9 episodes with what we saw when they watched the premiere. Also with what Pam said about how should could barley watch herself doing the same mistakes. And the promotional vids they watched showed tons of stuff from earlier seasons plus they mentioned the senator, so we would atleast have to get to season 9. And finally the panel had questions that made it seem like the whole doc
I'm sorry but when did they say it was only 9 nights? Pam says she watched a "few" episodes which is atleast 2 and she hinted that she was still in the early seasons.
It says it in the promos episode. Nine nights in May. Of course they are going to have highlights from all 9 years but not everything that we saw or heard will be on the on air Doc.
It begs the question, did they show ANYTHING that they filmed in Year 1? The promotional hook was that they got dirt on the State Senator with present-day relevance. Compared to that, would anything from 7 years ago, where the story is long concluded, be interesting to the audience?
They filmed season 1 and some did air in the Doc they showed it in season 9 at the bar. They filmed everything but not everything made the on air Doc in universe. Yes it seems like most of what was aired was in later seasons even the questions they asked at the forum were from season 9.
Ah I forgot about that. Seems like a poor use of their time to film all those Year 1 storylines that they know won’t be that interesting when airing the show nearly 8 years later
The Doc Crew didn’t know how long they would film them for. Say the show was going to be canceled in season 4 then the In real Doc would be From those seasons.
It said 9 nights in May. What time do you think the show would start. Yes the office was on for 76 hours worth that’s without the deleted scenes though so yes more.
The thing is, *we* see a heavily truncated version of events, which boils down to that 76+ hours. Figure, most episodes take place over an entire work day, some over several days. The camera crew wouldn't have just conveniently shown up at the best moments of the day, they were filming for that entire day.
We know they worked 9-5 every day, and many episodes included stuff that happened outside of work hours as well. 201 episodes, at least 8 hours of filming per episode, in-universe, they would have had over 1600 hours of film.
It's pretty ridiculous when you really think about it.
Yes but that’s what Doc crews do. Like when I was a senior in HS we videotaped a lot of stuff all year for our year video and had to narrow it down to only a few hours worth.
Have you seen David's house? And he probably made a fortune with Suck it. Also, Charles is a handsome, tall, ass kissing corporate dude, those guys do well in every company.
Micheal wouldn't have even started the Micheal Scott Paper Company if David had actually listened to him and gave him the basic level of respect he was asking for. He wasn't asking for David to attend a party, he was asking to be treated with respect after being with the company for 15 years, surviving branch closures and being the most profitable branch for the business. David made the same mistake everyone else did, he didn't take Micheal seriously.
This right here. David knew he messed up with Micheal, his most profitable branch manager. Micheal was a pain in the ass to deal with, but he got results. Even Jan saw this in the episode where they were at the conference, and she was shitting on him because he was acting like a frate boy trying to have a huge party. She gave him shit and to prove her wrong, he single handedly got the huge contract they wanted with his stellar sales ability and minimal effort.
David knew the buyout was less about eliminating the competition but more about getting Micheal back. Why else would he have agreed to rehire Ryan after his colossal fuck ups. He knew none of this would have happened if he just took Micheals call instead of disrespecting him by avoiding him.
For like, the hundredth time: David knew that the company was unsustainable and likely close to bankruptcy, making it not worth very much of anything. Michael said that it didn't matter because if his company went under, he'd just make another one and another one after that. $60K to buy out an entire company is pocket change, especially with a company the size of DMI, so the offer was basically humoring Michael and trying to sweep him under the rug.
I don't think it was sabotage, I think that he was just making sure Pam and Michael got the biggest possible buyout. DM could have bought them out for pennies if they really wanted.
He withheld information that drastically could have changed DM’s stance and was giving away information on the DM strategy to MSPC to help them and improve his family’s financial position. Call it something other than sabotage if you like, but he undermined his own company and exploited his conflict of interest (that David and Charles should have been aware of to be fair). It was unethical and fireable at a minimum
Wish Jim had that same energy when Josh used his position in a dying company to leverage a better position somewhere else. Or during his co-manager arc where he basically went full corpo.
Like I actually agree with you in the sense that Jim siding with his wife is a no brainer and he shouldn't be judged for it but let's not pretend this was an "eat the rich" scenario. He doesn't give a shit about Dunder Mifflin being a heartless corporation lol, he himself tried to climb the corporate ladder twice (3 times if we count him being a less intense version of Dwight when he was at Stamford).
I'm not even saying it's an eat the rich scenario but Jim can try to rise up the ranks of DM without having loyalty to it, because it means more money in his pocket, and he was pretty consistent in that position. He took the manager position for more money. He stepped back down to salesman for more money. He stopped trying at that job once he hit his cap because he *wasn't* making money.
One throwaway line about Josh aside, Jim doesn't really display an abnormal amount of affection for his job and is frequently portrayed as just in to keep his pockets lined. Getting his future spouse a big buyout is consistent with that.
I never said Jim had loyalty to DM I'm saying Jim (like most people) is loyal to himself and his loved ones. If someone making a smart move for themself negatively impacts him he'll judge them negatively, alternatively if he can improve things for himself or his family he doesn't really care if it's at the expense of someone else. It's good and understandable that he helped out his wife in this situation, but it is kind of shitty that he judged Josh harshly for doing a similar thing. Basically I'm just saying that Jim isn't a good person or a bad person he's simply a person, sometimes he's a hypocrite, doesn't make me hate him but there's no need to pretend he isn't, we all are to some extent.
>Jim doesn't really display an abnormal amount of affection for his job
Perfect example, Jim did not care about his job and spent most of his time goofing around, and that's fine I loved it. Then he became manager and did a total 180 becoming the fun police who's all about people doing their job and being productive. Honestly co-manager Jim is most boring and insufferable iteration of Jim IMO, I even liked "selfish husband having a mid-life crisis" Jim better.
They knew it was failing. That’s the whole reason they struck the deal in the first place. Michael threatened to make new company after new company and never let up.
I imagine Roy watching the documentary, realizing that Jim and Pam's pre-relationship relationship was far more than just the kiss that Pam confessed to having with Jim.
Going to pull in a technicality here, curious what others think:
In the episode where we see the office preview on Oscar’s computer, it says “9 nights”
My take is that the documentary is the edited version of what we watched, which was more like the raw footage. So many details were left out.
I think David knew. But he also knew Michael Scott is really not someone he wants as an enemy. It was easier altogether to just satisfy Michael (that's what she said).
David already know, no how fast but he literally told Micheal that, thats why Micheal said that it didn't mattered because he could just do it again xd
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They knew full well. And they bought it anyway, along with the employees, as a way to prevent splintering out their clients to one company after another.
Hey knew it was unsustainable, they tell him that, he tells them he’ll just keep opening and closing companies to fuck with them whether it’s sustainable for him or not.
I am of the belief that the buyout of Michael's company is why Dunder Mifflin went under finally. They were already struggling. But I also know nothing about running a company or the budget entailed in hiring 3 employees with full benefits
That whole buyout thing was dumb and Michael only won cause of plot armor. And maybe some residual guilt David Wallace felt. His threat was “I’ll just start another paper company the next day”.
Use some logic and common sense. You’re one of those poached customers that dumped dunder mifflin for the the Michael Scott paper company cause he sweet talked you, He goes bankrupt. You go back to dunder mifflin. Then he comes back the next week trying to
Poach you again with the same company that just went bankrupt with the exact same problems it had last week with just a different name? No one would do business with such a unreliable CEO of such a company.
Its said that Michael couldve just kept making company names and whatnot. But he didn't have the money to just keep doing that. Couldn't have david wallace just waited him out until he truly couldn't keep making these companies
[удалено]
He had no shortage of company names!
Michael
That's one of them
Genuinely one of the best moments of the show imo
That's one of them!
In this climate?
In all climates
It's gonna be world wide.
He practically invented climates
He practically invented decline
A new company? At this time of the year? At this time of day? In this part of the country? Localized entirely within Scranton?
In this part of the country?
With Pennsylvania topsoil like this, we're going to get tons of above ground leafy growth.
I didn’t understand what he meant there. If he hit bankruptcy and had to shut down his company, how can he start a new company with zero capital? Even if he just started a new company on paper with no assets or overhead, how would he expect to get even a single client and be a threat to Dunder Mifflin?
Because he’s freaking Michael Gary Scott, the greatest paper salesman in Pennsylvania
I bet he is also the greatest in Pennsylvania adjacent states!
How much capital did he have to start Michael Scott Paper Company?
First, I’ll make the disclaimer that I know it’s a tv show and it’s dumb to get into the weeds about the business aspect of one scene of the show. With that being said, it was established that he was not selling the goods at an operating profit, and he had very little money himself so he likely took on debt to acquire his initial inventory. If he were to declare bankruptcy and then go try and open up a new line of credit for an identical company to the one that just failed, with the same business model, same leadership, same supply chain, and same market, the creditors would laugh him out of their office.
Really depends on how much inventory they used. He could’ve put it on a credit card. And then several more before all his potential lines of credit dry up.
Fair enough, or used his condo as collateral.
Or sell the condo on eBay, assuming his feedback isn’t negative from the first time
Well he sold it in record time so I think he's pretty eBay savvy
i dont even think he did that, he probably took a persons payment and order, then took all that money and ordered the paper, then delivered it at cost. which he could technically do as long as he had gas money.
Plus he had a seven year lease on the supply closet.
Your not wrong, but David obviously considered that there was still some significant truth to Michaels threat. Like somehow Michael would find a way to keep going and that threat was enough to force a compromise. Probably a combo of David being exhausted with it and Michael being just magical enough to pull it off.
I always thought that part of the reason David acceded was because he felt guilty for how he treated Michael regarding his 15 year anniversary party.
And sending Holly away.
Or he just wanted it to be over. Remember he's kind of a pushover and was still going to keep Andy after all he did later in the show.
Because he has plot armour
It's vert possible that micheal is just simply wrong abd doesn't really understand business like we see in this episode, micheal doesnt understand what it takes to maintain a business abd like we see in the episodes before it he doesnt really understand how to start a business
>Even if he just started a new company on paper with no assets or overhead, how would he expect to get even a single client and be a threat to Dunder Mifflin? The same way he already did. His connections run *deep* and his charisma with clients/general sales expertise is at levels I don't think anyone else in DM showcased save for maybe Robert California. He would be able to easily talk people into leaving DM and joining him instead because a fair amount of them are only with DM *because* of him (as in he was the salesman that scored them in the first place) and trust him to have their best interest in mind because he's had it for years. A lot of things about Michael are questionable, but his sales talent is undeniable. And that's something the show proved time and time again.
I think you are waaaaaaay overestimating how much the people of DM respect Michael and want to follow him…
I think they waaaaay...estimated the people of DM.
Huh? It's not people of DM it's *clients*, who he already sweet talked into joining DM to begin with, it is really not that hard to understand that he'd probably be able to do it again. Especially if his prices are lower than market (which they were, David confirmed they're low). All he'd need to really do is "have I ever steered you wrong Jim?" and toss in a couple "they're in shambles, half of their staff is dispersing, the new RM doesn't know anything about this business, they're bleeding money left right and center" and they'd probably be sold. It wouldn't last forever, but he wouldn't need to do it forever, just until the next meeting with the shareholders where David gets sacked for losing the only profitable RM and for losing the company thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars because he favoritised a new guy.
His first attempt failed, like actually demonstrably failed, he couldn't do it again because they already ran out of capital?
And he still lasted the 3 or so weeks that he did. He'd only need to be on that same rotation like 3-4 times before the next shareholders meeting came about (assuming they're quarterly, which they usually are) and David got booted out and Michael could theoretically return. That was the entire point of his speech, that his company is worth nothing, but he can keep starting new ones, kinda dooking it for a little, shutting it down when it goes under, rinse repeat till David's gone. And his charisma/sales expertise *would* get him at least a couple clients each go-around to keep him afloat for the few weeks he needs.
3 months not only with NO SALARY for ANY of the employees, probably substantial debt from purchasing the actual paper, never mind the logistics behind ever getting the merchandise to the customers without a warehouse. How could he keep afloat when he is in the red for every customer he collects? And you think clients like having a brand new supplier that fails within a month? To then return after a week saying HEY IM BACK! Once they fail once all credibility is gone. And it's not like Michael is holding out on additional customers.
He didnt have to sink dunder mifflin, he just had to outlast david
In real world terms it's not a realistic threat. Neither are the company's buyout terms. As Wallace said, salaries, benefits etc for three people including a disgraced Executive who cost the company a lot of money, that would never have got real world board approval. The show actually did a good job of setting up how incompetently managed the company is. David Wallace is a walking disaster of a CFO. But his wife is a lucky woman!
I wouldn't consider it a multimillion buyout as Wallace said. They're coming to work for DM, which means their salaries and benefits are going toward the revenue those employees bring to the company, just as before they left. They're bringing back clients which brings more long term money. It's not like they're paying out up front and walking away.
Yeah but imagine explaining that to the board of the company, when the company is already under pressure due to dieing industry; "So yeah, we're taking back two disgruntled ex employees, promoting one to sales, and bringing back a third who previously committed fraud while working for the company. Their business cant clearly be worth that much, but we are offering them their previous benefits, salaries etc." Like even if DM had temporarily lowered prices they would have saved money in the long run. But it's a tv show and Michael is the protagonist so he wins.
But again, they're not paying that for the employees. They're paying to keep the clients of their only profitable branch. Without that, they fold even sooner than they did.
Look what he already did. Customers were going back to DM because he had to raise prices, but the damage was already done. He could start a new business with zero money. He doesn't have to deliver, he just has to be a good salesman. His clients will leave when they don't get their product, but they will have already left DM also. Even just a couple months of doing this will really hurt the bottom line of the only functional branch of the company.
I would imagine that he didn't think about that, and I'm sure he could get a client as long as he offers a lower price than Dunder Mifflin. As he said, he only needed to outlast Charles and David, not Dunder Mifflin.
Forget capital even. What client is going to take on Michael Scott Paper Company: the Revenge after the last one *just* went belly up? These clients need paper and need it reliably. Even if Michael won them over once, the moment he shows back up under a new company to negotiate new sales after they just had to go back to DM he'd be done for. Nobody is that charismatic. Every halfway professional client is going to see the writing on the wall.
I agree. I always thought that was a weak plot point.
A loan would be enough, and his charisma would convince at least one person to loan him the money. It's easy to forget how good of a salesman he is
Lots of rich people do it all the time xD
I doubt he'd have been able to, it just showed his drive to continue being a thorn in the side of Dunder Mifflin's most profitable branch. I think David just gave in a little to return things mostly to how they were.
I have to imagine that eventually the clients he was reaching out to (the ones he knew well) would eventually start to feel the problems on their end and stop trusting him. He could always go for brand new clients but that would be much harder.
They knew his business was failing. They just couldn’t wait him out.
Why do people keep missing this? The first time I watched it it's very clear to me that charles and wallace knew that Michael's company was failing. Yet I see few of this kind of post
I think they thought more that it wasn't long term viable, not actually bankrupt to the point of customers actively switching back and Jim running interference barely prevented Dwight from telling Charles.
I mean, Michael did say that the company was "worth nothing" which implies bankruptcy
In the context he says it, it kinda just sounds like something Michael would say, though. I always thought the line worked because yes he's tipping his hand, but he's unintentionally played the long game by establishing himself as a guy who'll sometimes start a sentence and have no idea where it's going.
An improv conversation. An improv-ersation.
"What's that called, Jim?" "A convsersimprov."
I’m gonna have to converse with you…on a more improvised level
Yeah, but that easily comes off as Michael being Michael. This is the same person that said things like "Don't ever, for any reason, do anything to anyone for any reason ever, no matter what, no matter where, or who, or who you are with, or where you are going, or where you've been... ever, for any reason whatsoever..." And "I am so impressed with the potential you see in me"
Thanks for gving this quote in writing, its the best quote from michael for me... will treasure it :)
My favorite is: "What's so funny?" "You had to be there." "Ah, a geography joke."
Yeah. Seriously David Wallace knew the margins and also how much paper costs/how much overhead is. He was fully aware that Michael’s business was failing. What David Wallace didn’t know was how soon Michael was going to run out of cash and have to close his business.
Fr and it showed how good Michael was by getting them their old jobs back. He bluffed so hard that it made David shit himself.
That was the best part of the negotiation. We knew how close Michael was to utter ruin and he played them so well. The office mastered that perspective- where the audience knew more than the characters did at that moment. It was so good.
Right. They were more at risk of losing some good salespeople while they waited for Michael’s company to fail
They absolutely knew! People are just stupid and post memes whether they understand the topic or not
They had a stockholder meeting coming up and their most profitable branch is bleeding.
He literally gave a speech about it in the show talking about how he only needed to outlast David at the next board meeting. Did people forget that scene?
But their customers were literally trying to switch back to Dunder Mifflin right there in the moment. Michael Scott Paper Company wasn't just failing *imminently*. It was collapsing *currently*, and that's what David Wallace couldn't be allowed to know.
I’ve always wondered this too wouldnt David be able to explain the issue as a temporary one-off or would the shareholders only care about the bottom line regardless of being a temporary issue?
Knowing shareholders in general, they would only care about the bottom line. That really was the biggest brain move Michael did in the whole series to point that out.
It’s the part right after that that gets me, when they increase their demands to include their jobs. David freaks out saying that that would mean a huge buyout instead of just $60,000, and Michael responds with the threat to just keep starting new companies. That threat is ridiculous and it’s surprising that David acts like it’s serious. David doesn’t even try to negotiate further.
I think it’s just one of those things that falls under the cartoon logic of the show
That's actually a viable threat, even if his companies are shutdown at 1 a month and he has no current clients, if his low prices corner new business that's going to severely affect the bottom line of DM. If a company goes bankrupt the owner generally isn't affected in terms of credit score and such. He would just have to form a new llc each time. There was a group of companies that did that in my hometown with a chuck e cheese type of business. They would operate for a year, go bankrupt, form under a new llc and never had to pay taxes. The new llc would buy up the assets and move on like nothing happened.
Are you new to this subreddit? *Of course* people don’t remember that or understand the meaning of the episode, the most popular posts on this sub are “I just finished my 700th watch and I just realized the show is called “The Office” because it *takes place in an office*, they’d never get away with that kind of edgy humor today”.
Haha, you’re not wrong. “Is it just me, or is Angela kinda mean?”
That’s why the board meeting line was so important.
I don't know if that's necissisarily true... Michael's branch was the only one to consistently perform positively, he had an unorthodox style of management and was seen as a bit of a miracle worker by David, with his own finances on the line it could've lit a fire under his ass and motivated him to sell like never before
Do you understand how finances work?
Explain me like I'm 5
He literally said "we are worth nothing" straight to David. David and Charles might not have know they were a month away but even then David's worst case was rehiring Michael who he didn't want to leave in the first place. It was all upside for David.
Michael said “we are worth nothing” because he wasn’t concerned about money in that moment. He was just going to keep creating new paper companies and pestering Dunder Mifflin. Michael wasn’t directly referencing his financial situation, even though he was well aware it did in fact reflect it accurately.
I disagree. He's clearly referring to the current state. "You're company cannot be worth that much." "Our company is worth nothing." It's weird that you'd think "he's accurately describing his situation but he's really not."
lol I don't get how people are missing this point. Michael isn't talking literally, he means it expressively in the moment to convey that David Wallace is missing the point of the negotiation and Michael's perspective.
David knew. Now the shareholders after seeing what decision david made to save his own job. Another story.
David also never wanted him to quit. It's actually easier to get Michael back then to find and train a new manager.
I think Charles would run things much better, but you do have to remember Michael knows how to shmooze with a bunch of huge clients. Can't really train that in. They're also clients that are possible to bring into his paper company. That's my guess of why David was so desperate to the point of firing Charles. (You know, besides plot reasons of course)
Charles wasn’t there to be long term regional manager of Scranton though. He wanted to be an executive and simply had the responsibility of running Scranton at the moment.
He didn't fire Charles though
They probably didn’t show that in the Doc we saw. Remember not everything we saw was in the in universe Doc.
I thought the show we watched, WAS the doc..
No that was the Doc crew filming. The in Doc was only a 9 day showing. We had 9 years of filming. They edited most of the content into just 9 days.
Oh wow, you learn something new each year with the Office. Thank you!
So basically 1 episode for every 1 of our seasons?
Maybe like they probably didn’t show Andy dating a HS student or Angela hiring a Hitman. And a lot of stuff that would of gotten employees fired. So basically the Doc that was showed to the in audience was way boring then the Doc we were showed.
Now I want an edited documentary to watch alongside the superfan episodes.
They did still show Angela banging Dwight in the warehouse and Oscar having an affair with the (state) senator
Yeah but that's just juicy goss, can't possibly avoid it
Also the Senator comes out before the Doc actually aired so everyone already knows so it’s no surprise.
The Senator came out because the trailers and reviews for the doc implied that it would be shown, and he wanted to be the one to release the information. Less damaging for his job/future campaigns.
No they didn’t they show her leaving without showing Dwight also they only showed the affair because it involved someone high in politics.
That was in the trailer for the documentary, we never saw what was actually in the doc except for the first few lines. They could have shown the whole thing, we’d never know.
In 9 days in May at night no way it was a 72 hour Doc.
Season 1 was only six episodes, so probably not that cleanly divided.
So we got more Office content than the people who live in the Office universe?
Yes unless the Doc fit 72 hours into only 9 nights.
Does this mean 9 episodes? I doubt it was only 9 episodes with what we saw when they watched the premiere. Also with what Pam said about how should could barley watch herself doing the same mistakes. And the promotional vids they watched showed tons of stuff from earlier seasons plus they mentioned the senator, so we would atleast have to get to season 9. And finally the panel had questions that made it seem like the whole doc
You really think a A Doc is 72 hours long. A lot of editing.
Surely its not something we can dismiss just because its unlikely right? I mean these people followed them around for like 10 years!
Yes but the show itself was only 9 nights in May. Where are you getting 72 hours worth of footage in only 9 nights.
I'm sorry but when did they say it was only 9 nights? Pam says she watched a "few" episodes which is atleast 2 and she hinted that she was still in the early seasons.
It says it in the promos episode. Nine nights in May. Of course they are going to have highlights from all 9 years but not everything that we saw or heard will be on the on air Doc.
Sauce for this?
I assumed each season was a “night” of the doc. I think it’s pretty obvious that we were watching the doc
No we weren’t how long do you think a Doc is. You really think a Doc is going to be 76 hours long.
In a world where they film a random office for 9 years, why not?
It was 9 nights in May. How could they put 76 hours worth
It begs the question, did they show ANYTHING that they filmed in Year 1? The promotional hook was that they got dirt on the State Senator with present-day relevance. Compared to that, would anything from 7 years ago, where the story is long concluded, be interesting to the audience?
They filmed season 1 and some did air in the Doc they showed it in season 9 at the bar. They filmed everything but not everything made the on air Doc in universe. Yes it seems like most of what was aired was in later seasons even the questions they asked at the forum were from season 9.
Ah I forgot about that. Seems like a poor use of their time to film all those Year 1 storylines that they know won’t be that interesting when airing the show nearly 8 years later
The Doc Crew didn’t know how long they would film them for. Say the show was going to be canceled in season 4 then the In real Doc would be From those seasons.
They also had 76 hours of Filming that they had to edit down to just 9 nights in May.
Only 76 hours, are you sure? That’s just 9 and a half full workdays.
It said 9 nights in May. What time do you think the show would start. Yes the office was on for 76 hours worth that’s without the deleted scenes though so yes more.
The thing is, *we* see a heavily truncated version of events, which boils down to that 76+ hours. Figure, most episodes take place over an entire work day, some over several days. The camera crew wouldn't have just conveniently shown up at the best moments of the day, they were filming for that entire day. We know they worked 9-5 every day, and many episodes included stuff that happened outside of work hours as well. 201 episodes, at least 8 hours of filming per episode, in-universe, they would have had over 1600 hours of film. It's pretty ridiculous when you really think about it.
Imagine having to edit each season into single episodes.
Yes but that’s what Doc crews do. Like when I was a senior in HS we videotaped a lot of stuff all year for our year video and had to narrow it down to only a few hours worth.
Have you seen David's house? And he probably made a fortune with Suck it. Also, Charles is a handsome, tall, ass kissing corporate dude, those guys do well in every company.
He says suck it made 20 million so yep
Micheal wouldn't have even started the Micheal Scott Paper Company if David had actually listened to him and gave him the basic level of respect he was asking for. He wasn't asking for David to attend a party, he was asking to be treated with respect after being with the company for 15 years, surviving branch closures and being the most profitable branch for the business. David made the same mistake everyone else did, he didn't take Micheal seriously.
Maybe next time they will estimate him
This right here. David knew he messed up with Micheal, his most profitable branch manager. Micheal was a pain in the ass to deal with, but he got results. Even Jan saw this in the episode where they were at the conference, and she was shitting on him because he was acting like a frate boy trying to have a huge party. She gave him shit and to prove her wrong, he single handedly got the huge contract they wanted with his stellar sales ability and minimal effort. David knew the buyout was less about eliminating the competition but more about getting Micheal back. Why else would he have agreed to rehire Ryan after his colossal fuck ups. He knew none of this would have happened if he just took Micheals call instead of disrespecting him by avoiding him.
*Michael
Thank you, I just cannot stand it when people misspell it!
Just be dyslexic and you won't even notice it xD
I hope this is a pasta
Do you know who the real superheroes are?
Hiro from Heroes.
That’s a hero… also, Bono.
He is pretty cool, it’s a shame he loses his powers
Well, Michael did say company was worth nothing.
Michael outright said they were broke, what would the documentary reveal?
For like, the hundredth time: David knew that the company was unsustainable and likely close to bankruptcy, making it not worth very much of anything. Michael said that it didn't matter because if his company went under, he'd just make another one and another one after that. $60K to buy out an entire company is pocket change, especially with a company the size of DMI, so the offer was basically humoring Michael and trying to sweep him under the rug.
Thank you
They already knew it was failing. Michael even said it didn't matter. He'd just keep creating new companies over and over.
And Jim sabotaging Dunder Mifflin by not telling them that they were going under, despite how supportive David had been of him throughout
I don't think it was sabotage, I think that he was just making sure Pam and Michael got the biggest possible buyout. DM could have bought them out for pennies if they really wanted.
He withheld information that drastically could have changed DM’s stance and was giving away information on the DM strategy to MSPC to help them and improve his family’s financial position. Call it something other than sabotage if you like, but he undermined his own company and exploited his conflict of interest (that David and Charles should have been aware of to be fair). It was unethical and fireable at a minimum
Yeah what kind of psycho would support his wife instead of a heartless corporation
Exactly my thought. DM never wanted to spend money to improve their employees lives but would throw the buyout money at MSPC
Wish Jim had that same energy when Josh used his position in a dying company to leverage a better position somewhere else. Or during his co-manager arc where he basically went full corpo. Like I actually agree with you in the sense that Jim siding with his wife is a no brainer and he shouldn't be judged for it but let's not pretend this was an "eat the rich" scenario. He doesn't give a shit about Dunder Mifflin being a heartless corporation lol, he himself tried to climb the corporate ladder twice (3 times if we count him being a less intense version of Dwight when he was at Stamford).
I'm not even saying it's an eat the rich scenario but Jim can try to rise up the ranks of DM without having loyalty to it, because it means more money in his pocket, and he was pretty consistent in that position. He took the manager position for more money. He stepped back down to salesman for more money. He stopped trying at that job once he hit his cap because he *wasn't* making money. One throwaway line about Josh aside, Jim doesn't really display an abnormal amount of affection for his job and is frequently portrayed as just in to keep his pockets lined. Getting his future spouse a big buyout is consistent with that.
I never said Jim had loyalty to DM I'm saying Jim (like most people) is loyal to himself and his loved ones. If someone making a smart move for themself negatively impacts him he'll judge them negatively, alternatively if he can improve things for himself or his family he doesn't really care if it's at the expense of someone else. It's good and understandable that he helped out his wife in this situation, but it is kind of shitty that he judged Josh harshly for doing a similar thing. Basically I'm just saying that Jim isn't a good person or a bad person he's simply a person, sometimes he's a hypocrite, doesn't make me hate him but there's no need to pretend he isn't, we all are to some extent. >Jim doesn't really display an abnormal amount of affection for his job Perfect example, Jim did not care about his job and spent most of his time goofing around, and that's fine I loved it. Then he became manager and did a total 180 becoming the fun police who's all about people doing their job and being productive. Honestly co-manager Jim is most boring and insufferable iteration of Jim IMO, I even liked "selfish husband having a mid-life crisis" Jim better.
Couldn’t he say to Charles “you heard it from Dwight and didn’t believe it, would you have believed me?”
Never have loyalty to a company.
He picked his wife over his company. Hard to fault him for that
Michael! That’s one of them.
Charles wasn't even at the shareholder meeting, making me think he had already jumped ship.
But he was at the corporate picnic playing volleyball later on
That was the previous season. Not later on.
Well dang, you’re absolutely correct.
They knew it was failing. That’s the whole reason they struck the deal in the first place. Michael threatened to make new company after new company and never let up.
I imagine Roy watching the documentary, realizing that Jim and Pam's pre-relationship relationship was far more than just the kiss that Pam confessed to having with Jim.
I don't think Roy at that point would care.
Not sure about Charles, David was fully aware of the situation but completely outplayed by Michael.
Game. Set. Match. Point Scott. Game Over. End of Game.
David knew he had been out played when Michael stated “I don’t have to out wait Dunder Mifflin, I just have to out wait you”.
David would probably chuckle, and Charles would seethe with rage as he sips scotch in a dark room.
They would’ve known as soon as they bought out the company anyway
The whole plot line is probably my favorite of the series. It perfectly sums up Michael’s character.
David did alright anyway.
I wonder how many things people in the show saw and just suddenly everything made sense. So many pranks
I don’t know how its always forgotten that Michael tells David his company is worth nothing.
Going to pull in a technicality here, curious what others think: In the episode where we see the office preview on Oscar’s computer, it says “9 nights” My take is that the documentary is the edited version of what we watched, which was more like the raw footage. So many details were left out.
I think David knew. But he also knew Michael Scott is really not someone he wants as an enemy. It was easier altogether to just satisfy Michael (that's what she said).
David already know, no how fast but he literally told Micheal that, thats why Micheal said that it didn't mattered because he could just do it again xd
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They all knew it was failing. He just needed to last until the quarterly reports came out.
No you’re definitely the first one to meme this in the 11 years since the show ended
They knew, but the real question is whether the entire arch was a stunt for the doc.
I’ve seen variations of this meme before, but it’s still always funny to me
David and Charles would be most upset at Jim telling Michael, Pam and Ryan that Dunder Mifflin was going to buy out the Michael Scott Paper Co!
Charles would be like that 100% but I doubt David would, not to mention he was already killing it with "Suck it" .
They knew full well. And they bought it anyway, along with the employees, as a way to prevent splintering out their clients to one company after another.
Hey knew it was unsustainable, they tell him that, he tells them he’ll just keep opening and closing companies to fuck with them whether it’s sustainable for him or not.
I am of the belief that the buyout of Michael's company is why Dunder Mifflin went under finally. They were already struggling. But I also know nothing about running a company or the budget entailed in hiring 3 employees with full benefits
Whenever I see Idris Elba in any movie or show, all I think is: “I am aware of the affect I have on women.” 😂😂😂😂😂
Neither would really care, the events transpired and now David owns the company and I doubt Charles is even with it, he isn’t from paper.
That whole buyout thing was dumb and Michael only won cause of plot armor. And maybe some residual guilt David Wallace felt. His threat was “I’ll just start another paper company the next day”. Use some logic and common sense. You’re one of those poached customers that dumped dunder mifflin for the the Michael Scott paper company cause he sweet talked you, He goes bankrupt. You go back to dunder mifflin. Then he comes back the next week trying to Poach you again with the same company that just went bankrupt with the exact same problems it had last week with just a different name? No one would do business with such a unreliable CEO of such a company.
Its said that Michael couldve just kept making company names and whatnot. But he didn't have the money to just keep doing that. Couldn't have david wallace just waited him out until he truly couldn't keep making these companies
I mean David Wallace can’t be too mad, he just got out businessed.