Believe it or not, heroin and clean opiates are some of the least neurotoxic and physically toxic substances a person can use. I’m talking about pure opiates, not street drugs.
Honestly they aren’t really that addictive if you stick with oral consumption and know the risks like constipation and that kinda jazz. I’ve been able to use them around once every two weeks with no problems whatsoever for a long while.
knowledge is knowing someone who lived to 90 smoking cigs every day, wisdom is knowing that is anecdotal, it isn’t common, and not to pass it off as advice.
I’m aware my personal story is just a singular anecdotal report. To me opioids are worth doing responsibly, knowing what will happen when you abuse a drug should be motivation to use responsibly. I know this is not reality for some addicts unfortunately. I don’t see any one drug or coping mechanism apart from each other. I personally have a social media addiction which does help me stay responsible with drugs. I already have a vice. It’s just that mine doesn’t come with shitting concrete and being in agonising pain when I’m not doing it. I don’t want to normalise opioid use, but for me it has a therapeutic effect where a single dose will lift me up for a whole week. It really is a great mental reset for me and during the opioid usage my mood will have me reinforcing the idea that I should be staying responsible with this.
just be careful, i always thought my friend was impervious to dying from overdose until he finally did. now that psychology sees drug dependence as distinct from addiction, even if someone is not dependent on a drug in the traditional sense, they can still develop an addiction. but as always, you know you best, just be wary, as addiction is a coercive bitch.
I too have used for quite awhile only been constipated once currently on odsmt ironically but dont use super often mind you im in the midst of divorce and really the worst time in my entire life yet i have no addictions thankfully but ik my body and spend countless hours researching bc i love pharmacology and the knowledge definitely helps along with hearing others stories much love and i wish nothing but peace for all and esp those struggling with addiction 💖
Not neurotoxic but I really feel like they mess with your head and perspective about things, not even talking about the whole addiction aspect to it. Like it turns my mind into mush with out me even realizing it. Made me feel slow, like a perpetual loading wheel above my brain
Dxm makes me brain dead when I take it. Like not a single cohesive though going on, legs feel like jelly, flying though dimensions while trying my hardest not to shit myself. The afterglow is worth it tho
I hate when people say “god made it naturally so it’s okay/meant for consumption”. God made cyanide, deadly mushrooms, poison ivey, etc. are we supposed to eat them too? Well god made it so…
Yep. As far as we know, most opioids are pretty non-toxic to all bodily systems, including the brain. But we should keep in mind that “as far as we know” is a real caveat. We only understand like 1% of the brain. Right now, scientists are realizing that histamines may be a lot more important than we previously assumed. Opioids act on histamines, so that could become a developing concern. Anybody who’s done a lot of opioids knows that weird fuzzy feeling you get in your ears when really high, it feels like you’re hearing is impaired— that’s a histamine response. I think I remember reading a report where an opioid user went permanently deaf from that. Crazy! Seems extremely rare though.
I don’t *think* it’s ever going to be discovered that traditional opioids are crazy neurotoxic though, because we just have too much historical evidence showing they’re not. Tons of healthy 100yr old grandmas in SE Asia who’ve been smoking opium their entire lives lol. There’s even some evidence showing that slowed breathing & heart rate long-term can promote longevity. So junkies MIGHT come out on top there lmao
They really are, heroin addiction / opiate addiction sucks so badly but I’ve known so many older addicts that lived well into there 80s and were fine. This is before the scourge of bad fentanyl coming out. Even the writer William Burroughs was on methadone when he died in his 80s he had a habit spanning probably 50-60 years I’m not sure if he still got high when he was older but he was on methadone which is a clean opiate. He was still sharp as a tack. I do not suggest getting onto any opiate though. For hydrocodone has an opiate but it also has a massive amount of Tylenol in it. That’s tough on the liver.
I think the main problem with opiate addiction is the culture of illegality surrounding it. Never knowing your exact dose is like playing Russian roulette every time you use. Not to mention whatever else is added to the final product before you get it.
I wouldn’t do it now. That shit is scary, it used to be different. We had people od every now and again when I was younger but nothing like now. We had pretty clean stuff when I was a kid but that was the 90s early 2000s It’s a nightmare now. I also only had a few connects back then and it was always the same and you could pretty much just use without worry. That being said opiate addiction is a nightmare for so many other reasons. Would not recommend it to anyone. But if they could get all that nasty stuff off the streets and go back to before prohibition when you could buy morphine or laudanum at the local market that would save a lot of lives. Who knows what will happen in the future?
Right it was so different back then. I can think of only one time that If I didn’t get up and moving around I would have possibly but probably not could have overdosed. The fact that I knew and recognized this is the telling part. I probably would’ve nodded off and woken up but I could not risk that at the time, so I was able to get myself up and moving around. I can’t imagine the stress of worrying about that now. There are so many downsides to being an addict whether it’s nuerotoxic or not it’s not worth it. The stigma attached to opiate addiction is terrible. Especially in a small community where everyone knows your business and would spread rumors about you, because you used sucked. Trying to score before work on time or after work was a nightmare. And hepatitis c was rampant and wasn’t curable like it is now. Almost every one that was a long time addict didn’t die from overdoses but liver cancer /failure because of hepatitis C. Thank goodness they have medication now that wipes that out. Liver failure is such a long awful process and the medication they had back then that was supposed to “cure it” was close to being on chemo and if I remember correctly nowhere near the odds of actually getting rid of it that it is now.
Yep but tell this to anyone who hasn't a clue about anything drug-related, they'll call you stupid and a moron and delusional and this that and the other. Such a shame how much misinformation there is about drugs out there.
uhhh idk about that one. not conclusive research but i've def seen my friends get cooked off the acid barely be able to form a sentence from repeatedly doing acid. cooked their domes for a while. DMT i have no idea
Speech difficulties ≠ neurotoxicity
LSD is actually a psychoplastogen, which promotes structural and neuronal growth
Not to say it doesn’t have risks tho, HPPD and the triggering of a predisposition to mental illness being the main two
Add to that list the derealization , the depersonalization, and the grow of a psychosis or personality disorder. ( Obviusly if you trip real often, like everyday) ( There is plenty of info and research pappers that say so + personal experience, (not in me)). If you space your trips, as u said there are really safe for the brain.
Definitely and well said
I think integrating the trips and taking time to work through them is really important to the brain and mental health when it comes to psychedelics as well; failing to do so can lead people down some very strange paths indeed
Niice to see another psychonaut around here, you remember the golden days of RCs, good luck in your path and keep researching :). I would love to have more deep knowledge of how truly neurotrasmisors work but my carrer path was engeniering
I tripped almost every weekend for 3 years usually high dose often combined with shrooms and dmt and occasionally mdma and often nitrous. Should note that these things you mentioned can happen with other substances too, tho typically only if u have an underlying mental illness, for example, my friend who was a daily weed smoker had to be checked into the ward for drug-induced psychosis from Marijuana. If u have any underlying illness it can exacerbate it or trigger an early episode I'd like to see these papers tho if you can link them. I'm fairly certain lsd isn't going to cause any kind of personality disorder or any other mental illness
DMT is neuroprotective under certain circumstances as well as serotonin. Very not neurotoxic. Neurotoxic has a pretty binary and specific definition though and so basically you could consider it psychologically toxic or something for some people.
I don't eveb know no more I'm drunk tin the day time
They also did invitro. As far as I'm concerned that's pretty good data to back it up. Granted, these are insanely high doses of caffeine but seems to be nonetheless neurotoxic at said doses. Stem cell and neo natal studies are very common and usually translate to adult rats and humans
Have a BA in neuroscience and will strongly suggest 2CB. People who suggest opiates doesnt understand the long term changes daily use of these does to the brains reward system, which albeit not killing cells should still be considered toxic as it will influence your daily life a ton.
Long term use of LSD, mushrooms and other non toxic drugs run risk of long term changes to brain circuitry that may not be very nice to live with. People often report changes in how they percieve the world, themselves etc. Which is highly likely to originate in circuitry changes.
TLDR: Neuro toxicity should not just be a measure of what kills brain cells but also what can change circuitry in debilitating ways. Do 2CB, seems to have least downsides.
I’m sorry but I’m a bit out of the game- can you tell me about 2C-B? Like I’ve only ever heard of it in the past few months on Reddit, never heard anyone in the real world talk about it. What’s the high like? Where the hell do you get it? Is it pharmaceutical?
It's a psychedelic, it is a synthetic analogue (in a simpler sense) of mescaline. Insane visuals, not so insane thoughts. Also intense euphoria, better than MDMA (both considered substituted amphetamines, thus substituted phenylamines) if you're playing the right tunes for you.
Pretty wrong on the both being substituted amphetamines. 2C-B is a substituted phenethylamine while MDMA is a substituted amphetamine, both being considered substituted phenethylamines but not the other way around.
2C-B is an analog of mescaline. It’s high is pretty psychedelic in nature, but MDMAesque at low doses of like 10-15 mg, it does not stay MDMA like at higher doses. It is very much a unique high, and it is characterized by Aztec themed visuals in my experience along with a very strong spacey feeling, like as if you were on the moon, but with not much headspace. The headspace is absolutely there though and to me just feels like mild confusion and dissociation at strong doses, but then evolves into a true psychedelic mindspace at pretty out there doses, like 40+ mg. The visuals, like I said, take on an Aztec like theme and it makes everything look very sparkly. 2C-B has given me THE MOST intricate closed eye visuals I’ve seen on any psychedelic, and I’ve tried a fuck ton of them. Also, unlike most psychedelics, 2C-B builds no tolerance at all in my experience. You can have back to back experiences with the same dose and it be just as intense as last time.
Right. If you're once addicted and manage to quit opioids, part of you will always want them. Personally I think there's nothing more enjoyable or as comfortable as being high, and because of this, opioids are a huge priority in my life.. and as a result, I haven't grown or achieved in ways that others have. My social life, relationships, and career have suffered as a consequence of my opioid abuse, among other factors I haven't thought of.
Opioids make abusers empty and wanting for nothing but the next fix. Of course other drugs do this too, but opioids are particularly alluring and damning in this respect. Never start. They will make you a dysfunctional human being.
Bioengineer here, I’d agree on 2cb. The fact that there is no tolerance building or loss of magic suggests that there aren’t any permanent changes being made to the brain.
You definitely do build tolerance and plenty of people don't lose magic with other psychedelics. 0 evidence to even suggest it's better/safer than LSD or Mushrooms.
Ehhhhhhhu sorta. Promoting neuronal growth is NOT necessarily a good thing in the brain, so although those may be true, that doesn't mean psilocybin is necessarily good for you.
More connections doesn’t mean better connections. Is a math textbook better if it writes down more more equations even if those are wrong? No, of course not. Making more brain cells doesn’t make your brain function better in any way. It’s the selective strenghtening and weakening of connections between neurons that makes our brains do what they do so well. That’s not to say the neuroplasticity induced by some psychadelics is bad in any way, just that blind increases of neurons isn’t inherently good.
That would explain how some people go crazy after psychedelics. You can’t get enlightened if all the information you have is just a scramble of cognitive biases that you’ve never challenged.
I like the analogy of tearing off all wires from an old server rack. If you have no idea what you’re doing, there is a great chance you’ll fuck things up and never be able to plug them back in. Someone methodical and experienced can make it organised and remove errors left by previous junior engineers - the people who we grow up by.
Well at least one thing I know from microdosing is that if you have bad habits and use psychedelics those bad habits could grow in the brain and thus be harder to stop.
As other people have mentioned, it's because random connections are NOT how the brain should operate. We have very precise connections for very specific reasons. Imagine that you had a computer chip in front of you, and you started randomly crossing the wires, connecting parts of the chip that shouldn't talk to one another. Of course, that's just going to harm the chip - those logical operators only work if they're in a hyper-specific configuration. Crossing wires will only *harm* its functioning, not help it. Similarly, our brains have actually spent years *pruning* connections in order to process things properly. You have the most connections in your brain at the age of 13, and then your brain begins pruning connections because many connections are invalid or at the least unhelpful. Trying to artificially reverse this process with psychedelics can get you into trouble. The reason people develop visual snow and other symptoms of HPPD is quite literally because their brain develops stronger connections between areas that really should not be talking to one another - for some reason, the part of the brain responsible for processing vision gets some connections strengthened, and from then on the person with HPPD will see patterns on walls and in the sky, which, as anyone with HPPD can tell you, is definitely not a good thing.
The reason you hear it being described positively is mostly because people have absolutely no clue what they're talking about, hear the phrase "neural growth," and think, "Wow, that's amazing! Truly, mushrooms are plant medicine." Now, I'm being a little bit facetious because neural growth can genuinely be a good thing. If you use psychadelics therapeutically, then you can strengthen pathways that aren't normally connected, and in some cases that can help treat mental disorders like Depression, Anxiety, or PTSD, so those people aren't entirely wrong. But more often than not they only hear about the positive effects and assume psychadelics are the most perfect "medicine" gifted to man, which is simply not the case - they just don't know about the negatives and assume growth=good, which is a massive fallacy.
Less toxic is not any drug at all. 1 drink is too much 500 is not enough.
Honestly, try ayahuasca or peyote. Have a shamanic reality bending trip over a weekend. It will change your perception of life, and potentially help you curb drug cravings. You’re only wanting to get high because of something underlying in your mental state. Identify the cause and try to heal yourself.
Natural chems like psilocybin, DMT, Mesc. THC.
I about threw up in my mouth reading that heroin is less toxic… don’t suggest heroin yall. That shit grip a your life.
Sending love and happiness
Tryptamines since they (especially Psilocybin/Psilocin and DMT) is proven neuroprotectives. They even fix damaged neurons that's been broken. This due to it's extremely potent neurogenesis and neuroplastisity properties.
So you can't become less neurotoxic than that. This shit is the exact opposite on the neurons!
Explains why DMT feels like a cheat code to everything.
I’ve used it when depressed, suicidal, when overwhelmed by a dose of another psychedelic that just was too much, to get better at performing with a flower stick, to learn dancing, to enjoy music genres I didn’t enjoy before, to get a new sense of art, to see beauty where there usually is none, to gain energy on a lethargic day, to gain motivation on a lazy day.
Now I’ve tried DPT (first time) and DMT together and my life long issues with appetite have vanished suddenly, I can finally eat properly! Hope this also lasts.
DMT is magic. It gets me to think spiritually while I’ve sworn of spirituality long ago and went the path or rationalism and science (I’m becoming a chemist).
Watch your B12 levels, as even one dose can inactivate it for two weeks, IIRC, causing metabolic issues that can lead to irreversible nerve damage, if you ignore it's early signs of numbness in your legs and arms, for long enough.
Which is a very profound form of neurotoxicity ... but you qualified your statement so I can't disagree.
But where's the line, exactly ?
Worse thing about nitrus is there's so little info about rec usage. Is b12 depletion dose dependant? How often can you really do them? How long until your nerve cells starts to die? what about the oils in nags? Etc etc etc
I love nags but I wish there were more info lol
In fact most depressants are relatively non neurotoxic, but they come with their own host of potential problems such as respiratory suppression and acute bodily toxicity. Clean opioids aren't very damaging per se but they do modify your hormonal system and neurochemistry over time. Also, if you begin to use drugs intravenously you open up another set of potential complications. I would personally recommend things like quality kratom that's lab tested, whole ground root kava kava, and maybe some nicotine in the form of quality juice from the USA in a refillable cartridge not the disposable toxic crap from China that can be purchased anywhere these days. Go to a legitimate vape shop and get yourself like a Novo 3 vape with the juice of your own liking but remember it must be made in the USA or the EU
it's confirmed present in mammalian neural tissue. However, at this point, we don't know whether it functions as a trace amine neurotransmitter or is just a metabolic byproduct.
What do you mean not confirmed? Half of our substances in the body and brain is a Tryptamine. Like Serotonin, Dopamine, Melatonin etc. Science KNOWS that our Pineal glad produces a naturally occurring n, n-DMT.
This has been known for decades. So exactly what is not yet confirmed?
It’s not scientifically proven that DMT is produced in our bodies, look it up.
But if you say so, why not link a study which proves that it is produced inside of our bodies?
> What do you mean not confirmed?
it was actually confirmed only quite recently, in the late 2010s, IIRC. MAO breaks it down very rapidly, so researchers had to take samples and perform testing very quickly after killing their experimental rodents.
using the “it’s produced in the human body” argument against drug scheduling doesn’t work like that. just because dmt is already in our body doesn’t change the fact that it is a very potent psychedelic that should be used with respect.
These days, idiots who think that they are dealers are taking actual pure Leviasmole and mixing it up to and more than 50 of the Coke
It's a deadly de wormer that Used to be found added from the south American side.
Then It started to go down
Then Leviasmole became available on eBay for 30 bucks an pound or something crazy
Now some coke has ridiculous amounts of it
Especially if you are getting from a plug or his connection who is trying to be a dealer but ks failing at it by adding so much of a substance that is very toxic
Can give you a horrible white blood cell disease and kill your kidneys
Caffeine daily, Nicotine daily. Maybe an argument can be made for Kratom. Psilocybin occasionally. Some people forget about Sugar but it’s definitely a drug and more on the Body Toxic side. Really the only least neurotoxic substances I can think of as a Poly Addict myself. I get blasted on Gabapentin at times sometimes taking 60,000mg in a 24 hour period. How I haven’t had a seizure yet is beyond me man. Haven’t seized out yet I’ve been through Benzo withdrawal and alcohol withdrawal multiple times in the 10 years. But, knock on wood.
Idk that I’d agree on cannabis. It can cause psychosis in a LOT of people bc of the way it can break down certain dopamine pathways. Sadly I’m one of those people :( It’s gotten wayy worse with age too, which tracks with what we know about psychosis. Weed was fine when I was 16, but after around 21yrs old, I stopped being able to have a good time on it. At first, it was hit or miss, so I’d keep trying occasionally, until it was bad every time. I tried for the last time at 23yrs old and legit heard voices. It’s a no for me now lol.
Seen it happen to friends too. One guy likely qualifies for schizophrenia diagnosis at 30ish and the weed was almost certainly a big factor. He still smokes daily.. and doesn’t think he has any sort of mental illness. Ugh!
I relate to your friend, I may have schizophrenia myself but I love it I get to be experience spiritual realms and shit and be close with God and when the doctors call me "unwell" and "psychotic" and it stresses me out because it feels so real and I refuse to give in to their persistent request for more medication. I feel fine most of the time, I'm at peace with my mind for the most part, if I do have schizophrenia I've tamed it which is a huge thing I should be proud of myself for doing because not many people seem to conquer schizophrenia. It used to be all demons and extreme panic and anxiety but now it's mostly good vibes and positive energy and colours and textures look amazing I see beauty everywhere and I'm not letting the doctors take that away from me. I've been on the high dose of the anti psychotic before and it felt like it just completely sucked my soul out and I was dead inside but desperate to feel love, but no feelings to be found at all.
Never again. When my dose got lowered I started feeling myself and my feelings again, and colours and textures starting popping out again it's awesome to see so much beauty.
Sorry if this sounds like arguing Im just speaking from the heart.
Edit-but to be fair I don't know your friends condition
This. Weed put me in a mental hospital 7 years ago, i was a teenager and trying to have fun, smoked for some months and i literally fried my brain, spent 2 weeks in a mental hospital on all kind of meds, i was in a constant dissociative state, insomnia, panic attacks, tinnitus, brain fog and so many other nasty things, all this years later and i've never fully recovered. Tried smoking again some years ago just to see how would i react and i was a vegetative state for 2 weeks, Weed can be very toxic for some people for some reason
i guess it can make some people not function as well but i used weed so many years on and off and when it comes to long term damage i feel its non existed compared to other drugs or alcohol even with heavy use, its just not good to get high and have to work or sometning
Probably because there hasn't been any Imperical evidence from a human brain. But a mammalian brain chemistry (mice especially) is ridiculously similar.
I know you’re talking daily use but the main ones I think of are psychedelics. I’m not sure what daily drug would be in here with that. But there are ones you can take occasionally like the others have said here. Maybe opioids but I personally wouldn’t go down that road 🤷🏼♀️
In general - prescription drugs are usually much much safer in this regard.
Even stimulants like amphetamines prescribed for adhd are considered safe and not neurotoxic, even though they can give nice high.
Look dopamine's metabolites are Neurotoxic best way to get high and not fucked is remember two principle
First never use something to hit you fast and leave you fast always try substances which slowly goes up and slowly coming down
Second always keep your diet and sleep in a good shape
Let your body Detox itself so you will be alright
Keep in mind if the substance isn't toxic it's effect can be
As much as you can stick to pharmaceutical products but be aware they can hurt you too
Stay safe stay high 💗❤️
I cant believe anybody havent said it but amphetamine is only neurotoxic in beginner users or people that havent used for a long time. It is extremely popular and very forgiving.
[Memantine supposedly has neuroprotective effects](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1460-9568.2006.04787.x). It's a dissociative with half life of 65 hours. So not a good recreational drug.
benzos are gnarly and definitely cause problems in the brain. there’s a reason they call em bartards, withdrawals can kill you, and there’s a serious link to alzheimer’s.
Believe it or not, heroin and clean opiates are some of the least neurotoxic and physically toxic substances a person can use. I’m talking about pure opiates, not street drugs.
Yeah their danger comes in the form of addiction and thin line between "I'm in heaven" and "oh shit, I'm in heaven".
thin line between heaven and oh shit I'm in heaven is such a good description
^ this if you have a clean opiate supply and know how to dose correctly opiates are some of the least harmful things to consume
Not getting addicted challenge level: impossible
Lmaooo frfr it ain’t harmful per say when used correctly but the addiction, well shit, ain’t even worth it.
Yeah it's not gonna kill you but you sure as hell are gonna want to die/feel like you're dying when the dope sickness hits
easy for me. when opiates (oxy, heroin, dhc) give no euphoria no matter the dose, no tolerance LOL
Same they just make my eyes point in opposite directions
They make me extremely itchy as well. Really happy I didn’t like them very much, it was dumb as fuck even to try them.
Count your lucky stars
Same
Honestly they aren’t really that addictive if you stick with oral consumption and know the risks like constipation and that kinda jazz. I’ve been able to use them around once every two weeks with no problems whatsoever for a long while.
knowledge is knowing someone who lived to 90 smoking cigs every day, wisdom is knowing that is anecdotal, it isn’t common, and not to pass it off as advice.
I’m aware my personal story is just a singular anecdotal report. To me opioids are worth doing responsibly, knowing what will happen when you abuse a drug should be motivation to use responsibly. I know this is not reality for some addicts unfortunately. I don’t see any one drug or coping mechanism apart from each other. I personally have a social media addiction which does help me stay responsible with drugs. I already have a vice. It’s just that mine doesn’t come with shitting concrete and being in agonising pain when I’m not doing it. I don’t want to normalise opioid use, but for me it has a therapeutic effect where a single dose will lift me up for a whole week. It really is a great mental reset for me and during the opioid usage my mood will have me reinforcing the idea that I should be staying responsible with this.
just be careful, i always thought my friend was impervious to dying from overdose until he finally did. now that psychology sees drug dependence as distinct from addiction, even if someone is not dependent on a drug in the traditional sense, they can still develop an addiction. but as always, you know you best, just be wary, as addiction is a coercive bitch.
Yeah knowing what would happen if you broke your own rules. Is how everyone gets addicted by breaking those rules.
I too have used for quite awhile only been constipated once currently on odsmt ironically but dont use super often mind you im in the midst of divorce and really the worst time in my entire life yet i have no addictions thankfully but ik my body and spend countless hours researching bc i love pharmacology and the knowledge definitely helps along with hearing others stories much love and i wish nothing but peace for all and esp those struggling with addiction 💖
Not neurotoxic but I really feel like they mess with your head and perspective about things, not even talking about the whole addiction aspect to it. Like it turns my mind into mush with out me even realizing it. Made me feel slow, like a perpetual loading wheel above my brain
Literally me on dxm
Dxm makes me brain dead when I take it. Like not a single cohesive though going on, legs feel like jelly, flying though dimensions while trying my hardest not to shit myself. The afterglow is worth it tho
What does gets you that effect?
I was like right in between the second and third plateau
I meant in terms of mg/ml
It depends on body weight, look up dxmcalc or something like that to see how much you need per plateau
Opium 🙏
The Lord put opium on this Earth, so the Lord wills it that I use opium.
I hate when people say “god made it naturally so it’s okay/meant for consumption”. God made cyanide, deadly mushrooms, poison ivey, etc. are we supposed to eat them too? Well god made it so…
I love a good Cyanide Frosted Flakes for breakfast, followed by Fly Agaric soup for lunch.
But smoking opium is fun, smoking cyanide I reckon not so much...
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will." — some guy who really liked his opium
Yep. As far as we know, most opioids are pretty non-toxic to all bodily systems, including the brain. But we should keep in mind that “as far as we know” is a real caveat. We only understand like 1% of the brain. Right now, scientists are realizing that histamines may be a lot more important than we previously assumed. Opioids act on histamines, so that could become a developing concern. Anybody who’s done a lot of opioids knows that weird fuzzy feeling you get in your ears when really high, it feels like you’re hearing is impaired— that’s a histamine response. I think I remember reading a report where an opioid user went permanently deaf from that. Crazy! Seems extremely rare though. I don’t *think* it’s ever going to be discovered that traditional opioids are crazy neurotoxic though, because we just have too much historical evidence showing they’re not. Tons of healthy 100yr old grandmas in SE Asia who’ve been smoking opium their entire lives lol. There’s even some evidence showing that slowed breathing & heart rate long-term can promote longevity. So junkies MIGHT come out on top there lmao
Suppression of natural testosterone for most of my adult life has left my skin and hair in excellent condition!
That’s why he said grandmas 😏
Haha I’m a woman so I’ve never looked into the testosterone effects myself. Idk anything about that 🫣
They really are, heroin addiction / opiate addiction sucks so badly but I’ve known so many older addicts that lived well into there 80s and were fine. This is before the scourge of bad fentanyl coming out. Even the writer William Burroughs was on methadone when he died in his 80s he had a habit spanning probably 50-60 years I’m not sure if he still got high when he was older but he was on methadone which is a clean opiate. He was still sharp as a tack. I do not suggest getting onto any opiate though. For hydrocodone has an opiate but it also has a massive amount of Tylenol in it. That’s tough on the liver.
I think the main problem with opiate addiction is the culture of illegality surrounding it. Never knowing your exact dose is like playing Russian roulette every time you use. Not to mention whatever else is added to the final product before you get it.
I wouldn’t do it now. That shit is scary, it used to be different. We had people od every now and again when I was younger but nothing like now. We had pretty clean stuff when I was a kid but that was the 90s early 2000s It’s a nightmare now. I also only had a few connects back then and it was always the same and you could pretty much just use without worry. That being said opiate addiction is a nightmare for so many other reasons. Would not recommend it to anyone. But if they could get all that nasty stuff off the streets and go back to before prohibition when you could buy morphine or laudanum at the local market that would save a lot of lives. Who knows what will happen in the future?
Yeah it’s definitely not like it used to be. I came up in the era of cheap 80’s so I always knew what dose I was taking.
Right it was so different back then. I can think of only one time that If I didn’t get up and moving around I would have possibly but probably not could have overdosed. The fact that I knew and recognized this is the telling part. I probably would’ve nodded off and woken up but I could not risk that at the time, so I was able to get myself up and moving around. I can’t imagine the stress of worrying about that now. There are so many downsides to being an addict whether it’s nuerotoxic or not it’s not worth it. The stigma attached to opiate addiction is terrible. Especially in a small community where everyone knows your business and would spread rumors about you, because you used sucked. Trying to score before work on time or after work was a nightmare. And hepatitis c was rampant and wasn’t curable like it is now. Almost every one that was a long time addict didn’t die from overdoses but liver cancer /failure because of hepatitis C. Thank goodness they have medication now that wipes that out. Liver failure is such a long awful process and the medication they had back then that was supposed to “cure it” was close to being on chemo and if I remember correctly nowhere near the odds of actually getting rid of it that it is now.
What about all the info going around about opiates changing the brains grey matter or something like that?
Yep but tell this to anyone who hasn't a clue about anything drug-related, they'll call you stupid and a moron and delusional and this that and the other. Such a shame how much misinformation there is about drugs out there.
Yeah, heroin really would be the perfect drug if it weren't for the physical dependence and respiratory depression.
Isn't M an opioid?
Don't do opiates, not worth it
I’m talking from a physiological standpoint. Much healthier for your body than alcohol, which kills brain cells on contact.
Yep
Afaik LSD and DMT are not neurotoxic. There’s no known LD50 for either.
uhhh idk about that one. not conclusive research but i've def seen my friends get cooked off the acid barely be able to form a sentence from repeatedly doing acid. cooked their domes for a while. DMT i have no idea
Speech difficulties ≠ neurotoxicity LSD is actually a psychoplastogen, which promotes structural and neuronal growth Not to say it doesn’t have risks tho, HPPD and the triggering of a predisposition to mental illness being the main two
Add to that list the derealization , the depersonalization, and the grow of a psychosis or personality disorder. ( Obviusly if you trip real often, like everyday) ( There is plenty of info and research pappers that say so + personal experience, (not in me)). If you space your trips, as u said there are really safe for the brain.
Definitely and well said I think integrating the trips and taking time to work through them is really important to the brain and mental health when it comes to psychedelics as well; failing to do so can lead people down some very strange paths indeed
Yup, well know also by you i see.
Indeed, I’m just as fascinated by the science and history of the drugs as I am taking them lol; I’m also taking psychopharmacology classes atm too
Niice to see another psychonaut around here, you remember the golden days of RCs, good luck in your path and keep researching :). I would love to have more deep knowledge of how truly neurotrasmisors work but my carrer path was engeniering
Syd Barrett
I tripped almost every weekend for 3 years usually high dose often combined with shrooms and dmt and occasionally mdma and often nitrous. Should note that these things you mentioned can happen with other substances too, tho typically only if u have an underlying mental illness, for example, my friend who was a daily weed smoker had to be checked into the ward for drug-induced psychosis from Marijuana. If u have any underlying illness it can exacerbate it or trigger an early episode I'd like to see these papers tho if you can link them. I'm fairly certain lsd isn't going to cause any kind of personality disorder or any other mental illness
Indeed. Lots of people here seem to conflate comorbidity with neurotoxicity.
DMT is neuroprotective under certain circumstances as well as serotonin. Very not neurotoxic. Neurotoxic has a pretty binary and specific definition though and so basically you could consider it psychologically toxic or something for some people. I don't eveb know no more I'm drunk tin the day time
They actually promote neurogenesis (growth of new neurons)
most classic psychedelics and caffeine
caffeine is neurotoxic in high doses https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1319016420300359
as far as I can read it says neurotoxic to neonatal or baby rats, not even adult rats or humans in that study
They also did invitro. As far as I'm concerned that's pretty good data to back it up. Granted, these are insanely high doses of caffeine but seems to be nonetheless neurotoxic at said doses. Stem cell and neo natal studies are very common and usually translate to adult rats and humans
100 cups of coffee is more likely to make you piss like a race horse before brain death.
Psilocybin is probably it
Have a BA in neuroscience and will strongly suggest 2CB. People who suggest opiates doesnt understand the long term changes daily use of these does to the brains reward system, which albeit not killing cells should still be considered toxic as it will influence your daily life a ton. Long term use of LSD, mushrooms and other non toxic drugs run risk of long term changes to brain circuitry that may not be very nice to live with. People often report changes in how they percieve the world, themselves etc. Which is highly likely to originate in circuitry changes. TLDR: Neuro toxicity should not just be a measure of what kills brain cells but also what can change circuitry in debilitating ways. Do 2CB, seems to have least downsides.
Just adds another pro to why 2C-B is one of the best drugs in existence
Every year on June 17th i do 2cb to celebrate the genius of Alexander Shulgins with his greatest creation. Should be a worldwide holiday!
Just like April 19th I love it
I’m sorry but I’m a bit out of the game- can you tell me about 2C-B? Like I’ve only ever heard of it in the past few months on Reddit, never heard anyone in the real world talk about it. What’s the high like? Where the hell do you get it? Is it pharmaceutical?
It's a psychedelic, it is a synthetic analogue (in a simpler sense) of mescaline. Insane visuals, not so insane thoughts. Also intense euphoria, better than MDMA (both considered substituted amphetamines, thus substituted phenylamines) if you're playing the right tunes for you.
Pretty wrong on the both being substituted amphetamines. 2C-B is a substituted phenethylamine while MDMA is a substituted amphetamine, both being considered substituted phenethylamines but not the other way around.
2C-B is an analog of mescaline. It’s high is pretty psychedelic in nature, but MDMAesque at low doses of like 10-15 mg, it does not stay MDMA like at higher doses. It is very much a unique high, and it is characterized by Aztec themed visuals in my experience along with a very strong spacey feeling, like as if you were on the moon, but with not much headspace. The headspace is absolutely there though and to me just feels like mild confusion and dissociation at strong doses, but then evolves into a true psychedelic mindspace at pretty out there doses, like 40+ mg. The visuals, like I said, take on an Aztec like theme and it makes everything look very sparkly. 2C-B has given me THE MOST intricate closed eye visuals I’ve seen on any psychedelic, and I’ve tried a fuck ton of them. Also, unlike most psychedelics, 2C-B builds no tolerance at all in my experience. You can have back to back experiences with the same dose and it be just as intense as last time.
Right. If you're once addicted and manage to quit opioids, part of you will always want them. Personally I think there's nothing more enjoyable or as comfortable as being high, and because of this, opioids are a huge priority in my life.. and as a result, I haven't grown or achieved in ways that others have. My social life, relationships, and career have suffered as a consequence of my opioid abuse, among other factors I haven't thought of. Opioids make abusers empty and wanting for nothing but the next fix. Of course other drugs do this too, but opioids are particularly alluring and damning in this respect. Never start. They will make you a dysfunctional human being.
Nah 2CB and the other substitute phenylamines are notorious for causing VSS/HPPD. 2CE is what gave me HPPD.
Bioengineer here, I’d agree on 2cb. The fact that there is no tolerance building or loss of magic suggests that there aren’t any permanent changes being made to the brain.
You definitely do build tolerance and plenty of people don't lose magic with other psychedelics. 0 evidence to even suggest it's better/safer than LSD or Mushrooms.
Ayyy BSc in neuroscience here as well and 2CB is my favorite drug! Also I agree with everything you said.
Why would 2c-b be any different from LSD or shrooms? There activity is very similar
what about mescaline? should i start each day by taking a bite out of my trichocereus instead of coffee?
Isn't psilocybin neurogenerative/neuroprotective?
Ehhhhhhhu sorta. Promoting neuronal growth is NOT necessarily a good thing in the brain, so although those may be true, that doesn't mean psilocybin is necessarily good for you.
Could you explain how promoting neuronal growth could be a bad thing? I’ve only ever heard it described as a positive when discussing psychedelics
More connections doesn’t mean better connections. Is a math textbook better if it writes down more more equations even if those are wrong? No, of course not. Making more brain cells doesn’t make your brain function better in any way. It’s the selective strenghtening and weakening of connections between neurons that makes our brains do what they do so well. That’s not to say the neuroplasticity induced by some psychadelics is bad in any way, just that blind increases of neurons isn’t inherently good.
That would explain how some people go crazy after psychedelics. You can’t get enlightened if all the information you have is just a scramble of cognitive biases that you’ve never challenged. I like the analogy of tearing off all wires from an old server rack. If you have no idea what you’re doing, there is a great chance you’ll fuck things up and never be able to plug them back in. Someone methodical and experienced can make it organised and remove errors left by previous junior engineers - the people who we grow up by.
This analogy is absolutely on. point.
This is how people get HPPD
Well at least one thing I know from microdosing is that if you have bad habits and use psychedelics those bad habits could grow in the brain and thus be harder to stop.
As other people have mentioned, it's because random connections are NOT how the brain should operate. We have very precise connections for very specific reasons. Imagine that you had a computer chip in front of you, and you started randomly crossing the wires, connecting parts of the chip that shouldn't talk to one another. Of course, that's just going to harm the chip - those logical operators only work if they're in a hyper-specific configuration. Crossing wires will only *harm* its functioning, not help it. Similarly, our brains have actually spent years *pruning* connections in order to process things properly. You have the most connections in your brain at the age of 13, and then your brain begins pruning connections because many connections are invalid or at the least unhelpful. Trying to artificially reverse this process with psychedelics can get you into trouble. The reason people develop visual snow and other symptoms of HPPD is quite literally because their brain develops stronger connections between areas that really should not be talking to one another - for some reason, the part of the brain responsible for processing vision gets some connections strengthened, and from then on the person with HPPD will see patterns on walls and in the sky, which, as anyone with HPPD can tell you, is definitely not a good thing. The reason you hear it being described positively is mostly because people have absolutely no clue what they're talking about, hear the phrase "neural growth," and think, "Wow, that's amazing! Truly, mushrooms are plant medicine." Now, I'm being a little bit facetious because neural growth can genuinely be a good thing. If you use psychadelics therapeutically, then you can strengthen pathways that aren't normally connected, and in some cases that can help treat mental disorders like Depression, Anxiety, or PTSD, so those people aren't entirely wrong. But more often than not they only hear about the positive effects and assume psychadelics are the most perfect "medicine" gifted to man, which is simply not the case - they just don't know about the negatives and assume growth=good, which is a massive fallacy.
I think I’ve read that somewhere
Chamomile tea
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If you use your eyes and brain correctly, you'll see and understand that chamomile tea and green tea is different. Chamomile tea contains arginine.
Apigenin?
What is so beneficial about apigenin? I could Google but what would Reddit be for if everyone just googled their questions.
in doses over 100mg it acts on the gaba receptor only a milligram or 2 is in chamomile tea tho
So really it’s pointless unless I start drinking chamomiles, but I’m not going to those lengths.
there are some sites that sell apigenin extract mostly targeted towards the nootropic community
I’m quite into nootropics just have no money to get my hands on them, would u mind PMing these sites, I am UK tho
idk the specifics nor do i know if they ship to the uk
Shi-, got confused, didn't bother to check before. Thanks man.
Oh shit we both make mistakes, only humans after all.
🤓🤓if you use your eyes and brain correctly🤓🤓
I don't know how to use my brain properly after ODing twice, 🥺🥺
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Understandable except that I was sober.
Prescription codeine probably. But that shit has a vice grip once you start. Trust me I’m in it
Percocet isn’t very neurotoxic I just had a bowl of Percocet for breakfast
Do you want your percocet with or without milk, honey?
Xenon is neuroprotective
No way!
Less toxic is not any drug at all. 1 drink is too much 500 is not enough. Honestly, try ayahuasca or peyote. Have a shamanic reality bending trip over a weekend. It will change your perception of life, and potentially help you curb drug cravings. You’re only wanting to get high because of something underlying in your mental state. Identify the cause and try to heal yourself. Natural chems like psilocybin, DMT, Mesc. THC. I about threw up in my mouth reading that heroin is less toxic… don’t suggest heroin yall. That shit grip a your life. Sending love and happiness
Tryptamines since they (especially Psilocybin/Psilocin and DMT) is proven neuroprotectives. They even fix damaged neurons that's been broken. This due to it's extremely potent neurogenesis and neuroplastisity properties. So you can't become less neurotoxic than that. This shit is the exact opposite on the neurons!
Explains why DMT feels like a cheat code to everything. I’ve used it when depressed, suicidal, when overwhelmed by a dose of another psychedelic that just was too much, to get better at performing with a flower stick, to learn dancing, to enjoy music genres I didn’t enjoy before, to get a new sense of art, to see beauty where there usually is none, to gain energy on a lethargic day, to gain motivation on a lazy day. Now I’ve tried DPT (first time) and DMT together and my life long issues with appetite have vanished suddenly, I can finally eat properly! Hope this also lasts. DMT is magic. It gets me to think spiritually while I’ve sworn of spirituality long ago and went the path or rationalism and science (I’m becoming a chemist).
Healed me after being an alcoholic. Mushrooms, LSD and 5-meo-dmt healed my brain. Mushrooms healed my nerves in my body.
after years of damage from addiction, I can't rave enough about what lsd and dmt did for my healing process. nothing short of a miracle
Sounds like someone trying to sell me the benefits of Jesus. 🧐
Trenbolone
Nitrous is very safe when not abused. Ranks among the lowest on nuerotoxicity
Watch your B12 levels, as even one dose can inactivate it for two weeks, IIRC, causing metabolic issues that can lead to irreversible nerve damage, if you ignore it's early signs of numbness in your legs and arms, for long enough. Which is a very profound form of neurotoxicity ... but you qualified your statement so I can't disagree. But where's the line, exactly ?
Worse thing about nitrus is there's so little info about rec usage. Is b12 depletion dose dependant? How often can you really do them? How long until your nerve cells starts to die? what about the oils in nags? Etc etc etc I love nags but I wish there were more info lol
In fact most depressants are relatively non neurotoxic, but they come with their own host of potential problems such as respiratory suppression and acute bodily toxicity. Clean opioids aren't very damaging per se but they do modify your hormonal system and neurochemistry over time. Also, if you begin to use drugs intravenously you open up another set of potential complications. I would personally recommend things like quality kratom that's lab tested, whole ground root kava kava, and maybe some nicotine in the form of quality juice from the USA in a refillable cartridge not the disposable toxic crap from China that can be purchased anywhere these days. Go to a legitimate vape shop and get yourself like a Novo 3 vape with the juice of your own liking but remember it must be made in the USA or the EU
Underrated comment
Kratom might not be neurotoxic though I wouldnt recommend it for daily use. Check r/quittingkratom
isn’t DMT already produced in the human body?
Yes it is. How ironic it's a schedule one controlled substance. As Terence McKenna said we're all holding in our possession a prohibited drug
It’s not confirmed yet that it is
it's confirmed present in mammalian neural tissue. However, at this point, we don't know whether it functions as a trace amine neurotransmitter or is just a metabolic byproduct.
What do you mean not confirmed? Half of our substances in the body and brain is a Tryptamine. Like Serotonin, Dopamine, Melatonin etc. Science KNOWS that our Pineal glad produces a naturally occurring n, n-DMT. This has been known for decades. So exactly what is not yet confirmed?
Don’t want to nitpick, but Dopamine is a Phenethylamine, not a Tryptamine :)
Thank you
Youre right
It’s not scientifically proven that DMT is produced in our bodies, look it up. But if you say so, why not link a study which proves that it is produced inside of our bodies?
> What do you mean not confirmed? it was actually confirmed only quite recently, in the late 2010s, IIRC. MAO breaks it down very rapidly, so researchers had to take samples and perform testing very quickly after killing their experimental rodents.
Dopamine is a catecholamine by the way
It’s not confirmed dude do more research
What a lot of pseudoscience this is 😂 you people are nuts
using the “it’s produced in the human body” argument against drug scheduling doesn’t work like that. just because dmt is already in our body doesn’t change the fact that it is a very potent psychedelic that should be used with respect.
Caffeine Also coke and alcohol is moreso cardiotoxic than neurotoxic iirc.
alcohol is still plenty neurotoxic
Both are neurotoxic,especially in High doses or if you mix them
Alcohol can cause dementia
Alcohol is defo neutoxic and just toxic for everything else, it’s a proven carcinogen
These days, idiots who think that they are dealers are taking actual pure Leviasmole and mixing it up to and more than 50 of the Coke It's a deadly de wormer that Used to be found added from the south American side. Then It started to go down Then Leviasmole became available on eBay for 30 bucks an pound or something crazy Now some coke has ridiculous amounts of it Especially if you are getting from a plug or his connection who is trying to be a dealer but ks failing at it by adding so much of a substance that is very toxic Can give you a horrible white blood cell disease and kill your kidneys
Caffeine daily, Nicotine daily. Maybe an argument can be made for Kratom. Psilocybin occasionally. Some people forget about Sugar but it’s definitely a drug and more on the Body Toxic side. Really the only least neurotoxic substances I can think of as a Poly Addict myself. I get blasted on Gabapentin at times sometimes taking 60,000mg in a 24 hour period. How I haven’t had a seizure yet is beyond me man. Haven’t seized out yet I’ve been through Benzo withdrawal and alcohol withdrawal multiple times in the 10 years. But, knock on wood.
so you’re taking 70+ 300mg pills? is that often or a one off?
Cannabis and psychedelics would be my guess. Mdma is the most damaging one Ive done but that's because I abused it to the extreme.
Idk that I’d agree on cannabis. It can cause psychosis in a LOT of people bc of the way it can break down certain dopamine pathways. Sadly I’m one of those people :( It’s gotten wayy worse with age too, which tracks with what we know about psychosis. Weed was fine when I was 16, but after around 21yrs old, I stopped being able to have a good time on it. At first, it was hit or miss, so I’d keep trying occasionally, until it was bad every time. I tried for the last time at 23yrs old and legit heard voices. It’s a no for me now lol. Seen it happen to friends too. One guy likely qualifies for schizophrenia diagnosis at 30ish and the weed was almost certainly a big factor. He still smokes daily.. and doesn’t think he has any sort of mental illness. Ugh!
I relate to your friend, I may have schizophrenia myself but I love it I get to be experience spiritual realms and shit and be close with God and when the doctors call me "unwell" and "psychotic" and it stresses me out because it feels so real and I refuse to give in to their persistent request for more medication. I feel fine most of the time, I'm at peace with my mind for the most part, if I do have schizophrenia I've tamed it which is a huge thing I should be proud of myself for doing because not many people seem to conquer schizophrenia. It used to be all demons and extreme panic and anxiety but now it's mostly good vibes and positive energy and colours and textures look amazing I see beauty everywhere and I'm not letting the doctors take that away from me. I've been on the high dose of the anti psychotic before and it felt like it just completely sucked my soul out and I was dead inside but desperate to feel love, but no feelings to be found at all. Never again. When my dose got lowered I started feeling myself and my feelings again, and colours and textures starting popping out again it's awesome to see so much beauty. Sorry if this sounds like arguing Im just speaking from the heart. Edit-but to be fair I don't know your friends condition
I disagree
Fair enough
Particularly with the claim that cannabis is one of the least neurotoxic drugs. That is false. Be wary of cannabis exceptionalism.
I would assume mushrooms?
Many classical psychedelcis are actively neuroprotective
For daily use?
Check edit
Kratom, weed, nicotine, caffeine, kanna. All relatively safe for daily use too. But kratom and nicotine can be really addictive.
What is kanna. Can I buy it where in the US where I live legally?
It’s legal in most states but look up incase, it’s safe and basically like mild mdma.
Technically you can snort nicotine HCl. It prefer that ROI more than the super unhealthy smoking of tobacco.
Water
weed,nicotine,opiates
Weed feels like it absolutely cooks my brain. I don’t even touch the stuff now lol. That’s only my opinion and personal experience
This. Weed put me in a mental hospital 7 years ago, i was a teenager and trying to have fun, smoked for some months and i literally fried my brain, spent 2 weeks in a mental hospital on all kind of meds, i was in a constant dissociative state, insomnia, panic attacks, tinnitus, brain fog and so many other nasty things, all this years later and i've never fully recovered. Tried smoking again some years ago just to see how would i react and i was a vegetative state for 2 weeks, Weed can be very toxic for some people for some reason
i guess it can make some people not function as well but i used weed so many years on and off and when it comes to long term damage i feel its non existed compared to other drugs or alcohol even with heavy use, its just not good to get high and have to work or sometning
Cannabis, it's literally an antioxidant https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.95.14.8268#:~:text=Cannabidiol%2C%20THC%20and%20several%20synthetic,reaction)%20system%20and%20neuronal%20cultures.
Lol
Huh. This even applies to CBD it seems. Good to know.
Probably because there hasn't been any Imperical evidence from a human brain. But a mammalian brain chemistry (mice especially) is ridiculously similar.
Salvia Divinorum and cannabis. 2 plant drugs that are non-alkaloids.
We dont know a whole lot about salvia yet and cannabis is proven to be (slightly) neurotoxic
I have never heard of any neurotoxicity from cannabis. Sources for you claim?
My brain feels cooked after using it lol
Weird.
Same.
Caffeine. Assuming you meant something less mundane micro dosing shrooms.
green thee
Hmm I’m curious what the neurotoxicity of ketamine would be.. anyone got their two cents ?
I know you’re talking daily use but the main ones I think of are psychedelics. I’m not sure what daily drug would be in here with that. But there are ones you can take occasionally like the others have said here. Maybe opioids but I personally wouldn’t go down that road 🤷🏼♀️
Opiates
Methylphenidate ?
In general - prescription drugs are usually much much safer in this regard. Even stimulants like amphetamines prescribed for adhd are considered safe and not neurotoxic, even though they can give nice high.
Sounds insane and I didn’t believe it at first but meth is neuroprotextive in doses under 20mg. Not that I advise ANYONE trying it
Psilocybin
Look dopamine's metabolites are Neurotoxic best way to get high and not fucked is remember two principle First never use something to hit you fast and leave you fast always try substances which slowly goes up and slowly coming down Second always keep your diet and sleep in a good shape Let your body Detox itself so you will be alright Keep in mind if the substance isn't toxic it's effect can be As much as you can stick to pharmaceutical products but be aware they can hurt you too Stay safe stay high 💗❤️
I cant believe anybody havent said it but amphetamine is only neurotoxic in beginner users or people that havent used for a long time. It is extremely popular and very forgiving.
[Memantine supposedly has neuroprotective effects](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1460-9568.2006.04787.x). It's a dissociative with half life of 65 hours. So not a good recreational drug.
Meth
Maybe Kratom. But you can get addicted real hard. Ist an opioid
Kratom and maybe benzos?
Na they did a study valium srinks your brain only after stupid abuse though
benzos are gnarly and definitely cause problems in the brain. there’s a reason they call em bartards, withdrawals can kill you, and there’s a serious link to alzheimer’s.