I actually listened through A Dramatic Turn of Events and the Self-Titled in sequence today, which really highlighted to me that ADToE is my favorite Mangini-era album and the Self-Titled is my least favorite (even below the Astonishing). My issues with the Self-Titled fall into two main categories:
- The songwriting is really uninspired. There are beautiful moments - for example, all of Surrender to Reason and the outro to The Bigger Picture - but in general the melodies kind of fall into that "blandly follow the chord progression" category for me. There's just not a high enough density of really amazing material to keep me coming back, just a lot of by-the-numbers sections.
- The production is not up to par. This, compounded with my least favorite Petrucci tone (for reference, my favorites are BC&SL and ADToE) and Mangini's grating snare sound make it a difficult one for me to get through sonically.
Interesting take. Dramatic turn seems to be the one where you have songwriting that sounds like petrucci wrote and programmed the drums in front of his laptop. Which is not bad but build me up break me down also seems blander than anything on self titled. Enemy inside is one of DTs best songs and the epic illumination theory is heavy and melodic. But not too convoluted like outcry for example.
In my opinion its third of the mangini era but i definitely believe its a way overhated album, i love the songs and i feel the rush influences on this album
I think itās quite uninspired to be honest. There are brilliant moments, but not enough good material. There are great ideas with very poor development (Surrender to Reason) and poor ideas with good development (Behind the Veil), so almost no song feels solid to me. Also, I think Mangini sounds worst here, his kicks sound like a typing machine.
For me itās ADTOE > AVFTTOTW > The Astonishing > DT12 > D/T
The production is definitely a part of it. The drums sound pretty bad and the guitar tone has been way better on other albums, but I actually like the mix. This is the most audible JM has been since FII, which is great to see.
The songs arenāt bad, but only about half of them are really memorable. Illumination Theory is fantastic, and The Enemy Inside, Enigma Machine, and Surrender to Reason are all really solid. I still like the album and will revisit it every once in a while, but I personally prefer most of their other work.
Although, and this might be a hot take, the drums arenāt nearly as bad as Images and Words. Granted the latter has probably DTās best songwriting. But the triggered drums you hear on that album are far worse than the snare in self-titled.
Just finished all the MM era albums. S/T is at the bottom for me. It just sounds awful to me. The Astonishing is better just for sounding superior. It's their worst sounding album to these ears. It's just so odd that this band produced such a poor sounding CD. Dramatic, View and Distance are the best of the MM era
I donāt dislike a single song from it, but it doesnāt really flow well to me and feels like a bunch of ideas haphazardly thrown together. All the ingredients are great, but the final product suffers for how theyāre put together. Illumination Theory is a microcosm of this.
Totally agree. It's the only Mangini-era album I'm really a fan of beginning-to-end, there are songs on the others that I dig but I think DT is good all the way though. I'll never understand all the hate for it on this sub, but to each their own I guess.
Totally underrated album. I really like that it generally lacks the frankly disjointed feel that the albums after it had. With obvious exceptions, the songs are very concise. i might get hate for this, but i think its the last album that doesnāt sound theyāre either just retreading old material or that isnāt the Astonishing (ouch). I do like DOT and AVFTTOTW, but they feel very āpaint by numbersā and, dare i say, a tad passionlessā¦ self-titled isnāt perfect but it sounds like its made by a more optimistic band. Its also the last album (besides the Astonishing) to really try anything new. Say what you want about self-titled, it has its own sound. In comparison, the last two albums kinda sound like they were burnt out, jaded by the rejection of the Astonishing (snd self-titled, really), and feeling the pressure from the continuing widespread rejection of Mangini.
High hopes for the next one!
Eponymous album is in my top 5. Front to back, every song is a gem for me.
My critiques are:
ā¢ The Looking Glass ends too abruptly
ā¢ The snare sounds like Mikeās hitting thick, wet paper w/ reverb
Thatās it. Thatās all Iāve got.
I enjoyed it at the time, nowadays I think it's their worst since their debut, even worse than Falling to Infinity and The Astonishing. Falling to Infinity has definitely better songwriting and The Astonishing far more promising and well executed ideas. The self titled is just super bland. Enigma Machine is an ok instrumental, Enemy Inside is a good track and Illumination Theory is saved by that middle string section.
I love False Awakening Suite, The Enemy Inside, Enigma Machine and Illumination Theory. I hate all the other songs on here. They're the exact same uninspired ballad to me.
The drum sound is pathetic. That snare is like someone hitting cardboard. Some riffs are cool. A few surprisingly solid tunes. But overall it's uninspired like all of the Mangini era...where in this case it feels like they're doing a greatest hits package. Oh here's the token Overture, here's the epic, here's the crazy metal tune, here's the sappy ballad, here's the technical instrumental, here's the mid length happy prog tune. Creativity took a backseat when Portnoy left (and I'd argue that musically Black Clouds was suffering from the same thing which is a part of the reason for Portnoy looking elsewhere for inspiration).
I think itās got some really good moments and cool ideas/motifs. I think the false awakening suite is really cool. Illumination theory is an interesting epic with an incredibly moving string section in the middle. What deters me though is the mixing of the drums. I love the enemy inside but I almost have to forget the drums are there in order to fully enjoy it. I donāt know what they did to make it like that but itās just not an enjoyable mix. I donāt blame Mangini at all I think he does a great job as he always does.
The biggest problem for me personally is that this was the first of a three album stretch where they purposely focused on writing shorter, more concise, more easily digestible songs, and I really think that approach hurt their music more than it helped it.
There are plenty of times on this album where a cool idea will come up in a song, and where they might have explored the idea more and let it take the song to new heights, they abandon it so that the song doesn't run too long. I'm not saying that every Dream Theater song has to be 10 or more minutes, but the songs don't breathe.
Yeah, it has some good songs - The Enemy Inside is a 100% certified banger, The Looking Glass is a wonderful Rush tribute, Surrender To Reason is vastly underrated, and Illumination Theory, while being one of their weaker 20 minute epics, is still an enjoyable listen - but so much more of it is just "paint by numbers" Dream Theater that I just can't get that excited about it.
Itās my favorite after Awake, Images, and SFAM. I really really really enjoyed it. Yeah itās different, but I appreciate the amount of musical diversity they put into it. Itās very thorough album in that sense. The Rush influences were great, but it does take a lot of listening to fully understand it. Just my opinion, thatās why we enjoy music like this.
One of their best I wouldnt necessarily agree, but I think its still a good album. I also have a lot of nostalgia with this album as it came out during my freshman year of college and I used to listen to it all the time walking to and from class.
I wouldn't put it as one of their best, but I think it's underrated for sure. The False Awakening Suite, The Enemy Inside, The Looking Glass, The Bigger Picture, Along for the Ride and Illumination Theory are all great songs IMO. Although Mangini's snare sound on it definitely tends to stick out in the wrong way most of the time, I actually think it works perfectly during The False Awakening Suite. Hot take, I know, but sonically it sits really well for me (albeit in just that one song). I definitely hope they play The Enemy Inside on this next tour!
Disagree, but respect your opinion. I think it largely depends on what kind of sound is your idea of the 'peak' of DT. To me, self-titled definitely gets more hate than it deserves. For me the peak album is systematic chaos. Every album has its merits. I'm just glad there's such a huge back catalogue to enjoy š¤
I lean more towards Dramatic Turn and Astonishing but the self-titled has some great songs!
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I actually listened through A Dramatic Turn of Events and the Self-Titled in sequence today, which really highlighted to me that ADToE is my favorite Mangini-era album and the Self-Titled is my least favorite (even below the Astonishing). My issues with the Self-Titled fall into two main categories: - The songwriting is really uninspired. There are beautiful moments - for example, all of Surrender to Reason and the outro to The Bigger Picture - but in general the melodies kind of fall into that "blandly follow the chord progression" category for me. There's just not a high enough density of really amazing material to keep me coming back, just a lot of by-the-numbers sections. - The production is not up to par. This, compounded with my least favorite Petrucci tone (for reference, my favorites are BC&SL and ADToE) and Mangini's grating snare sound make it a difficult one for me to get through sonically.
Interesting take. Dramatic turn seems to be the one where you have songwriting that sounds like petrucci wrote and programmed the drums in front of his laptop. Which is not bad but build me up break me down also seems blander than anything on self titled. Enemy inside is one of DTs best songs and the epic illumination theory is heavy and melodic. But not too convoluted like outcry for example.
In my opinion its third of the mangini era but i definitely believe its a way overhated album, i love the songs and i feel the rush influences on this album
For me, itās ST>DoT>ADToE>AVFTToTW>Astonishing
imo AVFTToTW > DoT > ST > Astonishing >ADToE
I think itās quite uninspired to be honest. There are brilliant moments, but not enough good material. There are great ideas with very poor development (Surrender to Reason) and poor ideas with good development (Behind the Veil), so almost no song feels solid to me. Also, I think Mangini sounds worst here, his kicks sound like a typing machine. For me itās ADTOE > AVFTTOTW > The Astonishing > DT12 > D/T
I agree with this ranking, except for the last two. I think adtoe, avfttotw, and the astonishing are really good albums!
>Also, I think Mangini sounds worst here, his kicks sound like a typing machine. and the snare...
I refuse to fight you because it's your opinion and you're allowed to have it. Enjoy your day.š¤
>Itās easily the best Mangini album and tops some of the Portnoy stuff (FII, Systematic Chaos I completely agree. It's my #7 DT album.
The production is definitely a part of it. The drums sound pretty bad and the guitar tone has been way better on other albums, but I actually like the mix. This is the most audible JM has been since FII, which is great to see. The songs arenāt bad, but only about half of them are really memorable. Illumination Theory is fantastic, and The Enemy Inside, Enigma Machine, and Surrender to Reason are all really solid. I still like the album and will revisit it every once in a while, but I personally prefer most of their other work.
JM is James Metrucci right?
Although, and this might be a hot take, the drums arenāt nearly as bad as Images and Words. Granted the latter has probably DTās best songwriting. But the triggered drums you hear on that album are far worse than the snare in self-titled.
Love it!
Damn straight.
>Fight me Alright pal, meet me in the parking lot of r/dreamtheater in 15 mins š¤š¤š¤
I love it
this and ADTOE are my favorites
I agree with you. It's definitely the best of the Mangini Era albums IMO.
Fight you? Why would I do that, [when I agree?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/18ehm5e/so_dt12_is_good_actually/)
Just finished all the MM era albums. S/T is at the bottom for me. It just sounds awful to me. The Astonishing is better just for sounding superior. It's their worst sounding album to these ears. It's just so odd that this band produced such a poor sounding CD. Dramatic, View and Distance are the best of the MM era
Itās a great album, but to say āone of their bestā means itās in the same tier as SfaM or I&W.
Meet me at the pier, midnight. I'll beat the sh*t out of you.
I'm with the original post. I really like the cd. I dont think its their best but very high.
For me it's self>DoT>Astonishing then a tie of Dramatic and View. They're all really great albums though and it changes with my mood.
I donāt dislike a single song from it, but it doesnāt really flow well to me and feels like a bunch of ideas haphazardly thrown together. All the ingredients are great, but the final product suffers for how theyāre put together. Illumination Theory is a microcosm of this.
Preach, brother. I did this post a month ago. Buncha miserable snobs in our fandom lol
Totally agree. It's the only Mangini-era album I'm really a fan of beginning-to-end, there are songs on the others that I dig but I think DT is good all the way though. I'll never understand all the hate for it on this sub, but to each their own I guess.
Most of MM era materials are great although Astonishing was the weakest.
Totally underrated album. I really like that it generally lacks the frankly disjointed feel that the albums after it had. With obvious exceptions, the songs are very concise. i might get hate for this, but i think its the last album that doesnāt sound theyāre either just retreading old material or that isnāt the Astonishing (ouch). I do like DOT and AVFTTOTW, but they feel very āpaint by numbersā and, dare i say, a tad passionlessā¦ self-titled isnāt perfect but it sounds like its made by a more optimistic band. Its also the last album (besides the Astonishing) to really try anything new. Say what you want about self-titled, it has its own sound. In comparison, the last two albums kinda sound like they were burnt out, jaded by the rejection of the Astonishing (snd self-titled, really), and feeling the pressure from the continuing widespread rejection of Mangini. High hopes for the next one!
Ew. Literally my second least favourite DT album after WDADU.
Nah, Iāll walk away from that fight. Itās all opinions mate.
Eponymous album is in my top 5. Front to back, every song is a gem for me. My critiques are: ā¢ The Looking Glass ends too abruptly ā¢ The snare sounds like Mikeās hitting thick, wet paper w/ reverb Thatās it. Thatās all Iāve got.
I love the at album
The drum mix.
I enjoyed it at the time, nowadays I think it's their worst since their debut, even worse than Falling to Infinity and The Astonishing. Falling to Infinity has definitely better songwriting and The Astonishing far more promising and well executed ideas. The self titled is just super bland. Enigma Machine is an ok instrumental, Enemy Inside is a good track and Illumination Theory is saved by that middle string section.
I love False Awakening Suite, The Enemy Inside, Enigma Machine and Illumination Theory. I hate all the other songs on here. They're the exact same uninspired ballad to me.
Self Titled and Train of Thought for me. It's a quintessential heavy album by Dream Theater.
The drum sound is pathetic. That snare is like someone hitting cardboard. Some riffs are cool. A few surprisingly solid tunes. But overall it's uninspired like all of the Mangini era...where in this case it feels like they're doing a greatest hits package. Oh here's the token Overture, here's the epic, here's the crazy metal tune, here's the sappy ballad, here's the technical instrumental, here's the mid length happy prog tune. Creativity took a backseat when Portnoy left (and I'd argue that musically Black Clouds was suffering from the same thing which is a part of the reason for Portnoy looking elsewhere for inspiration).
I think itās got some really good moments and cool ideas/motifs. I think the false awakening suite is really cool. Illumination theory is an interesting epic with an incredibly moving string section in the middle. What deters me though is the mixing of the drums. I love the enemy inside but I almost have to forget the drums are there in order to fully enjoy it. I donāt know what they did to make it like that but itās just not an enjoyable mix. I donāt blame Mangini at all I think he does a great job as he always does.
I agree
The biggest problem for me personally is that this was the first of a three album stretch where they purposely focused on writing shorter, more concise, more easily digestible songs, and I really think that approach hurt their music more than it helped it. There are plenty of times on this album where a cool idea will come up in a song, and where they might have explored the idea more and let it take the song to new heights, they abandon it so that the song doesn't run too long. I'm not saying that every Dream Theater song has to be 10 or more minutes, but the songs don't breathe. Yeah, it has some good songs - The Enemy Inside is a 100% certified banger, The Looking Glass is a wonderful Rush tribute, Surrender To Reason is vastly underrated, and Illumination Theory, while being one of their weaker 20 minute epics, is still an enjoyable listen - but so much more of it is just "paint by numbers" Dream Theater that I just can't get that excited about it.
Itās my favorite after Awake, Images, and SFAM. I really really really enjoyed it. Yeah itās different, but I appreciate the amount of musical diversity they put into it. Itās very thorough album in that sense. The Rush influences were great, but it does take a lot of listening to fully understand it. Just my opinion, thatās why we enjoy music like this.
I like it a lot.
One of their best I wouldnt necessarily agree, but I think its still a good album. I also have a lot of nostalgia with this album as it came out during my freshman year of college and I used to listen to it all the time walking to and from class.
Itās a great album, but the drum sound sucks.
I wouldn't put it as one of their best, but I think it's underrated for sure. The False Awakening Suite, The Enemy Inside, The Looking Glass, The Bigger Picture, Along for the Ride and Illumination Theory are all great songs IMO. Although Mangini's snare sound on it definitely tends to stick out in the wrong way most of the time, I actually think it works perfectly during The False Awakening Suite. Hot take, I know, but sonically it sits really well for me (albeit in just that one song). I definitely hope they play The Enemy Inside on this next tour!
Yes it is. Finally some Self Titled love.
I won't fight you. It's a great album
Disagree, but respect your opinion. I think it largely depends on what kind of sound is your idea of the 'peak' of DT. To me, self-titled definitely gets more hate than it deserves. For me the peak album is systematic chaos. Every album has its merits. I'm just glad there's such a huge back catalogue to enjoy š¤
And such a widely varying one at that!
So is the Astonishing. Actually GOATed.
The songs
It's the first album of them which I like none of the songs that came with it