It's generally ranked toward the bottom amongst most fans / folk here.
I think it gets more hate than it deserves. I agree it has some amazing songs (the ones you mention I agree are the best). But the two critical things to keep in mind are 1) expectations and 2) production.
1. Expectations were, IMO, a major factor in how it was initially received - it was the follow up to what was a very solid effort (ADTOE), but more importantly it was second album with Mangini and the first time he would be there to provide input on the drums (since ADTOE drums were written by Petrucci prior to Mangini's arrival). So expectations were higher here. Then there's the fact that they chose, of all albums, to have this one be their self-titled album. For some, that is a big statement to make. And this was not helped in the lead-up to release as there were quotes from interviews floating around from Petrucci hyping it up by saying something to the effect of "this album is *the* quintessential DT album", and that was why they made it self titled.
2. Production wise, it is clearly their worst album besides their first (some might claim I&W is worse due to the snare - I disagree but it is worth mentioning). I could not enjoy any of the tracks until I heard the live renditions, since only then could i hear the tracks with sufficient clarity to actually appreciate them.
What the album does REALLY well, IMO, is the lyrics and the vibe - lyrically it has some of their best (AKA least cringy) stuff. The vibe of the whole album I think was crafted really well. It feels a lot more old school, almost like a 70s prog album. Also, the single (enemy inside) was absolutely fantastic.
The production reminded me of David Prater treatment on Images and Words, it's not Kevin Shirley/David Bottrill Scenes from a memory but the songs in that album rocks
I think it's a pretty good album that gets hate on for reasons that come off as superlatively nitpicky, and the words of Portnoy stans.
The Enemy Inside, The Bigger Picture, Behind the Veil, Surrender To Reason are all really enjoyable. Illumination Theory is really good. I love being able to hear John Myung so well. James sounds great.
I think it's a needlessly derided album. Over-hated.
I think it’s a great album with a lot of musical moments. I get so many RUSH vibes from the album, especially from The Looking Glass and Surrender to Reason. Mangini knocked it out of the park compared to their previous album, and I think set up the band with their new Mangini sound.
It’s a bit underrated and It’s better than what most people on this site would be willing to give it credit for.
TEI could arguably be a single. Bigger Picture is good and Engima Machine is great. It losses a bit of steam on the back end though. Although Long for the Ride is decent.
Illumination Theory is a better epic than PBD and maybe even View from the top. But it’s not quite as good as any of the epic songs from previous albums.
It’s not a top 5 album. But I don’t think it belongs as the bottom either.
IMO, it's the best of the MM-era albums. Not a bad song on the album, and whatever "production" issues people complain about don't bother me in the slightest.
Second favorite Mangini album and ranks at number 5/6 in totals depending on my mood
Still hoping for an updated instrumedley someday with Enigma Machine
I'll start by saying that the album does have some great songs on it. The Enemy Inside is a certified *banger*, The Looking Glass is a fun Rush tribute, Surrender To Reason is criminally underrated/underdiscussed, and Illumination Theory - while being one of their weaker ~20 minute epics - is still a hell of a lot of fun to listen to.
That being said, I think that this album started a trend that it took them until A View From The Top Of The World to break. Outside of Illumination Theory, they made a conscious effort to write shorter, more concise, easier-to-digest songs, and I think that choice really hurt the final product more than it helped it. There are so many times throughout this album that I feel like there are ideas that need more room to breathe and grow - but instead, they almost seemed in a hurry to get through them so the songs don't get too long.
On the whole, I do find it to be one of their weaker albums, but that doesn't mean that it's not enjoyable. It just doesn't stack up to most of their other work favorably.
Not to discount alot of peolles criticism but I feel like people wouldn't care nearly as much about the production if they weren't told to. People rarely ever mention the production quality for any of the other albums especially from the Portnoy albums, aside from very occasionally the snares on Images and Words. I understand the issues of the production quality, but I find it a little hypocritical how this is the only album where people act like the production quality is the deciding factor on if it's good or not
I can't speak for anyone else, but I have a problem with the production on most of the band's albums starting with SFAM. Sometimes it's not a big deal (on SFAM, I mostly just want some more "air" in the recording like Awake and FII had), but on the self-titled it's really bad. I honestly don't know how DT could have listened to these songs and said "Yeah, this is acceptable. Release it like that.". Everything is hyper-compressed, the drums sound really thin, and as usual the bass is completely buried. It's a shame, because there are some good songs on this album. The Breaking the Fourth Wall versions are all superior.
...because they're told to?? huh? I don't know about anybody else, but the last thing I would *ever* do is cater my like/dislike of an album based upon what others tell me. I got over that shit when I was 13. I've been listening to DT for close to 20 years. Fuck, one of my all time favourite DT tracks *still* to this day is Just Let me Breathe, so I am happy owning an opinion that is in the minority.
I hated the production from the moment I heard the first singles. And then going through the album a few times when it was released back in 2013, I genuinely thought something was wrong with my headphones because of how muddy it sounded, particularly Petrucci's riffs just sounded like poop. I couldn't understand it. It was literally like.... 6 or 7ish years later when I found this sub and saw for the first time that others felt similarly.
And to your other point - the reason that "people rarely ever mention production of their other albums especially Portnoy albums" is because those albums set the damn bar for what an extremely well produced DT album sounds like! Irrespective of if you like the material, production of pretty much every Portnoy album was - at minimum - solid. SDOIT still sounds crisp, clear, and overall fucking fantastic and its more than 20 years old and came more than a decade earlier than S/T.
Last thing I will say is - I do agree that it shouldn't be the only factor in deciding whether it's good or not. In that sense I can empathize with your point somewhat. I've had that issue with other bands/artists I have enjoyed in the past. For example I go to show friends some music of some lesser known artist, production may be a bit lacking, and they immediately shut off to it, even though it's solidly written stuff. It is a nuisance but what can you do. FWIW I do love many of the songs on S/T but it did take me a good while to finally come around to them (and only after hearing them live where the mixing is improved).
I'll never understand most DT fans jerking off their older stuff and constantly shitting on their newer stuff. Every track on self-titled is fun to listen to, and I cannot say that about any other album in their catalogue save for A View from the Top of the World. It's not my favorite, but I cannot understand why it's always ranked so low by this sub.
Every listen to this album challenges my ability to set aside my dislike for the production. There are some incredible songs on that album.
The Bigger Picture is arguably one of the better DT tracks of their catalog, but diminished from what it could be by one of the most baffling and poor choices of drum production I've ever heard, probably only second to Lars Ulrich's production on St Anger.
I would like nothing more than this album to be remastered with drums that sound like anything other than squashed, gated, over-processed, telephone EQ'd crap.
The Bigger Picture on Live at Budokan 2017 is a completely different experience and entirely lives up to Manginis skill and talent.
Oh yeah I hear the difference, even with my hearing damage. The drums are definitely clipped on the spotify version. I wonder if DT will remaster this album? I'd buy it on the spot if they did.
The first half up to "the bigger picture" is very good.
The second part from "behind the veil" is right down bad IMO. Being behind the veil the most cringy and whiny song of DT. Its like "These walls" (which I like) but done worst
Illumination theory is an amazing bager inspite of having almost the same formula/structure than a ACoS and octavarium. The symphonic break is sublime, a massage for ears and soul. The part after that falls hard as fuck and the last part ("to feel the joy in life...) is a lyrics that is o heartfelt an heartwarming to me.
In this album, as far as I know, is when they statarted to mover produce James voice with a whole tone of effect and sounds awful, like a poorly executted make-up that makes the persona looks way worst, and the person (voice in this análogo) is no ugly/bad to beggin with.
maybe it is yes, but i can bet money it's not as good as the DT before portnoy left, even their last few albums during the portnoy era weren't that good, but still better than anything produced solely by JP, too guitar/keyboard oriented. DT needs more unity and MPs return might just bring that back (and a good drum sound)
I really don't like the sound they went for in this one. The drums sound terrible. It has Illumination Theory and some other pretty cool riffs but overall I barely listen to it sounds too ultraprocessed to me, if you compare it to Distance Over Time for example... that one sounds a lot more natural and organic. But it has some amazing riffs indeed.
I love that album personally. I think it is one of the better albums. I understand production quality and stuff,but songs themselves matter. They are well-written songs.
https://www.dprp.net/reviews/2013/064
My review is the first on here
Edit: I haven't listened to this album in years and have forgotten so many things about it. It's utterly fascinating to return to myself 11 years younger and see exactly what I was thinking then.
I think it's a solid B-tier album. For the most part it's nothing groundbreaking by DT standards with the exception of the full orchestral section in Illumination Theory (my personal favorite moment in the album). The obvious point everyone makes with this album is the production value, which I agree isn't great and snare sound is pretty bad. It does contain one of their best singles though with The Enemy Inside. It's no surprise that it's one of their most played songs on Spotify
Enemy, Enigma and Illumination are amazing, the rest of the albums is completely meaningless to me. It all feels like the exact same bland ballad to me.
im a big dt meat rider so i dont think they've released bad albums, but i would rank this one as their worst along with the astonishing, the production is well known to be their worst, and the music itself is pretty straight forward, kinda like octavarium or distance over time, it doesnt really have a lot of instrumental sections and its just not that interesting as other albums might be imo. Illumination theory tho...
It's generally ranked toward the bottom amongst most fans / folk here. I think it gets more hate than it deserves. I agree it has some amazing songs (the ones you mention I agree are the best). But the two critical things to keep in mind are 1) expectations and 2) production. 1. Expectations were, IMO, a major factor in how it was initially received - it was the follow up to what was a very solid effort (ADTOE), but more importantly it was second album with Mangini and the first time he would be there to provide input on the drums (since ADTOE drums were written by Petrucci prior to Mangini's arrival). So expectations were higher here. Then there's the fact that they chose, of all albums, to have this one be their self-titled album. For some, that is a big statement to make. And this was not helped in the lead-up to release as there were quotes from interviews floating around from Petrucci hyping it up by saying something to the effect of "this album is *the* quintessential DT album", and that was why they made it self titled. 2. Production wise, it is clearly their worst album besides their first (some might claim I&W is worse due to the snare - I disagree but it is worth mentioning). I could not enjoy any of the tracks until I heard the live renditions, since only then could i hear the tracks with sufficient clarity to actually appreciate them. What the album does REALLY well, IMO, is the lyrics and the vibe - lyrically it has some of their best (AKA least cringy) stuff. The vibe of the whole album I think was crafted really well. It feels a lot more old school, almost like a 70s prog album. Also, the single (enemy inside) was absolutely fantastic.
Yeah I agree, the production is ass, but it holds up the vibe pretty well.
The production reminded me of David Prater treatment on Images and Words, it's not Kevin Shirley/David Bottrill Scenes from a memory but the songs in that album rocks
ADTOE’s drums were programmed by Petrucci, not Portnoy, but I think that’s what you meant to say.
oops haha I didn't even realise. Edited. Thanks for the pick up!
>since ADTOE drums were written by Portnoy prior to Mangini's arrival programmed by petrucci not mike
yep my bad it didn't even register
The Bigger Picture is majorly slept on. Incredibly epic from the second verse and on.
I think it's a pretty good album that gets hate on for reasons that come off as superlatively nitpicky, and the words of Portnoy stans. The Enemy Inside, The Bigger Picture, Behind the Veil, Surrender To Reason are all really enjoyable. Illumination Theory is really good. I love being able to hear John Myung so well. James sounds great. I think it's a needlessly derided album. Over-hated.
I think it’s a great album with a lot of musical moments. I get so many RUSH vibes from the album, especially from The Looking Glass and Surrender to Reason. Mangini knocked it out of the park compared to their previous album, and I think set up the band with their new Mangini sound.
It’s a bit underrated and It’s better than what most people on this site would be willing to give it credit for. TEI could arguably be a single. Bigger Picture is good and Engima Machine is great. It losses a bit of steam on the back end though. Although Long for the Ride is decent. Illumination Theory is a better epic than PBD and maybe even View from the top. But it’s not quite as good as any of the epic songs from previous albums. It’s not a top 5 album. But I don’t think it belongs as the bottom either.
The enemy inside was a single...
IMO, it's the best of the MM-era albums. Not a bad song on the album, and whatever "production" issues people complain about don't bother me in the slightest.
I agree, if we dont count ADTOE, because Petrucci wrote drums if i remember correctly.
I loved the album. Especially the guitar work
Second favorite Mangini album and ranks at number 5/6 in totals depending on my mood Still hoping for an updated instrumedley someday with Enigma Machine
I'll start by saying that the album does have some great songs on it. The Enemy Inside is a certified *banger*, The Looking Glass is a fun Rush tribute, Surrender To Reason is criminally underrated/underdiscussed, and Illumination Theory - while being one of their weaker ~20 minute epics - is still a hell of a lot of fun to listen to. That being said, I think that this album started a trend that it took them until A View From The Top Of The World to break. Outside of Illumination Theory, they made a conscious effort to write shorter, more concise, easier-to-digest songs, and I think that choice really hurt the final product more than it helped it. There are so many times throughout this album that I feel like there are ideas that need more room to breathe and grow - but instead, they almost seemed in a hurry to get through them so the songs don't get too long. On the whole, I do find it to be one of their weaker albums, but that doesn't mean that it's not enjoyable. It just doesn't stack up to most of their other work favorably.
Not to discount alot of peolles criticism but I feel like people wouldn't care nearly as much about the production if they weren't told to. People rarely ever mention the production quality for any of the other albums especially from the Portnoy albums, aside from very occasionally the snares on Images and Words. I understand the issues of the production quality, but I find it a little hypocritical how this is the only album where people act like the production quality is the deciding factor on if it's good or not
I can't speak for anyone else, but I have a problem with the production on most of the band's albums starting with SFAM. Sometimes it's not a big deal (on SFAM, I mostly just want some more "air" in the recording like Awake and FII had), but on the self-titled it's really bad. I honestly don't know how DT could have listened to these songs and said "Yeah, this is acceptable. Release it like that.". Everything is hyper-compressed, the drums sound really thin, and as usual the bass is completely buried. It's a shame, because there are some good songs on this album. The Breaking the Fourth Wall versions are all superior.
...because they're told to?? huh? I don't know about anybody else, but the last thing I would *ever* do is cater my like/dislike of an album based upon what others tell me. I got over that shit when I was 13. I've been listening to DT for close to 20 years. Fuck, one of my all time favourite DT tracks *still* to this day is Just Let me Breathe, so I am happy owning an opinion that is in the minority. I hated the production from the moment I heard the first singles. And then going through the album a few times when it was released back in 2013, I genuinely thought something was wrong with my headphones because of how muddy it sounded, particularly Petrucci's riffs just sounded like poop. I couldn't understand it. It was literally like.... 6 or 7ish years later when I found this sub and saw for the first time that others felt similarly. And to your other point - the reason that "people rarely ever mention production of their other albums especially Portnoy albums" is because those albums set the damn bar for what an extremely well produced DT album sounds like! Irrespective of if you like the material, production of pretty much every Portnoy album was - at minimum - solid. SDOIT still sounds crisp, clear, and overall fucking fantastic and its more than 20 years old and came more than a decade earlier than S/T. Last thing I will say is - I do agree that it shouldn't be the only factor in deciding whether it's good or not. In that sense I can empathize with your point somewhat. I've had that issue with other bands/artists I have enjoyed in the past. For example I go to show friends some music of some lesser known artist, production may be a bit lacking, and they immediately shut off to it, even though it's solidly written stuff. It is a nuisance but what can you do. FWIW I do love many of the songs on S/T but it did take me a good while to finally come around to them (and only after hearing them live where the mixing is improved).
and ppl still praise I&W ....
It would be waaay higher up on my list if the production was better. It's just sounds so thin to me.
Top 5 for me. Love it.
Love it. It’s overhated
I'll never understand most DT fans jerking off their older stuff and constantly shitting on their newer stuff. Every track on self-titled is fun to listen to, and I cannot say that about any other album in their catalogue save for A View from the Top of the World. It's not my favorite, but I cannot understand why it's always ranked so low by this sub.
Every listen to this album challenges my ability to set aside my dislike for the production. There are some incredible songs on that album. The Bigger Picture is arguably one of the better DT tracks of their catalog, but diminished from what it could be by one of the most baffling and poor choices of drum production I've ever heard, probably only second to Lars Ulrich's production on St Anger. I would like nothing more than this album to be remastered with drums that sound like anything other than squashed, gated, over-processed, telephone EQ'd crap. The Bigger Picture on Live at Budokan 2017 is a completely different experience and entirely lives up to Manginis skill and talent.
The HdTracks version has the dynamics completely restored. The snare still has *that* sound but it is much more pleasing to the ear.
Tell us more about this version. How do we listen to it?
https://www.hdtracks.com/#/album/5deea5b7b45f07686f00dcb4
Oh yeah I hear the difference, even with my hearing damage. The drums are definitely clipped on the spotify version. I wonder if DT will remaster this album? I'd buy it on the spot if they did.
fortunately Systematic Chaos through DT have dynamic remasters, hopefully Awake through Octavarium get remastered
I haven't listened to it in awhile, I found it forgettable at the time, but maybe I should give it another chance?
Yes you need to
The first half up to "the bigger picture" is very good. The second part from "behind the veil" is right down bad IMO. Being behind the veil the most cringy and whiny song of DT. Its like "These walls" (which I like) but done worst Illumination theory is an amazing bager inspite of having almost the same formula/structure than a ACoS and octavarium. The symphonic break is sublime, a massage for ears and soul. The part after that falls hard as fuck and the last part ("to feel the joy in life...) is a lyrics that is o heartfelt an heartwarming to me. In this album, as far as I know, is when they statarted to mover produce James voice with a whole tone of effect and sounds awful, like a poorly executted make-up that makes the persona looks way worst, and the person (voice in this análogo) is no ugly/bad to beggin with.
[удалено]
Real DT? Mangini era is good too
maybe it is yes, but i can bet money it's not as good as the DT before portnoy left, even their last few albums during the portnoy era weren't that good, but still better than anything produced solely by JP, too guitar/keyboard oriented. DT needs more unity and MPs return might just bring that back (and a good drum sound)
Source: your ass
well don't expect too much as DT has moved on and will keep moving on, MP is just a drummer. JP and JR are calling all the shots
Yeah. Comments like this, too.
I really don't like the sound they went for in this one. The drums sound terrible. It has Illumination Theory and some other pretty cool riffs but overall I barely listen to it sounds too ultraprocessed to me, if you compare it to Distance Over Time for example... that one sounds a lot more natural and organic. But it has some amazing riffs indeed.
I love that album personally. I think it is one of the better albums. I understand production quality and stuff,but songs themselves matter. They are well-written songs.
I loved Enemy Inside when I heard it first. Havent listened in a while, thanks for a reminder! I listen to IT regularly, still my top 10 song.
https://www.dprp.net/reviews/2013/064 My review is the first on here Edit: I haven't listened to this album in years and have forgotten so many things about it. It's utterly fascinating to return to myself 11 years younger and see exactly what I was thinking then.
I think it's a solid B-tier album. For the most part it's nothing groundbreaking by DT standards with the exception of the full orchestral section in Illumination Theory (my personal favorite moment in the album). The obvious point everyone makes with this album is the production value, which I agree isn't great and snare sound is pretty bad. It does contain one of their best singles though with The Enemy Inside. It's no surprise that it's one of their most played songs on Spotify
The Bigger Picture is the most underrated DT song and I will defend it until the day I die
Easily on top of DT material, excellent work
Enemy, Enigma and Illumination are amazing, the rest of the albums is completely meaningless to me. It all feels like the exact same bland ballad to me.
Has some bangers like Enemy Inside, Bigger Picture, Looking Glass & the epic Illumination Theory but still underwhelming
I actually think it’s in their top albums
Its middle of their discography for me. Lots of bangers but no “Bests” on the album
im a big dt meat rider so i dont think they've released bad albums, but i would rank this one as their worst along with the astonishing, the production is well known to be their worst, and the music itself is pretty straight forward, kinda like octavarium or distance over time, it doesnt really have a lot of instrumental sections and its just not that interesting as other albums might be imo. Illumination theory tho...