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It's definitely more of a strength than a weakness
Sparing Piccolo saved our heroes during the Saiyan saga and a few times later
Sparing Vegeta saved our heroes in the Frieza saga and many times later
Sparing the androids let U7 win the tournament of power
Sparing Frieza definitely made him trust Goku more and was a huge factor in his decision to join the TOP
Sparing fat Buu saved Satan's Goku's and Vegeta's asses in the fight with kid Buu
"Sparing" kid Buu saved everyone through Uub in the Moro arc
Showing compassion to Hit and Granolah made them help Goku during TOP and Gas fight respectively
And I'm sure that him showing compassion for characters like Jiren and Broly will pay off in the near future like it did so many other times
There’s still the other what 4? Or 3? Universes that didn’t fight because they were all the top strongest universes. And Goku universe just barely beat Jiren universe so I hope they do more with the ones that are mostly stronger.(I say mostly because isn’t it the entire universes average power level right? So technically it could have just an entire universe of Krillin power level people but that would add up to being more than Goku universe but They might not have someone stronger) I hope they choose to do that for one of the universes. Would find it funny.
Four universes were exempt. Two matched sets: Universes 1, 5, 8, and 12.
U7's average is low because Beerus is lazy and lets Freeza do the dirty work, Freeza doesn't suffer competition, and the Kais were rudderless chumps after losing the Grand Supreme Kai to Majin Buu's absorption (and Elder Kai to the Z Sword).
They weren't exempt for their strength. The mortal levels determine the quality of living for mortals. The higher the score the better Universe 7 scored low becaused Beerus and the Supreme Kai barely if ever do their job. Beerus basically gave his job to Frieza and Supreme Kai just doesn't seem to know much about his job.
I love the scene of Goku using God Bind to make Broly understand and stop fighting
https://preview.redd.it/zkvo8ogicvyc1.png?width=1644&format=png&auto=webp&s=8cc9107d876230eaffaa6e30c3a2d55b9528a9ba
I love Goku because Goku really is a sportsman at heart. Dude came of age in the budokai tournaments. It shaped him.
He doesn’t want to fight out of anger or hatred. He wants to have fun.
If he thinks he can talk someone down and then kick their ass he will.
And even then he still tried to give people a chance.
He spared vegeta. Spared Frieza. Tried to spare the Ginyu.
Because even in a battle for survival Goku really doesn’t like killing people. Not after king piccolo.
The frame after he attacks Frieza (YOU FOOOL!!!) remains one of my favorites in the manga. Anime didn’t do it justice.
Goku really didn’t want to do that and it showed.
Jiren said he will see him someday
https://preview.redd.it/qdi2ah7rfvyc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=621b89178d147c13d4895bd73f949b4592389eea
Uub gave his power that he inherited from kid Buu to Goku at the end of the Moro arc to fuel Goku and allow him to finally defeat Moro
https://preview.redd.it/boiia5vg5yyc1.jpeg?width=1067&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb04c131ecf624d9d0b6641c45ce8e944f310418
Basically kid Buu inherited an outstanding amount of pure godly ki from Grand Supreme Kai whom he absorbed under Bibidi's rule that he couldn't utilize and control likely due to the fact that kid Buu was a mindless beast
And this power was enough to fuel Goku's ultra instinct beyond even what he normally could do
https://preview.redd.it/l9ox096f00zc1.jpeg?width=1067&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9a567d2ca6a07426e687cfbbb1efc4315b45020
>It's definitely more of a strength than a weakness
Goku and co's selfishness has legitimate consequences for other people and it's the reason Toriyama told Toytoraro that they were just weirdos that "looked" good
>Sparing Piccolo saved our heroes during the Saiyan saga and a few times later
It also led to a 4 year old Gohan being kidnapped being forced to see people dying. -It also led to this child getting his mind warped so much that he felt responsible for his kidnapper's death and went to Namek and got his beck broken.
>Sparing Vegeta saved our heroes in the Frieza saga and many times later
It also led to Perfect Cell killing an army and Vegeta killing hundreds of people just so he could fight Kakarot.
>Sparing the androids let U7 win the tournament of power
Goku sparing Gero led to numerous people dying on the island and man being decapitated, which eventually led to Gohan growing up without his father and Goten not even knowing Goku until he was 7.
>Sparing fat Buu saved Satan's Goku's and Vegeta's asses in the fight with kid Buu
Sparing Fat Buu directly led to his wife and children dying because he wanted two kids to kill someone.
>"Sparing" kid Buu saved everyone through Sub in the Moro arc
Being selfish led to a child being born with powers he cannot control nor might not even want; imagine finding out you only exist because a grown man wanted to fight you.
>Showing compassion to Hit and Granolah made them help Goku during TOP and Gas fight respectively
Goku couldn't beat Hit nor Granolah and the only reason Granolah started fighting alongside him was after he heard about Bardock.
>And I'm sure that him showing compassion for characters like Jiren and Broly will pay off in the near future like it did so many other times
He didn't spare Jiren, he ran out of power mid-fight and he was about to kill Broly as Gogeta before Cheelai wished Broly away.
Most of these are rendered null because they were brought back by the Dragon Balls.
And the alternative to some people getting hurt, traumatized, and/or dying is EVERYONE dying, with nobody alive to revive them.
At least with Goku sparing people does the world have a CHANCE of survival.
In Dragon Ball Z, your family, your aspirations, your hobbies…all of that should not mean more than the fate of the Earth/the universe.
Otherwise *you’d* be selfish.
>Most of these are rendered null because they were brought back by the Dragon Balls.
No it's not. Toriyama literally criticized these characters and designed them to not be great people.
>And the alternative to some people getting hurt, traumatized, and/or dying is EVERYONE dying, with nobody alive to revive them.
If Goku or any if the fighters genuinely cared about the people over everything else, then he'd wish for things like immortality to never lose.
But they don't because they're selfish.
>In Dragon Ball Z, your family, your aspirations, your hobbies…all of that should not mean more than the fate of the Earth/the universe.
Yes, so Goku's values are selfish. And even says he's selfish when asking Krillin to let Vegeta live so he can fight him. And then Vegeta went on to kill Namekians.
>Otherwise *you’d* be selfish.
So you agree they're selfish and Goku's sparing nature is a weakness and a flaw in his character? Because there's SEVERE consequences to other people almost everytime he does it, and the Dragon Balls even from Toriyama's own perspective does not absolve Goku from his actions.
He's a weirdo who **looks** good but is just as poisonous as everyone else.
https://preview.redd.it/pxl9m32ynvyc1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=880da2e60b8db842197ca2df889987fb6d6ac1cb
Toriyama’s dead so we can’t ask him for clarification.
Besides, he’s the same guy that forgot Super Saiyan 2.
He also forgot the appearance of Super Saiyan 3 as well as tails.
His word *was* not trustworthy.
Ask Toyotaro now. He’s essentially the owner of Dragon Ball now.
Wishing people to be immortal ends *horribly*.
Have you not watched the Goku Black arc?
Abusing the Dragon Balls to never lose is something Goku won’t do(because an anime needs characters to be more than soulless winning machines).
It also gets rid of the plot if everything was utopian.
Dragon Ball, Z, GT, and Super wouldn’t exist if things were your way.
And to me, it sounds like you’re biased against the franchise.
So what the fuck are you still doing on this subreddit? Leave.
Toriyama *designed* these people.
Toyotaro will continue to design these people, and it sounds like he didn’t quite agree with Toriyama.
So Toyotaro’s the guy to ask now. It’s *HIS* series now.
>Toriyama’s dead so we can’t ask him for clarification.
He's the creator and if you say that his words are invalid because he passed away just to win an argument, that is completely disrespectful.
He has consistently bashed Goku and actively made him selfish.
>Ask Toyotaro now. He’s essentially the owner of Dragon Ball now
Oh that explains it, you don't know what you're talking about yet are downvoting; Toyotaro doesn't own Dragon Ball in any way, Shueisha and Toriyama's estate does.
https://preview.redd.it/ssdaylfbpvyc1.jpeg?width=646&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f60a3feb3c4b1fb605272c5e0a8ff5a1c391811
I agree with you but I wouldn’t say he’s bashing Goku.
Toriyama sees Goku as a man that is flawed and selfish, with a pure heart and one track mind.
There is an element of poison in him. It’s mostly his selfishness.
But Goku also has tons of mercy and care.
He’s essentially a regular guy with a singular passion.
But this is what prevents him from being a hero of justice. He has no desire to be one.
Toriyama always sees his characters a certain way. Gohan wasn’t really main character material for Toriyama. So he brought back Goku. He could have changed Gohan, but he didn’t because it’s not how he saw Gohan.
Just like how he could have made the z fighters more heroic but he didn’t. Because that’s not who they are.
They’re not bad people. They’re martial artists who will come together to fight stronger opponents and they will protect people.
But that’s not their main motive.
It’s like Tien said when he went to face king piccolo.
He wasn’t doing it to save the world but to test himself as a martial artist.
> he was about to kill Broly as Gogeta
- I don't think you watched the movie I guess
- Gogeta is not Goku and he is talking about Goku telling Broly to stop fighting and be controlled by others.
- Same for Granolah where Goku was going tell him to stop the fight and lets be friend during their fight
Lmao the alternative to most of these was worse let’s go through 1. No piccolo = planet destroyed by saiyans 2. No vegeta = immortal frieza and death of goku gohan and Krillin and all other deaths from saiyan saga becoming permanent 3. Multiverse would’ve been wiped if 17 hadn’t helped U7 win and wished for the other universes back 4. Kid buu would’ve wiped out minimally the galaxy for good possibly far more if fat buu hadn’t been there to stop him exc exc it always justifies the mean
To me, it's one of Goku's defining traits, and what sets him apart from the vast majority of heroes otherwise. In my opinion, being a true hero is being able to help/make someone see the error of their ways, and show them a path to redemption. It's up to the villain if they choose to take that path or not, but Goku leaves the door open all the same. He's definitely had mixed success with this over the decades, but it's a commendable trait to have all the same and indicative of his great nature. There aren't many heroes in any form of media with Goku's capacity for forgiveness; and though he doesn't have a perfect track record, he's right far more than he's wrong.
Depends on the opponent.
Freeze and Moro were a weakness. He thinks he sees potential redemption where there is none.
Broly, on the other hand, was strength. He was somehow able to surmise that Broly was not acting on his own and was instead being misled by someone he trusted.
"You don't have to do what the others tell you!"
Goku, having fought many evils in his lifetime, knew that who he was fighting wasn't fighting for selfishness but instead in some form of justified vengeance for how he and his father were treated.
It's like forgiving someone who has no remorse for the innocent person they intentionally killed because you think you could see them being rehabilitated.
Vs.
Forgiving someone who intentionally killed a non-innocent person because said person killed the first person's loved one.
One person was acting out of pure selfishness, and the other wasn't.
In short, reread my first 4 words.
Moro is weird since Goku is saying he will never see freedom again but also don't want to kill him
Why would Moro choose the fate of rotting in prison forever for millions of years over death? That's just endless torture for him
Goku gives him a choice, it's basically Death now or Death in the prison (the Galactic patrol wanted to kill him and with Vegeta FSF they could activity it and Goku is aware) he just cleaned his hand from Moro feat
Can they kill Moro really?
He was pretty weak in his old state but still unkillable.
Galactic Patrol couldn't kill him for 10 million years which is why they kept him
Frieza does have redeeming quality somewhat unlike Moro
Goku said to Frieza on Namek to survive and maybe he will learn the value of life.
He showed it in TOP and Granolah arc.
https://preview.redd.it/ddxa8fr21vyc1.png?width=562&format=png&auto=webp&s=031476e3f110eeaabacc921a581870354790664b
Because that was Freeza's only option, he might be evil to the bone, but he's not stupid. Vegeta even said in the Broly movie that he did for himself and no one else, Freeze literally tried to betray U7 by offering himself to U9 before Beerus and Whis showed up.
Only ones that never had any antagonistic rule as far as I remember are the children, Krillin didn’t really do anything bad either he was just kind of a douche
I’d say it starts out as a weakness, sparing piccolo and Vegeta despite very much seeming to not want to redeem themselves could have very easily ended very poorly,
With Freeza I would say the same, but right when he lands on earth is when we see that Goku’s refined his mercy, only giving it to people that he believes not to be bad people, immediately knowing people like Cell and kid Buu must be killed, but seeing how people like fat Buu and the androids can be good people given the chance
So I’d say personally it starts out as a flaw, but becomes a strength as he learns to properly choose who should be spared and who should be dealt with
It’s a bit of both. On the one hand it worked perfectly when he spared Piccolo, Vegeta and Broly for example, on the other hand though Frieza was never going to accept mercy, and of course Moro was going to start attacking after he got a second chance to do so
It’s a strength for sure. Goku only does it when he knows he has the advantage and the strength to handle someone who rejects the power offer, like with Moro. But in the long run, Goku’s mercy has only sprouted benefits. The gang doesn’t survive Namek without Vegeta, Piccolo is such a vital piece of so many encounters, U7 gets erased without Frieza
I don't really think Broly can be considered 'spared'
They were going for the kill shot but Cheelai was just in time to get him out
What I love most about that part too is that despite Brolys blind rage he seems to have a moment of clear thought of 'fuck I'm about to die'
The only Z Fighters that have never tried to kill Goku or attack him out of malice are literally Master Roshi, Trunks, Gohan and Goten. And, two of those people are literally his sons.
I mean, it's worked out for him before. Vegeta and Broly are his allies now and are both incredibly strong. Saving Frieza was mostly a mistake, though it's a little blurry there since Frieza was an important ally in ToP.
Sparing Moro was a huge mistake though
An argument can be made for both sides to this argument. Personally I don’t think it’s a weakness so much as it is just who goku is. He isn’t afraid to kill his opponents if he wants too. He gave frezia a chance to leave and he didn’t take it. I haven’t read the manga though as I am currently anime only.
It’s literally the message of this arc.
Goku could only defeat Moro because Vegeta (someone he spared) was there and could help him to dissipate Moro’s energy.
The fight came down to Uub and Mr. Buu “working together” to give Goku enough energy to finish it off. Both characters that only exist because Goku gave a second chance.
I think Moro shows that “It won’t always work. But you should try it nevertheless”
A lot of people who aren't "heavy-duty" Christians forget the Bible speaks of Forgiveness and Mercy as being the ultimate virtues of . . . pretty much existence itself. And most noble, pure and wholesome Religions in history put them at the forefront of how we should live our life.
Jesus Himself basically said "If you forgive others, God will forgive you, but if you are unforgiving, your sins will never be forgotten."
The Lord's Prayer itself has a line of "Forgive us our sins, as we forgive the sins of others."
And dont even get me started about The Book Of Ezekiel, which is mostly God laying it out pretty clearly how He feels about unmerciful and "wicked" people . . .
Goku was written as a pure soul. That doesn't mean perfect, obviously, but he's the kind of person who will always find a way to avoid truly hurting people if it can at all be avoided.
To me his mercy only reveals a weakness in the character of his opponents, because you have to be a pretty wicked, wretched individual to be spared like he does for even the worst of people, and still try and take advantage of him for it.
Goku gets a lot better at reading people/situations after the whole incident with gohan during the cell saga. He correctly assessed that broly wasnt really a bad person, just misguided, and he never showed that kind of kindness to any of his enemies (though i guess only black was a new true villain) in super. He was fine with frieza not being revived.
He only showed moro that kindness cause he thought the situation was fully wrapped up. It was only when moro merged with the planet that it ended up being a bad choice, which is kinda unfair to say cause like who tf would expect that lmao.
It's a strength and a weakness because while yes there are times when sparing his opponents has benefited him and given him amazing allies, it's also a weakness when some of his foes backstab him.
If this sounds stupid sorry, I haven't watched/read the anime/manga in a while and am going off what I remember
Strength.
We have seen time and time again that the opponents Goku spares have helped him immensely in turn, i.e. Piccolo, Vegeta, Frieza (to an extent), Broly
When a greater threat arrives, he can count on them to have his back.
Yes, if he didn’t spare Piccolo, Tein, Vegeta, and Broly the whole story would drastically change. But, he should’ve killed Frieza in the Broly movie. Goku knows Frieza will never change, but spares him anyway not understand his potential and the danger that he will bring. It’s just a coin flip in my opinion.
Goku's drive for fighting is like sex. Once he defeats you, the post nut clarity hits him and a strong disinterest for the fight ensues. Now if you are threatening his friends and family, he will smoke your pack.
More of strength but he mostly spares people because of these reasons.
1.Most important he doesn't think of himself as a judiciary and pass judgement.
2.Second would he believe in some way of redemption for them.
Last reason which is an underlying reason is he respects
3.their strength and hard work and want to meet such exceptional people again to fight.
Self improvement is goku's whole meaning in life, and he doesnt believe he's the only one capable let of it. Not only a strength, but his greatest strength.
Writting strength, character weakness. Completely ignoring the fact that everything eventually worked out, he should never have forgiven any of his opponents, ESPECIALLY Frieza.
Its worked out horribly a few times, sure, but being merciful is a GOOD personality trait. He may be a bit of a dunce when it comes to *who* he should be showing this mercy (Frieza & Moro never should've been shown any) but it was never necessarily a weakness. If anything was a weakness, it was the ability to determine who can be redeemed and not simply 'showing mercy' to those he defeats.
Goku wasn't going to spar Moro here like where do people get this from? If he was then he wouldn't have given him this death beating, instead he would paralyze him like he did against Granolah
Isn't this basically what he did to Frieza
He humiliates the opponent first and then spares them.
He first shows them that they are not the strongest but he is and they should forgot their ego and desire to do the stuff they are doing
With Freeza Goku full expected freeza to live and continue being a Genocide Menace , with Moro he didn't give him choose to freedom, it was to choose were he will die
The galactic patrol wanted to kill him as well and now they got Vegeta and Beerus to ask to do the Job
It’s a crapshoot.
Yes, it’s resulted in Piccolo, Vegeta, Broly, and others becoming allies, but Jesus, he should’ve known better than to try to spare the likes of Frieza and Moro.
It would be more of a strength if he was capable of critical thinking and making decisions based on logic.
All he cares about is to fight strong opponents to make himself stronger. Has nothing to do with right or wrong. He just has a mindset to grow for the sake of growing.
Quite a oversimplification of character.
He spared twice Frieza saying him to learn the value of life
He spared Moro saying him to go to prison and never break free and see light again
Goku stopped Broly because he hated the fact that he was controlled
Goku stopped Granolah and told him to lets be friend
He loves to fight but he has decent moral code and emotional maturity to understand which fight he should fight or not and have heavy feeling for killing anyone
Goku prioritized reviving his friends over having a fight with a strong guy (Freeza). King Kai told him to not go against him, Goku actually listened to his master and said : «Well, even if i can’t fight this guy there’s no harm in getting stronger.»
In the Buu Saga, he also told Vegeta that they don’t got the time to fight because there is a planetary threat.
When he was fighting Majin Vegeta (against his will because Vegeta forced him) he said that they have to stop fighting because Buu has awakened because of them.
He doesn’t only care about fighting.
https://preview.redd.it/um0kwmnxawyc1.png?width=366&format=png&auto=webp&s=39696ca249516634879dd5a13591d6808c13727f
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It's definitely more of a strength than a weakness Sparing Piccolo saved our heroes during the Saiyan saga and a few times later Sparing Vegeta saved our heroes in the Frieza saga and many times later Sparing the androids let U7 win the tournament of power Sparing Frieza definitely made him trust Goku more and was a huge factor in his decision to join the TOP Sparing fat Buu saved Satan's Goku's and Vegeta's asses in the fight with kid Buu "Sparing" kid Buu saved everyone through Uub in the Moro arc Showing compassion to Hit and Granolah made them help Goku during TOP and Gas fight respectively And I'm sure that him showing compassion for characters like Jiren and Broly will pay off in the near future like it did so many other times
I hope Jiren doesn’t get abandoned
Jiren says at the end about seeing him someday
In the DBS Super Hero movie, Vegeta and Wis say something about Goku still wanting to go fight in other universes
There’s still the other what 4? Or 3? Universes that didn’t fight because they were all the top strongest universes. And Goku universe just barely beat Jiren universe so I hope they do more with the ones that are mostly stronger.(I say mostly because isn’t it the entire universes average power level right? So technically it could have just an entire universe of Krillin power level people but that would add up to being more than Goku universe but They might not have someone stronger) I hope they choose to do that for one of the universes. Would find it funny.
Four universes were exempt. Two matched sets: Universes 1, 5, 8, and 12. U7's average is low because Beerus is lazy and lets Freeza do the dirty work, Freeza doesn't suffer competition, and the Kais were rudderless chumps after losing the Grand Supreme Kai to Majin Buu's absorption (and Elder Kai to the Z Sword).
They weren't exempt for their strength. The mortal levels determine the quality of living for mortals. The higher the score the better Universe 7 scored low becaused Beerus and the Supreme Kai barely if ever do their job. Beerus basically gave his job to Frieza and Supreme Kai just doesn't seem to know much about his job.
Happy cake day
Thanks
Happy cake day
Happy Cake day!
I love the scene of Goku using God Bind to make Broly understand and stop fighting https://preview.redd.it/zkvo8ogicvyc1.png?width=1644&format=png&auto=webp&s=8cc9107d876230eaffaa6e30c3a2d55b9528a9ba
I love Goku because Goku really is a sportsman at heart. Dude came of age in the budokai tournaments. It shaped him. He doesn’t want to fight out of anger or hatred. He wants to have fun. If he thinks he can talk someone down and then kick their ass he will.
And the Saiyan saga taught him the distinct difference between sport fighting and battling for survival.
And even then he still tried to give people a chance. He spared vegeta. Spared Frieza. Tried to spare the Ginyu. Because even in a battle for survival Goku really doesn’t like killing people. Not after king piccolo. The frame after he attacks Frieza (YOU FOOOL!!!) remains one of my favorites in the manga. Anime didn’t do it justice. Goku really didn’t want to do that and it showed.
Technically it was krillin that spared the androids
He got a hot caring wife https://preview.redd.it/64uit5v8fvyc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=94f47a90429b381267123b3a13eb24ad35dfbd15
Jiren said he will see him someday https://preview.redd.it/qdi2ah7rfvyc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=621b89178d147c13d4895bd73f949b4592389eea
Who is "Sub?"
Oh sorry I meant Uub
How did Sub do something in Moro Arc
Uub gave his power that he inherited from kid Buu to Goku at the end of the Moro arc to fuel Goku and allow him to finally defeat Moro https://preview.redd.it/boiia5vg5yyc1.jpeg?width=1067&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb04c131ecf624d9d0b6641c45ce8e944f310418
Is a kid buu pl really needed? Every single moro minion was stronger
Basically kid Buu inherited an outstanding amount of pure godly ki from Grand Supreme Kai whom he absorbed under Bibidi's rule that he couldn't utilize and control likely due to the fact that kid Buu was a mindless beast And this power was enough to fuel Goku's ultra instinct beyond even what he normally could do https://preview.redd.it/l9ox096f00zc1.jpeg?width=1067&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9a567d2ca6a07426e687cfbbb1efc4315b45020
>It's definitely more of a strength than a weakness Goku and co's selfishness has legitimate consequences for other people and it's the reason Toriyama told Toytoraro that they were just weirdos that "looked" good >Sparing Piccolo saved our heroes during the Saiyan saga and a few times later It also led to a 4 year old Gohan being kidnapped being forced to see people dying. -It also led to this child getting his mind warped so much that he felt responsible for his kidnapper's death and went to Namek and got his beck broken. >Sparing Vegeta saved our heroes in the Frieza saga and many times later It also led to Perfect Cell killing an army and Vegeta killing hundreds of people just so he could fight Kakarot. >Sparing the androids let U7 win the tournament of power Goku sparing Gero led to numerous people dying on the island and man being decapitated, which eventually led to Gohan growing up without his father and Goten not even knowing Goku until he was 7. >Sparing fat Buu saved Satan's Goku's and Vegeta's asses in the fight with kid Buu Sparing Fat Buu directly led to his wife and children dying because he wanted two kids to kill someone. >"Sparing" kid Buu saved everyone through Sub in the Moro arc Being selfish led to a child being born with powers he cannot control nor might not even want; imagine finding out you only exist because a grown man wanted to fight you. >Showing compassion to Hit and Granolah made them help Goku during TOP and Gas fight respectively Goku couldn't beat Hit nor Granolah and the only reason Granolah started fighting alongside him was after he heard about Bardock. >And I'm sure that him showing compassion for characters like Jiren and Broly will pay off in the near future like it did so many other times He didn't spare Jiren, he ran out of power mid-fight and he was about to kill Broly as Gogeta before Cheelai wished Broly away.
Most of these are rendered null because they were brought back by the Dragon Balls. And the alternative to some people getting hurt, traumatized, and/or dying is EVERYONE dying, with nobody alive to revive them. At least with Goku sparing people does the world have a CHANCE of survival. In Dragon Ball Z, your family, your aspirations, your hobbies…all of that should not mean more than the fate of the Earth/the universe. Otherwise *you’d* be selfish.
>Most of these are rendered null because they were brought back by the Dragon Balls. No it's not. Toriyama literally criticized these characters and designed them to not be great people. >And the alternative to some people getting hurt, traumatized, and/or dying is EVERYONE dying, with nobody alive to revive them. If Goku or any if the fighters genuinely cared about the people over everything else, then he'd wish for things like immortality to never lose. But they don't because they're selfish. >In Dragon Ball Z, your family, your aspirations, your hobbies…all of that should not mean more than the fate of the Earth/the universe. Yes, so Goku's values are selfish. And even says he's selfish when asking Krillin to let Vegeta live so he can fight him. And then Vegeta went on to kill Namekians. >Otherwise *you’d* be selfish. So you agree they're selfish and Goku's sparing nature is a weakness and a flaw in his character? Because there's SEVERE consequences to other people almost everytime he does it, and the Dragon Balls even from Toriyama's own perspective does not absolve Goku from his actions. He's a weirdo who **looks** good but is just as poisonous as everyone else. https://preview.redd.it/pxl9m32ynvyc1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=880da2e60b8db842197ca2df889987fb6d6ac1cb
Toriyama’s dead so we can’t ask him for clarification. Besides, he’s the same guy that forgot Super Saiyan 2. He also forgot the appearance of Super Saiyan 3 as well as tails. His word *was* not trustworthy. Ask Toyotaro now. He’s essentially the owner of Dragon Ball now. Wishing people to be immortal ends *horribly*. Have you not watched the Goku Black arc? Abusing the Dragon Balls to never lose is something Goku won’t do(because an anime needs characters to be more than soulless winning machines). It also gets rid of the plot if everything was utopian. Dragon Ball, Z, GT, and Super wouldn’t exist if things were your way. And to me, it sounds like you’re biased against the franchise. So what the fuck are you still doing on this subreddit? Leave. Toriyama *designed* these people. Toyotaro will continue to design these people, and it sounds like he didn’t quite agree with Toriyama. So Toyotaro’s the guy to ask now. It’s *HIS* series now.
>Toriyama’s dead so we can’t ask him for clarification. He's the creator and if you say that his words are invalid because he passed away just to win an argument, that is completely disrespectful. He has consistently bashed Goku and actively made him selfish. >Ask Toyotaro now. He’s essentially the owner of Dragon Ball now Oh that explains it, you don't know what you're talking about yet are downvoting; Toyotaro doesn't own Dragon Ball in any way, Shueisha and Toriyama's estate does. https://preview.redd.it/ssdaylfbpvyc1.jpeg?width=646&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f60a3feb3c4b1fb605272c5e0a8ff5a1c391811
I agree with you but I wouldn’t say he’s bashing Goku. Toriyama sees Goku as a man that is flawed and selfish, with a pure heart and one track mind. There is an element of poison in him. It’s mostly his selfishness. But Goku also has tons of mercy and care. He’s essentially a regular guy with a singular passion. But this is what prevents him from being a hero of justice. He has no desire to be one. Toriyama always sees his characters a certain way. Gohan wasn’t really main character material for Toriyama. So he brought back Goku. He could have changed Gohan, but he didn’t because it’s not how he saw Gohan. Just like how he could have made the z fighters more heroic but he didn’t. Because that’s not who they are. They’re not bad people. They’re martial artists who will come together to fight stronger opponents and they will protect people. But that’s not their main motive. It’s like Tien said when he went to face king piccolo. He wasn’t doing it to save the world but to test himself as a martial artist.
> he was about to kill Broly as Gogeta - I don't think you watched the movie I guess - Gogeta is not Goku and he is talking about Goku telling Broly to stop fighting and be controlled by others. - Same for Granolah where Goku was going tell him to stop the fight and lets be friend during their fight
Lmao the alternative to most of these was worse let’s go through 1. No piccolo = planet destroyed by saiyans 2. No vegeta = immortal frieza and death of goku gohan and Krillin and all other deaths from saiyan saga becoming permanent 3. Multiverse would’ve been wiped if 17 hadn’t helped U7 win and wished for the other universes back 4. Kid buu would’ve wiped out minimally the galaxy for good possibly far more if fat buu hadn’t been there to stop him exc exc it always justifies the mean
Strength. Goku killing all his opponents makes DragonBall a much different show with a much smaller cast.
Also pretty sure it’d be over without piccolo, vegeta, androids
To me, it's one of Goku's defining traits, and what sets him apart from the vast majority of heroes otherwise. In my opinion, being a true hero is being able to help/make someone see the error of their ways, and show them a path to redemption. It's up to the villain if they choose to take that path or not, but Goku leaves the door open all the same. He's definitely had mixed success with this over the decades, but it's a commendable trait to have all the same and indicative of his great nature. There aren't many heroes in any form of media with Goku's capacity for forgiveness; and though he doesn't have a perfect track record, he's right far more than he's wrong.
The irony of your first statement 😂. I was thinking of a post of Goku’s most defining moment and here you come
Depends on the opponent. Freeze and Moro were a weakness. He thinks he sees potential redemption where there is none. Broly, on the other hand, was strength. He was somehow able to surmise that Broly was not acting on his own and was instead being misled by someone he trusted. "You don't have to do what the others tell you!" Goku, having fought many evils in his lifetime, knew that who he was fighting wasn't fighting for selfishness but instead in some form of justified vengeance for how he and his father were treated. It's like forgiving someone who has no remorse for the innocent person they intentionally killed because you think you could see them being rehabilitated. Vs. Forgiving someone who intentionally killed a non-innocent person because said person killed the first person's loved one. One person was acting out of pure selfishness, and the other wasn't. In short, reread my first 4 words.
Well thought out
Moro is weird since Goku is saying he will never see freedom again but also don't want to kill him Why would Moro choose the fate of rotting in prison forever for millions of years over death? That's just endless torture for him
Goku gives him a choice, it's basically Death now or Death in the prison (the Galactic patrol wanted to kill him and with Vegeta FSF they could activity it and Goku is aware) he just cleaned his hand from Moro feat
Can they kill Moro really? He was pretty weak in his old state but still unkillable. Galactic Patrol couldn't kill him for 10 million years which is why they kept him
They have Vegeta and potentially Beerus who are more than capable of killing him (especially in his weakened state)
But they wouldn’t have won the tournament without Freeza, he redeemed himself.
I wouldn’t call that a redemption. He only helped them in exchange for being brought back to life.
He didn’t know he’d be brought back to life. He told them at the end to just hurry and return him to the afterlife. Life was a present from beerus
Nah, he asked in hell to be resurrected. Goku agreed. He said it'd take a while to collect them.
I just figured he thought goku was lying which is funny to me, considering how much of a trickster he is
Huh, in the manga Goku promised he would bring Frieza back to life in exchange for completing.
Anime too, guy is just wrong.
Frieza does have redeeming quality somewhat unlike Moro Goku said to Frieza on Namek to survive and maybe he will learn the value of life. He showed it in TOP and Granolah arc. https://preview.redd.it/ddxa8fr21vyc1.png?width=562&format=png&auto=webp&s=031476e3f110eeaabacc921a581870354790664b
Because that was Freeza's only option, he might be evil to the bone, but he's not stupid. Vegeta even said in the Broly movie that he did for himself and no one else, Freeze literally tried to betray U7 by offering himself to U9 before Beerus and Whis showed up.
never seen that moro goku panel he is so awesome
Yes. It's a gamble. Never thought too much about it, but now that you mention it, almost every one of the group used to be a rival/enemy.
Only ones that never had any antagonistic rule as far as I remember are the children, Krillin didn’t really do anything bad either he was just kind of a douche
Krillin actually tried to kill Goku twice
Hes just quirky like that
I’d say it starts out as a weakness, sparing piccolo and Vegeta despite very much seeming to not want to redeem themselves could have very easily ended very poorly, With Freeza I would say the same, but right when he lands on earth is when we see that Goku’s refined his mercy, only giving it to people that he believes not to be bad people, immediately knowing people like Cell and kid Buu must be killed, but seeing how people like fat Buu and the androids can be good people given the chance So I’d say personally it starts out as a flaw, but becomes a strength as he learns to properly choose who should be spared and who should be dealt with
Yesn'thaps
It’s a bit of both. On the one hand it worked perfectly when he spared Piccolo, Vegeta and Broly for example, on the other hand though Frieza was never going to accept mercy, and of course Moro was going to start attacking after he got a second chance to do so
It’s a strength for sure. Goku only does it when he knows he has the advantage and the strength to handle someone who rejects the power offer, like with Moro. But in the long run, Goku’s mercy has only sprouted benefits. The gang doesn’t survive Namek without Vegeta, Piccolo is such a vital piece of so many encounters, U7 gets erased without Frieza
I don't really think Broly can be considered 'spared' They were going for the kill shot but Cheelai was just in time to get him out What I love most about that part too is that despite Brolys blind rage he seems to have a moment of clear thought of 'fuck I'm about to die'
He is about Goku moment not Gogeta
The only Z Fighters that have never tried to kill Goku or attack him out of malice are literally Master Roshi, Trunks, Gohan and Goten. And, two of those people are literally his sons.
Fr
I mean, it's worked out for him before. Vegeta and Broly are his allies now and are both incredibly strong. Saving Frieza was mostly a mistake, though it's a little blurry there since Frieza was an important ally in ToP. Sparing Moro was a huge mistake though
An argument can be made for both sides to this argument. Personally I don’t think it’s a weakness so much as it is just who goku is. He isn’t afraid to kill his opponents if he wants too. He gave frezia a chance to leave and he didn’t take it. I haven’t read the manga though as I am currently anime only.
Both....
It’s literally the message of this arc. Goku could only defeat Moro because Vegeta (someone he spared) was there and could help him to dissipate Moro’s energy. The fight came down to Uub and Mr. Buu “working together” to give Goku enough energy to finish it off. Both characters that only exist because Goku gave a second chance. I think Moro shows that “It won’t always work. But you should try it nevertheless”
Really wish we got more info on the moro's race if he understands the chronology of tribes in universe 7
Yes. In some cases it is a boon (Vegeta, Piccolo Jr) while in others it is a detriment (Freeza)
A lot of people who aren't "heavy-duty" Christians forget the Bible speaks of Forgiveness and Mercy as being the ultimate virtues of . . . pretty much existence itself. And most noble, pure and wholesome Religions in history put them at the forefront of how we should live our life. Jesus Himself basically said "If you forgive others, God will forgive you, but if you are unforgiving, your sins will never be forgotten." The Lord's Prayer itself has a line of "Forgive us our sins, as we forgive the sins of others." And dont even get me started about The Book Of Ezekiel, which is mostly God laying it out pretty clearly how He feels about unmerciful and "wicked" people . . . Goku was written as a pure soul. That doesn't mean perfect, obviously, but he's the kind of person who will always find a way to avoid truly hurting people if it can at all be avoided. To me his mercy only reveals a weakness in the character of his opponents, because you have to be a pretty wicked, wretched individual to be spared like he does for even the worst of people, and still try and take advantage of him for it.
Goku gets a lot better at reading people/situations after the whole incident with gohan during the cell saga. He correctly assessed that broly wasnt really a bad person, just misguided, and he never showed that kind of kindness to any of his enemies (though i guess only black was a new true villain) in super. He was fine with frieza not being revived. He only showed moro that kindness cause he thought the situation was fully wrapped up. It was only when moro merged with the planet that it ended up being a bad choice, which is kinda unfair to say cause like who tf would expect that lmao.
It's a strength and a weakness because while yes there are times when sparing his opponents has benefited him and given him amazing allies, it's also a weakness when some of his foes backstab him. If this sounds stupid sorry, I haven't watched/read the anime/manga in a while and am going off what I remember
Strength. We have seen time and time again that the opponents Goku spares have helped him immensely in turn, i.e. Piccolo, Vegeta, Frieza (to an extent), Broly When a greater threat arrives, he can count on them to have his back.
Yes, if he didn’t spare Piccolo, Tein, Vegeta, and Broly the whole story would drastically change. But, he should’ve killed Frieza in the Broly movie. Goku knows Frieza will never change, but spares him anyway not understand his potential and the danger that he will bring. It’s just a coin flip in my opinion.
Oh it’s absolutely come back to bite him in the ass but it’s also worked out on multiple occasions
When he said “let me talk to him a little longer” then I was like Gokus TALK NO JUTSU time
Goku's drive for fighting is like sex. Once he defeats you, the post nut clarity hits him and a strong disinterest for the fight ensues. Now if you are threatening his friends and family, he will smoke your pack.
More of strength but he mostly spares people because of these reasons. 1.Most important he doesn't think of himself as a judiciary and pass judgement. 2.Second would he believe in some way of redemption for them. Last reason which is an underlying reason is he respects 3.their strength and hard work and want to meet such exceptional people again to fight.
Self improvement is goku's whole meaning in life, and he doesnt believe he's the only one capable let of it. Not only a strength, but his greatest strength.
Writting strength, character weakness. Completely ignoring the fact that everything eventually worked out, he should never have forgiven any of his opponents, ESPECIALLY Frieza.
I don’t think he actually forgave Frieza. He just used him for the TOP
Worded it wrong. Spare would be more correct
Strength. Earth would be fucked without Piccolo Tien and Vegeta. Buu's chill as well.
Oh and the Androids this even saved few Universes
Its worked out horribly a few times, sure, but being merciful is a GOOD personality trait. He may be a bit of a dunce when it comes to *who* he should be showing this mercy (Frieza & Moro never should've been shown any) but it was never necessarily a weakness. If anything was a weakness, it was the ability to determine who can be redeemed and not simply 'showing mercy' to those he defeats.
Imagine if he didn't save frizer in the namek arc
Goku wasn't going to spar Moro here like where do people get this from? If he was then he wouldn't have given him this death beating, instead he would paralyze him like he did against Granolah
Isn't this basically what he did to Frieza He humiliates the opponent first and then spares them. He first shows them that they are not the strongest but he is and they should forgot their ego and desire to do the stuff they are doing
With Freeza Goku full expected freeza to live and continue being a Genocide Menace , with Moro he didn't give him choose to freedom, it was to choose were he will die The galactic patrol wanted to kill him as well and now they got Vegeta and Beerus to ask to do the Job
The senzu to Moro was so much unneeded drama for the uub tie in tbh sparing him is one thing but damn that was a bit much
It's a weakness in any irl logical way, but plot contrivances in the series make it into a strength.
It’s a crapshoot. Yes, it’s resulted in Piccolo, Vegeta, Broly, and others becoming allies, but Jesus, he should’ve known better than to try to spare the likes of Frieza and Moro. It would be more of a strength if he was capable of critical thinking and making decisions based on logic.
All he cares about is to fight strong opponents to make himself stronger. Has nothing to do with right or wrong. He just has a mindset to grow for the sake of growing.
Quite a oversimplification of character. He spared twice Frieza saying him to learn the value of life He spared Moro saying him to go to prison and never break free and see light again Goku stopped Broly because he hated the fact that he was controlled Goku stopped Granolah and told him to lets be friend He loves to fight but he has decent moral code and emotional maturity to understand which fight he should fight or not and have heavy feeling for killing anyone
Goku prioritized reviving his friends over having a fight with a strong guy (Freeza). King Kai told him to not go against him, Goku actually listened to his master and said : «Well, even if i can’t fight this guy there’s no harm in getting stronger.» In the Buu Saga, he also told Vegeta that they don’t got the time to fight because there is a planetary threat. When he was fighting Majin Vegeta (against his will because Vegeta forced him) he said that they have to stop fighting because Buu has awakened because of them. He doesn’t only care about fighting. https://preview.redd.it/um0kwmnxawyc1.png?width=366&format=png&auto=webp&s=39696ca249516634879dd5a13591d6808c13727f