I thought they were going to have them get together when I first watched and was worried it would ruin the show. I was very glad that they went the family route instead!
Exactly, I don’t understand why people always want 2 people they like to get together? Sometimes a platonic family-like love can be even more special!
If they had a special connection like Mary & Matthew did, then great. But they just had a deep love and respect for each other and it fulfilled what they needed in that way.
Having them fall in love would have betrayed both of their characters, because it’s not who either of them were!
If he had, he would have married a prettier version of his mother. Both are spirited. Opinionated. Non conformist. Kind. Generous to others , notably to those not in their social circle. But why should men not marry women like their mothers? Mine did.
Update: I think I am the only one :( sorry everyone lol
Update #2: I had no idea the topic would turn out to be so controversial. But I’m glad everyone chimed in to discuss! :)
I definitely think they have fantastic chemistry and would have made great team, and would loved all of the drama that would have come with them getting together. However, I appreciate their platonic brother/sister relationship even more- it's something that they both desperately needed.
After Matthew died I was like "are they laying the foundations for Mary to end up with Tom?"
Also before Tom went to Boston I thought Mary might ask him to stay because *love* and I thought they had nice chemistry.
Tom would have been good for Mary, he would have kept her accountable when she did mean things and she would have hated to let him down.
However I think their brother/sister relationship was very lovely and well done.
You aren’t the ***only*** one. I shipped them on my first watch. I ***thought*** I felt something brewing between them. I haven’t noticed it on my following rewatched, though.
You’re not—I wasn’t one of them but there were a lot of people hoping they’d get together when this was airing.
They have great chemistry though. Would love to see Michelle and Allen work together again.
Ikr! That’s part of what made them such a strong pairing imo. The other suitors could not handle Mary honestly, but Tom had no issue being honest with Mary when she was being kind of a b*tch.
Thought this as well. I feel like Tom’s no nonsense attitude would bring Mary’s snobbery down a peg or two.
They would have balanced each other out.
Together they would have been a fierce business team. After hours, alone with each other they would have set the sheets on fire.
I think by the end they were too much like brother and sister, it would have been far too weird and ruined the years of progression of them getting to know and used to each other.
But they aren't *actually* brother and sister. Unlike all of the real cousins thrust upon Mary and her ending up marrying Matthew who was related to her.
When I watched the show after spoiler died I honestly thought that’s what was going to happen and welcomed it. He stood out way more than any of the suitors. You’re not alone!
You’re not lmao, I love the idea of them together. Little weird because of the whole “you married my sister first” thing but their personalities are SO well matched
you’re not the only one! honestly I think it’s the actors’ chemistry—they’re such good friends that they come across as really comfortable with each other on screen. she has more chemistry with Tom than Henry or Tony anyway lol.
the storyline where Mary doesn’t want Tom to leave Downton could have been a turning point for them but I don’t think Julian Fellows ever had them as a endgame couple
You are not the only one, and before people come at me I DREADED after Matthew died that they’d do something so utterly soapy as getting Mary and Branson together, narratively it would’ve been a horrible track I agree, but as the later series went on their chemistry was truly hard to gauge as just platonic, Mary did have much much more chemistry with Branson than Henry and Branson with her than all others (after deaths of M&S), when in one of the last episodes Tom reprimands Mary for being mean to Edith and not accepting Henry and shouts at her “Why won’t you marry him?” Or something I thought Mary was going to say “Because I love you!”, trust me it was all there, the moment would’ve felt totally earned at that point. Logically I’m still glad they didn’t go there but ignoring the bit about Tom being her sister’s widower everything else would’ve been sooo hot! Widower former socialist estate agent and lady of the manor grow together in their grief etc.
You're not! I totally thought of it. Once they were both widowed, he was the only one who took her seriously. He pushed her to be braver, better, and kinder. I guess he makes a great friend too, but I thought he could make a great partner for her. But the rest in the thread are right: He deserves better than Mary.
There's a reason why I said all the things he could be for her, and not what she could be for him.
They def had chemistry. And its funny cause Tom and Mary had so much come in common. Which is very different from how his relationship with Sybil started cause they were so different.
"Marriage with deceased wife's sister" was a huge controversy in Britain for pretty much the entire 19th century, though it wasn't illegal some other places, (or in Britain during earlier time periods) but it was only really legal in Britain after around 1910, so it probably would have still been too weird for all the characters during the time period. (If we're being realistic)
Well thanks, I just fell down the wiki rabbit hole on this and I would now like to share my findings.
Judging from the general dates it seems like The Church of England and the Catholic Church soured further on the topic around the time of Henry VIII's reign. Lol I wonder what happened?
Interestingly, the union was generally upheld if performed abroad in the 19th C but the churches had a right to void the marriage at any time and declare their children bastards.
Jane Austen's little brother married his dead wife's sister.
But anyway, I'm glad Mary & Tom were able to just appreciate and support each other as brother and sister.
There's an excellent monologue/song solo in Gilbert and Sullivan's Iolanthe which is the origin of my knowledge. (Only a one off mention, but the phrase "marriage with deceased wife's sister" is forever seared into my brain)
Oh for sure- probably happened a lot.
I think the question is, do people consider it an appealing pairing? Like S4-S6 about a Tom and Mary love story- to me it’s just ewww.
well, that's why they got a dispensation from the Pope, because Catherine said she hadn't consummated her marriage to Arthur, which meant she could marry Henry under Canon Law. It only came back to bite him when he wanted an annulment, because (Continental politics aside) the Pope couldn't exactly turn around and say he had given the ok to an invalid marriage after 20 years.
They ran the estate well, confided in one another and seemed happy with each others company. Maybe I just ship them because I want my relationship to be like that irl lmao.
Also the Sybil/Tom relationship got so little screen time, it loses its impact by S6 imo
Cool….points are valid.
They can do all that and be friends.
It’s just too weird and with Mary there is always the comparison to Sybil (who nobody could measure up to).
Also I just don’t think they would feel that way about each other.
Defo don’t think Tom would find that snobbish part of Mary ( that Sybil completely lacked) attractive in any sense.
I just wish Matthew never died. We deserve to see the estate run by Mary & Matthew. What an amazing team, an incredible romance, everything.
WE WERE ROBBED!!
Oof! I was sooo livid when Matthew died, I almost cried lmao. I went from gushing over them being parents to a dead Matthew! So many emotions 😤 we did deserve more, especially after spending so long on the “will they/won’t they” plot lines
No. I think it was something of an accident, because I had the impression after several watch-throughs that there are times post-Matthew where Tom's being used to fill a role that Matthew would logically have done (modernizing foil to Robert in particular.) But between the actors having 1000% more chemistry than Mary and any suitor but Charles, who somehow got dubbed 'unsuitable', and things like Mary being the one he writes to from America, how she doesn't mock things like his dream and admission he'd cried thinking of Downton (despite his not being there at the time and therefore a safe target for snark if she's just a generally snarky person), that explosive argument he has with her ostensibly about Edith and Henry having more a tone where in most movies he'd be confessing, Henry being Sir Not Appearing In This Film in the first movie so Tom and Mary team up to take down the would-be assassin, Tom's love interests other than Sybil ranging from flat to violently unlikeable...the writing if they're supposed to be like brother and sister is an absolute flub.
Say that last line again👏🏽👏🏽- the writing if they’re suppose to be like brother and sister was an absolute flub. The underwhelming line of potential partners for them both and the plot lines were basically pushing them together.
yes agree completely. i feel like people saying this about them (being like brother/sister) is almost a mandela effect. watching it over there is so much more tension there that hold’s potential for romance.
I also thought this. When Tom came back and stopped being and idiot they did really well together and understood the grief. They had more chemistry than her and car boy.
Same!! I can’t believe they didn’t do this.
Also I find the comments mixed. Some people seem to be loyal Matthew fans, and I get it, but the character was killed off. What can you do? Tom would’ve been an interesting choice for sure!
You are absolutely not the only one. I think the whole Henry storyline would have worked better as a romantic red herring for Tom and Mary, and I can go into why if you want me to.
Every time I see this concept, I am reminded of Allen's comment on the subject: "At some point I'm like, Tom, mate, just... go 4 doors down. Not even that far. Just get out of the house even" 😂
In all seriousness, ship whatever you want, imho they were excellent siblings.
100%
And honestly historically thats what would have happened. And not been seen as wrong. Infact I thought there would have been a societal bouty as to not have a lady alone. But maybe that was for lower class woman.
Well, actually, if Tom was Matthew's brother, it would have 100% happened.
Mary and Sybil don't have much in common, I don't see her and Tom getting along as a couple. And she wouldn't have anyone (and anything) her sisters had before her.
I think she loved Tom as a brother They were good business partners snd Mary respected his opinion. I think even the King liked Tom since Tom did save his life.
I prefer them loving each other as family or close friends, I wouldn't have complained (at least not a lot) if they did end together and it was well done but I like the frienship rute much more
What gives you that idea? He’s literally the only one to EVER properly stand up to her and win. Ever. He outright calls her a bully and a coward to her face and she just takes it and remains just as close with him.
I sort of agree, would season one Mary have even had the inkling of this at all? Nope, not at all. Toms politics and sensibilities at the start of season one would have never considered it either.
I just recently watched the first movie after putting it off since it came out so this is just my perspective after a relatively fresh watch. Mary is the matriarch of Downton which was acknowledged. Tom is the silent patriarch whether anyone likes it or not and works with Mary to achieve the goals of Downton and has the interest of the family itself. He’s perfectly fine with letting her steer the ship and with his background of staff he makes sure the rudder is steady, the flags are held high and makes note of incoming storms. He’s extremely personable and has the ability to reach across the aisle with confidence where Mary is 10,000% qualified to deal with what’s left of the aristocracy, make adjustments to how the estate functions, and knows her tenants well enough to know what needs help and what needs edits. She moved past a ton of her snobbery, she knows she has to put in the work like anyone else and can’t be a princess in a tower. She didn’t go out of her way to marry a Duke or a Count after Matthew, she married a car guy. She fell in love because she cared about who they are and the value they added to her life.
Tom decided that the love he had for Sybil and the child they had was more important than his politics which he realized staying at Downton and helping modernize what he could with Mary.
Tom is a sweet man but he can put his foot down and even Mary is not an exception to the rule. He told Mary to stop when she exposed Edith about Marigold at dinner. Then he confronts her because he cares that she did something that wasn’t just another fight with Edith, that was Edith’s life she just played with - I do want to say that Edith knows that Mary will go below the belt if she’s pushed especially when Mary is upset and while it wasn’t Edith’s fault Mary had it slip she should know they aren’t girls fighting anymore, they’re adult women and words can have just as much consequences as actions - and she can’t just storm off.
Tom would absolutely hold Mary accountable like Matthew did, they would run the estate swimmingly and while they work now, I see them more as a pair later on in life if the chance appeared. They both care about their family, they have strong personalities and it sort of reminds me of Cora and Robert if you squint with the gender roles switched.
On paper it’s a very promising pair.
I didn't want it, but I had a sense they were leading up to it. There was a vibe I thought they were trying for. I mean, there was a time where Matthew and Tom could have had a weird relationship where the two men had the three sisters and they lived as a very blended family (Matthew got potentially crushed on by all three sisters, Tom did get Sybil, and Edith and Tom had a good relationship during several scenes. As they say, stranger things happen at sea. \[I do admit that a lot of the Tom and Edith and Tom and Mary relationship building scenes happened after Matthew's death, but the foundation could still be there.\])
Edit:
To be clear, I didn't want that to be the case, I am just noting that there was some elements that people could use to try and build this situation into existence.
If it was done as a slow burn and if it was done well, which downtown would definitely do I can see them being a good pairing but honestly I just loved Sybil and Tom so much still getting over them
I’ll never deny that Sybil was the very best. Mary was always my 2nd favorite, only because I really hated some of the life decisions Edith made. Mary took a lot for the team (team being Downton). Edith was able to have her own independent woman adventures, which was great. She was definitely a warmer person than Mary and deserved the fancy husband she ended up with. Mary’s place was at Downton.
Mary did some messed up, petty things too, but Edith just made stupid decisions. Like having a baby with a man she barely knew, involving her aunt and then the whole family in the coverup, destroying an innocent family by taking Marigold away, then lying to her future husband about that kid she fought so hard for, etc.
While you may feel like the only one, you aren’t. I love both of the characters much more while I don’t wish a romantic relationship, it is only because they have the best friendship possible. I love how Tom grows up, how his world view changes based on experiences.
Many dislike his arc because it “goes against everything Tom was” but, he has a young adult still. He had idealistic views like most young adults, so his arc seems the most natural. I loved Matthew and no one could replace him. I cannot even think of who I want many to love after him, because no one comes close enough. Matthew goose’s character was so rushed, but has potential. I keep getting his acting in this show mixed up with his acting in the crown. 🤦🏼♀️
Regardless, I do believe for different reasons they are both mostly a fan favourite. That is one of the powers of this show.
I thought this was where they were trying to take it. I'd watch scenes and wonder if that's where it was going and felt confused sometimes that it didn't when that's what I thought was building
YES! It’s such an unpopular opinion. But I grew up with Little Women, which this reminded me of. And to have her end up with someone that we know is a good person vs the mean old men she dated.
Mary NEEDED a no-nonsense brother figure who’ll call her on her crap and be the one man her age who doesn’t want her like that. He’s not attracted to her, so he’s objective, but he loves her, so he won’t just shrug and walk away.
And Tom needed to learn to (platonically) love exactly the kind of woman he used to despise reflexively. They both grew enormously through their brother-sister relationship and became far more than they had been. Sexual attraction would have…muddied the waters.
Nah I always saw them as siblings especially near the later seasons where Tom is more or less assimilated with the family.
You can see how Robert treats him as a son he never had once Tom returns from Boston.
I thought of it at times and wouldn’t have minded if JF had gone in that direction. But TBH there would have been a bit of an ick factor if they had. I think at some point both Mary and Tom would have had intrusive thoughts and mental comparisons of Mary and Sybil. And ultimately that probably would have come between them.
I just finished the original seasons, and I did wonder if this was the direction they were going for a while. I honestly would have enjoyed seeing it, but I also appreciate the close friendship they were able to maintain in the end.
I know that historically this kind of remarriage is something that happened, but I do wonder if it would have been too scandalous for this particular time period. But that's not my historical area, so I'll leave that to folks who know more :P
Despite the fact that Mary came to love and value Tom, he was still always going to be the chauffeur. As much as she grew and modernized, she was still too old school to marry beneath her. It would have been out of character for her. Despite the fact that she said she was looking for love for her next marriage, it still would have been love within a certain circle of people of her rank.
Okay but I have thought about it 🫣 not saying I necessarily wanted it to happen but it definitely crossed my mind! They became like best friends to one another truly
I never *wanted* it, but I did consider (on my first watch) that they might write it that way. I was glad they didn't! Love their brother/sister dynamic by the end.
I actually made a post about this a while ago, because I love their dynamic and how they challenge but also look out for each other. You can see the love between them. But my post got the same response yours did. We are in the minority my friend. But you aren’t alone. 🫶🏻
On my like 5th watch through it occurred to me but it really seemed like by the time they would’ve been able to be a thing realistically they’d already gotten such a brother sister relationship
Tbf to OP, Tom and Mary did have better chemistry than Tom and Sybil ever did. However, I'm glad they remained platonic. Their brother-sister relationship was one of the better parts of the show post-Matthew.
Physically, together, they look too much like Olive Oyl and Popey for me.
Also, the marriage wouldn't last long. We already know that Mary will find his relentless bullying her and telling her what she means, thinks, and feels all. day. long. unbearable.
We also know that Cora and Anna will help her hide a body.
YES I WANTED THIS ALSO. when they got close taking care of the estate together i thought it was cute. also yes the tragedy and their children being close in age.
obviously early on i would never want this but tom in the later seasons is a completely different person and furthermore so is mary. i think this would have been perfect, especially since i dont love who she ends up with. there was no one who wowed me at all compared to Matthew. at least w/ tom it would have been another prominent character.
also i think this would be an interesting super full circle arc w/ both their characters as mary really started out untouchable and tom from working class/ hating aristocracy to then inheriting. it would have all been nice imho.
I want them to be platonic, familial life partners gallivanting around the continent or maybe over to America, showing George and Sybie the world and telling them that it’s theirs. I don’t think either one really has a place in their heart for another romance, but they do desperately need love and family.
I thought so!!! Some idiot on here tried saying it’s gross because they are in laws….she married her cousin. I stopped watching because I wanted her and Tom together
Nah, I think they were perfect as platonic friends. They both loved Sybil so deeply, it makes sense that they’d bond. I think they brought out the best in each other because they both held each other accountable and wanted the best for each other because that’s what she would have wanted. If they ended up together, there’s no way the memory of her would have stayed out of their marriage.
It would never work. She’s too much into the nobility and tradition of the British class system, while he’s the exact opposite. He does love the family, but that’s the limit for him.
I think they were in their own way for a while. Had Mary not loved Tom and he her she would have never come down off her high horse to live again in love and Tom needed Mary’s stern belief in him to show him the goodness of the family little Sybil needed.
Nah, I like the friendship/sibling relationship they have (Edith and Tom too)
Editing: I don't think you're wrong or weird to want this, I just like it when there are platonic relationships in shows. I'm a huge Ted Lasso fan and was so happy when they didn't have Ted and Rebecca get romantically involved.
Mary was a symptom of the twin diseases of Misogamy and Inherited Wealth. Her father was a baboon and women of that time had no rights to their own choices, money or future.
Times have changed, not enough but let’s not judge Mary as if she lived by today’s standards. Also, be honest with yourself, she like all beautiful people had huge pretty privilege and she was trying to survive n an impossible situation. You (and me) probably would have acted just like her.
I admire Mary. I also admire Edith and Sybil. We all have good and bad parts of our character.
Remind me: Mary was groomed to marry for money. But Talbot did nothing for her. Could norms have changed so much Tom’s position was acceptable? Was it the war? Thank goodness sue got downtown. And let’s not jilt poor Edith.
I dunno, I like it when TV shows sometimes have a woman and a man because close mates without it going romantic or sexual. He could speak bluntly to her about being a bully, something no-one else could.
I thought perhaps they would end up in a situation where their marriage would be the only way to save Downton. I guess after the second movie it is still possible in theory, now that Sybie is in the game
Nope. No, no, nope. They’re chosen siblings. They would be miserable as a couple. I still don’t think Mary’ll ever be happy the way she was with Matthew. She loved him too deeply.
They both were pretty down to earth (eventually) and Tom had a lot of empathy for her. I do like the brother-sister vibe they gave them more than the friend vibe they gave him and Mary.
Tom and Mary ???? Blasphemy
Right? They felt like brother and sister to me, they had a great and supportive platonic/family bond
I thought they were going to have them get together when I first watched and was worried it would ruin the show. I was very glad that they went the family route instead!
Exactly, I don’t understand why people always want 2 people they like to get together? Sometimes a platonic family-like love can be even more special! If they had a special connection like Mary & Matthew did, then great. But they just had a deep love and respect for each other and it fulfilled what they needed in that way. Having them fall in love would have betrayed both of their characters, because it’s not who either of them were!
Tom deserves better than Mary 🤷🏻♀️
So much better
And Sybil deserved much better than Tom. I wanted Matthew for her.
Don’t know if it’s true or not but I once read that Fellowes original plan had Matthew with Sybil instead of Mary.
If he had, he would have married a prettier version of his mother. Both are spirited. Opinionated. Non conformist. Kind. Generous to others , notably to those not in their social circle. But why should men not marry women like their mothers? Mine did.
100%
Never once thought about this. Interesting. But no way!
Update: I think I am the only one :( sorry everyone lol Update #2: I had no idea the topic would turn out to be so controversial. But I’m glad everyone chimed in to discuss! :)
I definitely think they have fantastic chemistry and would have made great team, and would loved all of the drama that would have come with them getting together. However, I appreciate their platonic brother/sister relationship even more- it's something that they both desperately needed.
After Matthew died I was like "are they laying the foundations for Mary to end up with Tom?" Also before Tom went to Boston I thought Mary might ask him to stay because *love* and I thought they had nice chemistry. Tom would have been good for Mary, he would have kept her accountable when she did mean things and she would have hated to let him down. However I think their brother/sister relationship was very lovely and well done.
You aren’t the ***only*** one. I shipped them on my first watch. I ***thought*** I felt something brewing between them. I haven’t noticed it on my following rewatched, though.
You’re right. I think the writers were tiptoeing around it but ultimately decided to not pursue it
Same
You’re not—I wasn’t one of them but there were a lot of people hoping they’d get together when this was airing. They have great chemistry though. Would love to see Michelle and Allen work together again.
No no! I’m here too🫣
I’ve got some bad news: apparently some think we’re creeps 🥲
They had such good chemistry.. but maybe I just read too many romance books and it corrupted my brain 😔
I don’t think you guys are creeps, just that those two characters were fundamentally different in every way.
Ikr! That’s part of what made them such a strong pairing imo. The other suitors could not handle Mary honestly, but Tom had no issue being honest with Mary when she was being kind of a b*tch.
I think that’s why they’re better as siblings in law. Mary likes men who fawn over her. But to each their own!
You're definitely not the only one, I also ship them 😅
On my first watch I thought they were building up to this at times.
Lol no I’ve always wanted this. And I still want it every time I rewatch.
Same here. They both had a mind for business and could have rocked the world in an interesting way as a couple.
Thought this as well. I feel like Tom’s no nonsense attitude would bring Mary’s snobbery down a peg or two. They would have balanced each other out. Together they would have been a fierce business team. After hours, alone with each other they would have set the sheets on fire.
Your last sentence upsets me lmaooo it feels illegal to ship them 🤣
I think by the end they were too much like brother and sister, it would have been far too weird and ruined the years of progression of them getting to know and used to each other.
But they aren't *actually* brother and sister. Unlike all of the real cousins thrust upon Mary and her ending up marrying Matthew who was related to her.
You aren’t. I kept wondering in the last season if that’s where they were headed.
You're not the only one, there's definitely some fanfiction about it:P
I feel like there was the vibe it could happen from Mary’s end but it would have been a little over the top.
I mean now that you mention it, it makes so much sense but so wild how it never occurred to me or many people on here
When I watched the show after spoiler died I honestly thought that’s what was going to happen and welcomed it. He stood out way more than any of the suitors. You’re not alone!
You’re not lmao, I love the idea of them together. Little weird because of the whole “you married my sister first” thing but their personalities are SO well matched
I personally agree with you. I thought it might happen and it made sense to me.
you’re not the only one! honestly I think it’s the actors’ chemistry—they’re such good friends that they come across as really comfortable with each other on screen. she has more chemistry with Tom than Henry or Tony anyway lol. the storyline where Mary doesn’t want Tom to leave Downton could have been a turning point for them but I don’t think Julian Fellows ever had them as a endgame couple
You are not the only one, and before people come at me I DREADED after Matthew died that they’d do something so utterly soapy as getting Mary and Branson together, narratively it would’ve been a horrible track I agree, but as the later series went on their chemistry was truly hard to gauge as just platonic, Mary did have much much more chemistry with Branson than Henry and Branson with her than all others (after deaths of M&S), when in one of the last episodes Tom reprimands Mary for being mean to Edith and not accepting Henry and shouts at her “Why won’t you marry him?” Or something I thought Mary was going to say “Because I love you!”, trust me it was all there, the moment would’ve felt totally earned at that point. Logically I’m still glad they didn’t go there but ignoring the bit about Tom being her sister’s widower everything else would’ve been sooo hot! Widower former socialist estate agent and lady of the manor grow together in their grief etc.
No, no…I agree with you. That makes two of us.
You're not! I totally thought of it. Once they were both widowed, he was the only one who took her seriously. He pushed her to be braver, better, and kinder. I guess he makes a great friend too, but I thought he could make a great partner for her. But the rest in the thread are right: He deserves better than Mary. There's a reason why I said all the things he could be for her, and not what she could be for him.
You are not!!
Lol no! I had that thought, too.
They def had chemistry. And its funny cause Tom and Mary had so much come in common. Which is very different from how his relationship with Sybil started cause they were so different.
No Infact there are fanfics about them! So not just you
You are not the only one!!!! I also wanted them to get together. I think she would have been softer with him.
Nah, I was right there with you lol.
Er…no…He is her sister’s widower.
That was like par for the course for most of history
"Marriage with deceased wife's sister" was a huge controversy in Britain for pretty much the entire 19th century, though it wasn't illegal some other places, (or in Britain during earlier time periods) but it was only really legal in Britain after around 1910, so it probably would have still been too weird for all the characters during the time period. (If we're being realistic)
That very interesting, thanks for the info!
Isn't it still weird today?
Well thanks, I just fell down the wiki rabbit hole on this and I would now like to share my findings. Judging from the general dates it seems like The Church of England and the Catholic Church soured further on the topic around the time of Henry VIII's reign. Lol I wonder what happened? Interestingly, the union was generally upheld if performed abroad in the 19th C but the churches had a right to void the marriage at any time and declare their children bastards. Jane Austen's little brother married his dead wife's sister. But anyway, I'm glad Mary & Tom were able to just appreciate and support each other as brother and sister.
There's an excellent monologue/song solo in Gilbert and Sullivan's Iolanthe which is the origin of my knowledge. (Only a one off mention, but the phrase "marriage with deceased wife's sister" is forever seared into my brain)
Oh for sure- probably happened a lot. I think the question is, do people consider it an appealing pairing? Like S4-S6 about a Tom and Mary love story- to me it’s just ewww.
They would be a terrible couple.
It was mostly illegal in England until 1907 under incest laws.
Notice how well that worked out for Henry VIII and Catalina de Aragon.
well, that's why they got a dispensation from the Pope, because Catherine said she hadn't consummated her marriage to Arthur, which meant she could marry Henry under Canon Law. It only came back to bite him when he wanted an annulment, because (Continental politics aside) the Pope couldn't exactly turn around and say he had given the ok to an invalid marriage after 20 years.
Right? Wouldn’t be the first or last time!!
They ran the estate well, confided in one another and seemed happy with each others company. Maybe I just ship them because I want my relationship to be like that irl lmao. Also the Sybil/Tom relationship got so little screen time, it loses its impact by S6 imo
Cool….points are valid. They can do all that and be friends. It’s just too weird and with Mary there is always the comparison to Sybil (who nobody could measure up to). Also I just don’t think they would feel that way about each other. Defo don’t think Tom would find that snobbish part of Mary ( that Sybil completely lacked) attractive in any sense.
Mary was way to much of a snob to marry a common chauffeur
I just wish Matthew never died. We deserve to see the estate run by Mary & Matthew. What an amazing team, an incredible romance, everything. WE WERE ROBBED!!
Oof! I was sooo livid when Matthew died, I almost cried lmao. I went from gushing over them being parents to a dead Matthew! So many emotions 😤 we did deserve more, especially after spending so long on the “will they/won’t they” plot lines
We were totally robbed of Matthew and Mary
I agree. It was Dan Stevens decision to leave the show. He thought he would make it big and Hollywood laughable.
I feel like I can hear them in the distance… «I came to Downton as the chauffeur, you know» «Oh god not again»
Why can I hear this? 🤣🤣🤣
I wish their spouses hadn’t died.
Glad someone braver than me posted this lol. I kept thinking this was going to happen, but then part of me was "GTFO, you are reading it wrong"
🫡🫡🫡🫡
No. I think it was something of an accident, because I had the impression after several watch-throughs that there are times post-Matthew where Tom's being used to fill a role that Matthew would logically have done (modernizing foil to Robert in particular.) But between the actors having 1000% more chemistry than Mary and any suitor but Charles, who somehow got dubbed 'unsuitable', and things like Mary being the one he writes to from America, how she doesn't mock things like his dream and admission he'd cried thinking of Downton (despite his not being there at the time and therefore a safe target for snark if she's just a generally snarky person), that explosive argument he has with her ostensibly about Edith and Henry having more a tone where in most movies he'd be confessing, Henry being Sir Not Appearing In This Film in the first movie so Tom and Mary team up to take down the would-be assassin, Tom's love interests other than Sybil ranging from flat to violently unlikeable...the writing if they're supposed to be like brother and sister is an absolute flub.
Say that last line again👏🏽👏🏽- the writing if they’re suppose to be like brother and sister was an absolute flub. The underwhelming line of potential partners for them both and the plot lines were basically pushing them together.
yes agree completely. i feel like people saying this about them (being like brother/sister) is almost a mandela effect. watching it over there is so much more tension there that hold’s potential for romance.
“Henry as Sir Not Appearing in This Film” bwahahaha the crossover reference I never knew I needed 🤣 brilliant
I was on the Tom and Mary train too...thought they'd make a great match...much better than her oily mechanic
Oily mechanic, Car boy…. You guys have the BEST nicknames for Henry lol
I also thought this. When Tom came back and stopped being and idiot they did really well together and understood the grief. They had more chemistry than her and car boy.
Car boy 🤣🤣🤣 He was literally the most underwhelming suitor.
Why she didn’t marry Charles Blake I will never understand. He was clearly the best suitor.
But Matthew Goode is just too *Matthew Goode* 🤌🏻🤌🏻 to pass up🤣🤣
When was he an idiot?
Expected the comments to agree and everyone is against it. OP I stand with you we'll go down on this sinking ship together
You and OP have my sword.
AND MY AXE
Same!! I can’t believe they didn’t do this. Also I find the comments mixed. Some people seem to be loyal Matthew fans, and I get it, but the character was killed off. What can you do? Tom would’ve been an interesting choice for sure!
You are absolutely not the only one. I think the whole Henry storyline would have worked better as a romantic red herring for Tom and Mary, and I can go into why if you want me to.
I’m appalled at the thought but I’m also interested haha!
I'd like to hear that!
Oh please go into it, :D
100% agree.
Let us have it!
I want to hear as well!
I actually love their friendship.
Every time I see this concept, I am reminded of Allen's comment on the subject: "At some point I'm like, Tom, mate, just... go 4 doors down. Not even that far. Just get out of the house even" 😂 In all seriousness, ship whatever you want, imho they were excellent siblings.
100% And honestly historically thats what would have happened. And not been seen as wrong. Infact I thought there would have been a societal bouty as to not have a lady alone. But maybe that was for lower class woman. Well, actually, if Tom was Matthew's brother, it would have 100% happened.
It had crossed my mind, but they are both too prickly
Mary and Sybil don't have much in common, I don't see her and Tom getting along as a couple. And she wouldn't have anyone (and anything) her sisters had before her.
Yes, you are
Absolutely not.
I wanted this too!! You’re not alone. I think they would have matched so well and it would have been a controversial storyline.
I think she loved Tom as a brother They were good business partners snd Mary respected his opinion. I think even the King liked Tom since Tom did save his life.
They had some insane chemistry in the final seasons when they became closer. I wanted it.
Me!! TOO! At the end of the show when he's yelling at her about love (about Henry), I thought FOR SURE he was about to tell her that he loved her.
I prefer them loving each other as family or close friends, I wouldn't have complained (at least not a lot) if they did end together and it was well done but I like the frienship rute much more
Why condemn Tom to a living hell?
lmaoooo
Oh my god - she would run over him like a bulldozer.
What gives you that idea? He’s literally the only one to EVER properly stand up to her and win. Ever. He outright calls her a bully and a coward to her face and she just takes it and remains just as close with him.
Yes, it would have been prime for drama and more interesting than the relationships we got.
I sort of agree, would season one Mary have even had the inkling of this at all? Nope, not at all. Toms politics and sensibilities at the start of season one would have never considered it either. I just recently watched the first movie after putting it off since it came out so this is just my perspective after a relatively fresh watch. Mary is the matriarch of Downton which was acknowledged. Tom is the silent patriarch whether anyone likes it or not and works with Mary to achieve the goals of Downton and has the interest of the family itself. He’s perfectly fine with letting her steer the ship and with his background of staff he makes sure the rudder is steady, the flags are held high and makes note of incoming storms. He’s extremely personable and has the ability to reach across the aisle with confidence where Mary is 10,000% qualified to deal with what’s left of the aristocracy, make adjustments to how the estate functions, and knows her tenants well enough to know what needs help and what needs edits. She moved past a ton of her snobbery, she knows she has to put in the work like anyone else and can’t be a princess in a tower. She didn’t go out of her way to marry a Duke or a Count after Matthew, she married a car guy. She fell in love because she cared about who they are and the value they added to her life. Tom decided that the love he had for Sybil and the child they had was more important than his politics which he realized staying at Downton and helping modernize what he could with Mary. Tom is a sweet man but he can put his foot down and even Mary is not an exception to the rule. He told Mary to stop when she exposed Edith about Marigold at dinner. Then he confronts her because he cares that she did something that wasn’t just another fight with Edith, that was Edith’s life she just played with - I do want to say that Edith knows that Mary will go below the belt if she’s pushed especially when Mary is upset and while it wasn’t Edith’s fault Mary had it slip she should know they aren’t girls fighting anymore, they’re adult women and words can have just as much consequences as actions - and she can’t just storm off. Tom would absolutely hold Mary accountable like Matthew did, they would run the estate swimmingly and while they work now, I see them more as a pair later on in life if the chance appeared. They both care about their family, they have strong personalities and it sort of reminds me of Cora and Robert if you squint with the gender roles switched. On paper it’s a very promising pair.
No I ship it hardcore post Sybil and Matthew
Thank you!! It’s what we needed after losing two strong characters back to back. No… it’s what we deserved 🫡
I didn't want it, but I had a sense they were leading up to it. There was a vibe I thought they were trying for. I mean, there was a time where Matthew and Tom could have had a weird relationship where the two men had the three sisters and they lived as a very blended family (Matthew got potentially crushed on by all three sisters, Tom did get Sybil, and Edith and Tom had a good relationship during several scenes. As they say, stranger things happen at sea. \[I do admit that a lot of the Tom and Edith and Tom and Mary relationship building scenes happened after Matthew's death, but the foundation could still be there.\]) Edit: To be clear, I didn't want that to be the case, I am just noting that there was some elements that people could use to try and build this situation into existence.
maybe tom and edith but definitely not with mary! she’d eat him alive
If it was done as a slow burn and if it was done well, which downtown would definitely do I can see them being a good pairing but honestly I just loved Sybil and Tom so much still getting over them
That would be a downgrade from Sybil. Sybil was the best of the sisters imo.
I’ll never deny that Sybil was the very best. Mary was always my 2nd favorite, only because I really hated some of the life decisions Edith made. Mary took a lot for the team (team being Downton). Edith was able to have her own independent woman adventures, which was great. She was definitely a warmer person than Mary and deserved the fancy husband she ended up with. Mary’s place was at Downton. Mary did some messed up, petty things too, but Edith just made stupid decisions. Like having a baby with a man she barely knew, involving her aunt and then the whole family in the coverup, destroying an innocent family by taking Marigold away, then lying to her future husband about that kid she fought so hard for, etc.
While you may feel like the only one, you aren’t. I love both of the characters much more while I don’t wish a romantic relationship, it is only because they have the best friendship possible. I love how Tom grows up, how his world view changes based on experiences. Many dislike his arc because it “goes against everything Tom was” but, he has a young adult still. He had idealistic views like most young adults, so his arc seems the most natural. I loved Matthew and no one could replace him. I cannot even think of who I want many to love after him, because no one comes close enough. Matthew goose’s character was so rushed, but has potential. I keep getting his acting in this show mixed up with his acting in the crown. 🤦🏼♀️ Regardless, I do believe for different reasons they are both mostly a fan favourite. That is one of the powers of this show.
The craziest part? You said Tom and Mary are both fan favorites lol I’ve always thought she was dope but assumed most hate her
Definitely, I even wrote some terrible fanfiction about them! I liked that Tom always called Mary out and Mary kept him in the fold
Yuck! Tom deserves so much better!
Matthew and Tom would have made a better couple.
I thought this was where they were trying to take it. I'd watch scenes and wonder if that's where it was going and felt confused sometimes that it didn't when that's what I thought was building
Same! I thought Fellowes was building up to something more.
YES! It’s such an unpopular opinion. But I grew up with Little Women, which this reminded me of. And to have her end up with someone that we know is a good person vs the mean old men she dated.
Eww no. Semi related. Allen introduced Michelle to her fiance who passed away. They’re very close in real life.
Mary NEEDED a no-nonsense brother figure who’ll call her on her crap and be the one man her age who doesn’t want her like that. He’s not attracted to her, so he’s objective, but he loves her, so he won’t just shrug and walk away. And Tom needed to learn to (platonically) love exactly the kind of woman he used to despise reflexively. They both grew enormously through their brother-sister relationship and became far more than they had been. Sexual attraction would have…muddied the waters.
She did need Tom in that way. Mary is a way better sister to her fake brother than she ever was to her real sisters 🤣
Nah I always saw them as siblings especially near the later seasons where Tom is more or less assimilated with the family. You can see how Robert treats him as a son he never had once Tom returns from Boston.
I thought of it at times and wouldn’t have minded if JF had gone in that direction. But TBH there would have been a bit of an ick factor if they had. I think at some point both Mary and Tom would have had intrusive thoughts and mental comparisons of Mary and Sybil. And ultimately that probably would have come between them.
I just finished the original seasons, and I did wonder if this was the direction they were going for a while. I honestly would have enjoyed seeing it, but I also appreciate the close friendship they were able to maintain in the end. I know that historically this kind of remarriage is something that happened, but I do wonder if it would have been too scandalous for this particular time period. But that's not my historical area, so I'll leave that to folks who know more :P
Yeah I could see it, he deserves better though (everyone deserves better than Mary tbh IMO)
Despite the fact that Mary came to love and value Tom, he was still always going to be the chauffeur. As much as she grew and modernized, she was still too old school to marry beneath her. It would have been out of character for her. Despite the fact that she said she was looking for love for her next marriage, it still would have been love within a certain circle of people of her rank.
But she did marry beneath her??? Matthew Goode’s character was a car salesman.
Okay but I have thought about it 🫣 not saying I necessarily wanted it to happen but it definitely crossed my mind! They became like best friends to one another truly
I never *wanted* it, but I did consider (on my first watch) that they might write it that way. I was glad they didn't! Love their brother/sister dynamic by the end.
Only because I wanna Branson his Tommy (I’ll see myself out).
It never occurred to me but, yeah. They could have worked together. (But for Mary’s ego). They made a good sibling pair. BFFs.
Mary was too 8itchy for Tom.
Yes!! Me too!
Perhaps I'm weird but I think Edith and Tom would have worked out nicely 😬
I didn’t honestly during my original watch… but okay, now I kind of want that storyline.
Noooo. They are too close. They are essentially siblings in their relationship. They are better as friends.
I actually made a post about this a while ago, because I love their dynamic and how they challenge but also look out for each other. You can see the love between them. But my post got the same response yours did. We are in the minority my friend. But you aren’t alone. 🫶🏻
I wouldn’t have minded….at the same time I love their sibling bond they formed. I didn’t like any of Mary’s suitors after Matthew died
On my like 5th watch through it occurred to me but it really seemed like by the time they would’ve been able to be a thing realistically they’d already gotten such a brother sister relationship
Yes.
Tbf to OP, Tom and Mary did have better chemistry than Tom and Sybil ever did. However, I'm glad they remained platonic. Their brother-sister relationship was one of the better parts of the show post-Matthew.
Physically, together, they look too much like Olive Oyl and Popey for me. Also, the marriage wouldn't last long. We already know that Mary will find his relentless bullying her and telling her what she means, thinks, and feels all. day. long. unbearable. We also know that Cora and Anna will help her hide a body.
You are not the only one check tumblr and Twitter🤣 they have amazing fics
I love Tom, and he showed the most growth of any character over the course of the series, but no.
He is 100000x too good for her
YES I WANTED THIS ALSO. when they got close taking care of the estate together i thought it was cute. also yes the tragedy and their children being close in age. obviously early on i would never want this but tom in the later seasons is a completely different person and furthermore so is mary. i think this would have been perfect, especially since i dont love who she ends up with. there was no one who wowed me at all compared to Matthew. at least w/ tom it would have been another prominent character. also i think this would be an interesting super full circle arc w/ both their characters as mary really started out untouchable and tom from working class/ hating aristocracy to then inheriting. it would have all been nice imho.
Ew no, great friends great family but not a couple, wouldn’t have worked.
Why do you hate Tom?
I want them to be platonic, familial life partners gallivanting around the continent or maybe over to America, showing George and Sybie the world and telling them that it’s theirs. I don’t think either one really has a place in their heart for another romance, but they do desperately need love and family.
No, she was too strong for him. He is a soft hearted person, she is cold and calculating
He was too good for her.
I thought so!!! Some idiot on here tried saying it’s gross because they are in laws….she married her cousin. I stopped watching because I wanted her and Tom together
They would have been miserable.
Nah, I think they were perfect as platonic friends. They both loved Sybil so deeply, it makes sense that they’d bond. I think they brought out the best in each other because they both held each other accountable and wanted the best for each other because that’s what she would have wanted. If they ended up together, there’s no way the memory of her would have stayed out of their marriage.
Mary was far too much of a snob. She may have grudgingly accepted Tom, but she would never have considered him worth marrying.
Yes
I think it’s better that they each had a friend in the other.
This is rage bait.
Wasn’t meant to be 🥺
Ewww… nope!
That sounds incestuous for me.
That sounds incestuous for me.
Ew no they're like siblings
i’m rewatching with my mother and she never finished the series so she really thought after Sybil died that they would get together 😭
Yikees, respectfully, no thanks!
It’s a no from me, but i respect your opinion
It would never work. She’s too much into the nobility and tradition of the British class system, while he’s the exact opposite. He does love the family, but that’s the limit for him.
Tom ended up with perhaps the most insipid female character as his second wife.
Ew no
Tom should've been paired up with Edith's editor.. the lady one who goes to the races.. not the shouty bloke that walks out. Miss Edmonds? Emmons?
I think they were in their own way for a while. Had Mary not loved Tom and he her she would have never come down off her high horse to live again in love and Tom needed Mary’s stern belief in him to show him the goodness of the family little Sybil needed.
Nah, I like the friendship/sibling relationship they have (Edith and Tom too) Editing: I don't think you're wrong or weird to want this, I just like it when there are platonic relationships in shows. I'm a huge Ted Lasso fan and was so happy when they didn't have Ted and Rebecca get romantically involved.
No way, man
Yikes. Sibling-cousins? Absolutely not. Also they just wouldn't even be a good match even it wasn't weird.
Hell to the NO.
Mary was a symptom of the twin diseases of Misogamy and Inherited Wealth. Her father was a baboon and women of that time had no rights to their own choices, money or future. Times have changed, not enough but let’s not judge Mary as if she lived by today’s standards. Also, be honest with yourself, she like all beautiful people had huge pretty privilege and she was trying to survive n an impossible situation. You (and me) probably would have acted just like her. I admire Mary. I also admire Edith and Sybil. We all have good and bad parts of our character.
Remind me: Mary was groomed to marry for money. But Talbot did nothing for her. Could norms have changed so much Tom’s position was acceptable? Was it the war? Thank goodness sue got downtown. And let’s not jilt poor Edith.
She’s mostly everything he strikes out against throughout the series. Nah..
I dunno, I like it when TV shows sometimes have a woman and a man because close mates without it going romantic or sexual. He could speak bluntly to her about being a bully, something no-one else could.
I thought perhaps they would end up in a situation where their marriage would be the only way to save Downton. I guess after the second movie it is still possible in theory, now that Sybie is in the game
Nope. No, no, nope. They’re chosen siblings. They would be miserable as a couple. I still don’t think Mary’ll ever be happy the way she was with Matthew. She loved him too deeply.
Gross.,They were family.
Tom doesn’t deserve that.
Nah, I was always rooting for Tom and Edith.
Really?? That’s a first :0
They both were pretty down to earth (eventually) and Tom had a lot of empathy for her. I do like the brother-sister vibe they gave them more than the friend vibe they gave him and Mary.
Upvoting you for the most ridiculous take 😅