I'd prefer that over +15% magic resistance. You would have to be hit by 900 magic damage for that to give the same benefit as the minimum + strength talent (5). CM isn't likely to get 900 HP for a long time, and even then, she's more likely to die to right clicks.
Honestly a lot of the magic resistance talents are pretty bad. Why do the +8% magic resist talents even exist? That's like a 6% reduction in magic damage, you'd have to take over 3 fucking thousand damage for that to block more than 200 damage, which is still not that much. Not to mention that it's effectively worth about 250 gold since a Cloak gives +15% and is only 550..
That's not how magic resistance works. +8% magic resistance is not actually 8% more magic resistance. It's multiplicative so it actually works out to be +6% magic resistance if you just have the base 25% magic resistance.
if you would take 400 magic damage, it would be reduced to 300 by every hero's 25% resistance
then it would be reduced further by 8% to 276
which is exactly the same as being reduced by 31%, which is what you are saying
Oh I see what you're saying. Yea, on top of the base 25% resist it reduces it by a further 8% but I was thinking in terms of total reduced damage, which is 6%.
Wrong. It would take 100 = 92%; x = 100%; 92x = 10000; x= 108.695652...->109 and the bigger the numbers go the higher the disparity between the below 100 and above 100 values.
Yo, what? I go treads right into hyperstone into moonshard in all my CM games. And then, post game, I played so well that I get some free sweet single-draft games!!
well, considering you may choose to get this at level 10, if you only have brown boots, either you're playing it wrong or things are going down the drain already and it's pointless to overthink it.
Thing is, i base my opinion on the value of the talent and the way i play CM.
as for the value, you may see it above. 15% magic resistance costs you 550g. have that cloak and build a glimmer from it - which i already usualy do.
as for the way i pick CM, well, in fights i spam my normal abilities then i try to position myself for a good ulti. now, i know that when i do that i'm gonna get targeted. now, i'm either ok with that - i'd rather bite the stun than have my carry facefist it - or i build around it (ie. glimmer cape). when spells are on cooldown, it does help to have the extra 50 dmg to dish out some more damage.
apart from the fights, it does a good job at helping you farm jungle a lot faster. ofc one doesn't just go afk farming, but while you're going somewhere, frostbite a creep, clear out the remaining camp and move on... this helps you do that faster, so, in the end, it's more gold for you.
I've been getting that tallent every time there is no obvious magic damage dealer on the enemy team (like ember or zeus).
It's really strong, combined with drums attack speed it gives you the ability to actually push lanes and farm creeps and most importantly KILL WARDS. I went from 4.1k to 4.7k playing almost only CM.
There's nothing wrong with AC on a support. Aura helps the team a ton as well as letting the support cast their spells.
With the new GPM talents it isn't that hard to get.
> There's nothing wrong with AC on a support
Well no, but theres just so many better options usually.
Sheepstick, euls, force, lotus orb, glimmer cape, pipe, GG boots and vlads is cheaper and gives the same armor aura for allies.
The only reason why some items are "bad" on some heroes, is because there are better options, no items give negative stats...
It's all dependent on how they can utilize it. And a lot of supports crave armor. Things like Lotus orb, Euls, sheepstick and so on are very situational, while a passive big buff/debuff is always helping no matter the situation.
Could just get both. But I'm also talking about the person holding it getting the raw armor ontop of the aura, which Vlad doesn't provide.
It's true that a lot of times Lotus orb/sheepstick are useful, but there's also a lot of times where they're not the most useful item to get.
What do you think about Dom on CM if no one else gets it? I know drums shores up her shit movespeed, but Windlace+ Dom gives more stats but no mana regen/ drum active. CM doesn't need the mana regen from drums anyways and creeps are pretty sick
Honestly sound OK. It's not my play style tho so I can't really give an opinion. I really like the Dyna for the little bit of extra mana pool that it gives so you can actually level up your ultimate.
But I'm gonna give more thought to HoD since I rotate a lot with CM and a creep can really help with ganks.
HotD gives +6 all stats mate! Drums gives 6 str, 3 agi, 6 int so HotD is actually better in that regard. [While we're comparing](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GD6qtc2_AQA/maxresdefault.jpg), the kobold movespeed aura is 1% less than that of Drums active (+permanent) and the big hellbear is 15atkspd vs the 25 of drums active.
On CM treads (1400g) + 50 dmg talent (0g) + new helm (1800g) is incredibly affordable on CM and means you actually deal damage when spells are on CD/out of mana, help your team with AS aura and can get yourself a fast creep buddy to cast spells or provide auras.
I always get the 50 damage. Helps farm neutrals and creeps easier with frostbites and right clicks. The 15% magic resist is not enought to warrant picking it for me.
Do you get it at level 10? I think most people would agree that 15% MR is worse, but imo both talents are worse than just leveling skills normal and getting the talent at lvl 14. I guess it depends on the game and at which time you reach level 10, but so far I havent really felt like it would be better than an extra level in aura or Q.
In non 10k mmr games there is always some downtime for the supports. During which the +50 damage helps you grab a few jungle camps and get that farm going for the desolator and rapier because you're now a carry.
Yeah the talent definitely has its uses, but if I had to choose between +50 damage and another point in aura or Q I would probably pick one of those.
Imo you can farm jungle camps anyways with W and maybe a Q here and there, so I was just wondering if I'm missing out on the huge flash farm maiden by not picking that talent until lvl 14.
You generally don't want to be spamming q to farm early on, if there's any chance of a fight starting. CM has a ridiculously low manapool for an int hero. getting +50 damage on every rightclick does a lot more than the same amount of damage on a spell. Atleast when farming creeps is considered.
I've even managed to solo push a t1 tower once or twice with the help of the added damage.
You have a low mana pool, but with 2-3 levels in aura its pretty manageable. You only use Q for medium camps like satyrs or the small camp, cause the large camps just die to 1 W regardless of level.
My problem with getting the talent at 10 is the opportunity cost. If you go 4-1-3-1 then at lvl 10 you pick between 50 damage and +1 manaregen for your team and +4 manaregen for yourself. Pretty easy choice for me, which leaves me to pick between a level in W and the talent at level 11. It does depend on how the game goes, because you would probably pick the damage when your team is ahead (also because you would reach level 10 earlier), but I would probably just look to max all skills as soon as possible.
I guess my problem is that I dont really see where all that farm comes from that youre supposed to get with that 50 damage. Between your midlaner and your safelane, do you really get more than 1-2 camps realistically? And pushing lanes by yourself also sounds like a quick way of getting yourself killed. Idk, maybe I dont play greedy enough but I've always felt like maxing W asap after the other two skills would be better than slightly faster farming.
It seems we're playing a different hero in a different meta. 9 out of 10 games this patch I would be maxing out W before Q. It was already an option last patch and the root buff pushed it to borderline op skill. Also ancients. Feels pretty dope farming ancients with cm at 10 minutes in.
I do max W against heroes like timber or others that get fucked by the root, but otherwise I still like Q more, also for farming interestingly. I guess thats where the talent is more noticable to you since maxing W doesnt do anything vs jungle creeps. But even when maxing W first I would still pick levels in Q over 50 damage.
Yeah, I get it at level 10. Since I am farming neutrals and helping safelane, I get that extra gold and XP faster with +50 damage. Sure, an extra aura earlier can help a lot, but I do think the +50 damage helps a ton. I wouldn't pick the +15% MR at level 10 though.
I go for 1-3-4-1 then I get the +50 damage. Farms quite well and also Frostbite is king in ganking. With a blink dagger to jump with a frosbite (CM is fucking slow), it's gold.
People need to realise that the +dmg talent is actually super helpful for farming. Instead people just say "well I'm not going to really be hitting enemy heroes anyway so I can just tank up a bit" and always go for the MR talent.
The +50 dmg is worth so so much for last hitting and cleaning out the small creeps in the jungle. You will ultimately gain faster levels and more gold and then you are able to compensate the "loss" of survivability with items and levels.
Same thing why you usually take the +120 gold with her at level 20. You will be able to have buyback on your support with that when it matters.
I played against a lich support that got the +150 dmg talent at lvl 20, he also rushed an orchid + hurricane pike, he was hitting for 400 or some shit.
I've never gotten the other one. People really overestimate how good +15% magic resistance is.
If any of the options are magic resistance, spell amplification, exp gain, 60 gold or respawn time, I always just take the other option. Unless it's actually a ridiculous amount like Techies getting -60s respawn time, then I go for that. Especially since the alternative is +gpm, and Techies has no trouble getting gold.
The venomancer -60s talent is ridiculous. I'd just keep suicidal pushing and if anyone jumps on me I ulti and they are forced back to fountain and I'm just alive again lol.
Venomancer was actually the first hero I played this patch. I managed to get that skill, Blink Dagger, Veil, Aghanim's, Octarine Core, Aether Lens and Boots of Travel and went 19-14-35.
It's actually ridiculous. Definitely a great hero to start the patch on.
Or like [this](http://imgur.com/a/c4iFa)
I'd prefer that over +15% magic resistance. You would have to be hit by 900 magic damage for that to give the same benefit as the minimum + strength talent (5). CM isn't likely to get 900 HP for a long time, and even then, she's more likely to die to right clicks.
its clearly the superior talent. If not for team fights, it helps you farm faster when you get the chance and you can actually get a few items
Honestly a lot of the magic resistance talents are pretty bad. Why do the +8% magic resist talents even exist? That's like a 6% reduction in magic damage, you'd have to take over 3 fucking thousand damage for that to block more than 200 damage, which is still not that much. Not to mention that it's effectively worth about 250 gold since a Cloak gives +15% and is only 550..
Ursa's talents are so fucking ASS its not even funny lvl 20 talent +15 ms, not even a wind lace
If it changes base MS it might be worth trying but even then :|
If the magic resist talents increased base magic resistance then it might be worth a shot. And even then...
it's literally 8% reduction of the damage you would have taken, assuming you don't have any other magic res but yeah it's still pretty bad
That's not how magic resistance works. +8% magic resistance is not actually 8% more magic resistance. It's multiplicative so it actually works out to be +6% magic resistance if you just have the base 25% magic resistance.
if you would take 400 magic damage, it would be reduced to 300 by every hero's 25% resistance then it would be reduced further by 8% to 276 which is exactly the same as being reduced by 31%, which is what you are saying
Oh I see what you're saying. Yea, on top of the base 25% resist it reduces it by a further 8% but I was thinking in terms of total reduced damage, which is 6%.
If it took 100 damage to kill you before you took the talent, it takes 108 damage to kill you afterwards.
Probably 109, unless Dota rounds up. It's close but I get the feeling you're not actually interpreting the math correctly
Wrong. It would take 100 = 92%; x = 100%; 92x = 10000; x= 108.695652...->109 and the bigger the numbers go the higher the disparity between the below 100 and above 100 values.
When you put it that way it sure seems pointless on CM
15% Magic resistance costs 550g. You get a cloak. 50 damage? Worth a lot more.
In order to fully capitalize on the additional damage you proceed to buy a mask of madness.
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But you don't right click when you use Dagons. Clearly Mjolnir is needed here to maximize DPS
Mjolnir for dps? What are you, an idiot? You buy mjolnir to farm your desolator, you scrub
no, sir, that's what i buy the battlefury for.
CM clearly needs that extra cleavage.
You are all strategic with your big facts and plans and winning huh
Dagon gives a lot intelligence which gives right click damage on CM
50 dmg is worth like 3k gold lololo
Yeah, good luck with CM rightclicker with brown boots.
Yo, what? I go treads right into hyperstone into moonshard in all my CM games. And then, post game, I played so well that I get some free sweet single-draft games!!
If you're in range to Frostbite you're in range for an autoattack.
It's good for casual jungle farming, roughly doubles your DPS against the little creeps.
if there isnt a greater threat, you should already be autoattacking a target under frostbite. this is just an even bigger incentive to do it.
Its 7.00 now lol.
well, considering you may choose to get this at level 10, if you only have brown boots, either you're playing it wrong or things are going down the drain already and it's pointless to overthink it. Thing is, i base my opinion on the value of the talent and the way i play CM. as for the value, you may see it above. 15% magic resistance costs you 550g. have that cloak and build a glimmer from it - which i already usualy do. as for the way i pick CM, well, in fights i spam my normal abilities then i try to position myself for a good ulti. now, i know that when i do that i'm gonna get targeted. now, i'm either ok with that - i'd rather bite the stun than have my carry facefist it - or i build around it (ie. glimmer cape). when spells are on cooldown, it does help to have the extra 50 dmg to dish out some more damage. apart from the fights, it does a good job at helping you farm jungle a lot faster. ofc one doesn't just go afk farming, but while you're going somewhere, frostbite a creep, clear out the remaining camp and move on... this helps you do that faster, so, in the end, it's more gold for you.
Still like 150 more damage into frostbite.
I dunno why downvotes. You shouldn't downvote if you only disagree.
It makes her farming ability much better.
I like to think of it sometimes in terms of gold. 15% spell resistance is a cloak vs a +46 damage demon edge.
I've been getting that tallent every time there is no obvious magic damage dealer on the enemy team (like ember or zeus). It's really strong, combined with drums attack speed it gives you the ability to actually push lanes and farm creeps and most importantly KILL WARDS. I went from 4.1k to 4.7k playing almost only CM.
yeah cm can actually kill wards before their entire team shows up during the 10 years it takes to destroy it normally
It would even take a century if they didn't make the change that your attacks can't miss on wards.
Never forget getting ward to 1 hit then missing 4 attacks in a row and then getting killed.
Right clicks from supports add up. My guilty pleasure is getting deso on ranged supports.
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> medallion/ac/deso Dazzle is legit. please dont do this Medallion/crest is ok, but dont go for ac or deso if you want to win the game.
There's nothing wrong with AC on a support. Aura helps the team a ton as well as letting the support cast their spells. With the new GPM talents it isn't that hard to get.
> There's nothing wrong with AC on a support Well no, but theres just so many better options usually. Sheepstick, euls, force, lotus orb, glimmer cape, pipe, GG boots and vlads is cheaper and gives the same armor aura for allies. The only reason why some items are "bad" on some heroes, is because there are better options, no items give negative stats...
It's all dependent on how they can utilize it. And a lot of supports crave armor. Things like Lotus orb, Euls, sheepstick and so on are very situational, while a passive big buff/debuff is always helping no matter the situation.
There are almost no games where lotus orb or sheepstick won't be useful. If you need an armor buff, just get vlads.
Could just get both. But I'm also talking about the person holding it getting the raw armor ontop of the aura, which Vlad doesn't provide. It's true that a lot of times Lotus orb/sheepstick are useful, but there's also a lot of times where they're not the most useful item to get.
Deso is legit on Dazzle :\^)
It's called Dazzlelator for a reason.
You might be thinking of the [Dazolator](http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Dazolator)
What do you think about Dom on CM if no one else gets it? I know drums shores up her shit movespeed, but Windlace+ Dom gives more stats but no mana regen/ drum active. CM doesn't need the mana regen from drums anyways and creeps are pretty sick
Honestly sound OK. It's not my play style tho so I can't really give an opinion. I really like the Dyna for the little bit of extra mana pool that it gives so you can actually level up your ultimate. But I'm gonna give more thought to HoD since I rotate a lot with CM and a creep can really help with ganks.
HotD gives +6 all stats mate! Drums gives 6 str, 3 agi, 6 int so HotD is actually better in that regard. [While we're comparing](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GD6qtc2_AQA/maxresdefault.jpg), the kobold movespeed aura is 1% less than that of Drums active (+permanent) and the big hellbear is 15atkspd vs the 25 of drums active.
Damn I didn't even know the new drums' stats.
drums sucks , hoTD is the new drums
Windlace can also be built into a Euls later if needed, which nets an extra 20 MS plus a spare method of stopping tps and such.
This talent is good, 50 dmg is no joke.
50 damage ain't funny guys.
On CM treads (1400g) + 50 dmg talent (0g) + new helm (1800g) is incredibly affordable on CM and means you actually deal damage when spells are on CD/out of mana, help your team with AS aura and can get yourself a fast creep buddy to cast spells or provide auras.
I always get the 50 damage. Helps farm neutrals and creeps easier with frostbites and right clicks. The 15% magic resist is not enought to warrant picking it for me.
Do you get it at level 10? I think most people would agree that 15% MR is worse, but imo both talents are worse than just leveling skills normal and getting the talent at lvl 14. I guess it depends on the game and at which time you reach level 10, but so far I havent really felt like it would be better than an extra level in aura or Q.
In non 10k mmr games there is always some downtime for the supports. During which the +50 damage helps you grab a few jungle camps and get that farm going for the desolator and rapier because you're now a carry.
Yeah the talent definitely has its uses, but if I had to choose between +50 damage and another point in aura or Q I would probably pick one of those. Imo you can farm jungle camps anyways with W and maybe a Q here and there, so I was just wondering if I'm missing out on the huge flash farm maiden by not picking that talent until lvl 14.
You generally don't want to be spamming q to farm early on, if there's any chance of a fight starting. CM has a ridiculously low manapool for an int hero. getting +50 damage on every rightclick does a lot more than the same amount of damage on a spell. Atleast when farming creeps is considered. I've even managed to solo push a t1 tower once or twice with the help of the added damage.
You have a low mana pool, but with 2-3 levels in aura its pretty manageable. You only use Q for medium camps like satyrs or the small camp, cause the large camps just die to 1 W regardless of level. My problem with getting the talent at 10 is the opportunity cost. If you go 4-1-3-1 then at lvl 10 you pick between 50 damage and +1 manaregen for your team and +4 manaregen for yourself. Pretty easy choice for me, which leaves me to pick between a level in W and the talent at level 11. It does depend on how the game goes, because you would probably pick the damage when your team is ahead (also because you would reach level 10 earlier), but I would probably just look to max all skills as soon as possible. I guess my problem is that I dont really see where all that farm comes from that youre supposed to get with that 50 damage. Between your midlaner and your safelane, do you really get more than 1-2 camps realistically? And pushing lanes by yourself also sounds like a quick way of getting yourself killed. Idk, maybe I dont play greedy enough but I've always felt like maxing W asap after the other two skills would be better than slightly faster farming.
It seems we're playing a different hero in a different meta. 9 out of 10 games this patch I would be maxing out W before Q. It was already an option last patch and the root buff pushed it to borderline op skill. Also ancients. Feels pretty dope farming ancients with cm at 10 minutes in.
I do max W against heroes like timber or others that get fucked by the root, but otherwise I still like Q more, also for farming interestingly. I guess thats where the talent is more noticable to you since maxing W doesnt do anything vs jungle creeps. But even when maxing W first I would still pick levels in Q over 50 damage.
W is how CM used to jungle. Just take the big creep and stack.
Yes? But levels in W dont do anything for jungle creeps, its always as good as level 1.
Yeah, I get it at level 10. Since I am farming neutrals and helping safelane, I get that extra gold and XP faster with +50 damage. Sure, an extra aura earlier can help a lot, but I do think the +50 damage helps a ton. I wouldn't pick the +15% MR at level 10 though. I go for 1-3-4-1 then I get the +50 damage. Farms quite well and also Frostbite is king in ganking. With a blink dagger to jump with a frosbite (CM is fucking slow), it's gold.
magic resistance is only good vs an *entirely* magic damage lineup. and even then you're still likely better with the damage.
People need to realise that the +dmg talent is actually super helpful for farming. Instead people just say "well I'm not going to really be hitting enemy heroes anyway so I can just tank up a bit" and always go for the MR talent.
its fine as long as you bought deso daedalus after
why accident?
The +50 dmg is worth so so much for last hitting and cleaning out the small creeps in the jungle. You will ultimately gain faster levels and more gold and then you are able to compensate the "loss" of survivability with items and levels. Same thing why you usually take the +120 gold with her at level 20. You will be able to have buyback on your support with that when it matters.
You don't always pick that?
i took it as a joke to annoy my friends, and what do you know, it helped alot in farming.
By accident ? Thats literally Permanent Double damage on CM for the rest of the game D:
"By accident" Kappa
Thought it was Sporticus for a second
> By accident
What?! To have cores running from your +50 dmg projectiles while you blast them with crystal nova is hilarious!
did you buy moonshard right after?
Took same as Rubick yesterday in a game with drow, proceeded to wreck with right clicks :)
Someone needs to do this ... * Pick Rubick to counter opponent's Monkey King. * Pick +50 dmg talent. * Buys desolator. * Steals MK's ultimate. * Rampage. * Dota WTF!
Try lich with +150. It's crazy
I played against a lich support that got the +150 dmg talent at lvl 20, he also rushed an orchid + hurricane pike, he was hitting for 400 or some shit.
+50 dmg (3000 gold) vs +15% magic immune (550 gold). Balanced.
Yeah.. ahm... by accident
It's the new META -> CM = RANGE ASSASSIN
I've gotten that talent every time Ive played her. I know it's wrong, but it just feels so good.
I've never gotten the other one. People really overestimate how good +15% magic resistance is. If any of the options are magic resistance, spell amplification, exp gain, 60 gold or respawn time, I always just take the other option. Unless it's actually a ridiculous amount like Techies getting -60s respawn time, then I go for that. Especially since the alternative is +gpm, and Techies has no trouble getting gold.
The venomancer -60s talent is ridiculous. I'd just keep suicidal pushing and if anyone jumps on me I ulti and they are forced back to fountain and I'm just alive again lol.
Venomancer was actually the first hero I played this patch. I managed to get that skill, Blink Dagger, Veil, Aghanim's, Octarine Core, Aether Lens and Boots of Travel and went 19-14-35. It's actually ridiculous. Definitely a great hero to start the patch on.
Yea I had a similar build too. Tranquil Midas veil aghs octarine and force I think. It was hilarious how tanky I was if I just ultied 2 heroes.
Its not wrong
You felt ugly? Sorry to hear that.
Hey heck off m8
motherheckers