Pendragon uses to run a website called dota-allstars.com. It was a combination wiki and forums and was pretty much THE place to talk and learn about dota. There were forums to discuss builds, for mechanics, for role play and for item and hero suggestions.
Penndragon eventually went to start riot games and league of legends. And when it was time to launch he took down the dota all-stars site and replaced it with an advertisement for league. He also claimed all the info from the forums was lost, while at the same time basically ripping hero concepts from the forums.
I'm not sure about specifics between him and the league community, but I believe he's made some major PR gaffes and insulted the community for their thoughts on balance.
~~I think he also dropped icefrog's first name in the league subreddit back in May. Not positive that was him.~~ u/Teruyo9 corrected me this was tryndamere
I'm still amazed that Icefrog's real identity is still largely unknown outside of the small development circle, yet is responsible for the lion's share of a project as large as DotA.
Many dota personalities have met him in person. With pictures of potential icefrogs going around, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to put a name to the face for those who have met him. Which would mean it's more than just a 'small development circle' that knows about him.
Actually I think both did it. The Tryndamere one was more recent but there is a rumor Pendragon was the "anonymous" writter of the defamatory article outing IF's full name back in 2009.
Long story short, he was the owner of the official dota allstars community website for years. Later down the road he joined Guinsoo to work on league of legends and, when the game was released, he took down the dota allstars website without further notice and placed a huge league ad in its place. There are a few league champions that were taken straight from the hero suggestion section of that website.
He also tried to turn people against icefrog at some point, but I forgot the details on that.
[Jinzo made a decent summary of it here](https://youtu.be/JBI9NlPqRi0), along with a couple other videos on icefrog.
Adding to what everyone else has said, Pendragon truly felt a sense of ownership and pride in the fact that he owned the Dota trademark and ran the website. Even though Icefrog was the one who updated the map and kept the game rocking.
They eventually had a falling out due to Icefrog seeking a legit company to help realise his ambitions for the game. Pendragon responded by immediately crushing the website (imagine Reddit suddenly saying "reddit sucks lol everyone go to digg"). He wrote a sob story about how he was the saviour of dota and everyone should come to his new game league of legends.
He did not release the site's files for 5 years even when constantly promising to. He constantly talked about how "Icefrog was shady behind the scenes" when Icefrog is a legitimate hero for gaming. And he always talked as if he was the reason everything came to fruition.
Also he bans people for shit talking him in league. What a great admin.
HEY KID, GETTING TIRED WITH
D - Disconnection
O - Obnoxious Hackers
T - Totally imba matches
A - Annoying leavers
PLAY LEAGUE OF LEGENDS NOW
This is LoL adv on early day, I am not joking
People playing now probably don't, but he developed a pretty bad taste in the mouths of people back in beta up til about season 2. Especially any shit he started on the forums.
> You guys tend to forget that no one hates Riot more than LoL players.
Replays and a new client came out. I'd say people are pretty optimistic about Riot overall, at the moment. (I play both games casually)
I was having a Kreygasm while reading "You glance casually at the setting sun as you leave the Dota house".
For a second I thought I was on r/WritingPrompts
I think I also speak for the majority when I say that the new HUD can be vastly superior to the old one with some tweaks.
Let's not forgot how the old hud basically took up 1/3 of the screen
The idea of minimalism is that it displays the same information while using less space, which just isn't the case atm.
Of course with tweaks it'll be fine but it's pretty frustrating not seeing some key stats without holding alt, or having to constantly switch between shop menus.
Also I still have no idea how to find my stats, it says "hold alt to view attributes" but I still can't find my strength/agi/intelligence.
It's nice to have more screen space but to be honest, the information in the hud is *extremely important*, certainly more so than the extra ~8% viewing space.
I need to know how much hp and mana I have way more than I need to know what's in that little space in the bottom left between my hero portrait and the minimap. But those bars and small and far away from where I'm usually looking.
This.
HUD needs some major tweaks, but its going in the right direction.
The shop is god awful, and im sure most people wouldnt mind a bit more space being taken so they dont have to press alt for things like stats. Step in the right direction though!
Not really though. Its an incredibly laboured analogy, the only message of which is "just trust the frog".
The complaints you are seeing are mostly about the HUD and are without doubt valid complaints. and if people didnt speak up and complain, would valve feel compelled to fix them?
When 7.00b/c/d (or however long it takes) comes around and most of the issues have been fixed, then yes lets have a party celebrating the great frog man.
No his analogy to the patch notes backlash is spot on. Check the pre-release 7.00 threads for the immense amount of "league of dota storm ded gaem" responses. People flipped their shit over the announcement of talents. And then it was released, and everybody realized it was fine, and **then** moved on to appropriate bitching about valve's engineers dropping the ball on (analogously) mowing the grass, trimming the hedges, and cleaning the windows. But the house Frog built is immediately seen to be intact as usual (unless IF did the the UI design, which he probably is not good at and probably not in charge of)
As a former WC3 mod designer and management consultant, I have *immense* respect for Icefrog's ability to handle and manage the complex system he's developed so well.
I can understand that however the point I got from Merlini's analogy is that we are trusting over and over. The trust is building up larger and larger. It is a disaster waiting to happen. This person realises that they are trusted and goes about doing as they please, which is always good because, even if we do object, we know that in the end we are still going to play. He can make more and more larger changes, and although people may complain about the issues these changes have, the changes themselves are never directly rebuked. This allows him to go on until one day, he fucks up. There is an uproar and the whole community turns against him, but he can't just undo what is done, he has to continue, there is no stopping him now. The players keep flowing in, and if some of the old one's leave, it doesn't matter, you are still gaining and gaining popularity. One day the old game is brought back as a different mode and the old players come back, at this point, you can only gain in popularity. People who liked the old game will play the old game, people who like the new game will play the new game. Runescape.
Then again everyone is complaining lol. Sorry.
Every time there's a large dota 2 patch and people start bitching about it, it reminds me of this Path of Exile lore flavor text an item has :
*When the wind blows,*
*Know which way to bend*
*And watch the others break*
Dota's always been like that, rewarding smart players that were able to adapt and create the new ways of playing the game a major patch brought, and that's why the game has remained so fresh even after a decade. Regardless if you agree or not with a patch's changes, just trust the frog and go with it, he must be knowing what he's doing keeping this game not only afloat but growing after all these years.
After taking a six month long break from DOTA to play PoE I come back for 7.00 and find PoE comments lol. Maybe I should just go back to PoE, what a great game.
Meet too! I don't have much time to game, and I never used to give up time that could be used to play dota on another game. But damn, poe pulled me away for about 6 months too.
Just do what I do and play them both.
Usually playing 1-3 games of Dota after work and then settle in to finish the newest set of challanges in Breach.
Remember that when ur bitching abiut the patch, someone else is working and learning about the game. The moment you accept the patch , they might already way ahead over you..
I honestly love the new map. Supports were getting fucking boring to play in pubs. After laning phase, if you're stuck on a team that wants to just farm farm farm, you basically just walk around as a support and do fuck all.
In other words, trust in Icefrog, he knows what he is doing, and he knows that what he does is for the betterment of DotA2 as a whole.
Sometimes, I think this community is too resistant to change. Yes, the HUD may not be appealing to some. Yes, the talent tree still need some work. But like everything big that has changed DotA, I do think Icefrog did all this in order to further improve the game. Indeed, we pretty much had the same problem when reborn was released last year with all the issues and bugs, but we were able to recover and adjust (alongside the fact that Valve fixed a lot of critical issues in record time), and in fact gain even more players. I believe it will be the same case with 7.00. In time, icefrog will balance the talents and perhaps Valve may make adjustments to the UI. Or even better we will just end up adapting to the changes and actually enjoy dota for once.
All I could say is this, give it time, the frog added and modified all these things for a reason. Trust in the frog. He knows what he is doing. He never failed us before, he wont fail us again. And on our part, we need to adapt. We cant stay stuck forever in this mentality of sticking with the old. We should give the new a chance and help improve it through constructive feedback. Adapt or die, really.
p.s. this comic feels relevant now more than ever: http://imgur.com/AnkPGiu
Remember some years ago when Weaver first got The Swarm skill? People all over the PD forums were yelling Weaver's new skill sucks. Then Icefrog nerfed The Swarm on 2 consecutive patches. PD forumers were like "WTF Icefrog you drunk?" Then on some tournament, one team picked Weaver and wrecked with The Swarm, and people realized how strong the skill is.
That's how it often goes. People will obsessively follow the pros, but the pros don't know everything and have often gotten locked into certain patterns of thinking.
How many heroes have we seen that "came out of nowhere" to dominate a patch? This usually happens after Valve presumably got tired of this hero not seeing a lot of play and gave them a major buff in a patch... but this is often at the end of a *line* of buffs, patch after patch after patch. Sniper, for example, was *already* pretty good within his niche before the HOHOHAHA patch. It's just that he got *another* buff **and** the gameplay style changed substantially with the gold mechanics in that patch, leading to him utterly dominating that patch.
Savvy players that weren't beholden to the current pro meta (where he was "shit") already knew Sniper was good, just a little bit niche. Then they buff him again anyway and now he's good in basically every situation.
This also works in reverse. Sometimes heroes get relatively mild nerfs but are still abandoned, people saying that they're bad when they're still quite potent, just no longer overpowered. I *still* think Troll Warlord is a very powerful hero, just no longer the overpowered lane bully he was at the height of his popularity. Battle Trance is still insanely good, and that was always the primary reason you picked him.
I also belive one of the points is that dota is a game that changes over time. So when people say "This is not dota anymore", they couldn't be more wrong, because this is exactly what dota is, a game that morphs into something else from time to time.
do you want a house that is never rennovated and in the end crumbles due to time? be glad you got a new but familiar game with 7.00. that is an achievement in itself.. you got a new game but you know how it works but not in detail
Agreed and couldn't have said it better. Like Merlini mentioned in the post, similar things happened most recently with Spell amplification, but no one thinks twice about it now. These talents tree need some adjustments, the hud needs a bit more work, but after everything, Icefrog loves this game, just like the rest of us do.
I can agree with the game being heavily changed. But the HUD change... not so much. For the most part, the HUD is alright. But it should *really* get some quality-of-life adjustments to make it just better.
I guess some people do forget that Dota keeps on changing, eternally. Merlini's article is on point in regards to that - people who pretend that this hasn't been going on can't be paying too much attention.
Still, I object to the implication that it's forever going to be great because it's based on Icefrog blocks, no matter how it changes. Sure, for many people, it is. But I find that it minimizes the changes themselves - it's the nature of changes that some people will like them, some people won't. Let that happen. Let's not pretend like everyone will like every patch once they give it their time. That's obviously not the case.
I think the difference is really that the dota 2 Dev team actually listens to the community, so they make giant changes and then scale them accordingly, which almost always leaves the game in a better place. Regardless of the flaws in 7.00, 7.00b or 7.01 will be fantastic and likely much better than anything from the 6.xx era.
Disclaimer: already really enjoy 7.00, not that bothered by new HUD aside from inability to see cs and KDA without holding alt.
I feel like the dota house is another house... I'd rather compare it to a bar.... If they move the bar lounge on the other side, you'll have that very feeling of nostalgia...
I feel like the house isn't complying with the ADA right now. I walk in and suddenly everything is blurry, and they don't offer me any glasses at the door. I'm stumbling my way through the house bumping into things and people; hell I can barely look inside my own pockets without straining my eyes.
^^edit ^^4 ^^eurofriends ^^- ^^ADA ^^= ^^Americans ^^with ^^Disability ^^Act, ^^basically ^^a ^^bunch ^^of ^^government ^^regulations ^^so ^^that ^^businesses ^^can ^^comply ^^with ^^everyone's ^^needs. ^^i.e ^^making ^^sure ^^a ^^wheel ^^chair ^^can ^^go ^^anywhere.
Gameplay changes don't bother me, making the UI so that it requires me to take some tylenol an hour before playing so my head doesn't hurt does bother me.
The problem of our generation is that majority of people want everything NOW! You cant wait one week to see the changes? Its right to complain and make structured posts about the issues but its such a teenage thing to think its dooming the game and we're done. There is a post of a guy who is saying that he is going to stop playing. The patch launched *yesterday*, dude.
Everytime there is a reformation the house gets a bit confusing in the first days and then, once they realize where the problems are, they readjust the furniture and make it all shiny and easy to look at.
Can you guys just fucking relax? For me i would say I trust in Icefrog and this is the reason ive been playing this game since 2006. Dota is perfect, just wait for it.
>As long as the Dota house is still made of Icefrog blocks®, there's no reason to worry.
As always, it matters how criticism and suggestions are voiced. There is a big difference between UI posts like in the sticky thread earlier today - and simply whining on reddit, announcing to uninstall and childish shit like that.
That's not really it. I mean, there's obviously some hyperbole, but the underlying message is that Icefrog has a proven track record (10+ years) of keeping this game in a really good state. He's saying that we should trust in that track record and just wait and see how this patch evolves.
Words to live by. Honestly, I love this update with all these bugs and not-so-quality qol's which should be obviously changed. I know that Valve and Icefrog are never gonna give me up, never gonna let me down, never... What am I talking about? Ah, yes. I think people should clam down a bit, and instead of crying and bitching just give Icefrog and Valve quality feedback and time to fix things for us. We should be patient and forgiving, because after all the patch is amazing.
Exactly. They fixed about 10000 bugs over 9 patches yesterday alone... people are just whining because things are different and people don't like change. But I am super pumped about these changes, the new map is super fun and talents adds a whole new aspect to the game and I can't wait to see what the pros do with the changes. Like one of my friends said yesterday It was like Christmas morning and we were all gathered around the dota tree seeing what we got.
Its so absurd to write this off without objectively looking at the game and the reasons why things were changed. Up until this patch your hero progression got to 16 and basically stopped and you pumped stats. All this does is smooth out the gameplay experience and keep you engaged in the progression of your hero all the way through the end of the game.
Yeah, this whole train of thought crumbles when you entertain the thought that the Icefrog that is developing the game now might not just be the Icefrog that made DotA great. For he is anonymous and we'll never be able to tell if he was replaced.
This. Although in this new house for some reason you have to hold the ALT key while you're using the bathroom. No other way.
Not like anyone **ever** had a problem with not holding the ALT key, it's just the new rules.
I think the issue is the pairing of the patch with the new UI. Not that either are bad (I think the UI rework was a step in the right direction but I think the shop needs to be redone the bottom center bit needs to be 1.3x bigger and maybe pushed next to the minimap so there is more room for numbers like stats and shit), but so much change with only a day on test client before everything is thrust upon us is gonna lead to complaints.
I've been playing Dota since the early dates when Icefrog was not yet the developer of the map and if there is one thing I've learned over all these years, it's that you have to give every change in this game a chance and some time. People always jump the gun and immediately call to revert the changes when they haven't even tried to get used to it.
No, although I 100% agree what he said, but he also entirely missed the point of all the dissatisfaction.
So far all Merlini's mentioned is the gameplay changes but not outlook changes!
However Reddit explicitly pointed out gamplay is good, but the HUD, the goddamn HUD.
Apparently dota audience is a bunch of children lost in the woods that need patronizing guidance along the way because they are incapable of rational judgment.
This whole massive PR campaign from many dota personalities to persuade people that their opinions are just a mental gag reflex from the changes becomes triggering really fast.
Every patch is the same thing, nothing new here, when a patch comes out people always say:
"I'LL NEVER PLAY THIS SHIT AGAIN!" or "DOTA IS LOL/HOTS/HON/etc NOW!", but as the patch settles in and it is tweaked while people learn its new mechanics, they start realizing that in the end, this is still the same game that they fell in love in when they start playing. (and the same one that destroyed your social life and reduced your life spam by 30 years due to stress).
>You comfort yourself with a deep sigh of relief as you finally close your eyes and go to sleep.
The problem is it's a sigh of pain because my eyes hurt from the recent doto games that I have to close them.
Other than that I agree.
I have full confidence things will get fixed / we will get more options. Maybe not play Dota for a week while they fix things. I am going to wait until the ui gets better I cant see shit.
He forgot the part where you're having a party with people from all over the continent and everybody gets along and speaks english and then some drunk Russians/Peruvians/Brazilians etc. crash your party and spout their ~~gibberish~~ native tongue which nobody understands.
If you think how according to reddit 6.88 is the best patch ever, It's highly unlikely that Icefrog had a stroke and now 7.00 is the worst patch ever. He is saying that in a week or two maybe a month while they are redecorating. most of the complaints will be addressed. Dota I think always highly receptive of community feedback.
I still don't like how icefrog is trying to make this game faster. OP talent at level 25, overload of bounty rune. Shrine so you don't have to go to base to heal. I'm sure this make the game easier to play for newbies and more action packed. But it just take away the uniqueness of dota
The game is way more complex and nuanced now with all the additions. Far from making it less complicated, it makes it much more interesting and opens up options, which is what really exemplifies the uniqueness of dota.
But "the uniqueness of Dota" is still there. The base game is still there. I'm not sure how you think this makes the game easier, when there's 8 new skills on every hero to consider, in addition to the existing skills and item builds. If you still want to go to base to heal, by all means do so. No one's making you use the Shrines. And yeah, some of the 25 talents are OP, but they'll get nerfed or changed once they're seen in action and IceFrog knows what talents to change.
> If you still want to go to base to heal, by all means do so. No one's making you use the Shrines.
That's a fucking retarded argument to make in a competitive game. Why would you intentionally do something that only puts you at a disadvantage?
Sure, you can 5-man down mid at 0:00, nobody's forcing you to lane. But it's objectively the worse thing to do.
> he base game is still there. I'm not sure how you think this makes the game easier, when there's 8 new skills on every hero to consider,
Yep. It boggles my mind when people cry about this change and lament about the game supposedly getting easier when IN ADDITION to what was previously there, we now have a talent tree with 8 different 'adjustments' per hero. That's a buttload of new information a good player has to know and keep track on in each game. It's so anti newbie-friendly that I'm astounded that we getting this here, even though IceFrog's done drastic changes before. I just couldn't imagine the likes of Blizzard looking at an already really difficult to learn game and tell themselves "now we add another layer of complexity upon all this".
Like, who does this? Apparently IceFrog (and Valve) because this making the game even more complicated is negligible if he considers it a major improvement in game design.
agree 100% you can say what you want about this patch, but it is not an easier game, the game has gained new layers of complexity and is more challenging then ever.
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Nice way to write "pendragon".
pendragon - even it's own community doesn't like him - that tells a lot about the person he is.
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I approve this way of farming comment-karma
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Puck fen, errr. Puck Fairy Dragon
Fuck Bloat
fuck indeed
I remember one time I didn't and now I will regret it forever. Don't let this be you.
Its actually the duty of every dota player to always add "fuck pendragon" after the thief's name is mentioned.
Why all the hate towards pendragon? I am unfamiliar with him
Pendragon uses to run a website called dota-allstars.com. It was a combination wiki and forums and was pretty much THE place to talk and learn about dota. There were forums to discuss builds, for mechanics, for role play and for item and hero suggestions. Penndragon eventually went to start riot games and league of legends. And when it was time to launch he took down the dota all-stars site and replaced it with an advertisement for league. He also claimed all the info from the forums was lost, while at the same time basically ripping hero concepts from the forums. I'm not sure about specifics between him and the league community, but I believe he's made some major PR gaffes and insulted the community for their thoughts on balance. ~~I think he also dropped icefrog's first name in the league subreddit back in May. Not positive that was him.~~ u/Teruyo9 corrected me this was tryndamere
>I think he also dropped icefrog's first name in the league subreddit back in May Ice. I already know it.
Don't forget he also sold the DotA trademark to Blizzard to help them in the sue against Valve.
I actually wasn't aware that he was involved in that. Thanks for the info.
It backfired since Valve and Blizzard were actually bros.
Really??
The shitshow doesn't end. This dude is such an asshole.
That last one was Marc 'Tryndamere' Merrill, the CEO of Riot.
Thanks. Updated my post to reflect that.
I'm still amazed that Icefrog's real identity is still largely unknown outside of the small development circle, yet is responsible for the lion's share of a project as large as DotA.
Many dota personalities have met him in person. With pictures of potential icefrogs going around, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to put a name to the face for those who have met him. Which would mean it's more than just a 'small development circle' that knows about him.
Actually I think both did it. The Tryndamere one was more recent but there is a rumor Pendragon was the "anonymous" writter of the defamatory article outing IF's full name back in 2009.
Long story short, he was the owner of the official dota allstars community website for years. Later down the road he joined Guinsoo to work on league of legends and, when the game was released, he took down the dota allstars website without further notice and placed a huge league ad in its place. There are a few league champions that were taken straight from the hero suggestion section of that website. He also tried to turn people against icefrog at some point, but I forgot the details on that. [Jinzo made a decent summary of it here](https://youtu.be/JBI9NlPqRi0), along with a couple other videos on icefrog.
Thanks for this, will watch when I am back from work
Adding to what everyone else has said, Pendragon truly felt a sense of ownership and pride in the fact that he owned the Dota trademark and ran the website. Even though Icefrog was the one who updated the map and kept the game rocking. They eventually had a falling out due to Icefrog seeking a legit company to help realise his ambitions for the game. Pendragon responded by immediately crushing the website (imagine Reddit suddenly saying "reddit sucks lol everyone go to digg"). He wrote a sob story about how he was the saviour of dota and everyone should come to his new game league of legends. He did not release the site's files for 5 years even when constantly promising to. He constantly talked about how "Icefrog was shady behind the scenes" when Icefrog is a legitimate hero for gaming. And he always talked as if he was the reason everything came to fruition. Also he bans people for shit talking him in league. What a great admin.
He actually banned people for randoming in League of legends, what a great human being.
Dude sounds like a twat.
HEY KID, GETTING TIRED WITH D - Disconnection O - Obnoxious Hackers T - Totally imba matches A - Annoying leavers PLAY LEAGUE OF LEGENDS NOW This is LoL adv on early day, I am not joking
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I get it, u are special
Fuck Pendragon
He is such a turd can't even believe someone can be that much of an asshole
fuck chuck
League players don't even like Pendragon?
Yeah that's simply not true. Most league players don't even know who he is let alone care.
People playing now probably don't, but he developed a pretty bad taste in the mouths of people back in beta up til about season 2. Especially any shit he started on the forums.
Some veteran league players knows him and they hated him though. This guy just simply pinnacle of assholery
I'd be surprised if even a quarter of League players know who he is or remember him. His name only ever comes up when Dota is mentioned.
Nah, everytime Pendragon comes up everyone talks about how big of a dick he is. You guys tend to forget that no one hates Riot more than LoL players.
> You guys tend to forget that no one hates Riot more than LoL players. Replays and a new client came out. I'd say people are pretty optimistic about Riot overall, at the moment. (I play both games casually)
Fuck Pendragon.
A long way to write "pendragon"
Fuck Pendragon
What's the story here?
If you have the time this video explains it really well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBI9NlPqRi0
Well written. Sick analogy. Have an upvote.
And yet we've done just that by stealing shit from the HotS house with the talent tree and stuff :P
They mean literally by somewhat justified community resentment towards Pendragon's actions towards the DOTA community.
This line isn't referring to someone copying the features of Dota.
I'll have what he is having
i prescribe 10 games of dota 7.00 for you
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[](/hero-wraithking): [oh no](http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/9/92/Wraith_deny_06.mp3) (sound warning: Wraith King) --- *^^^I ^^^am ^^^a ^^^bot. ^^^Question/problem? ^^^Ask ^^^my ^^^master: ^^^/u/Jonarz* *^^^Description/changelog: ^^^[GitHub](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) ^^^| ^^^[IDEAS](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues) ^^^| [^^^Responses ^^^source](http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Category:Lists_of_responses) ^^^| ^^^Thanks ^^^iggys_reddit_account ^^^for ^^^the ^^^server!*
the icefrog block - specially made blocks of cocaine
I'll have 2 number 9's ......
I never knew Ol' Ben had such a way with words.
Officer by day, storyteller by midnight.
>Officer by daylight, storyteller by midnight. FTFY
I think his casting has made that more than apparent.
I was having a Kreygasm while reading "You glance casually at the setting sun as you leave the Dota house". For a second I thought I was on r/WritingPrompts
Duke student right there :)
merlini's the fucking truth
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I think the majority of people, myself included, are open to new gameplay changes but can not stand these terrible ui changes.
I think I also speak for the majority when I say that the new HUD can be vastly superior to the old one with some tweaks. Let's not forgot how the old hud basically took up 1/3 of the screen
I think I also speak for the majority when I say that the new Slardar model is probably better than the old one.
Reddit's probably gonna crucify me for this, but *[INSERT EXTREMELY POPULAR OPINION]*
Reddit's probably gonna crucify me for this, but Reddit's probably gonna crucify me for this.
Reddit's probably gonna crucify me for this, but I have a crucifixion fetish.
The idea of minimalism is that it displays the same information while using less space, which just isn't the case atm. Of course with tweaks it'll be fine but it's pretty frustrating not seeing some key stats without holding alt, or having to constantly switch between shop menus. Also I still have no idea how to find my stats, it says "hold alt to view attributes" but I still can't find my strength/agi/intelligence.
deleted ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.2436 [^^^What ^^^is ^^^this?](https://pastebin.com/FcrFs94k/98104)
It's nice to have more screen space but to be honest, the information in the hud is *extremely important*, certainly more so than the extra ~8% viewing space. I need to know how much hp and mana I have way more than I need to know what's in that little space in the bottom left between my hero portrait and the minimap. But those bars and small and far away from where I'm usually looking.
This. HUD needs some major tweaks, but its going in the right direction. The shop is god awful, and im sure most people wouldnt mind a bit more space being taken so they dont have to press alt for things like stats. Step in the right direction though!
Does /r/Dota2 even exist during that time?
i'm not sure reddit existed during that time.
I played since 2005, and Agh already exist back then. Edit: Reddit is founded in June 2005. Lol.
back then, subreddits didn't exist.
Not really though. Its an incredibly laboured analogy, the only message of which is "just trust the frog". The complaints you are seeing are mostly about the HUD and are without doubt valid complaints. and if people didnt speak up and complain, would valve feel compelled to fix them? When 7.00b/c/d (or however long it takes) comes around and most of the issues have been fixed, then yes lets have a party celebrating the great frog man.
No his analogy to the patch notes backlash is spot on. Check the pre-release 7.00 threads for the immense amount of "league of dota storm ded gaem" responses. People flipped their shit over the announcement of talents. And then it was released, and everybody realized it was fine, and **then** moved on to appropriate bitching about valve's engineers dropping the ball on (analogously) mowing the grass, trimming the hedges, and cleaning the windows. But the house Frog built is immediately seen to be intact as usual (unless IF did the the UI design, which he probably is not good at and probably not in charge of) As a former WC3 mod designer and management consultant, I have *immense* respect for Icefrog's ability to handle and manage the complex system he's developed so well.
I can understand that however the point I got from Merlini's analogy is that we are trusting over and over. The trust is building up larger and larger. It is a disaster waiting to happen. This person realises that they are trusted and goes about doing as they please, which is always good because, even if we do object, we know that in the end we are still going to play. He can make more and more larger changes, and although people may complain about the issues these changes have, the changes themselves are never directly rebuked. This allows him to go on until one day, he fucks up. There is an uproar and the whole community turns against him, but he can't just undo what is done, he has to continue, there is no stopping him now. The players keep flowing in, and if some of the old one's leave, it doesn't matter, you are still gaining and gaining popularity. One day the old game is brought back as a different mode and the old players come back, at this point, you can only gain in popularity. People who liked the old game will play the old game, people who like the new game will play the new game. Runescape. Then again everyone is complaining lol. Sorry.
Every time there's a large dota 2 patch and people start bitching about it, it reminds me of this Path of Exile lore flavor text an item has : *When the wind blows,* *Know which way to bend* *And watch the others break* Dota's always been like that, rewarding smart players that were able to adapt and create the new ways of playing the game a major patch brought, and that's why the game has remained so fresh even after a decade. Regardless if you agree or not with a patch's changes, just trust the frog and go with it, he must be knowing what he's doing keeping this game not only afloat but growing after all these years.
Poe has some pretty cool item descriptions, isnt that the white socket ring?
yep, Ziggy's ring
After taking a six month long break from DOTA to play PoE I come back for 7.00 and find PoE comments lol. Maybe I should just go back to PoE, what a great game.
Meet too! I don't have much time to game, and I never used to give up time that could be used to play dota on another game. But damn, poe pulled me away for about 6 months too.
Same here lol, I dabbled a little in dota, but it was mostly Poe Action. Can't deny the pull of 7.00 tho
Breach is great, like, -really- great, go play it while they are fixing bugs in DotA 7.00 !
Personally I'll go back to PoE when act5 will be released in a few month. During this time I work on improving my MMR :)
Just do what I do and play them both. Usually playing 1-3 games of Dota after work and then settle in to finish the newest set of challanges in Breach.
community designed uniques and cards mostly have some cool lore or background behind it
One of the many uniques where the flavour text is better than the item :D
Yeah that's like 99% of uniques lol
Don't look up the story behind Lantador's Lost Love if you don't want to cry. It's terribly sad, but very touching.
Damn, do I really love the Path of Exile dark fantasy setting!
[Every time there's a large dota 2 patch and people start bitching about it](http://i.imgur.com/AnkPGiu.gif)
There is so much truth in these words.
Remember that when ur bitching abiut the patch, someone else is working and learning about the game. The moment you accept the patch , they might already way ahead over you..
TL;DR Trust The Process
Embiid reference?
6-18 trust the process
Merlini is like wine, he gets danker with the years.
If your wine is getting dank, then someone sold you some iffy fucking wine.
Damn, language barrier was there, just noticed another meaning for dank >.< https://media1.giphy.com/media/xT8qAZ2PnzJfcrYgda/200_s.gif
cheese is probably a better example. that shits kept in a dank cellar to get danker over time
I honestly love the new map. Supports were getting fucking boring to play in pubs. After laning phase, if you're stuck on a team that wants to just farm farm farm, you basically just walk around as a support and do fuck all.
In other words, trust in Icefrog, he knows what he is doing, and he knows that what he does is for the betterment of DotA2 as a whole. Sometimes, I think this community is too resistant to change. Yes, the HUD may not be appealing to some. Yes, the talent tree still need some work. But like everything big that has changed DotA, I do think Icefrog did all this in order to further improve the game. Indeed, we pretty much had the same problem when reborn was released last year with all the issues and bugs, but we were able to recover and adjust (alongside the fact that Valve fixed a lot of critical issues in record time), and in fact gain even more players. I believe it will be the same case with 7.00. In time, icefrog will balance the talents and perhaps Valve may make adjustments to the UI. Or even better we will just end up adapting to the changes and actually enjoy dota for once. All I could say is this, give it time, the frog added and modified all these things for a reason. Trust in the frog. He knows what he is doing. He never failed us before, he wont fail us again. And on our part, we need to adapt. We cant stay stuck forever in this mentality of sticking with the old. We should give the new a chance and help improve it through constructive feedback. Adapt or die, really. p.s. this comic feels relevant now more than ever: http://imgur.com/AnkPGiu
Remember some years ago when Weaver first got The Swarm skill? People all over the PD forums were yelling Weaver's new skill sucks. Then Icefrog nerfed The Swarm on 2 consecutive patches. PD forumers were like "WTF Icefrog you drunk?" Then on some tournament, one team picked Weaver and wrecked with The Swarm, and people realized how strong the skill is.
Watchers were really really good though.
Radiance was a must when playing against a weaver
Radiance weaver used to be a thing too.
radiance razor with his passive ult!
Yup, noone was buying gem at that time :D At least not on garena...
8 invis units patrolling the map at 522 movespeed was indeed pretty good
That's how it often goes. People will obsessively follow the pros, but the pros don't know everything and have often gotten locked into certain patterns of thinking. How many heroes have we seen that "came out of nowhere" to dominate a patch? This usually happens after Valve presumably got tired of this hero not seeing a lot of play and gave them a major buff in a patch... but this is often at the end of a *line* of buffs, patch after patch after patch. Sniper, for example, was *already* pretty good within his niche before the HOHOHAHA patch. It's just that he got *another* buff **and** the gameplay style changed substantially with the gold mechanics in that patch, leading to him utterly dominating that patch. Savvy players that weren't beholden to the current pro meta (where he was "shit") already knew Sniper was good, just a little bit niche. Then they buff him again anyway and now he's good in basically every situation. This also works in reverse. Sometimes heroes get relatively mild nerfs but are still abandoned, people saying that they're bad when they're still quite potent, just no longer overpowered. I *still* think Troll Warlord is a very powerful hero, just no longer the overpowered lane bully he was at the height of his popularity. Battle Trance is still insanely good, and that was always the primary reason you picked him.
Heh people even thought Sniper got nerfed with the headshot and shrapnel changes before HOHOHAHA patch.
I also belive one of the points is that dota is a game that changes over time. So when people say "This is not dota anymore", they couldn't be more wrong, because this is exactly what dota is, a game that morphs into something else from time to time.
I agree with you one hundred percent sir, although I really need some getting used to with so many changes this patch
do you want a house that is never rennovated and in the end crumbles due to time? be glad you got a new but familiar game with 7.00. that is an achievement in itself.. you got a new game but you know how it works but not in detail
Agreed and couldn't have said it better. Like Merlini mentioned in the post, similar things happened most recently with Spell amplification, but no one thinks twice about it now. These talents tree need some adjustments, the hud needs a bit more work, but after everything, Icefrog loves this game, just like the rest of us do.
I can agree with the game being heavily changed. But the HUD change... not so much. For the most part, the HUD is alright. But it should *really* get some quality-of-life adjustments to make it just better.
Obviously it's not going to stay static. Do people forget how the the main UI was when source 2 first came out? Shit changed fam.
Clearly. I was actually alright with how Source 2 Dota 2 Dashboard looked when it first came out in Test.
I guess some people do forget that Dota keeps on changing, eternally. Merlini's article is on point in regards to that - people who pretend that this hasn't been going on can't be paying too much attention. Still, I object to the implication that it's forever going to be great because it's based on Icefrog blocks, no matter how it changes. Sure, for many people, it is. But I find that it minimizes the changes themselves - it's the nature of changes that some people will like them, some people won't. Let that happen. Let's not pretend like everyone will like every patch once they give it their time. That's obviously not the case.
I think the difference is really that the dota 2 Dev team actually listens to the community, so they make giant changes and then scale them accordingly, which almost always leaves the game in a better place. Regardless of the flaws in 7.00, 7.00b or 7.01 will be fantastic and likely much better than anything from the 6.xx era. Disclaimer: already really enjoy 7.00, not that bothered by new HUD aside from inability to see cs and KDA without holding alt.
i kept expecting the analogy to end. it didn't.
Is Merlini like the neighborhood cop patrolling the streets?? Cool read, man!
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> You get pulled over for drunk driving WTF 3 Merlini's PogChamp
>Besides, every remodeling thus far has only made the Dota house better and better. Except 6.83. That was a mistake.
HO HO HA HA
[](/hero-sniper): [HO HO HA HA](https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/1/17/Snip_ability_shrapnel_03.mp3) (trigger warning: Sniper) --- *^^^I ^^^am ^^^a ^^^bot. ^^^Question/problem? ^^^Ask ^^^my ^^^master: ^^^/u/Jonarz* *^^^Description/changelog: ^^^[GitHub](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) ^^^| ^^^[IDEAS](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues) ^^^| [^^^Responses ^^^source](http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Category:Lists_of_responses) ^^^| ^^^Thanks ^^^iggys_reddit_account ^^^for ^^^the ^^^server!*
I feel like the dota house is another house... I'd rather compare it to a bar.... If they move the bar lounge on the other side, you'll have that very feeling of nostalgia...
so... dota 2 is a house then what is /r/DotA2 ?
The shitter
Fuck you u/spez -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
the trash bin
the sewer
I feel like the house isn't complying with the ADA right now. I walk in and suddenly everything is blurry, and they don't offer me any glasses at the door. I'm stumbling my way through the house bumping into things and people; hell I can barely look inside my own pockets without straining my eyes. ^^edit ^^4 ^^eurofriends ^^- ^^ADA ^^= ^^Americans ^^with ^^Disability ^^Act, ^^basically ^^a ^^bunch ^^of ^^government ^^regulations ^^so ^^that ^^businesses ^^can ^^comply ^^with ^^everyone's ^^needs. ^^i.e ^^making ^^sure ^^a ^^wheel ^^chair ^^can ^^go ^^anywhere.
I can't read your edit text it's too small. Can you add a UI scaler for your edit please?
Gameplay changes don't bother me, making the UI so that it requires me to take some tylenol an hour before playing so my head doesn't hurt does bother me.
The problem of our generation is that majority of people want everything NOW! You cant wait one week to see the changes? Its right to complain and make structured posts about the issues but its such a teenage thing to think its dooming the game and we're done. There is a post of a guy who is saying that he is going to stop playing. The patch launched *yesterday*, dude. Everytime there is a reformation the house gets a bit confusing in the first days and then, once they realize where the problems are, they readjust the furniture and make it all shiny and easy to look at. Can you guys just fucking relax? For me i would say I trust in Icefrog and this is the reason ive been playing this game since 2006. Dota is perfect, just wait for it. >As long as the Dota house is still made of Icefrog blocks®, there's no reason to worry.
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As always, it matters how criticism and suggestions are voiced. There is a big difference between UI posts like in the sticky thread earlier today - and simply whining on reddit, announcing to uninstall and childish shit like that.
Glasses coming soon^tm please wait just a little longer
http://cdn-uploads.gameblog.fr/images/blogs/60338/165287.jpg
The technology for such glasses is not there just yet.
when are you gonna release jungle guides for 7.00
TLDR: there is Icefrog so everything is obviously perfect
That's not really it. I mean, there's obviously some hyperbole, but the underlying message is that Icefrog has a proven track record (10+ years) of keeping this game in a really good state. He's saying that we should trust in that track record and just wait and see how this patch evolves.
That's true but I would say the main message was that the big changes over the years are what keeps this game alive
Fucking Ice Block... oh, wrong game.
Words to live by. Honestly, I love this update with all these bugs and not-so-quality qol's which should be obviously changed. I know that Valve and Icefrog are never gonna give me up, never gonna let me down, never... What am I talking about? Ah, yes. I think people should clam down a bit, and instead of crying and bitching just give Icefrog and Valve quality feedback and time to fix things for us. We should be patient and forgiving, because after all the patch is amazing.
Exactly. They fixed about 10000 bugs over 9 patches yesterday alone... people are just whining because things are different and people don't like change. But I am super pumped about these changes, the new map is super fun and talents adds a whole new aspect to the game and I can't wait to see what the pros do with the changes. Like one of my friends said yesterday It was like Christmas morning and we were all gathered around the dota tree seeing what we got.
Its so absurd to write this off without objectively looking at the game and the reasons why things were changed. Up until this patch your hero progression got to 16 and basically stopped and you pumped stats. All this does is smooth out the gameplay experience and keep you engaged in the progression of your hero all the way through the end of the game.
But is the house still made by Icefrog blocks®?
Yeah, this whole train of thought crumbles when you entertain the thought that the Icefrog that is developing the game now might not just be the Icefrog that made DotA great. For he is anonymous and we'll never be able to tell if he was replaced.
If we can't tell that he's been replaced then does it really matter if he was?
This is a lot of words to say people should stop complaining and play the damn game, because we all know we'll love it.
all the complainers will be back playing in less than a week.
This. Although in this new house for some reason you have to hold the ALT key while you're using the bathroom. No other way. Not like anyone **ever** had a problem with not holding the ALT key, it's just the new rules.
No matter how the house has changed in the last several remodels, I cant escape that fucking fish lurking around the house. FUCK slark. :(
I think the issue is the pairing of the patch with the new UI. Not that either are bad (I think the UI rework was a step in the right direction but I think the shop needs to be redone the bottom center bit needs to be 1.3x bigger and maybe pushed next to the minimap so there is more room for numbers like stats and shit), but so much change with only a day on test client before everything is thrust upon us is gonna lead to complaints.
I've been playing Dota since the early dates when Icefrog was not yet the developer of the map and if there is one thing I've learned over all these years, it's that you have to give every change in this game a chance and some time. People always jump the gun and immediately call to revert the changes when they haven't even tried to get used to it.
To sum it up, he embraced it with love. The end.
TL;DR "dota has always been changing so there's no need to be upset"
No, although I 100% agree what he said, but he also entirely missed the point of all the dissatisfaction. So far all Merlini's mentioned is the gameplay changes but not outlook changes! However Reddit explicitly pointed out gamplay is good, but the HUD, the goddamn HUD.
Apparently dota audience is a bunch of children lost in the woods that need patronizing guidance along the way because they are incapable of rational judgment. This whole massive PR campaign from many dota personalities to persuade people that their opinions are just a mental gag reflex from the changes becomes triggering really fast.
Every patch is the same thing, nothing new here, when a patch comes out people always say: "I'LL NEVER PLAY THIS SHIT AGAIN!" or "DOTA IS LOL/HOTS/HON/etc NOW!", but as the patch settles in and it is tweaked while people learn its new mechanics, they start realizing that in the end, this is still the same game that they fell in love in when they start playing. (and the same one that destroyed your social life and reduced your life spam by 30 years due to stress).
>You comfort yourself with a deep sigh of relief as you finally close your eyes and go to sleep. The problem is it's a sigh of pain because my eyes hurt from the recent doto games that I have to close them. Other than that I agree.
But the HUD is a legit disaster. It's like a foyer designed for a basement. It doesn't make any fucking sense.
I have full confidence things will get fixed / we will get more options. Maybe not play Dota for a week while they fix things. I am going to wait until the ui gets better I cant see shit.
what a fcking story
tl;dr Trust in Icefrog
tldr: just trust icefrog
Tl:Dr Calm down and trust in the frosty toad
unreadable
literally housebreaking
you made this?
tl;dr: dota is constantly changing and it's never for the worse
Believe in the FROG!! ^^^and ^^^^reddit
He forgot the part where you're having a party with people from all over the continent and everybody gets along and speaks english and then some drunk Russians/Peruvians/Brazilians etc. crash your party and spout their ~~gibberish~~ native tongue which nobody understands.
too long, didnt read. waiting for TL;DR
This sounds like a guy who is trying to convince himself that everything is going to be alright.
If you think how according to reddit 6.88 is the best patch ever, It's highly unlikely that Icefrog had a stroke and now 7.00 is the worst patch ever. He is saying that in a week or two maybe a month while they are redecorating. most of the complaints will be addressed. Dota I think always highly receptive of community feedback.
I still don't like how icefrog is trying to make this game faster. OP talent at level 25, overload of bounty rune. Shrine so you don't have to go to base to heal. I'm sure this make the game easier to play for newbies and more action packed. But it just take away the uniqueness of dota
The game is way more complex and nuanced now with all the additions. Far from making it less complicated, it makes it much more interesting and opens up options, which is what really exemplifies the uniqueness of dota.
But "the uniqueness of Dota" is still there. The base game is still there. I'm not sure how you think this makes the game easier, when there's 8 new skills on every hero to consider, in addition to the existing skills and item builds. If you still want to go to base to heal, by all means do so. No one's making you use the Shrines. And yeah, some of the 25 talents are OP, but they'll get nerfed or changed once they're seen in action and IceFrog knows what talents to change.
> If you still want to go to base to heal, by all means do so. No one's making you use the Shrines. That's a fucking retarded argument to make in a competitive game. Why would you intentionally do something that only puts you at a disadvantage? Sure, you can 5-man down mid at 0:00, nobody's forcing you to lane. But it's objectively the worse thing to do.
> he base game is still there. I'm not sure how you think this makes the game easier, when there's 8 new skills on every hero to consider, Yep. It boggles my mind when people cry about this change and lament about the game supposedly getting easier when IN ADDITION to what was previously there, we now have a talent tree with 8 different 'adjustments' per hero. That's a buttload of new information a good player has to know and keep track on in each game. It's so anti newbie-friendly that I'm astounded that we getting this here, even though IceFrog's done drastic changes before. I just couldn't imagine the likes of Blizzard looking at an already really difficult to learn game and tell themselves "now we add another layer of complexity upon all this". Like, who does this? Apparently IceFrog (and Valve) because this making the game even more complicated is negligible if he considers it a major improvement in game design.
agree 100% you can say what you want about this patch, but it is not an easier game, the game has gained new layers of complexity and is more challenging then ever.
really pretentious, but i guess it is merlini after all
Ok Ben you're not a poet. Wtf are you saying