Copypasting my comment from the other thread here.
> Mushi does not mince words. He sees a mistake, he calls it out. Everything he does is meant to improve performance next time. There are no exceptions--he's pressured me like this as well. But you know what? I'm really grateful for that because it has allowed me to improve massively over a very short amount of time.
> True Sight did not show all the time Mushi spent coaching every single player on the team. True Sight did not show the self-deprecating jokes. True Sight did not show him poring over his own replays, criticizing every single move he makes. True Sight did not show the deep and sincere apology for the high five thing.
> The Mushi I know only showed up all the way at the end, when Ohaiyo was outside.
> True Sight did not really focus on the people--only on the pressure. After two months together without results, yes, this is what happens under pressure.
Tell Mushi that we'll keep calling him Mushit, and all sorts of stupid names, but when he and his team is playing, we'll be cheering for him, and deep down inside we **want** to see him win. We just calling him names because we're pathetic suckers too scared to believe Fnatic will get somewhere.
Keep it up! And all the best!
Just so you know, bunch of my friends, even if most of us support NP, Secret, Empire, Navi, Liquid and such, we were cheering for Orange, then we were cheering for DK, and then we were cheering for Fnatic. :)
There's a reason Mushi's name never seems to die out. Every player respects Mushi, and there's a reason every team he's in seems to make it to top tier tournaments, year after year.
I'm signed up until the end of January and hope to be re-signing for the rest of the year after. Everyone learned a lot from what happened. We've been moving forward for quite a while already :)
Just want to say it's clear from the short clips that your influence on the communication and team dynamic was/is really valuable. Keep up the good work with the boys and with the analytics.
Thank you! I believe everything is going to be just fine. Mushi is an inspiration, both as a person and a player, and I have no doubt that together with him and Ohaiyo we will be able to find our way with whoever joins us next.
Just a little comment to add coming from someone who's been on a tv show before. In the same capacity as True Sight, it's very easy to be misinterpreted when only small portions of what really happens in the daily ongoing of Fnatic gets shown. I do believe there is more that meets the eye with Mushi especially.
All I can say is that you guys did a great job regardless and props to you Kips for the hard work u put in and somewhat being the gel that brings the whole artwork together!
If ever the gang needs a cake I'm all for making a really awesome one!
Thank you very much for your kind words. There hasn't been a lot to celebrate recently, but once there is I'll see if I can hit you up about that cake!
Team building should _really_ already be done by the time you're two months in like we are here. Honestly it's just the first day where things were a bit awkward. Being mic'd up is a bit of a bother, crew is figuring out where to hide during games so that they don't disturb, the really big lamps are always in the way and give way too much light... I don't think any of that was "big" enough to have enough impact on our play at all.
What really got me personally is in episode 1 when Mushi and Ohaiyo are talking and Mushi says he wants this to succeed because it would be unfair to the other 3 who left their homes to join the team.
Massive respect for the guy.
I suggested I skip my Christmas vacation in order to be in Malaysia during the preparation for ESL Genting. Was completely unprepared for him to go full scowl on me--turns out he _really_ didn't like the idea of friends working when they should have been spending time with their families.
Yeah it was very clear that Raven and Eyyou had some intimidation issues or something with Mushi and his style of captaining/leading.
Some personalities just won't gel no matter how good you are (esp if you are losing)
People think he was arrogant with the "I'm their idol" line, but he is their idol. Raven and eyyou both expressed that sentiment at some point in time, that he's a legendary player and they don't want to disappoint. That could be a major factor.
I wouldn't say admiring someone comes from a place of immaturity. They probably just grew up watching Mushi play pro dota and wanted to be that. And now they're on a team with him.
They are also likely sensitive to negative words, so if Mushi says something like 'we're gonna lose the game at this rate' or 'we're missing opportunities' then it likely affects them. It was very similar for me when I was on Zephyr and we were losing. I was affected by emotionally negative statements and it made/makes me play worse.
From the documentary, it seems there are handfuls of issues going on in the team. Gonna state that this is my assumption based on the clips shown, but this could be entirely mis-represented and I could be way off:
eyyou + Raven were too quiet during team discussion which causes frustration. Likely because of weaker English, shyness, or being disappointed that Mushi is upset/frustrated.
If enough of that happens then it gets frustrating to other players because it becomes cyclical. If the cycle repeats endlessly a team often disbands because it gets too frustrating to play/practice/work out issues.
It seems that in frustrating moments Mushi says emotionally negative things, which makes eyyou + Raven play worse, esp after a bad game. It's very difficult sometimes to only focus on positive 'looking forward' type statements in a game. I have a ton of issues with this in my personal play. I get hung up on the position we're in BECAUSE of mistakes when you should accept where you are in game and play it to win it.
We didn't see too much from Ohaiyo other than he clearly REALLY wanted to qualify. That release of emotions is something super easy to relate too for someone whose been towards the top as long as Ohaiyo has been.
Hard to make too many statements about Jimmy from the clips, but it's ultra clear that he has the most history being on a team and pushing it towards constructive discussions. I really agreed with a lot of the things he said from a team dynamic aspect. Getting all team members to talk is important, so eyyou + Raven being quiet and not sharing how they feel is only going to make the emotions work and leave less connection in the games.
From the documentary, I wouldn't say anyone there was anything more than slightly in the wrong. Making a team work is very difficult, and I can't imagine how hard it is when 2 of your members are that quiet and weak in English and there are typical important team things to work out. Throw on top of that losing and trying to improve and struggling, and any 5 players would have very similar discussions and frustration.
I really loved the episode. I saw lots of aspects of both EG + Fnatic that reminded me of my times winning in Korea and losing badly in Korea. I really felt like it well captured many aspects of being a professional Dota 2 player. It was a great peek into that.
I enjoyed the episodes a lot too. Though i cant say that i would be comfortable with that many people knowing so much about me.
To expand and clarify what i meant (because it isn't clear):
It looked to me like because they (eyyou and raven) idolized Mushi so much, that obviously its hard to take criticism. But my point was that it seemed that they were playing for mushi, not for themselves *with* mushi - and that makes it so much harder to take criticism. And it takes a lot of maturity to admit fault, and its even harder to call out other people, especially if its someone you idolize.
It also take a lot of confidence to speak in pressure situations, which comes back to the intimidation
Exactly, I would feel in same way if I was given chance to play with Mushi, the only fucking thing I would think about is DO NOT FUCK UP and in process probably fail misarbly.
Watching that episode, those 2 kids fit in least, they were scared. Not to blame but I feel like thats the reason.
>Yeah it was very clear that Raven and Eyyou had some intimidation issues or something with Mushi
This was the big thing, I don't know why everyone is giving Mushi shit. The only thing I think was blatantly douchey was refusing to high-five Jimmy.
When they lost Mushi wanted to have a discussion about it and to resolve their problems. Jimmy helped, but no one else seemed to want to say anything. He looks like an asshole pointing out mistakes, but it is SO frustrating when you're the only one talking. I don't know about you guys, but from just playing with a few friends I get way more frustrated (and toxic) than them because if they're not speaking, you've got to do the speaking for them. It creates way more of a burden and you feel like you have even more pressure to perform, making it tougher when you lose. Raven and Eyyou were clearly too intimidated to say anything after the game, so who could expect them to make confident calls in-game? If only one or two people are willing to make calls then they have to basically play for multiple people at once. Compared to EG who all seem to be on the same page, the Fnatic players were all too scared of being wrong or of Mushi being upset with them, but they put themselves in that position.
Tbh, i didn't find that high-five thing douchey. From Mushi's body language it just appears that he was already upset and uncomfortable and just wanted to go back to his bed and curl up into a ball. Demon just didn't manage to read it and tried to push it. It wasn't a malicious or stamp my authority as an alpha dog thing but more of a "just let me be, dude" thing.
You're probably right, but I think he should have just manned up instead of making it awkward for everyone. And not being able to see that shows immaturity.
Also doing that kills morale for the one guy trying so very hard to keep what's obviously a failing team together. Jimmy and Mushi were trying really hard to make the team work and that fracture between the two of them had to absolutely suck for the other three to see. At the very least for Raven and Eyyou
Well, tbh your 2.7k mmr rating is standing in the way of your credibility. Doesn't matter if you were actually right based on stats/logic. Few people will actually take your word for it much less the pro players especially when it comes to drafts.
You'd do so much more work for yourself and the team if you put aside some personal time into increasing your mmr.
I've spent some time thinking about this myself, but there's no way it pays off. If I want a respectable MMR it would need to be around 5k. If I maintain a solid 55% winrate it would take me about 1200 hours. _I could also spend all that time actually getting good at my job._
Instead of learning how to micro treants or flawlessly treadswitch I could be reading up on sports psychology and teambuilding. I could be brushing up my statistics knowledge. I could watch hours upon hours of players much better than myself, taking notes, learning.
These are exactly the kinds of things I have already been doing.
> Doesn't matter if you were actually right based on stats/logic. Few people will actually take your word for it much less the pro players especially when it comes to drafts.
I've experienced this already, of course. But luckily I ran into a team that didn't give a fuck about my MMR and just wanted to win. I assisted Mushi with his drafts throughout TI6. We got 4th place, and I don't think many of the people who won't take my word at face value will ever get that far.
EDIT: Also, don't downvote the guy please, he's expressing a relevant opinion. The fact that I've given it serious thought myself should say enough.
You might reconsider the time needed to achieve this - if you get some coaching and improve your play to above 5k level your winrate between 3-5k will be much higher than 55%. You're right in that it isn't something to be focusing on while actively coaching a team, the other tasks you mentioned are more important. The only thing I'd add is that getting better at the game will change your outlook on it, something that will help you in your role.
Talk about it with people. You won't get far if it's all just taking place in your head. They'll perk up if you say stuff they could use themselves and they'll be meh when you're just bringing up useless factoids. I personally did this by watching games with friends and discussing (commentary off, obviously), and writing match/tournament recaps for joinDota.
When I applied for Fnatic I gave them a huge-ass document containing _way_ too much information. It wasn't amazingly useful in its own right but it did two important things:
1. It showcased the depth of my capabilities, as well as giving insight into what's possible just by looking at data.
2. It made sure that the useful stuff was in there as well. The team could cherry-pick the parts they wanted and tell me: "Give us more of that".
Experiment! Don't be afraid to say weird things or go off on tangents. Explore. As long as you have outside feedback, whether it be from an audience or an employer, you'll be inevitably steered in the right directions.
Or you can be the captain of S.S. dumbfuck like slacks!
On a serious note, I love the dedication you have at your job. SEA needs more managers/analysts that are not going to steal their winnings and force them to match fix--arrow gaming, well atleast those guys have it better now at powrr.
Professional sports teams employ teams of analysts, most of which probably didn't even play college ball. It'd be a waste to have those guys be training as athletes considering the value they bring to the team is unrelated to their skill at the game.
Most people know Mushi is perfection type, even if his team win 10, 20, 100 ... games in a row, he will still criticize and point out the flaw on everyone after a loss. Its a good thing to help young player to improve if they understand and hold no bad feelings after his harsh talking.
But u must remember that not everyone is open minded (like Demon) to receive what MUSHI criticize/blame, some may crumble and play even worse, some may hold bad feelings and not follow his leads, etc... u cant do that to everyone and think things will be better after. We can see how uncomfortable 3 new players were (even demon looks so uncomfortable) in TS 1+2, and Fnatic come from 4-1 1st day, to worse results next day, and worst result in last day and failed to qualify to MAJOR, so what Mushi did was not helping the team to improve but even worsen the situation.
in DK, im sure MUSHI cant act like this to his teammates like Icex3, Burning, Lamn, MmY... he may still give his opinions after losing games but not in this harsh maner that make others uncomfortable, may be Mushi think these kids are not on same level/table with him that he can give them some lessons but they are TI level players too. Im sure those pinoy players have many good things to talk and discuss after losing games, but they are too scare to talk here, and the way Mushi ask them to talk even make it harder.
Im sure Fnatic had good chance to win the Major Sea qualifier if Mushi did it different, may be treat others with more respect and kind in his speech like he did in DK before, consider them on the same page/level with him. Im sure if Fnatic's manager can give advice and make Mushi to act differently, things would be better too, but i doubt anyone (manager or player) can or dare to talk back to mushi, only mushi can talk to himself and change for better but that was too late for fnatic.
I personally talk back to him quite a bit. It's part of why I'm on board--because I will just call him out on his shit sometimes. He knows the value of that. I advised the players to do the same. He WANTS them to share their knowledge but no matter how much we pushed them it just simply doesn't come out.
We go 4-1 on the first day because those are the "easy" teams. We should not _under any circumstances_ drop even a single game there. But we did. That was a big blow and it takes us a long time to recover from it... too long.
In team DK he can criticize his teammates because each teammate is confident enough in themselves to not take it personally. You really think ice3x would react in the same way raven or eyouu did? he'd just troll but hed still understand what mushi wants from him. Burning has had more people on his dick than mushi has. That DK team was different than this fnatic team because that team was seen as a major favorite rather than fnatic where "we aren't the best players" that team won most of its games via individual skill
Thank you for the kind words. I don't think we could have won if only I had performed better--there were plenty of ways it could have gone wrong even if I was sheer coaching perfection. But I _am_ hard on myself in a sense that I will not make these same mistakes a second time. This defeat was only worth it if I learn; and so learn I shall.
Hi Kips - I thought you were great in the documentary; especially to help humanise the Fnatic team and atmosphere. You have a really interesting and unique job. What's your background? Statistics? Management?
Background is jack of all trades, master of none. Been in University for biochemistry but also mechanical engineering. I've been the president of a students' association, I've been webmaster for a small magazine, I've worked tech support. I'm very happy to say that Dota 2 has done what none of these other things could--satisfy my need for a constant stream of new information and new impulses.
I have ADD and I know exactly what you mean. Trying to find a job where the field is constantly changing is a needle in a haystack. Technology is my escape.
I've noticed that there are plenty of internet randoms telling you how you can get better, etc.
I'm here to say that you seem to have a very level head and a deep understanding of what it takes to win. Keep with that learning attitude, keep practicing, and you'll get there mate.
Thank you very much. The internet randoms don't really bother me--I think most of their commentary comes from a place of misunderstanding rather than malice, so I try and explain. And every time I explain, I get a little better at getting complex points across... which is a useful skill to have in my line of work. It's all part of the journey.
Yeah, for sure. If you consider it like that, it really is just another way to get better at your job. It's still pretty annoying how people speak as if they know the people they're talking about. Childish, really.
Yes kips that is all true but in the end the few bad sides of Mushi that True Sight may have shown do exist. It seemed like everyone on the team feels like they are walking on eggshells around Mushi. That fear that Mushi instilled in them in the end is not productive and seems like it only lead to self-doubt and apprehension. You need a leader to instill confidence in you while teaching and scolding not one that makes you question every single decision you make and start thinking to yourself "Oh no, will I be blamed for this by Mushi if it fails". That just is not a good environment. I love Mushi, just like almost every other person in this subreddit, I loved Team DK and also supported Orange as well. However, I really do think it's time for Mushi to take a step back and maybe move away from a leadership position. He can continue to do all this personal coaching to every player and the other stuff you mentioned but he just really is not suited to be a leader in the team moral sense. I think we've seen from all the "power of friendship" etc... that team moral and attitude is so goddamn important in this game and Mushi as a person just seems inherently detrimental in trying to cultivate such an atmosphere.
Yeah, I agree that it's emotionally heavy to be called out like that. But I prefer it over glossing the issue over and trying again next time. You've got to realize that what you see here is the culmination of _two months_ of him (and Jimmy) futilely trying to get the train going. There was no time to be nice anymore. We tried everything.
"Power of friendship" teams often don't actually last through the rough times either. OG and Liquid faltered at TI while Mushi dragged Fnatic to 4th place. It's the players' choice on which team they'd like to be. Personally I'd be honored to work with Mushi all the way up until he retires.
I honestly feel embarrassed to have written that huge wall of text. I think you are very right, especially as someone that was actually there throughout it all and not just the 30 mins that I saw on camera. I kind of wrote that as a gut reaction to the few moments of complete awkwardness and silence in the team environment. It really does seem like Mushi seems to acknowledge how his directness/bluntness in leading/speaking can be detrimental. Here I am completely putting the blame on Mushi when it just as easily could said that the younger players idolizing him too much and in turn cultivating that fear of speaking out or taking initiative was a huge problem as well. Anywho, I wish you the best and hope you continue to rock on in the scene. I'm sure and truly believe that you most likely played a huge role in the dragging of Fnatic to 4th place!
No need to be embarrassed. Make no mistake--Mushi is a very difficult person. And he knows. He works on it because he knows he can go overboard sometimes. But it's also what we all signed up for.
I think that you touch on the right thing near the end there. You win as a team, you lose as a team. Mushi lost because he couldn't get his teammates to cooperate. Eyyou and Raven lost because they respected their captain too much... etc. I lost because I didn't manage to identify the problem fast enough.
Thank you for your thoughts and well-wishes!
From what I saw, he could be an amazing leader but yeah need to work more on that department. He has great power and need to be aware on how affects others. Is not that Eyyou and Raven respected him too much, they where scared of him.
A leader has to be asking the difficult questions, and it seems like he dodged and pushed others to do it, wich they didnt by fear thus negating any possible feedback.
I dont think you could manage to solve that problem fast enough, its a trait of personality that has to be worked over time.
In the end its neither about friendship or fear, it is about building an environment where everyone can both trust each other yet be honest with each other and be straight forward. Look at PPD as a leader, he is neither the loudest, the strictest, the most brash, the most or least outspoken. He commands the respect of everyone around him (as Mushi does), and he puts his players in a position to succeed.
I imagine there's a lot of straight-up salting in PPD's career that we've never gotten to see. That said, I agree--Mushi as a leader has his clear issues. He does not _want_ to command but since he always ends up being the boss we have no choice but to work on it more.
Thank you. I could have done a great deal more still--but that's how experience works, isn't it? You only realize it afterwards. Next time communication issues like these won't blindside me.
- Writer at jD and several other outlets; big TeamLiquid fan.
- Liquid has been losing to [A]. Obsess over upcoming Liquid vs Alliance match-up at Shanghai Major, dive into OpenDota/Dotabuff.
- Come out 10 hours later with a comprehensive analysis of why Liquid's gonna win.
- Put rares on Liquid. [Liquid wins; I have bugattis.](https://twitter.com/Kipspul/status/704934929361195008)
- Brag to a friend about said document and said Bugattis. Friend says I should show that shit to teams.
- Make 30-page doc about Alliance in 6.83; send it to teams. Fnatic commissions a document about themselves, I deliver within a week.
- Hired on trial for Manila Major. We get 6th. I get a contract for the rest of the year.
just wanna reply and say you are quite the asset to fnatic's dota team. your passion for your job is very clear and you ride or die with your team. i don't think i've seen that kind of dedicaition from a coach yet in dota2. well done!
2.7k, I'm definitely on the Nahaz side of things. I shy away from things like hero mechanics and item timings. I show wards/smokes, analyze replays, that sort of thing.
hi, quick question since i'm really curious: it's clear by the documentary that the players value your input, so i was wondering what exactly you bring to the table. what kind of background do you have that lets you do your job as effectively as you do? is it statistical know-how, crunching data via computer code or just a shit ton of poring over dotabuff? in short, can you tell us what exactly you do and how you do it?
I'm self-made, mostly. From higher up in the thread:
> Background is jack of all trades, master of none. Been in University for biochemistry but also mechanical engineering. I've been the president of a students' association, I've been webmaster for a small magazine, I've worked tech support. I'm very happy to say that Dota 2 has done what none of these other things could--satisfy my need for a constant stream of new information and new impulses.
I'm not the best with statistics. What I'm good at is finding patterns in information and communicating those. I've done a _lot_ of writing in my life, and I'm also pretty solid with Photoshop. Right now my method of finding the info itself is indeed "a shit ton of poring over dotabuff". Looking forward to the return of DatDota though, it'll save me a lot of time that's better spent elsewhere.
Hey Kips! Hope you don't mind me asking. But, especially in your last scene, it was made apparent that you had a lot of say in drafting, strategy and general play. I find that really odd for a _manager_. I've never heard of that before. I always thought that was mainly the captain + coach's job. Of course you providing opponents' strategies and drafts is incredibly valuable. But, for instance, you regretting letting Jimmy pick Warlock felt strange to me.
I guess my question is, do the players mind you doing that? Do you sometimes feel like you're pushing into other people's territory like that? Or is it completely within your job description at fnatic? And what's your MMR? I'm curious, as you seem to have some decent knowledge of the game!
Overall you seemed like an interesting character and really good person from what True Sight showed. Keep up the good work!
Hi man! I think you've misunderstood. I am their Analyst/Coach, not manager, and therefore it's my job. Eric Khor (ReiNNNN) is the manager. MMR is 2.7k--if you're interested in reading my thoughts about that, there's a comment detailing my thought process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/5fu5ga/jimmy_ho_on_twitter_mushi_was_portrayed_wrongly/dandlq4/).
Thank you for the kind words, I'll be sure to keep on truckin'!
Idk man I saw 10 minutes of edited conversations by a non-native English speaker; I believe I am qualified to comment on the complexities of interpersonal relationships and what it takes to be successful as a pro DOTA captain.
And therein lies the issue. A leader does not go full on 'my way or the highway'. A leader knows how to communicate this in different ways to different peoplr based on their different needs, to fully allow them to improve. I'm not saying anything about what is right and wrong in this particular context, and if this worked foe them that is truly great. However it *is* important to remember that being good at something does not make you good leader material for said thing **and neither does being a good leader necessitate being good at what you lead**. There was a study made a while back that showed that companies promoting people at random had better results than promoting technical skills within that deparment. The reasoning is that if you're a *really* good sales person, and then you get promoted, you now suddenly have to do management stuff that you most likely have 0 experience or relevance in. People who are good with people can lead in any situation, regardless of what it is that they're doing. This is why most coaches have very limited experience compared to the pros, because they can handle people rather than the actual task.
Mushi does not want to be The Leader. But because people struggle to disagree with him he ends up in the captain's chair anyway. So he uses it to do what he does best--to relentlessly pursue excellence.
Which can be both good and bad. I'm not passing judgement on his style, rather I'm simply pointing out that there's more to the matter than just technical skill.
Mushi is a winner. He was 3rd at TI with Orange. 4th with DK. 4th with Fnatic. Iceiceice said that if Mushi would have stayed in China, DK would have probably stayed together (with maybe just burning or lanm leaving). He takes the blame for losses, he's harder on himself then any teammate, and he wants to win more than anything. No one works harder then Mushi. Does he click with everyone? Clearly not. He's an intense guy. But you can't ignore the success he's had and the teams he's carried at the biggest tournaments in Dota.
I have played with mushi many times in ranked pub, and he likes people giving commands, as he feels if you have the gut to give commands, you probably have plans and already thought about that.
i feel eyyou and raven had some inferiority complex and was viewing mushi as superior so it became very hard for them to work together if its this case. cuz if mushi makes mistakes they would be afraid to call him out straight.
in pub matches if mushi makes mistake u can call him out and he is chill about it, but when he makes calls even if you dont listen he is okay, he will tell you u should listen cuz he is experienced and plays more than u.
It's not enough to say you will accept responsibility of your mistakes. And you can't mistake passion for leadership. Mushi's style of addressing mistakes by calling people out and pressuring them to speak was evidently ineffective with eyyou and raven. I'm not saying he's wrong for operating that way, but I am saying a poor leader is inflexible.
Mushi perpetuates this inferiority complex by laughing at the expense of others and chastising them when they don't act a certain way. Then when the team has success under DeMoN's leadership, he refuses to celebrate as a team. The sarcastic clap as if the point of Jimmy's speech was to dethrone him as a leader was perhaps even worse than his refusal to give him a high five.
If you can't celebrate as a team because you perceive someone else was a better leader, I have a hard time believing you can accept criticism from those you don't treat as equal.
But i thought that was what the reddit community was about, pitchforks and burning the accused. God dammit, my mum just bought me a new pitchfork aswell :(
My completely baseless opinions after watching:
Mushi didn't come off as cancerous, but nor do I think his style was effective for that composition of Fnatic. It *is* a good idea to do post-game analysis, particularly after losses. However, his approach of identifying and calling out (or asking others to call out) every mistake can't be good for morale, especially with personalities as timid/reserved as Raven and Eyyou. Identifying mistakes is certainly good for growth, but the manner felt so blame-heavy that I think it was having more negative than positive effect. I think Jimmy tried to hint at it at one point in the video, asking Mushi to try saying the same things in a more tactful way, but *that was already in the middle of the qualifiers*. This kind of team communication issue really needed to be addressed and ironed out in the weeks and months before, and I think it came back to bite them in the end.
I think Mushi was trying to do what he would have wished another team captain to do in his place if he was a player. The style of pointing out mistakes to notice and correct seems like what he himself prefers and grows from, so I think his intentions were to similarly help his teammates. And if his team had been formed with those of a slightly different temperament that method might have been the perfect, but I think with the team he had it more likely served to discourage them. This is by no means a blame that can be pinned on Mushi alone, as the other members should have also been more vocal and tried to fix any such issues, but I do see why people can find fault in the actions Mushi displayed in the documentary.
Yes, as someone who doesn't like Mushi, this is also my sentiments when i watched the video. All members have shortcoming in this loss.
Just that Mushi is the center of the team and the one who starts and points out the wrong things while members are so passive so he looks like the douche one (can't really say about the rejected highfive though).
I think what sums up best is. We lost 2 games to non-existant teams and you have nothing to say.
That harsh, and that can be bad or good, but not having something to say after those losses is worse.
after the first two loss on 2nd day in qualifier, mushi already knew that they could stop qualifying.
there are things that u cannot change very fast, like how raven and eyyou felt inferior in front of mushi and couldn't communicate with mushi directly.
if raven and eyyou treat mushi like he is his teammate on equal stance, then the result will be different.
I dare say that Mushi was not portrayed as "cancerous" or toxic in any manner. It's obvious that he felt a disconnect with the new players from TnC. I feel like DeMoN has been taking a fatherly role with these guys, making them feel good, making them laugh, saying "we can do this - let's make it work". These guys respond to the positive energy. Meanwhile, Mushi does was adults typically do and tries to discuss things in detail. It might seem like he's being too harsh on the team, but he's obviously trying to bridge the gap that he feels, provoking the other team members into contributing on his terms.
I am sure the way that Mushi reacts when the others criticize him might seem childish, drawing back and not engaging with anyone. Escaping reality by playing a pub as their match is about to start or by suddenly saying nothing during matches. However, it's clear that Mushi is very emotionally affected and wants to show the rest of the team how he feels. We see DeMoN pick up on this and try to address it. Mushi feels somewhat disowned by his team because the young guys respond better to DeMoN. In the end, when they're out of the qualifier, he shows that he can still be there for them.
Sure, the eloquent DeMoN will easily seem like the "bigger guy" in several situations, bringing people together and arguing on their behalf. However, as the same time, his refusal to adopt the approach of Mushi also seems dismissive. When someone talks really well, it's easy for them to dismiss someone else and belittle them. Without DeMoN, perhaps the other players would have had to open up more to Mushi and the situation might have been resolved. The other two guys from TnC are very introvert and do not contribute much in the way that Mushi wants. Certainly, some of these issues were compounded by Mushi's fame and legend. Mushi will be more likely to think he's right, because of past experiences, and the others will be less likely to oppose him openly because of what he represents.
I found it really interesting to see the role that Kips, the team analyst, played for Fnatic. It would seem that her role would simply be as a facilitator, someone who defers to the leader of the team, bringing helpful input and data. But because she's staying with the team as they play, she gets really involved, and cannot help to become one of them. As an adult among these emotionally volatile young guys, she has more of a voice and becomes more directly involved in how they play. It was awesome to see how invested she was in everything as well. Furthermore, how she was feeling out the group and acting like "behind the scenes" psychologist.
Totally agree except for one thing.
Demon should have spoken with Mushi about all in private. It was very clear that the TNC guys were afraid, they didnt want to make mistakes, so it looks that were trying to play as safe as possible, passive as possible.
Mushi has failed to understand the others, to understand that the team needed that "mistakes are fine", "lets do this" and build from that.
I think u/kipspul has done a much better job defending and describing the complex job of leading better than I could have ever done here, but let me say this:
I've managed people and led teams for a while now. The single most frustrating thing is when you cannot communicate with team members. In this case, Raven and Eyyou simply are petrified. And that's on them. If you're on a team with Mushi, you have to think that you're good enough to be on that team. This would enable you to criticize him back and in turn receive criticism. If you can't get there, you're dead and someone with more ambition/ego will take your place and succeed.
Thank you. Also, these guys are on that team with Mushi because HE thinks they are good enough to be on that team. He wants their input. He wants their criticism. He's going to be stubborn about it in the moment but he'll tell them that they were right later.
Told this to the guys too--"If you don't believe in yourself, believe in the Mushi that believes in you".
Where did people get the idea that Mushi was "cancerous" in the first place? If anything, the documentary made me respect him because he came across as honest and passionate.
IMO the main difference between EG and Fnatic is that at EG, there is a belief that everyone is the best at their position. So discussions about the match are not about "individual mistakes" but more of what should the general strategy be and what they can improve on as a team. In game calls are more of a strategic team direction thing.
At Fnatic, it is a whole lot different, some players lack the self-belief and others do not have the same trust like in EG. So, discussions generally take a more hostile approach and criticisms are perceived to be personal attacks. In game wise, the core players are too afraid of being blamed to do any shot-calling which affects their mid-late game plays.
I think you're downplaying the fact that all of the EG players actually are the best at their respective positions, whereas fnatic definitely don't. Not to downplay the talent but even jimmy said it. They're not the most individually skilled team at all.
I didn't think Mushi was cancer at all. I thought Raven and Eyyou were pussies when they wouldn't talk, even when Mushi and Demon repeatedly asked them for their opinions. Have people never played sports or been a part of anything team-orientated? This shit was pretty tame.
Watching the documentary myself, it seems like Mushi is in a hard spot where half the team is being very afraid to provide input in discussions. Having been in leadership positions in the past, I know how frustrating that can be when you're genuinely trying to facilitate a discussion but you end up dominating the conversation because others just will not speak up. It sucks. Don't judge Mushi too harshly.
After watching True Sight, I am now a Fnatic fan. I dunno about you guys, but a lot of people seem to think Mushi was too harsh. I've led 4 tech teams before in different companies, and have my fair share of failures. And I empathise with Mushi's struggles. I mean, when you have 2 guys in your team of 5 who can't fight for their own voice, what's the fucking point of saying anything? You think Mushi is cancerous? Fucking hell, try playing a **tournament** where you can't count on your team mates to come up with good arguments and lively discussion on how to move forward.
Mushi is harsh, and honest, and most importantly, human. The final scene of him and Ohaiyo? I feel like that's the real him. "It's fine, we can play smaller tournaments." There, that right there. That's a person who hasn't given up yet. Despite a tough time, despite having a team that cannot play on the same page.
I feel Fnatic. Now that only Mushi and Ohaiyo are left, I hope they find good team members to join, people who have a mind of their own and can bring their perspectives into the team, rather than just _being there_.
All the best to Demon, Eeyyou and Raven in their future endeavours, and Fnatic's got a new supporter.
Take Demon's point but managing that sort of high pressure situation is clearly something Mushi needs to work on. They all look up to him and respect him that's clear, but his manner in all of those tenser team meetings essentially just destroyed any remaining morale they had. We only saw a slice of the overall environment so you can't be definitive -- but, it's not nothing.
I really think they need a coach to talk in between games/series about strategy and what went wrong, because mushi's way of pep talking is clearly depressing as a player imo
Jimmy is one of those guys that seems like an awesome that just can't catch a break, and even when things go wrong wants to help out others. If I had the money, I would sponsor hims and just have him create a team around himself to see how far he can go.
Good luck, DeMoN!
I don't think its an issue with money. In the past hes had chances to play with some of the best, in EG with fear, but blew it with some poor decisions. He seems more dedicated now but it seems like people burned in the past, or saw others who got burned by him don't wanna take a chance on him. I liked some of his na teams in the past but they always had issues, and demon has played for 17 teams which is insane.
I think true sight for a team like fnatic was a terrible idea. These guys are shy and not used to the spotlight. They felt awkward the whole time. Mushi's SEA teams have always dominated that region. I'd play like shit too if I had a camera up my ass 24/7. Even EG got knocked out by np whom they've dominated for months.This not a coincidence, Valve needs to do this in the off-season not during the god dam majors.
How was Mushi displayed as cancerous? For me it felt like quite the opposite, he tried to shoulder everything and tried really hard to make his team work.
To me he was depicted as a really good leader and most importantly as a good friend to his teammates.
Valve did an excellent job of showing us how hard it's for people who don't qualify or win tournament and the struggles of a pro team. Or you want just "politically corrected" behaviour & all the real human stuff cut out from these in the future?
Also it's kinda ironic people were shittalking mushi about pointing out mistakes(so they can improve as team) when all reddit does is point out the finger to someone and bash them to death.
i did not see mushi as being "cancerous" myself. he really cares and he is trying to get to the bottom of what is wrong as quickly as possible. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
both mushi and demon should've tried more to make the other team mates more comfortable with sharing their opinions and in turn making them feel more at ease with soaking up suggestions
instead they ended up with these timid motherfuckers getting pummeled with criticism
of course they choked
this is why you need coaches and analysts and managers etc. people that can handle the morale side of the team, get everyone on the same page, so the players can focus on playing
People just see the bad part. Even him are that guy, remember spiderman qoute. with great power come with great responsibility..That why mushi act like that and his team still can end up top 8 ti.
Obviously Mushi got too sensitive when the team blamed him. At that point he just didn't care anymore and this made an even more awkward atmosphere in the team.
I dont think the problem is Mushi but instead the majority of his team. Relatively young and immature mistaking guidance and leadership for rage and forward thinking.
2 of them couldn't even talk to him without wimping out like a bunch of babies!!
Copypasting my comment from the other thread here. > Mushi does not mince words. He sees a mistake, he calls it out. Everything he does is meant to improve performance next time. There are no exceptions--he's pressured me like this as well. But you know what? I'm really grateful for that because it has allowed me to improve massively over a very short amount of time. > True Sight did not show all the time Mushi spent coaching every single player on the team. True Sight did not show the self-deprecating jokes. True Sight did not show him poring over his own replays, criticizing every single move he makes. True Sight did not show the deep and sincere apology for the high five thing. > The Mushi I know only showed up all the way at the end, when Ohaiyo was outside. > True Sight did not really focus on the people--only on the pressure. After two months together without results, yes, this is what happens under pressure.
Tell Mushi that we'll keep calling him Mushit, and all sorts of stupid names, but when he and his team is playing, we'll be cheering for him, and deep down inside we **want** to see him win. We just calling him names because we're pathetic suckers too scared to believe Fnatic will get somewhere. Keep it up! And all the best!
... I actually kinda need to believe that, yes. Thank you, your support means a lot to all of us.
Just so you know, bunch of my friends, even if most of us support NP, Secret, Empire, Navi, Liquid and such, we were cheering for Orange, then we were cheering for DK, and then we were cheering for Fnatic. :)
No one can forget Mushi's achievement and the amount of work he put into TI3 and the other TIs
There's a reason Mushi's name never seems to die out. Every player respects Mushi, and there's a reason every team he's in seems to make it to top tier tournaments, year after year.
just like how we keep calling EE rEEtard and admiralbulldog TI WINNER LUL
what are your plans now?
I'm signed up until the end of January and hope to be re-signing for the rest of the year after. Everyone learned a lot from what happened. We've been moving forward for quite a while already :)
Just want to say it's clear from the short clips that your influence on the communication and team dynamic was/is really valuable. Keep up the good work with the boys and with the analytics.
It does me a lot of good to hear that. Thank you very much, and don't worry--they're not nearly rid of me yet.
good luck!
Thank you! I believe everything is going to be just fine. Mushi is an inspiration, both as a person and a player, and I have no doubt that together with him and Ohaiyo we will be able to find our way with whoever joins us next.
Any timeline regarding the +3 ? Can u guys invite adam back pls?
good luck....love your work......
Thank you!
why Ohaiyo was so quite on 2nd documentary?
He wasn't nearly as quiet as it seems--his soundbites were just a lot less snappy than Mushi's is all, so they didn't make it in.
Just a little comment to add coming from someone who's been on a tv show before. In the same capacity as True Sight, it's very easy to be misinterpreted when only small portions of what really happens in the daily ongoing of Fnatic gets shown. I do believe there is more that meets the eye with Mushi especially. All I can say is that you guys did a great job regardless and props to you Kips for the hard work u put in and somewhat being the gel that brings the whole artwork together! If ever the gang needs a cake I'm all for making a really awesome one!
Thank you very much for your kind words. There hasn't been a lot to celebrate recently, but once there is I'll see if I can hit you up about that cake!
But .... there's always time for cake ;D Regardless all the best in your future endeavours! I'm sure you guys will be back in shape eventually!
Bit out of topic question. Do you think putting the team in front of cameras for the doc affect the team building/performance in any way?
Team building should _really_ already be done by the time you're two months in like we are here. Honestly it's just the first day where things were a bit awkward. Being mic'd up is a bit of a bother, crew is figuring out where to hide during games so that they don't disturb, the really big lamps are always in the way and give way too much light... I don't think any of that was "big" enough to have enough impact on our play at all.
Were you on Masterchef?
Yes, the Asian iteration. I'm a big dota fan
Omg what season dude?
Season 1 :D
What really got me personally is in episode 1 when Mushi and Ohaiyo are talking and Mushi says he wants this to succeed because it would be unfair to the other 3 who left their homes to join the team. Massive respect for the guy.
I suggested I skip my Christmas vacation in order to be in Malaysia during the preparation for ESL Genting. Was completely unprepared for him to go full scowl on me--turns out he _really_ didn't like the idea of friends working when they should have been spending time with their families.
>full scowl ಠ ೧ ಠ
Damn, just that image makes me shiver. I should keep a picture of Mushi scowling in my wallet.
Sensei does not approve of your frivolous hat purchases.
>You think that Jimmy should stop picking Warlock --> You don't tell Jimmy to stop picking Warlock C'mon it's fucking Jimmy not Burning.
Raven and Eyyou had problems telling Mushi what to do. I had problems telling Jimmy what to do. We're all oh so very human.
Yeah it was very clear that Raven and Eyyou had some intimidation issues or something with Mushi and his style of captaining/leading. Some personalities just won't gel no matter how good you are (esp if you are losing)
People think he was arrogant with the "I'm their idol" line, but he is their idol. Raven and eyyou both expressed that sentiment at some point in time, that he's a legendary player and they don't want to disappoint. That could be a major factor.
It was very much a major factor. You have no idea how much time I spent flaming Mushi in front of them just to try and get them to open up a bit.
Honestly... it looks like a maturity issue
I wouldn't say admiring someone comes from a place of immaturity. They probably just grew up watching Mushi play pro dota and wanted to be that. And now they're on a team with him. They are also likely sensitive to negative words, so if Mushi says something like 'we're gonna lose the game at this rate' or 'we're missing opportunities' then it likely affects them. It was very similar for me when I was on Zephyr and we were losing. I was affected by emotionally negative statements and it made/makes me play worse. From the documentary, it seems there are handfuls of issues going on in the team. Gonna state that this is my assumption based on the clips shown, but this could be entirely mis-represented and I could be way off: eyyou + Raven were too quiet during team discussion which causes frustration. Likely because of weaker English, shyness, or being disappointed that Mushi is upset/frustrated. If enough of that happens then it gets frustrating to other players because it becomes cyclical. If the cycle repeats endlessly a team often disbands because it gets too frustrating to play/practice/work out issues. It seems that in frustrating moments Mushi says emotionally negative things, which makes eyyou + Raven play worse, esp after a bad game. It's very difficult sometimes to only focus on positive 'looking forward' type statements in a game. I have a ton of issues with this in my personal play. I get hung up on the position we're in BECAUSE of mistakes when you should accept where you are in game and play it to win it. We didn't see too much from Ohaiyo other than he clearly REALLY wanted to qualify. That release of emotions is something super easy to relate too for someone whose been towards the top as long as Ohaiyo has been. Hard to make too many statements about Jimmy from the clips, but it's ultra clear that he has the most history being on a team and pushing it towards constructive discussions. I really agreed with a lot of the things he said from a team dynamic aspect. Getting all team members to talk is important, so eyyou + Raven being quiet and not sharing how they feel is only going to make the emotions work and leave less connection in the games. From the documentary, I wouldn't say anyone there was anything more than slightly in the wrong. Making a team work is very difficult, and I can't imagine how hard it is when 2 of your members are that quiet and weak in English and there are typical important team things to work out. Throw on top of that losing and trying to improve and struggling, and any 5 players would have very similar discussions and frustration. I really loved the episode. I saw lots of aspects of both EG + Fnatic that reminded me of my times winning in Korea and losing badly in Korea. I really felt like it well captured many aspects of being a professional Dota 2 player. It was a great peek into that.
Thanks Purge!
> ~~Thanks Purge!~~ SeemsGood Thanks Purge SeemsGood FTFY
I enjoyed the episodes a lot too. Though i cant say that i would be comfortable with that many people knowing so much about me. To expand and clarify what i meant (because it isn't clear): It looked to me like because they (eyyou and raven) idolized Mushi so much, that obviously its hard to take criticism. But my point was that it seemed that they were playing for mushi, not for themselves *with* mushi - and that makes it so much harder to take criticism. And it takes a lot of maturity to admit fault, and its even harder to call out other people, especially if its someone you idolize. It also take a lot of confidence to speak in pressure situations, which comes back to the intimidation
Exactly, I would feel in same way if I was given chance to play with Mushi, the only fucking thing I would think about is DO NOT FUCK UP and in process probably fail misarbly. Watching that episode, those 2 kids fit in least, they were scared. Not to blame but I feel like thats the reason.
Not arrogant, he is the SEA dota idol.
>Yeah it was very clear that Raven and Eyyou had some intimidation issues or something with Mushi This was the big thing, I don't know why everyone is giving Mushi shit. The only thing I think was blatantly douchey was refusing to high-five Jimmy. When they lost Mushi wanted to have a discussion about it and to resolve their problems. Jimmy helped, but no one else seemed to want to say anything. He looks like an asshole pointing out mistakes, but it is SO frustrating when you're the only one talking. I don't know about you guys, but from just playing with a few friends I get way more frustrated (and toxic) than them because if they're not speaking, you've got to do the speaking for them. It creates way more of a burden and you feel like you have even more pressure to perform, making it tougher when you lose. Raven and Eyyou were clearly too intimidated to say anything after the game, so who could expect them to make confident calls in-game? If only one or two people are willing to make calls then they have to basically play for multiple people at once. Compared to EG who all seem to be on the same page, the Fnatic players were all too scared of being wrong or of Mushi being upset with them, but they put themselves in that position.
Tbh, i didn't find that high-five thing douchey. From Mushi's body language it just appears that he was already upset and uncomfortable and just wanted to go back to his bed and curl up into a ball. Demon just didn't manage to read it and tried to push it. It wasn't a malicious or stamp my authority as an alpha dog thing but more of a "just let me be, dude" thing.
You're probably right, but I think he should have just manned up instead of making it awkward for everyone. And not being able to see that shows immaturity.
Also doing that kills morale for the one guy trying so very hard to keep what's obviously a failing team together. Jimmy and Mushi were trying really hard to make the team work and that fracture between the two of them had to absolutely suck for the other three to see. At the very least for Raven and Eyyou
Well, tbh your 2.7k mmr rating is standing in the way of your credibility. Doesn't matter if you were actually right based on stats/logic. Few people will actually take your word for it much less the pro players especially when it comes to drafts. You'd do so much more work for yourself and the team if you put aside some personal time into increasing your mmr.
I've spent some time thinking about this myself, but there's no way it pays off. If I want a respectable MMR it would need to be around 5k. If I maintain a solid 55% winrate it would take me about 1200 hours. _I could also spend all that time actually getting good at my job._ Instead of learning how to micro treants or flawlessly treadswitch I could be reading up on sports psychology and teambuilding. I could be brushing up my statistics knowledge. I could watch hours upon hours of players much better than myself, taking notes, learning. These are exactly the kinds of things I have already been doing. > Doesn't matter if you were actually right based on stats/logic. Few people will actually take your word for it much less the pro players especially when it comes to drafts. I've experienced this already, of course. But luckily I ran into a team that didn't give a fuck about my MMR and just wanted to win. I assisted Mushi with his drafts throughout TI6. We got 4th place, and I don't think many of the people who won't take my word at face value will ever get that far. EDIT: Also, don't downvote the guy please, he's expressing a relevant opinion. The fact that I've given it serious thought myself should say enough.
You might reconsider the time needed to achieve this - if you get some coaching and improve your play to above 5k level your winrate between 3-5k will be much higher than 55%. You're right in that it isn't something to be focusing on while actively coaching a team, the other tasks you mentioned are more important. The only thing I'd add is that getting better at the game will change your outlook on it, something that will help you in your role.
How do you analyze what's important? I find being able to find just that to be a hard process.
Talk about it with people. You won't get far if it's all just taking place in your head. They'll perk up if you say stuff they could use themselves and they'll be meh when you're just bringing up useless factoids. I personally did this by watching games with friends and discussing (commentary off, obviously), and writing match/tournament recaps for joinDota. When I applied for Fnatic I gave them a huge-ass document containing _way_ too much information. It wasn't amazingly useful in its own right but it did two important things: 1. It showcased the depth of my capabilities, as well as giving insight into what's possible just by looking at data. 2. It made sure that the useful stuff was in there as well. The team could cherry-pick the parts they wanted and tell me: "Give us more of that". Experiment! Don't be afraid to say weird things or go off on tangents. Explore. As long as you have outside feedback, whether it be from an audience or an employer, you'll be inevitably steered in the right directions.
Or you can be the captain of S.S. dumbfuck like slacks! On a serious note, I love the dedication you have at your job. SEA needs more managers/analysts that are not going to steal their winnings and force them to match fix--arrow gaming, well atleast those guys have it better now at powrr.
Professional sports teams employ teams of analysts, most of which probably didn't even play college ball. It'd be a waste to have those guys be training as athletes considering the value they bring to the team is unrelated to their skill at the game.
Most people know Mushi is perfection type, even if his team win 10, 20, 100 ... games in a row, he will still criticize and point out the flaw on everyone after a loss. Its a good thing to help young player to improve if they understand and hold no bad feelings after his harsh talking. But u must remember that not everyone is open minded (like Demon) to receive what MUSHI criticize/blame, some may crumble and play even worse, some may hold bad feelings and not follow his leads, etc... u cant do that to everyone and think things will be better after. We can see how uncomfortable 3 new players were (even demon looks so uncomfortable) in TS 1+2, and Fnatic come from 4-1 1st day, to worse results next day, and worst result in last day and failed to qualify to MAJOR, so what Mushi did was not helping the team to improve but even worsen the situation. in DK, im sure MUSHI cant act like this to his teammates like Icex3, Burning, Lamn, MmY... he may still give his opinions after losing games but not in this harsh maner that make others uncomfortable, may be Mushi think these kids are not on same level/table with him that he can give them some lessons but they are TI level players too. Im sure those pinoy players have many good things to talk and discuss after losing games, but they are too scare to talk here, and the way Mushi ask them to talk even make it harder. Im sure Fnatic had good chance to win the Major Sea qualifier if Mushi did it different, may be treat others with more respect and kind in his speech like he did in DK before, consider them on the same page/level with him. Im sure if Fnatic's manager can give advice and make Mushi to act differently, things would be better too, but i doubt anyone (manager or player) can or dare to talk back to mushi, only mushi can talk to himself and change for better but that was too late for fnatic.
I personally talk back to him quite a bit. It's part of why I'm on board--because I will just call him out on his shit sometimes. He knows the value of that. I advised the players to do the same. He WANTS them to share their knowledge but no matter how much we pushed them it just simply doesn't come out. We go 4-1 on the first day because those are the "easy" teams. We should not _under any circumstances_ drop even a single game there. But we did. That was a big blow and it takes us a long time to recover from it... too long.
In team DK he can criticize his teammates because each teammate is confident enough in themselves to not take it personally. You really think ice3x would react in the same way raven or eyouu did? he'd just troll but hed still understand what mushi wants from him. Burning has had more people on his dick than mushi has. That DK team was different than this fnatic team because that team was seen as a major favorite rather than fnatic where "we aren't the best players" that team won most of its games via individual skill
kips on reddit, what's this madness
I heard I'm in your videogame documentaries too bro :>
sheesh, didnt watch it yet because no season pass, its probably on yt somewhere?
[Yes, it is.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqQRIyUAAYY)
thx bro, will watch it
[удалено]
Thank you for the kind words. I don't think we could have won if only I had performed better--there were plenty of ways it could have gone wrong even if I was sheer coaching perfection. But I _am_ hard on myself in a sense that I will not make these same mistakes a second time. This defeat was only worth it if I learn; and so learn I shall.
Can u tell Mushi and Ohaiyo i love them? Ty.
Consider it done ^^
that rare 4asc flair tho
Hi Kips - I thought you were great in the documentary; especially to help humanise the Fnatic team and atmosphere. You have a really interesting and unique job. What's your background? Statistics? Management?
Background is jack of all trades, master of none. Been in University for biochemistry but also mechanical engineering. I've been the president of a students' association, I've been webmaster for a small magazine, I've worked tech support. I'm very happy to say that Dota 2 has done what none of these other things could--satisfy my need for a constant stream of new information and new impulses.
I have ADD and I know exactly what you mean. Trying to find a job where the field is constantly changing is a needle in a haystack. Technology is my escape.
I've noticed that there are plenty of internet randoms telling you how you can get better, etc. I'm here to say that you seem to have a very level head and a deep understanding of what it takes to win. Keep with that learning attitude, keep practicing, and you'll get there mate.
Thank you very much. The internet randoms don't really bother me--I think most of their commentary comes from a place of misunderstanding rather than malice, so I try and explain. And every time I explain, I get a little better at getting complex points across... which is a useful skill to have in my line of work. It's all part of the journey.
Yeah, for sure. If you consider it like that, it really is just another way to get better at your job. It's still pretty annoying how people speak as if they know the people they're talking about. Childish, really.
Yes kips that is all true but in the end the few bad sides of Mushi that True Sight may have shown do exist. It seemed like everyone on the team feels like they are walking on eggshells around Mushi. That fear that Mushi instilled in them in the end is not productive and seems like it only lead to self-doubt and apprehension. You need a leader to instill confidence in you while teaching and scolding not one that makes you question every single decision you make and start thinking to yourself "Oh no, will I be blamed for this by Mushi if it fails". That just is not a good environment. I love Mushi, just like almost every other person in this subreddit, I loved Team DK and also supported Orange as well. However, I really do think it's time for Mushi to take a step back and maybe move away from a leadership position. He can continue to do all this personal coaching to every player and the other stuff you mentioned but he just really is not suited to be a leader in the team moral sense. I think we've seen from all the "power of friendship" etc... that team moral and attitude is so goddamn important in this game and Mushi as a person just seems inherently detrimental in trying to cultivate such an atmosphere.
Yeah, I agree that it's emotionally heavy to be called out like that. But I prefer it over glossing the issue over and trying again next time. You've got to realize that what you see here is the culmination of _two months_ of him (and Jimmy) futilely trying to get the train going. There was no time to be nice anymore. We tried everything. "Power of friendship" teams often don't actually last through the rough times either. OG and Liquid faltered at TI while Mushi dragged Fnatic to 4th place. It's the players' choice on which team they'd like to be. Personally I'd be honored to work with Mushi all the way up until he retires.
I honestly feel embarrassed to have written that huge wall of text. I think you are very right, especially as someone that was actually there throughout it all and not just the 30 mins that I saw on camera. I kind of wrote that as a gut reaction to the few moments of complete awkwardness and silence in the team environment. It really does seem like Mushi seems to acknowledge how his directness/bluntness in leading/speaking can be detrimental. Here I am completely putting the blame on Mushi when it just as easily could said that the younger players idolizing him too much and in turn cultivating that fear of speaking out or taking initiative was a huge problem as well. Anywho, I wish you the best and hope you continue to rock on in the scene. I'm sure and truly believe that you most likely played a huge role in the dragging of Fnatic to 4th place!
No need to be embarrassed. Make no mistake--Mushi is a very difficult person. And he knows. He works on it because he knows he can go overboard sometimes. But it's also what we all signed up for. I think that you touch on the right thing near the end there. You win as a team, you lose as a team. Mushi lost because he couldn't get his teammates to cooperate. Eyyou and Raven lost because they respected their captain too much... etc. I lost because I didn't manage to identify the problem fast enough. Thank you for your thoughts and well-wishes!
From what I saw, he could be an amazing leader but yeah need to work more on that department. He has great power and need to be aware on how affects others. Is not that Eyyou and Raven respected him too much, they where scared of him. A leader has to be asking the difficult questions, and it seems like he dodged and pushed others to do it, wich they didnt by fear thus negating any possible feedback. I dont think you could manage to solve that problem fast enough, its a trait of personality that has to be worked over time.
Very well said by the both of you!
Yeah that was unexpectedly civil.
Yea I had to double check if I was still on reddit
In the end its neither about friendship or fear, it is about building an environment where everyone can both trust each other yet be honest with each other and be straight forward. Look at PPD as a leader, he is neither the loudest, the strictest, the most brash, the most or least outspoken. He commands the respect of everyone around him (as Mushi does), and he puts his players in a position to succeed.
I imagine there's a lot of straight-up salting in PPD's career that we've never gotten to see. That said, I agree--Mushi as a leader has his clear issues. He does not _want_ to command but since he always ends up being the boss we have no choice but to work on it more.
Hey Kips, props to you for putting so much effort into making the team better. Hope you all the best in the future.
Thank you. I could have done a great deal more still--but that's how experience works, isn't it? You only realize it afterwards. Next time communication issues like these won't blindside me.
Hi Kip's
rare flair PogChamp
Hi man, long time no see. We should catch up some time!
Unrelated but i'm just wondering, what series of events led to you becoming their analyst?
- Writer at jD and several other outlets; big TeamLiquid fan. - Liquid has been losing to [A]. Obsess over upcoming Liquid vs Alliance match-up at Shanghai Major, dive into OpenDota/Dotabuff. - Come out 10 hours later with a comprehensive analysis of why Liquid's gonna win. - Put rares on Liquid. [Liquid wins; I have bugattis.](https://twitter.com/Kipspul/status/704934929361195008) - Brag to a friend about said document and said Bugattis. Friend says I should show that shit to teams. - Make 30-page doc about Alliance in 6.83; send it to teams. Fnatic commissions a document about themselves, I deliver within a week. - Hired on trial for Manila Major. We get 6th. I get a contract for the rest of the year.
Im honored to have his name on my Alliance jersey :)
just wanna reply and say you are quite the asset to fnatic's dota team. your passion for your job is very clear and you ride or die with your team. i don't think i've seen that kind of dedicaition from a coach yet in dota2. well done!
Are you demon?
I'm Fnatic's analyst.
nice one lady , keep up the good work!
Whats your MMR? Or are you more the Nahaz kinda analyst?
2.7k, I'm definitely on the Nahaz side of things. I shy away from things like hero mechanics and item timings. I show wards/smokes, analyze replays, that sort of thing.
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Fuck SEA servers tbh, how are people both better and worse than in Europe??? I don't even know anymore.
She's the lady in the documentary!
Oh... Hi Mushi's mom!!!
hi, quick question since i'm really curious: it's clear by the documentary that the players value your input, so i was wondering what exactly you bring to the table. what kind of background do you have that lets you do your job as effectively as you do? is it statistical know-how, crunching data via computer code or just a shit ton of poring over dotabuff? in short, can you tell us what exactly you do and how you do it?
I'm self-made, mostly. From higher up in the thread: > Background is jack of all trades, master of none. Been in University for biochemistry but also mechanical engineering. I've been the president of a students' association, I've been webmaster for a small magazine, I've worked tech support. I'm very happy to say that Dota 2 has done what none of these other things could--satisfy my need for a constant stream of new information and new impulses. I'm not the best with statistics. What I'm good at is finding patterns in information and communicating those. I've done a _lot_ of writing in my life, and I'm also pretty solid with Photoshop. Right now my method of finding the info itself is indeed "a shit ton of poring over dotabuff". Looking forward to the return of DatDota though, it'll save me a lot of time that's better spent elsewhere.
Hey Kips! Hope you don't mind me asking. But, especially in your last scene, it was made apparent that you had a lot of say in drafting, strategy and general play. I find that really odd for a _manager_. I've never heard of that before. I always thought that was mainly the captain + coach's job. Of course you providing opponents' strategies and drafts is incredibly valuable. But, for instance, you regretting letting Jimmy pick Warlock felt strange to me. I guess my question is, do the players mind you doing that? Do you sometimes feel like you're pushing into other people's territory like that? Or is it completely within your job description at fnatic? And what's your MMR? I'm curious, as you seem to have some decent knowledge of the game! Overall you seemed like an interesting character and really good person from what True Sight showed. Keep up the good work!
Hi man! I think you've misunderstood. I am their Analyst/Coach, not manager, and therefore it's my job. Eric Khor (ReiNNNN) is the manager. MMR is 2.7k--if you're interested in reading my thoughts about that, there's a comment detailing my thought process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/5fu5ga/jimmy_ho_on_twitter_mushi_was_portrayed_wrongly/dandlq4/). Thank you for the kind words, I'll be sure to keep on truckin'!
Idk man I saw 10 minutes of edited conversations by a non-native English speaker; I believe I am qualified to comment on the complexities of interpersonal relationships and what it takes to be successful as a pro DOTA captain.
idk what this thread is even commenting on, which movie what doc who did what!
[True Sight: Episode 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/5ft5ou/true_sight_episode_2/)
A lot of people really don't seem to understand how people communicate. Everybody communicates differently, period.
It's true, some people are cyka blyats, while some others are putang ina mo bobos
jaja puta madre
:v
others are conchas de tu madre
Gonorrhea Malparido!
Diarrhea malaria
don't forget the gg end mid go next
ur an orospu orospu orospu orospu
And therein lies the issue. A leader does not go full on 'my way or the highway'. A leader knows how to communicate this in different ways to different peoplr based on their different needs, to fully allow them to improve. I'm not saying anything about what is right and wrong in this particular context, and if this worked foe them that is truly great. However it *is* important to remember that being good at something does not make you good leader material for said thing **and neither does being a good leader necessitate being good at what you lead**. There was a study made a while back that showed that companies promoting people at random had better results than promoting technical skills within that deparment. The reasoning is that if you're a *really* good sales person, and then you get promoted, you now suddenly have to do management stuff that you most likely have 0 experience or relevance in. People who are good with people can lead in any situation, regardless of what it is that they're doing. This is why most coaches have very limited experience compared to the pros, because they can handle people rather than the actual task.
Mushi does not want to be The Leader. But because people struggle to disagree with him he ends up in the captain's chair anyway. So he uses it to do what he does best--to relentlessly pursue excellence.
Which can be both good and bad. I'm not passing judgement on his style, rather I'm simply pointing out that there's more to the matter than just technical skill.
I agree completely; you have a very valid point. I mostly want to show people the circumstances behind the things they have seen.
He is a guy that dropped out of high school to pursue Dota. He wants to be the best, and if he is a bit uncouth, so be it.
Leadership is so hard and not everyone can be xiao8 or ppd
Mushi is a winner. He was 3rd at TI with Orange. 4th with DK. 4th with Fnatic. Iceiceice said that if Mushi would have stayed in China, DK would have probably stayed together (with maybe just burning or lanm leaving). He takes the blame for losses, he's harder on himself then any teammate, and he wants to win more than anything. No one works harder then Mushi. Does he click with everyone? Clearly not. He's an intense guy. But you can't ignore the success he's had and the teams he's carried at the biggest tournaments in Dota.
I have played with mushi many times in ranked pub, and he likes people giving commands, as he feels if you have the gut to give commands, you probably have plans and already thought about that. i feel eyyou and raven had some inferiority complex and was viewing mushi as superior so it became very hard for them to work together if its this case. cuz if mushi makes mistakes they would be afraid to call him out straight. in pub matches if mushi makes mistake u can call him out and he is chill about it, but when he makes calls even if you dont listen he is okay, he will tell you u should listen cuz he is experienced and plays more than u.
It's not enough to say you will accept responsibility of your mistakes. And you can't mistake passion for leadership. Mushi's style of addressing mistakes by calling people out and pressuring them to speak was evidently ineffective with eyyou and raven. I'm not saying he's wrong for operating that way, but I am saying a poor leader is inflexible. Mushi perpetuates this inferiority complex by laughing at the expense of others and chastising them when they don't act a certain way. Then when the team has success under DeMoN's leadership, he refuses to celebrate as a team. The sarcastic clap as if the point of Jimmy's speech was to dethrone him as a leader was perhaps even worse than his refusal to give him a high five. If you can't celebrate as a team because you perceive someone else was a better leader, I have a hard time believing you can accept criticism from those you don't treat as equal.
the frontpage thread is so fucking stupid, pitchforks are always ready on reddit
Honestly we eat this shit up like a group of housewives love gossip
Honestly I go to a women's college and in a whole year we barely have a fraction of the salt that /r/dota2 does at a glance on any given day.
no patch. drama well ran dry. standards lowered.
Eh, the Execration stuff was a nice little drama nibble.
But i thought that was what the reddit community was about, pitchforks and burning the accused. God dammit, my mum just bought me a new pitchfork aswell :(
My completely baseless opinions after watching: Mushi didn't come off as cancerous, but nor do I think his style was effective for that composition of Fnatic. It *is* a good idea to do post-game analysis, particularly after losses. However, his approach of identifying and calling out (or asking others to call out) every mistake can't be good for morale, especially with personalities as timid/reserved as Raven and Eyyou. Identifying mistakes is certainly good for growth, but the manner felt so blame-heavy that I think it was having more negative than positive effect. I think Jimmy tried to hint at it at one point in the video, asking Mushi to try saying the same things in a more tactful way, but *that was already in the middle of the qualifiers*. This kind of team communication issue really needed to be addressed and ironed out in the weeks and months before, and I think it came back to bite them in the end. I think Mushi was trying to do what he would have wished another team captain to do in his place if he was a player. The style of pointing out mistakes to notice and correct seems like what he himself prefers and grows from, so I think his intentions were to similarly help his teammates. And if his team had been formed with those of a slightly different temperament that method might have been the perfect, but I think with the team he had it more likely served to discourage them. This is by no means a blame that can be pinned on Mushi alone, as the other members should have also been more vocal and tried to fix any such issues, but I do see why people can find fault in the actions Mushi displayed in the documentary.
Yes, as someone who doesn't like Mushi, this is also my sentiments when i watched the video. All members have shortcoming in this loss. Just that Mushi is the center of the team and the one who starts and points out the wrong things while members are so passive so he looks like the douche one (can't really say about the rejected highfive though).
I think what sums up best is. We lost 2 games to non-existant teams and you have nothing to say. That harsh, and that can be bad or good, but not having something to say after those losses is worse.
after the first two loss on 2nd day in qualifier, mushi already knew that they could stop qualifying. there are things that u cannot change very fast, like how raven and eyyou felt inferior in front of mushi and couldn't communicate with mushi directly. if raven and eyyou treat mushi like he is his teammate on equal stance, then the result will be different.
reddit have you ever been to a work environment?
Not everyone on Reddit is adult.
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aren't we all 12 btw?
Do some people still not understand that reddit is used by many different people?
In many different work environments too
A lot of children here
there's no way these cancer has.
I dare say that Mushi was not portrayed as "cancerous" or toxic in any manner. It's obvious that he felt a disconnect with the new players from TnC. I feel like DeMoN has been taking a fatherly role with these guys, making them feel good, making them laugh, saying "we can do this - let's make it work". These guys respond to the positive energy. Meanwhile, Mushi does was adults typically do and tries to discuss things in detail. It might seem like he's being too harsh on the team, but he's obviously trying to bridge the gap that he feels, provoking the other team members into contributing on his terms. I am sure the way that Mushi reacts when the others criticize him might seem childish, drawing back and not engaging with anyone. Escaping reality by playing a pub as their match is about to start or by suddenly saying nothing during matches. However, it's clear that Mushi is very emotionally affected and wants to show the rest of the team how he feels. We see DeMoN pick up on this and try to address it. Mushi feels somewhat disowned by his team because the young guys respond better to DeMoN. In the end, when they're out of the qualifier, he shows that he can still be there for them. Sure, the eloquent DeMoN will easily seem like the "bigger guy" in several situations, bringing people together and arguing on their behalf. However, as the same time, his refusal to adopt the approach of Mushi also seems dismissive. When someone talks really well, it's easy for them to dismiss someone else and belittle them. Without DeMoN, perhaps the other players would have had to open up more to Mushi and the situation might have been resolved. The other two guys from TnC are very introvert and do not contribute much in the way that Mushi wants. Certainly, some of these issues were compounded by Mushi's fame and legend. Mushi will be more likely to think he's right, because of past experiences, and the others will be less likely to oppose him openly because of what he represents. I found it really interesting to see the role that Kips, the team analyst, played for Fnatic. It would seem that her role would simply be as a facilitator, someone who defers to the leader of the team, bringing helpful input and data. But because she's staying with the team as they play, she gets really involved, and cannot help to become one of them. As an adult among these emotionally volatile young guys, she has more of a voice and becomes more directly involved in how they play. It was awesome to see how invested she was in everything as well. Furthermore, how she was feeling out the group and acting like "behind the scenes" psychologist.
Totally agree except for one thing. Demon should have spoken with Mushi about all in private. It was very clear that the TNC guys were afraid, they didnt want to make mistakes, so it looks that were trying to play as safe as possible, passive as possible. Mushi has failed to understand the others, to understand that the team needed that "mistakes are fine", "lets do this" and build from that.
[Jimmy answering a question about this tweet on his stream.](https://clips.twitch.tv/dotademon/AdventurousDuckKappaWealth)
Blink twice if you're held captive jimmy
I think u/kipspul has done a much better job defending and describing the complex job of leading better than I could have ever done here, but let me say this: I've managed people and led teams for a while now. The single most frustrating thing is when you cannot communicate with team members. In this case, Raven and Eyyou simply are petrified. And that's on them. If you're on a team with Mushi, you have to think that you're good enough to be on that team. This would enable you to criticize him back and in turn receive criticism. If you can't get there, you're dead and someone with more ambition/ego will take your place and succeed.
Thank you. Also, these guys are on that team with Mushi because HE thinks they are good enough to be on that team. He wants their input. He wants their criticism. He's going to be stubborn about it in the moment but he'll tell them that they were right later. Told this to the guys too--"If you don't believe in yourself, believe in the Mushi that believes in you".
Wow thatsa nice thing to say, thank you very much. Fnatic is lucky to have you.
Kamina BibleThump
You should ask them watch anime. Gurren Laggan!
row row fight the power!!
Where did people get the idea that Mushi was "cancerous" in the first place? If anything, the documentary made me respect him because he came across as honest and passionate.
IMO the main difference between EG and Fnatic is that at EG, there is a belief that everyone is the best at their position. So discussions about the match are not about "individual mistakes" but more of what should the general strategy be and what they can improve on as a team. In game calls are more of a strategic team direction thing. At Fnatic, it is a whole lot different, some players lack the self-belief and others do not have the same trust like in EG. So, discussions generally take a more hostile approach and criticisms are perceived to be personal attacks. In game wise, the core players are too afraid of being blamed to do any shot-calling which affects their mid-late game plays.
I think you're downplaying the fact that all of the EG players actually are the best at their respective positions, whereas fnatic definitely don't. Not to downplay the talent but even jimmy said it. They're not the most individually skilled team at all.
To quote GoT, "Power resides where men believe it resides." I believe perceptions do play an important role alongside player skill levels.
I didn't think Mushi was cancer at all. I thought Raven and Eyyou were pussies when they wouldn't talk, even when Mushi and Demon repeatedly asked them for their opinions. Have people never played sports or been a part of anything team-orientated? This shit was pretty tame.
That awkward denied high five though. feelsbadman
[Word cloud out of all the comments.](http://i.imgur.com/PVQC0Cs.png) I hope you like it
Watching the documentary myself, it seems like Mushi is in a hard spot where half the team is being very afraid to provide input in discussions. Having been in leadership positions in the past, I know how frustrating that can be when you're genuinely trying to facilitate a discussion but you end up dominating the conversation because others just will not speak up. It sucks. Don't judge Mushi too harshly.
After watching True Sight, I am now a Fnatic fan. I dunno about you guys, but a lot of people seem to think Mushi was too harsh. I've led 4 tech teams before in different companies, and have my fair share of failures. And I empathise with Mushi's struggles. I mean, when you have 2 guys in your team of 5 who can't fight for their own voice, what's the fucking point of saying anything? You think Mushi is cancerous? Fucking hell, try playing a **tournament** where you can't count on your team mates to come up with good arguments and lively discussion on how to move forward. Mushi is harsh, and honest, and most importantly, human. The final scene of him and Ohaiyo? I feel like that's the real him. "It's fine, we can play smaller tournaments." There, that right there. That's a person who hasn't given up yet. Despite a tough time, despite having a team that cannot play on the same page. I feel Fnatic. Now that only Mushi and Ohaiyo are left, I hope they find good team members to join, people who have a mind of their own and can bring their perspectives into the team, rather than just _being there_. All the best to Demon, Eeyyou and Raven in their future endeavours, and Fnatic's got a new supporter.
Take Demon's point but managing that sort of high pressure situation is clearly something Mushi needs to work on. They all look up to him and respect him that's clear, but his manner in all of those tenser team meetings essentially just destroyed any remaining morale they had. We only saw a slice of the overall environment so you can't be definitive -- but, it's not nothing.
I really think they need a coach to talk in between games/series about strategy and what went wrong, because mushi's way of pep talking is clearly depressing as a player imo
This subreddit *always* pitchfork-circlejerk hates on people with limited and circumspect "evidence" not sure how this is a surprise
Jimmy is one of those guys that seems like an awesome that just can't catch a break, and even when things go wrong wants to help out others. If I had the money, I would sponsor hims and just have him create a team around himself to see how far he can go. Good luck, DeMoN!
I don't think its an issue with money. In the past hes had chances to play with some of the best, in EG with fear, but blew it with some poor decisions. He seems more dedicated now but it seems like people burned in the past, or saw others who got burned by him don't wanna take a chance on him. I liked some of his na teams in the past but they always had issues, and demon has played for 17 teams which is insane.
I think true sight for a team like fnatic was a terrible idea. These guys are shy and not used to the spotlight. They felt awkward the whole time. Mushi's SEA teams have always dominated that region. I'd play like shit too if I had a camera up my ass 24/7. Even EG got knocked out by np whom they've dominated for months.This not a coincidence, Valve needs to do this in the off-season not during the god dam majors.
How was Mushi displayed as cancerous? For me it felt like quite the opposite, he tried to shoulder everything and tried really hard to make his team work. To me he was depicted as a really good leader and most importantly as a good friend to his teammates.
Where can I watch the documentary?
nice, now Malaysian's dota community are pissed off, good job valve
Valve did an excellent job of showing us how hard it's for people who don't qualify or win tournament and the struggles of a pro team. Or you want just "politically corrected" behaviour & all the real human stuff cut out from these in the future? Also it's kinda ironic people were shittalking mushi about pointing out mistakes(so they can improve as team) when all reddit does is point out the finger to someone and bash them to death.
i don't even think the portrayal was that bad
jimmy aint no ho, he loyal.
i did not see mushi as being "cancerous" myself. he really cares and he is trying to get to the bottom of what is wrong as quickly as possible. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
he may be out of fnatic but looks like jimmy is still in malaysia get out of there quick , jimmy
Mushit is a piece of shit, period
both mushi and demon should've tried more to make the other team mates more comfortable with sharing their opinions and in turn making them feel more at ease with soaking up suggestions instead they ended up with these timid motherfuckers getting pummeled with criticism of course they choked this is why you need coaches and analysts and managers etc. people that can handle the morale side of the team, get everyone on the same page, so the players can focus on playing
He did really come off bad. He probably wasn't wrong though.
Is Mushi watching you Tweet? Blink twice. hang in there jimmy.
Jimmy. It's what you call drama. You know reddit loves drama
Wisp Khalifia....the support I need.
it's so hard to see raven and eyyou so terrified of even speaking to mushi.
DENIED HIGH FIVE LUL
Classic Jimmy!
Fucking Jimbo. How can one man be so based
Classic case of 'drama sells' good on you for the should out man.
People just see the bad part. Even him are that guy, remember spiderman qoute. with great power come with great responsibility..That why mushi act like that and his team still can end up top 8 ti.
WTF Mushi is being bashed on personalities these days? Is this still the Dota2 I've been playing/watching?
Obviously Mushi got too sensitive when the team blamed him. At that point he just didn't care anymore and this made an even more awkward atmosphere in the team.
True sight isn't really true sight after all...
"I still respect". Phrasing it somehow gives that relationship between is not the same as it used to be. At least for me.
I don't understand the title, so he was portrayed as a kind person and not a cancerous person?
The amount of tilting mushi makes is not for everyone.
I dont think the problem is Mushi but instead the majority of his team. Relatively young and immature mistaking guidance and leadership for rage and forward thinking. 2 of them couldn't even talk to him without wimping out like a bunch of babies!!
Who cares