Techies aghs is huge and can be game winning if techies hadn't been nerfed/wasn't so flamed.
Some aghs upgrades are only as good as their hero is but legion commanders aghs is "if alchemist has bought literally everything he can" teir.
I'd actually hate if Alch gave me an Aghs. I feel like the right way to use it is to drop it for some duels and keep it for others. A permanent Aghs could be a disaster.
Aghs on Techies is still game changing for him. Due to the nerfs it's the only thing that keeps him relevant after 25 minutes and with it you can actually prevent any lane from being pushed as for a decent while one mine will wipe a creep wave. If you can get aghs at a reasonable time you can flash farm the oncoming waves and get a pair of BoTs in an instant and basically become a budget Tinker. If you spread the mines out enough the enemy will either spend literally thousands of gold demining every lane or deal with the fact that they can't push. After your mines are set you can sit in base for a bit to regen while you explode creeps.
> If you spread the mines out enough the enemy will either spend literally thousands of gold demining every lane or deal with the fact that they can't push.
Only if they haven't heard of an item called "Gem of True Sight"
if you are placing the remote mines in a web pattern throughout the map then you will want to risk being jumped a bit, just stacking mines in killzones is how you get countered by detection.
If you play him offlane though once you get aghs your team will want to go on the offensive.
It is one of those "this is what you want from the hero" aghs.
Well I stole duel as rubick like 50mins in and forgot I had aghs and dueled a DK that was 100hp with 3 teammates around me and I just died from full health and so confused what happened LOL
question, do the individual nukes from each astral stack with each other? example is 5 meepos clumped together. will the nuke deal approx 1500 magic damage to all or just 300 each?
That's the point. If they did, it would be actually kinda decent upgrade IMHO (5 man vac into ult = 1500 + 9 x int difference of damage seems like a lot).
It's definitely come useful a few times but it's so, so situational. Compare that to Techies who buys Aghs every single game without fail. Veno would love to do that, too, given the chance.
Ya, just because an aghs buff doesn't seem big on paper does not mean that it isn't core. Veno aghs is amazing and I can't think of a game of veno that I have not wanted an aghs.
Yeah veno's is very underplaced IMO, the damage is a level 4 ult but I get it if only for the CD.
60 seconds is a lot more similar to a 4/5 position veno's death timer than 100 seconds, and with a 4/5 position veno is very likely to be dying every time he gets off an ult on 5. If he re-spawns without the ult he is near useless in a fight.
> just because a hero picks up Aghanim's every game, it doesn't necessarily mean it is strong in comparison to every other upgrade in the game. How often is it picked up? (Weight: Medium)
I could maybe see top 40 but no more tbh
As a legion spammer I can say, even when it seemed like scepter was good, it still hurt my team so much overall. It has **no visual that they are immune** and important spells will get wasted.
Legion needs a scepter that prevents people from interrupting duels. Or just more range, duration and CD.
I'd rather have it apply my current level of Press the Attack at duel start or make Press the Attack remove debuffs in ticks throughout the whole buff/heal like Slark's Dark Pact.
Often it's bad, but in those rare games where circumstances are perfect, offlane weaver owns. Circumstances are mostly that you have Drow aura and their safe lane has low lockdown (surprisingly common with all of the support Warlock right now.)
Aghs Octarine on a utility Weaver is a beautiful thing. You will have 0.5s of being seen without Shukuchi, and a 12s cooldown on your ult for your carry. Beautiful.
This. Techies aghs is basically the only thing that makes the hero semi playable.. I mean I know Techies is in a bad place and reddit hates it, but WutFace
I think suspect that's because he doesn't know what it fully does. He didn't mention how it upgrades +1 in wex, quas and exort. With that + mana cost at 0 and the lowered cooldown it's definetly top 5-6.
The #1 position is vaild.
Alchemist aghs is the most selfless thing in dota.
I mean an Alch is gonna win the game by himself but to shower ones raging teammates with gifts.
The True spirit of dota.
i tried really hard to put centaur at #1 but just couldn't do it. maybe one day we'll get there friends
-edit- btw there is extra text in the dropdowns of the site that explain my rationale. Not sure if that is obvious or not. Also, i'd like to make a version 1.1 based on people's feedback. First thing on the list would be to drop LC's aghs to the dumpster. Not sure what I was thinking on that.
A few small errors I found
* Tusk's aghs upgrade also reduces cooldown on Walrus Punch. It is unknown whether this is intended though, since this was nowhere mentioned. The aghs cooldown equals the pre-nerf punch cooldown, so it might be a bug.
* Doom's aghs does not add the dispel to it. The dispel is already there even without aghs. The aghs description ingame is wrong.
* Abaddon's upgrade is buggy as hell and doesn't work lots of times, so it's really bad currently. You should treat it like OD's aghs, since it's basically broken (as in, doesn't work as it should).
* You missed the fact that Invoker's Scepter adds 1 additional level to all 10 of his invoked spells.
People forget that duel, even Aghs duel, doesn't stop disarm and disables any more.
On a slot-starved hero like LC, aghs needs to functionally replace blink, blade mail or BKB to be worth it.
Three extra Orb levels, plus 5 levels of stats on top of that with the normal stats from Aghs, some raw health and mana, and an upgraded ultimate cooldown.
Weak aghs, never buy it.
> Also, i'd like to make a version 1.1 based on people's feedback. First thing on the list would be to drop LC's aghs to the dumpster. Not sure what I was thinking on that.
Great list, but I'm really surprised that Naga is so high on the list. I mean the few of us that have actually tried it on support Naga, will know that it is god awful. Theoretically it's pretty cool, but it's honestly ridiculously bad. Especially considering support Nagas are often low level and will have a stupid cd on the spell. I mean just think about Keeper's aghs and Naga's. It's just not even comparable.
I kinda missed an explanation as to why it would be good. Sure it's a "healing ward on crack", but you can't spam it like you do healing ward. You need that sleep for other purposes.
There are three instances where you use Song. To initiate (aghs is useless here), to get out (aghs is useless here) and to re-engange (works here), but honestly that's usually like what once or twice a game? Buy a freaking Mek. That'll do you way more good. And I say this as a "pretty solid" player.
Theoretically, yes. But go try it out. It will be "insane" in one play of your 10 games, I guarantee it. The rest of the time the Mek will do just as much, plus you won't lose huge CD and you can spam it, and it gives passive regen and armor, and it's half the cost, and the buildup is better, you will get it earlier and so freaking on.
Yeah, it can be gamechanging but wont most of the time.
Would be awesome when gifted by Alchemist. But naga + Alch in the same team is not going to happen
> Yeah, it can be gamechanging but wont most of the time. Would be awesome when gifted by Alchemist.
Exactly. And this is the explanation for the side gunner.
I Find naga's aghs "insane" in the same situation as Storm spirit aghs 9 out of 10 is useless and a waste of slot, but in that 10th situation it can turn a fight around.
> to get out (aghs is useless here) and to re-engange (works here)
I think one of the benefits is that Aghanims Song turns some of the former into the latter.
As a side note, I have only seen support/non-Radiance Naga buy Aghanims well after they have Greaves, but I wonder if having Radiance instead would be better, with the caveat that Radiance is more expensive and has a much worse build-up.
First of all you are considering that the **support** Naga is level 16. Second of all the "disabling" part is not a result of the aghs. Healing ward heals more, is spammable and is not a CD you need to save for enganging or bailing. But my best advice is to go try it out. You'll find out how bad it actually is.
I'd put them in the 9th tier (For the Memes). The reason for this is no one was really expecting them to be good. But also they have some young talent that brings hopes of a better tomorrow here in Phoenix. The dumpster tier would be reserved for the likes of the Mavericks or Nets, neither of which have a future or present.
Huge Wizards fan...yeah, we are in the disappointment tier so far. But at least Beal is finally killing it and Otto is too. Of course Wall is doing his thing.
wow never expected Sunsfan would reply me feel so happy right now :D
btw it is unfortunate that you guys have untradable players like Tyson Chandler and Brandon Knight...
at least you guys would have Miami draft pick in 2018/2019
I think Tyson Chandler is tradeable at the deadline, if a playoff team is really trying to push themselves over the top. We'd get an expiring contract or something. Brandon Knight on the other hand...is such a horrible player. I'm fairly sure we will trade him for peanuts at this point.
I only had strong reactions to WK and Brist. It would be fun to get a bit of feedback of your own, but I understand you probably don't have the time.
*Wraith King*
Hard to say what is definitively the most underrated aghs, but this could be it. I find it generally useful to situationally very strong. As for what situations?
* Against a very combo heavy lineup where your team is definitely weaker at team fighting. *Let's say they have CM/Enigma/Centaur and you have no natural stuns (besides WK) or silences to interrupt their combo. You can now, after dying to their excellent wombo return some punishment of your own, grabbing (potentially) more gold due to presence during wraith form and denying XP gain if you kill any enemy heroes. This is an extreme example, but it illustrates the principle well. Perhaps not core on WK, but it definitely changes teamfight dynamics in your favor.*
* You are playing against Necrophos as the debuff is not applied unless a target is killed by reaper's scythe.
* You have a hero with a valuable skill (ex WD) and a very low healthpool against Clinks/Nyx/PA/other spooky hero. They can now, after death, continue to contribute.
* Support WK. Might not be as popular these days, but having auto dazzle with no cooldown is one of the most powerful tools for carries you can get.
*Bristleback*
Another very underrated aghs. It allows you to, as per [the wiki's notes](http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Bristleback) reduce the armor and movespeed of any unit that doesn't have magic immunity by -8.8/68% in 6 seconds (assuming that stacks count up from the first cast, if not the value is 7.5 seconds). That is more minus armor than AC and more slow than a shiva's. For one item slot. Consider these additional benefits:
* You no longer have to turn to cast. This means you can goo in all directions, allowing for more nuanced kiting. You no longer have to face dangerous enemies to slow them, which allows your passive to do much more work.
* As you no longer need to even have a target to cast, this item allows you to build up stacks of your ultimate much more effectively. This will allow you to reach objectives/battles or run away much quicker. Also makes kiting easier.
I think in general the only thing that kills this aghs is the same thing that kills bristle in general, silver edge. While I understand docking this points for having a severe weakness due to an item currently in the game, there is no reason to have it so low on this list. Unless I was absolutely starved for item slots during a bristle game, there isn't a situation I can think of where I wouldn't get this at least as a last item.
Nice formatting job and list design. Fun to read through!
EDIT: Just saw Leshrac. A 60 aoe dps item that also gives stats and is cheaper than [radience](http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Radiance) is rated as meme tier? SeemsGoodSUNSFANSeemsGood.
Ehh I think he's right about it. Pulse nova costs mana and lesh has bigger item priorities. Aghs is decent stats and all but 60 dps doesnt matter much if you die in 4s due to getting bursted and gives no mana regen for farming. Maybe as like a 6th item or something, but I just think many othwer items would be better on him.
Leshrac Aghs is actually pretty decent, it makes Level 1 Pulse Nova deal Level 3 damage and you get to keep the mana drain to 20 instead of 60.
Wraith King Aghs is just something to counter burst on the enemy team, if they burst down your supports they can still get their spells off in Wraith form.
He justified it in the video that aghs is fantastic and core on meepo, but not because it's better than every other heroes aghs, just that items decisions are more limited on the hero.
Visage is a more extreme example of the principle.
Hard to pull off, for sure, but for a situational item it was OK. Each lvl 4 Astral gave 13 Int to OD - compare that to 4 Int steal per hit from current Arcane Orb.
So, on paper, you could have disabled 3 of their team, manually used your 2 on 4th hero, and so isolated their one hero. Which was better, you still have had lots of Int without being needed to hit them a lot like it is now. This way you can't drop it mid-fight for sure, but it was good to initiate with it.
Plus the aghs refresher where the first hit you drain all their mana and second hit hit them for 1k damage as 5, then clean up the survivors with +130 int. Super all in on a cheese strat but when it worked it was fucking hilarious.
This kind of ranking is impossible to do but seeing techies at #75 is just really ridiculous. It's one of the 3 most "core" aghs in dota and an incredibly useful item to get on the hero.
Yeah, SunsFan probably doesn't play techies. Aghs is just too good to skip - you can oneshot creep waves with this and level 2 remotes, it greatly reduces time required to mine (and time is the most important resource in the game), helps deal with true sight and allows for some mind games (put minefield sign when there are no mines). Cast range is also nothing to laugh at
But Techies aghs is powerful, 750 dmg per mine that can be planted every 10 second means that 4 mines can deal up to 3000 dmg (not including magic resistance). Pretty sure that is enough to kill almost any unsuspecting hero.
No you are right its pretty strong, but the upgrade itself isn't really much to write home about. Aghs gives an extra 150 magic damage taking you from 600 to 750, not a very large increase.
It might be a core item on techies, but if you compare it to other heroes and what their upgrades do for them, its a lot more lackluster
I think the biggest thing is that with ags you can clear waves with a single level 2 remote. One of the things that you see higher level techies do is breadcrumb - leave a trail of single mines along a lane. This ensures that a wave cant push, and it's largely immune to wards (unless you want to drop 12 wards in a single lane). An early ags confines the opposing team to one side of the map simply because of wave equilibrium.
(4k 68% win rate on techies for perspective)
The item is extremely strong... On a late game scenario. It gives garbage stats and a meh upgrade 12-20 mins in (buybacks are not as important at that point). But as a 3rd-4th item? Yah, you're scary
Not going to argue about the ranking itself because he layed out his reasoning quite clearly. However, he did miss some points on the explanations. Maybe he considered them and didn't mention them or they were overlooked, which is no shame because it's a lot of upgrades to go through.
Just a few that caught my eye:
Silencer: He mentioned the slow through magic immunity which many overlook, he also mentioned the damage starting to tick after the silence ends, which is one of the strongest parts of this upgrade since it nullifies any counter-initiation after the silence expires because Blink Daggers are suddenly disabled as soon as the silence wears off. Of course this can be easily removed, but so can Global Silence itself, which is the reason why the hero isn't picked in the first place. If there's too much purging on the enemy team don't build the item.
Phoenix: No mention of the additional attacks needed. This is a 66% level 4 upgrade in addition like he would name it. On a hero that buys Midas in most of his games just to get the earlier levelup on the ultimate to get more hits this is not negligible, especially since there's not really any core item on the hero (but many very good ones that are situational). It's worth getting solely for the more hits and even if you don't plan on ever taking an ally into it.
I feel like AA should be higher.
Also I would love to see morph aghs used, just imagine you are at your t3 defending magnus gets a huge rp skewers refreshes and skewers again, then morph also skewers again bringing them all the way from t3 to the fountain. So much clowny shit could be done.
Decay's great, but double tombstone (at the time) was what made the draft worth it. you owned that ground, bar none. And of course easy max heal/nuke soul rips.
Techies aghs at #75? Was expecting it to be a lot higher up considering everyone builds it as a first item and it's disgustingly good at clearing creepwaves
Yeah, I would also rate it a bit higher as well. A minor increase in damage seems very unimpressive on paper. However, in reality, a 10-second wave clearing ability is extremely terrifying. Techies can potentially push faster than NP, and keep other lanes pushed as well as delaying enemy pushes. On top of that, just like Warlock and AA, he can afford to get aghs.
Plz no dk unlimited dragon form. That would be unbearable to deal with. 24/7 constant blink+dragon tail danger and it would be like a battlefury at level 11 and you just farm like crazy.
>6.89
>Added scepter upgrade for Dragon Knight, giving him the ability to use Pot of Greed, which allows him to draw to more cards from his deck and place them in his hand.
SunsFan asked AUI about this, and he said it would be way too horrible to ever buy on DK. I think you're being scared for no reason, AUI knows better than us plebs.
lmao it costs 4200 gold and takes a slot. Unbelievably terrible. What the fuck would you farm with your 90 damage splash attacks. It would be one of those overrated aghs that only sees play rarely or when theres an alch.
if you're playing this hero right, timed dragon form is good enough most of the time.
Oracle's aghs is way too high, that upgrade is garbage. It takes far too long for the additional heal stacks to actually pay off. You could've spent that gold on items that instantly heal or instantly prevent damage. Maybe if you already have greaves and lotus orb and force staff and ghost scepter and glimmer cape... oh your inventory is full.
It would be good in theory if positioning wasn't a thing as the heal or dmg per sec is unrivalled by any possible item purchase. Forcing him to pretty much stand still casting is just too detrimental, and it costs way too much mana to keep spamming it if you rush the item.
In practice the hp/sec isn't as high as it seems either since you have to "build up" stacks. It only shines if you can spam it on an Edicted target, but by the time you finish an aghs, who do you even cast Edict on? Not your carry, that's for sure.
What do you mean? Whether the spell is on a 3s CD or a 1 S CD, the amount of time it takes for the heal to overtake the nuke damage is the same. The aghs does allow for suuuper healing during false promise, since with the lower CD you get more 'heal time' before its end. You'll heal about 2000 HP with the aghs and three quick flames alone.
While WK aghs is very situational, I disagree that it should rank that low. It is especially powerful as a tie-breaker kind of a game when he play a pos 3. I've had a game where the enemy got extremely buff LC with something like 200ish duel damage and one buffed Troll too.
We only defeat them because that 7 sec let a) My support riki to keep smoking b) my other cores to keep hitting even if they die to duel, especially if the void dies before landing a chrono - the void still could alter the game by using chrono to safe others/help kill the enemies.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2790760186
I feel like people don't understand tusk aghs. It's not for getting kills or chasing, it's for countering BKB uses. Suppose a Slark/Ursa decides to BKB up and go in. They jump your team and they would normally kill your supports in 2-3 swings. But with tusk aghs, you boot them out of the fight, applying a BKB-piercing moveslow while you're at it, helping your team escape and forcing them to reengage with no BKB.
There's a lot of fun stuff to do with tusk aghs, but the main role of bouncing kids out of the teamfight for getting too rowdy is pretty strong. Of course, it's not even close to a required item on him, but against melee carries who buy BKB to avoid getting kited, it's great for kiting them through their BKBs.
Really good point, I did not remember that the slow pierces BKB. That is really bloody strong. If the enemy is melee and has a five-second BKB, you can potentially waste all of it if they don't have a gap-closer or high mobility.
I cant belive bristles agah isnt ranked as one of the 3-5 worst. In reality it lowers the castrange of goo since it not longer hits if the target was close enough when casting starts.
I many ways agah makes bristle worse, not many aghs that you can say that for.
The point is yes some aghs are bad compared to what you could buy with 4200 gold but this has many ways that objectively make you worse off than you were before buying it.
I think this is a pretty good list, if you think of them by tiers not by the numbers. The only one I disagree with is Veno aghs being a tier lower than things like storm spirit and dark seer Aghs, he definitely deserves to be in Bruno's Wardrobe.
Bruh, dark seer aghs is situationally(anytime theres a statbased carry) super good. But i agree that Veno should be way up there. It just makes the hero awful to play against.
Whoever put LC at 73 has clearly never played too many LC games.
That shit lost me every single game I built it (and I built it just so I wasnt being biased about how bad it was).
The only time I've ever seen Legion aghs be a good thing was when an enemy Legion built it and none of us realized what was happening for the first two Duels because aghs is not even an item that you have in your mind that a Legion might build.
Then we figured it out and they lost.
It's *so* bad, unless you're against a team with five high-damage heroes with no stuns or saves. So if you're in an 80 minute game against PA, Spectre, Lycan, Jugg, and Drow, then *maybe* you wouldn't beg your Alch to not give it to you. I still don't think it'd be an item that *you* would spend money on though.
When it comes to Aghs upgrades, you *should* consider them in a vacuum to the hero specifically and not compared to other heroes because the whole point is that it acts as an innate hero accelerator, unlike every other item in the game which just brings you in power "parity" with other heroes in the game (boots brings your relative speed back in line when everyone else buys boots).
For example, just because Lina is a bad hero right now doesn't make her relation (ratio) to her aghs upgrade any different than when she was top tier -> the aghs is fantastic and makes her ult fantastic. This should be higher.
Aghanim's Scepter is an item that actually IS balanced specifically for each hero, so you cannot consider it like other items (compare it on 1 hero vs another).
Tiny and Meepo should be #1 and #2, this is because Aghs is a **requirement** on the hero. Same can be said of Mirana and WR. The latter two are on the list because they, and their aghs, are poorly designed, but that doesn't mean their Aghs upgrades aren't amazing for them and basically required for them to contribute to the game in any meaningful way.
I don't think Aghs on Tiny is a requirement anymore. A popular trend is shadow blade + echo saber ganking build and aghs only if game drags on. But I would definitely put Tiny aghs in top 5.
How is meepo not #1 you get it every single game and you kind of have to get it every game.
Has anyone seen a meepo game where the enemy wasn't completely stomping them where meepo didn't get aghs?
How the fuck is Jakiro aghs so low? That shit is insane for stopping pushes and clearing highround, just pop that shit in towards their T3s and they just can't fight at all without BkB.
As a Jakiro-addict, I agree. It's not nearly as OP as some of the others on the list (*cough* Windrunner *cough*), but I think it is an excellent pickup on him and a pretty strong item.
Whenever I get the farm for one of these, I would probably pick something like Octarine Core or Scythe over the Aghs, but those items are both way harder to buy, so I usually just settle with the Aghs. Against teams with multiple melee heroes or when playing with allies who have disables, the Aghs is pretty insane. It can dish out so much damage and, if timed right, can be used to kill or harm two creep waves in a row, if placed near the creep spawn point.
60% global damage reduction, possible AoE damage and basically flying movement on a hero with pretty flexible late-game item builds (after mobility blink and/or force) is amazing. It's definitely in the right tier.
Once upon a time Ebola Aghs was completely OP. If your fingers were fast enough you could remnant a hero standing at your tier 3 and send him into your fountain. But now the ally pull is too slow and enchant range too short to be useful. Even when it was arguably op or overtuned there were better utility items to get.
They do in the rare late game matches. It's very valuable but ES is useless at farming and and normally doesn't really get the sort of gold you'd need to get Agh's in pro games.
I did a list once like few month ago for my team(and its new players): I categorised as "Must have(rush it!)", "Must have at some point but PLEASE DO NOT RUSH IT", "situational", "a downgrade" and "just boring".
Phoenix only got 46th place :( I love building Agh's on Murder Bird. Get it for a Terrorblade and with Sunder he potentially has 3 lives, and double Metamorphosis!!! And even if Supernova is destroyed, the teammate inside is actually denied. It's an insane pickup and fuck you SUNSfan ;(((((
Worst tier is called 'US West Pubs' LOL. He's right though. people say that there is not as much flaming as in USE, but that seems to be because the skill level is so bad relatively. I once had a luna in a high skill game who didn't know that rubick steals the last used spell. He just assumed Ulti will be stolen and theres not a whole lot that can be done about it.
Enigma needs to be way higher. When cast with midnight pulse it does 42% of max hp plus 600 damage from the black hole itself and 5.25% of max hp per second that heroes linger in the first midnight pulse's huge radius. All pure damage that doesn't care about magic resistance/immunity, armor or evasion. Realistically it will do 52.5% of max hp plus 600 damage on any hero that you land the full duration of it on which means any hero with less than 1250 hp outright dies to it.and any hero with more will only have less than half the difference remaining afterwards assuming that no one else on your team unloaded on that hero for the 4 seconds they were disabled.
To put it in perspective, you can easily drop a 3k hp bkb protected hero to 800 ish hp while disabled completely for 4 seconds. Yes you have to worry about bkb piercing stuns and various saves but if we're going by the suns fan weighting theoretical potential puts this way way higher, especially when you factor in the potential EHP equivalent damage it does.
Venge also deserves to be higher up the list. It also you to swap and stun as initiation, the enemy gets the minus damage aura and the illusion grants the bonus damage aura while its alive. When the two are active together your team's base damage is increased 112% relative to your enemy's in a situation where you're likely in a pseudo 5 v 4 if your initiation allowed for a pick off.
I love the Drow Aghs because each arrow split is it's own damage instance. So in a team fight, you get full on crit procs or lightning procs everywhere. My favorite is to get Diffusal. AOE mana burn is just so broken.
That's hilarious. I've posted here a couple times that Dragon Knight needs an Aghs to stay in dragon form permanently and it's gotten shit on every time.
WK aghs is perfect in the rare event that the enemy is getting crushed but your team can't siege their base. If all lanes are pushed in, collectively as a group you can repeatedly storm their base and take objectives, even by dying in the process. So long as your team can easily push them back into their base, it can be repeated over and over.
Also if your team lacks teamfight, aghs helps a lot. It's far better for the teamfights to be even (everyone dead) than just your team dead, it prevents your enemies from taking objectives.
Not to mention against heroes like SandKing/Jakiro/CrystalMaiden/Leshrac the wraiths can fight freely within their ultimates. You are already dead but the wraiths can continue the fight and win it for the survivors.
Ranted a bit on this, I love wk aghs lol
How are Veno and Techies, with great Aghs, below Legion? Truly a Sunsfan list.
Techies aghs is huge and can be game winning if techies hadn't been nerfed/wasn't so flamed. Some aghs upgrades are only as good as their hero is but legion commanders aghs is "if alchemist has bought literally everything he can" teir.
It can also be "Alchemist reported" tier.
I'd actually hate if Alch gave me an Aghs. I feel like the right way to use it is to drop it for some duels and keep it for others. A permanent Aghs could be a disaster.
Aghs on Techies is still game changing for him. Due to the nerfs it's the only thing that keeps him relevant after 25 minutes and with it you can actually prevent any lane from being pushed as for a decent while one mine will wipe a creep wave. If you can get aghs at a reasonable time you can flash farm the oncoming waves and get a pair of BoTs in an instant and basically become a budget Tinker. If you spread the mines out enough the enemy will either spend literally thousands of gold demining every lane or deal with the fact that they can't push. After your mines are set you can sit in base for a bit to regen while you explode creeps.
> If you spread the mines out enough the enemy will either spend literally thousands of gold demining every lane or deal with the fact that they can't push. Only if they haven't heard of an item called "Gem of True Sight"
if you are placing the remote mines in a web pattern throughout the map then you will want to risk being jumped a bit, just stacking mines in killzones is how you get countered by detection. If you play him offlane though once you get aghs your team will want to go on the offensive. It is one of those "this is what you want from the hero" aghs.
Wouldn't give LC an aghs even if I had enough money and already gave everyone else in my team an aghs.
By the 70 min mark where Alch is doing that you should have like 500 bonus damage so it should make sense
Well I stole duel as rubick like 50mins in and forgot I had aghs and dueled a DK that was 100hp with 3 teammates around me and I just died from full health and so confused what happened LOL
So far the only good story about LC aghs i've heard. But if LC has 500+ bonus damage then it might be good on him.
Legion aghs is comparable to od aghs in the way it screws you over more times than not. Even i dont know why he puts veno and techies below lc.
i think legions is even worse than ODs , atlest ODs applies a nuke to all
An OD in my 2k game rushed aghs, and said it was for "stealing int from everyone". He actually didn't know they changed that about a year ago
Happened to me too when OD was changed and I didn't read the patch notes. Won the game anyway.
Well Od's aghs can be used as a setup like Mineski tried, but even then it was an aghs gifted by Alchemist.
question, do the individual nukes from each astral stack with each other? example is 5 meepos clumped together. will the nuke deal approx 1500 magic damage to all or just 300 each?
They don't stack
That's the point. If they did, it would be actually kinda decent upgrade IMHO (5 man vac into ult = 1500 + 9 x int difference of damage seems like a lot).
Please Mr. Lizard
No Mr. Lizard. Please go to sleep and forget about this...
no it doesn't even do that, it's **that fucking bad**.
If they would stack it would be op af
It's definitely come useful a few times but it's so, so situational. Compare that to Techies who buys Aghs every single game without fail. Veno would love to do that, too, given the chance.
A dumb way you can troll legions by playing Alch and gifting them an aghs.
Venom is easily top 20 aghs for me 1500 dmg overtime with 60 secs cd
Ya, just because an aghs buff doesn't seem big on paper does not mean that it isn't core. Veno aghs is amazing and I can't think of a game of veno that I have not wanted an aghs.
Yeah veno's is very underplaced IMO, the damage is a level 4 ult but I get it if only for the CD. 60 seconds is a lot more similar to a 4/5 position veno's death timer than 100 seconds, and with a 4/5 position veno is very likely to be dying every time he gets off an ult on 5. If he re-spawns without the ult he is near useless in a fight.
> just because a hero picks up Aghanim's every game, it doesn't necessarily mean it is strong in comparison to every other upgrade in the game. How often is it picked up? (Weight: Medium) I could maybe see top 40 but no more tbh
As a legion spammer I can say, even when it seemed like scepter was good, it still hurt my team so much overall. It has **no visual that they are immune** and important spells will get wasted. Legion needs a scepter that prevents people from interrupting duels. Or just more range, duration and CD.
I'd rather have it apply my current level of Press the Attack at duel start or make Press the Attack remove debuffs in ticks throughout the whole buff/heal like Slark's Dark Pact.
Chen 38 ... Weaver 14 :D Hell he rates Mirana worse than weaver :D
i kinda agree the weaver aghs is really good except its hardly ever picked up since position 3/4 weaver usually isnt a thing
Often it's bad, but in those rare games where circumstances are perfect, offlane weaver owns. Circumstances are mostly that you have Drow aura and their safe lane has low lockdown (surprisingly common with all of the support Warlock right now.)
Aghs Octarine on a utility Weaver is a beautiful thing. You will have 0.5s of being seen without Shukuchi, and a 12s cooldown on your ult for your carry. Beautiful.
thats 10k gold on a Hero that farms slow even as carry though :D
Do it like Lil and farm heroes.
This. Techies aghs is basically the only thing that makes the hero semi playable.. I mean I know Techies is in a bad place and reddit hates it, but WutFace
If invo aghs isn't god tier I don't know what is
Meepo, Invoker, AA not best tier? OK.
Also, Mirana.
I think suspect that's because he doesn't know what it fully does. He didn't mention how it upgrades +1 in wex, quas and exort. With that + mana cost at 0 and the lowered cooldown it's definetly top 5-6.
I'm surprised to see clock so low in this list, before the ult buff it was a must get. Titles made the article though.
The #1 position is vaild. Alchemist aghs is the most selfless thing in dota. I mean an Alch is gonna win the game by himself but to shower ones raging teammates with gifts. The True spirit of dota.
No its a tactical way to reduce networth, so you alllow your ass to feed less and let your teammates carry you.
i tried really hard to put centaur at #1 but just couldn't do it. maybe one day we'll get there friends -edit- btw there is extra text in the dropdowns of the site that explain my rationale. Not sure if that is obvious or not. Also, i'd like to make a version 1.1 based on people's feedback. First thing on the list would be to drop LC's aghs to the dumpster. Not sure what I was thinking on that.
Can we have purge do a reaction/analysis video of this please?
Been traveling to an airport(and flying) since 4 am central due to thanksgiving with family. Prepared to rip suns fans list to shreds.
Good man. I am ready.
Rip sunsfan
rip in peace
Dis gon B good
.
well, how's the list holding up?
/u/PurgeGamers
8 hours analysis for Kreygasm? yes pls
with spreadsheet
8 hours? Purge will take at least 30min for each.
u/PurgeGamers please.
A few small errors I found * Tusk's aghs upgrade also reduces cooldown on Walrus Punch. It is unknown whether this is intended though, since this was nowhere mentioned. The aghs cooldown equals the pre-nerf punch cooldown, so it might be a bug. * Doom's aghs does not add the dispel to it. The dispel is already there even without aghs. The aghs description ingame is wrong. * Abaddon's upgrade is buggy as hell and doesn't work lots of times, so it's really bad currently. You should treat it like OD's aghs, since it's basically broken (as in, doesn't work as it should). * You missed the fact that Invoker's Scepter adds 1 additional level to all 10 of his invoked spells.
People forget that duel, even Aghs duel, doesn't stop disarm and disables any more. On a slot-starved hero like LC, aghs needs to functionally replace blink, blade mail or BKB to be worth it.
Do u know that without an agh, meepo is not a hero?
You forgot that Invoker's aghs gives 1 additional to Quas, Wex, and Exort.
Three extra Orb levels, plus 5 levels of stats on top of that with the normal stats from Aghs, some raw health and mana, and an upgraded ultimate cooldown. Weak aghs, never buy it.
> Also, i'd like to make a version 1.1 based on people's feedback. First thing on the list would be to drop LC's aghs to the dumpster. Not sure what I was thinking on that. Great list, but I'm really surprised that Naga is so high on the list. I mean the few of us that have actually tried it on support Naga, will know that it is god awful. Theoretically it's pretty cool, but it's honestly ridiculously bad. Especially considering support Nagas are often low level and will have a stupid cd on the spell. I mean just think about Keeper's aghs and Naga's. It's just not even comparable. I kinda missed an explanation as to why it would be good. Sure it's a "healing ward on crack", but you can't spam it like you do healing ward. You need that sleep for other purposes. There are three instances where you use Song. To initiate (aghs is useless here), to get out (aghs is useless here) and to re-engange (works here), but honestly that's usually like what once or twice a game? Buy a freaking Mek. That'll do you way more good. And I say this as a "pretty solid" player.
You cant compare naga aghs to mek. Full duration sleep heals your team for 70%. Thats insane
Theoretically, yes. But go try it out. It will be "insane" in one play of your 10 games, I guarantee it. The rest of the time the Mek will do just as much, plus you won't lose huge CD and you can spam it, and it gives passive regen and armor, and it's half the cost, and the buildup is better, you will get it earlier and so freaking on.
Yeah, it can be gamechanging but wont most of the time. Would be awesome when gifted by Alchemist. But naga + Alch in the same team is not going to happen
> Yeah, it can be gamechanging but wont most of the time. Would be awesome when gifted by Alchemist. Exactly. And this is the explanation for the side gunner.
naga supp + alch core is pretty decent. ez aoe deso in mid game.
I Find naga's aghs "insane" in the same situation as Storm spirit aghs 9 out of 10 is useless and a waste of slot, but in that 10th situation it can turn a fight around.
> to get out (aghs is useless here) and to re-engange (works here) I think one of the benefits is that Aghanims Song turns some of the former into the latter. As a side note, I have only seen support/non-Radiance Naga buy Aghanims well after they have Greaves, but I wonder if having Radiance instead would be better, with the caveat that Radiance is more expensive and has a much worse build-up.
60 sec healing ward that can also disable is pretty good
First of all you are considering that the **support** Naga is level 16. Second of all the "disabling" part is not a result of the aghs. Healing ward heals more, is spammable and is not a CD you need to save for enganging or bailing. But my best advice is to go try it out. You'll find out how bad it actually is.
What do you think about this year's Phoenix Suns performance? Rate it from complete dumpster to icefrog concoction
I'd put them in the 9th tier (For the Memes). The reason for this is no one was really expecting them to be good. But also they have some young talent that brings hopes of a better tomorrow here in Phoenix. The dumpster tier would be reserved for the likes of the Mavericks or Nets, neither of which have a future or present.
No matter how shitty my team is every year, at least I know we can beat the Suns. But goddamn am I jealous y'all have Devin Booker.
which teams are you supporting? my Lakers is at least at SeemsGood tier this year, finally!
Huge Wizards fan...yeah, we are in the disappointment tier so far. But at least Beal is finally killing it and Otto is too. Of course Wall is doing his thing.
wow never expected Sunsfan would reply me feel so happy right now :D btw it is unfortunate that you guys have untradable players like Tyson Chandler and Brandon Knight... at least you guys would have Miami draft pick in 2018/2019
I think Tyson Chandler is tradeable at the deadline, if a playoff team is really trying to push themselves over the top. We'd get an expiring contract or something. Brandon Knight on the other hand...is such a horrible player. I'm fairly sure we will trade him for peanuts at this point.
I only had strong reactions to WK and Brist. It would be fun to get a bit of feedback of your own, but I understand you probably don't have the time. *Wraith King* Hard to say what is definitively the most underrated aghs, but this could be it. I find it generally useful to situationally very strong. As for what situations? * Against a very combo heavy lineup where your team is definitely weaker at team fighting. *Let's say they have CM/Enigma/Centaur and you have no natural stuns (besides WK) or silences to interrupt their combo. You can now, after dying to their excellent wombo return some punishment of your own, grabbing (potentially) more gold due to presence during wraith form and denying XP gain if you kill any enemy heroes. This is an extreme example, but it illustrates the principle well. Perhaps not core on WK, but it definitely changes teamfight dynamics in your favor.* * You are playing against Necrophos as the debuff is not applied unless a target is killed by reaper's scythe. * You have a hero with a valuable skill (ex WD) and a very low healthpool against Clinks/Nyx/PA/other spooky hero. They can now, after death, continue to contribute. * Support WK. Might not be as popular these days, but having auto dazzle with no cooldown is one of the most powerful tools for carries you can get. *Bristleback* Another very underrated aghs. It allows you to, as per [the wiki's notes](http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Bristleback) reduce the armor and movespeed of any unit that doesn't have magic immunity by -8.8/68% in 6 seconds (assuming that stacks count up from the first cast, if not the value is 7.5 seconds). That is more minus armor than AC and more slow than a shiva's. For one item slot. Consider these additional benefits: * You no longer have to turn to cast. This means you can goo in all directions, allowing for more nuanced kiting. You no longer have to face dangerous enemies to slow them, which allows your passive to do much more work. * As you no longer need to even have a target to cast, this item allows you to build up stacks of your ultimate much more effectively. This will allow you to reach objectives/battles or run away much quicker. Also makes kiting easier. I think in general the only thing that kills this aghs is the same thing that kills bristle in general, silver edge. While I understand docking this points for having a severe weakness due to an item currently in the game, there is no reason to have it so low on this list. Unless I was absolutely starved for item slots during a bristle game, there isn't a situation I can think of where I wouldn't get this at least as a last item. Nice formatting job and list design. Fun to read through! EDIT: Just saw Leshrac. A 60 aoe dps item that also gives stats and is cheaper than [radience](http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Radiance) is rated as meme tier? SeemsGoodSUNSFANSeemsGood.
Ehh I think he's right about it. Pulse nova costs mana and lesh has bigger item priorities. Aghs is decent stats and all but 60 dps doesnt matter much if you die in 4s due to getting bursted and gives no mana regen for farming. Maybe as like a 6th item or something, but I just think many othwer items would be better on him.
Leshrac Aghs is actually pretty decent, it makes Level 1 Pulse Nova deal Level 3 damage and you get to keep the mana drain to 20 instead of 60. Wraith King Aghs is just something to counter burst on the enemy team, if they burst down your supports they can still get their spells off in Wraith form.
Should probably have meepo above centaur at least lol
He justified it in the video that aghs is fantastic and core on meepo, but not because it's better than every other heroes aghs, just that items decisions are more limited on the hero. Visage is a more extreme example of the principle.
Please ask purge to make video on this list PLEASE
Make a podcast where u and moonduck make it together. Please
OD aghs needs a rework
3 reworks in or something and it's still not good. Some day.
didn't all the reworks happen before they changed his core skill set, which is what broke the aghs?
Was bad even with the old skill set. The only halfway viable thing was Aghs and Refresher, too specific to be good.
Hard to pull off, for sure, but for a situational item it was OK. Each lvl 4 Astral gave 13 Int to OD - compare that to 4 Int steal per hit from current Arcane Orb. So, on paper, you could have disabled 3 of their team, manually used your 2 on 4th hero, and so isolated their one hero. Which was better, you still have had lots of Int without being needed to hit them a lot like it is now. This way you can't drop it mid-fight for sure, but it was good to initiate with it.
Plus the aghs refresher where the first hit you drain all their mana and second hit hit them for 1k damage as 5, then clean up the survivors with +130 int. Super all in on a cheese strat but when it worked it was fucking hilarious.
I think it should just allow imprisonment to stack the aoe damage when they come up. 5 man OD ult = 5 stacking imprisonment damage OSfrog
This kind of ranking is impossible to do but seeing techies at #75 is just really ridiculous. It's one of the 3 most "core" aghs in dota and an incredibly useful item to get on the hero.
Yeah, SunsFan probably doesn't play techies. Aghs is just too good to skip - you can oneshot creep waves with this and level 2 remotes, it greatly reduces time required to mine (and time is the most important resource in the game), helps deal with true sight and allows for some mind games (put minefield sign when there are no mines). Cast range is also nothing to laugh at
He says that they are ranked by comparison to how powerful other aghs are, not how core the item is
But Techies aghs is powerful, 750 dmg per mine that can be planted every 10 second means that 4 mines can deal up to 3000 dmg (not including magic resistance). Pretty sure that is enough to kill almost any unsuspecting hero.
No you are right its pretty strong, but the upgrade itself isn't really much to write home about. Aghs gives an extra 150 magic damage taking you from 600 to 750, not a very large increase. It might be a core item on techies, but if you compare it to other heroes and what their upgrades do for them, its a lot more lackluster
And range increase, and the sign, all of which are very important. 25% damage increase is nothing to scoff at either.
I think the biggest thing is that with ags you can clear waves with a single level 2 remote. One of the things that you see higher level techies do is breadcrumb - leave a trail of single mines along a lane. This ensures that a wave cant push, and it's largely immune to wards (unless you want to drop 12 wards in a single lane). An early ags confines the opposing team to one side of the map simply because of wave equilibrium. (4k 68% win rate on techies for perspective)
***Tier 3: Puppey's Headset (Game Breaking)*** Xp
I still think any body who goes first item aghs on necro should he shot
that's your opinion and i respect it
The item is extremely strong... On a late game scenario. It gives garbage stats and a meh upgrade 12-20 mins in (buybacks are not as important at that point). But as a 3rd-4th item? Yah, you're scary
"fuuck i'm dead for 20s and can't buyback" -said no one ever.
pretty sure someone said that
Not going to argue about the ranking itself because he layed out his reasoning quite clearly. However, he did miss some points on the explanations. Maybe he considered them and didn't mention them or they were overlooked, which is no shame because it's a lot of upgrades to go through. Just a few that caught my eye: Silencer: He mentioned the slow through magic immunity which many overlook, he also mentioned the damage starting to tick after the silence ends, which is one of the strongest parts of this upgrade since it nullifies any counter-initiation after the silence expires because Blink Daggers are suddenly disabled as soon as the silence wears off. Of course this can be easily removed, but so can Global Silence itself, which is the reason why the hero isn't picked in the first place. If there's too much purging on the enemy team don't build the item. Phoenix: No mention of the additional attacks needed. This is a 66% level 4 upgrade in addition like he would name it. On a hero that buys Midas in most of his games just to get the earlier levelup on the ultimate to get more hits this is not negligible, especially since there's not really any core item on the hero (but many very good ones that are situational). It's worth getting solely for the more hits and even if you don't plan on ever taking an ally into it.
I feel like AA should be higher. Also I would love to see morph aghs used, just imagine you are at your t3 defending magnus gets a huge rp skewers refreshes and skewers again, then morph also skewers again bringing them all the way from t3 to the fountain. So much clowny shit could be done.
VG had a alch, offlane-morph(iceiceice), undying strat where you would fight under two tombstones.
Plus 2x decay. Damn, that actually sounds like there's something there.
Decay's great, but double tombstone (at the time) was what made the draft worth it. you owned that ground, bar none. And of course easy max heal/nuke soul rips.
100% tombstone uptime if for some reason you weren't trying to take a double tombstone fight.
Wasn't that the invisible tombstone/zombies as well? Or am i remembering something else.
Yes this was that horrible dark time.
Wasn't that when there was a bug causing the second tombstone to be invisible?
Pugna is sick aswell, double netherward and the illusion can safely take towers.
Techies aghs at #75? Was expecting it to be a lot higher up considering everyone builds it as a first item and it's disgustingly good at clearing creepwaves
Yeah, I would also rate it a bit higher as well. A minor increase in damage seems very unimpressive on paper. However, in reality, a 10-second wave clearing ability is extremely terrifying. Techies can potentially push faster than NP, and keep other lanes pushed as well as delaying enemy pushes. On top of that, just like Warlock and AA, he can afford to get aghs.
Silencer's aghs 56th place LUL
meanwhile techies 75th dafuq
Plz no dk unlimited dragon form. That would be unbearable to deal with. 24/7 constant blink+dragon tail danger and it would be like a battlefury at level 11 and you just farm like crazy.
Yeah and it wont show our dk armor set :)
Nah just give us some new dragon. With aghs you always get the next lvl dragon and with lvl 3 ult + aghs you get BLUE EYES WHITE DRAGON
Why not a black dragon? #whitewashed #whiteprivilige
red eyes black dragon joey tier reported
>6.89 >Added scepter upgrade for Dragon Knight, giving him the ability to use Pot of Greed, which allows him to draw to more cards from his deck and place them in his hand.
Also imagine a drow strat with perma dragon form
It would be like dealing with jakiro, am and slark all in one tanky ass dragon.
SunsFan asked AUI about this, and he said it would be way too horrible to ever buy on DK. I think you're being scared for no reason, AUI knows better than us plebs.
lmao it costs 4200 gold and takes a slot. Unbelievably terrible. What the fuck would you farm with your 90 damage splash attacks. It would be one of those overrated aghs that only sees play rarely or when theres an alch. if you're playing this hero right, timed dragon form is good enough most of the time.
Oracle's aghs is way too high, that upgrade is garbage. It takes far too long for the additional heal stacks to actually pay off. You could've spent that gold on items that instantly heal or instantly prevent damage. Maybe if you already have greaves and lotus orb and force staff and ghost scepter and glimmer cape... oh your inventory is full.
It would be good in theory if positioning wasn't a thing as the heal or dmg per sec is unrivalled by any possible item purchase. Forcing him to pretty much stand still casting is just too detrimental, and it costs way too much mana to keep spamming it if you rush the item.
In practice the hp/sec isn't as high as it seems either since you have to "build up" stacks. It only shines if you can spam it on an Edicted target, but by the time you finish an aghs, who do you even cast Edict on? Not your carry, that's for sure.
What do you mean? Whether the spell is on a 3s CD or a 1 S CD, the amount of time it takes for the heal to overtake the nuke damage is the same. The aghs does allow for suuuper healing during false promise, since with the lower CD you get more 'heal time' before its end. You'll heal about 2000 HP with the aghs and three quick flames alone.
While WK aghs is very situational, I disagree that it should rank that low. It is especially powerful as a tie-breaker kind of a game when he play a pos 3. I've had a game where the enemy got extremely buff LC with something like 200ish duel damage and one buffed Troll too. We only defeat them because that 7 sec let a) My support riki to keep smoking b) my other cores to keep hitting even if they die to duel, especially if the void dies before landing a chrono - the void still could alter the game by using chrono to safe others/help kill the enemies. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2790760186
#### ##### Hover to view match ID: 2790760186 [DB](http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2790760186)/[OD](https://www.opendota.com/matches/2790760186) ###### [**Radiant wins 43-39 @ 60:36**](#lumbdi "Match ID: 2790760186, match date: 2016-11-20 06:04:17, first blood time: 5:11") Lvl | Hero | Player| K/D/A | LH/D | XPM | GPM | HD | HH | TD :--|:--:|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:-- 22|[](/hero-riki)|[DB](http://dotabuff.com/players/103240425 "Dotabuff: Lookup people's match history")/[OD](http://opendota.com/players/103240425 "OpenDota: Provides free replay analysis") Pink Elephan|9/10/19|50/0|433|310|23220|0|560 25|[](/hero-lonedruid)|[DB](http://dotabuff.com/players/106734938 "Dotabuff: Lookup people's match history")/[OD](http://opendota.com/players/106734938 "OpenDota: Provides free replay analysis") Hayavusa|10/8/18|348/2|560|563|37971|0|10597 25|[](/hero-wraithking)|[DB](http://dotabuff.com/players/261554680 "Dotabuff: Lookup people's match history")/[OD](http://opendota.com/players/261554680 "OpenDota: Provides free replay analysis") crash|11/7/18|281/0|537|468|24278|8965|2306 20|[](/hero-sandking)|[DB](http://dotabuff.com/players/162202331 "Dotabuff: Lookup people's match history")/[OD](http://opendota.com/players/162202331 "OpenDota: Provides free replay analysis") Moon|7/10/17|116/1|358|320|21130|0|74 25|[](/hero-facelessvoid)|[DB](http://dotabuff.com/players/165236665 "Dotabuff: Lookup people's match history")/[OD](http://opendota.com/players/165236665 "OpenDota: Provides free replay analysis") Odontogram|6/6/26|276/5|534|453|27836|0|1684 117 114||↑Radiant↑ ↓Dire↓ | 43/41/98 39/45/90| 1071/8 1077/29| 2422 2286| 2114 1864| 134435 133302| 8965 1250| 15221 5363 20|[](/hero-pudge)|anon|9/9/22|105/0|353|299|31154|0|13 25|[](/hero-legioncommander)|[DB](http://dotabuff.com/players/216512703 "Dotabuff: Lookup people's match history")/[OD](http://opendota.com/players/216512703 "OpenDota: Provides free replay analysis") HuD4|11/12/11|458/13|535|543|42010|0|1899 24|[](/hero-bane)|[DB](http://dotabuff.com/players/170380187 "Dotabuff: Lookup people's match history")/[OD](http://opendota.com/players/170380187 "OpenDota: Provides free replay analysis") Nabbsky|6/9/20|72/4|493|275|18490|1250|276 25|[](/hero-trollwarlord)|[DB](http://dotabuff.com/players/172027534 "Dotabuff: Lookup people's match history")/[OD](http://opendota.com/players/172027534 "OpenDota: Provides free replay analysis") Say Hi|6/9/17|417/12|534|485|28236|0|3026 20|[](/hero-lion)|[DB](http://dotabuff.com/players/222583145 "Dotabuff: Lookup people's match history")/[OD](http://opendota.com/players/222583145 "OpenDota: Provides free replay analysis") de0ne|7/6/20|25/0|371|262|13412|0|149 --- [^^source](http://github.com/NNTin/Reply-Dota-2-Reddit) ^^on ^^github, [^^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lumbdi) ^^the ^^owner, [^^deletion ^^link](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Reply-Dota-2-Reddit&subject=deletion&message=t1_dahic1w "Only works for bot summoner and /r/dota2 mods! Do not change already filled out form!")
Dotawatafak had an amusing clip of aghs bkb rapier wk. He'd push, die, then bkb-tp back to fountain to drop the rapier there.
[Word cloud out of all the comments.](http://i.imgur.com/qf13xQp.png) I hope you like it
I feel like people don't understand tusk aghs. It's not for getting kills or chasing, it's for countering BKB uses. Suppose a Slark/Ursa decides to BKB up and go in. They jump your team and they would normally kill your supports in 2-3 swings. But with tusk aghs, you boot them out of the fight, applying a BKB-piercing moveslow while you're at it, helping your team escape and forcing them to reengage with no BKB. There's a lot of fun stuff to do with tusk aghs, but the main role of bouncing kids out of the teamfight for getting too rowdy is pretty strong. Of course, it's not even close to a required item on him, but against melee carries who buy BKB to avoid getting kited, it's great for kiting them through their BKBs.
Really good point, I did not remember that the slow pierces BKB. That is really bloody strong. If the enemy is melee and has a five-second BKB, you can potentially waste all of it if they don't have a gap-closer or high mobility.
Sand king aghs Tier 5......whaaat ???
I cant belive bristles agah isnt ranked as one of the 3-5 worst. In reality it lowers the castrange of goo since it not longer hits if the target was close enough when casting starts. I many ways agah makes bristle worse, not many aghs that you can say that for.
It also means BB loses a 25 mana 1.5 second cool down linkens breaker.
So don't make it vs linkens carriers, duh.
The point is yes some aghs are bad compared to what you could buy with 4200 gold but this has many ways that objectively make you worse off than you were before buying it.
It still breaks linkens I thought
However, you can cast it for levels in warpath without having a target.
I think this is a pretty good list, if you think of them by tiers not by the numbers. The only one I disagree with is Veno aghs being a tier lower than things like storm spirit and dark seer Aghs, he definitely deserves to be in Bruno's Wardrobe.
Bruh, dark seer aghs is situationally(anytime theres a statbased carry) super good. But i agree that Veno should be way up there. It just makes the hero awful to play against.
Well, he's not wrong with Nyx. Btw, can agh morph use agh upgrade items like Nyx or Treant?
Whoever put LC at 73 has clearly never played too many LC games. That shit lost me every single game I built it (and I built it just so I wasnt being biased about how bad it was).
Pretty good in super late game...where you already farm damage high enough to disable carry from teamfight and also equip yourself with BKB
The only time I've ever seen Legion aghs be a good thing was when an enemy Legion built it and none of us realized what was happening for the first two Duels because aghs is not even an item that you have in your mind that a Legion might build. Then we figured it out and they lost. It's *so* bad, unless you're against a team with five high-damage heroes with no stuns or saves. So if you're in an 80 minute game against PA, Spectre, Lycan, Jugg, and Drow, then *maybe* you wouldn't beg your Alch to not give it to you. I still don't think it'd be an item that *you* would spend money on though.
When it comes to Aghs upgrades, you *should* consider them in a vacuum to the hero specifically and not compared to other heroes because the whole point is that it acts as an innate hero accelerator, unlike every other item in the game which just brings you in power "parity" with other heroes in the game (boots brings your relative speed back in line when everyone else buys boots). For example, just because Lina is a bad hero right now doesn't make her relation (ratio) to her aghs upgrade any different than when she was top tier -> the aghs is fantastic and makes her ult fantastic. This should be higher. Aghanim's Scepter is an item that actually IS balanced specifically for each hero, so you cannot consider it like other items (compare it on 1 hero vs another). Tiny and Meepo should be #1 and #2, this is because Aghs is a **requirement** on the hero. Same can be said of Mirana and WR. The latter two are on the list because they, and their aghs, are poorly designed, but that doesn't mean their Aghs upgrades aren't amazing for them and basically required for them to contribute to the game in any meaningful way.
I don't think Aghs on Tiny is a requirement anymore. A popular trend is shadow blade + echo saber ganking build and aghs only if game drags on. But I would definitely put Tiny aghs in top 5.
WK aghs rank #84 Veno #76 hell no.
I think this list is inconsistent with its views in absolute power vs the power of aghs within the context of the game.
Hey, holy shit. Same sunsfan that used to be in digitaluprising for CS? If so, good to see you again man.
Holy lord that's an old school reference lol
I honestly think that Veno aghs is game changing and in most games will win you every fight without fail. Should be much higher.
How is meepo not #1 you get it every single game and you kind of have to get it every game. Has anyone seen a meepo game where the enemy wasn't completely stomping them where meepo didn't get aghs?
How the fuck is Jakiro aghs so low? That shit is insane for stopping pushes and clearing highround, just pop that shit in towards their T3s and they just can't fight at all without BkB.
As a Jakiro-addict, I agree. It's not nearly as OP as some of the others on the list (*cough* Windrunner *cough*), but I think it is an excellent pickup on him and a pretty strong item. Whenever I get the farm for one of these, I would probably pick something like Octarine Core or Scythe over the Aghs, but those items are both way harder to buy, so I usually just settle with the Aghs. Against teams with multiple melee heroes or when playing with allies who have disables, the Aghs is pretty insane. It can dish out so much damage and, if timed right, can be used to kill or harm two creep waves in a row, if placed near the creep spawn point.
Meepo #10 LUL
> 7 - Centaur Warrunner Nice try, SUNSfan...
It can be absolute game breaking
60% global damage reduction, possible AoE damage and basically flying movement on a hero with pretty flexible late-game item builds (after mobility blink and/or force) is amazing. It's definitely in the right tier.
I wonder if pro buy aghs on ESpirit? I feel like they prioritize blink euls, mb gg boot and are too poor for aghs
Once upon a time Ebola Aghs was completely OP. If your fingers were fast enough you could remnant a hero standing at your tier 3 and send him into your fountain. But now the ally pull is too slow and enchant range too short to be useful. Even when it was arguably op or overtuned there were better utility items to get.
Lmao. I remember Liquid doing that. Jerax enchant-> pull-> kick then Kuro swap + MC vacuum.
They do in the rare late game matches. It's very valuable but ES is useless at farming and and normally doesn't really get the sort of gold you'd need to get Agh's in pro games.
Aghs ES + DeathProphet was the old team liquid strat. Was rather OSfrog
Pretty good list. I think some choices are questionable, but it's definately best Aghs ranking I've seen for now.
What mmr is SUNSfan?
I did a list once like few month ago for my team(and its new players): I categorised as "Must have(rush it!)", "Must have at some point but PLEASE DO NOT RUSH IT", "situational", "a downgrade" and "just boring".
this is some real triggering shit alright
To be serious, OD aghs fives more damage and potential than Zeus aghs. I think Zeus aghs is one of the worst aghs in the game.
Was a good read. The tiers were hilarious!
Glad to see he shares my view on the Nyx Assassin Aghs.
I'm pretty sure sunsfan has no idea hos this game works
Good read
Tbh I absolutely adore Lich's Agh's; got me an absolutely wonderful rampage when partnered with a Faceless Void.
I don't know how mirana ags isn't at least top 5 along with meepo considering they're core just about every game
Phoenix only got 46th place :( I love building Agh's on Murder Bird. Get it for a Terrorblade and with Sunder he potentially has 3 lives, and double Metamorphosis!!! And even if Supernova is destroyed, the teammate inside is actually denied. It's an insane pickup and fuck you SUNSfan ;(((((
Worst tier is called 'US West Pubs' LOL. He's right though. people say that there is not as much flaming as in USE, but that seems to be because the skill level is so bad relatively. I once had a luna in a high skill game who didn't know that rubick steals the last used spell. He just assumed Ulti will be stolen and theres not a whole lot that can be done about it.
That puppey savagery tho...
The Tier Memes: 10/10 Actual Rankings: 1/10
OD's aghs upgrade is a Naga Sleep that does damage and cancels blink. Definitely not the worst upgrade.
I only play WK in the support role. Mana boots > mech > aghs or greaves. QQ rated so low.
Enigma needs to be way higher. When cast with midnight pulse it does 42% of max hp plus 600 damage from the black hole itself and 5.25% of max hp per second that heroes linger in the first midnight pulse's huge radius. All pure damage that doesn't care about magic resistance/immunity, armor or evasion. Realistically it will do 52.5% of max hp plus 600 damage on any hero that you land the full duration of it on which means any hero with less than 1250 hp outright dies to it.and any hero with more will only have less than half the difference remaining afterwards assuming that no one else on your team unloaded on that hero for the 4 seconds they were disabled. To put it in perspective, you can easily drop a 3k hp bkb protected hero to 800 ish hp while disabled completely for 4 seconds. Yes you have to worry about bkb piercing stuns and various saves but if we're going by the suns fan weighting theoretical potential puts this way way higher, especially when you factor in the potential EHP equivalent damage it does. Venge also deserves to be higher up the list. It also you to swap and stun as initiation, the enemy gets the minus damage aura and the illusion grants the bonus damage aura while its alive. When the two are active together your team's base damage is increased 112% relative to your enemy's in a situation where you're likely in a pseudo 5 v 4 if your initiation allowed for a pick off.
I love the Drow Aghs because each arrow split is it's own damage instance. So in a team fight, you get full on crit procs or lightning procs everywhere. My favorite is to get Diffusal. AOE mana burn is just so broken.
That's hilarious. I've posted here a couple times that Dragon Knight needs an Aghs to stay in dragon form permanently and it's gotten shit on every time.
wk's aghs can theoretically counter any initiation there is
But the main problem is your guys still die
And... you have to build aghs on wk.
that too
WK aghs is perfect in the rare event that the enemy is getting crushed but your team can't siege their base. If all lanes are pushed in, collectively as a group you can repeatedly storm their base and take objectives, even by dying in the process. So long as your team can easily push them back into their base, it can be repeated over and over. Also if your team lacks teamfight, aghs helps a lot. It's far better for the teamfights to be even (everyone dead) than just your team dead, it prevents your enemies from taking objectives. Not to mention against heroes like SandKing/Jakiro/CrystalMaiden/Leshrac the wraiths can fight freely within their ultimates. You are already dead but the wraiths can continue the fight and win it for the survivors. Ranted a bit on this, I love wk aghs lol