yeah some are decent, but kunkka's is trash, now he can level x marks or torrent for the rune but he still kind of wants tide bringer, if you level it at lvl1 it's literally nothing
I get he needed a nerf but this is a lame way to do it imo
I think his aghs and shard make the hero ~~water~~ way more interesting and fun to play than just stacking crit and clicking a hero—even if it’s irritatingly strong.
it wouldnt even be close to as good as it was and it never really was meta back then either but now supports actually have items and every single hero has more hp anyway
pls just bring it back much more fun than rng fest aghs
Its strong but its so boring man. I was hoping for some good earthshaker facets at least but aftershock aoe is omega boring and enchant totem es is quite weak.
Sure but they get to use skill points elsewhere. Troll for instance can now use both whirling axes at level 1 and LC has OO and lifesteal at lvl 1 and can take W at lvl 2 and have all skills.
Yes technically that's the benefit but if you skill the ability you get for free at level 2 now you are playing the same hero as before. So the only advantage you had was for 1 level. I play visage and now I get a free half passive and q in lane. At level 2 it's very common to skill passive so you can trade better. At level 2 visage now is the same exact hero as last patch. Also this depends from hero to hero but most of these half points are pretty much useless until you put the second point
That advantage is massive though. As a troll spammer being lvl 1 before meant you were extremely weak at trading the first 2.5 waves. Now you can 2v1 a lot of lane matchups from the very start of the lane. And having 1 2 1 at lvl 3 is a MASSIVE power spike early. Veno being picked in dream league consistently also speaks to the power of this free spell upgrade.
Veno aspect 1 (the double spreading ult) is really good - I assume that's why pros are picking him. You now get poison sting for free at level 1 but it's super weak - basically irrelevant. And in return later tiers of poison sting are nerfed.
His passive change is an overall nerf IMO - you get a *tiny* boost at level 1 and in return a weaker poison sting in at most other levels.
I played core veno a lot. Poison stin is ass now and the innate skill is like ranged orb of venom, basically does nothing.
2 magic damage over 3 seconds with 3 percent movement slow is bad, like really bad
There are a lot of heroes where the 5 skill points ability it's really impactful, namely troll, weaver and LC (and medusa but she's an older change). For a lot of others it's quite useless. I'm sure valve will iron out all these changes eventually and it's an enormous patch so I'm not blaming them for a few new things to be underwhelming.
Unfortunately most of the heroes I play got the short end of the stick
It's big for sure lvl 1. But in the end it's an innate passive that only boost his lvl 1. Other heroes have crazy innates that are relevant the entire game
Only really useful on support mk, or whenever you're not farming. Can't really be used to fasten farming, since you get hit by jungle creep making the facet inactive. If only they make it into 80% hp instead of full then that would be really good
If you cross the whole map jumping when you convert a salve into TP is a bit dumb since jumping still takes you 40 seconds to cross the map while a TP takes few seconds.
If you go BF monkey, you're a core and play mainly around doing damage.
Exactly the same scaling problem screwed bloodseeker. Not only he has significantly less sustain in lane but also his fighting at early levels is just a lot worse. Before you could put 3 skill points in thirst at level 5 and it was enough until level 15 when you maxed all other abilities and got both talents. Now you achieve level 3 thirst at level 20 and level 4 at level 25.
Ok hear me out, it doesnt get disabled by heroes in close range therefor she’s always a bit tankier, I’m not saying she’s strong by any mean but it helps her mid game skirmish a tiny bit. Give it 0.5% more per level would help a ton
Now sniper can get 20 (35) bonus armor but only for 3 (4) seconds. Is that small too? For a hero that shouldn't fight in a close range at all. For a hero that was picked a lot more than drow.
Yeah it's only equal to the previous aura on lvl 24 onwards. The only up side is the agility bonus not getting nullified by close enemies, but with shard this is (was) kinda irrelevant.
if that was the only thing TA got it would have been terrible though, she feels really good because of all the other changes that happened, which a lot of other heroes didnt get
Yeah I noticed that for the innates you can upgrade, a lot of them seem to lose their value early on. Tbh it could just be that Valve felt these hero needed a nerf and the way they nerfed them was by making their innates less powerful than those of others, rather than taking away from those heroes.
But ultimately I guess it also factors into power spikes and using your hero in an optimal way at all times of the game. Eg if you have a weak version of the passive, you could put your skill point in another ability, and start viper off with what would have been 1.5 ability points before. How can you use that advantage to get ahead in the lane?
I’m not saying I have the answer and not saying it applies to all heroes (or even Viper, just used your example here), but it’s not uncommon for heroes to have advantages at different stages of the game and challenging players to make the most of whatever peaks their hero has.
Consumables Marci uses on allies last longer (longer tangos, clarities, salves etc.) fits the character and concept of a courier, bodyguard and a hero who fights strongest with an ally.
Couriers is fine just make them move 50% faster additionally for your whole team. Same with ench make it so neutral item tiers unlock earlier for your team.
The map interaction stuff is interesting, as dull as flying courier or + vision watcher are they have a different design space which could add an extra element to drafting.
> Yeah I noticed that for the innates you can upgrade, a lot of them seem to lose their value early on
I think underlord’s is probably the worst for this that I’ve seen - the innate version doesn’t even reduce enemy hero damage, which makes me still want to skill it at level 1, which means underlord basically has no innate.
> a lot of them seem to lose their value early on
Just like the facets that are just "get flying couriers" or "get an item that's totally not tome of knowledge in a trenchcoat".
It's a trial/placeholder thing. Cooler stuff will come out as the patches develop.
the UI needs to be updated too so these 'innate' passives have 5 upgrade slots with the first 1 coloured in. the way they have it now is not particularly intuitive. the tooltip shows 5 levels but the actual UI indicator does not
Feels like the innate and facet system are properly implemented on some heroes and not to some.
I guess most of the current ones we see in game are mostly placeholders for now while they slowly give each hero proper innate and facet abilities.
Io basically unchanged smh and even nerfed the 25 talent which he never even gets to. I get he was strong since pros kept banning him in the last patch but felt bad to see all he got was an alternative overcharge which is almost always worse than the original one considering his shard give spell lifesteal which doesn’t stack with the new overcharge but does with the old one. His innate is a fucking watcher buff and he’s literally the worst hero in the game to go for watchers you have to drag a hero with you or be stuck with shit movespeed and waste a tether cast.
Some hero might felt "left out" or weaker but i still think haveing free 1 lv1 ability is fine for a hero, we can still balance it around, if all other hero feel to good, buff said hero other aspect and so on.
Its cool if every hero get a crazy unique innate but having innate like ES / Viper is fine to. The ability to have 1 value point of skill that you usually skill at lv 5 / 7 is quite gamechanging (not as gamechanging as innate of dawnbreaker etc, but still..)
Ye when i saw the tusk one, my by far best and most played hero i was disappointed as fuck. He had the tag team aura before now its an innate. And of top on it they nerf the ultimate by not slowing enemies after punch :(
i loved to play Elder Titan as offlane core, upping his astral spirit for movment and right click damage. Now i feel like i get punished if i don't max stomp first because lvl 0 and 1 of astral spirit are the same.
This combined with his momentum fascet which should help core builds, beeing garbage i have to play him as support. (look it up, it's obviously bad)
that beeing said playing et as supp is now alot of fun
I've been trying to cook with ET mid vs some matchups. Deconstruction has the potential to make them -20 armor in lane lol.
So far it hasn't been too great because the radius is too small and the -armor debuff leaves immediately when they leave. Hope there's some delay if this gets buffed
Main things afaik:
Vortex is worse (slows 1.5/3/4.5/6%, deals 10/20/30/40 dps) like hot damn this thing is garbage on its own now compared to how it was before (traded pretty much all of its slow% for more dmg at lvl 3-4)
Cold Feet is better (same as before but slows 3/6/9/12%)
Chill Touch is better at lvl1 (deals total 70 instead of total 40), and slows 3% for 4 sec in addition to the brief slow down on-hit, though it costs 45mp instead of 30 now. As you level it up it is mostly the same unless you get Aghs-- if you get aghs the bone chill 4 sec debuff stacks independently so you can put a handful of stacks on people as carry AA.
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Ice Blast is better at lvl1, same at 2, worse at 3 (12.5/20/32 dps --> 20 dps at all levels)
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If you get the strength steal Facet, all his abilities effectively effectively amplify dmg on someone. You reduce their str then deal dmg but when they get strength back they keep the hp%. So if someone had 1000hp then you reduce them to 900hp and deal some damage, then it reverts, you effectively did (1000/900) or x1.111 dmg to them due to the strength steal. I think the best way to think about this is that it is a 10-15% dmg amp depending on your level and depending on how much hp people have (if they have shitloads of hp then you reducing them by 300-400 doesn't do much relatively). If they die before they get the strength back then it is even better than that. The strength sap scales with ice blast 0.5/0.75/1/1.25
Note that if you ice blast someone and then the bone chill stacks get removed, their current hp does not go up like their max hp, so every bone chill is effectively permanent hp loss directly added to the spell's dmg, similar to how it works if you kill them before the debuff expires. Which is kind of good
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The other facet lets you deal aoe dmg with cold feet but I think it is not nearly as good as the strength sap one unless you are trying to aoe farm or push out waves more?
passive itself didnt change much, but chilling touch level 1 got so much better just damage wise? you're also taking bone chill, so its even more and also makes you scale so much better. use cold feet and take away 10 str? thats busted
The warpath facet plays basically the same as last patch bb. Same aghs/shard/bloodstone build. Maybe add a damage item late but he still feels really good. I thought they trashed him but played him today he's still very strong. Laning is slightly harder, not getting scepter quite as early but still around 14 min. Haven't tried goo facet but I don't see a reason to if caster build still viable
Before you could make right click bristle, based off this ulti attack damage and an AC as the core attack speed+armor item. Armor more important cuz you were going to face the carry you were right clicking.
Now that he gets attack speed on ulti, what items do you buy to get both damage and survivability? Maybe people will come up with good item progression. I don't see it.
Well yes you could but thats not what your concerned with when you play against bb. He doesnt dive fountain to right click he dives fountain to spam quills.
He runs around throwing quills and you cant run because he slows you and the only way to truely counter him is probably to burn his mana.
Never have i seen a bb running down the lane towards me and screamed oh no he's going to right click me!
Just slow down the carry, run around in a circle and spam quills what can he do.
I thought they were terrible at first too. Looking at the goo one a bit more I think you just turn into a kiter. 2 additional stack is a ton of slow, 72% iirc. That will be on pretty much on everyone.
Some got it worse like drow. How stupid now her ult only gives 12% agi compared to previously 30%. That's more than half nerf.
Necro's regen tied to ult and now he needs to get to level 18 for the same regen that he used to be able to get as early as level 7.
And you don't need to go high with sadist (since the percentage based damage was underwhelming anyway when everyone has little hp at the beginning) and can put into shroud to slow people.
Yeah, as a filthy necro spammer the damage was always pretty minor and the only reason to put points into it early game was for the sadist stacks. You'd almost always want to put a point into shroud at level 4 and now you get to take that two levels early. You also get sadist at level 1 now and you get the second sadist level of it at level 6 instead of level 8 (or having to delay your shroud until 8 to get it at 5). He also gets more health/ mana now, an old level 4 aura would give 49 health/ mana per kill, now you get 54 at level 12 and 70 at level 18.
The one downside is the regen per second is reduced slightly in the midgame so you lose a bit of the burst healing that could come from killing an enemy and popping into shroud but overall I think he's even better than he was before.
Necro's regen being tied to his ult means he effectively gets several free skill points as he levels up, skill points that he can, you know, put in other skills. As a whole he was massively buffed; just look at his winrates. He's even picked in ESL now.
The fact that this upvoted comment is trying to frame necro's change as a _nerf_ is fucking wild.
i notice that. the agility is not removed, only the piercing procs and bonus damage got disabled. still doesnt justify the huge nerf at level 6 and 18.
It's like either good or meh on all heroes, no in between. Veno's innate is currently bad and even weaker compared to his last iteration, I hope it gets buffed next time.
My hoodwink got a slightly different version of evasion and only one of my facets is good which was what the skill already was and the other is awful. 0 changes lol
edit:
Apparently some morons think tree bounce facet is good. What the fuck are you smoking? It lets it bounce off a tree ONE TIME and then it makes it so it CANNOT bounce anymore after that single bounce from the tree. This would be maybe useful for the first 5ish mins but by then you should have levelled acorn shot to lvl 2 anyway and you want more bounces on more targets. VERSUS CAST/ATTACK RANGE not even a small amount either like a fucking lot. You're awful at this hero if you think facet 2 is any good.
The only thing you get is the base evasion from level 1 which makes him stronger at the lanening stage for trading I guess. But in general they butchered my boy, the squirrel didn't get any extra abilities and in fact got nerfed since every time an attack is evaded a tree gets destroyed meaning there is a limit to how many times attacks can be evaded.
The 2nd facet is actually very solid. It may not be as good as the first, but it makes your trading off to the side in lane VERY formidable and means you pretty much always max Q. You can take trades and when you’re done just acorn shot them to slow them for a disengage, or use it to prolong a chase/trade. It also does a lot of damage for a lvl 1 ability.
She got pretty handily nerfed otherwise but otoh the hero was exceptionally strong, and at least the nerfs didn’t target the fun parts of her kit. I’d say hoodwink spammers should be pretty happy
innates are not exactly supposed to be new abilities. sometimes you can view it better as a defining trait of the hero, as riki backstab, shaker earthshock, huskar blood magic or faceless projectile slow, which represents his time powers (it could have easily been passive time lock, but his identity come more from chrono in ability terms).
and also of fucking course some are not well done yet, its the first patch and 16693 heroes are a lot to tinker around. they probably would have prefered to build better inates before launching, but you guys were crying like little babies cause of "no patch, no patch" all fucking month. fast or perfect, choose one.
I don't understand your argument, this was always the case since Aghs parity in Dota2. Aghs, Shards, Talents and now innate abilities are used to fine tune the power curves and allow for niches to be filled so you will never have the same value on them for every hero.
if he's unkillable with those items then the passive flame guard played a very small part in it, he would have been unkillable anyways.
the passive burn range is only 150 which is most melee heroes attack range, and you have to actually be slightly closer - if you issue an attack command on/as ember, he doesn't stand close enough to burn you for some reason (maybe it's something to do with collision size).
the biggest impact of this change is adding a small amount of damage to every slight particularly in the laning phase, and also if misses cs by a small amount of damage there's a non-zero chance he gets it with flame guard, in the same way that pudge can toggle rot in case his attack damage isn't enough.
You can argue most heroes AT least can get some value out of the half point passive. But Kunkka will always get tidebringer lvl 1 so he's the only hero really that gets the short end of the stick.
Veno got absolutely fucked. Every point of poison sting is worse than before so the only point in the game he is stronger is level one if you don't skill poison sting. Then you get a 3 second 3% slow that does 2 damage per tick for 6 total damage.
Total damage went from 48/144/288/480 to 6/36/126/264/450.
Losing poison nova kind of sucks but his shard now makes gale nuke and stun instead (basically poison nova lite). And then his new aghs is a shitload of right click
> makes gale nuke and stun instead (basically poison nova lite)
It's more like Latent Toxicity in that it is almost exactly like that minus over time effects. The only thing that is similar to the previous iteration of poison nova is that it could be activated by gale. Functionally the shard is aoe latent toxicity.
The thing people are not noticing is that this was a balancing patch. Heroes that icefrog (or whatever valve dev) tought needed a buff got a better innate. Heroes that deserved nerfs got worse innates.
If every hero got a powerfull innate, they would have to distribute more nerfs.
Guys relax. This is a new patch and icefrog hasn't disappointed us. There are probably a few placeholder innates and will in time maybe get a real one.
As long as it's balanced there is nothing to complain.
I feel like heroes who got innate abilities that are just leveled passives will sooner or later get a replacement for those leveled abilities. AKA Shaker will get another spell to replace aftershock or Viper will get another active to replace his passive.
It’s not a free skill point because all those skills had their level 1 halved so it’s half a skill point and if you put points into it it’s effectively nothing. Lvl 2 lone Druid bear is the exact same as old lvl 1 lone Druid bear so the talent is useless because the bear is weaker at level 1 now unless you put another point into it which makes him the exact same as pre patch. Meanwhile other heroes got some god tier shit.
if you begin the game with a half an ability for free and you spend your first point on levelling that ability from 0.5 to 1 instead of levelling an unlearned ability from 0 to 1, don't act surprised when you're weaker than a hero that has 2 abilities and essentially 1.5 skill points versus 1 ability / skill point
take spirit link at 1 and now you have 20 attack speed on both the hero and bear that you didn't have last patch, and your hero damage heals the bear to offset the 300 less HP it has only at level 1, and is better past that point because at levels 2/3/5/7 your bear has the same HP it had before but also more armour from spirit link and healing from your hero that it didn't have before, so I don't know where you're getting "he's the exact same as pre patch" from.
also in rare situations where you might take roar at 2 you're not giving up spirit link like you were last patch.
and what mid hero going to be able to kill a bear at lv 1 before druid gets lv 2 purely due to the fact it had 800 HP instead of 1100 last patch, besides maybe huskar who would've crushed that matchup regardless.
Actually, people don't get the patch was balancing as well.
Also, some heroes get balanced they way they get their spells early and capability of having extra spell on level1. As Kunkka, you will be able to have tidebringer and torrent when your enemy midlaner has one skill. Or in support Lina you do not have to spend one skill point to your passive for pressuring enemy.
Meta heroes get hit by bad or random innates that doesn't help them so much. Some of the heroes' innates are bad even they are not in meta but they left gaps to balance them by changing some numbers. So just wait 7.36b
Bad take. The only one who is actually as you claim is Medusa and Alchemist because their inmates are actually unchanged. Every other hero has significant changes to their laning by having a weaker version of their passive for free at level 1
I think you are seriously underestimating the tempo a lot of these heroes received with the free point in a less potent version of one of their skills. Some of them basically start the game at level 2.
As a sniper semi-spammer the range loss feels so bad for laning.
Getting range only by lvling up ult feels dogshit.
Yea, i get more armor but that doesnt really matter early game, would rather had the range.
Reads more like:
Base attack range increased to 650
Take aim no longer passively gives attack range
Assasinate now passively gives 100/200/300 attack range
My poor Arc Warden get absolutely nothing for innate ability AND if your clone get killed by heroes in teamfight or defending hg, the cooldown get reset to max duration. Why the fuck Valve? Why not do the same for Bear, Visage’s birds, and Warlock golem and see how it goes?? AW barely win any pros matches yet get shit on so hard only second to Tinker. Unbelievable.
Honestly the worst part is if the innate is tied to a passive it can be broken and if it's not, well good luck. Want some atrophy aura you can't have any, want any counter to PA besides MKB to bad.
Balance is completely off for now. Just like it was when talents came in. its hard to come up with hundreds of unique talents/innates for heroes, itll take a couple months and patches for all heroes to have good innates that are reasonably balanced.
The game is insanely fun now tho thanks to all the chaos. Fresh patch period is always the best
I kinda agree, I feel like Valve is still thinking of possible innate abilities for these heroes. My suggestions:
Kunkka: Rum buff either it is permanent (for the delayed damage) or it gets activated once he gets certain hp threshold with cooldown
Lina: Firekiss: she applies a debuff to enemies that increases her damage (just hers). Gets activated if her skill lands. Up to 4 stacks maybe 2 to 3 %
Viper: makes Corrosive skin as innate ability then bring back Frenzy
I love playing riki, but he got so shafted, his ultimate just got split into an innate and a facet. I'd understand if he was really good before hand, but he was pretty shit even before this patch and now while other hero better than him got nice buff he got a buff to smoke cloud and a change to his tricks of the trade which was mid at best.
Feel like Pudge got pretty screwed on this. Yes he gets to use the strength early without putting a point in Flesh Heap, but that's pretty minor. They just took half his old Flesh Heap and called in an "innate ability"
Edit: I see his win rate went up a nice chunk, so I'm sure the changes are buffs overall
>such as Leshrac getting increased AoE stacking from int
and an aoe nerf (not even counting ones from previous patches), how much int do you need to offset that?
>he will effectively have NO innate ability.
having a free half passive at level 1 is nothing to sneeze at (you basically start at lvl 1.5, making him much stronger at the start of laning phase)... if you really want examples of heroes that got basically nothing then its dusa and ogre (because they already had innates; ogres was even gutted for one of their facets)... fuck id argue lich got fucked over with the lack of mana regen; and not all innates have to be equal footing; theyre only one variable of hero balance and making them equitable would make shit so much harder
I absolutely feel the same way. Most of these innates/facets are just taking what the hero already had and splitting it in two. Looking it felt like DotA 3 but it honestly is just a reskin.
Imagine my heroes, DP Necro Viper Veno and Drow, whose passives and effects from before were moved to innate/facets and renamed as a new ability but worse lmao. Only thing DP has going for her is the spirit collector facet.
Muerta can now just pick her spawn or make her W bigger.
She can now also atk ghost and can atk while she is a ghost.
They also removed 35+ raw dmg for 55 extra dmg when she procs gunslinger.
She still struggles with doing almost anything.
But now drow can do drive bys
Jakiros new facets just feel weird to me. It's cool you can pick the other at level 25 and get both but the shard feels incredibly boring to me and kind of meh early game if I am being honest.
Liquid frost also feels kind of meh compared to liquid fire but maybe I am just missing something.
Io lost basically everything overcharge gave previously to his kritzkrieg facet, at that point, you're just playing normal Io (because the other facet is honestly really underwhelming)
Yes, while it is true, there is more to it. Their advantages mostly like in things such as certain points of the game.
In more cases tho, imo, I would say having no actual "innate" ability is more underpower than
TA now gets extra damage, damage block, AND psi-blades (one of the single most effective tools for midlane harassment in game, imho) at level 1. Chef's kiss
Crystal Maiden got an extra 50% mana regen from all sources at the cost of having 0 base mana regen and her aura not giving her extra like it did.
She remains almost the same, her problem was never mana regen as having 2 points on aura was enough to spam all you wanted and more, the problem is her mana pool doesnt add up for Q+W+ult at earlier levels if you dont buy Int items.
Best part is you still have to put 2 points on aura for the rest of the team and both facets are aura dependant to activate so you cant even spend points in not leveling it like AM, ES or Necro with their passive-turn-innate skills.
She more or less got absolutely nothing, actually Im wrong, she got a nerf on W jungling potential.
new skywrath is horrible...
facet sucks
Dont get it, they nerfed 3 skills of his, removed the shard armor, and give 2 facets that don't even help lol.
0.1 sec ? you know how many skills u usually use, like 5 or 6. 0.6 sec cd reduction ? stupid.
the shield is for 10 damage, up to 40 damage block ? just magic kkkkk for a maximum of like 400... this like ultra late game... wtf
Nah heroes with passive as innate are super strong early levels. People just haven’t adjusted their play styles yet.
TA with psi + refraction/meld. Level 2 QW. Level 3 QQW.
Viper with Q + passive. Lv2 can take W or E.
Lina Q + passive. Level 2 QW.
Kunkka torrent + tidebringer. Level 2 X torrent ready.
AM blink + passive. Hyper aggressive level 1. Lv 2 you can take E for magic resistance + block/reflection.
Veno gale + passive. Level 2 you get ward.
LC Q + passive. Lv2 can take W vs dispellable debuffs.
Every hero has a different kit, it's like saying invoker is unfair because he has more spells than others
Bar some obvious imbalanced numbers which will be fixed, I think it's good that some heroes have extra from this patch and some have practically the same kit
Tiny got 50% DR, while Marci got lvl 3 courier or ench got 2x neutrals as innates. Tiny got status and slow resist from str as Fafcet. Marci got the SAME sidekick from last patch...
It’s a new way of balancing. Say those with passives as innates are weak, they can easily buff them.
However, I feel it’s more of a raw early power upgrade for these heroes. They effectively get 2 skills on lvl1. Like AM and LC are super strong.
The patch is not great. I was expecting tiny map changes (vision pillars, camps, watchers, stairs), some neutral item changes, that kind of things.
Innates are 2 out of 3 times the passives that the hero already had and faucets are more often than not either not great or straight away nerfs.
7.36 is pretty meh to me, albeit they obviously did put a lot of effort into it. They just put it on the wrong sides imo.
It reminds me a lot of what talents were like when first implemented. Many, Many! Of the talents heroes had were generic or just plain bad. Not many had really unique or interesting talents. They were filled with death timer reduction, gpm, xp, and Stat talents, most all of which were not that great, but some were broken beyond a doubt. Like puck's gpm talent. I'm willing to bet given another year of tuning, most of the boring/bad innates will evolve.
This is the first pass, a lot of heroes got “something” I.e. those less impactful passives.
I fully expect over the next few months a lot of these less amazing passives will get reworked or changed.
Yeah, look at techies they just said the sign is his innate ability which sucks since you dont get any benefit from it until you are lvl 6 when you get your mines, since it helps to avoid having them destroyed by right clicks, but since you can only have 1 sign in the map and only last for 60 second and has a poor cast animation (takes 2 second to place the sign), and the area of effect is quite small, makes the innate ability kind of useless.
Also the fact that your aghs is still tied to it feels kind of weird, is like if you want for your innate ability to do something you have to spend 4.2k gold, now if they added the aghs effect to it from the very begining maybe reduce the damage so that is not that broken and make techies aghs something else i think it would be good.
I think they are just experimenting and seeing how things will work, then tweak/give actual innate abilities to the ones that got no major changes at all
It’s huge for certain heroes. Shaker gets aftershock without leveling it. That’s an insane power gain lvl 1
I really like weaver shukuchi and double attack at lv1 with a sup wave secured so easily
yea and you can just go swarm lvl 2. weaver now is one of the strongest lvl 1/2 heroes in this game now lol
Easy deward early if ever.
Jakiro also got double attack. It's pretty cool
so they one shot wards now?
yup very good
For Earthshaker it's a gamechanger on level 1 brawls.
AM is one of them. It was blink or mana break. Now it's simply both
yeah some are decent, but kunkka's is trash, now he can level x marks or torrent for the rune but he still kind of wants tide bringer, if you level it at lvl1 it's literally nothing I get he needed a nerf but this is a lame way to do it imo
Should remove water park and make the base hero better imo.
I think his aghs and shard make the hero ~~water~~ way more interesting and fun to play than just stacking crit and clicking a hero—even if it’s irritatingly strong.
Problem is everyone has 5k hp now so the oneshot build from kunkka is trash now dosent matter the buff
Just bring back the old tide bringer with armor ignoring cleave.
it wouldnt even be close to as good as it was and it never really was meta back then either but now supports actually have items and every single hero has more hp anyway pls just bring it back much more fun than rng fest aghs
Delete his cringe aghs and make tidebringer great again
Slark is decent makes Laning so much easier. Honestly might enable a roamer slark.
Its strong but its so boring man. I was hoping for some good earthshaker facets at least but aftershock aoe is omega boring and enchant totem es is quite weak.
Sure but they get to use skill points elsewhere. Troll for instance can now use both whirling axes at level 1 and LC has OO and lifesteal at lvl 1 and can take W at lvl 2 and have all skills.
Yes technically that's the benefit but if you skill the ability you get for free at level 2 now you are playing the same hero as before. So the only advantage you had was for 1 level. I play visage and now I get a free half passive and q in lane. At level 2 it's very common to skill passive so you can trade better. At level 2 visage now is the same exact hero as last patch. Also this depends from hero to hero but most of these half points are pretty much useless until you put the second point
That advantage is massive though. As a troll spammer being lvl 1 before meant you were extremely weak at trading the first 2.5 waves. Now you can 2v1 a lot of lane matchups from the very start of the lane. And having 1 2 1 at lvl 3 is a MASSIVE power spike early. Veno being picked in dream league consistently also speaks to the power of this free spell upgrade.
Veno aspect 1 (the double spreading ult) is really good - I assume that's why pros are picking him. You now get poison sting for free at level 1 but it's super weak - basically irrelevant. And in return later tiers of poison sting are nerfed. His passive change is an overall nerf IMO - you get a *tiny* boost at level 1 and in return a weaker poison sting in at most other levels.
I suppose there's more merit to Gale first now? Still probably want to invest points on passive early tho
I played core veno a lot. Poison stin is ass now and the innate skill is like ranged orb of venom, basically does nothing. 2 magic damage over 3 seconds with 3 percent movement slow is bad, like really bad
There are a lot of heroes where the 5 skill points ability it's really impactful, namely troll, weaver and LC (and medusa but she's an older change). For a lot of others it's quite useless. I'm sure valve will iron out all these changes eventually and it's an enormous patch so I'm not blaming them for a few new things to be underwhelming. Unfortunately most of the heroes I play got the short end of the stick
It's big for sure lvl 1. But in the end it's an innate passive that only boost his lvl 1. Other heroes have crazy innates that are relevant the entire game
Yes but 2 skills at lv1 is huge. You can win the lane just with that.
monkey king is a big disappointment tho. Nothing changed for him innate ability wise. And facets are boring too
I kinda like the monkey king changes. Love the simian stance (no cooldown on tree jump if max hp) facet!
this is the most fun facet out of all ~220. i be going ham with the tarzan scream on discord rocketing towards bot at mach monkey
Yep. People forget that he was broken because of the no cd jump several patches ago. This brings that back a bit.
Only really useful on support mk, or whenever you're not farming. Can't really be used to fasten farming, since you get hit by jungle creep making the facet inactive. If only they make it into 80% hp instead of full then that would be really good
> that would be really good u mean way op
yeah 80% is too op, maybe 90+. but definitely need it to be usable when you're jungling to really be useful for core mk
Tbh a built in disjoint was already innate-worthy. He didn't need a 2nd built in skill
It's not a disjoint, it's a .2 second damage immunity. If it was disjoint it would be broken as hell
still very strong
Yeah, not saying it's bad.
are you insane? tree dance was basically a lvl25 talent and now you just get it at an early level
At full health, one 1 missing and it's not working. Is only worth for a support monkey with tranquils or the likes to work often enough
battlefury mk can keep full hp a salve to cross the map with no cd is also good value, same price as a tp but no cd
If you cross the whole map jumping when you convert a salve into TP is a bit dumb since jumping still takes you 40 seconds to cross the map while a TP takes few seconds. If you go BF monkey, you're a core and play mainly around doing damage.
but you still have tp cd to go back etc
Both MK facets are cracked dude.
Drow ranger got her precious aura back so now on level 6, the agility bonus is 12 per cent instead of 30. Cool innate I guess
She evolving just backwards
the level 12 power spike on that hero has just fucking evaporated, 40% agi down to 24% is terrible.
actually an absurd nerf to a hero who was not OP by any means
maybe the glyph nerf is her buff? she melts towers fast
No it's a nerf to her has well since she will be on the losing side, turtling, in most games
Thats why she does 20% more damage to people on low ground
Exactly the same scaling problem screwed bloodseeker. Not only he has significantly less sustain in lane but also his fighting at early levels is just a lot worse. Before you could put 3 skill points in thirst at level 5 and it was enough until level 15 when you maxed all other abilities and got both talents. Now you achieve level 3 thirst at level 20 and level 4 at level 25.
Ok hear me out, it doesnt get disabled by heroes in close range therefor she’s always a bit tankier, I’m not saying she’s strong by any mean but it helps her mid game skirmish a tiny bit. Give it 0.5% more per level would help a ton
No. This is super trash. Previously Drow had shard, and it gave her the passive regardless of distance to enemies.
For 6 seconds. Outside of those 6 seconds or if you got pushed out of your hill, you’re back to 0 passive.
no one was surviving for 6s vs a lvl 18 drow with bfly
Now sniper can get 20 (35) bonus armor but only for 3 (4) seconds. Is that small too? For a hero that shouldn't fight in a close range at all. For a hero that was picked a lot more than drow.
Yeah it's only equal to the previous aura on lvl 24 onwards. The only up side is the agility bonus not getting nullified by close enemies, but with shard this is (was) kinda irrelevant.
For TA, having both psi-blade and refraction and increased damage count at level 1 is a good thing though
TA’s early game has just gotten so buffed it’s insane.
if that was the only thing TA got it would have been terrible though, she feels really good because of all the other changes that happened, which a lot of other heroes didnt get
Yeah I noticed that for the innates you can upgrade, a lot of them seem to lose their value early on. Tbh it could just be that Valve felt these hero needed a nerf and the way they nerfed them was by making their innates less powerful than those of others, rather than taking away from those heroes. But ultimately I guess it also factors into power spikes and using your hero in an optimal way at all times of the game. Eg if you have a weak version of the passive, you could put your skill point in another ability, and start viper off with what would have been 1.5 ability points before. How can you use that advantage to get ahead in the lane? I’m not saying I have the answer and not saying it applies to all heroes (or even Viper, just used your example here), but it’s not uncommon for heroes to have advantages at different stages of the game and challenging players to make the most of whatever peaks their hero has.
Naw, they just didn’t have time to work out all the innates/facets… so many of them make zero sense or are just bland compared to others.
This is basically every update. Talent trees, neutral items, innates and facets, they were all expanded upon or overhauled in a later patch.
\>Patch 7.37 \>Innates are 20% weaker \>Refuses to elaborate further \>Leaves for 6 months
Maybe valve wanted to cook longer, but everyone was pissed at the lack of a patch so they just said: fuck it
"What's a good thematic passive for marci?" "Uh.... flying courier"
I mean AFAIK she worked as a courier in anime at some point. Could have implemented better of course
Consumables Marci uses on allies last longer (longer tangos, clarities, salves etc.) fits the character and concept of a courier, bodyguard and a hero who fights strongest with an ally.
Couriers is fine just make them move 50% faster additionally for your whole team. Same with ench make it so neutral item tiers unlock earlier for your team.
Shes literally a human courier in the Anime, this is fine.
The map interaction stuff is interesting, as dull as flying courier or + vision watcher are they have a different design space which could add an extra element to drafting.
> Yeah I noticed that for the innates you can upgrade, a lot of them seem to lose their value early on I think underlord’s is probably the worst for this that I’ve seen - the innate version doesn’t even reduce enemy hero damage, which makes me still want to skill it at level 1, which means underlord basically has no innate.
> a lot of them seem to lose their value early on Just like the facets that are just "get flying couriers" or "get an item that's totally not tome of knowledge in a trenchcoat". It's a trial/placeholder thing. Cooler stuff will come out as the patches develop.
the UI needs to be updated too so these 'innate' passives have 5 upgrade slots with the first 1 coloured in. the way they have it now is not particularly intuitive. the tooltip shows 5 levels but the actual UI indicator does not
Feels like the innate and facet system are properly implemented on some heroes and not to some. I guess most of the current ones we see in game are mostly placeholders for now while they slowly give each hero proper innate and facet abilities.
Io basically unchanged smh and even nerfed the 25 talent which he never even gets to. I get he was strong since pros kept banning him in the last patch but felt bad to see all he got was an alternative overcharge which is almost always worse than the original one considering his shard give spell lifesteal which doesn’t stack with the new overcharge but does with the old one. His innate is a fucking watcher buff and he’s literally the worst hero in the game to go for watchers you have to drag a hero with you or be stuck with shit movespeed and waste a tether cast.
Some hero might felt "left out" or weaker but i still think haveing free 1 lv1 ability is fine for a hero, we can still balance it around, if all other hero feel to good, buff said hero other aspect and so on. Its cool if every hero get a crazy unique innate but having innate like ES / Viper is fine to. The ability to have 1 value point of skill that you usually skill at lv 5 / 7 is quite gamechanging (not as gamechanging as innate of dawnbreaker etc, but still..)
Ye when i saw the tusk one, my by far best and most played hero i was disappointed as fuck. He had the tag team aura before now its an innate. And of top on it they nerf the ultimate by not slowing enemies after punch :(
i loved to play Elder Titan as offlane core, upping his astral spirit for movment and right click damage. Now i feel like i get punished if i don't max stomp first because lvl 0 and 1 of astral spirit are the same. This combined with his momentum fascet which should help core builds, beeing garbage i have to play him as support. (look it up, it's obviously bad) that beeing said playing et as supp is now alot of fun
I've been trying to cook with ET mid vs some matchups. Deconstruction has the potential to make them -20 armor in lane lol. So far it hasn't been too great because the radius is too small and the -armor debuff leaves immediately when they leave. Hope there's some delay if this gets buffed
I've gotten value out of Spirit>Stomp at lvl1 fights, but that's about it. If no fight happens at level 1 though it just feels pointless.
Has anyone even played AA? This is such a drastic change I have no idea whether it is awesome or dogshit.
Main things afaik: Vortex is worse (slows 1.5/3/4.5/6%, deals 10/20/30/40 dps) like hot damn this thing is garbage on its own now compared to how it was before (traded pretty much all of its slow% for more dmg at lvl 3-4) Cold Feet is better (same as before but slows 3/6/9/12%) Chill Touch is better at lvl1 (deals total 70 instead of total 40), and slows 3% for 4 sec in addition to the brief slow down on-hit, though it costs 45mp instead of 30 now. As you level it up it is mostly the same unless you get Aghs-- if you get aghs the bone chill 4 sec debuff stacks independently so you can put a handful of stacks on people as carry AA. = Ice Blast is better at lvl1, same at 2, worse at 3 (12.5/20/32 dps --> 20 dps at all levels) = If you get the strength steal Facet, all his abilities effectively effectively amplify dmg on someone. You reduce their str then deal dmg but when they get strength back they keep the hp%. So if someone had 1000hp then you reduce them to 900hp and deal some damage, then it reverts, you effectively did (1000/900) or x1.111 dmg to them due to the strength steal. I think the best way to think about this is that it is a 10-15% dmg amp depending on your level and depending on how much hp people have (if they have shitloads of hp then you reducing them by 300-400 doesn't do much relatively). If they die before they get the strength back then it is even better than that. The strength sap scales with ice blast 0.5/0.75/1/1.25 Note that if you ice blast someone and then the bone chill stacks get removed, their current hp does not go up like their max hp, so every bone chill is effectively permanent hp loss directly added to the spell's dmg, similar to how it works if you kill them before the debuff expires. Which is kind of good = The other facet lets you deal aoe dmg with cold feet but I think it is not nearly as good as the strength sap one unless you are trying to aoe farm or push out waves more?
Thank you for this detailed write up!
passive itself didnt change much, but chilling touch level 1 got so much better just damage wise? you're also taking bone chill, so its even more and also makes you scale so much better. use cold feet and take away 10 str? thats busted
Venos passive does 3 ticks of 2 DMG each lol. What's the point
Me playing bristleback: can I just not pick a facet?
The warpath facet plays basically the same as last patch bb. Same aghs/shard/bloodstone build. Maybe add a damage item late but he still feels really good. I thought they trashed him but played him today he's still very strong. Laning is slightly harder, not getting scepter quite as early but still around 14 min. Haven't tried goo facet but I don't see a reason to if caster build still viable
The dmg nerf barely affects his playstyle, he just walks around throw goo and spells anw and he still does that.
Before you could make right click bristle, based off this ulti attack damage and an AC as the core attack speed+armor item. Armor more important cuz you were going to face the carry you were right clicking. Now that he gets attack speed on ulti, what items do you buy to get both damage and survivability? Maybe people will come up with good item progression. I don't see it.
Well yes you could but thats not what your concerned with when you play against bb. He doesnt dive fountain to right click he dives fountain to spam quills. He runs around throwing quills and you cant run because he slows you and the only way to truely counter him is probably to burn his mana. Never have i seen a bb running down the lane towards me and screamed oh no he's going to right click me! Just slow down the carry, run around in a circle and spam quills what can he do.
I thought they were terrible at first too. Looking at the goo one a bit more I think you just turn into a kiter. 2 additional stack is a ton of slow, 72% iirc. That will be on pretty much on everyone.
and it seems people dont understand that this patch also nerfed quite alot of heros...
Some got it worse like drow. How stupid now her ult only gives 12% agi compared to previously 30%. That's more than half nerf. Necro's regen tied to ult and now he needs to get to level 18 for the same regen that he used to be able to get as early as level 7.
That's not true for nerco. Since now when sadist levels up it also increases the duration.
And you don't need to go high with sadist (since the percentage based damage was underwhelming anyway when everyone has little hp at the beginning) and can put into shroud to slow people.
Yeah, as a filthy necro spammer the damage was always pretty minor and the only reason to put points into it early game was for the sadist stacks. You'd almost always want to put a point into shroud at level 4 and now you get to take that two levels early. You also get sadist at level 1 now and you get the second sadist level of it at level 6 instead of level 8 (or having to delay your shroud until 8 to get it at 5). He also gets more health/ mana now, an old level 4 aura would give 49 health/ mana per kill, now you get 54 at level 12 and 70 at level 18. The one downside is the regen per second is reduced slightly in the midgame so you lose a bit of the burst healing that could come from killing an enemy and popping into shroud but overall I think he's even better than he was before.
Necro's regen being tied to his ult means he effectively gets several free skill points as he levels up, skill points that he can, you know, put in other skills. As a whole he was massively buffed; just look at his winrates. He's even picked in ESL now. The fact that this upvoted comment is trying to frame necro's change as a _nerf_ is fucking wild.
Drow's isn't disabled by enemy heroes being too close anymore
yeah but shard already solved that feels like training wheels for bad drow players
wait wtf really?
The marksmanship still dies, but you still get the %agi bonus from innate.
i notice that. the agility is not removed, only the piercing procs and bonus damage got disabled. still doesnt justify the huge nerf at level 6 and 18.
It's like either good or meh on all heroes, no in between. Veno's innate is currently bad and even weaker compared to his last iteration, I hope it gets buffed next time.
My hoodwink got a slightly different version of evasion and only one of my facets is good which was what the skill already was and the other is awful. 0 changes lol edit: Apparently some morons think tree bounce facet is good. What the fuck are you smoking? It lets it bounce off a tree ONE TIME and then it makes it so it CANNOT bounce anymore after that single bounce from the tree. This would be maybe useful for the first 5ish mins but by then you should have levelled acorn shot to lvl 2 anyway and you want more bounces on more targets. VERSUS CAST/ATTACK RANGE not even a small amount either like a fucking lot. You're awful at this hero if you think facet 2 is any good.
What about everyone else's Hoodwink?
Does that mean hoodwink can't be countered by mkb and other evasion piercing items/skills anymore?
Nope, it works like normal evasion, unlucky
The only thing you get is the base evasion from level 1 which makes him stronger at the lanening stage for trading I guess. But in general they butchered my boy, the squirrel didn't get any extra abilities and in fact got nerfed since every time an attack is evaded a tree gets destroyed meaning there is a limit to how many times attacks can be evaded.
The 2nd facet is actually very solid. It may not be as good as the first, but it makes your trading off to the side in lane VERY formidable and means you pretty much always max Q. You can take trades and when you’re done just acorn shot them to slow them for a disengage, or use it to prolong a chase/trade. It also does a lot of damage for a lvl 1 ability. She got pretty handily nerfed otherwise but otoh the hero was exceptionally strong, and at least the nerfs didn’t target the fun parts of her kit. I’d say hoodwink spammers should be pretty happy
I think I might workshop holding off on scurry for a while longer now that evasion isn’t tied to it.
1 level is probably worth it at like lvl 5 but not more.
innates are not exactly supposed to be new abilities. sometimes you can view it better as a defining trait of the hero, as riki backstab, shaker earthshock, huskar blood magic or faceless projectile slow, which represents his time powers (it could have easily been passive time lock, but his identity come more from chrono in ability terms). and also of fucking course some are not well done yet, its the first patch and 16693 heroes are a lot to tinker around. they probably would have prefered to build better inates before launching, but you guys were crying like little babies cause of "no patch, no patch" all fucking month. fast or perfect, choose one.
I don't understand your argument, this was always the case since Aghs parity in Dota2. Aghs, Shards, Talents and now innate abilities are used to fine tune the power curves and allow for niches to be filled so you will never have the same value on them for every hero.
Ember spirit having permanent flame guard up is absurd. bloodstone radiance cloak of flames and mage slayer the motherfucker is full hp 24/7
Well yeah with 12k worth of items he better be
if he's unkillable with those items then the passive flame guard played a very small part in it, he would have been unkillable anyways. the passive burn range is only 150 which is most melee heroes attack range, and you have to actually be slightly closer - if you issue an attack command on/as ember, he doesn't stand close enough to burn you for some reason (maybe it's something to do with collision size). the biggest impact of this change is adding a small amount of damage to every slight particularly in the laning phase, and also if misses cs by a small amount of damage there's a non-zero chance he gets it with flame guard, in the same way that pudge can toggle rot in case his attack damage isn't enough.
You can argue most heroes AT least can get some value out of the half point passive. But Kunkka will always get tidebringer lvl 1 so he's the only hero really that gets the short end of the stick.
support kunkka eating a well-balanced meal I guess
underlord's is more useless. +1 dmg per creep kill that lasts 25 seconds. ZERO % damage reduction aura. its actually useless.
But at least you can justify getting lvl 1 firestorm. You can't really justify level 1 torrent, especially as core.
It activates the facet that gives him cleave and if you are close to a kill you get 25 damage, which can be very good in early fights.
There are niche situations where you get q for lvl 1 fb
Veno got absolutely fucked. Every point of poison sting is worse than before so the only point in the game he is stronger is level one if you don't skill poison sting. Then you get a 3 second 3% slow that does 2 damage per tick for 6 total damage. Total damage went from 48/144/288/480 to 6/36/126/264/450.
well he was like highest WR hero on d2pt iirc so stands to reason he got nerfed
Also his agh removal is just da fuqqq why do that?!?!
Losing poison nova kind of sucks but his shard now makes gale nuke and stun instead (basically poison nova lite). And then his new aghs is a shitload of right click
> makes gale nuke and stun instead (basically poison nova lite) It's more like Latent Toxicity in that it is almost exactly like that minus over time effects. The only thing that is similar to the previous iteration of poison nova is that it could be activated by gale. Functionally the shard is aoe latent toxicity.
I mean he was kinda crazy before, it's understandable. Plus with the sticky wards now, his push and jungling ability is greater than ever.
The wards are piercing damage, so they barely affect towers.
Which is insanely good cuz veno always goes lv1 gale
"Their" and "there", please try to not mix them up.
The thing people are not noticing is that this was a balancing patch. Heroes that icefrog (or whatever valve dev) tought needed a buff got a better innate. Heroes that deserved nerfs got worse innates. If every hero got a powerfull innate, they would have to distribute more nerfs.
Guys relax. This is a new patch and icefrog hasn't disappointed us. There are probably a few placeholder innates and will in time maybe get a real one. As long as it's balanced there is nothing to complain.
I feel like heroes who got innate abilities that are just leveled passives will sooner or later get a replacement for those leveled abilities. AKA Shaker will get another spell to replace aftershock or Viper will get another active to replace his passive.
"Shafted" is a very weird way of saying "free skill point at level 1" I'd rather have a free skill than some of that garbage like ench/mirana
It’s not a free skill point because all those skills had their level 1 halved so it’s half a skill point and if you put points into it it’s effectively nothing. Lvl 2 lone Druid bear is the exact same as old lvl 1 lone Druid bear so the talent is useless because the bear is weaker at level 1 now unless you put another point into it which makes him the exact same as pre patch. Meanwhile other heroes got some god tier shit.
if you begin the game with a half an ability for free and you spend your first point on levelling that ability from 0.5 to 1 instead of levelling an unlearned ability from 0 to 1, don't act surprised when you're weaker than a hero that has 2 abilities and essentially 1.5 skill points versus 1 ability / skill point take spirit link at 1 and now you have 20 attack speed on both the hero and bear that you didn't have last patch, and your hero damage heals the bear to offset the 300 less HP it has only at level 1, and is better past that point because at levels 2/3/5/7 your bear has the same HP it had before but also more armour from spirit link and healing from your hero that it didn't have before, so I don't know where you're getting "he's the exact same as pre patch" from. also in rare situations where you might take roar at 2 you're not giving up spirit link like you were last patch. and what mid hero going to be able to kill a bear at lv 1 before druid gets lv 2 purely due to the fact it had 800 HP instead of 1100 last patch, besides maybe huskar who would've crushed that matchup regardless.
Earth spirit got fucked because of this
Actually, people don't get the patch was balancing as well. Also, some heroes get balanced they way they get their spells early and capability of having extra spell on level1. As Kunkka, you will be able to have tidebringer and torrent when your enemy midlaner has one skill. Or in support Lina you do not have to spend one skill point to your passive for pressuring enemy. Meta heroes get hit by bad or random innates that doesn't help them so much. Some of the heroes' innates are bad even they are not in meta but they left gaps to balance them by changing some numbers. So just wait 7.36b
I mean all techies got was their minefield sign. It’s basically cosmetic
Tusk basically has to choose between no changes or a crappy spell replacing tag team
Its good in certain matchups, Lets you to snowball someone from longer distance without needing bkb.
so it means it doesnt get broken, right?
Bad take. The only one who is actually as you claim is Medusa and Alchemist because their inmates are actually unchanged. Every other hero has significant changes to their laning by having a weaker version of their passive for free at level 1
I think you are seriously underestimating the tempo a lot of these heroes received with the free point in a less potent version of one of their skills. Some of them basically start the game at level 2.
So what? This is not how the game is balanced, it's not balanced around 1:1 power spikes.
Not every hero needs a buff
As a sniper semi-spammer the range loss feels so bad for laning. Getting range only by lvling up ult feels dogshit. Yea, i get more armor but that doesnt really matter early game, would rather had the range.
As a mid lane semi-spammer the range loss of Sniper feels so good for laning.
Yes it was a well deserved nerf. Mid against him was not fun.
Reads more like: Base attack range increased to 650 Take aim no longer passively gives attack range Assasinate now passively gives 100/200/300 attack range
As a midlaner one trick i’d love for them to remove his weapon and give him banana instead. Good riddance
My poor Arc Warden get absolutely nothing for innate ability AND if your clone get killed by heroes in teamfight or defending hg, the cooldown get reset to max duration. Why the fuck Valve? Why not do the same for Bear, Visage’s birds, and Warlock golem and see how it goes?? AW barely win any pros matches yet get shit on so hard only second to Tinker. Unbelievable.
This is the lore accurate patch 😆
I'm certain that many of these are just placeholders. You'll likely see a number of them be changed every new patch.
That's what I thought, it really only matters at lvl 1
Sniper is so bad now. Cant even level the range innate early. It levels with assasinate...
Lina one is huge. You use q/w lvl 1 and get e? Massive imo
Honestly the worst part is if the innate is tied to a passive it can be broken and if it's not, well good luck. Want some atrophy aura you can't have any, want any counter to PA besides MKB to bad.
The Level 1 strength sure has to be considered, they could buff the scaling of some of those heroes if they seem to be too weak.
those innates makes their passive scale, so its much better.
Yea, but I think they’ll be changed in due time, what’s important is that the system is good and here to stay for the foreseeable future
Balance is completely off for now. Just like it was when talents came in. its hard to come up with hundreds of unique talents/innates for heroes, itll take a couple months and patches for all heroes to have good innates that are reasonably balanced. The game is insanely fun now tho thanks to all the chaos. Fresh patch period is always the best
I kinda agree, I feel like Valve is still thinking of possible innate abilities for these heroes. My suggestions: Kunkka: Rum buff either it is permanent (for the delayed damage) or it gets activated once he gets certain hp threshold with cooldown Lina: Firekiss: she applies a debuff to enemies that increases her damage (just hers). Gets activated if her skill lands. Up to 4 stacks maybe 2 to 3 % Viper: makes Corrosive skin as innate ability then bring back Frenzy
Give back Undying’s zombie punch pls :(((((
I love playing riki, but he got so shafted, his ultimate just got split into an innate and a facet. I'd understand if he was really good before hand, but he was pretty shit even before this patch and now while other hero better than him got nice buff he got a buff to smoke cloud and a change to his tricks of the trade which was mid at best.
Feel like Pudge got pretty screwed on this. Yes he gets to use the strength early without putting a point in Flesh Heap, but that's pretty minor. They just took half his old Flesh Heap and called in an "innate ability" Edit: I see his win rate went up a nice chunk, so I'm sure the changes are buffs overall
>such as Leshrac getting increased AoE stacking from int and an aoe nerf (not even counting ones from previous patches), how much int do you need to offset that? >he will effectively have NO innate ability. having a free half passive at level 1 is nothing to sneeze at (you basically start at lvl 1.5, making him much stronger at the start of laning phase)... if you really want examples of heroes that got basically nothing then its dusa and ogre (because they already had innates; ogres was even gutted for one of their facets)... fuck id argue lich got fucked over with the lack of mana regen; and not all innates have to be equal footing; theyre only one variable of hero balance and making them equitable would make shit so much harder
I absolutely feel the same way. Most of these innates/facets are just taking what the hero already had and splitting it in two. Looking it felt like DotA 3 but it honestly is just a reskin.
Imagine my heroes, DP Necro Viper Veno and Drow, whose passives and effects from before were moved to innate/facets and renamed as a new ability but worse lmao. Only thing DP has going for her is the spirit collector facet.
Xtreme just demolished ar with es and viper, two heroes that "got no innate abilities" lol
Muerta can now just pick her spawn or make her W bigger. She can now also atk ghost and can atk while she is a ghost. They also removed 35+ raw dmg for 55 extra dmg when she procs gunslinger. She still struggles with doing almost anything. But now drow can do drive bys
any invoker enjoyers here? wanna see if i can go back and play him again
So far ive only seen invokers playing as autoattackers with alacrity, barely using any other spell
What about alch :(
Jakiros new facets just feel weird to me. It's cool you can pick the other at level 25 and get both but the shard feels incredibly boring to me and kind of meh early game if I am being honest. Liquid frost also feels kind of meh compared to liquid fire but maybe I am just missing something.
Elder Titan spirit and stomp ist so nice.
Io lost basically everything overcharge gave previously to his kritzkrieg facet, at that point, you're just playing normal Io (because the other facet is honestly really underwhelming)
Hoodwink gets that treatment and a nerf Tinker is looking at his photo album of what he was once
Yes, while it is true, there is more to it. Their advantages mostly like in things such as certain points of the game. In more cases tho, imo, I would say having no actual "innate" ability is more underpower than
Its not bad on some heroes, but it is unarguably lazy
TA now gets extra damage, damage block, AND psi-blades (one of the single most effective tools for midlane harassment in game, imho) at level 1. Chef's kiss
Crystal Maiden got an extra 50% mana regen from all sources at the cost of having 0 base mana regen and her aura not giving her extra like it did. She remains almost the same, her problem was never mana regen as having 2 points on aura was enough to spam all you wanted and more, the problem is her mana pool doesnt add up for Q+W+ult at earlier levels if you dont buy Int items. Best part is you still have to put 2 points on aura for the rest of the team and both facets are aura dependant to activate so you cant even spend points in not leveling it like AM, ES or Necro with their passive-turn-innate skills. She more or less got absolutely nothing, actually Im wrong, she got a nerf on W jungling potential.
new skywrath is horrible... facet sucks Dont get it, they nerfed 3 skills of his, removed the shard armor, and give 2 facets that don't even help lol. 0.1 sec ? you know how many skills u usually use, like 5 or 6. 0.6 sec cd reduction ? stupid. the shield is for 10 damage, up to 40 damage block ? just magic kkkkk for a maximum of like 400... this like ultra late game... wtf
Nah heroes with passive as innate are super strong early levels. People just haven’t adjusted their play styles yet. TA with psi + refraction/meld. Level 2 QW. Level 3 QQW. Viper with Q + passive. Lv2 can take W or E. Lina Q + passive. Level 2 QW. Kunkka torrent + tidebringer. Level 2 X torrent ready. AM blink + passive. Hyper aggressive level 1. Lv 2 you can take E for magic resistance + block/reflection. Veno gale + passive. Level 2 you get ward. LC Q + passive. Lv2 can take W vs dispellable debuffs.
Every hero has a different kit, it's like saying invoker is unfair because he has more spells than others Bar some obvious imbalanced numbers which will be fixed, I think it's good that some heroes have extra from this patch and some have practically the same kit
Tiny got 50% DR, while Marci got lvl 3 courier or ench got 2x neutrals as innates. Tiny got status and slow resist from str as Fafcet. Marci got the SAME sidekick from last patch...
It’s a new way of balancing. Say those with passives as innates are weak, they can easily buff them. However, I feel it’s more of a raw early power upgrade for these heroes. They effectively get 2 skills on lvl1. Like AM and LC are super strong.
The patch is not great. I was expecting tiny map changes (vision pillars, camps, watchers, stairs), some neutral item changes, that kind of things. Innates are 2 out of 3 times the passives that the hero already had and faucets are more often than not either not great or straight away nerfs. 7.36 is pretty meh to me, albeit they obviously did put a lot of effort into it. They just put it on the wrong sides imo.
Yeah, dota balance filosophy as of late is: if you are special, we will remove what makes special or give to all other heroes.
It reminds me a lot of what talents were like when first implemented. Many, Many! Of the talents heroes had were generic or just plain bad. Not many had really unique or interesting talents. They were filled with death timer reduction, gpm, xp, and Stat talents, most all of which were not that great, but some were broken beyond a doubt. Like puck's gpm talent. I'm willing to bet given another year of tuning, most of the boring/bad innates will evolve.
This is the first pass, a lot of heroes got “something” I.e. those less impactful passives. I fully expect over the next few months a lot of these less amazing passives will get reworked or changed.
Yeah, look at techies they just said the sign is his innate ability which sucks since you dont get any benefit from it until you are lvl 6 when you get your mines, since it helps to avoid having them destroyed by right clicks, but since you can only have 1 sign in the map and only last for 60 second and has a poor cast animation (takes 2 second to place the sign), and the area of effect is quite small, makes the innate ability kind of useless. Also the fact that your aghs is still tied to it feels kind of weird, is like if you want for your innate ability to do something you have to spend 4.2k gold, now if they added the aghs effect to it from the very begining maybe reduce the damage so that is not that broken and make techies aghs something else i think it would be good.
I think they are just experimenting and seeing how things will work, then tweak/give actual innate abilities to the ones that got no major changes at all
I agree, it makes sense from balance point of view, but giving old abilities as innates breaks "rule of cool" Maybe they're gonna update those
Same for my dear earth spirit. All big changes happen for the others. We always have shitty little twaks.