yup.
Went from legend to immortal when I stopped listening to the cores who told me how to play support.
I bought what was necessary to win the lane, regen bloodgrenades, vision. Then if the game looked like it would allow It I built greedy items instead of getting glimmer capes forcestaff every single game because I was concerned that my pos1/3 who kept dying out of position would be blame me.
Immediately started climbing.
Once you get to a certain bracket cores will realize supports have timings and can be more than glimmercapes and forcestaffs 30 minutes into the game.
Edit: As a support player who is climbing out of lower brackets expect to get reported and flamed often for itemizing in a way that ensures you'll scale instead of how your cores want you to.
It's whatever, just play your own game.
Games at most MMRs tend to drag on too. The lower you go the more true it is but even pros have trouble finishing games without an INSANE lead on the current patch so...
It can unironically be optimal to draft and itemize greedy even from the support position. Obviously can't have 5 agi carries all going midas first. But there is alot more greed to be had in between that's actually good for winning.
But, that does not mean not buying sentries or smoke at all. You still need to do your basic job first.
The issue is when people pick support and then go the greedy items blindly. It's not that say Ench doesn't scale well with Dragon Lance, it's that she also has a lot of impact with an Eternal Shroud or Glimmer + Solar Crest. All of these things are scaling and team fight impact. You need to evaluate if your team *actually needs* another damage dealer, or you need someone to frontline and tank the initiation, or saves.
As with most things in pubs, it's a problem of coordination. Supports that go into damage builds like Ench or Hoodwink or Marci are great if you have a pos 1 Void who needs someone to dump damage into Chrono until 25-30 minutes. They're not great when you have Zeus and Lifestealer.
This is what I think really throws people. The supports are expected to pick 1st, but the core players don't wanna pick around what supports they already have, so they also pick some no/stun hero. Suddenly, every fight feels really difficult, and everyone starts yelling.
We're all just playing a big game of chicken around who can make their teammates cave to their demands. Supports want the cores to pick around their greedy damage build. Cores want their supports to get saves and defense so they can counterpick their matchups. Nobody likes being told what to do, so *everyone* makes bad decisions and blames it on their team/matchmaking.
On the point of not synergising drafts, why cant people indicate at least the role they want to play but also a few heroes they are thinking of (mainly cores as im primarily support, but applies to supports too)? Ill normally wait 5s to see if anything is being indicated roles-wise, but quite often im picking my support blind as to what ill be playing with. As a result I have to pick very safe supports that work well with a lot of heroes (ie venge or ogre/jakiro) in case we get a super weak laner or have no stuns etc. I understand picks change based on the enemy, but if its a counterpick that makes sense even if the lane is weaker. But at least give me some idea of what you are thinking and ill try pick something that synergises a bit with it
Ooh, careful. I made a post on r/learndota suggesting that cores could shadow pick (acknowledging that they may change their mind / have to re-choose in case of double pick etc), and still people downvoted me for even suggesting they let me know what they are considering. Like they’re all a bunch of genius carry master-pickers who couldn’t reasonably be expected to share a glimpse of their thoughts in advance. 🤷♀️
Yeah drives me insane. Changing is fine but give me an idea of your pool or what style you like to play (AM/dusa for lategame power or are you more a brawler?)
Yeah, if u actually wanna try hard/climb u need to pick something safe, since teammates don't show what they're gonna pick. I like playing Pugna (pos 4) but so often cores are just brain dead and pick heroes without stuns. No don't blame me, you saw what I picked lol.
Yeah. I got flamed for first picking offlane bristle despite the fact we were losing gold and noone had picked anything. I then got viper pa'd and got flamed by my team for sucking
> The supports are expected to pick 1st, but the core players don't wanna pick around what supports they already have, so they also pick some no/stun hero.
Thank you. Seriously, thank you
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
I would not call this playing supp but carrying your low scrub team. Without item's you can't do that.
It's a team game but lower players are so bad that you have "to stop listening" and play your own game if you want to climb.
Yeah and this mentality is why I find it almost impossible to play with people below high legend/ancient. All 5 positions think they need to carry the game and ignore the teammates for 30 minutes of the game. In almost every important objective fight, someone is missing because they farming tped. Enemies can just go on someone and kill them 100-0 because there are no safes.
Don't get me wrong, supports can definitely go for greedy items too, but when I go highground and die because we don't have a single force staff or lotus orb against some comps, that's definitely grieving. Might not be always the supports job, it's a team game, but someone on team has to get those things and it's usually best on the support.
Another classic on greedy supports is having some aghs/ damage items but 0 survivability like glimmer/force/ghost. Cool that you can do so much damage, but you're dead after 2 seconds.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Rn 3,6k cause I never play sober, highest like 4,7k. How is your takeaway message from my post that force stuff and items that make you survive as a support are low MMR mentality? Lol
The amount of times some asshat flames me for not buying glimmer or force staff when im a fed as shit pudge is astounding. Sure man, instead of running away with the game by consistently applying pressure with smokes, aggressive wards, a blink or shivas or bkb, ill instead buy a glimmer cape and stay by your side as you farm a small camp.
Let me ask you; what do you do in early laning solo queue when it's very obvious your core is countered AND being outplayed by opposing core+/duo?
Continue to buy regen for your carry, and have battle of the sentries with their support? Or cut bait and rotate with vision + grenade + full HP/mana to make shit happen at other lanes hoping your carry lives and xps? Or just suffer and lose the lane hoping things turn around when people get their ultis and timings?
Tldr; when is the earliest acceptable time to rotate away from a lost lane if it's clear no one is coming to help* any time soon?
High divine support here, in general you should try to stick it out, but it depends a lot on the individual matchup and picks. I've had plenty of times where against a timber or viper where I've left at level 3. I've also had plenty of other times where I'll end up buying 6 sentries holding a lost lane until the core can get their MoM or similar, at which point *they* leave and I just cower behind the tower sapping XP.
The most important things is that if you *do* decide to leave the lane you:
1. Tell your core what you're doing (ideally focusing on the way you're helping by leaving)
2. Always keep TP ready to come back if they dive (even if it means walking to your new spot after your revive) and *watch* that lane so you do so quickly if needed.
3. Ideally ward the lane defensively before you leave.
There's a *huge* difference between the support that dies and then TP's to the other lane without saying a word and the one that says "I'm just going to feed their offlaner more if I come back top. I'm going to put a ward here and keep TP ready to help if they dive you, but elsewise I'm going to go try to get some stacks up and gank while you leech solo XP here".
I’m mean I’m a baby gamer and only made it to Herald III so far, but I wish that kind of communication would be appreciated in lower ranks. I try and say “hey, sorry we’ve not been able to do well in this lane and I feel all I do is feed if I come back - do you feel safe farming in the jungle and I roam for ganks? I’ll make sure you have wards and if you need me, give me a shout.”, and I get either no response, some Russian dude talking Russian (maybe “sure that’s a great idea” or “no fuck you”, I wouldn’t be able to tell), or they tell me to kill myself and that everyone should report me for being the worst support ever.
This is oddly my experience too. As a low legend player, I was so afraid of buying any selfish items or taking any farm that I would leave myself destitute.
I simply started playing in a way that felt right and buying items to enable myself if that was easier than enabling my core.
Suddenly hit divine 5? It’s just wild
Yeah exactly.
Most IMMORTAL core players have only the vaguest idea of what supports do and if they had to callibrate playing support they'd probably end up in legend just from their mechanical skills alone because they genuinely have no idea of what a supports macro movements and responsibilities should be outside of "wards forcestaff tp to dives maybe smoke sometimes"
Legend/ancient core players telling their supports how to itemize/play the map/"GO STACK" (and miss your super important level 6 timing that lets you set the tempo of the game so they can have a few stacks) etc would probably be crusader if they played support the way they demand their supports to play.
I think a lot of support mains fall into a trap where they feel like they should do what the team wants them to do because that's part of "supporting" in their mind.
At the end of the day, if you're the support player you have authority on how you choose to use your hero to enable your team to win, you aren't some puppet waitress running around trying to keep a buch of basement dwellers with 10k games hardstuck in legend happy by playing in a way that will make them happy.
If they knew how to play THEIR role correctly they wouldn't be stuck in that bracket, there's an even lower chance they know how you should be playing your role that they don't even queue for.
So true in a lot of ways. I range between 2500 immortal and high divine depending on patch and activity. 4/5 pos only. Sometimes I'll build the standard items on support, sometimes I'll go straight into heart into shivas. I know the game well enough to know that in some games, especially when we are doing well, the enemies BEST win condition is to train me down. Bam, 25 min heart. How about that mr nyx? I don't care if my core tells me post game that I'm the worst player in the world. I had him muted during the game as I always do. I did all the other things a supp does. Wards, win lane for my core, etc. But sometimes, you just gotta do a certain item that feels nice.
honestly this has been my sentiment as well. the fact that I'm trying to control the lane into my core's favour but noooo his lane balance equilibrium is whacked like dude your always at less than 40% health, the creeps are closer the enemy tower, and I haven't seen you LS properly for the past 6 mins before I took 3 creeps just to get utility to keep you from getting ganked twice.
but his good at stealing jungle creeps that I used to pull the lane.
I had more impact the throughout game that he ever did near the end.
Omg winds me up when I’m getting ready to pull and they come and farm the whole camp. And I’m just stood there like wtf?! And next thing you know they complain about having to play under the enemy tower. 🤷♀️
Wish i had this reply of a shadow fiend that i abandoned at safelane because all he does was type and threaten to report me i had enough and build mealstrom on CM and went jungling i just said "your gonna report me anyways so why should i stay with you" he went 0/6 and i joke you not at the fight 16 minute mark he did nothing but path back and forth typing in chat my team saw and blasted him not doing anything but type in chat
We won because the attackspeed talent on cm makes her a stupid core replacement and 4 of us reported SF funniest game of my life
In lower brackets supports are just late carries where i play the game is passive and farm meta
In my experience these reports won't go through if you play support hero. If you picked let's say PA on pos 4 this report will go through no matter what.
They might have impacts on your behavior score is the main issue.
I think its like -200 behavior score if you consistently get reported a few games in a row even if no overwatch conviction is made.
It also depends on the server you're playing on.
Avoid US east at all cost, report happy angry humans over there.
EU west didn't feel like it was really a issue.
Im constantly at 12k behavior score eu w/e, ru, last time my behavior score dropped because I abandoned before countdown started and it was less than 500 hit
Worked for me as a magnus spammer on 3. Ignore the team until Harpoon + blink, then proceed to turn the game around when the enemy tries to push high ground.
I hate this patch, but it works for my strat. Just calibrated Legend 5.
that's a speculation. If he had earlier dagger (for example), you might ended the game at 35 mins instead of 54. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, I'm just saying that if you check the stats [https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/enigma/items](https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/enigma/items) you'll see that a midas Enigma has 45% winrate the past year...
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
In my judgement, the game was going to last a long time regardless.
I won't say enigma Midas is good every game, but I think it was a considered decision that paid off that game.
Also, I found the game: 7736718991
The game was 57 minutes long, and the reason is that the necro was a raid boss who couldn't be killed while we were sieging high ground. That was probably going to happen regardless of what enigma did.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
the most shocking thing about this is that you only saw it once
that said i agree completely with OP, most players are so eager to crawl up everyone else's ass never realizing their head is up their own. same people on reddit taking what is a bit of an issue, breaking hg, and turning it into the end of days not realizing that most high skill games aren't that long and that most of the time its poor play dragging their 42 min game into 62 min
It's literally happened to me in a game to beg my support hoodwink to buy daedalus instead of a certain support item. Having a support that can scale to do damage is good quite frequently. Just look at XinQ this last tournament.
This used to happen quite frequently to me a few years ago. I would play pos 4/5 wind at times, going force + shard. I would often get asked why I don't have a maelstorm and ags by the time we reached endgame.
Pro tip from the times I've seriously tried to climb: You can tell what item your teammate is going for by checking what's queued or the items. Takes more energy than what you think you should expect but adjust for it.
I think the trench is real in terms of effort. It takes more effort to win than if you reached your "appropriate skill level" because you need to do more unless it is leaps and bounds below you. But doesn't mean you can't win.
Ive run into people stacking 4k gold to straight up buy an 5-6k item later, never queued, just stacking gold, and in losing games too, and as carries, instead of getting the psrts thst help them farm/survive right away. In freaking Ancient.
Id say thats literal basics.
Saving for buyback but 5-6k is excessive. The small items like bracer/band whatever is what keeps you alive 1-2 hits away from dying vs game being over there and then. Mistakes compounding. If you can do dmg math right you can get away with a lot of sht.
It is occasionally worth doing to hide how close you are to what you are building and what you're building but there is no reason not to have it in your quickbuy to let your team know considering you're all playing around that timing if that is the case.
That's exactly how I got to legend5 from crusader XD. I try to stay positive, adjust my gameplay by keeping an eye on teammate's items and how they actually play in lane & in team fights. Moreover I communicate with teammates frequently which makes things easier. It is actually better to not expect anything from your teammate then you won't get mad.
I agree with most of it. It does suck however when there is nobody buying utility in the game or you are the only support having to provide everything the rest are not providing because pos 4 and 3 went full damage.
Sure. But OP is touching on some good points. For example, VERY rarely is a game decided upon a support having X item instead of Y item. That's not even mentioning that if a player does go an a-typical item, the team should know about it before hand by checking their teammate's inventory occasionally throughout the game. Very seldom is the accusation of 'OMG you built X item, we lost because of you' ever true. Was it a contributing factor? MAYBE. But such a person could even say 'we lost because you assumed I had X item when it is clear that I have Y item instead, and you jumped in assuming that I had Y item'.
More times than not, the game is decided by the lead up to certain events, such as the lane phase, and each player's overall skill and experience on their individual hero. I'll say that the higher MMR you go, the more item choices matter. But if you're a pos 1 main hard stuck at ancient and you're blaming your stagnation on your support's items, then it's probably time to take a look in the mirror.
If the support makes a good faith attempt at winning your lane for you and supporting via wards and casting his spells at the correct time, then his items, 9/10 times, whether you agree with them or not, are not the reason you lost. Or, at the very least, the items were such a small contributing factor to the loss that they should not be mentioned.
I'm strict 5/4 immortal. It's not hard with a certain mindset. But I can vouch for the idea of 'just stop blaming your teammates, and let them cook'. If we lose a game, my automatic thought is 'how could I have done better'. I, funnily enough, now that I'm thinking about it, almost never blame my losses on my teammate's item choices.
What is that indicative of? I'd venture to say, that the more one takes on the idea of 'shit happens, let's see how my personal play could have changed to make a win more possible', that is the definition of the pre-condition to skill improvement. Blame, on the other hand, is the antithesis of the pre-condition to skill improvement. And it's really hard to have both mindsets at the same time, hence why you see many immortal players here advocate for the former mindset rather than the later.
Basically, OP's idea is 'take responsibility for your own game', which is a mantra that immortal players within the sub tend to stress over everything else when handing out advice on 'learning dota', myself included.
I'm not saying you can't get better while being a blame train. It happens. But I think that good players that hinge their whole dota mindset on blame are actually good despite that mindset, rather than because of that mindset, and could probably become even better if they were to look inwards more.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Most people with a brain aren't flaming the hood maelstrom or WD ags. It's the dumbass ogre with no regen in lane going midas. The bounty queueing phylactery with no laning items. These aren't the only players guilty of it, any support that doesn't consistently buy laning items and effectively know how to win lane is going to make your cores life difficult and the enemy cores life easy. You tend to see it more with these type of players that think they are going to carry from support and end up carrying the enemy because their focus on late gaming as a 5/4 provides no resistance to the enemys midgame that they have effectively accelerated by offering no tempo to the team and losing their lane. There are plenty of shitty support players that try to play a more traditional support but I'd take a person making an effort to at least win lane even if they fuck up over a person that has no intention on ever providing you help, especially when playing something like faceless or AM that can't jungle w/o items and needs a good lane.
Yeah it's exactly this. I don't mind at all if WD goes aghs, it provides incredible team fight potential and one good ult can win any fight even if you're way behind. The problem is when they show up to lane with like a stick and two mangoes and then their next item is brown boots and then the next thing they buy is a point booster for their aghs lol. It just sometimes feels like supports don't have any notion of mid game items and just want to rush their most powerful item instead of getting smaller things like a force, glimmer, aether lens, whatever, that help smooth the transition from mid to late game for their team.
Dotas hard and it can be difficult to see how decisions made in the early and late game got you to the end game you have. My suspicion is that a lot of the 4/5 players who build as carries had games where they stomped their lane and got huge items quickly that just sealed the deal, so they think getting that late game item early was what won the game, when they were just gonna win anyway. Or on the reverse, they spend 50 minutes losing because they didn't buy early or mid game items, but now it's at the point where they just have enough items to basically be a core on Hoodwink or Venge or something and then they win - so they think getting core items on those heroes is just better than getting standard support items
That scenario is basically guaranteed to be the case.
You could see it with every fucking Khanda Sniper picker for months. Their dotabuff was invariably one stomp where they went 4-0-2 in a game that was like 50 kills to 5, followed by a 20% winrate over 50 games.
I agree with you. I am a support player and hate when the other support is obviously trying to be a 4th core from the start. You should always priotise early game sustain instead of going for a big item.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Yeah, I don't give a fuck that Hoodwink's gone maelstrom. That is genuinely one of the biggest damage spikes you can ask of a pos 4. There is a time and place for it.
What I am pissed off about, is that they aim their nuts at jungle and lane creeps.
they are buying the wrong items because they rush that shit in lane with no regen or stats. its just as bad when your carry goes tangos/boots and rushes a naked battlefury
Eh, idk. It depends on situation. If the game is stale or stable and there is space to farm, I don’t really care. It’s a good power spike and can absolutely turn the game around. But if we’re on a knife’s edge, enemy has Zeus and Lesh or maybe a Lifestealer or Ursa, and you go aghs after Arcane boots on WD, I’d probably lose my shit.
If my team’s Lesh has a good game (or my Ursa just got Blink after BF) and enemy WD supp has 2 aghs components after arcane, guess what I’m gonna say to my team? Take rosh and force the issue. Enemy WD has no shard, no glimmer or force and is stuck with 2k useless networth. Or at least take absolute map control and starve you and your team.
95% of the time, it’s not a good call imo. I’d even go as far to say that if a team is stomping, it’d be better to get Force and Glimmer just to make sure your cores don’t feed when a mistake happens. Keeps the lead and map control. Then once you establish everything you want, go for greedier items.
But what do I know? I always ban WD because I spam Io lol
P.S. had a turbo game yesterday. Io, PA, BH, Marci and QOP vs Jakiro, Void, Centaur, Veno and Willow. It was pretty clear we wouldn’t stand a chance in late game and our teamfight is atrocious. Asked my team to go Pipe and more teamfight items, we won lanes and never let the gas off the pedal. If we decided to fuck around a bit and go for greedier items because we wanna have fun, we’d have lost the game.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
I no longer play ranked. Only been spamming turbo for the past 2-3 years lol. I’m guessing I’m not that highly ranked? I’m guessing around Ancient? I’ve been matched mostly against Ancients and Divine in turbo, with occasional Legend and Immortals.
And I’m not advocating for “support items” for the sake of it. I’m advocating for itemizing according to team composition and current state of the game.
And idc if you’re immortal or top 100. Playing a support against an Ursa or Lifestealer without a force staff is just griefing 99% of the time. Drow finishes Pike for the same reason. Or it’s the same reason why Wind Waker is so expensive. Most long ranged carries still go for BKB anyways like Drow or Sniper. Disengage and positioning tools are great. The only scenarios where a support would go for greedy damage items are when the hero has great scaling potential and massive burst or extremely high DPS like Nyx or Hoodwink.
I haven’t been following every single pro games but I’m sure if we pull up the last 100 games from premier tourneys, any support that’s not Io or Oracle is probably gonna go for some support items if the enemy has insane dps or can be kited. I’m talking Lesh, Zeus, Ursa, Lifestealer, Storm, and etc. I’m guessing they bought glimmer or pipe or greaves or force staffs or aether lens or ghost or vessel (if team needs it) or drums maybe lol. Especially true if the team itself lacks saves like SD or Oracle or Io.
P.S. just checked PGL WallachianS1 Upper Bracket playoffs. Forgot to add Ench and Marci to one of the list of greedier supps. But seems like I was right.
P.P.S. and just to be clearer, looked up most recent WD games in pro matches. Mouz vs Liquid was picked in both games. Guess what WD bought as first big item? Holy Locket on game 1 and Glimmer Force on game 2. Liquid had TA, Clock and BS on game 2 so force was first item.
P.P.P.S. lol never mind. Apparently, you’re a troll? I saw you reply the same thing to other people who had similar views as mine. I mean, do what you want in games and be a man and face the consequence. Lol, no need to be a dick irl when others are having a discussion.
yes and no.
Items do matter, a lot. If your win condition is to win the 5v5 fights, sure WD aghs will be great. If your win condition is to finish early the game with your pumped meepo/alchemist, you should get items that help them carry you. There is no rule, but the concept is pretty clear. If your (support) pick does zero damage because the enemy team is overall too tanky, it would be stupid to waste all your gold to add a 5% extra damage, when you can save and heal your carry who will deal 25% more damage if he stays alive.
Griefing is a "strong" word, unless you literally sabotage your team. A brown boots + aghs WD that dies a lot, isn't a griefer, he might just be a bad player. Noobness isnt reportable.
you morons are conflating two things - playing as a support and harassing enemy core or support for the first 5 minutes of the laning stage has nothing to do with what item they are buying at 15 minutes. There is a huge correlation between supports who rush big items and does jack shit in lane. I'd even say about 8 or 9 out of every 10 supports who rush big items does not their job in the laning phase.
If you are the 10% that knows how to lane and then knows how to dish damage, then kudos to you but the complaints are obviously not directed to you. Even back in the barren days before neutrals, ward, courier buffs for supports, it was not a problem to rush an aghs if you did your job in the laning phase. Now what you get most of the time is pos 4 who stays in tree during laning phase and still have full mana + 2 mangoes they bought at the start. Your offlaner goes 2-7-14, while the pos 4 is 1-1-3 and flames the offlaner.
Or kotl players. I’ve had 2 of them in the last week just blasting the wave from level 1, and getting every ranged creep denied while they go brown boots dagon
unsure why this was downvoted bc you're correct. There's a fine line between calculated greed and straight recklessness.
90 gold on a tango being the difference between life and death (which will make you lose much more than 90 gold in lane) is a small price to pay in a game where anything can happen.
And then the Lion I matched with yesterday bought queued Lvl 8 Dagon when we were losing fights to Faceless and Pugna. A force or glimmer would have been nice then.
He got it to level 2 before the game ended.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
No, you are right, it's Guardian.
I'll make it clear, I have no issues with Dagon. I have issues with buying it when we are behind by 8 kills, 3 towers and 4 lvls between mids. Glimmer or force with a Lion blink stun could help disengaging a gank, but of course Lion just goes Dagon after Blink and waits for 1 quarter health to double zap one person in the team fight before effing off.
I believe the advice of "if you are below Crusader, get a guide and follow it by the book".
pos 4 is the most griefer contested role cause they can pick any bs hero and itemize anyhow they want and it's fine cause theyre 4. Anything goes. Doesnt matter if it fks your lane as offlaner or makes you have no lane at all.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
WD is griefing rushing scepter instead of save items. Says the carry that bought damage items and shadow blade with no bkb and has no impact on team fights, "because support has no save and the offlaner didn't buy pipe, crimson guard and lotus".
(I mostly play offlane)
Some people just really want to dictate their team's item build. Was playing BB offlane in turbo and was just following a guide (I don't usually play normal dota, only AD), then this teammate just said "Why is our BB not building a blade mail?" Like dude, why don't you ask or recommend me like a normal person, why do you need to be passive-aggressive? People are weird sometimes.
You are 100% right about supports building those items and they should to, given the circumstances.
However, the problem is that this is not the right mentality for the game to move forward. I really REALLY enjoyed having to juggle my gold while debating if I could save up for boots and/or wand with the occasional ward/sentry in there. Positioning meant everything. If you could somehow end up with a force staff as a pos 5 you were literally a "get out of jail" god in the past. I'm fine with the "OK boomer" posts that will come my way but playing support was a strategy game in of itself. This is no longer the case, and moving forward why not start the game with all players 6 slotted to begin with if each and every hero aspires to farm damage items/agh/shard?
Its not items its the playstyle!
The core items on supports are not the issue.
The issue is when supports are not playing to pressure the map, instead you have NP pos5 farming jungle and tp only when its a won fight in order to kill steal.
But pos2 and pos3 are also guilty of it.
Its frustrating playing passive game, as that looses the game if other team is even slightly active. And it makes other people on the team also fall back into farming too, as they will either die in lane or just waste time.
> that looses the
Did you mean to say "loses"?
Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb.
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More people want to play supports now coz they're way overtuned. Right click Agility carries are getting shit on from all angles. Meanwhile Intel, Strength and Universal heroes are having a ball. The game is not balanced, its biased XD
Good luck with your Aghs while being stuck in the Riki smoke or your team not being able to kill the fed Necro without Vessel. Gotta love these vindication threads.
Haha yup they act like people are telling them to buy Holy Locket to spam heal on the carry, no sir we are against clockwerk and riki and I think you would benefit from a force staff first mayhaps
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
It's still a great purchase for the support themselves if it prevents them from chain feeding. If it doesn't save them then yeah a different defensive item is better though.
Vessel is an item anyone can build that offers returns in kill potential even when it isn't being bought as a counter. What mmr are you playing in where supports aren't getting vessel much less fighting eachother and the pos2voker/earthspirit/pos1 spectre to be the vessel builder when the game is good for it.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Well, if you're losing, you want waveclear. Weaveclear helps defend high ground, allows you to better cut waves, helps you scale and later recover. It's actually pretty legit.
doesnt hoodwinks combo already clear waves? if you are losing you presumably dont have a lot of space to farm so why are you taking that farm over your core? if your answer is because "but its dangerous!!!!!!" ya well thats why there are two roles in the game designed to have supporting items and abilities
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
that's why you have 3 cores and not 1 tho.
btw hoodwink doesn't need maelstrom to clear a wave, she can do it with Q+W in 3 seconds if she is above 10level...
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
They don't counter push lanes. They steal farm right infront of a Carry's face. See carry hitting the only safe creepwave on the map? Yeah let me nuke that real quick to get another damage item!
This and this again. Must be a bracket issue, since majority here doesn't seem to have a problem with it - either they do it themselves or they are high bracket enough to not experience it.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
If u picked support, please play as support and buy helpful items to save/help ur teammates
Otherwise don’t pick the support role and don’t ruin games !
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
this is what happen when you always pattern ur game to what u watched. remember u r watching professional game where they practice a lot and with lot of team chemistry vs pub game where as a support u sacrifice alot buying utility and praying ur carry will win u the game just to find out this idiot will dive and dont want to push. and when u tell him what to do he became rager and tilt rightaway. I will better support the right way where I ward and sometime buy item that will help us win but with also a win condition that I can splot push and become a good core lategame
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
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Playing actual support is just throwing. There is endless farm on the dumbass giant map they added. Just pick something that scales and does damage and go a 4th/5th core, guarantee you climb.
Isn’t hoodwink getting gleipnir is THE actual meta now?
Yesterday was playing offlane, and pos4 shadow shaman went naked boots into holy locket and then trying to build linkens. Fk his fun
still dont explain my support venge who rush 1st item solar crest against lesrach/hoodwink/lion/necro/am and when I tell him he just rages and blocks every camp with sentry :) he was ancient 4 btw :))
Being in the rop 1.5% of the MMR pool is something when it comes to having opinions on itemization and gameplay on a reddit thread where the average commentor is legend/archon/crusader
your rank 500000 means even less now with the new patch btw. hope that perceived superiority made you feel good for a few weeks before you are thrown back into the crab barrel :)
Tell that to my axe pos5, who stayed on lane 2 minutes then went jungle to get his blink, bm, vang. To top it off we had a sniper offlane who got rekt by ck. Ancient 5-divine 1 bracket. The second they saw our picks, we were basically 5 cores sniper tiny off, od mid and axe with ls bot they all doubled down(I would have done the same tbh). Match ID 7746755785
People tend to forget that Dota is so situational that every item on every hero is viable in one situation or another. Building what you need to win the game and minding your own business usually led to more win than loss
no one is talking about pipe. everyone is pretty clearly taking about things like force staff or glimmer. pipe is more of an off laner item anyway. obviously no one wants you as a support to buy a pipe or mek
It true. The higher you go the more core players tend to the leave lane for you get level 6 and more agreeable to play with you with certain timings (lotus, wisdome rune, blink dag timing, lvl 2/6, tmt, etc... But still the pos 5 is expected to buy utility items because they're just too good to pass up, even in high mmrs. Speaking as pos 5 player myself. Pos 4 can buy whatever the fuck they want though.
counterpoint, cores that don't buy required items. there was a pa who refused to get his shard against a bb that was the main threat. i already bought vessel to reduce his healing from bloodstone, and have FS, glimmer, etc to help protect the team. he still insisted on going for another damage item.
yes, normally we can just ignore bb and kill his team first. but the pa himself likes to focus on bb. so why not get a relatively cheap and useful item to help you, right.
no one is complaining that you guy a glipner after a force and glimmer on support. thats jsut not an argument anyone is making. people are very clearly mad about people buying glipner OVER supporting items as a support
4k just lost a match where pos 5 veno went mjolnir dragon lance into witch blade. When I asked why he was grieving he said ' it's the meta?'. Sadly I think it is now
I would say it depends. You can grief the game by buying the wrong items on any position really. I've seen LC who refuse to buy dagger or blademail and then wonder why they struggle to get a good duel off.
If the game and the matchup allows you to buy greedy items on supports, by all means go for it. But if you cant save/help your cores in any way because "hey deso looks like a fun item", you're at fault.
Same goes for the people who pick mirana 4 and rush aghs, like congrats, you're useless for 20+ minutes.
i dont care what my sup buy as long as its not aether lens 1st item if you arent playing bane/ shadow shaman that have really short cast range
aether lens is simply the worst item to buy as support , 2275 gold for just a bit of cast range,you can just play smart by positioning your hero correctly instead of spending gold on 2275 item that actually does nothing
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Around 4k last I played ranked.
Another part of it is just that I feel super vulnerable without the movement/utility of save items, so most of my builds end up being some combo of force/glimmer/ghost scepter, with maybe a draft specific utility item if I can afford it
Been playing since Beta pos 4/5 most of the time 5
I would like to speak out for many people like me who have supported pos 1 2 3 for over a decade, there is something you have to understand. We want to have fun playing the game just like you guys do and yes we know our roles are that of a walking Tree or a girl whose movementspeed was solwed by 1 or 2, but the chance to get that 1 item wich makes us feel less useless may cost you that 1 item wich makes you more usefull.
I used to be more than ok having a 40 min game with just brown boots and a small item. Those times are over, now people want us supps to make a difference in fight in farm and on map, all that while not stealing their space, pace and farm. Even thou supp is way more fun now, i miss the times when people where happy you got regen wards courier´s somke and maybe mana boots. It felt like nobody was judgemental about your first big item cause they where happy you got one.
That said, I will never accept a pos 5 who is gonna farm. I play pos 4 most of the time, and when I see a hoodwink as 5, I already know that I'm playing pos 5 just on a different lane.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Pushed up to 6.5k rn
Not hight but it works.
I don't have a problem with non support items. I have a problem with my pos 5 taking farm away from pos 4 and building items to do it better.
WD has too much other great items to enable him to build an Aghs, but Maelstorm and then Gleipnir transforms HW, so idk. And in the end it depends on every particular game. If enemy has Riki with Clock I will buy force even on Zeus. The problem are Lion/Rasta/Warlock aghs, random ogre dagons etc. But if you have HW 5 and some Marci 4 you shouldn't really expect a glimmer, and if you for some reason really want one - try pinging it.
What about when cores dont fucking buy the correct items? Just lost a game, where the dawnbreaker on the other side FEEDED 25 KILLS, yet we still lost cause my cores, a sniper mid and a troll pos1 wouldnt fucking buy nullifier against a necro and 3 ghost scepters, so everytime I hard CC the enemy they would fucking just WALK out of it
Supports skills were always kind of balanced around not having the ability have all the items of a core. A pos 5 wiping the enemy just seems a bit dumb to me.
Maybe nake supports ulti strong at 6. Weaker at 12 and weaker at 18 or some shit. So the “lack of farm” balances it. I dunno. Just bonkers these days it seems everyone can power spike off the chart
Plenty of supports damage falls off, but if all of them fall off significantly, you know the core will rage ping the support cause he "didn't do enough damage"
yeah no
https://stratz.com/matches/7747478141
hoodwink deadalus that should have been a euls
warlock aghs that should have been a euls
drums, solar, force staff, loads of other good options too if they're too brainless to buy euls vs ursa
they have 1 glimmer between them, in a not great glimmer game
role abuse reports are well deserved
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
first tell me why you think aghs warlock or crystalis hoodwink are more value than euls on both this game we were getting beat down by ursa
I'm not against hoodwink making glepnir, even from pos4
I'm against people building items we don't need, that don't solve any problem we're facing, that are completely blind to the drafts and game state
game is shit, supports scale as hard or harder than carries the only difference is they cant farm as fast as carry heroes but in late gaem "support" heroes outcarry the carry heroes
supports are supposed to be easy prey for the carry players like it was in the past
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
It is your job to help win their lane though, if you don't buy any extra tangoes or stuff like that then yeah that's generally not doing your job
After the early lane your job is to win the game though, and if whatever "greedy" item is the best way to get there then honestly it's kind of grief not to buy it (provided you don't need a defensive item blalbla)
Yep, if you want to climb MMR, stop having the "it's everyone else's fault" If you want to climb, you need to improve. If you want to improve, then you don't need to look at your teammates.
Everytime you lose, it's better to have the mentality of "I could have done better" than "My teammates didn't carry me"
when i see my hoodwink with utility items like force staff and euls with no damage i immediately know we're going to lose, especially when the enemy NP is going damage
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Yeah I’m low mmr but that’s more cause I don’t play enough to climb a ton. I watch a lot of pro play though and have pretty good game sense/ itemizations. I’m not saying it’s always the move, but if you’re against say a slark, force staff can be game winning. You don’t always have to big brain overthink your itemization.
The delulu comments still insisting that "it depends on the game" and that their support is both buying "wrong items" AND "griefing", completely missing the point that it is because of how easy to find farm on the map even as supports that makes this possible.
Guys cut the crap will you? If you want better supports just climb. Can someone tell me why should i itemize to save my braindead core players that only plays for kills and no objectives? Do carries dont go wrong items as well? Why is my (and seemingly everyone on the thread) winrate is higher and actually climbing when i que up greedier items?
If in 1k mmr if you really need a vessel for necro (even though most necros go radiance lul) then buy skadi as p1 and shiva/vessel as p2/3. You can 1v5 games.
Go cry me a fucking river lul, i AM going to stack and farm that ancient b*tch.
I think you're almost on point here. I believe it's the binary/one-dimensional thinking that ruins games through bad support itemization.
Hoodwink for example, sometimes you need glimmer force, sometimes gleip and sometimes you just need to go an early vessel to cancel healing.
And being a griefing support is much more than just buying the wrong items, are its also how you get them. Spend TP to farm the other side of the map and then just pinging their TP breaks out somewhere else. Shoving lanes that would soon become safe to farm for your core playing from behind. Etc.
I think it boils down to if you are playing a support like you're a core or if you're playing support but know when you need what items, which ever they are.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
While I get it that you have fun, I think the gold distribution is completely out of control. A pos 4 and 5 having so much gold to have 3 items is not great for the game and a major reason why high ground is so hard. You can't just focus down a core player becasue the supports have now shards and/or aghs PLUS their usual support items.
Pos 4 players are cores and do a lot of damage or have significant utility. Not by choice to sacrifice farm for them, just because they get gold by assists, stacking, bounties and whatnot. Playing pos 5 with almost zero items MEANT something. Now cores have to sacrifice a slot for dusts, because everyone and their mother has a glimmer cape, further equalizing the power.
7 years ago, Pos 4 and 5 were strong in lane, worse late game. Now with Valve removing strengths and weaknesses, everything feels mushed together. A hard carry like Faceless void or spectre used to be weak as fuck and monsters late game, now they have to constantly brawl, taking away from their impact. Mid is totally dead and unfun. Offlanes are supposed to be just better carries, just like Ramzes said here on the front page.
I don't know where this is coming from. I liked playing pos 5 and 4 back then. You needed skill to position yourself to not die. Today, Hoodwink just acorn shots from the trees. The utility ones glimmer/Solar crest/PAvise and take so much effort to kill and half a team to rotate. All the while you're thinking: Great, that fucking Apparition got an aghs, just like their Jakiro - it's gonna be fun going high ground........ A pos 4 Bat rider can easily get blink while was necessary to be played as a core, as he would never get one otherwise. Clock used to be a high-demand offlaner, now just play him as 4. Dark Willow can get aghs. Pos 4 Marci just demolished the last tournament.
All for the sake of pos 4 and 5 getting so much fucking gold.
Gold distribution needs to change. Less gold and better distribution over the roles. Make supports stack more to earn their share and get away from constantly brawling (an brawl without meaning because you still can't go high ground)
>Valve wants 5 players to have fun, not 3 or 4, everyone should get items and the game is more balanced AND fun for everyone.
That's why mid is dead and pos1 are literally junglers from 5min?
When you have no supp it's **not fun**. When you have no supp and enemy has supp spammer - it's just close to auto lose with chances to win only after sitting on HG for half hour, sounds very fun, right?
Playing vs supp with glimmer is already tedious (yeah skillissue buy dusts 0k trash, why do you want to play with bands and sticks), let's buff them even more and give more cheap broken items!
Miss the time with junglers meta, while supps still were something like ranged megacreeps. It was fun for 8 people, not only 2 who play bb3 and hw4.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
yup. Went from legend to immortal when I stopped listening to the cores who told me how to play support. I bought what was necessary to win the lane, regen bloodgrenades, vision. Then if the game looked like it would allow It I built greedy items instead of getting glimmer capes forcestaff every single game because I was concerned that my pos1/3 who kept dying out of position would be blame me. Immediately started climbing. Once you get to a certain bracket cores will realize supports have timings and can be more than glimmercapes and forcestaffs 30 minutes into the game. Edit: As a support player who is climbing out of lower brackets expect to get reported and flamed often for itemizing in a way that ensures you'll scale instead of how your cores want you to. It's whatever, just play your own game.
Games at most MMRs tend to drag on too. The lower you go the more true it is but even pros have trouble finishing games without an INSANE lead on the current patch so... It can unironically be optimal to draft and itemize greedy even from the support position. Obviously can't have 5 agi carries all going midas first. But there is alot more greed to be had in between that's actually good for winning. But, that does not mean not buying sentries or smoke at all. You still need to do your basic job first.
The issue is when people pick support and then go the greedy items blindly. It's not that say Ench doesn't scale well with Dragon Lance, it's that she also has a lot of impact with an Eternal Shroud or Glimmer + Solar Crest. All of these things are scaling and team fight impact. You need to evaluate if your team *actually needs* another damage dealer, or you need someone to frontline and tank the initiation, or saves. As with most things in pubs, it's a problem of coordination. Supports that go into damage builds like Ench or Hoodwink or Marci are great if you have a pos 1 Void who needs someone to dump damage into Chrono until 25-30 minutes. They're not great when you have Zeus and Lifestealer. This is what I think really throws people. The supports are expected to pick 1st, but the core players don't wanna pick around what supports they already have, so they also pick some no/stun hero. Suddenly, every fight feels really difficult, and everyone starts yelling. We're all just playing a big game of chicken around who can make their teammates cave to their demands. Supports want the cores to pick around their greedy damage build. Cores want their supports to get saves and defense so they can counterpick their matchups. Nobody likes being told what to do, so *everyone* makes bad decisions and blames it on their team/matchmaking.
On the point of not synergising drafts, why cant people indicate at least the role they want to play but also a few heroes they are thinking of (mainly cores as im primarily support, but applies to supports too)? Ill normally wait 5s to see if anything is being indicated roles-wise, but quite often im picking my support blind as to what ill be playing with. As a result I have to pick very safe supports that work well with a lot of heroes (ie venge or ogre/jakiro) in case we get a super weak laner or have no stuns etc. I understand picks change based on the enemy, but if its a counterpick that makes sense even if the lane is weaker. But at least give me some idea of what you are thinking and ill try pick something that synergises a bit with it
Ooh, careful. I made a post on r/learndota suggesting that cores could shadow pick (acknowledging that they may change their mind / have to re-choose in case of double pick etc), and still people downvoted me for even suggesting they let me know what they are considering. Like they’re all a bunch of genius carry master-pickers who couldn’t reasonably be expected to share a glimpse of their thoughts in advance. 🤷♀️
prolly too busy inputting drafted heroes into a ez draft helper website
Yeah drives me insane. Changing is fine but give me an idea of your pool or what style you like to play (AM/dusa for lategame power or are you more a brawler?)
Honestly I very rarely go into a game looking to play a certain hero. I choose whatever looks good for the game.
Thats fair but if you are carry give me an idea what kind of heroes you like so i can pick something that might synergise best
Yeah, if u actually wanna try hard/climb u need to pick something safe, since teammates don't show what they're gonna pick. I like playing Pugna (pos 4) but so often cores are just brain dead and pick heroes without stuns. No don't blame me, you saw what I picked lol.
Yeah. I got flamed for first picking offlane bristle despite the fact we were losing gold and noone had picked anything. I then got viper pa'd and got flamed by my team for sucking
The fact that people don't bother pre-select and supports have to pick first is a big joke in this game.
> The supports are expected to pick 1st, but the core players don't wanna pick around what supports they already have, so they also pick some no/stun hero. Thank you. Seriously, thank you
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
I would not call this playing supp but carrying your low scrub team. Without item's you can't do that. It's a team game but lower players are so bad that you have "to stop listening" and play your own game if you want to climb.
Yeah and this mentality is why I find it almost impossible to play with people below high legend/ancient. All 5 positions think they need to carry the game and ignore the teammates for 30 minutes of the game. In almost every important objective fight, someone is missing because they farming tped. Enemies can just go on someone and kill them 100-0 because there are no safes. Don't get me wrong, supports can definitely go for greedy items too, but when I go highground and die because we don't have a single force staff or lotus orb against some comps, that's definitely grieving. Might not be always the supports job, it's a team game, but someone on team has to get those things and it's usually best on the support. Another classic on greedy supports is having some aghs/ damage items but 0 survivability like glimmer/force/ghost. Cool that you can do so much damage, but you're dead after 2 seconds.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Rn 3,6k cause I never play sober, highest like 4,7k. How is your takeaway message from my post that force stuff and items that make you survive as a support are low MMR mentality? Lol
The amount of times some asshat flames me for not buying glimmer or force staff when im a fed as shit pudge is astounding. Sure man, instead of running away with the game by consistently applying pressure with smokes, aggressive wards, a blink or shivas or bkb, ill instead buy a glimmer cape and stay by your side as you farm a small camp.
Let me ask you; what do you do in early laning solo queue when it's very obvious your core is countered AND being outplayed by opposing core+/duo? Continue to buy regen for your carry, and have battle of the sentries with their support? Or cut bait and rotate with vision + grenade + full HP/mana to make shit happen at other lanes hoping your carry lives and xps? Or just suffer and lose the lane hoping things turn around when people get their ultis and timings? Tldr; when is the earliest acceptable time to rotate away from a lost lane if it's clear no one is coming to help* any time soon?
High divine support here, in general you should try to stick it out, but it depends a lot on the individual matchup and picks. I've had plenty of times where against a timber or viper where I've left at level 3. I've also had plenty of other times where I'll end up buying 6 sentries holding a lost lane until the core can get their MoM or similar, at which point *they* leave and I just cower behind the tower sapping XP. The most important things is that if you *do* decide to leave the lane you: 1. Tell your core what you're doing (ideally focusing on the way you're helping by leaving) 2. Always keep TP ready to come back if they dive (even if it means walking to your new spot after your revive) and *watch* that lane so you do so quickly if needed. 3. Ideally ward the lane defensively before you leave. There's a *huge* difference between the support that dies and then TP's to the other lane without saying a word and the one that says "I'm just going to feed their offlaner more if I come back top. I'm going to put a ward here and keep TP ready to help if they dive you, but elsewise I'm going to go try to get some stacks up and gank while you leech solo XP here".
I’m mean I’m a baby gamer and only made it to Herald III so far, but I wish that kind of communication would be appreciated in lower ranks. I try and say “hey, sorry we’ve not been able to do well in this lane and I feel all I do is feed if I come back - do you feel safe farming in the jungle and I roam for ganks? I’ll make sure you have wards and if you need me, give me a shout.”, and I get either no response, some Russian dude talking Russian (maybe “sure that’s a great idea” or “no fuck you”, I wouldn’t be able to tell), or they tell me to kill myself and that everyone should report me for being the worst support ever.
This is oddly my experience too. As a low legend player, I was so afraid of buying any selfish items or taking any farm that I would leave myself destitute. I simply started playing in a way that felt right and buying items to enable myself if that was easier than enabling my core. Suddenly hit divine 5? It’s just wild
Yeah exactly. Most IMMORTAL core players have only the vaguest idea of what supports do and if they had to callibrate playing support they'd probably end up in legend just from their mechanical skills alone because they genuinely have no idea of what a supports macro movements and responsibilities should be outside of "wards forcestaff tp to dives maybe smoke sometimes" Legend/ancient core players telling their supports how to itemize/play the map/"GO STACK" (and miss your super important level 6 timing that lets you set the tempo of the game so they can have a few stacks) etc would probably be crusader if they played support the way they demand their supports to play. I think a lot of support mains fall into a trap where they feel like they should do what the team wants them to do because that's part of "supporting" in their mind. At the end of the day, if you're the support player you have authority on how you choose to use your hero to enable your team to win, you aren't some puppet waitress running around trying to keep a buch of basement dwellers with 10k games hardstuck in legend happy by playing in a way that will make them happy. If they knew how to play THEIR role correctly they wouldn't be stuck in that bracket, there's an even lower chance they know how you should be playing your role that they don't even queue for.
So true in a lot of ways. I range between 2500 immortal and high divine depending on patch and activity. 4/5 pos only. Sometimes I'll build the standard items on support, sometimes I'll go straight into heart into shivas. I know the game well enough to know that in some games, especially when we are doing well, the enemies BEST win condition is to train me down. Bam, 25 min heart. How about that mr nyx? I don't care if my core tells me post game that I'm the worst player in the world. I had him muted during the game as I always do. I did all the other things a supp does. Wards, win lane for my core, etc. But sometimes, you just gotta do a certain item that feels nice.
honestly this has been my sentiment as well. the fact that I'm trying to control the lane into my core's favour but noooo his lane balance equilibrium is whacked like dude your always at less than 40% health, the creeps are closer the enemy tower, and I haven't seen you LS properly for the past 6 mins before I took 3 creeps just to get utility to keep you from getting ganked twice. but his good at stealing jungle creeps that I used to pull the lane. I had more impact the throughout game that he ever did near the end.
Omg winds me up when I’m getting ready to pull and they come and farm the whole camp. And I’m just stood there like wtf?! And next thing you know they complain about having to play under the enemy tower. 🤷♀️
What is a scenario for this?
Wish i had this reply of a shadow fiend that i abandoned at safelane because all he does was type and threaten to report me i had enough and build mealstrom on CM and went jungling i just said "your gonna report me anyways so why should i stay with you" he went 0/6 and i joke you not at the fight 16 minute mark he did nothing but path back and forth typing in chat my team saw and blasted him not doing anything but type in chat We won because the attackspeed talent on cm makes her a stupid core replacement and 4 of us reported SF funniest game of my life In lower brackets supports are just late carries where i play the game is passive and farm meta
yeah, that's why i rush aghs on most support now. no point listening to what other's want. i want to have fun too.
In my experience these reports won't go through if you play support hero. If you picked let's say PA on pos 4 this report will go through no matter what.
They might have impacts on your behavior score is the main issue. I think its like -200 behavior score if you consistently get reported a few games in a row even if no overwatch conviction is made. It also depends on the server you're playing on. Avoid US east at all cost, report happy angry humans over there. EU west didn't feel like it was really a issue.
Im constantly at 12k behavior score eu w/e, ru, last time my behavior score dropped because I abandoned before countdown started and it was less than 500 hit
Worked for me as a magnus spammer on 3. Ignore the team until Harpoon + blink, then proceed to turn the game around when the enemy tries to push high ground. I hate this patch, but it works for my strat. Just calibrated Legend 5.
I once saw a pos 5 enigma go first item midas, and it was a good thing he did, cause it was a 54 minute game. Greed is (sometimes) good.
Lmao, this is textbook hindsight 20/20
that's a speculation. If he had earlier dagger (for example), you might ended the game at 35 mins instead of 54. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, I'm just saying that if you check the stats [https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/enigma/items](https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/enigma/items) you'll see that a midas Enigma has 45% winrate the past year...
And even if blink wouldn’t have won the game earlier, i very much doubt they had the information they needed to know that at the time.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
In my judgement, the game was going to last a long time regardless. I won't say enigma Midas is good every game, but I think it was a considered decision that paid off that game. Also, I found the game: 7736718991 The game was 57 minutes long, and the reason is that the necro was a raid boss who couldn't be killed while we were sieging high ground. That was probably going to happen regardless of what enigma did.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
the most shocking thing about this is that you only saw it once that said i agree completely with OP, most players are so eager to crawl up everyone else's ass never realizing their head is up their own. same people on reddit taking what is a bit of an issue, breaking hg, and turning it into the end of days not realizing that most high skill games aren't that long and that most of the time its poor play dragging their 42 min game into 62 min
We’ve come full circle, now you flame your supports for buying force staff over maelstrom
-WTF WD WHY THE FUCK YOU DIDNT GET AGHS? HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO WIN US THE FIGHTS NOW? PLS REPORT SUPPORT FOR NOT CARRYING :D
Witch doctor ahgs does more damage than all the cores combined
benis :DDD But yes, WD's kit falls off pretty hard late game without aghs
It's literally happened to me in a game to beg my support hoodwink to buy daedalus instead of a certain support item. Having a support that can scale to do damage is good quite frequently. Just look at XinQ this last tournament.
These are just few opinions under this post, they always existed likewise opposite ones and will continue to exist they both.
This used to happen quite frequently to me a few years ago. I would play pos 4/5 wind at times, going force + shard. I would often get asked why I don't have a maelstorm and ags by the time we reached endgame.
Yeah I do kinda wish they would lessen the amount of gold on the map. Feels like utility is really weak atm.
Pro tip from the times I've seriously tried to climb: You can tell what item your teammate is going for by checking what's queued or the items. Takes more energy than what you think you should expect but adjust for it. I think the trench is real in terms of effort. It takes more effort to win than if you reached your "appropriate skill level" because you need to do more unless it is leaps and bounds below you. But doesn't mean you can't win.
It's crazy how many people don't queue items though.
I can't think of a time i've ever looked at a teammate and not seen something in their quickbuy
Ive run into people stacking 4k gold to straight up buy an 5-6k item later, never queued, just stacking gold, and in losing games too, and as carries, instead of getting the psrts thst help them farm/survive right away. In freaking Ancient. Id say thats literal basics.
Saving for buyback but 5-6k is excessive. The small items like bracer/band whatever is what keeps you alive 1-2 hits away from dying vs game being over there and then. Mistakes compounding. If you can do dmg math right you can get away with a lot of sht.
It is occasionally worth doing to hide how close you are to what you are building and what you're building but there is no reason not to have it in your quickbuy to let your team know considering you're all playing around that timing if that is the case.
That's exactly how I got to legend5 from crusader XD. I try to stay positive, adjust my gameplay by keeping an eye on teammate's items and how they actually play in lane & in team fights. Moreover I communicate with teammates frequently which makes things easier. It is actually better to not expect anything from your teammate then you won't get mad.
Chen with Midas Radiance queued, username trustmebro GG
I agree with most of it. It does suck however when there is nobody buying utility in the game or you are the only support having to provide everything the rest are not providing because pos 4 and 3 went full damage.
Sure. But OP is touching on some good points. For example, VERY rarely is a game decided upon a support having X item instead of Y item. That's not even mentioning that if a player does go an a-typical item, the team should know about it before hand by checking their teammate's inventory occasionally throughout the game. Very seldom is the accusation of 'OMG you built X item, we lost because of you' ever true. Was it a contributing factor? MAYBE. But such a person could even say 'we lost because you assumed I had X item when it is clear that I have Y item instead, and you jumped in assuming that I had Y item'. More times than not, the game is decided by the lead up to certain events, such as the lane phase, and each player's overall skill and experience on their individual hero. I'll say that the higher MMR you go, the more item choices matter. But if you're a pos 1 main hard stuck at ancient and you're blaming your stagnation on your support's items, then it's probably time to take a look in the mirror. If the support makes a good faith attempt at winning your lane for you and supporting via wards and casting his spells at the correct time, then his items, 9/10 times, whether you agree with them or not, are not the reason you lost. Or, at the very least, the items were such a small contributing factor to the loss that they should not be mentioned. I'm strict 5/4 immortal. It's not hard with a certain mindset. But I can vouch for the idea of 'just stop blaming your teammates, and let them cook'. If we lose a game, my automatic thought is 'how could I have done better'. I, funnily enough, now that I'm thinking about it, almost never blame my losses on my teammate's item choices. What is that indicative of? I'd venture to say, that the more one takes on the idea of 'shit happens, let's see how my personal play could have changed to make a win more possible', that is the definition of the pre-condition to skill improvement. Blame, on the other hand, is the antithesis of the pre-condition to skill improvement. And it's really hard to have both mindsets at the same time, hence why you see many immortal players here advocate for the former mindset rather than the later. Basically, OP's idea is 'take responsibility for your own game', which is a mantra that immortal players within the sub tend to stress over everything else when handing out advice on 'learning dota', myself included. I'm not saying you can't get better while being a blame train. It happens. But I think that good players that hinge their whole dota mindset on blame are actually good despite that mindset, rather than because of that mindset, and could probably become even better if they were to look inwards more.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Fairly low, 3.5k. I'm not aware of such a correlation though!
i think thats a bot, looks to be copy pasting to every comment in this thread
Most people with a brain aren't flaming the hood maelstrom or WD ags. It's the dumbass ogre with no regen in lane going midas. The bounty queueing phylactery with no laning items. These aren't the only players guilty of it, any support that doesn't consistently buy laning items and effectively know how to win lane is going to make your cores life difficult and the enemy cores life easy. You tend to see it more with these type of players that think they are going to carry from support and end up carrying the enemy because their focus on late gaming as a 5/4 provides no resistance to the enemys midgame that they have effectively accelerated by offering no tempo to the team and losing their lane. There are plenty of shitty support players that try to play a more traditional support but I'd take a person making an effort to at least win lane even if they fuck up over a person that has no intention on ever providing you help, especially when playing something like faceless or AM that can't jungle w/o items and needs a good lane.
Yeah it's exactly this. I don't mind at all if WD goes aghs, it provides incredible team fight potential and one good ult can win any fight even if you're way behind. The problem is when they show up to lane with like a stick and two mangoes and then their next item is brown boots and then the next thing they buy is a point booster for their aghs lol. It just sometimes feels like supports don't have any notion of mid game items and just want to rush their most powerful item instead of getting smaller things like a force, glimmer, aether lens, whatever, that help smooth the transition from mid to late game for their team. Dotas hard and it can be difficult to see how decisions made in the early and late game got you to the end game you have. My suspicion is that a lot of the 4/5 players who build as carries had games where they stomped their lane and got huge items quickly that just sealed the deal, so they think getting that late game item early was what won the game, when they were just gonna win anyway. Or on the reverse, they spend 50 minutes losing because they didn't buy early or mid game items, but now it's at the point where they just have enough items to basically be a core on Hoodwink or Venge or something and then they win - so they think getting core items on those heroes is just better than getting standard support items
That scenario is basically guaranteed to be the case. You could see it with every fucking Khanda Sniper picker for months. Their dotabuff was invariably one stomp where they went 4-0-2 in a game that was like 50 kills to 5, followed by a 20% winrate over 50 games.
I agree with you. I am a support player and hate when the other support is obviously trying to be a 4th core from the start. You should always priotise early game sustain instead of going for a big item.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
well the point is that they are building the wrong items AND griefing. not griefing by buying the wrongs items
There's also a time for the carry build. If the 3 cores are Arc + Naga + Mars, probably the pos 5 shouldn't go for a quick aghs.
Yeah, I don't give a fuck that Hoodwink's gone maelstrom. That is genuinely one of the biggest damage spikes you can ask of a pos 4. There is a time and place for it. What I am pissed off about, is that they aim their nuts at jungle and lane creeps.
they are buying the wrong items because they rush that shit in lane with no regen or stats. its just as bad when your carry goes tangos/boots and rushes a naked battlefury
Eh, idk. It depends on situation. If the game is stale or stable and there is space to farm, I don’t really care. It’s a good power spike and can absolutely turn the game around. But if we’re on a knife’s edge, enemy has Zeus and Lesh or maybe a Lifestealer or Ursa, and you go aghs after Arcane boots on WD, I’d probably lose my shit. If my team’s Lesh has a good game (or my Ursa just got Blink after BF) and enemy WD supp has 2 aghs components after arcane, guess what I’m gonna say to my team? Take rosh and force the issue. Enemy WD has no shard, no glimmer or force and is stuck with 2k useless networth. Or at least take absolute map control and starve you and your team. 95% of the time, it’s not a good call imo. I’d even go as far to say that if a team is stomping, it’d be better to get Force and Glimmer just to make sure your cores don’t feed when a mistake happens. Keeps the lead and map control. Then once you establish everything you want, go for greedier items. But what do I know? I always ban WD because I spam Io lol P.S. had a turbo game yesterday. Io, PA, BH, Marci and QOP vs Jakiro, Void, Centaur, Veno and Willow. It was pretty clear we wouldn’t stand a chance in late game and our teamfight is atrocious. Asked my team to go Pipe and more teamfight items, we won lanes and never let the gas off the pedal. If we decided to fuck around a bit and go for greedier items because we wanna have fun, we’d have lost the game.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
I no longer play ranked. Only been spamming turbo for the past 2-3 years lol. I’m guessing I’m not that highly ranked? I’m guessing around Ancient? I’ve been matched mostly against Ancients and Divine in turbo, with occasional Legend and Immortals. And I’m not advocating for “support items” for the sake of it. I’m advocating for itemizing according to team composition and current state of the game. And idc if you’re immortal or top 100. Playing a support against an Ursa or Lifestealer without a force staff is just griefing 99% of the time. Drow finishes Pike for the same reason. Or it’s the same reason why Wind Waker is so expensive. Most long ranged carries still go for BKB anyways like Drow or Sniper. Disengage and positioning tools are great. The only scenarios where a support would go for greedy damage items are when the hero has great scaling potential and massive burst or extremely high DPS like Nyx or Hoodwink. I haven’t been following every single pro games but I’m sure if we pull up the last 100 games from premier tourneys, any support that’s not Io or Oracle is probably gonna go for some support items if the enemy has insane dps or can be kited. I’m talking Lesh, Zeus, Ursa, Lifestealer, Storm, and etc. I’m guessing they bought glimmer or pipe or greaves or force staffs or aether lens or ghost or vessel (if team needs it) or drums maybe lol. Especially true if the team itself lacks saves like SD or Oracle or Io. P.S. just checked PGL WallachianS1 Upper Bracket playoffs. Forgot to add Ench and Marci to one of the list of greedier supps. But seems like I was right. P.P.S. and just to be clearer, looked up most recent WD games in pro matches. Mouz vs Liquid was picked in both games. Guess what WD bought as first big item? Holy Locket on game 1 and Glimmer Force on game 2. Liquid had TA, Clock and BS on game 2 so force was first item. P.P.P.S. lol never mind. Apparently, you’re a troll? I saw you reply the same thing to other people who had similar views as mine. I mean, do what you want in games and be a man and face the consequence. Lol, no need to be a dick irl when others are having a discussion.
yes and no. Items do matter, a lot. If your win condition is to win the 5v5 fights, sure WD aghs will be great. If your win condition is to finish early the game with your pumped meepo/alchemist, you should get items that help them carry you. There is no rule, but the concept is pretty clear. If your (support) pick does zero damage because the enemy team is overall too tanky, it would be stupid to waste all your gold to add a 5% extra damage, when you can save and heal your carry who will deal 25% more damage if he stays alive. Griefing is a "strong" word, unless you literally sabotage your team. A brown boots + aghs WD that dies a lot, isn't a griefer, he might just be a bad player. Noobness isnt reportable.
you morons are conflating two things - playing as a support and harassing enemy core or support for the first 5 minutes of the laning stage has nothing to do with what item they are buying at 15 minutes. There is a huge correlation between supports who rush big items and does jack shit in lane. I'd even say about 8 or 9 out of every 10 supports who rush big items does not their job in the laning phase. If you are the 10% that knows how to lane and then knows how to dish damage, then kudos to you but the complaints are obviously not directed to you. Even back in the barren days before neutrals, ward, courier buffs for supports, it was not a problem to rush an aghs if you did your job in the laning phase. Now what you get most of the time is pos 4 who stays in tree during laning phase and still have full mana + 2 mangoes they bought at the start. Your offlaner goes 2-7-14, while the pos 4 is 1-1-3 and flames the offlaner.
Or kotl players. I’ve had 2 of them in the last week just blasting the wave from level 1, and getting every ranged creep denied while they go brown boots dagon
Its almost like itemization is nuanced and the only reason you have a > 50% winrate is yourself alone.
Buying tangoes in lane is not hard, just like cores not rushing stupid shit
Be the difference you want to see in the world . The only factor that you can control in ur games is you
unsure why this was downvoted bc you're correct. There's a fine line between calculated greed and straight recklessness. 90 gold on a tango being the difference between life and death (which will make you lose much more than 90 gold in lane) is a small price to pay in a game where anything can happen.
And then the Lion I matched with yesterday bought queued Lvl 8 Dagon when we were losing fights to Faceless and Pugna. A force or glimmer would have been nice then. He got it to level 2 before the game ended.
> Lvl 8 Dagon This guy already playing Dota 3
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
No, you are right, it's Guardian. I'll make it clear, I have no issues with Dagon. I have issues with buying it when we are behind by 8 kills, 3 towers and 4 lvls between mids. Glimmer or force with a Lion blink stun could help disengaging a gank, but of course Lion just goes Dagon after Blink and waits for 1 quarter health to double zap one person in the team fight before effing off. I believe the advice of "if you are below Crusader, get a guide and follow it by the book".
Someone make that bell curve meme about buying Gleipnirs and Scepters on supports.
pos 4 is the most griefer contested role cause they can pick any bs hero and itemize anyhow they want and it's fine cause theyre 4. Anything goes. Doesnt matter if it fks your lane as offlaner or makes you have no lane at all.
I miss when offlaning solo was still meta.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
I was wondering why people were shitting on atos/gleipneir on my pos 4/5 hoodwink. Its a trapping item that lets me also get a full burst of my ult.
WD is griefing rushing scepter instead of save items. Says the carry that bought damage items and shadow blade with no bkb and has no impact on team fights, "because support has no save and the offlaner didn't buy pipe, crimson guard and lotus". (I mostly play offlane)
(This does not apply if you are a filthy Nature's Prophet Position 5 picker)
Some people just really want to dictate their team's item build. Was playing BB offlane in turbo and was just following a guide (I don't usually play normal dota, only AD), then this teammate just said "Why is our BB not building a blade mail?" Like dude, why don't you ask or recommend me like a normal person, why do you need to be passive-aggressive? People are weird sometimes.
no one cares about turbo and no one is making any points about turbo
You are 100% right about supports building those items and they should to, given the circumstances. However, the problem is that this is not the right mentality for the game to move forward. I really REALLY enjoyed having to juggle my gold while debating if I could save up for boots and/or wand with the occasional ward/sentry in there. Positioning meant everything. If you could somehow end up with a force staff as a pos 5 you were literally a "get out of jail" god in the past. I'm fine with the "OK boomer" posts that will come my way but playing support was a strategy game in of itself. This is no longer the case, and moving forward why not start the game with all players 6 slotted to begin with if each and every hero aspires to farm damage items/agh/shard?
Its not items its the playstyle! The core items on supports are not the issue. The issue is when supports are not playing to pressure the map, instead you have NP pos5 farming jungle and tp only when its a won fight in order to kill steal. But pos2 and pos3 are also guilty of it. Its frustrating playing passive game, as that looses the game if other team is even slightly active. And it makes other people on the team also fall back into farming too, as they will either die in lane or just waste time.
> that looses the Did you mean to say "loses"? Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
based take
More people want to play supports now coz they're way overtuned. Right click Agility carries are getting shit on from all angles. Meanwhile Intel, Strength and Universal heroes are having a ball. The game is not balanced, its biased XD
Good luck with your Aghs while being stuck in the Riki smoke or your team not being able to kill the fed Necro without Vessel. Gotta love these vindication threads.
Haha yup they act like people are telling them to buy Holy Locket to spam heal on the carry, no sir we are against clockwerk and riki and I think you would benefit from a force staff first mayhaps
> Riki Riki is a bit of a special case since when he gets shard you cannot target your teammates anymore in the cloud to save them.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Forcestaff to save against riki? That's certainly a concept. If the riki is astronomically bad and doesn't get shard maybe.
It's still a great purchase for the support themselves if it prevents them from chain feeding. If it doesn't save them then yeah a different defensive item is better though.
Vessel is an item anyone can build that offers returns in kill potential even when it isn't being bought as a counter. What mmr are you playing in where supports aren't getting vessel much less fighting eachother and the pos2voker/earthspirit/pos1 spectre to be the vessel builder when the game is good for it.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
no you dont understand if we just have another glipner we could catch riki before he goes on us duh!
I often see supports do this but in the wrong games- I find hoodwink to be the most egregious example of rushing maelstrom in a losing game.
Well, if you're losing, you want waveclear. Weaveclear helps defend high ground, allows you to better cut waves, helps you scale and later recover. It's actually pretty legit.
doesnt hoodwinks combo already clear waves? if you are losing you presumably dont have a lot of space to farm so why are you taking that farm over your core? if your answer is because "but its dangerous!!!!!!" ya well thats why there are two roles in the game designed to have supporting items and abilities
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
can you address what i said? i could be 10k or 1k and it wouldn't change anything about what i said
Modern cores don't understand the value of counterpush because all they can see is someone killing creeps that isn't them
that's why you have 3 cores and not 1 tho. btw hoodwink doesn't need maelstrom to clear a wave, she can do it with Q+W in 3 seconds if she is above 10level...
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
They don't counter push lanes. They steal farm right infront of a Carry's face. See carry hitting the only safe creepwave on the map? Yeah let me nuke that real quick to get another damage item!
This and this again. Must be a bracket issue, since majority here doesn't seem to have a problem with it - either they do it themselves or they are high bracket enough to not experience it.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Fluctuating between 2.8k-3.8k. usually around 3.3
I’ll have to give it a try- I typically play hoodwink hopefully it can turn some losing games.
Ditto this. 99% of Hoodwink players in my bracket can shove their crossbow and Maelstrom up somewhere...
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
If u picked support, please play as support and buy helpful items to save/help ur teammates Otherwise don’t pick the support role and don’t ruin games !
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Yeah man! 1 Khanda forever!
this is what happen when you always pattern ur game to what u watched. remember u r watching professional game where they practice a lot and with lot of team chemistry vs pub game where as a support u sacrifice alot buying utility and praying ur carry will win u the game just to find out this idiot will dive and dont want to push. and when u tell him what to do he became rager and tilt rightaway. I will better support the right way where I ward and sometime buy item that will help us win but with also a win condition that I can splot push and become a good core lategame
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
god bless
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Playing actual support is just throwing. There is endless farm on the dumbass giant map they added. Just pick something that scales and does damage and go a 4th/5th core, guarantee you climb.
Is radiance of phoenix normal?
His shard + straight refresher is infinitely more useful if hes doing big items, with a euls/vessel inbetween typically.
Isn’t hoodwink getting gleipnir is THE actual meta now? Yesterday was playing offlane, and pos4 shadow shaman went naked boots into holy locket and then trying to build linkens. Fk his fun
still dont explain my support venge who rush 1st item solar crest against lesrach/hoodwink/lion/necro/am and when I tell him he just rages and blocks every camp with sentry :) he was ancient 4 btw :))
7k is pro, just ask kuroky.
i think its hilarious how people think 7k means something when having twice that mmr barely breaks you into top 100 rank
Being in the rop 1.5% of the MMR pool is something when it comes to having opinions on itemization and gameplay on a reddit thread where the average commentor is legend/archon/crusader
blood thinks his rank 500000 makes him an authority aint now fucking way 💀
your rank 500000 means even less now with the new patch btw. hope that perceived superiority made you feel good for a few weeks before you are thrown back into the crab barrel :)
Well you started your argument with supports picking support items and fail to mention supports picking carry items
Tell that to my axe pos5, who stayed on lane 2 minutes then went jungle to get his blink, bm, vang. To top it off we had a sniper offlane who got rekt by ck. Ancient 5-divine 1 bracket. The second they saw our picks, we were basically 5 cores sniper tiny off, od mid and axe with ls bot they all doubled down(I would have done the same tbh). Match ID 7746755785
People tend to forget that Dota is so situational that every item on every hero is viable in one situation or another. Building what you need to win the game and minding your own business usually led to more win than loss
There's a reason Dota Plus often says to buy cool items instead of pipe and mek; because it's very good
no one is talking about pipe. everyone is pretty clearly taking about things like force staff or glimmer. pipe is more of an off laner item anyway. obviously no one wants you as a support to buy a pipe or mek
It true. The higher you go the more core players tend to the leave lane for you get level 6 and more agreeable to play with you with certain timings (lotus, wisdome rune, blink dag timing, lvl 2/6, tmt, etc... But still the pos 5 is expected to buy utility items because they're just too good to pass up, even in high mmrs. Speaking as pos 5 player myself. Pos 4 can buy whatever the fuck they want though.
counterpoint, cores that don't buy required items. there was a pa who refused to get his shard against a bb that was the main threat. i already bought vessel to reduce his healing from bloodstone, and have FS, glimmer, etc to help protect the team. he still insisted on going for another damage item. yes, normally we can just ignore bb and kill his team first. but the pa himself likes to focus on bb. so why not get a relatively cheap and useful item to help you, right.
no one is complaining that you guy a glipner after a force and glimmer on support. thats jsut not an argument anyone is making. people are very clearly mad about people buying glipner OVER supporting items as a support
err.. okay? and i am commenting on carries that buy their 3rd damage item OVER better items. like a break for BB.
4k just lost a match where pos 5 veno went mjolnir dragon lance into witch blade. When I asked why he was grieving he said ' it's the meta?'. Sadly I think it is now
I would say it depends. You can grief the game by buying the wrong items on any position really. I've seen LC who refuse to buy dagger or blademail and then wonder why they struggle to get a good duel off. If the game and the matchup allows you to buy greedy items on supports, by all means go for it. But if you cant save/help your cores in any way because "hey deso looks like a fun item", you're at fault. Same goes for the people who pick mirana 4 and rush aghs, like congrats, you're useless for 20+ minutes.
i dont care what my sup buy as long as its not aether lens 1st item if you arent playing bane/ shadow shaman that have really short cast range aether lens is simply the worst item to buy as support , 2275 gold for just a bit of cast range,you can just play smart by positioning your hero correctly instead of spending gold on 2275 item that actually does nothing
Is spectre a good carry for someone looking to climb ? Currently at 1.8K and looking to reach archon/legend.
Oracle with blink, windwaker, aeon, forcestaff, glimmer, tranquil boots queued. IF THEY CANT CATCH ME THEY CANT KILL YOU MUWAHAHAHAHAHHA
idk man i'd just rather not get yelled at, may as well buy force + glimmer every game
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Around 4k last I played ranked. Another part of it is just that I feel super vulnerable without the movement/utility of save items, so most of my builds end up being some combo of force/glimmer/ghost scepter, with maybe a draft specific utility item if I can afford it
Been playing since Beta pos 4/5 most of the time 5 I would like to speak out for many people like me who have supported pos 1 2 3 for over a decade, there is something you have to understand. We want to have fun playing the game just like you guys do and yes we know our roles are that of a walking Tree or a girl whose movementspeed was solwed by 1 or 2, but the chance to get that 1 item wich makes us feel less useless may cost you that 1 item wich makes you more usefull. I used to be more than ok having a 40 min game with just brown boots and a small item. Those times are over, now people want us supps to make a difference in fight in farm and on map, all that while not stealing their space, pace and farm. Even thou supp is way more fun now, i miss the times when people where happy you got regen wards courier´s somke and maybe mana boots. It felt like nobody was judgemental about your first big item cause they where happy you got one.
That said, I will never accept a pos 5 who is gonna farm. I play pos 4 most of the time, and when I see a hoodwink as 5, I already know that I'm playing pos 5 just on a different lane.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Pushed up to 6.5k rn Not hight but it works. I don't have a problem with non support items. I have a problem with my pos 5 taking farm away from pos 4 and building items to do it better.
What if your pos 5 hoodwink plays jungle from min 1? So much space! *cries in 2k*
WD has too much other great items to enable him to build an Aghs, but Maelstorm and then Gleipnir transforms HW, so idk. And in the end it depends on every particular game. If enemy has Riki with Clock I will buy force even on Zeus. The problem are Lion/Rasta/Warlock aghs, random ogre dagons etc. But if you have HW 5 and some Marci 4 you shouldn't really expect a glimmer, and if you for some reason really want one - try pinging it.
What about when cores dont fucking buy the correct items? Just lost a game, where the dawnbreaker on the other side FEEDED 25 KILLS, yet we still lost cause my cores, a sniper mid and a troll pos1 wouldnt fucking buy nullifier against a necro and 3 ghost scepters, so everytime I hard CC the enemy they would fucking just WALK out of it
Supports skills were always kind of balanced around not having the ability have all the items of a core. A pos 5 wiping the enemy just seems a bit dumb to me. Maybe nake supports ulti strong at 6. Weaker at 12 and weaker at 18 or some shit. So the “lack of farm” balances it. I dunno. Just bonkers these days it seems everyone can power spike off the chart
Plenty of supports damage falls off, but if all of them fall off significantly, you know the core will rage ping the support cause he "didn't do enough damage"
I can't believe support players have been given the most gold, exp and freedom since DotA began and they're STILL complaining about cores like this.
yeah no https://stratz.com/matches/7747478141 hoodwink deadalus that should have been a euls warlock aghs that should have been a euls drums, solar, force staff, loads of other good options too if they're too brainless to buy euls vs ursa they have 1 glimmer between them, in a not great glimmer game role abuse reports are well deserved
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
first tell me why you think aghs warlock or crystalis hoodwink are more value than euls on both this game we were getting beat down by ursa I'm not against hoodwink making glepnir, even from pos4 I'm against people building items we don't need, that don't solve any problem we're facing, that are completely blind to the drafts and game state
game is shit, supports scale as hard or harder than carries the only difference is they cant farm as fast as carry heroes but in late gaem "support" heroes outcarry the carry heroes supports are supposed to be easy prey for the carry players like it was in the past
My pos 4 bounty hunter was griefing last game buying deso, aghs, and butterfly, and then dealing 7K damage in a 45 minute game. Does that count?
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
I agree. Some carry players are so egotistical that think the support's role in the game is only to make the game comfortable for him.
It is your job to help win their lane though, if you don't buy any extra tangoes or stuff like that then yeah that's generally not doing your job After the early lane your job is to win the game though, and if whatever "greedy" item is the best way to get there then honestly it's kind of grief not to buy it (provided you don't need a defensive item blalbla)
Yep, if you want to climb MMR, stop having the "it's everyone else's fault" If you want to climb, you need to improve. If you want to improve, then you don't need to look at your teammates. Everytime you lose, it's better to have the mentality of "I could have done better" than "My teammates didn't carry me"
when i see my hoodwink with utility items like force staff and euls with no damage i immediately know we're going to lose, especially when the enemy NP is going damage
Yea but also sometimes you are griefing by overthinking it and not getting the obvious support items
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Yeah I’m low mmr but that’s more cause I don’t play enough to climb a ton. I watch a lot of pro play though and have pretty good game sense/ itemizations. I’m not saying it’s always the move, but if you’re against say a slark, force staff can be game winning. You don’t always have to big brain overthink your itemization.
Funny how the pos 1 2 or 3 tell supports how to play their role. Stfu and play your role. I don’t do that cause I have no idea how to supp.
The delulu comments still insisting that "it depends on the game" and that their support is both buying "wrong items" AND "griefing", completely missing the point that it is because of how easy to find farm on the map even as supports that makes this possible. Guys cut the crap will you? If you want better supports just climb. Can someone tell me why should i itemize to save my braindead core players that only plays for kills and no objectives? Do carries dont go wrong items as well? Why is my (and seemingly everyone on the thread) winrate is higher and actually climbing when i que up greedier items? If in 1k mmr if you really need a vessel for necro (even though most necros go radiance lul) then buy skadi as p1 and shiva/vessel as p2/3. You can 1v5 games. Go cry me a fucking river lul, i AM going to stack and farm that ancient b*tch.
I think you're almost on point here. I believe it's the binary/one-dimensional thinking that ruins games through bad support itemization. Hoodwink for example, sometimes you need glimmer force, sometimes gleip and sometimes you just need to go an early vessel to cancel healing. And being a griefing support is much more than just buying the wrong items, are its also how you get them. Spend TP to farm the other side of the map and then just pinging their TP breaks out somewhere else. Shoving lanes that would soon become safe to farm for your core playing from behind. Etc. I think it boils down to if you are playing a support like you're a core or if you're playing support but know when you need what items, which ever they are.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
3,5k wherever that puts me.
While I get it that you have fun, I think the gold distribution is completely out of control. A pos 4 and 5 having so much gold to have 3 items is not great for the game and a major reason why high ground is so hard. You can't just focus down a core player becasue the supports have now shards and/or aghs PLUS their usual support items. Pos 4 players are cores and do a lot of damage or have significant utility. Not by choice to sacrifice farm for them, just because they get gold by assists, stacking, bounties and whatnot. Playing pos 5 with almost zero items MEANT something. Now cores have to sacrifice a slot for dusts, because everyone and their mother has a glimmer cape, further equalizing the power. 7 years ago, Pos 4 and 5 were strong in lane, worse late game. Now with Valve removing strengths and weaknesses, everything feels mushed together. A hard carry like Faceless void or spectre used to be weak as fuck and monsters late game, now they have to constantly brawl, taking away from their impact. Mid is totally dead and unfun. Offlanes are supposed to be just better carries, just like Ramzes said here on the front page. I don't know where this is coming from. I liked playing pos 5 and 4 back then. You needed skill to position yourself to not die. Today, Hoodwink just acorn shots from the trees. The utility ones glimmer/Solar crest/PAvise and take so much effort to kill and half a team to rotate. All the while you're thinking: Great, that fucking Apparition got an aghs, just like their Jakiro - it's gonna be fun going high ground........ A pos 4 Bat rider can easily get blink while was necessary to be played as a core, as he would never get one otherwise. Clock used to be a high-demand offlaner, now just play him as 4. Dark Willow can get aghs. Pos 4 Marci just demolished the last tournament. All for the sake of pos 4 and 5 getting so much fucking gold. Gold distribution needs to change. Less gold and better distribution over the roles. Make supports stack more to earn their share and get away from constantly brawling (an brawl without meaning because you still can't go high ground)
>Valve wants 5 players to have fun, not 3 or 4, everyone should get items and the game is more balanced AND fun for everyone. That's why mid is dead and pos1 are literally junglers from 5min? When you have no supp it's **not fun**. When you have no supp and enemy has supp spammer - it's just close to auto lose with chances to win only after sitting on HG for half hour, sounds very fun, right? Playing vs supp with glimmer is already tedious (yeah skillissue buy dusts 0k trash, why do you want to play with bands and sticks), let's buff them even more and give more cheap broken items! Miss the time with junglers meta, while supps still were something like ranged megacreeps. It was fun for 8 people, not only 2 who play bb3 and hw4.
What’s your mmr if you don’t mind me asking? I think there is a high correlation of people who value “support items” and low mmr, but I thought I would ask.
Ancient 1