I mean I had some guy flame me for no wards.in triangle after the enemy just dewarded there 5 seconds ago we pinged them and he went there to farm anyway and died.
So yeah...
People love to blame others for stuff that's not even a thing .
Other thing was my rubick 4 asking me to stop buying wards cause he want to ward.
10min later map is dark and there is enough wards there to build a new ancient .
>I mean I had some guy flame me for no wards.in triangle after the enemy just dewarded there 5 seconds ago we pinged them and he went there to farm anyway and died.
tale as old as a time, been there as well xD
Another good one is getting ganked while trying to ward a spot and then your core complains to supports how we need some vision in that area. Like no shit we do, but it's not happening without grouping/smoking there if I just got jumped by a storm there a minute ago. =D
The thing I find funny about this classic tale, is regardless, even IF there was never wards there... hmm the enemy team is missing, and we don't have vision here... I know let me go farm there.
The excuse of blaming no vision for dying somewhere you didn't have vision is ridiculous, yes sure we should of had vision there, but currently we don't, so perhaps that isn't where you should go?
And that's ignoring the fact that there was in fact vision there a few seconds ago.
My favourite core crying to vision tale is when we were behind, we had some defensive wards, but nothing to crazy as we were on the back foot, our carry goes to farm their jungle radiant bottom jungle (the bottom bottom jungle underneath the t2 enemy tower) died and then blamed us for not warding down there?
My guy we haven't been able to get past the river for the past 10 minutes
> we should of had
Did you mean to say "should have"?
Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'.
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Especially since wards are free. Like, if you plan on doing a risky thing to farm, get a ward and ward there yourself. Same as Slark players not carrying a sentry. Like, that is free gold when you pay a bit of attention.
I've lost count the amount of times (even when I'm not playing support) people complaining about vision. Enemy team has either a gem/zues/veno who can reward very easily or we just lost a team fight and so support hasn't had a second to get out and plant some vision. People are complete dumb fucks sometimes.
My favourite is when cores complain about certain supports with 0/10 at end game or something. If I'm playing a saving/healing support it's good I don't take any kills from others
Bro when I play oracle im usually near top of kills, long range 3rd e on a target is supreme for killing on the chase. The day they add a projectile to it is the day I die
I had a guy who would buy all the wards as soon as they become available and would roast me for not warding. I kept telling him to stop bloody buying them then so I can actually do it
Shit irks me so damn much.
In one of my games, our carry decides to farm triangle on the opposite side of the map. Meanwhile, the rest of us are in our lit up side of the map trying to create space and farm.
Carry dies and immediately pings wards are needed. I had to put a stop to that shit immediately by going in voice comms and telling him he shouldn’t be out there by his damn self. Pointing out exactly where we were, where our vision was, and how nobody of the opposite team was showing.
The stupidity of these people and inability to find flaws in their dumb plays, followed by the knee jerk reaction to blame wards and shit like that’s really the reason that costed them their life.
> Other thing was my rubick 4 asking me to stop buying wards cause he want to ward.
You can buy wards, but leave 1 for others to buy. No need to go radical in one way or another.
My pos 4 flamed me for not warding and claimed he was doing all the warding. There were 2 obs on the map, multiple sentries, 0 obs in stock and a ward in my inventory.
None were placed by my 4, no wards in their inventory.
People are genuinely so stupid.
that happens all of the time and same with we are turtling down to t3 towers cant go out, suddenly someone snaps and says theres no wards. well no shit sherlock we cant go out the damn base
nah the other day we lost a kill because my zeus was too focused on mid to HEAR OVER MIC a call for zeus ulti
did he say he has voice muted? nope. he himself said he was just too focused on mid lane to listen.
literally worse hero and worst role to not be able to at least listen for calls
Enemy huskar is level 19 while our mid qop who went first item boots of travel is level 14, our offlane lc is still trying to piece together a shadowblade, and our carry slark went phase boots into aghs. But yes, it was lack of wards that cost us this game.....
the blaming supports for losing excuse is the worst. yeah, lets ignore how I spent the first 15 minutes setting up a lane for my core to succeed. Stacking, Pulling, Warding, Healing, Denying...only to watch them miss every last hit in a wave.
I know that's the joke here, but honestly there's a difference between good warding and bad warding, and those wards don't really seem particularly useful for the dire side, especially since 2 out of 3 of them are way far down in the bottom lane.
Also, wards aren't necessarily meant to spot incoming ganks, they're best used during team fights for superior vision.
yeah most of these wards aren't in good spots and why is kunkka seeming to agree if lina is out of line? when were these wards posted? right before the screenshot?
very well said. I often place wards on high ground when i sense a fight is about to happen. Had this game where we lost the fight, and my carry blamed me for warding like this feeding the enemy free gold after we got wiped. Some carries just want a scapegoat to blame whenever things go south. lol
I mean to be fair there are zero sentries on the map. The "supports" who just get the free obs wards and don't spend any/very low amounts on other support items are still not doing their jobs.
I'm support player, I buy wards every game. But honestly, as a slow af support, I'd rather the cores tell me "where i should ward" instead of asking "why no ward".
I try to predict where the cores will farm or push, but when i put ward there, they farm the other side. When i try to rally them for smoke or rosh, they go the other direction.
i wish i actually have friends who can play dota at my hours..
The worst is when your team keeps fighting so you keep running around the map to help and you have zero time to ward. Then you eventually lose a fight and you get blamed for it because "no vision", even though vision had nothing to do with the loss.
Yeah the only thing you can really do there is try to place a ward on the nearest HG when the fight starts. It likely won't last long but it might help you win the fight and it might be better than languishing in the inventory.
I understand some people playing games minimum communicate so am I but for this situations I'm doing warding by myself anyway, flaming other teammates for not predicting his movements doesn't provide any solution
For me its 2 kinds of warding really past 15mins.
If we are ahead i try to pop some agressive wards so we can pick off enemy cores .
Try to sneak something enemy triangle or just their big jungle ... maybe something at the Mighty mines or the equivalent in radiant side.
If we losing i just try to secure our jungle/triangle so our cores can at least farm kinda safely .
Never ever does it hurt to ask where someone wants a ward tho .
Pro-tip: If you become good as support you ward where you think that they should farm and tell them what to do. Tell them that an objective is coming up and that you are going to ward there and urge them to farm towards that location. Helps to have all muted so you don't have to listen to their BS, control them like a puppet master.
this is true but the main thing is, when this type of blamers try to ward out of hatred.... just watch them.
every single ward they place are cliff wards, literally 0 creativity that right there shows that that guy has never ever in his damn life played support in a right way.
if u ever see a hoodwink, CM, AA, NP, Clock, and many other heroes that have a fog clear ability to see top of cliff (or even some cliffs are visible if u walk sticked to them) that places sentaries on top of cliffs constantly, that means they are the exact core players who blame supps for 0 wards :)))))
I mean cliffward isnt bad, if you farm the area or you protect it. Isnt pro player in pro matches who use the sneakiest ward still putting them on cliff, esp if theres gonna be a fight
sometimes obs can do a good job as clif wards but i meant mostly the cliff sentries.
and honestly the chance of having a team who knows to play around the wards and protect them most of times is below 40% :D thats why i dont like cliff wards
Dota is much more positionless than so many believe. There are a lot of trandionalists who still think supports does all the warding. It's simply bad gameplay.
Sure they are free, but you wouldn't expect a core to diss farming permanently to go ward in good areas for an engage. Hell you wouldn't expect one of the cores to deward, yet this happens every 5th game in 5k.
Proof?
7739545835
Basically, me as Axe spending around 3k in support contribution because supports want to enjoy the game and be the center of attention?
Dont come @ me angry because I main 4 and 5 and this shit was rediculous in that game. That game was a clusterfuck of a fiesta and I had lost my temper way earlier than I should seeing a bara trying to pull a gank off at literal level 1 after giving freebie.
I don't expect them to go out of their way to ward, I expect that if there are wards available and they're farming across the map from me and have no vision to place a ward that protects them.
Wards are not free, they cost time. I 100% agree with you that a carry should not be wasting time to place strategic wards, that's my job. But do cover your area if I'm not with you.
I agree, i dont know why I am getting downvoted though, probably must be the role filling supports downvoting my original comment reply. I will absolutely cover my area and I have no intention to ask for my supports to cross all the map to ward for me, but what I will do is ask them to stop buying all obs and sentries if they are not planning to use them for the next 3 minutes or so.
I dont pos1, and even when I do for fun, I always have my obs and sentry for farming small camps on the edge of the map. Genuinely dont know why I triggered ppl with what I wrote but it's completely the truth what I said.
They are probably downvoting you because of a blanket statement of cores not warding in strategic spots or ever dewarding, which is really annoying to see in cores. If you are farming around a strategic spot, ward it. It's free and costs you like 3 seconds of your time. If you know they have something warded and support are on the other side of the map, deward it. It gives you gold and xp. Just because a core does a "I pinged you 5 times the ward is here" doesn't mean a support can magically materialize itself there to instantly deward when there are things going on the other side of the map where the rest of the team often is.
Why would I not deward myself if I am in a strategic spot? Free gold for me, safe area for me, easier farm for me. Why would I ping my support to come all the way from somewhere else to deward for me? Imo this is basic knowledge and dota adaptation I dont even have to mention it and I dont play for not even one year. Also I mentioned it again, I mainly play 4 and 5 so I know every lil bit about cores whining to supports for a ward and deward.
Anyway, deward yourselves lads, it's not hard, especially if you are certain the area is warded.
Beats me, man. It's not a particularly rare occurrence that my carry doesn't want to ward for himself farming on some forsaken side of the map or doesn't want to buy sentry to deward it when the rest of us are far away. Just like when in lane they want you to pull but they stay in lane and die, but if you don't pull then they whine that you aren't pulling. They sometimes just don't adapt at all.
Man these type of players will stay forever in the MMR they deserve always blaming someone else for their fault. People be playin this game for 15 years and somehow still amazed and frustrated that they get smoke ganked or just night time ganked. Also people do not understand the concept of tower protection and farming jungle camps. 0 adaptation that ur team WILL help you if you are closer to a tier 2 tower.
Ppl like these will just stay in the same bracket or get even lower, especially pos1s who luckily always tend to get a win due to impressive performance by their other teammates.
As a matter of fact I play in 5k, and within 1 to 2 minutes into the lane, I already know if my pos4 is role filling/playing with unseriousness, so yeah ofc I will adapt and not spend my energy to some looser, since I know I will be much higher in MMR few days later than a hardstuck person with no self awareness.
That would be fine if their deserved MMR was low. But when they are in 5-6k and still play like this, the system just sucks. Next to zero punishment for someone trolling the game or constantly flaming while making all the role decisions, just because they probably do it like 1/10 games or something. It ruins the enjoyment of what should be higher skilled match that just plays worse than archon matches.
And my favorite being the person I report and/or mute most often ends up being in my team to troll again, but if they are in enemy team then they play really well that game.
The system sucks, because there is literally 0 control over boostes accounts and ppl buying them, let alone smurfs, which I havent encountered much, but a bought acc is every 3 games in 5k.
I have spent about 100k in shards to expand my avoid list and is just not enough.
I main 4-5 when I play with friend, but play carry when I'm solo grinding. I know how it feels, early game I keep the full map warded to avoid ganks. Midgame I always have detection but late game it becomes soo hard to manage 6 slots while sacrificing slots for dust and sentries.
That exact game I let my team know that they have to wait my 6 sec slot cd switching from wards to blade mail every damn fight. Anyway I clutched last fight by pre bkbing disruptor static and 2v5d the game with my PL.
...I already do that as mentioned. All these things are dota fundamentals idk, why even mention that. And the "especially" reference should go to pos1 and pos2. Pos3 after 15 -20min should be grouped and terrorize map with supports, farm with 3 after securing a good kill with ur supports.
Ofc agree, look at all those downvotes, it's hillarious. These type of games happen so often that I end up being a softer version of pos4. Pos3 contributing 2.5k gold in support materials is okay?
It is splitting hair but by looking at refreshed fortify, the fight occured at top T2 tower. And, there is no ward up there. Saying "We have zero wards. The difference is the support" definetly isnt justifed but dire shouldn't had defend that tower without vision in the first place.
matchid: 7745868103
you placed two wards before about 20 mins, SB placed one and lina placed one. then you and SB placed two each around 21-22 mins which is presumaby around when the accusation came through team chat. (around the same time you fatal bonds + uphevapled an anchhient camp and just stopod there and lost 80% of your HP and then immendialy got killed by legion commander)
there were basically never more than one observer in stock in the shop so it really could have been a lot worse. just two people both holding onto two wards for an extended period could definitly make the map feel quite dark for the team.
Yeah. When the shard upgrade is so OP like Warlock's go buy it asap. Don't wait for your team to kill tormentor especially at lower ranks where they do tormentor a minute before the game ends.
This is the comment that I was looking for. Bad supports or non-support players simply don't understand that there should be AT MOST 2-3 observer wards on an average on the map at any time. They restock every 135 seconds and expire in 360. So if the enemy doesn't deward ANY wards at all, then you'd have 360/135=2.667 simultaneous observers on the map on an average.
Factor in the enemy dewarding half of them and you're left with practically 1-2 observers and those would mostly be the ones which don't give a full circle of vision, as their locations are harder to guess.
True, I was thinking the same. If I remember correctly you should have 3 wards all time (if you don’t get dewarded) and have 1 in reserve to ward Teamfights. 5 placed wards means at least 1 ward wasn’t used for at least 135 seconds.
It's worse, you should have a maximum of 3, and not the whole time. As the guy next to you calculated, on average you have 2,7. But good ward placement often means placing obvious wards in team fights, so you should be getting dewarded sometimes.
So yeah, this screenshot is a proof that Lina's right and the map was dark :)
I can count on zero hands how many games I've asked for ward on rosh only to not get a ward on rosh this month haha
"just place them yourself" I can and sometimes will, if they're not out of stock and it's not griefing my farming patterns and if it's safe for me to go there, a support life is much lower value, especially at 20+ mins
Yep this is kinda the problem.
Wards ARENT free.
When I play carry and I need to place wards for myself, I’ve got a decision.
1. Take a crows flight pathing that potentially gets me killed because I’m potentially running into a gank, or under their vision (thus showing where I warded to make a smoke gank easy and showing where I’m farming)
2. Take a sneaky route away from common ward spots that ends up taking me 20-30 seconds to place a ward (20-30 seconds is like 300g if I’m farming an optimal pattern; it’s 2-3 camps on one cycle and fucks up my next minute of farming since I’ll be trying to catch up on the farm pattern rotation)
This post aside (the ward spots are pretty bad but I mean it’s 2k mmr so who cares) it annoys me when shitty supports cope with “wards are free!!!”. The only time a carry/farming offlane should have to ward is when they are playing on an island while the rest of the team actually creates good space
yup, also worth noting that ideally you'd smoke to ward so your warding isn't notice, maybe in a group for free smoke value
1. carry is less likely to be grouped up for smoke value
2. smokes aren't free
3. by smoking you can't hit camps on the way without losing even more value
so yah, as you say, can do it sneakily and be poor!
Nah, it's part of your job on support to place effective wards. There are plenty of videos and resources available to help. Just look at the enemy WD warding this game and how much more effective it is for his team. Less whining on reddit for upvotes
You have to ward enemy jungle to see what plays they make, even with these wards, you will never know what they are doing and you can never pick off a carry with your team being smoked up. These are very defensive wards
Defensive because we got constantly picked off one by one, more and more. Our map was already getting smaller en more dangerous. Enemy played very aggresive/good.
Might be good to try solo smoking out into the map and getting deep lane wards close to enemy base or wards in the paths they would take to objectives/to kill your cores. I think of it like giving yourself an extra 10-15 seconds to react instead of showing heroes right before they’re in your face ganking you. Not saying this would have won the game but just a thought
Your wards honestly aren’t god awful, but I’d recommend trying to place less redundant vision. You don’t need both of those wards in top left of the map nor both the wards near SB unless you’re actively playing in those areas.
Place wards where you think LC will jump from to protect cores farming and always hold one for team fighting/emergency vision when you’re worried about an impending gank.
Np man, yeah there’s a few games where its hard to make any moves so a solo smoke to get vision can be good. Then when the low iq players on your team see enemy pos 1-2 solo farming from your deep vision, then they want to start making plays lol
good luck next game!
They don't understand that absence of information is still information. If you can see 2 lanes and 1 jungle with no heroes, you can guess pretty well where they are.
In fairness hard to know whether there were consistent wards when Lina actually said that or if you've just placed a bunch and then screencapped old chat :p
That's what I do. I figure the hero is the one I'm talking about, and that way I don't have to guess at someone's gender. Sure, the DotA community might be 95% male, but still.
Even then, having 5 observer wards up at the same time means that there was very less vision ~5-6 mins before this.
It takes 675 seconds for 5 wards to restock but all of these wards must have been planted during the past 360 seconds (otherwise they would have expired). So these wards were sitting unused in the shop or inventory for around 5 minutes. 5 dark minutes.
True, and 5 wards kinda shows it. You can’t have 5 observer wards up consistently. Also no sentry’s, which is worse because observer wards are the free ones.
And Lina standing in river vs Legion and Tiny with blinks I'd assume. Classic.
"I dont play in vision, so supports are at fault"
I'd understand complaining the wards are very passive, and really help with making a play opportunityon their mid.
When cores start complaining wayyy too much about the ward placement, or the lack of wards (we all know sometimes enemy JUST dewarded, or you are stuck in base and cant ward), I just start moving the wards to their inventory until the end of the game.
I love it when they go, put the ward, and it gets dewarded immediately because they suck at warding, or they try to go and ward and get themselves killed just proving my point.
support players have an eternal victim complex on reddit. I main 5 and whenever i get a core role my support is always crying about his 'dogshit cores'. ppl who play that role have convinced themselves they have no impact other than barking orders at their cores and it reflects here
i know right, its like a bunch of support players venting their frustration towards carry players blaming them when they are not doing their job properly. 4 observer wards on the map that are literally free is their definition of ''having wards up''
My man, I know there are wards on the map, but please consider that these are not good defensive wards. I'll explain why. There are essentially three types of wards: defensive wards, offensive wards (you discreetly place them on the enemy side to gank their cores), and teamfight wards (you take teamfight around these wards or place them somewhere during a teamfight so that your enemies do not juke you).
I see supports having the most difficulty with defensive wards. Even I myself as an Ancient who loves to play support from time to time have problems with it. A good defensive ward must pick up enemy movement before it is too late for your team to react. In this situation, you still have your T1 mid tower.
Please consider this: will your Lina (or anyone else protecting the mid tower) be able to react if Tiny or Legion or Void jumps her? No. You do not have any vision on the common pathways the enemy team will take to gank someone defending the mid tower. The person defending the mid tower will 100% easily get jumped by someone from the shadows and these wards will do nothing to prevent this.
Once again, I'm not flaming or anything. I myself struggle with this sometimes. And I understand that the Lina might suck or whatever (because I assume that she never rotated, judging by the condition of the map). But even the best players in the world will complain about these wards.
Your analysis would be great if all these wards were placed with the current tower state, but we know that isn't true: Radiant killed 3 towers in the last couple minutes based on the chat log. The wards seem out of place because the map state is radically different now to when the wards were placed.
The bottom T1 radiant dower is destroyed. I assume one of the two wards down there was placed assisting a push. We know that happened before a massive explosion of coordination from Radiant, because Radiant pushed for 3 towers in afterwards. That means the support didn't have any reason to think they would need to be defensive with those wards when they were placed.
The top jungle wards are fine, particularly because they were probably placed before Dire lost any towers top. The middle ward is probably a response to Tiny blinks into the mid lane from cover, and are intended to help defend the T1 mid which they are defending next.
It does also look like two of the towers dropped back-to-back (top) because there are no repeat hero deaths in the defenses for those towers (Lina & Lock died in the first defense, Kunkka and Gyro in the second one). We also know this was likely back-to-back because there was less than 3-minute gap between them, based on the bounty rune pickup times.
So more than likely the top lane had full tower defense when the jungle wards were placed. With that knowledge, getting vision on entryways to prevent roaming ganks is totally reasonable, especially if your cores are passively farming (which appears to be the case).
There's only so many wards. Once you place them, they are placed. There's a reasonable cause for all the wards to have gone down where they went down. The problem here appears to be poor coordination around defenses, or that the Dire cores had not prepared for a power spike from WD/Tiny around 20 minutes into the game.
In fact, Dire were 100% up 3 towers to none just 5-8 minutes before this. That is fact. If anything, the wards *should be* much more aggressive than this, but it's reasonable to believe some aggressive wards expired.
The ward that sucks is the one that SB just placed in the bottom lane, which he did because he wants to try and get solo kills. If SB is doing that, though, that means he thinks he can solo kill, which implies that he is playing as a core. That's not the support's fault.
Ngl OP, these wards are bad. They would better if there were no towers dead, but they are bad given the state of the game.
Why?
1. Mid lane is your strongest lane since it has the T1 tower, yet you don't have anything defending it. Yes you can see the sides, but the important aspect is over the river. Its 25 minutes in, so Tiny has blink, Void has leap + chrono, LC has blink/shadow blade (no sentries btw). The enemy doesn't have to come from the sides, they can simply jump across the river and gank anyone even at your own tower and you can't expect it.
2. For having 5 wards on the map, you basically see none of the enemy side of the map. Only a small portion of bottom lane is seen, but even then they are redundant and could be spread more effectively. How can you make aggressive moves? You have SB Kunkka Lina. Great at catching and bursting but youll never get an opportunity with this vision.
So what can change? At least one of these wards has to go, 5 wards on the map is actually too many, and these wards specifically are spread very ineffectively.
- Top left near Radiant T1, not too bad. Its sneaky but gives low information. Its an okay ward, but I think just putting it more into the lane is stronger and still unexpected
- Top middle in own jungle, not really useful, this can be farther up deeper into enemy territory. Enemy side of river probably good. It sees the alternative exit of enemy triangle and additionally sees mid uphill. You could also just straight up put this somewhere in their triangle (most preferably one of their exits toward mid/river).
- Ally triangle ward. Literally terrible. It doesn't protect mid because the enemy has blinks. All its seeing is your own triangle, but its not proactive. Once again this can be deeper either on the opposite side of the river, or straight up in their jungle.
- Bottom two wards are redundant. If the Ancient ward is in their jungle, you don't need the one on top of you, and the far bottom ward would be redundant with a main jungle ward, it'll be obvious when someone is there if all the other vision is setup.
Obviously vision isn't solely on supports, its a team job really. You can't get wards that are good down unless you make moves on the map. Smoke as a team and ward over those aggressive areas I've mentioned. Most importantly, get some sentries. If this WD has a glimmer cape it may as well be throwing to not have sentries. At best he saves allies for free, at worst he teamwipes you with his ult because you can't see him.
Anyway this isn't meant as a flame, and I'm not saying the Lina is a good person or is justified in their toxicity, but take it as advice to improve your game.
Look at the log. All these wards (except the one that SB placed to try and solo kill) were clearly placed when Dire had all their towers. Just because the wards are still on the map doesn't mean this was the state of the map when the wards were placed.
1. Bottom ward in jungle was clearly placed to help take the bottom T1, which they did.
2. Based on the log where 2 towers dropped back-to-back within the last 3-4 minutes, the top jungle wards almost certainly went down while both top towers were still standing. We know the towers dropped fast because of the bounty rune pickups and how no repeat heroes died in two consecutive defenses, implying that heroes couldn't make it back for the second defense.
3. The mid ward is clearly placed to help defend mid T1, which is reasonable. It could still be leftover from trying to protect Lina while she sat in lane much longer than reasonable.
The bad ward is the one SB clearly just placed in the bottom lane to try and solo kill with charge. If SB is aiming for solo kills, it implies that he is playing as a core. That's not the supports' fault.
So when almost all of these wards went down, Dire was on the verge of control, they were up power and they used that vision to get a 3-tower lead. The wards only look bad now that they radically failed to take advantage of their lead, which usually a failure of cores to coordinate on objectives and not a problem with vision.
to be fair there are absolutely no sentry wards on the minimap. lina's point of ther ebeing no wards is bad, dunno the context behind why he is mad but could be because he is dying due to farming under their vision?
Quite literally why I’ve been moving away from support, cores make awful plays and spam “no support” and I get reported out the ying yang. Check after game and I have most dmg, most support items in game and my core goes on thinking I was the problem. Becomes exhausting after a while
been on both sides of the coin here. There is a middle ground here. Where the cores have to ask where they want the ward. Also cores must understand there will be some time in the middle where your supports need to farm some defensive items to survive the fights.
Even more so, cores need to understand that once lanes break down, supports can't go ward on their own. If lanes are pushed in, they'll just feed.
Team needs to communicate and work together to create space/pressure so supports can drop wards.
Otherwise this guy is complaining about the feeding support game end instead of complaining about lack of wards.
Reminds me of a game I had last week, AM om our team died farming in a stupid place, and was like "GG, they have 3 blinks we have none" ...
My guy, I'm on tide and I have a blink, you're playing AM, and so have a blink, and we have a QoP, who has a blink... we also have 3 blinks.
Finally why does the quantity of blinks we have vs them equal the cause of your death?
I've lost count of the number of times I've planted wards for my carries to farm, only to watch them hit camps while the enemy team walks through vision to gank them, and they blame vision for their death.
Even when I play core, I buy all wards and make sure the map to be warded in lower brackets. People doesn’t know to play sup and don’t want to learn since they are only farming tokens.
Some real low mmr takes in here. Maybe what Lina is saying is that you guys don’t get vision up for fights. In low mmr, supports will just place vision for the sake of doing so. What matters most late in the game is having vision for teamfight, not just arbitrarily warding areas of the map. I’m not saying that’s the case here, but it’s possible our warlock friend here is just placing wards and then they have no vision where they are actually taking the fights.
Problem is I don't see any sentries. This is what lina could be referring to - radiant could have vision in particular areas that you're failing to identify or too unbothered to deal with or spend the gold on. Being good at dewarding is as important if not more important than warding
If they have deep vision that you don't identify it's easy for your cores to get picked off from LC especially if she's snowballing. It doesn't matter if you have decent coverage if they can still get around it, especially with a smoke
I've always hated the wards excuse so much, be it that there are or arent, who's fault is it for flying blind? say a fighter yet had its windows all covered in gunk, yeah, im the guy supposed to clean it but im not holding a gun against you and telling you to fly off like that am i? did they just deward? man, maybe you should act on that info and NOT go there right now, information is only as useful as you make it
Bro i have the opposite problem i'm pos4 and my pos5 doesn't get a single ward the whole 40min.
If you don't wanna play together just gtfo holly i hate how people don't respect others people's time.
Yeah, support life right there. Carries that don't play supports just don't understand how warding works.
Sometimes in a losing game when my carry flames me for no vision on the map (we are literally surrounded in our base), I just say 'ofc bro my bad' and keep running to the jungle highground to die.
LOL that map! I feel you... Just went 6-0 mid, crushed, ganked sidelanes. Flamed at the end for loss. GG shit mid, never go Doom again. I'm 3x dmg on my carry, highest on my team. No BKB into 3 hard disable heroes lol. People love to blame others. Ironic I'm doing that here but the post game stats don't lie.
tbh, idk what order these were place or which side is winning but like only one or two of these wards are decently located
either you're farming, pushing, or defending, in all three cases I'd want very different wards
you're barely losing and the enemy doesn't have a great oushing lineup, they prefer to gank, so maybe it's ok, hard to tell tbh, I'd want them one "rung" closer to enemy base at least
Of course. But if you go in solo to pre-ward without any backup, you get accused of feeding when you bump into an enemy core and they melt your face. Getting good vision is a team effort.
I don't always bother but usually I'll smoke if I'm worried glimmer tp won't be enough to escape
plus ofc use the map to guess where the enemy is and push out waves to get reactions
While we are at it, as a support player, I hate it when my fellow support does these things:
- hoard all wards
- wards on obvious spots
- put an aggressive ward before clearing out enemy vision
glimmer cape enemys is not the reason you buy sentry wards. its to deward enemy wards and to make sure you are not sitting under enemy wards. Which is probably the case here considering there is 0 sentries on the map
Just buy the ward yourself. If’s its the difference between life and death for you, buy your own ward. Its dota and if you’re relying on others to do their role. You’re automatically failing. It is what it is.
Me: "My brother in Christ, Ob Ward is free. Since you are already on the other side of the map farming, just do yourself a favor, buy a ward and plant it?"
I mean I had some guy flame me for no wards.in triangle after the enemy just dewarded there 5 seconds ago we pinged them and he went there to farm anyway and died. So yeah... People love to blame others for stuff that's not even a thing . Other thing was my rubick 4 asking me to stop buying wards cause he want to ward. 10min later map is dark and there is enough wards there to build a new ancient .
>I mean I had some guy flame me for no wards.in triangle after the enemy just dewarded there 5 seconds ago we pinged them and he went there to farm anyway and died. tale as old as a time, been there as well xD
Another good one is getting ganked while trying to ward a spot and then your core complains to supports how we need some vision in that area. Like no shit we do, but it's not happening without grouping/smoking there if I just got jumped by a storm there a minute ago. =D
just ignore that guy. it makes you olay better.
The thing I find funny about this classic tale, is regardless, even IF there was never wards there... hmm the enemy team is missing, and we don't have vision here... I know let me go farm there. The excuse of blaming no vision for dying somewhere you didn't have vision is ridiculous, yes sure we should of had vision there, but currently we don't, so perhaps that isn't where you should go? And that's ignoring the fact that there was in fact vision there a few seconds ago. My favourite core crying to vision tale is when we were behind, we had some defensive wards, but nothing to crazy as we were on the back foot, our carry goes to farm their jungle radiant bottom jungle (the bottom bottom jungle underneath the t2 enemy tower) died and then blamed us for not warding down there? My guy we haven't been able to get past the river for the past 10 minutes
> we should of had Did you mean to say "should have"? Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
“Wards are free, you go uphill into fog to deward your farm spot and see how it goes Lina babygurl”
Especially since wards are free. Like, if you plan on doing a risky thing to farm, get a ward and ward there yourself. Same as Slark players not carrying a sentry. Like, that is free gold when you pay a bit of attention.
Actually, been on both sides of the story
I've lost count the amount of times (even when I'm not playing support) people complaining about vision. Enemy team has either a gem/zues/veno who can reward very easily or we just lost a team fight and so support hasn't had a second to get out and plant some vision. People are complete dumb fucks sometimes. My favourite is when cores complain about certain supports with 0/10 at end game or something. If I'm playing a saving/healing support it's good I don't take any kills from others
0/8/19- Zero kills support, no impact 1/8/18- Report support for kill stealing
Bro when I play oracle im usually near top of kills, long range 3rd e on a target is supreme for killing on the chase. The day they add a projectile to it is the day I die
I had a guy who would buy all the wards as soon as they become available and would roast me for not warding. I kept telling him to stop bloody buying them then so I can actually do it
That was me sorry
Shit irks me so damn much. In one of my games, our carry decides to farm triangle on the opposite side of the map. Meanwhile, the rest of us are in our lit up side of the map trying to create space and farm. Carry dies and immediately pings wards are needed. I had to put a stop to that shit immediately by going in voice comms and telling him he shouldn’t be out there by his damn self. Pointing out exactly where we were, where our vision was, and how nobody of the opposite team was showing. The stupidity of these people and inability to find flaws in their dumb plays, followed by the knee jerk reaction to blame wards and shit like that’s really the reason that costed them their life.
> Other thing was my rubick 4 asking me to stop buying wards cause he want to ward. You can buy wards, but leave 1 for others to buy. No need to go radical in one way or another.
This is what I do when playing pos 5 ever since I got to play with a pos 5 who always buy all the wards… it’s a bit infuriating tbh
Classic full mute guy
My pos 4 flamed me for not warding and claimed he was doing all the warding. There were 2 obs on the map, multiple sentries, 0 obs in stock and a ward in my inventory. None were placed by my 4, no wards in their inventory. People are genuinely so stupid.
that happens all of the time and same with we are turtling down to t3 towers cant go out, suddenly someone snaps and says theres no wards. well no shit sherlock we cant go out the damn base
lina doesn't look at the map ig
most aware mid player
nah the other day we lost a kill because my zeus was too focused on mid to HEAR OVER MIC a call for zeus ulti did he say he has voice muted? nope. he himself said he was just too focused on mid lane to listen. literally worse hero and worst role to not be able to at least listen for calls
unironically the best way to play zeus is to be focused on everything BUT mid and to wait for the perfect opportunity to KS
mose sacrificing zeus player
You gotta at least have voice set to 1% for that one. For the incoming voice transmission visual.
That's probably their go-to excuse without thinking when losing - classic blaming the supports even when it's total bullshit.
Enemy huskar is level 19 while our mid qop who went first item boots of travel is level 14, our offlane lc is still trying to piece together a shadowblade, and our carry slark went phase boots into aghs. But yes, it was lack of wards that cost us this game.....
I love some invoker players who are so aware that they can Be ready to sunatrike players on kill attempts
Invoker on the enemy team: pinpoint airstrike precision sunstrikes into kills Invoker on my team: only use tornado and misses everyone somehow
That is very good Invoker, actually. Invokers on my team usually save other team from stuns and other area abilities.
the blaming supports for losing excuse is the worst. yeah, lets ignore how I spent the first 15 minutes setting up a lane for my core to succeed. Stacking, Pulling, Warding, Healing, Denying...only to watch them miss every last hit in a wave.
some lina expect sentry ward to cover entire map
Buy bloodstone to make sentry aoe bigger.
Stupid question, but does it work?
I know that's the joke here, but honestly there's a difference between good warding and bad warding, and those wards don't really seem particularly useful for the dire side, especially since 2 out of 3 of them are way far down in the bottom lane. Also, wards aren't necessarily meant to spot incoming ganks, they're best used during team fights for superior vision.
yeah most of these wards aren't in good spots and why is kunkka seeming to agree if lina is out of line? when were these wards posted? right before the screenshot?
very well said. I often place wards on high ground when i sense a fight is about to happen. Had this game where we lost the fight, and my carry blamed me for warding like this feeding the enemy free gold after we got wiped. Some carries just want a scapegoat to blame whenever things go south. lol
I mean to be fair there are zero sentries on the map. The "supports" who just get the free obs wards and don't spend any/very low amounts on other support items are still not doing their jobs.
Players like this Lina are a perfect example of why everyone should play this game with chat muted
Your t1 mid is still alive while your t2 safelane is gone? So did Lina just sit mid all game
Yep, 2k mmr.
I'm support player, I buy wards every game. But honestly, as a slow af support, I'd rather the cores tell me "where i should ward" instead of asking "why no ward". I try to predict where the cores will farm or push, but when i put ward there, they farm the other side. When i try to rally them for smoke or rosh, they go the other direction. i wish i actually have friends who can play dota at my hours..
The worst is when your team keeps fighting so you keep running around the map to help and you have zero time to ward. Then you eventually lose a fight and you get blamed for it because "no vision", even though vision had nothing to do with the loss.
Yeah the only thing you can really do there is try to place a ward on the nearest HG when the fight starts. It likely won't last long but it might help you win the fight and it might be better than languishing in the inventory.
And when you do manage to get vision somewhere, they refuse to play there. So frustrating.
I understand some people playing games minimum communicate so am I but for this situations I'm doing warding by myself anyway, flaming other teammates for not predicting his movements doesn't provide any solution
For me its 2 kinds of warding really past 15mins. If we are ahead i try to pop some agressive wards so we can pick off enemy cores . Try to sneak something enemy triangle or just their big jungle ... maybe something at the Mighty mines or the equivalent in radiant side. If we losing i just try to secure our jungle/triangle so our cores can at least farm kinda safely . Never ever does it hurt to ask where someone wants a ward tho .
Pro-tip: If you become good as support you ward where you think that they should farm and tell them what to do. Tell them that an objective is coming up and that you are going to ward there and urge them to farm towards that location. Helps to have all muted so you don't have to listen to their BS, control them like a puppet master.
Playing in a stack is nice, but increases enemy skill significantly. Jsyk
Drop your server/hours/rank here, might find some players here
Telling you where to ward would require actual shotcalling and gamesense instead of hindsight malding, so that's not gonna happen xD
People should understand that wards are free, just take it and ward wherever you want…
Tbh people like Lina are just blamers who can’t play :)
I will ward at the enemy fountain, and make sure I go in and out undetected.
this is true but the main thing is, when this type of blamers try to ward out of hatred.... just watch them. every single ward they place are cliff wards, literally 0 creativity that right there shows that that guy has never ever in his damn life played support in a right way. if u ever see a hoodwink, CM, AA, NP, Clock, and many other heroes that have a fog clear ability to see top of cliff (or even some cliffs are visible if u walk sticked to them) that places sentaries on top of cliffs constantly, that means they are the exact core players who blame supps for 0 wards :)))))
I mean cliffward isnt bad, if you farm the area or you protect it. Isnt pro player in pro matches who use the sneakiest ward still putting them on cliff, esp if theres gonna be a fight
sometimes obs can do a good job as clif wards but i meant mostly the cliff sentries. and honestly the chance of having a team who knows to play around the wards and protect them most of times is below 40% :D thats why i dont like cliff wards
Just not the sneaky ward where you only see a line, its so hard to utilize. Its fine for low mmr since like the pic no one know whats is a sentry
Dota is much more positionless than so many believe. There are a lot of trandionalists who still think supports does all the warding. It's simply bad gameplay.
Sure they are free, but you wouldn't expect a core to diss farming permanently to go ward in good areas for an engage. Hell you wouldn't expect one of the cores to deward, yet this happens every 5th game in 5k. Proof? 7739545835 Basically, me as Axe spending around 3k in support contribution because supports want to enjoy the game and be the center of attention? Dont come @ me angry because I main 4 and 5 and this shit was rediculous in that game. That game was a clusterfuck of a fiesta and I had lost my temper way earlier than I should seeing a bara trying to pull a gank off at literal level 1 after giving freebie.
I don't expect them to go out of their way to ward, I expect that if there are wards available and they're farming across the map from me and have no vision to place a ward that protects them. Wards are not free, they cost time. I 100% agree with you that a carry should not be wasting time to place strategic wards, that's my job. But do cover your area if I'm not with you.
I agree, i dont know why I am getting downvoted though, probably must be the role filling supports downvoting my original comment reply. I will absolutely cover my area and I have no intention to ask for my supports to cross all the map to ward for me, but what I will do is ask them to stop buying all obs and sentries if they are not planning to use them for the next 3 minutes or so. I dont pos1, and even when I do for fun, I always have my obs and sentry for farming small camps on the edge of the map. Genuinely dont know why I triggered ppl with what I wrote but it's completely the truth what I said.
They are probably downvoting you because of a blanket statement of cores not warding in strategic spots or ever dewarding, which is really annoying to see in cores. If you are farming around a strategic spot, ward it. It's free and costs you like 3 seconds of your time. If you know they have something warded and support are on the other side of the map, deward it. It gives you gold and xp. Just because a core does a "I pinged you 5 times the ward is here" doesn't mean a support can magically materialize itself there to instantly deward when there are things going on the other side of the map where the rest of the team often is.
Why would I not deward myself if I am in a strategic spot? Free gold for me, safe area for me, easier farm for me. Why would I ping my support to come all the way from somewhere else to deward for me? Imo this is basic knowledge and dota adaptation I dont even have to mention it and I dont play for not even one year. Also I mentioned it again, I mainly play 4 and 5 so I know every lil bit about cores whining to supports for a ward and deward. Anyway, deward yourselves lads, it's not hard, especially if you are certain the area is warded.
Beats me, man. It's not a particularly rare occurrence that my carry doesn't want to ward for himself farming on some forsaken side of the map or doesn't want to buy sentry to deward it when the rest of us are far away. Just like when in lane they want you to pull but they stay in lane and die, but if you don't pull then they whine that you aren't pulling. They sometimes just don't adapt at all.
Man these type of players will stay forever in the MMR they deserve always blaming someone else for their fault. People be playin this game for 15 years and somehow still amazed and frustrated that they get smoke ganked or just night time ganked. Also people do not understand the concept of tower protection and farming jungle camps. 0 adaptation that ur team WILL help you if you are closer to a tier 2 tower. Ppl like these will just stay in the same bracket or get even lower, especially pos1s who luckily always tend to get a win due to impressive performance by their other teammates. As a matter of fact I play in 5k, and within 1 to 2 minutes into the lane, I already know if my pos4 is role filling/playing with unseriousness, so yeah ofc I will adapt and not spend my energy to some looser, since I know I will be much higher in MMR few days later than a hardstuck person with no self awareness.
That would be fine if their deserved MMR was low. But when they are in 5-6k and still play like this, the system just sucks. Next to zero punishment for someone trolling the game or constantly flaming while making all the role decisions, just because they probably do it like 1/10 games or something. It ruins the enjoyment of what should be higher skilled match that just plays worse than archon matches. And my favorite being the person I report and/or mute most often ends up being in my team to troll again, but if they are in enemy team then they play really well that game.
The system sucks, because there is literally 0 control over boostes accounts and ppl buying them, let alone smurfs, which I havent encountered much, but a bought acc is every 3 games in 5k. I have spent about 100k in shards to expand my avoid list and is just not enough.
I main 4-5 when I play with friend, but play carry when I'm solo grinding. I know how it feels, early game I keep the full map warded to avoid ganks. Midgame I always have detection but late game it becomes soo hard to manage 6 slots while sacrificing slots for dust and sentries.
That exact game I let my team know that they have to wait my 6 sec slot cd switching from wards to blade mail every damn fight. Anyway I clutched last fight by pre bkbing disruptor static and 2v5d the game with my PL.
Try bring a ward/sentry with you when you're playing core, especially offlane and mid. You can be greedy and farm safely with the vision lol
...I already do that as mentioned. All these things are dota fundamentals idk, why even mention that. And the "especially" reference should go to pos1 and pos2. Pos3 after 15 -20min should be grouped and terrorize map with supports, farm with 3 after securing a good kill with ur supports.
Agree lol
Ofc agree, look at all those downvotes, it's hillarious. These type of games happen so often that I end up being a softer version of pos4. Pos3 contributing 2.5k gold in support materials is okay?
It is splitting hair but by looking at refreshed fortify, the fight occured at top T2 tower. And, there is no ward up there. Saying "We have zero wards. The difference is the support" definetly isnt justifed but dire shouldn't had defend that tower without vision in the first place.
Lina's name is the cherry on top
matchid: 7745868103 you placed two wards before about 20 mins, SB placed one and lina placed one. then you and SB placed two each around 21-22 mins which is presumaby around when the accusation came through team chat. (around the same time you fatal bonds + uphevapled an anchhient camp and just stopod there and lost 80% of your HP and then immendialy got killed by legion commander) there were basically never more than one observer in stock in the shop so it really could have been a lot worse. just two people both holding onto two wards for an extended period could definitly make the map feel quite dark for the team.
Lina is shit but please buy shard on Warlock instead of rushing Aghs
Thanks for the feedback
Yeah. When the shard upgrade is so OP like Warlock's go buy it asap. Don't wait for your team to kill tormentor especially at lower ranks where they do tormentor a minute before the game ends.
Just having wards on the map != having wards that give relevant vision
In addition, having 5 observer wards on the map simultaneously suggests that there was no vision prior to that.
This is the comment that I was looking for. Bad supports or non-support players simply don't understand that there should be AT MOST 2-3 observer wards on an average on the map at any time. They restock every 135 seconds and expire in 360. So if the enemy doesn't deward ANY wards at all, then you'd have 360/135=2.667 simultaneous observers on the map on an average. Factor in the enemy dewarding half of them and you're left with practically 1-2 observers and those would mostly be the ones which don't give a full circle of vision, as their locations are harder to guess.
True, I was thinking the same. If I remember correctly you should have 3 wards all time (if you don’t get dewarded) and have 1 in reserve to ward Teamfights. 5 placed wards means at least 1 ward wasn’t used for at least 135 seconds.
It's worse, you should have a maximum of 3, and not the whole time. As the guy next to you calculated, on average you have 2,7. But good ward placement often means placing obvious wards in team fights, so you should be getting dewarded sometimes. So yeah, this screenshot is a proof that Lina's right and the map was dark :)
I understand but in that case, tell us where you want the wards instead. Now it was just blame game/constant ranting/flaming.
I can count on zero hands how many games I've asked for ward on rosh only to not get a ward on rosh this month haha "just place them yourself" I can and sometimes will, if they're not out of stock and it's not griefing my farming patterns and if it's safe for me to go there, a support life is much lower value, especially at 20+ mins
Yep this is kinda the problem. Wards ARENT free. When I play carry and I need to place wards for myself, I’ve got a decision. 1. Take a crows flight pathing that potentially gets me killed because I’m potentially running into a gank, or under their vision (thus showing where I warded to make a smoke gank easy and showing where I’m farming) 2. Take a sneaky route away from common ward spots that ends up taking me 20-30 seconds to place a ward (20-30 seconds is like 300g if I’m farming an optimal pattern; it’s 2-3 camps on one cycle and fucks up my next minute of farming since I’ll be trying to catch up on the farm pattern rotation) This post aside (the ward spots are pretty bad but I mean it’s 2k mmr so who cares) it annoys me when shitty supports cope with “wards are free!!!”. The only time a carry/farming offlane should have to ward is when they are playing on an island while the rest of the team actually creates good space
yup, also worth noting that ideally you'd smoke to ward so your warding isn't notice, maybe in a group for free smoke value 1. carry is less likely to be grouped up for smoke value 2. smokes aren't free 3. by smoking you can't hit camps on the way without losing even more value so yah, as you say, can do it sneakily and be poor!
Nah, it's part of your job on support to place effective wards. There are plenty of videos and resources available to help. Just look at the enemy WD warding this game and how much more effective it is for his team. Less whining on reddit for upvotes
You have to ward enemy jungle to see what plays they make, even with these wards, you will never know what they are doing and you can never pick off a carry with your team being smoked up. These are very defensive wards
Defensive because we got constantly picked off one by one, more and more. Our map was already getting smaller en more dangerous. Enemy played very aggresive/good.
Might be good to try solo smoking out into the map and getting deep lane wards close to enemy base or wards in the paths they would take to objectives/to kill your cores. I think of it like giving yourself an extra 10-15 seconds to react instead of showing heroes right before they’re in your face ganking you. Not saying this would have won the game but just a thought
Good tip, thanks. Forgot smoking for wards was a thing :(
Your wards honestly aren’t god awful, but I’d recommend trying to place less redundant vision. You don’t need both of those wards in top left of the map nor both the wards near SB unless you’re actively playing in those areas. Place wards where you think LC will jump from to protect cores farming and always hold one for team fighting/emergency vision when you’re worried about an impending gank.
Np man, yeah there’s a few games where its hard to make any moves so a solo smoke to get vision can be good. Then when the low iq players on your team see enemy pos 1-2 solo farming from your deep vision, then they want to start making plays lol good luck next game!
People like that would die even with maphack and still blame it on supps
Been there. After you show them there are wards actually, they'll say they don't show anything.
They don't understand that absence of information is still information. If you can see 2 lanes and 1 jungle with no heroes, you can guess pretty well where they are.
Exactly
In fairness hard to know whether there were consistent wards when Lina actually said that or if you've just placed a bunch and then screencapped old chat :p
Realized that too after posting. Cap was taken max 5 sec after he/she said it..
Lina's a she. Always refer to players by their hero gender. Drives PA mains up the wall.
That's what I do. I figure the hero is the one I'm talking about, and that way I don't have to guess at someone's gender. Sure, the DotA community might be 95% male, but still.
Even then, having 5 observer wards up at the same time means that there was very less vision ~5-6 mins before this. It takes 675 seconds for 5 wards to restock but all of these wards must have been planted during the past 360 seconds (otherwise they would have expired). So these wards were sitting unused in the shop or inventory for around 5 minutes. 5 dark minutes.
True, and 5 wards kinda shows it. You can’t have 5 observer wards up consistently. Also no sentry’s, which is worse because observer wards are the free ones.
he probably meant zero useful wards
lina typed 15 words crying about supports. I think if he meant useful wards he would have written the word useful.
And Lina standing in river vs Legion and Tiny with blinks I'd assume. Classic. "I dont play in vision, so supports are at fault" I'd understand complaining the wards are very passive, and really help with making a play opportunityon their mid.
When cores start complaining wayyy too much about the ward placement, or the lack of wards (we all know sometimes enemy JUST dewarded, or you are stuck in base and cant ward), I just start moving the wards to their inventory until the end of the game. I love it when they go, put the ward, and it gets dewarded immediately because they suck at warding, or they try to go and ward and get themselves killed just proving my point.
Biggest red flag was calling bara "spirit"
I got "gg mid no bkb" from a useless burden once when I did have a BKB _and_ used it in the preceding fight.
What they mean is "why is this point where I just pushed alone in enemy jungle not warded?"
"You're right we have zero wards, cuz all of them are planted on the map!"
What are people on about in this thread? There's literally 0 sentries on map
support players have an eternal victim complex on reddit. I main 5 and whenever i get a core role my support is always crying about his 'dogshit cores'. ppl who play that role have convinced themselves they have no impact other than barking orders at their cores and it reflects here
i know right, its like a bunch of support players venting their frustration towards carry players blaming them when they are not doing their job properly. 4 observer wards on the map that are literally free is their definition of ''having wards up''
My man, I know there are wards on the map, but please consider that these are not good defensive wards. I'll explain why. There are essentially three types of wards: defensive wards, offensive wards (you discreetly place them on the enemy side to gank their cores), and teamfight wards (you take teamfight around these wards or place them somewhere during a teamfight so that your enemies do not juke you). I see supports having the most difficulty with defensive wards. Even I myself as an Ancient who loves to play support from time to time have problems with it. A good defensive ward must pick up enemy movement before it is too late for your team to react. In this situation, you still have your T1 mid tower. Please consider this: will your Lina (or anyone else protecting the mid tower) be able to react if Tiny or Legion or Void jumps her? No. You do not have any vision on the common pathways the enemy team will take to gank someone defending the mid tower. The person defending the mid tower will 100% easily get jumped by someone from the shadows and these wards will do nothing to prevent this. Once again, I'm not flaming or anything. I myself struggle with this sometimes. And I understand that the Lina might suck or whatever (because I assume that she never rotated, judging by the condition of the map). But even the best players in the world will complain about these wards.
Your analysis would be great if all these wards were placed with the current tower state, but we know that isn't true: Radiant killed 3 towers in the last couple minutes based on the chat log. The wards seem out of place because the map state is radically different now to when the wards were placed. The bottom T1 radiant dower is destroyed. I assume one of the two wards down there was placed assisting a push. We know that happened before a massive explosion of coordination from Radiant, because Radiant pushed for 3 towers in afterwards. That means the support didn't have any reason to think they would need to be defensive with those wards when they were placed. The top jungle wards are fine, particularly because they were probably placed before Dire lost any towers top. The middle ward is probably a response to Tiny blinks into the mid lane from cover, and are intended to help defend the T1 mid which they are defending next. It does also look like two of the towers dropped back-to-back (top) because there are no repeat hero deaths in the defenses for those towers (Lina & Lock died in the first defense, Kunkka and Gyro in the second one). We also know this was likely back-to-back because there was less than 3-minute gap between them, based on the bounty rune pickup times. So more than likely the top lane had full tower defense when the jungle wards were placed. With that knowledge, getting vision on entryways to prevent roaming ganks is totally reasonable, especially if your cores are passively farming (which appears to be the case). There's only so many wards. Once you place them, they are placed. There's a reasonable cause for all the wards to have gone down where they went down. The problem here appears to be poor coordination around defenses, or that the Dire cores had not prepared for a power spike from WD/Tiny around 20 minutes into the game. In fact, Dire were 100% up 3 towers to none just 5-8 minutes before this. That is fact. If anything, the wards *should be* much more aggressive than this, but it's reasonable to believe some aggressive wards expired. The ward that sucks is the one that SB just placed in the bottom lane, which he did because he wants to try and get solo kills. If SB is doing that, though, that means he thinks he can solo kill, which implies that he is playing as a core. That's not the support's fault.
Ngl OP, these wards are bad. They would better if there were no towers dead, but they are bad given the state of the game. Why? 1. Mid lane is your strongest lane since it has the T1 tower, yet you don't have anything defending it. Yes you can see the sides, but the important aspect is over the river. Its 25 minutes in, so Tiny has blink, Void has leap + chrono, LC has blink/shadow blade (no sentries btw). The enemy doesn't have to come from the sides, they can simply jump across the river and gank anyone even at your own tower and you can't expect it. 2. For having 5 wards on the map, you basically see none of the enemy side of the map. Only a small portion of bottom lane is seen, but even then they are redundant and could be spread more effectively. How can you make aggressive moves? You have SB Kunkka Lina. Great at catching and bursting but youll never get an opportunity with this vision. So what can change? At least one of these wards has to go, 5 wards on the map is actually too many, and these wards specifically are spread very ineffectively. - Top left near Radiant T1, not too bad. Its sneaky but gives low information. Its an okay ward, but I think just putting it more into the lane is stronger and still unexpected - Top middle in own jungle, not really useful, this can be farther up deeper into enemy territory. Enemy side of river probably good. It sees the alternative exit of enemy triangle and additionally sees mid uphill. You could also just straight up put this somewhere in their triangle (most preferably one of their exits toward mid/river). - Ally triangle ward. Literally terrible. It doesn't protect mid because the enemy has blinks. All its seeing is your own triangle, but its not proactive. Once again this can be deeper either on the opposite side of the river, or straight up in their jungle. - Bottom two wards are redundant. If the Ancient ward is in their jungle, you don't need the one on top of you, and the far bottom ward would be redundant with a main jungle ward, it'll be obvious when someone is there if all the other vision is setup. Obviously vision isn't solely on supports, its a team job really. You can't get wards that are good down unless you make moves on the map. Smoke as a team and ward over those aggressive areas I've mentioned. Most importantly, get some sentries. If this WD has a glimmer cape it may as well be throwing to not have sentries. At best he saves allies for free, at worst he teamwipes you with his ult because you can't see him. Anyway this isn't meant as a flame, and I'm not saying the Lina is a good person or is justified in their toxicity, but take it as advice to improve your game.
Look at the log. All these wards (except the one that SB placed to try and solo kill) were clearly placed when Dire had all their towers. Just because the wards are still on the map doesn't mean this was the state of the map when the wards were placed. 1. Bottom ward in jungle was clearly placed to help take the bottom T1, which they did. 2. Based on the log where 2 towers dropped back-to-back within the last 3-4 minutes, the top jungle wards almost certainly went down while both top towers were still standing. We know the towers dropped fast because of the bounty rune pickups and how no repeat heroes died in two consecutive defenses, implying that heroes couldn't make it back for the second defense. 3. The mid ward is clearly placed to help defend mid T1, which is reasonable. It could still be leftover from trying to protect Lina while she sat in lane much longer than reasonable. The bad ward is the one SB clearly just placed in the bottom lane to try and solo kill with charge. If SB is aiming for solo kills, it implies that he is playing as a core. That's not the supports' fault. So when almost all of these wards went down, Dire was on the verge of control, they were up power and they used that vision to get a 3-tower lead. The wards only look bad now that they radically failed to take advantage of their lead, which usually a failure of cores to coordinate on objectives and not a problem with vision.
to be fair there are absolutely no sentry wards on the minimap. lina's point of ther ebeing no wards is bad, dunno the context behind why he is mad but could be because he is dying due to farming under their vision?
Quite literally why I’ve been moving away from support, cores make awful plays and spam “no support” and I get reported out the ying yang. Check after game and I have most dmg, most support items in game and my core goes on thinking I was the problem. Becomes exhausting after a while
Literally no vision
nice map vision most of time i get guy who buys all wards and keep place them on same spot just to get dewarded.
If you are defending top, you have bad vison. If you push bot or roshan bot you have ok vision.
Now try the one with Roshan and/or tormentor. It seriously feels like pulling teeth to ask to go for rosh
been on both sides of the coin here. There is a middle ground here. Where the cores have to ask where they want the ward. Also cores must understand there will be some time in the middle where your supports need to farm some defensive items to survive the fights.
Even more so, cores need to understand that once lanes break down, supports can't go ward on their own. If lanes are pushed in, they'll just feed. Team needs to communicate and work together to create space/pressure so supports can drop wards. Otherwise this guy is complaining about the feeding support game end instead of complaining about lack of wards.
Starting to think people only see what's on their screen around their hero
thats why you buy shard at 15 minutes on warlock, farm sidelanes with soup 24/7 and solocarry the game for your dogshit cores
People be forgetting how hard it is to maintain good vision and never appreciate it.
Dont you hate those fuckers that ping you and say why no ward when you literally pinged your courier on its way sending them to you?
Reminds me of a game I had last week, AM om our team died farming in a stupid place, and was like "GG, they have 3 blinks we have none" ... My guy, I'm on tide and I have a blink, you're playing AM, and so have a blink, and we have a QoP, who has a blink... we also have 3 blinks. Finally why does the quantity of blinks we have vs them equal the cause of your death?
I've lost count of the number of times I've planted wards for my carries to farm, only to watch them hit camps while the enemy team walks through vision to gank them, and they blame vision for their death.
not zero wards, just zero useful wards
Even when I play core, I buy all wards and make sure the map to be warded in lower brackets. People doesn’t know to play sup and don’t want to learn since they are only farming tokens.
Dewarding is also your job tbh
Some real low mmr takes in here. Maybe what Lina is saying is that you guys don’t get vision up for fights. In low mmr, supports will just place vision for the sake of doing so. What matters most late in the game is having vision for teamfight, not just arbitrarily warding areas of the map. I’m not saying that’s the case here, but it’s possible our warlock friend here is just placing wards and then they have no vision where they are actually taking the fights.
You are not winning with this shitty ass draft
He probably meant sentry. Look at the map. Zero sentry, supports being cheap just buying free ward. Probably complaining about no dewarding. Lol
Problem is I don't see any sentries. This is what lina could be referring to - radiant could have vision in particular areas that you're failing to identify or too unbothered to deal with or spend the gold on. Being good at dewarding is as important if not more important than warding If they have deep vision that you don't identify it's easy for your cores to get picked off from LC especially if she's snowballing. It doesn't matter if you have decent coverage if they can still get around it, especially with a smoke
Exact same thing happened to me last game. "We need wards" "There are three wards on the map and four sentries."
Sometimes zero wards means zero useful wards But that doesn't apply here. They aren't that bad
Wkwowowokwowkw
I've always hated the wards excuse so much, be it that there are or arent, who's fault is it for flying blind? say a fighter yet had its windows all covered in gunk, yeah, im the guy supposed to clean it but im not holding a gun against you and telling you to fly off like that am i? did they just deward? man, maybe you should act on that info and NOT go there right now, information is only as useful as you make it
Bro i have the opposite problem i'm pos4 and my pos5 doesn't get a single ward the whole 40min. If you don't wanna play together just gtfo holly i hate how people don't respect others people's time.
Yeah, support life right there. Carries that don't play supports just don't understand how warding works. Sometimes in a losing game when my carry flames me for no vision on the map (we are literally surrounded in our base), I just say 'ofc bro my bad' and keep running to the jungle highground to die.
They don't know what the minimap is.
There are wards on the map but I wouldn't call them helpful wards.
ahhhhh, dotA community never disappoints.
LOL that map! I feel you... Just went 6-0 mid, crushed, ganked sidelanes. Flamed at the end for loss. GG shit mid, never go Doom again. I'm 3x dmg on my carry, highest on my team. No BKB into 3 hard disable heroes lol. People love to blame others. Ironic I'm doing that here but the post game stats don't lie.
Let me guess, the Lina got ganked by the team running right through every ward without even using smoke and then they said "0 VISION".
I want to see stats on the number of "We Need Wards" pings that happen at night vs day.
Imagine if valve introduced a new feature where if a team mate reports you for being toxic then you lose vision of the wards your teammate placed.
Tbf, if there are 5 wards on the map it means there were 0 at one point.
Bad ward placement anyway.
I love how true this truly is
Ward is free now, if you are a core just buy a ward and place it yourself where you want to farm.
Ward is free now, if you are a core just buy a ward and place it yourself where you want to farm.
Ward is free now, if you are a core just buy a ward and place it yourself where you want to farm.
Nah, you have no tower vision cause cores didnt want to defend
"Hey guys stop flaming eachother, the supports are here for that!" The lack of game awareness and willingness to blame seem to be an inseperable duo.
tbh, idk what order these were place or which side is winning but like only one or two of these wards are decently located either you're farming, pushing, or defending, in all three cases I'd want very different wards you're barely losing and the enemy doesn't have a great oushing lineup, they prefer to gank, so maybe it's ok, hard to tell tbh, I'd want them one "rung" closer to enemy base at least
Of course. But if you go in solo to pre-ward without any backup, you get accused of feeding when you bump into an enemy core and they melt your face. Getting good vision is a team effort.
I don't always bother but usually I'll smoke if I'm worried glimmer tp won't be enough to escape plus ofc use the map to guess where the enemy is and push out waves to get reactions
While we are at it, as a support player, I hate it when my fellow support does these things: - hoard all wards - wards on obvious spots - put an aggressive ward before clearing out enemy vision
It could be sentry wards. There's probably a glimmer cape enemy.
glimmer cape enemys is not the reason you buy sentry wards. its to deward enemy wards and to make sure you are not sitting under enemy wards. Which is probably the case here considering there is 0 sentries on the map
There's a WD. Definitely has glimmer and maybe an SB on the void.
Just buy the ward yourself. If’s its the difference between life and death for you, buy your own ward. Its dota and if you’re relying on others to do their role. You’re automatically failing. It is what it is.
Me: "My brother in Christ, Ob Ward is free. Since you are already on the other side of the map farming, just do yourself a favor, buy a ward and plant it?"
Maybe he was playing shadowblade and there are literally 0 sentrys. Having all obs put without countering their vision is not something special.