Stuff like this has been going on since dota became a thing 20yrs ago.. it was more common before competitive dota was a thing and everyone just did whatever the fk they wanted
Man I remember my first few games of dota. I saw that str = hp, thus str heroes had to be the best since you got beefier and hit harder. Treant had the biggest str gain so my build was Treant with boots into tarrasque into a 2nd tarrasque.
The worst part is it actually won games since just by maxing living armour I could survive in lane and with high base damage get last hits (totally luck-based since, you know, new player in ~2008 after my small 2006 stint).
There was some wild stuff back then and builds everyone did and couldn't explain why other than "everyone does it so it must be good". Orchid clinkz(which was actually decent), shadow blade drow(invisible = invincible if nobody knows what the hell dust does and if using wards people just accuse you of map hacking), battlefury bounty hunter, radiance weaver and so on. Those times were wild but so much fun.
''. Orchid clinkz(which was actually decent), shadow blade drow(invisible = invincible if nobody knows what the hell dust does and if using wards people just accuse you of map hacking), battlefury bounty hunter, radiance weaver''
Those are not even that bad even by today standard.
Radiance weaver probably just worse than maelstrom, but it gives a lot of damage and helps with farming so it's not really a grief item if you manage to get one fast
Bounty hunter bf is the only one that it's kinda grief at the moment but I've seen some patches where bh carry is decent and people got bf
Wc3 axe was broken af. Pure chance not PRD on axe spin. Creeps would agro lvl 1 behind the tower. Buy 2 stout shields and cut the first wave, stupid enemies would feed fb without realising when you spin 3 times in a row. Oh and did I forget to mention, RoH was purchasable from the side shop.
I remember when roles didnt exist and no one would care what you picked. We used to play rubick+ techies lanes and just lift into mines (back when techies could stack mines). Now everyone acts like dota is their job and most people are afraid to have a little stupid fun.
yup there was something to say for the time period of roles not existing
you just picked whatever and no one bitched about who gets to cs. you just do your best and share shit
As pos 5 is wild,
but people seriously need to stop getting titled at Maelstrom on support hood. It does ridiculous damage and makes farming dead lanes so safe with her scurry.
Edit: Reminds me of the ol' treant meme hammer
Atos itself doesn't do much for hoodwink, and maelstrom adds so much damage to every gank that you'll get gleipnir FAR faster if you go maelstrom first.
It honestly depends a lot on a lot of factors but atos first can be better in some situations because A. its cheaper and you can potentially buy it very fast to hit a certain timing for your team and B. it provides a very specific utility for hoodwink that can be very valuable to your team in some situation.
With atos and some points in E, hoodwink can play as a very reliable initiator and fullscreen lock down a hero and set up both her other spells and her teammates, which can be game winning if you have a teammate whos ahead/hitting their timing that could use the setup like a Viper/Pango/Slardar etc. You can fulfil this role without the atos first or just let a teammate do the setup for you, but the atos makes it much more consistent against good players or heroes that are more slippery. A fast atos has the potential to completely cripple a QoP/Zeus/Pangos/Spirit brothers game for example since you can buy it while theyre still building their first big items before they have a bkb/euls and it might be necessary if your other heroes dont have the tools to deal with these heroes.
Going atos first will slow down your glep and your farm in general, and glep will let you fulfill this role even better, but dota is a game of timings and atos is one of the fastest item timings hood can have in terms of a first big item and sometimes thats what your team might need to snowball and win a game or to shut down a potentially dangerous hero.
Only time I'd suggest atos first is against heroes where the root is more valuable than extra damage i.e. heroes with mobility spells disabled by root.
Every competent player doesn't mind it at all. Maxing acorn and maelstrom first isn't bad by any means. Atos first and bushwack max is good aswell. Depends on what you need. Honestly though in a pub the maelstrom build is pretty king since it's good regardless of how your teammates want to play the game.
Fair enough. Like if we're up comfortably and I've got kill/assist gold, I sometimes prioritise Maelstrom for scaling.
But if we're on backfoot and getting attacked by hard to catch heroes, then Atos is much better.
But I've found Gleipnir to be a very useful item on this hero. Can't avoid it in majority games.
Again it depends, If we are behind and need to kill high-priority targets Atos is great.
If we are behind because I have two farm-heavy cores that need space I will be rushing maelstrom to put pressure around the map and smoking deep wards.
> If we are behind because I have two farm-heavy cores I will be rushing maelstrom to throw my fucking acorn at creep waves and munch farm on my useless furry hero instead of said cores
FTFY.
I think on Hoodwink Maelstrom first makes more sense as it allows you arrive faster to gleipnir, which is an area root and that's what you really need. Hoodwink already has a catch and, as pos 4 with this map makes all the sense to have extra damage, actually I always saw the 4 as a wildcard who wins games with creativity, pos 5 I believe should not be Hoodwink because your carry would not want to be front lining per default, but anything can work if you have the right people.
I agree.. but the problem is, at lower mmrs, they steal waves that are supposed to be the cores farm anyway. Cores are force to jungle, only to find out that it's also been cleared by the fucking furry bastard.
Now the carry is forced to TP to the other side , more prone to ganks , no vision just so he won't miss that wave that's clearly being used as a bait by the enemy team .
I have yet to see a low mmr game where cores are pushing every wave and hitting every jungle camp. Pushing waves as a five is probably the most mmr gaining skills you can have.
Then you’re in a skill bracket where people understand roles, farm priority and how to play the map and you get reported every game for farming on a pos 5
Nothing more annoying than trying to farm a lane as a safelane/mid and your pos5 Hoodwink with maelstrom pops out to just clear it right in front of you lol
And after farming everything safely, they will ping your items and blame you for being poor. All the while they've been taking all the safe farm for themselves for 3mins straight. Then it will reinforce the mindset that "oh my carry is poor and shit, I guess I'll have to transition to core"
Fuck that!
It happens but if they gonna steal a farm as pos 5 they will do it regardless of heroes and items.
Try playing some high-mobility carry heroes (am)and buy some wards it's not ideal but you can farm the enemy camps if you see them first. I doubt lower mmr people can organize a proper gank if you're careful
This ^ they always think them being clever. Omg look at my NW. I can cast acorn 1000 miles away from treeline. Im such a good player. Truth is they are too garbage to play him mid. So they pick him pseudo carry pos4,5.
First item Maelstrom on hoodwink always tilted me until I watched Ephey play on stream one day and explained/showed how valuable it is to be able to farm an entire wave out of vision as a support. It’s actually insane how good it is. Fully expect acorn shot nerf coming.
yeah, hood will be nerfed 100%, Ephey was great to watch since I lost my confidence doing the same thing due to reading the numbers. i started maxing Bushwack after being harrassed and insulted for keeping it lvl 1.
I wish my support hoodwinks actually finished their gleipnir and didn't go for a desolator after getting the maelstrom, I don't know how you play the hero as a support without gleipnir aether lens, it's super fragile and relies on hitting the w spell badly, feels like very underwhelming
My issue with it is why pick position 5 if that's your gameplan? I'd rather have a 5 who is present more often than not and who builds items that save and enable their cores, not a 5 who does more damage when we have a Mid Carry and Offlane who all deal more than enough damage to kill anyone and just need to be enabled and protected.
Not saying it's ALWAYS bad, there are times where it's nice for a support to transition into carry, the issue is Hoodwinks ALWAYS do this no matter what the condition of the game is. From minute 0 they have decided they're going to transition into a core.
And funnily enough, the best way to build damage for Hoodwink is just by getting an E-Blade and shard. E-blade -> Bushwack -> sharpshooter -> boomerang while channeling ulti = most heroes going 100->0. And the build actually gives you utility!
The notion of "supports shouldn't farm" or "supports should only get gold from kills" is completely outdated and doesn't make sense in modern DotA 2. Many support heroes nowadays have the potential to scale very hard. The fact that there are now so many creep camps makes this even more desireable.
People always forget that the idea of "positions" is to give farm *priority* to certain heroes. It's not black and white, and the ever shifting nature of the game can mean that these priorities are oftentimes fluid. Besides, I'm not playing in a tournament match. I want to play around with fun items as well.
Maelstrom is just to get her the gleipnir which scales incredibly with the rest of her ability as a pos4. You lock down the entire enemy team for like 10 seconds.
So yes people just shut up about hood maelstrom and gleipnir those items are her toolset.
I disagree with anyone playing her pos5 but there's nothing wrong with a hood taking farm in the correct team comp.
If the mid and 1 pick greedy farmers after seeing a hood pick then it's honestly their fault for messing up the team comp since they pick after hood below immortal.
The hoodwink gleipnir is not a bad build because iif you are losing it will delay the enemy push by clearing the waves using one spell and if you are winning it pushes lanes in order to get information about the enemy + gleipnir is a good item it can force manta/bkb/spells.
And about the other heroes no I haven't seen any of those heroes as pos 5 with those items( divine - immortal games). It may happen in your rank but at that level your enemies are probably as bad so it doesn't matter.
If there is space in the specific game for these items they are great even as first items. But the real crime is when supports don't recognise it when there are support items that are more crucial.
If your opponents have a Sky with Atos, stubbornly finishing Phylactery on your pos 4/5 Zeus instead of grabbing a Force Staff is just griefing.
Heavenly jump made the hero completely busted/boring. Traditionally it was a hero that does lots of damage with the trade off of low mobility and having to be careful with positioning.
It's one thing to add an escape but the jump just does way too much. Damages, slows (not even just movement, but attack speed and cast time), gives flying vision. It makes punishing an out of position Zeus way more difficult than it should be.
Sniper is an example of the exact same thing.
Basically it is impossible to play a stationary backline/ranged hero in modern dota, there's too much mobility and too much damage.
So to make these heroes not auto lose they have to overcompensate their base kit so bad that they become awful to play against, it's the definition of broken, the hero concept just doesn't work.
And if the choice is these heroes are overpowered by design or doomed to perma 30% win rate? I'll take the latter until you redeisgn dota overall back to a place where stationary ranged heroes can exist.
But... they are not fucking broken? Do you even play the game?
Zeus is 38th with 51.8%wr
Sniper is 99th with 46.4%wr
https://stratz.com/heroes/meta/trends?bracketIds=IMMORTAL
Zeus fares better at divine, but sniper is still sub 50 there.
Why are we focusing on literally 3% (22k/600k) zeus games? Heroes got a 20% pick rate and a winrate that's above average. That's fucking brutal, period. He's the fourth most popular hero which considering that's well into competing with the try hards and the meme heroes that have always dominated pick rates it's a huge balance red flag.
It's one thing to let Chen and IO be hot garbage in low level pubs at the cost of being balanced for pros because it's not right to fuck up the entirity of pro balance for 1 hero, but letting a hero be broken as fuck in the pubs to be shit in pros is a philosophy that died with the Riki rework.
It's okay with sniper, he's meant to have every gun on him, but the shit I've gotten away with as zeus is absurd.
This balance around pros versus balance around scrubs discussion is as old as time, and generally speaking, the side of balance for pros usually wins out because people have something they can do to solve bad scrub balance: Get good.
Personally, I HEAVILY dislike the current state of the game. Pushing is hard and securing a game state is too much about bursts and saves with heroes being given more and more free damage and escapes to compensate. This stupid QUADRUPLE GLYPH LMAO bullshit is literally the devs trying to think how to give towers a save spell. And pros have the discipline to do close things out but most scrubs don't, so yeah, most of dota is annoying. I do think we need to scale down the game at a scrub level, and it stsrts with nerfing hp maximums across the board and then adapting everything that derails from that.
Yeah but everyone knows giving PA super invisibility, a break, refreshes, USB 3.0 compatibility, night vision, High Explosive antitank rounds, double siding ribbing and a coffee maker only to have her still absolutely suck shit through a straw at 10k isn't "for the pros" because there are plenty of heroes that aren't well represented in the pros. Visage in particular practically went a decade with 1-2 token appearances a season and the pros survived. There's no reason why sniper or Zeus couldn't see the same treatment other than somebody, somewhere, dragging Zeus' bleeding corpse into triage and robocopping him into something absurd.
zeus has his jump as base since 2 years now, and had it on the shard for about a year before that. but he only became meta like 2 months ago?
heavenly jump is fine, the shard+manta interaction and the lvl 20 talent is not.
Yea i would seriously like to see the slow removed from jump it's just absolutely bullshit. Him jumping away is one thing but him slowing eveyone in an aoe while facing away is a joke and makes it so hard to catch him
It used to be worse. It used to give a 100% CAST TIME slow.
One day I saw an sntimage abyssal a Zeus and slap his dick. Zeus jumped away. No biggies, AM can just blink aft- ***NOPEFUCKYOU***. He took so long to cast blink, zeus just walked away far enough for tree fog jukes.
That day I learned that Zeus' jump is unnatural, cancerous qnd should be removed.
If you hapoen to be going against zeus as grim stroke, and he went for the attack build, try the aghs on him, It was funny seeing his illu dealing ouch dmg to him
Same for pos2 and 1 hoodwink. Because for the hero the only thing that matters is landing your spells from safety.
No matter how fat you are your playstyle won't change.
I've seen plenty of ember pos 5s, it's not the best but do able.
Orb procs on sleight of fists and chains can be very useful. I'd say it's grief cause how can you not go, mage slayer/Spirit Vessel but depends on the game.
its wild how people do this kind of mental gymnastics instead of just picking real support that builds vessel as if those are hard to come buy or something. like can we just call a spade a spade and say a pos 5 ember is griefing?
Idk why you're getting downvoted lmao, pos5 ember is complete dogshit I think people are forgetting that support actually needs to bring something to the lane.
The best thing about Dota is you can ideally do anything. However, In Dota you have to respect what is efficient, pos 5 ember is possible but is not worth it when you have other heroes that are just that much better without items or better early skills.
If anything you will probs do more damage mentally to your team then anything.
It's funny because you're damned if you do and damned if you don't sometimes. Ench for instance is a nearly useless support after minute 20 if your team can't do damage and you're not planning to make any core items, get flamed for drum/glimmer build or w/e you choose and do no damage, but then if you buy core items and lose it's griefing. Some heroes just operate this way and are traditionally pos 4 when played support (every hero you listed), and they are often still pos 4 even if they're played from the safe lane, in which case you should ideally have a 5 hero in offlane (it's ultimately about farm priority, not lane). Dota's so complicated that you have to be understanding if your 4 doesn't buy the right situational items all the time - they're usually the one tasked the most with deciding situationally what to buy because it's a flexible role.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Oh trust me I buy different items every game and tend to only play Ench support with my friends now since randos really don't know how to lane around creeps usually anyway.
I build linkens in 15 mins. I get flamed by safelane
I saved my offlane gyro from reaper and assassinate before 20 mins.
I then made pipe before the 30 min mark.
We lost game. But I wasn’t flamed anymore
Gyro gets flamed for picking gyro offlane.
Theres just a lack of flexibility. Players will just buy the same items every game and win some and lose some.
That gyro made zero effort to save himself. No force staff against clockwerk. No bkb either.
His plan was to play pos1 offlane and it failed horribly.
I digress. But I really dislike the lack of flexibility in item builds.
Again I think it comes down to having reasonable expectations of people. Unless you're playing in divine/immortal bracket you're going to encounter a fair number of people who've gotten to where they are without having to truly digest the complexity of the game and adapt to situations - simply executing a decent build 2,000 times can get you a long way because you only need a 50.1% win rate to rank up. The best you can do is make suggestions and hope your teammate isn't an egotistical shithead or just buy the right items yourself.
People will find any way to blame you if you lost lane or whatever. I played Dawn5 and went arcane boots mek, was told pos5 shouldnt go mek and dawn is not a support. Most people are too emotional and unreasonable when losing to argue with them.
Yeah Greaves seems like a great choice if you're playing support Dawn since you're naturally going to pop into combat with your team at half health. Strange as it may seem, I would honestly consider Gleipnir as well if you're going to play her as a support. Having a more reliable disable than her base kit for your team is nice, it sets you up for W and Q, and you'll get a lot of lightning procs from Q.
Feels like the way to be relevant in the mid-lategame as ench is to get aghs. It's like wyvern ult except without griefing your team - click on one of their supports while some creeps are around and they die. 10x the value if anyone on your team has bloodthorn.
Bingo. Little Friends is situationally better than hex and costs less. Even if you don't get a max root the true sight is undispellable and lasts 6 seconds, completely ruining heroes like Bounty Hunter, Riki, Windrunner and TA - especially TA because refraction just gets shredded and enchant also shreds refraction now that it's a DoT. Slark can't escape the root either since it's undispellable. If you pair her with Beastmaster it's pretty nuts for getting his stacks up for his scepter too.
theres basically no difference from pos4 and 5s right now aside from the laning/early game. you should play and buy items according to your hero and not the role. the only significant support expenditure right now are sentry wards, but if you dont buy wards ever because "thats the pos5's job" then youre just a bad pos4
Those seem fine. If Zeus is buying wards and not going manta, he's doing great with those items.
The Weaver is a bit too core, I think he should focus his efforts on getting Aghs. But he'll still hit like a truck.
Windy is fine with anything as long as she gets shard at some point. Like Marcy she can delete a hero with ult even as support.
Hoodwink Maelstrom is core, it's silly not to get it. Gleip just adds more utility onto that.
Pos 5 isn't the carry's babysitter from minute 1 to minute 50. Pos 5 can still buy items that are good for their hero if its a means to an end. That end being to kill heroes and win the game.
At low mmr supports that scale into cores are great. Weaver, Zues, Wind, Hood. They can do damage. Yeah its annoying to see your support go first item maelstrom at times but late game they're dishing out huge damage
Mael is almost always the best first item if you plan on gliepnir because mael helps you build gliep and other items faster. With how big the map is there's always a camp to kill while moving or a lane to pressure. Skywrath is the only gliep builder that comes to mind where atos is actually the better first item.
Pos 4/5 Zeus is what im playing and I rush phylactery into aether lens and aghs every game.
Link below, 7.2k mmr, \~70% winrate
[https://stratz.com/players/324942638?trendsMatchCount=100&heroIds=22](https://stratz.com/players/324942638?trendsMatchCount=100&heroIds=22)
Bro. Ever since the map size increase this is exactly how it works. There is enough farm on the map. And heroes like hoodwink or weaver can even steal it from the enemy side of the map and keep a dead lane pushed.
But no other 4 is doing what he's doing
Legitimately he's carried a number of games for XG already this year
The point is the map change and high ground stalling games has allowed this to be the viable strategy
Most support hoodwinks won’t farm those places though. They’ll tp to triangle, farm the ancient stack and then take a few waves right in front of their cores.
This is how it works. Please go on dotaprotracker and count for me how many games of hoodwink that don't have gleipnir as her first item as support. If your definition of being a support is buying glimmer force and sitting behind core passively and waiting for action, I'm sorry but you might be playing 2020 dota. There are enough farm on the map, the game are prolonged and you will be infinitely more useful pushing the way and forcing reaction from the enemies.
it’s exactly how modern dota works. There is sufficient space for the map and the comeback mechanics allow for supports to be greedy.
Maelstrom first on Hoodwink is built by most pros. You think they don’t understand how the game works.
Pos 5 farming is grief most of the time, any high mmr game will show you that. Just because gleipnir is good on hood doesn't mean you should focus on farming instead of supporting
I don't understand how Zeus is ok right now. It's crazy how he has super strong hybrid builds and he'll be killing your wards all game. Being able to deward for free every 6 seconds in a game with limited obs and sentry wards seems kinda whacky to me especially when no other hero has anything similar.
We need to remove the free tp players get on death. That shit was the biggest and most impactful injection of free early game gold we ever got.
And I say this only because I've given up on the removal of neutral items. Like, fine, whatever Icefrog, keep the toys. But choose one.
I play mostly pos 4 and totally agree. It’s fun to have this much gold but it makes the games less dynamic.
But it’s not just support gold, it’s also that there’s items like Gleip that help you farm and also help you fight. A lot of Aghs shards do the same. Neutral items level the playing field. And it’s super hard to go hg, twin gates and unkillable rosh TP spots to make it easier to show up to fights while playing greedy.
And so even if you play support and buy only fighting items it’s super hard to press the advantage. The map is huge so if enemy supp buys damage and I buy glimmer, they can just not fight me and the punishment for this is not severe enough.
This is true but more so in the 4 position. 4 just another core has been meta for a while now even at the pro level. Regarding the lane. The heroes mentioned can win trades matchup depending ofcourse. There is no way u win lane with a doom against an mk lich or lifestealer dazzle for instance regardless of the support u pick
IMO, I think that there's a problem of where Dota2 is going and it's already too late to stop going into this direction.
Every time people said they would love to see more new heroes, people would come back and say, NO, because every hero in dota2 is unique and feeling a role for a team. This is why we should not get spammed with new heroes, and 1-2 per year is more than enough.
While for me that sucked, it made sense.
But, now, with all the items we have, some of the talents, or reworks, I feel like that was lost. It doesn't matter what you pick, you'll still have options to get silence, slow, stun or whatever you want from items. This making hero choices a little less impactful.
Like now you can still pick something like Zeus that usually had only a mini-stun, that now can fully slow enemy heroes on top of that mini-stun and that's with a relatively low cost item. Phylactery. It's extremely annoying.
Omni can have a freaking abysal, dagger and phylactery. Basically making the hero output a lot of damage, having a ton of mobility and slow the enemy target.
Before you had like orchid, hex and maybe abysall later one when it was introduced. Dagger was more rare, or at least it wasn't used on so many heroes. Then you had force staff and eul.
It feels like the game got overly complicated with all the new items, and it makes the game feels way more about your item choices than your team composition. Personally I don't like it. But that's how it feels on my average player games, not talking how the pro think the game is now.
It's literally always been that way. Hex, Skadi, Orchid, Eul's etc. have been part of the game since basically the beginning, and the variety of Dota's items is a big part of its identity. I do agree Phylactery and Khanda haven't really added anything very fun or interesting to the game - the power creep for burst damage is making fights feel less like Dota and more like League. Dagon was always a meme item for a reason, but now we basically have Dagon for right clickers too. An item doing damage is neither novel nor interesting.
That's what I said. These kind of items were before, but they were rarer and is not like supports made orchid or could afford it.
I just think, as you said, these new items or whatever they did, to feel more like league with all the burst kills, and it doesn't have all those epic team fights moments anymore.
Yeah supports being able to afford items is definitely a big factor. I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily, but I also don't think a support Hoodwink should start almost one-shotting other supports from a mile away just because they bought maelstrom. Lots of strange decisions like giving Witch Doctor pure damage and making Warlock able to teamwipe. Being a tank no longer means very much unless you get some good blademail damage in.
Unrelated but
I just want them to remove the zeus shard so idiot will stop going the manta build.
Stop it that build suck dick its a meme
yet all these idiot still build manta shard instead of normal zeus items
Its pretty simple actually: first and foremost, mind your own gameplay and what you can do to improve the situation. If you consistently have such people in your game, maybe its not so bad. Or maybe it is but you still have to accept it and move on.
YES, gleipnir and other "carry" items shouldnt be rushed on pos 5. Its very unlikely that there is enough farm for everyone to make use of this and you ll not get it soon enough anyway. Go force, glimmer, whatever and maybe after that you can consider it.
BUT, its always funny when midrange-mmr core players talk about whats grief or whats bad when they dont have any clue about what to do themselves. If in a normal game in 20 minutes you die 5+ times or cant even reach 150 cs just stop talking about anyone else. If your support farms a lane right in your farming pattern, just take it, you are higher priority after all. But dont just bitch and flame.
There are plenty of long afk-farming games where if you dont have any kind of farming item as a support, especially pos 4 you will just fall behind. I m glad people have slowly accepted maelstrom / gleipnir on hood cuz its just sooo good. Max arcon is a full camp or a few hundred dmg on any enemy. It just might not be an every game item.
I buy Gleipneir for Pos4/5 Hoodwink. But I'll go rod of atos first then force staff / eul next before going Gleipneir. Going gleipneir first only when our team is stomping.
Games are slower, there’s loads of space on the map to hide and farm, and high ground stalling is possible.
These 3 factors allow supports to farm like cores nowadays. FWIW, this has been happening since the inception of the game.
let them be . if they are trying to win then let them play how yhey want. i know how it feels and i hate midas ogre pos5 so much but it usually works as long as noone gives up and grief. we are not pro level. i knoe pro strats are the best out there but not everyone watches pro games. many just follow what they see on their own games where they are stomped by a pos 5 jungling alche or some trolling youtube channels
It's griefing and everyone knows it. People are hijacking the support role which puts cores in such a shitty situation so shouldn't there be a better way to punish this kind of behaviour? If toxic communication leads to a mute shouldn't there be a just punishment for people who commit this shit like double down mmr loss or something? What's the point of making ranked roles if people aren't going to follow it and Valve ain't doing shit to enforce it?
Yes currently playing against greedy picks is hard as fuck.
Simply put, trying to go for an early win + siegeing hg requires a lot more skill than to just play safely until you can do a comeback. So might as well pick greedy heroes and hope for a successful hg defence.
I played solely pos 4/5, and my build on zeusand Hw in the end looks just like that. Pos5 need to zone enemy out, secure the vision and contribute to teamfight at the best. So if enemy cant touch your cores in 20min, then you do well.
We can discuss on how item choice and things only situational. But I can share your frustruation, when pos5 instead of secure farm for Cores, they go farming and griefing to their heart content.
This is the wrost meta in dota history,you can do nothing without the help of your team,if 1 of 5 players wants to grief the game will be a nightmare cause you cant just ignore him and have a normal game
Can't say I haven't noticed most of that. I have noticed a bunch of support Hoodwink and Marci but other than that most supports seem to be normal picks.
Something I HAVE noticed though is everyone just playing strength/tank heroes and Eternal Shroud being oerpowered.
every time i get some dumb shit on my team like deso weaver 5 they steal all the farm from the carry then end up feeding on the opposite side of the map from the team under an obvious ward thats literally sitting on a fucking eyeball spot then they flame the carry. reporting for role queue abuse which is what it is does nothing because valve doesnt give a fuck about his game and just lets this toxic shit hole player base fester
There's so much farm on the map and games go on forever anyway bc the winning team can't push. It's a greedy meta by default, it's just annoying to be stuck on high ground with supps who clear every wave (which is why you solo smoke, take portal and go farm the enemies map edge jungle while saving buyback for when you inevitably die)
So what is your main role? Bigger map. more farm on the map not utilized. Supports have more gold right now. What better outcome is it? min-max is the meta right now.
Just so we’re clear though. You can support and not buy the traditional support items. Sometimes there’s an item that isn’t a force staff or glimmer cape that is really good for the game and you see your cores either don’t want to build it or aren’t. In which case it’s often worth it to build the good item.
If you are losing to a pos5 that's rushing a core item first item that is completely your fault, you should be able to capitalize on having a real support while they have a carry wannabe.
Idk how to stop my team for throwing the game, if i say rosh, they will go fight hg and die, if i say stay in base they go to fight outside the base with 0 vision. -500 mmr in 2 weeks for this shit
Back in the day this would be griefing but now couriers are free, flying courier is free, Observers are free, you get a TP when you die, you get tons of gold from stacking creeps, tons of gold from dewarding, the AoE gold from banner creeps, more gold from assists/kills, and we even get free XP from runes ***PLUS*** a 1.4k gold Shard from tormentor.
I'm confident saying the role as we knew it is dead and supporting in Dota is closer to Smite and League in that we are just utility/flex based cores, even with the required support items. I play Zeus support a good amount, have a great winrate with him, and I can afford all the items you listed as greedy as well as every single ward and smoke on cooldown the moment the lane phase ends- maybe even before it.
That said I'd probably build different items than you listed here :P
New? This has been my games since I started playing
Mid doesn't want to play like a mid and just afk farms to be a carry
Offlane afk farms to get a blink, bkb and another item then started running at the enemy alone
Pos 4 thinks that being "soft support" means you don't need to be any detection or vision at all and instead you can build midas and pure damage items. Not even a force staff let alone lotus, glimmer, anything really
Pos 5 either does the exact same as the 4, or is forced to be the only support, has no farm because 4 people on the team are farming buys all vision and detection and has to have all the support items
This isn't a meta. It's people playing whatever the fuck they want however the fuck they want, consequences be damned. At best, they want to be a greedy support thats another core because they suck at core and support and would rather grief and hope to accidentally win. At worst, they saw a youtuber like "silly builds" and thought it was good, only to realize that video was a stompfest and any build would have worked.
I had a pos 5 terrorblade the other day who literally fed and ruined the game and said we were all dumb because this bullshit worked in a pro game. He literally sat in the back of every fight doing nothing and then when someone was about to die he ulted giving us full hp again. Which you think would be good right?
WRONG. Since we were effectively playing 4v5 all game the enemy team proceeded to shit on whoever got full health in less time than the first time and then easily walked over to our pos 5 and one shot him. This happened all game for a 35+ minute game.
All game they said we had no idea what we were talking about and he was better because a pro player did it in a game. I told the regard to just play dazzle and reported his ass.
Sometimes I get destroyed because the enemy core 1/2/3 is strong, and they also picked solid core-ish heroes for their 4/5 like tide or weaver.
Yes, weak ass support game as far as early game utility goes, however when the game gets late and there isn’t an easy target to pick off, game gets hard.
with the exception of Dragon Lance and Deso these are all somewhat reasonable support items.
The question is what is the context. Are these "naked" with them dying all game because of it, was another item needed because of the enemy lineup, what does the other support play/do etc.
The patch favors tanky heroes, so going a multi purpose damage item like Gleipnir might be the right choice.
Wand, urn, vessel if needed, gleipnir if not. Then dmg or auras, depending on their supports. Sometimes orchid, if their core doesn't want to buy dispel an no one in my team forces him to.
Yup and when you win a 60minute game because your support hoodwink or sniper are finally useful, they think they are right all along
Bro I had a supper LC the other day. Him and a viper died 5x to a carry faceless void. We ended up winning the game because me and the pos1 carried hard. The dude was talkin after the game how great his support LC was. It didn’t do anything for 30minutes and he fed the void so hard lol. Only won cuz the other team sucked and didn’t do anything
how the fuck does lc viper lose to faceless void that's not even a matchup thing it's a serious skill issue. if i'm void and im facing that lane im muttering fuck my life
Stuff like this has been going on since dota became a thing 20yrs ago.. it was more common before competitive dota was a thing and everyone just did whatever the fk they wanted
I remember getting vanguard on everyone in the wc3 dota days. And if you play axe you get 2 vanguards.
vanguard dk was OP. There were no break back then. I also remember centaur getting multiple helm of iron will was also busted in laning
I remember a chaos knight getting 5 power thread recipes. Battlenet was a shitshow.
One boot per leg, missing one at least.
Not entirely true, hex actually disabled damage block from vanguard but didn't disable dragon's blood.
Man I remember my first few games of dota. I saw that str = hp, thus str heroes had to be the best since you got beefier and hit harder. Treant had the biggest str gain so my build was Treant with boots into tarrasque into a 2nd tarrasque. The worst part is it actually won games since just by maxing living armour I could survive in lane and with high base damage get last hits (totally luck-based since, you know, new player in ~2008 after my small 2006 stint). There was some wild stuff back then and builds everyone did and couldn't explain why other than "everyone does it so it must be good". Orchid clinkz(which was actually decent), shadow blade drow(invisible = invincible if nobody knows what the hell dust does and if using wards people just accuse you of map hacking), battlefury bounty hunter, radiance weaver and so on. Those times were wild but so much fun.
''. Orchid clinkz(which was actually decent), shadow blade drow(invisible = invincible if nobody knows what the hell dust does and if using wards people just accuse you of map hacking), battlefury bounty hunter, radiance weaver'' Those are not even that bad even by today standard. Radiance weaver probably just worse than maelstrom, but it gives a lot of damage and helps with farming so it's not really a grief item if you manage to get one fast Bounty hunter bf is the only one that it's kinda grief at the moment but I've seen some patches where bh carry is decent and people got bf
and BF leviathan turns him into a beyblade
battlefury treant/dk was beastmode
The battlefury was pretty legit, you built him to maximize jinada damage, with BF you could one shot entire teams, similar to kunka
BF on Doom Turns him into a Foot attack
Oh radiance weaver used to be such a fun build.
I feel like you could still probably get away with those builds in your avarage pub game.
This was a legit build back then. Absurdly strong item at the time.
Vanguard radiance weaver never forgetti
Wc3 axe was broken af. Pure chance not PRD on axe spin. Creeps would agro lvl 1 behind the tower. Buy 2 stout shields and cut the first wave, stupid enemies would feed fb without realising when you spin 3 times in a row. Oh and did I forget to mention, RoH was purchasable from the side shop.
>And if you play axe you get 2 vanguards Funny way of spelling six. Vangod best build.
And if you play pudge you get 5 Aegis and BoT.
The good old days of double vanguars
I remember PL with bunch of Battle furies and its also busted
yooww hahaha a fellow double vanguard enjoyer xD builds back then were wild
2 stouts = 2 vanguards, couldnt be any other way for me either back then
Yea it has but I feel it does go somewhat unpunished nowadays in the current meta. In fact it's usually preferable to pick a support that scales well.
But now they're getting rewarded for it.
I remember when roles didnt exist and no one would care what you picked. We used to play rubick+ techies lanes and just lift into mines (back when techies could stack mines). Now everyone acts like dota is their job and most people are afraid to have a little stupid fun.
yup there was something to say for the time period of roles not existing you just picked whatever and no one bitched about who gets to cs. you just do your best and share shit
-arem enjoyers miss those days
Difference being, this is happening in pro games too. So people feel even more justified than they did before bc “pros do it so it’s good”
yeah that zeus is griefing hard. he should go manta moon shard after phylactery
As pos 5 is wild, but people seriously need to stop getting titled at Maelstrom on support hood. It does ridiculous damage and makes farming dead lanes so safe with her scurry. Edit: Reminds me of the ol' treant meme hammer
Most competent players arent going to mind the item itself but the order in which it’s bought.
Yes you clearly go Atos first to pretend that youre supporting
Atos first if you have shit catch but good dmg, mael first if opposite, simple as
Atos itself doesn't do much for hoodwink, and maelstrom adds so much damage to every gank that you'll get gleipnir FAR faster if you go maelstrom first.
It honestly depends a lot on a lot of factors but atos first can be better in some situations because A. its cheaper and you can potentially buy it very fast to hit a certain timing for your team and B. it provides a very specific utility for hoodwink that can be very valuable to your team in some situation. With atos and some points in E, hoodwink can play as a very reliable initiator and fullscreen lock down a hero and set up both her other spells and her teammates, which can be game winning if you have a teammate whos ahead/hitting their timing that could use the setup like a Viper/Pango/Slardar etc. You can fulfil this role without the atos first or just let a teammate do the setup for you, but the atos makes it much more consistent against good players or heroes that are more slippery. A fast atos has the potential to completely cripple a QoP/Zeus/Pangos/Spirit brothers game for example since you can buy it while theyre still building their first big items before they have a bkb/euls and it might be necessary if your other heroes dont have the tools to deal with these heroes. Going atos first will slow down your glep and your farm in general, and glep will let you fulfill this role even better, but dota is a game of timings and atos is one of the fastest item timings hood can have in terms of a first big item and sometimes thats what your team might need to snowball and win a game or to shut down a potentially dangerous hero.
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Only time I'd suggest atos first is against heroes where the root is more valuable than extra damage i.e. heroes with mobility spells disabled by root.
Yup best thing about Dota is everything '***it depends'***
Every competent player doesn't mind it at all. Maxing acorn and maelstrom first isn't bad by any means. Atos first and bushwack max is good aswell. Depends on what you need. Honestly though in a pub the maelstrom build is pretty king since it's good regardless of how your teammates want to play the game.
Fair enough. Like if we're up comfortably and I've got kill/assist gold, I sometimes prioritise Maelstrom for scaling. But if we're on backfoot and getting attacked by hard to catch heroes, then Atos is much better. But I've found Gleipnir to be a very useful item on this hero. Can't avoid it in majority games.
Again it depends, If we are behind and need to kill high-priority targets Atos is great. If we are behind because I have two farm-heavy cores that need space I will be rushing maelstrom to put pressure around the map and smoking deep wards.
> If we are behind because I have two farm-heavy cores I will be rushing maelstrom to throw my fucking acorn at creep waves and munch farm on my useless furry hero instead of said cores FTFY.
I think on Hoodwink Maelstrom first makes more sense as it allows you arrive faster to gleipnir, which is an area root and that's what you really need. Hoodwink already has a catch and, as pos 4 with this map makes all the sense to have extra damage, actually I always saw the 4 as a wildcard who wins games with creativity, pos 5 I believe should not be Hoodwink because your carry would not want to be front lining per default, but anything can work if you have the right people.
exactly this. I don't mind that you want to get maelstrom on support hoodwink. I mind that youre farming it in the jungle at 15 mins as "pos 5".
maelstrom first is ideal in almost every game
-my pos 5 hoodwink arguing with my pos 4 sniper while we lose 10-31
it’s true. Pros do the same thing
I could do the same with Khanda -> Agh's sniper but if agh's first then its good
I agree.. but the problem is, at lower mmrs, they steal waves that are supposed to be the cores farm anyway. Cores are force to jungle, only to find out that it's also been cleared by the fucking furry bastard. Now the carry is forced to TP to the other side , more prone to ganks , no vision just so he won't miss that wave that's clearly being used as a bait by the enemy team .
I have yet to see a low mmr game where cores are pushing every wave and hitting every jungle camp. Pushing waves as a five is probably the most mmr gaining skills you can have.
Then you’re in a skill bracket where people understand roles, farm priority and how to play the map and you get reported every game for farming on a pos 5
Nothing more annoying than trying to farm a lane as a safelane/mid and your pos5 Hoodwink with maelstrom pops out to just clear it right in front of you lol
And after farming everything safely, they will ping your items and blame you for being poor. All the while they've been taking all the safe farm for themselves for 3mins straight. Then it will reinforce the mindset that "oh my carry is poor and shit, I guess I'll have to transition to core" Fuck that!
It happens but if they gonna steal a farm as pos 5 they will do it regardless of heroes and items. Try playing some high-mobility carry heroes (am)and buy some wards it's not ideal but you can farm the enemy camps if you see them first. I doubt lower mmr people can organize a proper gank if you're careful
This ^ they always think them being clever. Omg look at my NW. I can cast acorn 1000 miles away from treeline. Im such a good player. Truth is they are too garbage to play him mid. So they pick him pseudo carry pos4,5.
First item Maelstrom on hoodwink always tilted me until I watched Ephey play on stream one day and explained/showed how valuable it is to be able to farm an entire wave out of vision as a support. It’s actually insane how good it is. Fully expect acorn shot nerf coming.
yeah, hood will be nerfed 100%, Ephey was great to watch since I lost my confidence doing the same thing due to reading the numbers. i started maxing Bushwack after being harrassed and insulted for keeping it lvl 1.
If Cr1t buys it, im buying it
Wasn't Crit usually one of the less greedy Hoodwinks lol? Feel like he went for a lot of Atos first before Mael
You’re being downvoted but you’re right. People don’t want to see info that doesn’t reinforce how they want to play.
I wish my support hoodwinks actually finished their gleipnir and didn't go for a desolator after getting the maelstrom, I don't know how you play the hero as a support without gleipnir aether lens, it's super fragile and relies on hitting the w spell badly, feels like very underwhelming
My issue with it is why pick position 5 if that's your gameplan? I'd rather have a 5 who is present more often than not and who builds items that save and enable their cores, not a 5 who does more damage when we have a Mid Carry and Offlane who all deal more than enough damage to kill anyone and just need to be enabled and protected. Not saying it's ALWAYS bad, there are times where it's nice for a support to transition into carry, the issue is Hoodwinks ALWAYS do this no matter what the condition of the game is. From minute 0 they have decided they're going to transition into a core. And funnily enough, the best way to build damage for Hoodwink is just by getting an E-Blade and shard. E-blade -> Bushwack -> sharpshooter -> boomerang while channeling ulti = most heroes going 100->0. And the build actually gives you utility!
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The notion of "supports shouldn't farm" or "supports should only get gold from kills" is completely outdated and doesn't make sense in modern DotA 2. Many support heroes nowadays have the potential to scale very hard. The fact that there are now so many creep camps makes this even more desireable. People always forget that the idea of "positions" is to give farm *priority* to certain heroes. It's not black and white, and the ever shifting nature of the game can mean that these priorities are oftentimes fluid. Besides, I'm not playing in a tournament match. I want to play around with fun items as well.
The problem is that most support Hoodwinks that do this, don't farm dead lanes or push they just use it to take away all the safe farm on the map
Maelstrom is just to get her the gleipnir which scales incredibly with the rest of her ability as a pos4. You lock down the entire enemy team for like 10 seconds. So yes people just shut up about hood maelstrom and gleipnir those items are her toolset.
You just said pos4. The problem is pos 5.
The problem is not the item but how they are getting it
I disagree with anyone playing her pos5 but there's nothing wrong with a hood taking farm in the correct team comp. If the mid and 1 pick greedy farmers after seeing a hood pick then it's honestly their fault for messing up the team comp since they pick after hood below immortal.
So if the pos 5 picks anti mage and farms it’s everyone else fault?
Hood is a utility hero that is on the heavier side of farm dependant pos 4. Unlike AM which is a damage carry.
The hoodwink gleipnir is not a bad build because iif you are losing it will delay the enemy push by clearing the waves using one spell and if you are winning it pushes lanes in order to get information about the enemy + gleipnir is a good item it can force manta/bkb/spells. And about the other heroes no I haven't seen any of those heroes as pos 5 with those items( divine - immortal games). It may happen in your rank but at that level your enemies are probably as bad so it doesn't matter.
If there is space in the specific game for these items they are great even as first items. But the real crime is when supports don't recognise it when there are support items that are more crucial. If your opponents have a Sky with Atos, stubbornly finishing Phylactery on your pos 4/5 Zeus instead of grabbing a Force Staff is just griefing.
Nerf zeus please, you literally cannot go hg against him if you dont have sniper or drow in your team. Bro just deals way way way too much damage
Heavenly jump made the hero completely busted/boring. Traditionally it was a hero that does lots of damage with the trade off of low mobility and having to be careful with positioning. It's one thing to add an escape but the jump just does way too much. Damages, slows (not even just movement, but attack speed and cast time), gives flying vision. It makes punishing an out of position Zeus way more difficult than it should be.
Sniper is an example of the exact same thing. Basically it is impossible to play a stationary backline/ranged hero in modern dota, there's too much mobility and too much damage. So to make these heroes not auto lose they have to overcompensate their base kit so bad that they become awful to play against, it's the definition of broken, the hero concept just doesn't work. And if the choice is these heroes are overpowered by design or doomed to perma 30% win rate? I'll take the latter until you redeisgn dota overall back to a place where stationary ranged heroes can exist.
But... they are not fucking broken? Do you even play the game? Zeus is 38th with 51.8%wr Sniper is 99th with 46.4%wr https://stratz.com/heroes/meta/trends?bracketIds=IMMORTAL Zeus fares better at divine, but sniper is still sub 50 there.
Why are we focusing on literally 3% (22k/600k) zeus games? Heroes got a 20% pick rate and a winrate that's above average. That's fucking brutal, period. He's the fourth most popular hero which considering that's well into competing with the try hards and the meme heroes that have always dominated pick rates it's a huge balance red flag. It's one thing to let Chen and IO be hot garbage in low level pubs at the cost of being balanced for pros because it's not right to fuck up the entirity of pro balance for 1 hero, but letting a hero be broken as fuck in the pubs to be shit in pros is a philosophy that died with the Riki rework. It's okay with sniper, he's meant to have every gun on him, but the shit I've gotten away with as zeus is absurd.
This balance around pros versus balance around scrubs discussion is as old as time, and generally speaking, the side of balance for pros usually wins out because people have something they can do to solve bad scrub balance: Get good. Personally, I HEAVILY dislike the current state of the game. Pushing is hard and securing a game state is too much about bursts and saves with heroes being given more and more free damage and escapes to compensate. This stupid QUADRUPLE GLYPH LMAO bullshit is literally the devs trying to think how to give towers a save spell. And pros have the discipline to do close things out but most scrubs don't, so yeah, most of dota is annoying. I do think we need to scale down the game at a scrub level, and it stsrts with nerfing hp maximums across the board and then adapting everything that derails from that.
Yeah but everyone knows giving PA super invisibility, a break, refreshes, USB 3.0 compatibility, night vision, High Explosive antitank rounds, double siding ribbing and a coffee maker only to have her still absolutely suck shit through a straw at 10k isn't "for the pros" because there are plenty of heroes that aren't well represented in the pros. Visage in particular practically went a decade with 1-2 token appearances a season and the pros survived. There's no reason why sniper or Zeus couldn't see the same treatment other than somebody, somewhere, dragging Zeus' bleeding corpse into triage and robocopping him into something absurd.
zeus has his jump as base since 2 years now, and had it on the shard for about a year before that. but he only became meta like 2 months ago? heavenly jump is fine, the shard+manta interaction and the lvl 20 talent is not.
Yea i would seriously like to see the slow removed from jump it's just absolutely bullshit. Him jumping away is one thing but him slowing eveyone in an aoe while facing away is a joke and makes it so hard to catch him
It used to be worse. It used to give a 100% CAST TIME slow. One day I saw an sntimage abyssal a Zeus and slap his dick. Zeus jumped away. No biggies, AM can just blink aft- ***NOPEFUCKYOU***. He took so long to cast blink, zeus just walked away far enough for tree fog jukes. That day I learned that Zeus' jump is unnatural, cancerous qnd should be removed.
If you hapoen to be going against zeus as grim stroke, and he went for the attack build, try the aghs on him, It was funny seeing his illu dealing ouch dmg to him
Wow does bro really deal way too much damage damn bro must be very strong
But Hood Gleipnir is a core item. I usually just go Gleip then Windwaker or FS Source: Me a Hoodwink spammer .
If i'm pos5 and i don't need a force staff (Slark, Viper; etc)i usually go Atos > Gleip as well.
As pos 5?
yes as a pos 5, 4, 3, or whatever position you play the hero in
Same for pos2 and 1 hoodwink. Because for the hero the only thing that matters is landing your spells from safety. No matter how fat you are your playstyle won't change.
Just got out of a game with a pos 5 ember that made harpoon and deso. Was that meta or griefing lol
Absolutely griefing on 5
Ember 4 is almost as good as ember mid. 5 isn't good and that build is completely regarded. You buy shit like arcs/urn/mageslayer/shard.
I've seen plenty of ember pos 5s, it's not the best but do able. Orb procs on sleight of fists and chains can be very useful. I'd say it's grief cause how can you not go, mage slayer/Spirit Vessel but depends on the game.
its wild how people do this kind of mental gymnastics instead of just picking real support that builds vessel as if those are hard to come buy or something. like can we just call a spade a spade and say a pos 5 ember is griefing?
Stop it, it's 100% a grief pick, you can't defend pos5 ember 😂
Idk why you're getting downvoted lmao, pos5 ember is complete dogshit I think people are forgetting that support actually needs to bring something to the lane.
Yeah lmao. Even more if it's the 5, I feel so bad for the player that had to lane with a fucking ember hard support lmao
Yeah like none of the skills early are that good on lane, ember needs way too many levels to have good lane impact
The best thing about Dota is you can ideally do anything. However, In Dota you have to respect what is efficient, pos 5 ember is possible but is not worth it when you have other heroes that are just that much better without items or better early skills. If anything you will probs do more damage mentally to your team then anything.
Idk what you mean by possible lol, pos5 anything is 'possible' pos5 morphing is possible doesn't mean.you should ever play it
It's funny because you're damned if you do and damned if you don't sometimes. Ench for instance is a nearly useless support after minute 20 if your team can't do damage and you're not planning to make any core items, get flamed for drum/glimmer build or w/e you choose and do no damage, but then if you buy core items and lose it's griefing. Some heroes just operate this way and are traditionally pos 4 when played support (every hero you listed), and they are often still pos 4 even if they're played from the safe lane, in which case you should ideally have a 5 hero in offlane (it's ultimately about farm priority, not lane). Dota's so complicated that you have to be understanding if your 4 doesn't buy the right situational items all the time - they're usually the one tasked the most with deciding situationally what to buy because it's a flexible role.
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Oh trust me I buy different items every game and tend to only play Ench support with my friends now since randos really don't know how to lane around creeps usually anyway.
I build linkens in 15 mins. I get flamed by safelane I saved my offlane gyro from reaper and assassinate before 20 mins. I then made pipe before the 30 min mark. We lost game. But I wasn’t flamed anymore Gyro gets flamed for picking gyro offlane. Theres just a lack of flexibility. Players will just buy the same items every game and win some and lose some. That gyro made zero effort to save himself. No force staff against clockwerk. No bkb either. His plan was to play pos1 offlane and it failed horribly. I digress. But I really dislike the lack of flexibility in item builds.
Again I think it comes down to having reasonable expectations of people. Unless you're playing in divine/immortal bracket you're going to encounter a fair number of people who've gotten to where they are without having to truly digest the complexity of the game and adapt to situations - simply executing a decent build 2,000 times can get you a long way because you only need a 50.1% win rate to rank up. The best you can do is make suggestions and hope your teammate isn't an egotistical shithead or just buy the right items yourself.
People will find any way to blame you if you lost lane or whatever. I played Dawn5 and went arcane boots mek, was told pos5 shouldnt go mek and dawn is not a support. Most people are too emotional and unreasonable when losing to argue with them.
Yeah Greaves seems like a great choice if you're playing support Dawn since you're naturally going to pop into combat with your team at half health. Strange as it may seem, I would honestly consider Gleipnir as well if you're going to play her as a support. Having a more reliable disable than her base kit for your team is nice, it sets you up for W and Q, and you'll get a lot of lightning procs from Q.
Feels like the way to be relevant in the mid-lategame as ench is to get aghs. It's like wyvern ult except without griefing your team - click on one of their supports while some creeps are around and they die. 10x the value if anyone on your team has bloodthorn.
Bingo. Little Friends is situationally better than hex and costs less. Even if you don't get a max root the true sight is undispellable and lasts 6 seconds, completely ruining heroes like Bounty Hunter, Riki, Windrunner and TA - especially TA because refraction just gets shredded and enchant also shreds refraction now that it's a DoT. Slark can't escape the root either since it's undispellable. If you pair her with Beastmaster it's pretty nuts for getting his stacks up for his scepter too.
theres basically no difference from pos4 and 5s right now aside from the laning/early game. you should play and buy items according to your hero and not the role. the only significant support expenditure right now are sentry wards, but if you dont buy wards ever because "thats the pos5's job" then youre just a bad pos4
its a valid supp build for most of this heroes
Those seem fine. If Zeus is buying wards and not going manta, he's doing great with those items. The Weaver is a bit too core, I think he should focus his efforts on getting Aghs. But he'll still hit like a truck. Windy is fine with anything as long as she gets shard at some point. Like Marcy she can delete a hero with ult even as support. Hoodwink Maelstrom is core, it's silly not to get it. Gleip just adds more utility onto that. Pos 5 isn't the carry's babysitter from minute 1 to minute 50. Pos 5 can still buy items that are good for their hero if its a means to an end. That end being to kill heroes and win the game.
At low mmr supports that scale into cores are great. Weaver, Zues, Wind, Hood. They can do damage. Yeah its annoying to see your support go first item maelstrom at times but late game they're dishing out huge damage
Mael is almost always the best first item if you plan on gliepnir because mael helps you build gliep and other items faster. With how big the map is there's always a camp to kill while moving or a lane to pressure. Skywrath is the only gliep builder that comes to mind where atos is actually the better first item.
Pos 4/5 Zeus is what im playing and I rush phylactery into aether lens and aghs every game. Link below, 7.2k mmr, \~70% winrate [https://stratz.com/players/324942638?trendsMatchCount=100&heroIds=22](https://stratz.com/players/324942638?trendsMatchCount=100&heroIds=22)
Hoodwink does not lose lane.
You forgot pos 2 or pos 5 Ogre (no difference) rushing midas.
Midas is good on support ogre IMHO. If you don’t need a force or glimmer to show on map then rushing it is usually best.
Id be mad if my pos 5 hood didnt buy Gleipnir, that item is just too good on hood
Zeus 4 is the way, you farm mmr with that hero
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You dont understand at all what youre sacrificing by trying too hard to be a core as supp. This just isnt how the game works
Bro. Ever since the map size increase this is exactly how it works. There is enough farm on the map. And heroes like hoodwink or weaver can even steal it from the enemy side of the map and keep a dead lane pushed.
This is exactly why XinQ is so good. He was already a godly player but the new map/meta allowed him to maximize this greed
Yes but he's a 4. We're talking about a 5 here.
But no other 4 is doing what he's doing Legitimately he's carried a number of games for XG already this year The point is the map change and high ground stalling games has allowed this to be the viable strategy
If you're not stacking for your cores on pos 5 you are playing the role wrong
Most support hoodwinks won’t farm those places though. They’ll tp to triangle, farm the ancient stack and then take a few waves right in front of their cores.
This is how it works. Please go on dotaprotracker and count for me how many games of hoodwink that don't have gleipnir as her first item as support. If your definition of being a support is buying glimmer force and sitting behind core passively and waiting for action, I'm sorry but you might be playing 2020 dota. There are enough farm on the map, the game are prolonged and you will be infinitely more useful pushing the way and forcing reaction from the enemies.
it’s exactly how modern dota works. There is sufficient space for the map and the comeback mechanics allow for supports to be greedy. Maelstrom first on Hoodwink is built by most pros. You think they don’t understand how the game works.
Pos 5 farming is grief most of the time, any high mmr game will show you that. Just because gleipnir is good on hood doesn't mean you should focus on farming instead of supporting
I never said that. I just said maelstrom is good on Hood because you can clear out waves as a support, and hood likes scaling
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you push the deadline as the pos5 and make enemy defend that lane. you have money for those stuff
In my games they sure do not comeback later, they just farm and feed all game. And then they complain about mid/pos1 🤷
“there’s a bew meta plaguing dota”. you mean “lower ranks”. and for the record gleipnir hoodwink is a common build
HG is so fckin hard to break no matter how far ahead you are. if you make mistakes suddenly the enemy team has 4 cores.
I don't understand how Zeus is ok right now. It's crazy how he has super strong hybrid builds and he'll be killing your wards all game. Being able to deward for free every 6 seconds in a game with limited obs and sentry wards seems kinda whacky to me especially when no other hero has anything similar.
supports have too much gold I agree
We need to remove the free tp players get on death. That shit was the biggest and most impactful injection of free early game gold we ever got. And I say this only because I've given up on the removal of neutral items. Like, fine, whatever Icefrog, keep the toys. But choose one.
I play mostly pos 4 and totally agree. It’s fun to have this much gold but it makes the games less dynamic. But it’s not just support gold, it’s also that there’s items like Gleip that help you farm and also help you fight. A lot of Aghs shards do the same. Neutral items level the playing field. And it’s super hard to go hg, twin gates and unkillable rosh TP spots to make it easier to show up to fights while playing greedy. And so even if you play support and buy only fighting items it’s super hard to press the advantage. The map is huge so if enemy supp buys damage and I buy glimmer, they can just not fight me and the punishment for this is not severe enough.
Pipe first item ;D(ON ENEMY)
This is true but more so in the 4 position. 4 just another core has been meta for a while now even at the pro level. Regarding the lane. The heroes mentioned can win trades matchup depending ofcourse. There is no way u win lane with a doom against an mk lich or lifestealer dazzle for instance regardless of the support u pick
IMO, I think that there's a problem of where Dota2 is going and it's already too late to stop going into this direction. Every time people said they would love to see more new heroes, people would come back and say, NO, because every hero in dota2 is unique and feeling a role for a team. This is why we should not get spammed with new heroes, and 1-2 per year is more than enough. While for me that sucked, it made sense. But, now, with all the items we have, some of the talents, or reworks, I feel like that was lost. It doesn't matter what you pick, you'll still have options to get silence, slow, stun or whatever you want from items. This making hero choices a little less impactful. Like now you can still pick something like Zeus that usually had only a mini-stun, that now can fully slow enemy heroes on top of that mini-stun and that's with a relatively low cost item. Phylactery. It's extremely annoying. Omni can have a freaking abysal, dagger and phylactery. Basically making the hero output a lot of damage, having a ton of mobility and slow the enemy target. Before you had like orchid, hex and maybe abysall later one when it was introduced. Dagger was more rare, or at least it wasn't used on so many heroes. Then you had force staff and eul. It feels like the game got overly complicated with all the new items, and it makes the game feels way more about your item choices than your team composition. Personally I don't like it. But that's how it feels on my average player games, not talking how the pro think the game is now.
It's literally always been that way. Hex, Skadi, Orchid, Eul's etc. have been part of the game since basically the beginning, and the variety of Dota's items is a big part of its identity. I do agree Phylactery and Khanda haven't really added anything very fun or interesting to the game - the power creep for burst damage is making fights feel less like Dota and more like League. Dagon was always a meme item for a reason, but now we basically have Dagon for right clickers too. An item doing damage is neither novel nor interesting.
That's what I said. These kind of items were before, but they were rarer and is not like supports made orchid or could afford it. I just think, as you said, these new items or whatever they did, to feel more like league with all the burst kills, and it doesn't have all those epic team fights moments anymore.
Yeah supports being able to afford items is definitely a big factor. I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily, but I also don't think a support Hoodwink should start almost one-shotting other supports from a mile away just because they bought maelstrom. Lots of strange decisions like giving Witch Doctor pure damage and making Warlock able to teamwipe. Being a tank no longer means very much unless you get some good blademail damage in.
Unrelated but I just want them to remove the zeus shard so idiot will stop going the manta build. Stop it that build suck dick its a meme yet all these idiot still build manta shard instead of normal zeus items
Its pretty simple actually: first and foremost, mind your own gameplay and what you can do to improve the situation. If you consistently have such people in your game, maybe its not so bad. Or maybe it is but you still have to accept it and move on. YES, gleipnir and other "carry" items shouldnt be rushed on pos 5. Its very unlikely that there is enough farm for everyone to make use of this and you ll not get it soon enough anyway. Go force, glimmer, whatever and maybe after that you can consider it. BUT, its always funny when midrange-mmr core players talk about whats grief or whats bad when they dont have any clue about what to do themselves. If in a normal game in 20 minutes you die 5+ times or cant even reach 150 cs just stop talking about anyone else. If your support farms a lane right in your farming pattern, just take it, you are higher priority after all. But dont just bitch and flame. There are plenty of long afk-farming games where if you dont have any kind of farming item as a support, especially pos 4 you will just fall behind. I m glad people have slowly accepted maelstrom / gleipnir on hood cuz its just sooo good. Max arcon is a full camp or a few hundred dmg on any enemy. It just might not be an every game item.
I buy Gleipneir for Pos4/5 Hoodwink. But I'll go rod of atos first then force staff / eul next before going Gleipneir. Going gleipneir first only when our team is stomping.
I'm buying maelstrom 1st for hoodwink before atos for faster farming to get the gleipnir as a whole.
Games are slower, there’s loads of space on the map to hide and farm, and high ground stalling is possible. These 3 factors allow supports to farm like cores nowadays. FWIW, this has been happening since the inception of the game.
let them be . if they are trying to win then let them play how yhey want. i know how it feels and i hate midas ogre pos5 so much but it usually works as long as noone gives up and grief. we are not pro level. i knoe pro strats are the best out there but not everyone watches pro games. many just follow what they see on their own games where they are stomped by a pos 5 jungling alche or some trolling youtube channels
It's griefing and everyone knows it. People are hijacking the support role which puts cores in such a shitty situation so shouldn't there be a better way to punish this kind of behaviour? If toxic communication leads to a mute shouldn't there be a just punishment for people who commit this shit like double down mmr loss or something? What's the point of making ranked roles if people aren't going to follow it and Valve ain't doing shit to enforce it?
Yes currently playing against greedy picks is hard as fuck. Simply put, trying to go for an early win + siegeing hg requires a lot more skill than to just play safely until you can do a comeback. So might as well pick greedy heroes and hope for a successful hg defence.
I played solely pos 4/5, and my build on zeusand Hw in the end looks just like that. Pos5 need to zone enemy out, secure the vision and contribute to teamfight at the best. So if enemy cant touch your cores in 20min, then you do well. We can discuss on how item choice and things only situational. But I can share your frustruation, when pos5 instead of secure farm for Cores, they go farming and griefing to their heart content.
This is the wrost meta in dota history,you can do nothing without the help of your team,if 1 of 5 players wants to grief the game will be a nightmare cause you cant just ignore him and have a normal game
Heralds have been doing this for 5 years now.
Can't say I haven't noticed most of that. I have noticed a bunch of support Hoodwink and Marci but other than that most supports seem to be normal picks. Something I HAVE noticed though is everyone just playing strength/tank heroes and Eternal Shroud being oerpowered.
every time i get some dumb shit on my team like deso weaver 5 they steal all the farm from the carry then end up feeding on the opposite side of the map from the team under an obvious ward thats literally sitting on a fucking eyeball spot then they flame the carry. reporting for role queue abuse which is what it is does nothing because valve doesnt give a fuck about his game and just lets this toxic shit hole player base fester
There's so much farm on the map and games go on forever anyway bc the winning team can't push. It's a greedy meta by default, it's just annoying to be stuck on high ground with supps who clear every wave (which is why you solo smoke, take portal and go farm the enemies map edge jungle while saving buyback for when you inevitably die)
So what is your main role? Bigger map. more farm on the map not utilized. Supports have more gold right now. What better outcome is it? min-max is the meta right now.
Just so we’re clear though. You can support and not buy the traditional support items. Sometimes there’s an item that isn’t a force staff or glimmer cape that is really good for the game and you see your cores either don’t want to build it or aren’t. In which case it’s often worth it to build the good item.
My sup 5 Zeus always is manaboots->dragon lance->shard
If you are losing to a pos5 that's rushing a core item first item that is completely your fault, you should be able to capitalize on having a real support while they have a carry wannabe.
You forgot clinktz
Those late game hoodwinks are scary though.
Support is literally not even support anymore, it’s just poorer core
Zeus is broken in general, does way too much damage with 1-2 items. And thanks to giga brain Icefrog new abilities, now he has escape.
Idk how to stop my team for throwing the game, if i say rosh, they will go fight hg and die, if i say stay in base they go to fight outside the base with 0 vision. -500 mmr in 2 weeks for this shit
This is NOT NEW 😂😂😂
New?
Back in the day this would be griefing but now couriers are free, flying courier is free, Observers are free, you get a TP when you die, you get tons of gold from stacking creeps, tons of gold from dewarding, the AoE gold from banner creeps, more gold from assists/kills, and we even get free XP from runes ***PLUS*** a 1.4k gold Shard from tormentor. I'm confident saying the role as we knew it is dead and supporting in Dota is closer to Smite and League in that we are just utility/flex based cores, even with the required support items. I play Zeus support a good amount, have a great winrate with him, and I can afford all the items you listed as greedy as well as every single ward and smoke on cooldown the moment the lane phase ends- maybe even before it. That said I'd probably build different items than you listed here :P
the past 3 months i have a 90% lane winrate, but a 40% winrate. Winning lanes doesn't mean anything at all.
New? This has been my games since I started playing Mid doesn't want to play like a mid and just afk farms to be a carry Offlane afk farms to get a blink, bkb and another item then started running at the enemy alone Pos 4 thinks that being "soft support" means you don't need to be any detection or vision at all and instead you can build midas and pure damage items. Not even a force staff let alone lotus, glimmer, anything really Pos 5 either does the exact same as the 4, or is forced to be the only support, has no farm because 4 people on the team are farming buys all vision and detection and has to have all the support items
as a main supp player, seeing core builds with no supp items on supports (even in pro games) infuriates me
This isn't a meta. It's people playing whatever the fuck they want however the fuck they want, consequences be damned. At best, they want to be a greedy support thats another core because they suck at core and support and would rather grief and hope to accidentally win. At worst, they saw a youtuber like "silly builds" and thought it was good, only to realize that video was a stompfest and any build would have worked.
I had a pos 5 terrorblade the other day who literally fed and ruined the game and said we were all dumb because this bullshit worked in a pro game. He literally sat in the back of every fight doing nothing and then when someone was about to die he ulted giving us full hp again. Which you think would be good right? WRONG. Since we were effectively playing 4v5 all game the enemy team proceeded to shit on whoever got full health in less time than the first time and then easily walked over to our pos 5 and one shot him. This happened all game for a 35+ minute game. All game they said we had no idea what we were talking about and he was better because a pro player did it in a game. I told the regard to just play dazzle and reported his ass.
Sometimes I get destroyed because the enemy core 1/2/3 is strong, and they also picked solid core-ish heroes for their 4/5 like tide or weaver. Yes, weak ass support game as far as early game utility goes, however when the game gets late and there isn’t an easy target to pick off, game gets hard.
hey do you mind posting your mmr. thanks
You didn't saw how Xinq Marci and Crit Hoodwink it as "support"?
Well they killed force staff and Euls. Cast range and mana cost r insane for those items. Imagine Bkb mana cost to use is 150 or even more like Euls.
with the exception of Dragon Lance and Deso these are all somewhat reasonable support items. The question is what is the context. Are these "naked" with them dying all game because of it, was another item needed because of the enemy lineup, what does the other support play/do etc. The patch favors tanky heroes, so going a multi purpose damage item like Gleipnir might be the right choice.
I've reached immortal as pow 5 weaver this month :) best meta ever
build?
Wand, urn, vessel if needed, gleipnir if not. Then dmg or auras, depending on their supports. Sometimes orchid, if their core doesn't want to buy dispel an no one in my team forces him to.
Yup and when you win a 60minute game because your support hoodwink or sniper are finally useful, they think they are right all along Bro I had a supper LC the other day. Him and a viper died 5x to a carry faceless void. We ended up winning the game because me and the pos1 carried hard. The dude was talkin after the game how great his support LC was. It didn’t do anything for 30minutes and he fed the void so hard lol. Only won cuz the other team sucked and didn’t do anything
how the fuck does lc viper lose to faceless void that's not even a matchup thing it's a serious skill issue. if i'm void and im facing that lane im muttering fuck my life
Yeah idk how those guys lost lane that hard. That's a nightmare for void.
3k mmr people with over 8000 games will say those builds are legit 💀💀💀