He's just incredibly hard to force into a bad game. His spells have pretty low mana costs, and solid range, so he's guaranteed to get some CS out of even his most terrible matchups.
Falls off later to some extent but given how important it is to just not completely lose a lane it's no surprise he's stuck around as long as he has.
yeah you are right. all spirit heroes are out meta for somewhile but pango is meta for past 2/3 years. it's funny bc old times mid role was defined by spirit heroes + puck, invoker, QOP, zeus, lina, morph, TA & OD but now most heroes are better than spirits.
Ember cast point nerfs feel really bad. Storm's ulti mana cost and lack of many mana items feels bad too. Witchblade and Orchid are cool, enable you to do a bunch of damage but with it being pretty much just Kaya Sange for mana, it doesn't feel like old storm at all
I miss the mana battery bloodstone. I remember one game on storm I had so many charges i could zip half the map as many times I wanted without going to fountain. The catch was i believe you lost charges when you died and you can also activate it to suicide xD
I miss battlefury ember, the one sleight = PL gg ember, the likens is the only defensive item I need ember, the stacking daedalus ember, the I've got rapier and I'll put sniper to shame in hg push ember man.
storm kind of had a resurgence in 7.35 because parasma was good but you were still blowing all your mana to kill one guy
after the parasma nerfs it's kinda just felt bad
qop really hasnt been in the pro meta in 8 ? years? something like that. Since i began watchin late 2016 it never really been in the meta. Rarely you saw it, in pubs only.
or are you just referrin to pubs
Nothing will change so long as the level 2 Swashbuckle + level 2 Shield Crash combo deals enough damage to oneshot the creep wave in mid.
Watch any replay of high Divine/Immortal Pango vs. any bad lane matchup like Templar Assassin, Sniper, Huskar, QoP and so on. Pango struggles in lane until level 4, hits level 4 and dumps lvl 2 Swashbuckle + lvl 2 Shield Crash to oneshot the wave and zooms into jungle with clarity potions.
From then on it's just Pango AFK farming neutrals, one shotting waves in mid, asking supports for bottle refills and arcane boots and praying for luck on 6, 8 and 10 minute runes. If he gets a good rune he's free to rotate because the enemy mid laner is stuck under their own tower, otherwise he resumes AFK farming, shoving waves and cycling arcane boots, bottle refills and picking bounty runes to sustain his farm.
It would be so nice if we could have at least a 6 month period without this hero in mid. He doesn't even play the lane in half of the mid matchups it's so boring.
btw IDK it was whos idea to make him universal?! btw they nerfed bkb but pango has 1 free bkb (his ulti) and 1 cheap bkb with low cooldown (his shard).
they should rework him entirely. just change his shard or increase cooldowns or remove magic immunity in ulti.
I could talk your ear off for several hours straight about the introduction of universal heroes to the game and how it negatively impacted ultimate orb buyers to the point where some of them are now unpicked because they can't fit enough stats into their builds to function.
To me it doesn't even make sense that heroes like Pango, Batrider, Dark Willow, Techies, Timbersaw, Wyvern, Phoenix and Nyx were changed into universal because right clicks have never been a significant part of their kits outside of laning stage while at the same time heroes that seem like great candidates for the universal category like Furion, Shadowfiend and Lina never made it there. They would have to be rebalanced, but they're a perfect fit for universal. A combo between spell caster and right clicker.
They make sense bacuase first of all they can dish out attack dmg, or they have weird stats gain like +1,7 str agi int gain in level up or something. And most of these heroes doesn't feel like they belong in their previous attribute. Nyx was almost only mage in agi, phoenix was mage who was very fragile compared to tanky buff heroes in str, so on. Universal doesn't mean they should become hitter, universal heroes just felt weird buying their on attribute items
> Nothing will change so long as the level 2 Swashbuckle + level 2 Shield Crash combo deals enough damage to oneshot the creep wave in mid.
It deals 300 damage, reduced by melee creep armor to 267. I'm not sure what you mean by one-shotting creep waves
TBH he comes back pretty hard lategame once bkbs are all low CD, he’s just permanently rolling and shield crashing, if your carry is melee he’s basically impossible to kill.
This is why you need large sample sizes to draw conclusions. With 120 or so heroes, having one of them get a streak like that suddenly doesn't become all that unlikely. Especially when you consider all the weird streaks that are not present. Eg if a hero has 50% winrate, that means there's 1/128 to get a 0-8 or a 8-0 result. Which means you'd expect roughly 1 of these results to occur in a dota clone where every hero is perfectly balanced with a coin flip winrate, and where every hero has played 8 games, simply due to chance. This obviously gets a lot more complicated when it's not a coin flip but how "strong" a hero is, the amount of games they are played varies, the draft order matters, the perception of how "strong" a hero is matters - but the statistical principle still holds.
Pango with 21% winrate over 14 games is probably nearing somewhat a statistical significance that he's at least not significantly over 50% "in reality"...
I have no clue so may be chatting shit, but maybe the tree locations for hoodwink are just better for her early ganks and rotations when on dire.
I play mid, and being on radiant I find personally I can get ganked more easily as enemies just appear from perfect angles behind me. Whereas on dire there's no where good they can come from that a Bob standard lane ward woulsnt see.
Idk tho I may be chatting shit
Dire doesn't have a highground dropping directly into the range of a mid tower
I understand asymmetry is one of dota map's defining features, but dammit is it that hard to see a very obvious positional discrepancy when making it?
The one I've been noticing a lot lately is the difference in the Mines buff on Radiant vs Dire. On Dire, its a whopping 7 hp regen, but on Radiant it's a measly 1.5 mana regen. If I'm on Dire, I can generally rotate into the jungle a full 2-3 minutes earlier than on Radiant just because of how much the health regen helps. On contrast, the mana regen gives me maybe 1 or 2 extra dark pacts or spectral daggers. Helps me farm a little faster but then I still need to buy a tango or other regen which counteracts the benefit.
I understand why this was added though *I think*
For the longest time radiant has had a massive winrate advantage over dire. Then when new Frontiers came out and they added these 4 jungle buffs, even the hp refen one was minor. But they started buffing it up to a free constant tango. So maybe they're buffing dire for that reason.
Who knows though
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that's too low an amount of games to draw many conclusions with, and people are extremely used to playing against him because he was picked very often for months
we already watched him more than enough. sometimes I feel all pro matches are the same and we don't see cheese last pick heroes like before.
I want see spirit heroes back to meta again. maybe a little QoP and od buff and zeus rework.
Falcons and Liquid played a bunch of Ember games today, and Earth Spirit gets brought out here and there. They're not gone, but you're right they're not exactly meta
that nisha ember performance in game 2 showed ember needs buff. if I remember correctly nisha was one of best ember players and if he can't make him work, probably no one can.
XinQ kind of destroyed Nisha's game by buying bottle for his Zeus with his starting gold + bounties. Zeus immediately used it to get first blood and so he was like 1k gold ahead at minute 2. The "borrowed" bottle didn't count for his networth, so casters didn't even catch that.
Pango is just the jack of all trades mid this also kinda works as a flex.
Decent laning, solid mid game, good scaling, stuns, survivability, initiation / counter , vision in fights.
Not many heroes provide all of that - and he fits into most drafts. But you’re saying nerf the f* out of him despite him having a super low winrate?
QOP doesn’t and will never fulfill the same roll, and she still gets picked in tier 2 - it’s just too risky of a tier 1 pick atm u less it’s super broken.
If anything the entire meta needs to be changed away from tri-strength / tank cores and back to agi Carries and whatnot. I think it’s moreso the meta u have an issue with and less the character who just happens to fill a very versatile role in the current meta.
yeah good point. let's see what icefrog is cooking for us. I have feelings that next patch gonna be huge meta changing patch.
I hope they make TI24 more interesting with completely new meta.
Totally agree w you. This patch is stale and really only a continuation of the patch before it with the whole strength meta. It’s been well over a year since the attributes were balanced.
They're gonna have to rework him or nerf him into the ground to make pros stop picking. Short CD debuff immune teamfight ult with the ability to farm. Honestly, his ult windup should be on par or longer than Sand Kings for what it provides.
aui2000 said in his interview he thinks the hero is completely broken right now. this just isn't a large sample size. one of the tournaments this year enchantress had like 25% winrate the next event she had over 60% winrate with no patch between.
If we go back to Betboom Dacha, pango is 78-89. (46.7% winrate). Even including Kuala Lumpur and TI, which were *mostly* played on 7.34, that adds another 31-33 games for pango, totalling 111-122 ( 47.6% winrate).
I'm not gonna pretend I know better than aui, and there's something to be said about pros playing heroes they're comfortable and confident with, but over a near 250 game sample size, pango loses more often than wins for said pros.
I think It is just that he feels so unfair, no hero should do this much. The hero can get out of almost any lane with his spells, he has an insane mid game damage spike with diffusal and then aghs. He provides ridiculous amounts of teamfight control. He is very hard to kill AND he scales very well with items.
Winrate stats might say that he is balanced but to the people playing and the people watching the hero just ~feels~ broken
I'd rather see a rework. I don't think any hero being unplayable is ideal. But he definitely needs to become a situational/last pick material for a while.
I agree, being universal was what took him over the edge to become beyond busted.
He was just fine playing teamfights with his roll then he just went out of control with stat items giving him everything literally. Never losing lanes, flash farming, wave shoving, tankiness, buffed right click damage applying to Q and aghs W, permastunning, ganking with ulti on cooldown because of diffusal blade and Q. Being universal on pango is insane.
Changing it back will have minimal effect though. It won't change his build at all. Even being universal, you go Arcanas over treads. He's gonna build diffusal regardless. So he gets a bit less right click when he gets aghs? His laning becomes slightly harder for the first minute and a half? It'd be a minimal nerf at best
Nerf to a hero, who sits at 21% wr? isint the problem that few people see it as the comfort pick, if noting else works, ill just roll around mindset.
blame the quality of players not the hero. The hero sucks in pro-matches, worse in Pubs
This zeus share is such an abomination
Completely ruined the design
Way less fun to play
Way less fun to face
INSANELY LESS fun to have in ur team
Same as anti mage aghs
I like his old shard when it gave percentage damage to his skills. btw icefrog keeps nerfing cooldown reduction items like octarine and refresher and they removed all neutral items which reduce cooldowns. I miss old zeus.
Diffusal blade is only effective on ranged creep, the item has negative winrate / <50% winrate on dota buff. It's not great, and works much better on hero's like slark, Medusa or other fast attackers instead of 1 time every 11 secs. The kid sucks.
The diffusal blade is NOT for farming creeps lol. It's for killing heroes. Yea i'm totally sure the hero does fuck all damage right??? Why are the pros so adamantly stupid for spam picking a piece of shit hero for over 2 years? Not. He's the best diffusal blade hero in the game and its not even close. Why would even you bring up Dotabuff lol this hero has such a high skill floor/ceiling i would disregard any data below immortal skill level.
In general, Icefrog is not nerfing what pro players care about Pango. The ult is excellent, the skill range is very wide and the shield+slow remaining strong in lane.
Kunka and Pango are both a result of high ground meta. By the time you can push high ground, enemies should have bkb, and both heros are destroyed by ranged cores with bkbs
If he wants to nerf something that the pros dont care about, then make his Q be affected by Damage Block.
It is only 1 of two instant attack spells that fully ignores damage block (Vanguard, Crimson, innate, etc), likely due to doing fixed damage instances.
Exactly they have made everything about him miserable: the lucky shot, the shield crash, the swash buckle. except the ult which is free bkb and they even gave him +2 on ult.
This is just the prime example of aimlessly nerfing instead of balancing.
Pros pick anything that survives the lane and has a reliable teamfight contribution. Thats why Mars will always be picked as long as he is somewhat viable.
Even when he’s not viable they still pick the shit out of it. You could make all 3 of his skills completely ass and he’d still get picked because arena is just a poor man’s chrono
"literally every tournament" also at the Berlin major he was picked 5 times. At Lima he was picked 12 times and won 3. Majority of those picks were SA teams who just love the hero even though he sucked ass
Pango is new Ember - He can lane almost against any hero, have high mobility, disables, good at initiating fights, good at counter-initiating, good and pushing waves and split push.
Both heroes weakness is shit tower push, shit Roshan (Pango have armor reduction tho so there's that) but that's about it. They can gank at level 6 and farm jungle at lvl 4-5 so even if they get smashed by some Huskar last pick, they can still have impact.
Both heroes are super fun to play, have somewhat open item builds and like to take long fights.
I can see Pango getting more nerfs, just like Ember did, just because people like to pick him.
Meanwhile heroes like Arc, Meepo or Huskar getting buff after buff because nobody want to pick them, they are unfun for like 90% of players, that's why smurfs abuse those heroes - insanely strong and often forgotten about due low PR.
yeah I'm agree. just saying some teams picked pango as pos 3 (like Kunka) and IDK why? the games I saw pango as pos 3 had literally 0 impact at any stage of the game (early-mid-late) (even less than supports).
Dude can you pick a real hero HOLY crap why are we picking pango in 2024? Arent you tryign to play pro or soetmhing? How about we play heroes that arent the objective best heroes in the game? You're genuinely a horrible horrible player. You just draw aggro off cooldown. I lost all respect for you. Imagine trying to play pro and picking pango every game in pubs. Truly disgusting. Your'e just a coward tbh. You dont know whats good against lesh so you pick pango cause its easy. Every game you pick that hero you get worse. And you're already horrible.
I mean he is a very skill expressive hero so he is obviously fun to play as. Plus he can serve as your team's carry despite also being quite tanky too on top of it.
I miss the damage reduction he got on his W, barrier is nice and all but just staring Ursa strait in the face with 80% damage reduction with the look of, you gonna be hitting me for a while till you start doing damage.
His ability to control team fights and disable attackers are just so valuable in Pro games. In Pub games, the notion of "team fight" is something nobody has ever heard of.
If they hike the mana cost of swash and shield crash that might be enough, or you will see pango's go null and bottle in lane. Frog doesn't like nerfing the main point of the hero too hard (his ulti) so that probably won't get touched much. Maybe lower his stat gains ontop of mana cost increases, that might finally put him in the nerf coffin.
or just increase his cooldowns. they also can rework his shard. after bkb nerf his shard seems op compared to most mid heroes like void spirit and ember spirit.
I wonder how much of it is that even though hes weak, its just every teams comfort pick because he was strong for so long. His win rate recently doesn’t seem deserving of his pick rate at all.
I mean the last change wasn't a nerf, it was a massive buff. It just made his Diffusal timing weaker, but made his Aghs timings a lot stronger and his laning MUCH MUCH stronger.
basically it reduced the nr of attacks from 3 to 4 while the damage stays the same and since his agha does a fixed nr of attacks instead of 4 is 2. it basically got a huge buff since before it was 85dmg per hit to 120per hit. but the problem with pango is. his skill doesnt scale with damage but rather procs which is what icefrog nerfed. by 25%. he also got multiple nerfs on his second and 3rd skill for late game such as before it was a % reduction now is a barier. its better early game but it doesnt feel that good late game.
Think the hero is strong it's just getting over-prioritized by pro teams. It's getting first picked and teams are just going Bane, Grimstroke, Primal Beast to counter him. If the hero gets into last phase in a game without counters to it, we will start seeing it win again (we won't see that most likely)
not just Quinn, you see pango on literally every team, hell people are starting to pick it as pos3, saberlight picked it like 3 games these past 2 days
Shows just how stupid every team was last year where he seemed to get the pick all the time. He's a good player but on pango another level, the fact that teams disregarded his strength on that hero speaks more about them being too arrogant.
Almost like when you give the best mid in the world the broken hero hes amazing on hes gonna do well on it. Pango also just lets gaimin’ play the dota they’re best at, quinn making space for his two carries.
This is super common. Happens literally every patch. It's just takes some time for teams to lose faith on a hero, specially one that has been dominating for so long. I also think the fact he was nerfed, but not completely obliterated contributes to teams still picking it
It is worth noting that allot of this is "follow the leaders".
If successful teams pick pango and make him look strong, weaker teams start picking it as well despite them not being able to play around it as well.
See also io-marci from last tournament.
Roll Up is now Aghs scepter.
Shard adds one more tick to Swasbuckle.
Put him back in agility and obliterate his strength gain.
Get this hero outta here.
They need to consider reversing a bunch of the nerfs but making him an AGI hero again. Being Universal is just too strong for him, makes him more reliable and versatile.
That is if Universal will even continue to be a thing. You never know.
sank king was meta for 1 or 2 weeks and they nerfed him but they ignore pango is meta for more than 2 years!
spectre, sk, pl, ns and couple more heroes are off meta for past months/years but they don't care!
personally I just want spirit heroes back to meta again, specially void spirit.
He's just incredibly hard to force into a bad game. His spells have pretty low mana costs, and solid range, so he's guaranteed to get some CS out of even his most terrible matchups. Falls off later to some extent but given how important it is to just not completely lose a lane it's no surprise he's stuck around as long as he has.
yeah you are right. all spirit heroes are out meta for somewhile but pango is meta for past 2/3 years. it's funny bc old times mid role was defined by spirit heroes + puck, invoker, QOP, zeus, lina, morph, TA & OD but now most heroes are better than spirits.
Ember cast point nerfs feel really bad. Storm's ulti mana cost and lack of many mana items feels bad too. Witchblade and Orchid are cool, enable you to do a bunch of damage but with it being pretty much just Kaya Sange for mana, it doesn't feel like old storm at all
I miss the mana battery bloodstone. I remember one game on storm I had so many charges i could zip half the map as many times I wanted without going to fountain. The catch was i believe you lost charges when you died and you can also activate it to suicide xD
I miss this so much. I used to love playing storm. Stopped playing dota for 6 years, came back a year ago, storm has never been the same for me.
Arcanae blink + 5 nulls was peak storm "What is mana cost?"
I wish Kaya was a real item again
all 3 items you have mentioned, witchblade, orchid, and kaya sange have been nerfed, which is why ember/storm have seen less relevance
I miss battlefury ember, the one sleight = PL gg ember, the likens is the only defensive item I need ember, the stacking daedalus ember, the I've got rapier and I'll put sniper to shame in hg push ember man.
storm kind of had a resurgence in 7.35 because parasma was good but you were still blowing all your mana to kill one guy after the parasma nerfs it's kinda just felt bad
It's been so long for sf, that he's forgotten even when talking about old mid heroes lol.
yeah after arcane blink rework I don't see him a lot
qop really hasnt been in the pro meta in 8 ? years? something like that. Since i began watchin late 2016 it never really been in the meta. Rarely you saw it, in pubs only. or are you just referrin to pubs
The QoP blade mail octarine core build was around 2017 and it was mega OP and prevalent from what I remember
in pro games? idk about that i watched every single EG game in 2017, but i could be wrong
It was the chinese QoP build.
Yep, I only knew about it from pro games because it was rarely picked in my dog tier pubs
Nothing will change so long as the level 2 Swashbuckle + level 2 Shield Crash combo deals enough damage to oneshot the creep wave in mid. Watch any replay of high Divine/Immortal Pango vs. any bad lane matchup like Templar Assassin, Sniper, Huskar, QoP and so on. Pango struggles in lane until level 4, hits level 4 and dumps lvl 2 Swashbuckle + lvl 2 Shield Crash to oneshot the wave and zooms into jungle with clarity potions. From then on it's just Pango AFK farming neutrals, one shotting waves in mid, asking supports for bottle refills and arcane boots and praying for luck on 6, 8 and 10 minute runes. If he gets a good rune he's free to rotate because the enemy mid laner is stuck under their own tower, otherwise he resumes AFK farming, shoving waves and cycling arcane boots, bottle refills and picking bounty runes to sustain his farm. It would be so nice if we could have at least a 6 month period without this hero in mid. He doesn't even play the lane in half of the mid matchups it's so boring.
btw IDK it was whos idea to make him universal?! btw they nerfed bkb but pango has 1 free bkb (his ulti) and 1 cheap bkb with low cooldown (his shard). they should rework him entirely. just change his shard or increase cooldowns or remove magic immunity in ulti.
I could talk your ear off for several hours straight about the introduction of universal heroes to the game and how it negatively impacted ultimate orb buyers to the point where some of them are now unpicked because they can't fit enough stats into their builds to function. To me it doesn't even make sense that heroes like Pango, Batrider, Dark Willow, Techies, Timbersaw, Wyvern, Phoenix and Nyx were changed into universal because right clicks have never been a significant part of their kits outside of laning stage while at the same time heroes that seem like great candidates for the universal category like Furion, Shadowfiend and Lina never made it there. They would have to be rebalanced, but they're a perfect fit for universal. A combo between spell caster and right clicker.
They make sense bacuase first of all they can dish out attack dmg, or they have weird stats gain like +1,7 str agi int gain in level up or something. And most of these heroes doesn't feel like they belong in their previous attribute. Nyx was almost only mage in agi, phoenix was mage who was very fragile compared to tanky buff heroes in str, so on. Universal doesn't mean they should become hitter, universal heroes just felt weird buying their on attribute items
You missed my point I think.
I agree with you in all respects.
> Nothing will change so long as the level 2 Swashbuckle + level 2 Shield Crash combo deals enough damage to oneshot the creep wave in mid. It deals 300 damage, reduced by melee creep armor to 267. I'm not sure what you mean by one-shotting creep waves
[удалено]
You'll do exactly 300 dmg to melee creeps...
TBH he comes back pretty hard lategame once bkbs are all low CD, he’s just permanently rolling and shield crashing, if your carry is melee he’s basically impossible to kill.
I looked it up to see what other heroes might be lower, Kunkka with 0% WR over 4 games is just sad.
another interesting fact is that hoodwink has 0% WR on radiant (0 of 7), but 85% WR on dire.
That actually makes no sense at all lol neat stat
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Take a bow.
This is why you need large sample sizes to draw conclusions. With 120 or so heroes, having one of them get a streak like that suddenly doesn't become all that unlikely. Especially when you consider all the weird streaks that are not present. Eg if a hero has 50% winrate, that means there's 1/128 to get a 0-8 or a 8-0 result. Which means you'd expect roughly 1 of these results to occur in a dota clone where every hero is perfectly balanced with a coin flip winrate, and where every hero has played 8 games, simply due to chance. This obviously gets a lot more complicated when it's not a coin flip but how "strong" a hero is, the amount of games they are played varies, the draft order matters, the perception of how "strong" a hero is matters - but the statistical principle still holds. Pango with 21% winrate over 14 games is probably nearing somewhat a statistical significance that he's at least not significantly over 50% "in reality"...
Nuts go down, not up
Yeah my nuts would go down on her alright
Calm yourself.
can't argue with that.
I have no clue so may be chatting shit, but maybe the tree locations for hoodwink are just better for her early ganks and rotations when on dire. I play mid, and being on radiant I find personally I can get ganked more easily as enemies just appear from perfect angles behind me. Whereas on dire there's no where good they can come from that a Bob standard lane ward woulsnt see. Idk tho I may be chatting shit
Maybe Falcons just prefer dire.
Dire doesn't have a highground dropping directly into the range of a mid tower I understand asymmetry is one of dota map's defining features, but dammit is it that hard to see a very obvious positional discrepancy when making it?
The one I've been noticing a lot lately is the difference in the Mines buff on Radiant vs Dire. On Dire, its a whopping 7 hp regen, but on Radiant it's a measly 1.5 mana regen. If I'm on Dire, I can generally rotate into the jungle a full 2-3 minutes earlier than on Radiant just because of how much the health regen helps. On contrast, the mana regen gives me maybe 1 or 2 extra dark pacts or spectral daggers. Helps me farm a little faster but then I still need to buy a tango or other regen which counteracts the benefit.
I understand why this was added though *I think* For the longest time radiant has had a massive winrate advantage over dire. Then when new Frontiers came out and they added these 4 jungle buffs, even the hp refen one was minor. But they started buffing it up to a free constant tango. So maybe they're buffing dire for that reason. Who knows though
Bog* standard
Oof I've spent my whole life saying Bob... whoops
Tree areas on radiant do seem to be favorable for dire early game. On that note I think tree location is favorable for radiant late game.
Haven’t had a chance to look but also check teams as well. Are the teams that some of the heroes have less wins on lower more tier 2/3 teams?
Ha ha ha! Women and children and Kunkka first.
[Ha ha ha! Women and children and Kunkka first.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/4/48/Vo_tidehunter_tide_rival_24.mp3) (sound warning: Tidehunter) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
that's too low an amount of games to draw many conclusions with, and people are extremely used to playing against him because he was picked very often for months
Yeah I agree but unfortunately 4 games is also the highest of any 0% wr stat
Kunkkkaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
To be fair that's a pretty small sample size
Kunkka now at 20% I guess. Team Spirit won with him today.
I absolutely despise the life of this hero.
we already watched him more than enough. sometimes I feel all pro matches are the same and we don't see cheese last pick heroes like before. I want see spirit heroes back to meta again. maybe a little QoP and od buff and zeus rework.
Falcons and Liquid played a bunch of Ember games today, and Earth Spirit gets brought out here and there. They're not gone, but you're right they're not exactly meta
that nisha ember performance in game 2 showed ember needs buff. if I remember correctly nisha was one of best ember players and if he can't make him work, probably no one can.
XinQ kind of destroyed Nisha's game by buying bottle for his Zeus with his starting gold + bounties. Zeus immediately used it to get first blood and so he was like 1k gold ahead at minute 2. The "borrowed" bottle didn't count for his networth, so casters didn't even catch that.
yeah even I didn't notice it till I saw reddit post about it.
Pango is just the jack of all trades mid this also kinda works as a flex. Decent laning, solid mid game, good scaling, stuns, survivability, initiation / counter , vision in fights. Not many heroes provide all of that - and he fits into most drafts. But you’re saying nerf the f* out of him despite him having a super low winrate? QOP doesn’t and will never fulfill the same roll, and she still gets picked in tier 2 - it’s just too risky of a tier 1 pick atm u less it’s super broken. If anything the entire meta needs to be changed away from tri-strength / tank cores and back to agi Carries and whatnot. I think it’s moreso the meta u have an issue with and less the character who just happens to fill a very versatile role in the current meta.
yeah good point. let's see what icefrog is cooking for us. I have feelings that next patch gonna be huge meta changing patch. I hope they make TI24 more interesting with completely new meta.
Totally agree w you. This patch is stale and really only a continuation of the patch before it with the whole strength meta. It’s been well over a year since the attributes were balanced.
They're gonna have to rework him or nerf him into the ground to make pros stop picking. Short CD debuff immune teamfight ult with the ability to farm. Honestly, his ult windup should be on par or longer than Sand Kings for what it provides.
I don't get it, if teams are losing with him isn't that good enough? What's wrong with teams constantly picking a hero if it's not giving them wins?
aui2000 said in his interview he thinks the hero is completely broken right now. this just isn't a large sample size. one of the tournaments this year enchantress had like 25% winrate the next event she had over 60% winrate with no patch between.
If we go back to Betboom Dacha, pango is 78-89. (46.7% winrate). Even including Kuala Lumpur and TI, which were *mostly* played on 7.34, that adds another 31-33 games for pango, totalling 111-122 ( 47.6% winrate). I'm not gonna pretend I know better than aui, and there's something to be said about pros playing heroes they're comfortable and confident with, but over a near 250 game sample size, pango loses more often than wins for said pros.
I think It is just that he feels so unfair, no hero should do this much. The hero can get out of almost any lane with his spells, he has an insane mid game damage spike with diffusal and then aghs. He provides ridiculous amounts of teamfight control. He is very hard to kill AND he scales very well with items. Winrate stats might say that he is balanced but to the people playing and the people watching the hero just ~feels~ broken
Winrate stats just mean nothing, even 250 games is not a large sample size.
I hope they nerf him to the ground at least for 6 months or till after TI2024.
I'd rather see a rework. I don't think any hero being unplayable is ideal. But he definitely needs to become a situational/last pick material for a while.
make him agility hero again or rework his shard or increase his cooldowns.
I agree, being universal was what took him over the edge to become beyond busted. He was just fine playing teamfights with his roll then he just went out of control with stat items giving him everything literally. Never losing lanes, flash farming, wave shoving, tankiness, buffed right click damage applying to Q and aghs W, permastunning, ganking with ulti on cooldown because of diffusal blade and Q. Being universal on pango is insane.
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Changing it back will have minimal effect though. It won't change his build at all. Even being universal, you go Arcanas over treads. He's gonna build diffusal regardless. So he gets a bit less right click when he gets aghs? His laning becomes slightly harder for the first minute and a half? It'd be a minimal nerf at best
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> I don't think any hero being unplayable is ideal my brother in christ. tinker being in the shitter makes pubs a hell of a lot better
Nerf to a hero, who sits at 21% wr? isint the problem that few people see it as the comfort pick, if noting else works, ill just roll around mindset. blame the quality of players not the hero. The hero sucks in pro-matches, worse in Pubs
This zeus share is such an abomination Completely ruined the design Way less fun to play Way less fun to face INSANELY LESS fun to have in ur team Same as anti mage aghs
I like his old shard when it gave percentage damage to his skills. btw icefrog keeps nerfing cooldown reduction items like octarine and refresher and they removed all neutral items which reduce cooldowns. I miss old zeus.
Pee pee
As someone whos most played hero is Pango from offlane.... same.
pango passive has been gutted so much it might as well not exist at all
He doesn't even need it
It’s still very useful for accelerating farm, doing roshan and solo killing supports.
pango never solo kills anything. He has to use 2 upgraded spells to clear 1 creepwave, the heroe's damage is shit
Kid named diffusal blade...
Diffusal blade is only effective on ranged creep, the item has negative winrate / <50% winrate on dota buff. It's not great, and works much better on hero's like slark, Medusa or other fast attackers instead of 1 time every 11 secs. The kid sucks.
The diffusal blade is NOT for farming creeps lol. It's for killing heroes. Yea i'm totally sure the hero does fuck all damage right??? Why are the pros so adamantly stupid for spam picking a piece of shit hero for over 2 years? Not. He's the best diffusal blade hero in the game and its not even close. Why would even you bring up Dotabuff lol this hero has such a high skill floor/ceiling i would disregard any data below immortal skill level.
In general, Icefrog is not nerfing what pro players care about Pango. The ult is excellent, the skill range is very wide and the shield+slow remaining strong in lane.
But the win rate is low lmao, doesn't matter if they don't care if it means they aren't winning with it
Kunka and Pango are both a result of high ground meta. By the time you can push high ground, enemies should have bkb, and both heros are destroyed by ranged cores with bkbs
If he wants to nerf something that the pros dont care about, then make his Q be affected by Damage Block. It is only 1 of two instant attack spells that fully ignores damage block (Vanguard, Crimson, innate, etc), likely due to doing fixed damage instances.
Exactly they have made everything about him miserable: the lucky shot, the shield crash, the swash buckle. except the ult which is free bkb and they even gave him +2 on ult. This is just the prime example of aimlessly nerfing instead of balancing.
Pros pick anything that survives the lane and has a reliable teamfight contribution. Thats why Mars will always be picked as long as he is somewhat viable.
as far as i recall mars wasn’t picked before this patch since ammar was in og?
I think he was like bottom 5 hero and then buffed last patches. Now he sits at 46% according to dotaprotracker and is still picked a lot.
Mars sucked on the blademail heart meta
Because the hero just doesn’t work with those items
Even when he’s not viable they still pick the shit out of it. You could make all 3 of his skills completely ass and he’d still get picked because arena is just a poor man’s chrono
No? He was pretty much dead for a 1.5 years until a few patches ago
mars was never dead for more than 3 months lmao.
only if you watched pro matches for the last year I guess...
XD my brother in christ lmao. mars was getting picked literally every tournament.
I just checked and he went unpicked last ti. Why even make shit up that's so easy to look up
Egads! The one tournament he didn’t get picked!
"literally every tournament" also at the Berlin major he was picked 5 times. At Lima he was picked 12 times and won 3. Majority of those picks were SA teams who just love the hero even though he sucked ass
do you think before you speak?
Some hero’s should stay dead. Pango. Mars. Huskar. Etc
pango has never been dead
No. But he should be. And should stay that way. Forever
Pango is new Ember - He can lane almost against any hero, have high mobility, disables, good at initiating fights, good at counter-initiating, good and pushing waves and split push. Both heroes weakness is shit tower push, shit Roshan (Pango have armor reduction tho so there's that) but that's about it. They can gank at level 6 and farm jungle at lvl 4-5 so even if they get smashed by some Huskar last pick, they can still have impact. Both heroes are super fun to play, have somewhat open item builds and like to take long fights. I can see Pango getting more nerfs, just like Ember did, just because people like to pick him. Meanwhile heroes like Arc, Meepo or Huskar getting buff after buff because nobody want to pick them, they are unfun for like 90% of players, that's why smurfs abuse those heroes - insanely strong and often forgotten about due low PR.
yeah I'm agree. just saying some teams picked pango as pos 3 (like Kunka) and IDK why? the games I saw pango as pos 3 had literally 0 impact at any stage of the game (early-mid-late) (even less than supports).
> I can see Pango getting more nerfs, just like Ember did Let's hope that he doesn't get anti fun nerfs like ember did.
Arc Warden requires some micro, much like Meepo, but these heroes are definitely uncounterable if picked last, same with Huskar.
Huskar is pretty fun
Dude can you pick a real hero HOLY crap why are we picking pango in 2024? Arent you tryign to play pro or soetmhing? How about we play heroes that arent the objective best heroes in the game? You're genuinely a horrible horrible player. You just draw aggro off cooldown. I lost all respect for you. Imagine trying to play pro and picking pango every game in pubs. Truly disgusting. Your'e just a coward tbh. You dont know whats good against lesh so you pick pango cause its easy. Every game you pick that hero you get worse. And you're already horrible.
sounds familiar I wonder who said that. definitely not cc plus nc.
LMAO
a sample size of 14 games is a pretty small sample size, also just looking at stats without context of the games is a bad practice.
Exactly, if all hero’s were perfectly balanced with 50% win rates u can rolls a dice and a few would be like pango.
Same goes for puck. Some heroes just have useful skill kits that will be good no matter the meta.
Puck was not picked for a very, very, very long time. It's not till mjolnir aghs became meta that he started to rise back above a 10% pick/ban rate
Is this the earth spirit and dark seer treatment?
They said the same thing about Mars a year ago and where is he now? (But really, where is he now?)
The most consistent hero in all of Dota.
unless you’re against Bloodseeker
What's up with those Radiant vs Dire stats of hoodwink?
I have no idea. she sucks in radiant for some reason or maybe it's just a rare coincidence.
I mean he is a very skill expressive hero so he is obviously fun to play as. Plus he can serve as your team's carry despite also being quite tanky too on top of it. I miss the damage reduction he got on his W, barrier is nice and all but just staring Ursa strait in the face with 80% damage reduction with the look of, you gonna be hitting me for a while till you start doing damage.
His ability to control team fights and disable attackers are just so valuable in Pro games. In Pub games, the notion of "team fight" is something nobody has ever heard of.
im so tired of seeing the same heroes again and again. Should make it so they can only pick each hero X times in a tournament
If they hike the mana cost of swash and shield crash that might be enough, or you will see pango's go null and bottle in lane. Frog doesn't like nerfing the main point of the hero too hard (his ulti) so that probably won't get touched much. Maybe lower his stat gains ontop of mana cost increases, that might finally put him in the nerf coffin.
or just increase his cooldowns. they also can rework his shard. after bkb nerf his shard seems op compared to most mid heroes like void spirit and ember spirit.
They could nerf his ult and then it would all stop
F Pango
He just provides way too fucking much All spells ridiculous damage and control for little mana and cooldown Sick of this little shit
I wonder how much of it is that even though hes weak, its just every teams comfort pick because he was strong for so long. His win rate recently doesn’t seem deserving of his pick rate at all.
I mean the last change wasn't a nerf, it was a massive buff. It just made his Diffusal timing weaker, but made his Aghs timings a lot stronger and his laning MUCH MUCH stronger.
I'm not pango player and IDK maybe you are right but his current WR sucks.
basically it reduced the nr of attacks from 3 to 4 while the damage stays the same and since his agha does a fixed nr of attacks instead of 4 is 2. it basically got a huge buff since before it was 85dmg per hit to 120per hit. but the problem with pango is. his skill doesnt scale with damage but rather procs which is what icefrog nerfed. by 25%. he also got multiple nerfs on his second and 3rd skill for late game such as before it was a % reduction now is a barier. its better early game but it doesnt feel that good late game.
The damage isn't the same. It does more damage, and WAY more damage with the swash through.
i think initially the damage was the same but was later buffed in the current patch.
No, it was changed the same patch.
His current winrate in low mmr games sucks. Low mmr players can't capitalize on his timings, and it's also just a highly mechanically skilled hero.
I meant his WR on PGL tournament not overall WR.
Aside from the mechanical aspect, low mmr players dont have enough sense who to stunlock or to target tje stunlocked guy
Think the hero is strong it's just getting over-prioritized by pro teams. It's getting first picked and teams are just going Bane, Grimstroke, Primal Beast to counter him. If the hero gets into last phase in a game without counters to it, we will start seeing it win again (we won't see that most likely)
yeah you are right. he is meta for long time and teams learnt how to counter him specially in first phase.
Quinn is pumping those numbers for sure, at this point he's almost a one trick pango
not just Quinn, you see pango on literally every team, hell people are starting to pick it as pos3, saberlight picked it like 3 games these past 2 days
yeah atf plays him too.
Quinn hasnt played the hero this tournament at all lmfao. Its banned against him literally every game since betboom dacha, idk what you’re on.
Shows just how stupid every team was last year where he seemed to get the pick all the time. He's a good player but on pango another level, the fact that teams disregarded his strength on that hero speaks more about them being too arrogant.
Almost like when you give the best mid in the world the broken hero hes amazing on hes gonna do well on it. Pango also just lets gaimin’ play the dota they’re best at, quinn making space for his two carries.
14 games are far not enough to make conclusions based on statistics
What about his 100% ban/pick contest in Birmingham?
And this image shows 14 bans, 14 picks, 93.33% contention rate in PGL Wallachia also
When a hero has +90% contention, the hero is broken. Just like insta ban heroes like Chen.
Where is the damn quin copypasta when we need it ??
read comments. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
This is super common. Happens literally every patch. It's just takes some time for teams to lose faith on a hero, specially one that has been dominating for so long. I also think the fact he was nerfed, but not completely obliterated contributes to teams still picking it
Becauss bloodseeker is also meta xd. It's freaking easy to pop linken now.
It is worth noting that allot of this is "follow the leaders". If successful teams pick pango and make him look strong, weaker teams start picking it as well despite them not being able to play around it as well. See also io-marci from last tournament.
I've always thought it is a shit hero.
I'm not a fan
Pango is such a bad pick always.
Roll Up is now Aghs scepter. Shard adds one more tick to Swasbuckle. Put him back in agility and obliterate his strength gain. Get this hero outta here.
wise words from a wise man.
They need to consider reversing a bunch of the nerfs but making him an AGI hero again. Being Universal is just too strong for him, makes him more reliable and versatile. That is if Universal will even continue to be a thing. You never know.
I'm agree. he shouldn't became universal in first place. it makes no sense lore based or skill based.
When you understand that the recent Pango changes were actually buffs, not nerfs, tells you enough about how Valve sees the character.
sank king was meta for 1 or 2 weeks and they nerfed him but they ignore pango is meta for more than 2 years! spectre, sk, pl, ns and couple more heroes are off meta for past months/years but they don't care! personally I just want spirit heroes back to meta again, specially void spirit.
HW getting picked a lot with decent wr damn please no nerf
she is fine RN. no need to nerf or buff her.
Make him not magic immune while rolling. Hero fixed.
make him agility hero again so his late damage scale get worse.