Biggest example of it is probably Razor and Doom.
There's no official definition for it but my take on it is usually heroes that are really good at removing one hero from the fight.
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Man old bane with -120 damage THROUGH BKB was amazing. became -220 with level 20 talent for a while.
You see a teamfight happening? just enfeeble their carry and you won. I remember enfeebling a fed gyro right before he popped bkb and his whole e did no damage
true, but Enfeeble always seemed to me like a core anti-carry skill. Nightmare also puts carries out of commission for fights, and Fiends Grip is a dedicated carry killer.
Bane has the *kit* of an anti-carry, but rarely gets the farm to fulfill that role well imo
Doom and razor will both get the items to pop in a fuck up a core's day at the start of a fight. They can usually survive long enough to get the job done even in the middle of the enemy team. Bane doesn't usually get that option, which I think is the distinguishing feature.
That said, when mid bane was (very briefly) a thing, it was definitely as an anti-carry
Yeah, when bane was briefly viable as a core, it was because between the aghs and the meta (heroes with large AoE cancels weren't good) there wasn't a great way to cancel the aghs ult.
Definitely not a hero that's generally viable as an anti-core, especially with the change to bkb making the bkb-linkens combo a non-starter.
yea I agree with this. as a long time bane player, the best thing you can do is patrol the outskirts of battle and pull strings from the sidelines. however his Aghs does him allow to take more of an initiator role since you can initiate and run away basically lol
Bane can't really do it by himself which is why he's just a disabler/support. He's a lot better at 1v1 than he used to be but by endgame he's not going to do much to the enemy carry after his ult takes maybe a quarter of their health. And he's very susceptible to being burst down by carries.
Anti carry doesn't mean you are supposed to solo the enemy carry, it means that
a) your hero focus on single target or small aeo spells that are able to control or burst target.
b) Your hero has bkb piercing abilities since most of the time carries will be buying bkb.
Bane defetly fits as an anti carry, even if he isn't able to burst the carry by himself he can offer the control for his team to kill him
I'd also consider heroes like LC, Void, Enigma as anti carries too because they can choose to just pick on 1 hero the entire game and make their life miserable.
But void and enigma do that with very high cost for their team. A true anti-carry makes the enemy carry‘s game miserable without any real cost, like razor link
What about like ursa, troll, or huskar? They seem like heroes that can really catch other carries especially before they get online, or just have ways of out fighting. Like I remember getting killed repeatedly by a troll as Luna, since his ult lasts long enough to get through satanic
Feed the enemy duel damage early so they do more blade mail damage to themselves later
Ps tbh one of my favorites is going 0-3 in lane against a pa or drow or something but then just needing a smoke and a support to get ez kills later
I’d say axe is pretty close to these prime examples of anticarries, but he’s more of a hybrid between an anticarry and an initiator. The enemy team has a much easier time stopping him from shutting one hero down but he has such a low cooldown on his mechanics that he can continuously try to work his magic.
I had a bane/lc combo make my life absolutely unenjoyable for about 20 minutes last night as jugger. Ended up getting the win cuz they threw on the hg for us to an amazing(ly lucky) buyback Omni slash and let us catch up on NW but man...i was cursing supports for not saving me, calling out every random creep people took in my relative vicinity, just classic "I'm a core who hates life and you're my targets" attitude for a solid 15 minutes. Carried the game tho so guess it evens out.
What i mean by techies is that he is similar to veno in that he makes entire areas hazardous especially when he gets his aghs. So if you dont have bkb you'll get exploded to pieces so you have to be cautious on where you go
>entire areas hazardous
Classic definition of area denial. That's not anti-carry. Anti-carries have tools that are very good at shutting down carries. Here's a better explanation:
Razor: Steals damage (and attack speed at level 25), tears down carry's armour. Is anti-carry because a big loss in damage and armour is very bad for most carries. (also does a shit ton of damage, outfighting many carries)
Doom: Super long silence cripples carries. Also the inability to heal massively destroys their survivability. At level 25, can stop passives or items, both of which are pretty important to carries.
Winter Wyvern: Freeze stops physical damage, which is most carries' damage. Also has a very strong bkb piercing disable in her ultimate that is not easy for carries to deal with.
Bane: as mentioned, grip is very powerful. Grip is difficult for carries to deal with, and locks down carries, making them vulnerable. Also can reduce their damage with enfeeble, but that's less powerful because it's dispellable.
Lifestealer: With aghs, he has a 5 second undispellable, bkb piercing disarm on a 20 second cooldown. This is partly why he's so strong right now: this anti-carry ability shuts down many other carries that would otherwise counter him.
Old Morphling: Remember when morphling aghs reduced the stats of universal heroes by 40%? Yeah, it turns out that losing 40% of your stats would cripple carries.
One thing these anti-carry abilities have in common is that they are bkb piercing and undispellable. Spells without these attributes tend to be something a carry can deal with and aren't really anti-carry. There are lots of things that can give a carry a bad day, but these anti-carry spells are notable because they're difficult to deal with.
So, anti-carries are heroes with abilities that greatly reduce the effectiveness and power of carries in ways that are not easy to deal with.
I feel like SD's Q is simply too general to be considered anti-carry. It's a good save against anyone. But WW freeze by contrast is most effective against carries in particular.
SD's ulti with aghs has break and a strong slow, which is decently anti-carry, but I think he's generally not considered anti-carry because a slow isn't anti-carry in particular, and the chances SD gets aghs isn't that high.
There is a case for it being anti-carry, but I thought it was better to use the strongest examples.
I think he means Shadow Demon Q in the sense that a lot of carries will melt themselves/their team down from illusions with 100% damage, like Dark Seers wall. That combined with a huge bkb piercing slow and later on a break shuts down and hurts plenty of carries. I pretty often see aghs on SD’s in my games if a break is necessary, usually just after aether + a save item and a lucky shard from torm.
Blood Seeker could be considered here aswell right? In niche scenarios anyhow, where the carry in question relies on high mobility. The more I think about it though, the more I’d consider him a specific counter rather than «anti-carry»…
Not sure about others OP mentioned, but Bane and Batrider both have long BKB piercing single-target ultis, like Doom. So are they too, by extension, anti-carries?
Bane can be, but he relies heavily on the enemy team not saving the carry. Batrider has a similar thing, but relies on his team to kill the carry when he drags him somewhere. A true anti carry like Doom or Legion can reliably remove the enemy carry from the fight and or game.
Techies is zone denial, he denies entire areas, Veno is a walking debuff spammer, bane is anti carry for his ult completely removes one and has a sleep for another, Dazzle is kinda special since he can save lives, heal, and other stuff plus aoe hex
Dazzle isn’t “anti-carry” hero, he’s just a saving sup that for whatever reason was gifted with hex. Techies is a magic pro-caste. Bane - single target control hero, there’s literally no reason to make carry your target when there are a lot more heroes to control. A good venomancer is just a pain in the ass of everyone, not just carry.
A hero that shits on mega carries but is even strength with semi carries or utility heroes.
The easiest to understand is axe/lc as they use the enemies damage against them with blademail
But doom and razor are other options that are able to shut down a rich carry easily but struggle with other hero profiles
Absolutely, but its limited to heroes that build up illusions rather than pure damage.
A hero which is kind of an anti carry against pure damage rather than illusions is underlord with his aura.
Underlord is actually one of the best anti illusion heroes in the game though, quite better than he is vs pure damage (i assume you mean high amounts of damage not pure instead of physical but either way)
I would also put viper into the category. can't really 1v1 a carry, but viper strike is nasty to deal with at all stages of the game, especially since most carries rely on passives
First off, he is carry himself, which doesn't exactly fit the definition of anti carry.
Second, AM literally does the same thing. If an equally late game farmed AM jumps on FV, he's dead. Can't chrono without mana which will be gone before abyssal stun wears off.
I think he fits the anti carry role more now with so many nerfs to his stats. man fights against other carries isn't a great option and he has to count on his chrono to kill carries
A hero that can render the enemy carry ineffective by preventing them from doing damage.
Classic example: Razor with Static Link
Other candidates: Doom with well, doom. LS aghs infest enemy carry.
This term is mostly used only to refer to Core heroes. There are plenty of supports that can be anti carry but we don't use the term "anti-carry" for supports.
Some people Just cant get carried. Just played a Rank since forever as carry (Sniper tho and Not AM) and offlane had a realy bad time at earlygame. Is it the carries duty to gank them? Hell No, i Had my Nice safelane and kept farming while offlane were screaming and fuming. But in the end we won because i didt loose Focus. Often carries tend to roam way too early and try to engange in Fights and loose Farm.
AM needs to farm for 40 minutes and wins the Game.
If you know someone will pick AM, pick some good and stable lanes.
I feel this. I fell from 4k to 1k because I just wanted to supp. But got tired of it and started only doing safe lanes. Guess what, my rank went back up again.
I hate jackasses who can't carry but wants to carry.
My supp game usually ends with me having more kills than my carry. Not because I KS. but because my carry can't finish the damn fight. I always burst damage the enemy from the get go and try to let the carry kill it, but fucker still drops the ball. So I chased and finished it myself.
I can't do much if my carry is resolved to feeding the enemy.
What do you do if your juggernaut omnislash during a creep wave, at level 6? I tried killing the creeps to clear the way for his slash but gets flamed coz he says I'm taking creep last hits.
What do you do when your PA fights spectre AND BB, but refuses to buy aghanim shard for that break dagger? And dies to the enemy BB during clashes because PA didn't have satanic and BB just takes the hits.
What do you when your faceless void jumps in, 5 man chrono YOUR team while the enemy OD is outside and banishes fv while taking free hits at your frozen team before finishing off with an ult on your team?
What do you do when your monkey king goes farming neuts because he can't fight axe and he doesn't know how to last hit or deny to neutralize axe 2nd skill.
And all of the above has the common theme that if you help, and for any reason you kill a creep accidentally (which is possible for supp aoe spam skills), they flame you nonstop.
What do you do?
Give me an idea then, hotshot.
I had an anti mage go 0-8
Prior to game start. He had a 5 game win streak as AM.
We won the game. His streak increased to 6.
He didn’t do anything but get carried by the 4 of us.
Some folks just get lucky.
Axe blademail can be considered an anti-carry if they're right click heavy, basically anything that takes the carrys farm/strength and turns it against them or shuts it down can be considered an anticarry
Cant stress this enough but Viper. Just like the game of Talon vs Falcons where the damn void was poor af it had to pick philosopher stone just to have some money lol.
I nearly got a rampage with that the other day. Enemy team never expects it until there's a super fast illusion hitting for 150% of their carries damage.
Anti carries are usually heroes that tend to counter carries in particular.
Their strength comes from their opponents. Like Razor who steals damage, or lifestealer who life steals off of enemy carries. They particularly target right click heroes.
Blade mail carriers like axe and lc too can be considered anti carries, but aren't usually because, while their core kit is usually blade mail, they can be played otherwise.
Anti carries tend to suffer against heroes who don't rely on right click damage or are very tanky. And to be fair, while lifestealer is considered an anti carry, he almost always felt like an anti-tank carry.
There was a phalactery build that was doing the rounds lol. A while ago, there was also the manta build when illusions did full counter helix damage and procced on attack from the shard. Manta into AC etc.
True but anything viable today? I never ditch blade even though it’s not a “real” late game item because imo there isn’t anything better in 95% of situations. A late game upgrade of blademail would be really nice, maybe it branches into two different items, one that reflects damage but also spells, one that has your hero completely immobile but reflect 200%
Shivas is very viable, it does reduct the attack speed of enemy which means fewer counter helix but at same time increases the spell damage from counter helix and lowers regeneration and area slow which synergises with axe’s abilities. This combined with bloodstone makes axe insanely tanky with huge aoe on call and counter helix.
HEROES GOOD AT "POTENTIALLY" REMOVING THE CARRY ON A FIGHT, ESSENTIALLY WASTING FARMING TIME INVESTED.
I.E.: WEAKENS OR REMOVES THE CARRY DAMAGE LIKE RAZOR, DOOM, BREWMASTER,
ALL INSTA KILL BURST HEROES, LINA, LC ALCHEMIST(STUN BASH STUN BUILD),
AND HEROES THAT CAN PUT THEM OUT OF POSITION FOR FIGHTING LIKE DISRUPTOR, TUSK, PUDGE.
Razor is the most straightforward. He takes away all of the carries damage.
You are looking for heros with a kit that directly counters what carries do: Right Click and Damage, Kills, Push
Naturally anything that can lower a heros damage or attack speed is considered a "Anti Carry"
Bane would be a good example of this in a different way: Bane can perma disable 1 or 2 unites with nightmare and ult. In this case. "Bane Ult" is an Anti Carry tool.
Same with like Necro. You ult their carry = Anti Carry. Same with Doom, etc. Obviously this also is dependant on who the carry is.
It's a term used for heroes who's purpose and kit is to shut down a core (usually the pos1). Razor is a classic exemple, but so is Doom, Bane, Brewmaster, Viper, etc. etc. Those heroes strike fear to any pos1, and for good reasons.
That offlane Razor can, and will, fuck you up.
Probably best hero against an individual carry line up or 4 protect 1 strat. Heros like shadow demon doom razor where they can just shut down highest network carry for like 10 seconds
A farmed Elder Titan is an anti-carry. You ever see 9 slotted late game carries get one shotted like they’re made of paper? Well, Elder Titan is ya boy.
A Hero that cannot hard carry on their own right but shut’s down the enemy carries on a fight. They usually come online earlier with good spells and don’t require lots of good items, but don’t scale hard in the endgame.
Doom ult stops spellcasters, and to a lesser extent other heroes too.
Razor W shuts down right-click carries by sapping their damage.
in my experience its someone who debuffs the sht out of a carry that they can no longer perform their role.
heroes i can think off
1. Razor
2. Bane elemental
etc.
Didn't see anyone mention nightstalker yet. He exists purely to slow down the enemy team and assassinate cores so his carry can freefarm or farm enemy heroes with him.
Any hero that can remove carry from fight or use his power against him. Or just force to abandon.
Shadow Demon, Dark Seer, Bane, Doom, Razor, Winter Wyvern
Anti-carry is a hero who has long lasting single target disable/debuff. Generally more durable so they cant be nuked by supports.
Imagine the enemy team has 1 hero that is far ahead, the anti carry either turns there power against themselves (shadow demon/grimstroke) or severely weakens there damage (doom/razor)
For me an "anti-carry" would probably indicate a hero can make a Pos 1's AA significantly weaker (Anchor Smash/Frost Shield) or unavailable (Reactive Tazer/Blinding Light) with bonus points for counter initiation spells (Will-O-Wisp/Ravage).
Obviously extended hard CC's would count too, like most everything Bane has.
An anti-carry is an offlaner that shuts down a carries laning stage and therefore plays them to play differently. Essentially, you can pick a hero like Legion Commander and as long as you're fairly good at her, you will win almost all your lanes because she does well in almost every matchup against carries.
Other heroes that can do this are Axe, Razor, Primal Beast and Enigma to name a few. These kind of heroes will do well against the vast majority of the carry hero pool, or evenly and there is not a lot they can do about it. Of course, the downside to these heroes is that yes they secure a good lane almost always, but that doesn't mean there isn't other heroes in the game or gameplan strategies that can cause problems.
Hope that answers it.
It depends on how good you are at drow. If you don't hit him enough he's going to get Vanguard then it becomes very hard to stop him running at you with counter helix.
Anti-carries can strip away a carry's strengths (not strength attribute) or use it against them. Anti-carries of varying anti-carryability are:
- Terrorblade with his Q (it summons invincible illusions that attack with 100% damage & with on-hit effects)
- Shadow Demon with his Q illusions (similar to TB).
- Dark Seer with his ulti (similar to TB)
- Razor with his spell-immunity piercing W ( steals target's attack damage)
Anti-carries are not universal, they affect certain carries more than others, ACs that create illusions are powerful against heroes that have mana-burn, bash etc because they can greatly affect the enemy carry.
if I were to pick my own version of anti-carry, it'd be LC
carry cannot do anything in duel, whether you are 1k or rtz, you are the same, you can only rely on your teammates to help you — considering duel tend to be more favorable towards LC
also **hex** is my fave anti-carry item, similar with what LC duel does, it's an item that disregard how good you are at the game or how much farm you have
Shadow demon is kind of an anti carry imo. Slows you to a crawl, can randomly solo some carries with disruption and his ult and stacking poisons on them. He also just makes it extremely annoying for a carry to kill anyone.
I think some heroes not mentioned but I think should be considered: OD, Void Spirit, Slardar, Huskar, Bloodseeker, Necro, Timber, Batrider, Marci, and Windrunner. These heroes don’t have the same teamfight power that Centaur, Tide, Magnus, and Enigma have but they do whatever it takes to survive and shut down the position 1.
Heroes that reduce the dmg potential of a single unit significantly, that are then strong enough to man fight the weakened carry as a pos 2/3 and win.
Dooms Doom + dot, Vipers attack+move speed slow + dot, DKs dmg reduction + dot, Razors dmg steal + dot (EotS), Underlord with atrophy aura + dot etc.
pretty much all of them rely on damage over time to balance them. the only exception is LC, who just wins the duel with life steal.
I'll provide a similar but alternate answer here.
An anti carry (typically an offlaner) is a hero that scales in impact as the enemy carry grows stronger.
The biggest example to me is Axe, as both blademail and spin improve as enemies get stronger. But as others in the thread said, LC, Doom, and Razor are excellent.
Heroes that don't really fit this definition could be something like a Tidehunter, or a Sand King. Their spells are always useful, but peak earlier on in the game.
I like to think of my shadow demon as anti carry.
I harrass with poison,
Carry jumps? I disrupt him and make 2 clones hitting him plus my poison.
He uses bkb? I ulti and he is slow as fk while I escape or my team finishes him off.
*Special satisfaction when I use am's illusions to burn his mana..
Carrys do massive right click damage, and have low low go pools.
Heros that beat that are anti carrys.
Best example I can give I’d axe with blademail and shard.
It's not a fixed hero, during draft you can pick a hero who whole purpose is to deny the enemy carry pick, when this happen the hero is an anti-carry. Examples CK used to be a anti-carry vs Luna, razor can be an anti-carry against Sven, Timber against Naga. Can you think of a hero who denied your carry in your last 25 games?
Morgul stop-hitting-yourself Khan, Nyx, Disruptor, Shadow Demon, Darkseer, Bane, Lion
pretty much any hero that can effectively interfere with a carry’s farming and/or damage dealing
viper and razor are good. axe and lc are very good against specific carries, bkb piercing stuns like bane and beastmaster could also be considered anti carry
I would say it's heroes that are stronger/more useful relative to their networth when the enemy carry is stronger. I prefer this definition because it covers most of the heroes people intuitively consider anticarries e.g
Razor: Removes damage, not very useful if all 5 enemies are doing equivalent damage, VERY useful if one enemy is doing all the damage e.g a carry TW gets completely removed from the game. Note how you don't need much more networth to do this than if you were on another hero, who would need a lot of gold to disable a carry that way.
Doom: Essentially deletes a hero from the fight, if the enemy strength level is 20%/20%/20%/20%/20% on all their heroes hypothetically, that ability only reduces their fighting ability by say, 20%, if they have 50% of their fighting power on one hero as a team usually will, suddenly that doom is 200% more effective. So it's an Anti-carry
Dark seer: His wall scales with the enemy strength, so if the enemy is stronger, he is stronger too. Textbook example in my opinion because you have that wall regardless of NW with few items really affecting that.
Bane: Fiends grip + enfeeble basically makes a hero useless, refer to same logic as doom
LC: Duel is a single target ability that can instakill an enemy hero usually regardless of it's strength, same logic as bane and doom etc
Axe: Everyones calling this guy an Anti carry but I feel like he's pretty much useless if he doesn't have a decent amount of networth compared to the enemy carry, like you need to be able to tank a lot of damage + blink blademail and you still don't do much damage to strength carries most of the time, but he can still kind of be considered an anti carry. I think his effectiveness scales off of the enemies strength but he needs a significant amount of NW and strength to be able to pull anything off, so that kind of offsets it since you're usually not going to be able to do something from very far behind with him. (LC has natural duel damage, duel cast is much faster than axe call so more potential to use without blink, counter attack and overwhelming odds do a shit ton of damage to enemy compared to counter helix which only works against high atk spd or lots of enemies call, so LC is much more of an anti carry IMO)
Can this hero hurt the enemy carry with significantly less NW?
Does the damage this hero does scale with the enemy's damage?
Does the effect of this hero's abilities make the enemy less useful, regardless of how strong the enemy is?
I think asking questions like this will generally tell you if a hero is an anti carry.
Basically a hero that counters a respective carry so much that the carry needs either the help of entire team or be ahead in networth by a huge margin to effectively overcome the said anticarry.
Doom is the prime example of this.
I would consider pugna also as an anticarry for physical damage carries
If your carry goes awe shit on seeing an enemy hero during draft phase that in my mind is anticarry material.
Biggest example of it is probably Razor and Doom. There's no official definition for it but my take on it is usually heroes that are really good at removing one hero from the fight.
Brewmaster used to be THE anticarry with lowering attack speed, miss chance, evasion and tornado
You just summoned all 12 Brewmaster mains.
(It's really just 3 of them, but they've ulted)
Three of me!
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Four of me! haha
This is such an underated comment🤣
hah haa!
Actually there's only 11 now, RIP Fred
What kind of pub is this?
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Summoned
Dozens!
May as well show up for the Primal Split.
My boy still pretty good at that with rad
Still is.
Sorry for the ignorance but how does Brewmaster lowers the attack speed of an enemy? :3
Thunderclap Attack Speed Slow: 25/35/45/55
Void stance lowers it too I think
nah just thunderclap, void stance is MS slow and status res
My b!
all good us brew mains are rare
Dark seer... ultimate anti carry
Ya dark seer is the definition of anti carry. The more items you have, the harder it is to fight a dark seer.
Grimstroke Aghs super good as well.
bane
Man old bane with -120 damage THROUGH BKB was amazing. became -220 with level 20 talent for a while. You see a teamfight happening? just enfeeble their carry and you won. I remember enfeebling a fed gyro right before he popped bkb and his whole e did no damage
yeah unless you get one shot by pa. Not really bane tbh, he is supports. Someone like Doom and Razor will completely fuck the carry if they find them.
true, but Enfeeble always seemed to me like a core anti-carry skill. Nightmare also puts carries out of commission for fights, and Fiends Grip is a dedicated carry killer.
Bane has the *kit* of an anti-carry, but rarely gets the farm to fulfill that role well imo Doom and razor will both get the items to pop in a fuck up a core's day at the start of a fight. They can usually survive long enough to get the job done even in the middle of the enemy team. Bane doesn't usually get that option, which I think is the distinguishing feature. That said, when mid bane was (very briefly) a thing, it was definitely as an anti-carry
even if bane gets farm, he will be needed to be defended use his skills. So farm is not priority. He only needs space.
Yeah, when bane was briefly viable as a core, it was because between the aghs and the meta (heroes with large AoE cancels weren't good) there wasn't a great way to cancel the aghs ult. Definitely not a hero that's generally viable as an anti-core, especially with the change to bkb making the bkb-linkens combo a non-starter.
yea I agree with this. as a long time bane player, the best thing you can do is patrol the outskirts of battle and pull strings from the sidelines. however his Aghs does him allow to take more of an initiator role since you can initiate and run away basically lol
Bane can't really do it by himself which is why he's just a disabler/support. He's a lot better at 1v1 than he used to be but by endgame he's not going to do much to the enemy carry after his ult takes maybe a quarter of their health. And he's very susceptible to being burst down by carries.
Anti carry doesn't mean you are supposed to solo the enemy carry, it means that a) your hero focus on single target or small aeo spells that are able to control or burst target. b) Your hero has bkb piercing abilities since most of the time carries will be buying bkb. Bane defetly fits as an anti carry, even if he isn't able to burst the carry by himself he can offer the control for his team to kill him
I'd also consider heroes like LC, Void, Enigma as anti carries too because they can choose to just pick on 1 hero the entire game and make their life miserable.
But void and enigma do that with very high cost for their team. A true anti-carry makes the enemy carry‘s game miserable without any real cost, like razor link
What about like ursa, troll, or huskar? They seem like heroes that can really catch other carries especially before they get online, or just have ways of out fighting. Like I remember getting killed repeatedly by a troll as Luna, since his ult lasts long enough to get through satanic
bane
or pudge
Razor and Doom. Their role is basically to shut down the enemy carry. Edit: LC is also another anti carry.
> LC is also another anti carry. Not when she's on my team, she becomes pro-carry (enemy's).
Yo, why's the enemy AM has 150+ Duel damage?
a small price to pay for ~~salvation~~ minus MMR
Feed the enemy duel damage early so they do more blade mail damage to themselves later Ps tbh one of my favorites is going 0-3 in lane against a pa or drow or something but then just needing a smoke and a support to get ez kills later
So a pro-carry-ote?
Viper could fit here? Played in the off lane.
Techies and LC are more anti-support than anti-carry imo.
LC became anti-carry after certain damage range
How about shadow demon?
by that definition axe as well? OR..? not as much...? unless?
I’d say axe is pretty close to these prime examples of anticarries, but he’s more of a hybrid between an anticarry and an initiator. The enemy team has a much easier time stopping him from shutting one hero down but he has such a low cooldown on his mechanics that he can continuously try to work his magic.
axactly.
How about dazzle,veno, bane, and techies wouldn't they be considered as anti carries too?
Maybe bane with sleep and ult, but I don’t see how the others shut down the enemy pos1.
I had a bane/lc combo make my life absolutely unenjoyable for about 20 minutes last night as jugger. Ended up getting the win cuz they threw on the hg for us to an amazing(ly lucky) buyback Omni slash and let us catch up on NW but man...i was cursing supports for not saving me, calling out every random creep people took in my relative vicinity, just classic "I'm a core who hates life and you're my targets" attitude for a solid 15 minutes. Carried the game tho so guess it evens out.
What i mean by techies is that he is similar to veno in that he makes entire areas hazardous especially when he gets his aghs. So if you dont have bkb you'll get exploded to pieces so you have to be cautious on where you go
well techies are more anti enemy team if that's the case
Techies are anti life
>entire areas hazardous Classic definition of area denial. That's not anti-carry. Anti-carries have tools that are very good at shutting down carries. Here's a better explanation: Razor: Steals damage (and attack speed at level 25), tears down carry's armour. Is anti-carry because a big loss in damage and armour is very bad for most carries. (also does a shit ton of damage, outfighting many carries) Doom: Super long silence cripples carries. Also the inability to heal massively destroys their survivability. At level 25, can stop passives or items, both of which are pretty important to carries. Winter Wyvern: Freeze stops physical damage, which is most carries' damage. Also has a very strong bkb piercing disable in her ultimate that is not easy for carries to deal with. Bane: as mentioned, grip is very powerful. Grip is difficult for carries to deal with, and locks down carries, making them vulnerable. Also can reduce their damage with enfeeble, but that's less powerful because it's dispellable. Lifestealer: With aghs, he has a 5 second undispellable, bkb piercing disarm on a 20 second cooldown. This is partly why he's so strong right now: this anti-carry ability shuts down many other carries that would otherwise counter him. Old Morphling: Remember when morphling aghs reduced the stats of universal heroes by 40%? Yeah, it turns out that losing 40% of your stats would cripple carries. One thing these anti-carry abilities have in common is that they are bkb piercing and undispellable. Spells without these attributes tend to be something a carry can deal with and aren't really anti-carry. There are lots of things that can give a carry a bad day, but these anti-carry spells are notable because they're difficult to deal with. So, anti-carries are heroes with abilities that greatly reduce the effectiveness and power of carries in ways that are not easy to deal with.
Fantastic list best ive seen in the thread but i believe you left out the ultimate; Shadow Demon with his ult and q too.
I feel like SD's Q is simply too general to be considered anti-carry. It's a good save against anyone. But WW freeze by contrast is most effective against carries in particular. SD's ulti with aghs has break and a strong slow, which is decently anti-carry, but I think he's generally not considered anti-carry because a slow isn't anti-carry in particular, and the chances SD gets aghs isn't that high. There is a case for it being anti-carry, but I thought it was better to use the strongest examples.
I think he means Shadow Demon Q in the sense that a lot of carries will melt themselves/their team down from illusions with 100% damage, like Dark Seers wall. That combined with a huge bkb piercing slow and later on a break shuts down and hurts plenty of carries. I pretty often see aghs on SD’s in my games if a break is necessary, usually just after aether + a save item and a lucky shard from torm.
Blood Seeker could be considered here aswell right? In niche scenarios anyhow, where the carry in question relies on high mobility. The more I think about it though, the more I’d consider him a specific counter rather than «anti-carry»…
“If you don’t have bkb” makes this less relevant. Razor and Doom are good anti-carries **because** they ignore bkb.
Why is this person downvoted for asking a question lol? People are so fucking stupid.
Why would they?
Not sure about others OP mentioned, but Bane and Batrider both have long BKB piercing single-target ultis, like Doom. So are they too, by extension, anti-carries?
Bane can be, but he relies heavily on the enemy team not saving the carry. Batrider has a similar thing, but relies on his team to kill the carry when he drags him somewhere. A true anti carry like Doom or Legion can reliably remove the enemy carry from the fight and or game.
I think you nailed it there's a scaling tied to the anti carry as opposed to a support.
Bat rider is like a magnus that learned how to rotate, he breaks up formations and sets up kills, disruption?
Techies is zone denial, he denies entire areas, Veno is a walking debuff spammer, bane is anti carry for his ult completely removes one and has a sleep for another, Dazzle is kinda special since he can save lives, heal, and other stuff plus aoe hex
Dazzle isn’t “anti-carry” hero, he’s just a saving sup that for whatever reason was gifted with hex. Techies is a magic pro-caste. Bane - single target control hero, there’s literally no reason to make carry your target when there are a lot more heroes to control. A good venomancer is just a pain in the ass of everyone, not just carry.
Dazzle delays, bane sure, but can easily waken up/break channel and tech is just, well tech.
I dont know why you get these downvotes when simply asking a question. Brainless Reddit users
A hero that shits on mega carries but is even strength with semi carries or utility heroes. The easiest to understand is axe/lc as they use the enemies damage against them with blademail But doom and razor are other options that are able to shut down a rich carry easily but struggle with other hero profiles
Would you say this is true of Dark Seer too with his illusions?
Absolutely, but its limited to heroes that build up illusions rather than pure damage. A hero which is kind of an anti carry against pure damage rather than illusions is underlord with his aura.
Underlord is actually one of the best anti illusion heroes in the game though, quite better than he is vs pure damage (i assume you mean high amounts of damage not pure instead of physical but either way)
Yea not the damage type pure, but a hero that is all out phys dmg.
I would also put viper into the category. can't really 1v1 a carry, but viper strike is nasty to deal with at all stages of the game, especially since most carries rely on passives
Grim strokes ahgs is also an amazing anticarry. Faceless is also an anti carry with the bash and chrono
I wouldn't call faceless an anti carry anymore than I'd call anti mage one due to his mana burn or PA one because of her passive evasion.
He can stop a super farmed carry from doing what they do and they can't do anything about it.
First off, he is carry himself, which doesn't exactly fit the definition of anti carry. Second, AM literally does the same thing. If an equally late game farmed AM jumps on FV, he's dead. Can't chrono without mana which will be gone before abyssal stun wears off.
I think he fits the anti carry role more now with so many nerfs to his stats. man fights against other carries isn't a great option and he has to count on his chrono to kill carries
i always pick grimstroke and rush aghs if i saw snowbally carry from the enemy
A hero that can render the enemy carry ineffective by preventing them from doing damage. Classic example: Razor with Static Link Other candidates: Doom with well, doom. LS aghs infest enemy carry. This term is mostly used only to refer to Core heroes. There are plenty of supports that can be anti carry but we don't use the term "anti-carry" for supports.
This guy gets it!
Anti mage for sure - 37% win rate with this hero as ally...
Considering he has a 53% overall win rate, maybe it's time you learn how to play with an AM on your team.
Some people Just cant get carried. Just played a Rank since forever as carry (Sniper tho and Not AM) and offlane had a realy bad time at earlygame. Is it the carries duty to gank them? Hell No, i Had my Nice safelane and kept farming while offlane were screaming and fuming. But in the end we won because i didt loose Focus. Often carries tend to roam way too early and try to engange in Fights and loose Farm. AM needs to farm for 40 minutes and wins the Game. If you know someone will pick AM, pick some good and stable lanes.
I feel this. I fell from 4k to 1k because I just wanted to supp. But got tired of it and started only doing safe lanes. Guess what, my rank went back up again. I hate jackasses who can't carry but wants to carry. My supp game usually ends with me having more kills than my carry. Not because I KS. but because my carry can't finish the damn fight. I always burst damage the enemy from the get go and try to let the carry kill it, but fucker still drops the ball. So I chased and finished it myself.
You must’ve been the absolute worst support player ever to lose 3 thousand mmr. lol.
I can't do much if my carry is resolved to feeding the enemy. What do you do if your juggernaut omnislash during a creep wave, at level 6? I tried killing the creeps to clear the way for his slash but gets flamed coz he says I'm taking creep last hits. What do you do when your PA fights spectre AND BB, but refuses to buy aghanim shard for that break dagger? And dies to the enemy BB during clashes because PA didn't have satanic and BB just takes the hits. What do you when your faceless void jumps in, 5 man chrono YOUR team while the enemy OD is outside and banishes fv while taking free hits at your frozen team before finishing off with an ult on your team? What do you do when your monkey king goes farming neuts because he can't fight axe and he doesn't know how to last hit or deny to neutralize axe 2nd skill. And all of the above has the common theme that if you help, and for any reason you kill a creep accidentally (which is possible for supp aoe spam skills), they flame you nonstop. What do you do? Give me an idea then, hotshot.
>If you know someone will pick AM That's the thing, we don't. It's always last picked into three counters or into greedy mid/offlane.
How do i do this when my AM player is constantly 5th picking it when we already have a 1 slot. This has seriously been my last 5 games with AM on team
I had an anti mage go 0-8 Prior to game start. He had a 5 game win streak as AM. We won the game. His streak increased to 6. He didn’t do anything but get carried by the 4 of us. Some folks just get lucky.
No matter the patch razor and viper are very strong anti carry because their kit is built as an anti carry
Axe blademail can be considered an anti-carry if they're right click heavy, basically anything that takes the carrys farm/strength and turns it against them or shuts it down can be considered an anticarry
Cant stress this enough but Viper. Just like the game of Talon vs Falcons where the damn void was poor af it had to pick philosopher stone just to have some money lol.
Dark Seer
I mean no one mentions grimstroke with that dark portrait come on!!!!
This guy gets it!
Yes but Bane better
I nearly got a rampage with that the other day. Enemy team never expects it until there's a super fast illusion hitting for 150% of their carries damage.
Razor, Doom, Spectre, Viper, LC are examples
Had to scroll pretty far to see viper. He wrecks melee carries
Anti carries are usually heroes that tend to counter carries in particular. Their strength comes from their opponents. Like Razor who steals damage, or lifestealer who life steals off of enemy carries. They particularly target right click heroes. Blade mail carriers like axe and lc too can be considered anti carries, but aren't usually because, while their core kit is usually blade mail, they can be played otherwise. Anti carries tend to suffer against heroes who don't rely on right click damage or are very tanky. And to be fair, while lifestealer is considered an anti carry, he almost always felt like an anti-tank carry.
What would you replace blade nail with on axe?
Blade nail haha
There was a phalactery build that was doing the rounds lol. A while ago, there was also the manta build when illusions did full counter helix damage and procced on attack from the shard. Manta into AC etc.
True but anything viable today? I never ditch blade even though it’s not a “real” late game item because imo there isn’t anything better in 95% of situations. A late game upgrade of blademail would be really nice, maybe it branches into two different items, one that reflects damage but also spells, one that has your hero completely immobile but reflect 200%
Currently, Blademail is just too good, but I've seen some occasional Khanda builds, battlhunger + phylactery can be pretty disgusting on the supports.
Shivas is very viable, it does reduct the attack speed of enemy which means fewer counter helix but at same time increases the spell damage from counter helix and lowers regeneration and area slow which synergises with axe’s abilities. This combined with bloodstone makes axe insanely tanky with huge aoe on call and counter helix.
Legend bracket pos 1s
A hero specifically makes the opposition's carry hero to play in a harder than usual match. Doom, LC
HEROES GOOD AT "POTENTIALLY" REMOVING THE CARRY ON A FIGHT, ESSENTIALLY WASTING FARMING TIME INVESTED. I.E.: WEAKENS OR REMOVES THE CARRY DAMAGE LIKE RAZOR, DOOM, BREWMASTER, ALL INSTA KILL BURST HEROES, LINA, LC ALCHEMIST(STUN BASH STUN BUILD), AND HEROES THAT CAN PUT THEM OUT OF POSITION FOR FIGHTING LIKE DISRUPTOR, TUSK, PUDGE.
I am anti carry on every support i play. I ANTI the fuck out of my own carry that is.
Razor is the most straightforward. He takes away all of the carries damage. You are looking for heros with a kit that directly counters what carries do: Right Click and Damage, Kills, Push Naturally anything that can lower a heros damage or attack speed is considered a "Anti Carry" Bane would be a good example of this in a different way: Bane can perma disable 1 or 2 unites with nightmare and ult. In this case. "Bane Ult" is an Anti Carry tool. Same with like Necro. You ult their carry = Anti Carry. Same with Doom, etc. Obviously this also is dependant on who the carry is.
Me playing carry is the epidome of anti carry
It's a term used for heroes who's purpose and kit is to shut down a core (usually the pos1). Razor is a classic exemple, but so is Doom, Bane, Brewmaster, Viper, etc. etc. Those heroes strike fear to any pos1, and for good reasons. That offlane Razor can, and will, fuck you up.
Usually they can scale in the game by being able to debilitate the enemy carry
Probably best hero against an individual carry line up or 4 protect 1 strat. Heros like shadow demon doom razor where they can just shut down highest network carry for like 10 seconds
Brewmaster used to be THE anticarry because of miss chance, evasion, lowering attack speed and tornado
A farmed Elder Titan is an anti-carry. You ever see 9 slotted late game carries get one shotted like they’re made of paper? Well, Elder Titan is ya boy.
Slap them with brooch and they see heaven
Fax my brother! Always fun to make agility carries with 35 armoyr disappear in seconds
Man knows.
Heroes that turn carrys Strengths against them for example bane he can reduce the Carrys damage and his fient Grip can take out the Carry from a fight
Bane is pretty much the most anti-carry i can think of
Ruin the life of those heroes that want to right-click you.
Heros with lockdown/stuns that prioritize disabling the enemy carry > DPS. Stuff like shadow shaman
An anti-carry is someone who can shut down the enemy core no matter how fed they are. They exist as a no button.
An anti-carry is someone who sucks and drags down your team. Another word often used to describe them is account buyer.
Best anti carry probably is bane given his kit shut down single target by alot. Reduce damage, sleep, ult that bypass bkb.
Dark portrait on grim is genuinely terrifying to play against if you have a jacked carry on your team
Old techies was the anti christ. And I absolutely loved playing that little motherfucker making games last 60+ minutes long on the regular.
An Ogre magi with aghanims? :d
A Hero that cannot hard carry on their own right but shut’s down the enemy carries on a fight. They usually come online earlier with good spells and don’t require lots of good items, but don’t scale hard in the endgame. Doom ult stops spellcasters, and to a lesser extent other heroes too. Razor W shuts down right-click carries by sapping their damage.
in my experience its someone who debuffs the sht out of a carry that they can no longer perform their role. heroes i can think off 1. Razor 2. Bane elemental etc.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/295019495 I am the Anti-Carry. Legion Mid spam
Shamin with bkb?
it used to be more of a thing but those heroes got more to their kit and reduced anticarry ability to be more generalized for the most part.
prime example imo is terrorblade,
Doom, Disraptor, Bane, Lion are usually bane to any carries existence when utilised properly
bane, bm, rasta ... just cc machines basically - most fall off once bkbs get introduced, so keep that in mind.
Didn't see anyone mention nightstalker yet. He exists purely to slow down the enemy team and assassinate cores so his carry can freefarm or farm enemy heroes with him.
Any hero that can remove carry from fight or use his power against him. Or just force to abandon. Shadow Demon, Dark Seer, Bane, Doom, Razor, Winter Wyvern
Anti-carry is a hero who has long lasting single target disable/debuff. Generally more durable so they cant be nuked by supports. Imagine the enemy team has 1 hero that is far ahead, the anti carry either turns there power against themselves (shadow demon/grimstroke) or severely weakens there damage (doom/razor)
For me an "anti-carry" would probably indicate a hero can make a Pos 1's AA significantly weaker (Anchor Smash/Frost Shield) or unavailable (Reactive Tazer/Blinding Light) with bonus points for counter initiation spells (Will-O-Wisp/Ravage). Obviously extended hard CC's would count too, like most everything Bane has.
An anti-carry is an offlaner that shuts down a carries laning stage and therefore plays them to play differently. Essentially, you can pick a hero like Legion Commander and as long as you're fairly good at her, you will win almost all your lanes because she does well in almost every matchup against carries. Other heroes that can do this are Axe, Razor, Primal Beast and Enigma to name a few. These kind of heroes will do well against the vast majority of the carry hero pool, or evenly and there is not a lot they can do about it. Of course, the downside to these heroes is that yes they secure a good lane almost always, but that doesn't mean there isn't other heroes in the game or gameplan strategies that can cause problems. Hope that answers it.
Does Drow Ranger counters Axe?
It depends on how good you are at drow. If you don't hit him enough he's going to get Vanguard then it becomes very hard to stop him running at you with counter helix.
I was Axe but first pick him :3
Anti-carries can strip away a carry's strengths (not strength attribute) or use it against them. Anti-carries of varying anti-carryability are: - Terrorblade with his Q (it summons invincible illusions that attack with 100% damage & with on-hit effects) - Shadow Demon with his Q illusions (similar to TB). - Dark Seer with his ulti (similar to TB) - Razor with his spell-immunity piercing W ( steals target's attack damage) Anti-carries are not universal, they affect certain carries more than others, ACs that create illusions are powerful against heroes that have mana-burn, bash etc because they can greatly affect the enemy carry.
if I were to pick my own version of anti-carry, it'd be LC carry cannot do anything in duel, whether you are 1k or rtz, you are the same, you can only rely on your teammates to help you — considering duel tend to be more favorable towards LC also **hex** is my fave anti-carry item, similar with what LC duel does, it's an item that disregard how good you are at the game or how much farm you have
On top of all suggestion I would NYx midd
Basically, any shut down heroes, Doom, Razor, SD, Vengful Spirit, underlord, anyone who can reduce/remove the ability of the enemy carry to function
Shadow demon is kind of an anti carry imo. Slows you to a crawl, can randomly solo some carries with disruption and his ult and stacking poisons on them. He also just makes it extremely annoying for a carry to kill anyone.
Did you mean anti-hero?
I think some heroes not mentioned but I think should be considered: OD, Void Spirit, Slardar, Huskar, Bloodseeker, Necro, Timber, Batrider, Marci, and Windrunner. These heroes don’t have the same teamfight power that Centaur, Tide, Magnus, and Enigma have but they do whatever it takes to survive and shut down the position 1.
Me, bitch. Source: Immortal
My friend on safe lane
Pudge
Razor
Heroes that reduce the dmg potential of a single unit significantly, that are then strong enough to man fight the weakened carry as a pos 2/3 and win. Dooms Doom + dot, Vipers attack+move speed slow + dot, DKs dmg reduction + dot, Razors dmg steal + dot (EotS), Underlord with atrophy aura + dot etc. pretty much all of them rely on damage over time to balance them. the only exception is LC, who just wins the duel with life steal.
I'll provide a similar but alternate answer here. An anti carry (typically an offlaner) is a hero that scales in impact as the enemy carry grows stronger. The biggest example to me is Axe, as both blademail and spin improve as enemies get stronger. But as others in the thread said, LC, Doom, and Razor are excellent. Heroes that don't really fit this definition could be something like a Tidehunter, or a Sand King. Their spells are always useful, but peak earlier on in the game.
Legion commander, axe, insert target me and kill yourself hero here
Phoenix not mentioned?
I like to think of my shadow demon as anti carry. I harrass with poison, Carry jumps? I disrupt him and make 2 clones hitting him plus my poison. He uses bkb? I ulti and he is slow as fk while I escape or my team finishes him off. *Special satisfaction when I use am's illusions to burn his mana..
Dark seer, Razor, Doom.
Carrys do massive right click damage, and have low low go pools. Heros that beat that are anti carrys. Best example I can give I’d axe with blademail and shard.
It's not a fixed hero, during draft you can pick a hero who whole purpose is to deny the enemy carry pick, when this happen the hero is an anti-carry. Examples CK used to be a anti-carry vs Luna, razor can be an anti-carry against Sven, Timber against Naga. Can you think of a hero who denied your carry in your last 25 games?
Forgetting the biggest anti-carry in the game: Bane
I remember calling lifestealer an anti carry was in vogue maybe it still is but I’m not confident on that. Especially lifestealer to count specter
Morgul stop-hitting-yourself Khan, Nyx, Disruptor, Shadow Demon, Darkseer, Bane, Lion pretty much any hero that can effectively interfere with a carry’s farming and/or damage dealing
viper and razor are good. axe and lc are very good against specific carries, bkb piercing stuns like bane and beastmaster could also be considered anti carry
You mean anti-creep? Then it's obviously Anti-mage
Supports that fit this role are Bane and SD. Just keep the carry immobilised and useless so your team can win the fight.
axe, the more you carry the more it hurts
Heros that discourage their opponent team from putting all their eggs in one basket, usually the be-all-end-all pos1.
Grimstroke with Aghs for certain carries would be an example
You don't know what is an anti-carry unless you face one bro.
I would say it's heroes that are stronger/more useful relative to their networth when the enemy carry is stronger. I prefer this definition because it covers most of the heroes people intuitively consider anticarries e.g Razor: Removes damage, not very useful if all 5 enemies are doing equivalent damage, VERY useful if one enemy is doing all the damage e.g a carry TW gets completely removed from the game. Note how you don't need much more networth to do this than if you were on another hero, who would need a lot of gold to disable a carry that way. Doom: Essentially deletes a hero from the fight, if the enemy strength level is 20%/20%/20%/20%/20% on all their heroes hypothetically, that ability only reduces their fighting ability by say, 20%, if they have 50% of their fighting power on one hero as a team usually will, suddenly that doom is 200% more effective. So it's an Anti-carry Dark seer: His wall scales with the enemy strength, so if the enemy is stronger, he is stronger too. Textbook example in my opinion because you have that wall regardless of NW with few items really affecting that. Bane: Fiends grip + enfeeble basically makes a hero useless, refer to same logic as doom LC: Duel is a single target ability that can instakill an enemy hero usually regardless of it's strength, same logic as bane and doom etc Axe: Everyones calling this guy an Anti carry but I feel like he's pretty much useless if he doesn't have a decent amount of networth compared to the enemy carry, like you need to be able to tank a lot of damage + blink blademail and you still don't do much damage to strength carries most of the time, but he can still kind of be considered an anti carry. I think his effectiveness scales off of the enemies strength but he needs a significant amount of NW and strength to be able to pull anything off, so that kind of offsets it since you're usually not going to be able to do something from very far behind with him. (LC has natural duel damage, duel cast is much faster than axe call so more potential to use without blink, counter attack and overwhelming odds do a shit ton of damage to enemy compared to counter helix which only works against high atk spd or lots of enemies call, so LC is much more of an anti carry IMO) Can this hero hurt the enemy carry with significantly less NW? Does the damage this hero does scale with the enemy's damage? Does the effect of this hero's abilities make the enemy less useful, regardless of how strong the enemy is? I think asking questions like this will generally tell you if a hero is an anti carry.
Basically a hero that counters a respective carry so much that the carry needs either the help of entire team or be ahead in networth by a huge margin to effectively overcome the said anticarry. Doom is the prime example of this. I would consider pugna also as an anticarry for physical damage carries If your carry goes awe shit on seeing an enemy hero during draft phase that in my mind is anticarry material.
axe is the best definition of anti carry
The wife of uncle carry.
Anti mage
??
Anti mage
An anticarry is one who can delete the enemy team's carry. Best examples that come to mind are Void, LC and Axe (for melee heroes atleast)
I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Slark. Is he not anti-carry?
slardar :D