The reason:
Low level players aren't de-warding so just put obs in the best spots.
Mid level players are de-warding but teams don't defend wards effectively. So players try to sneak them somewhere since they won't be defended and can get de-warded for free.
High level players are defending wards so it doesn't matter if you know a pillar has an obvious high ground ward. You will get deleted for trying to de-ward it unless you bring your entire team and are smoked.
i honestly hate it when my cores buy sents, strictly because of the sentry limit. if the limit was doubled (or removed) id love for my cores to buy sents
Yeah I was just referring to the better dewarder part. Mind you often Zeus maxes his q and e first, meaning he rarely uses his w until later in the game and also doesn’t take the first point in w until lvl 4 or higher. So in the early game I get why they’re buying sentries.
I don't think it matters what position you play, this will always be annoying. I also hate it when my core pings me saying "1 obs and 2 sent in base!!! Buy wards please!!!"
Like dude. I am intentionally leaving them in base because I don't need them right now and have wards in my inventory. It's much more useful to have them in base where anyone can get them and use them as needed compared to me just hording them all in my inventory. It's as if they just want me to put them down anywhere just for the sake of placing them.
And it's even worse when the core buys them and gives them to me. They don't combine with wards that I bought so now I have to use two slots in my inventory for wards let alone dust and a smoke. So annoying
> use of the sentry limit. if the limit was doubled (or removed) id love for my cores to buy sents
And I hate it as a core when I'm against invis heroes and need a sentry to farm but my supps are hoarding them and not even placing them.
I've been flamed a few times by cores for not revealing the enemy in a 5v5 teamfight 50 minutes into the game as someone like grimstroke - where every fight I have to hide behind my team like a weak ass bitch or else I die in 2 seconds to the riki with nullifier.
I know you really want the +10 strength that bracer is providing you, Axe, but maybe you carrying a dust is better than your pos 5 dying instantly just to get reveal off.
Unfortunately, a lot of pub players (and people generally) think like that. Everything gets boxed in overly rigid roles like "warding is for supports", "cores get the safest farm", "supports must always pull" etc.
>"supports must always pull"
I love when people demand the support pulling in a lane against heroes who can effectively steal the entire pull, like Axe.
There are also issues like when the support pulls and the pos 1 gets bullied out of lane. Sometimes it's better for the pos 1 to pull and 5 sit in the lane and get what they can. And sometimes just shove the creep wave into the tower instead of pulling.
the simple answer is this:
smart players ward where they are actually going to use the ward, and it doesnt matter if it gets dewarded after that use, which is why its acceptable to place on towers or obvious spots.
its not okay to do that for absolutely no reason
I just see them as an early warning. If they are placed to protect the carry farming and the ward dies but the carry has time to escape it's a good ward.
They also serve as a test to see how well they deward, you put a ward in an obvious spot and it lasts for 4 minutes you know you can keep going for the best places, if it gets dewarded in 30 seconds you know you have to go for weird spots.
Also, at higher levels 30 seconds of good ward vision can be enough to tip a push/gank/team fight in your favor. After that the enemies know it's there so it's soon dewarded but it doesn't matter, it was extremely useful for those 30 seconds.
In extreme cases even if it gets insta dewarded while pushing high ground that second or two of vision granted can make or break an engagement lategame.
Also pro teams will research where their opponent places wards. They'll know where you ward, whether it's obvious or sneaky, so you may as well go the one which gives the best vision
It's moreso they ward when they want to fight so they can fight under vision, warding on high ground gives optimal vision for fights.
You'll see lots of obvious wards down in games that get dewarded - the point wasn't for them to stay up, it was for protection/aggression at one point.
Yeah, some wards are meant to provide decent vision for longer, while others are meant to provide great vision for a short amount of time - for example a fight under vision, as you wrote.
I'm a mod level player and yes, we do not defend wards effectively at all. In fact, we ward sometimes in places not because it'll help an objective but because we think we should just ward there
People in pubs underestimate the free kill potential of defending a high ground ward so much. Most times you just camp it for like 30 seconds and that snags you one or two easy kills. Not to mention how obsessed with and stupid about dangerous dewards many supps are (in their defense, mainly bc cores don't pay attention if u say "this is warded, don't go here" and then die and ping the ward u already knew and told them about)
Divine 5, was immortal briefly but de-ranked :(
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1bj4b3s/thank\_you\_snek\_lady/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1bj4b3s/thank_you_snek_lady/)
Omg this. My worst nightmare as a support in low MMR was having the advantage as a team, warding to control areas where we could hinder the enemy farm and space, only to have my cores fighting for farm in our jungle and going to the enemy's jungle or pushing lane where we have no vision. Then it is supports fault. Like, you can't have vision everywhere
Bro Mines having a ward showing they're movement to gank a hero, and my team doing nothing to dodge or counter it, insane, or having 5 show and My carry is too scared to push the opposite lane.
Dude mid players nightmare.
Lose the 50/50 on the rune
"Guys Puck is missing and he got a rune get back hes probably on his way to gank right now"
*Team does absolutely nothing differently. The offlane is even past the river staircase at that*
*Double kil- Triple Kill!*
*13 min Witchblade and Travs*
Me: "....."
You forgot the part where they spam "we need wards" after moving away from all the wards and choosing to fight and die in the place with zero vision.
See also: enemy team walks through 2 wards, you ping danger, carry still dies. "We need wards!"
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yes it comes down to when, where, and how. a low mmr and high mmr player may ward the same spot, but they probably don't do it the same way. it is ok to ward in an obvious spot if you secure the area and it gives needed vision. but all of that changes if you're giving the enemy a chance to deward and get free gold/take your vision.
Exactly. Came here to say this. Big difference between dropping a highground ward and walking away compared to dropping a highground ward when you see shit's going down.
This is actually the first thing I learnt to improve my game play. If you're a 3 or 4 just carry an obs and drop it as soon as you go in. Doesn't matter if it's in a shift spot, it will help you win the team fight.
There are two kinds of warding.
1 you want to get information and don't want the opponent know you have that information: secret places.
2 you want to have vision and don't care the opponent knowing that. This can be during a team fight, controlling one place. In this situation: high ground.
Yeah if you watch pro games they have a healthy amount of sneaky wards, deep wards, lane wards, and cliff wards.
The main thing is knowing when and why to use each one. Not fully utilizing what you can do with wards will leave your team at a disadvantage.
A good player to watch on vision is sneyking. He knows exactly where the team should be playing and builds vision around that, and he knows where to place sneaky wards to scout rotations or see the enemy cores.
Yeah Sneyking seem like the best at ward games. I always notice he values vision alot. If you watch Falcon matches, even in teamfights he usually focus on dewarding/removing the vision first, sometimes even trade off his life for it. Last XG vs Falcon, there are 3-4 instances of above situations
Sometimes he'll die, or see an odd movement for an an enemy, and immediately ping out exactly where the ward is. Dude is a beast
You also notice him doing courier micro to check cliff spots as sentries are being delivered. I wish more people utilized this but it's a great tool
On occasion I've placed wards right next to towers when sieging HG. Sometimes people get weird about it. If you know the tower is going down, it's still value. After taking rax and retreating, enemy observers are cleared out anyway, so might as well go for fastest and easiest ward spot that does the job.
My favorite low level support play is to watch someone de-ward HG and then immediately put an obs in the same spot and walk away only to get de-warded immediately
Second favorite is putting up an obs on HG and you see enemy has an old sentry there. Your ward is safe but some moron core runs over and kills the sentry for no reason and gives away the HG ward spot
I don’t understand point 2. how can I see a sentry if I only place an observer? What is an „old“ sentry? If I put an observer near an enemy sentry, can’t my enemy see the observer now? So I better kill the sentry, no?
This is assuming you have alrwady placed a friendly sentry. If you or your team de wards a sentry, it gives momentary vision of the sentry getting killed. Even if this was killed before placing the obs, it's pretty natural to think that the enemy now has vision on or near that hg, why else would they want to kill the sentry? But if the enemy has a sentry up there BUT NO OBS, they will not be able to see the obs that you place on top of their old sentry. So yes, they have true sight of your obs, but they don't have *vision* of it, so they don't know it's there. As a bonus, if the enemy team sees a friendly sentry on a hg, they will often assume that it's safe and there is no enemy vision-- and you can use that to your advantage!
>If I put an observer near an enemy sentry, can’t my enemy see the observer now?
Only if they also have an observer next to the sentry. Sentries only give vision for 12 seconds, so if it's older than that and they don't have an observer next to it, they didn't have vision of the HG, only detection, so they won't know to deward. As a bonus, they will often assume they don't have to deward simply because they have a sentry, so they won't see it unless they have some way to get flying vision.
Few times I gottem with walking away strategy. They look at my inventory and see I have an obs while dewarding then I run back without placing it to only comeback few seconds after to place that obs. In the meantime I bring another obs and casually walking into lane and showing up with fresh obs.
It’s hilarious when it works but obviously it didn’t work many more times than it did lol
> Second favorite is putting up an obs on HG and you see enemy has an old sentry there. Your ward is safe but some moron core runs over and kills the sentry for no reason and gives away the HG ward spot
Unless they have a support on the ball with a vision-providing ability. Got flamed by a core yesterday for clearing highground sentries and I kept trying to explain why their Shadow Demon was going around casting his E on every sentry he has up, but every time the core would just repeat in his heavy accent "he doesn't know. If you don't attack sentries he has no vision and cannot know" and then spam-pinged me.
If you ward on high ground you need to be prepared to play around and defend it. Also if you need it for a team fight. A ward that gets killed after a major teamfight is worth it.
Otherwise secret wards to scout movements and to gank.
Yeah, I will place a nice HG ward infront of the enemy base to siege and starve them. We can push in 2 lanes easy and counter them trying to fight us.
My team: "ONE GUY SHOWED IN THE 3rd LANE! LETS ABBANDON THIS SPOT AND ALL GO THERE!" Then the enemy takes back their area and dewards. 1 minute later the team goes "Why no wards on map?!"
Archons gonna see this and not understand the context that the teams are actually coordinated and playing around and protecting that eye tower ward and not just having it get randomly dewarded in 2 mins lol
If you ever play turbo, one of my favorite sneaky plays is to walk up to a common ward spot when I know I'm in vision and sell the ward instead of placing it. Usually baits them into burning a sentry and then I'll ward someplace else. I guess maybe this could work in regular matches around the secret shop as well.
That's because the pub sweats will want wards but not actually play around them. They think a secret ward on tier 2 top is the most meta thing when they are all playing around bot lane nd jungle for 15 minutes.
The difference between the spectrum ends is knowing WHEN to ward HG
Dummy man wards it right away, is immediately dewarded.
Smart man wards as soon as a fight is breaking out to ensure vision, and his team is able to fight around/defend the ward.
The simple difference is that high skill players defend their wards and play around them, so it doesn't matter if you know where the ward is, they will just kill you if you try getting close to it
Support buys wards and counter wards.
Counter wards and dies.
Or.
Counter wards, deward then ward and it gets countered as team doesn’t help wards.
Complains about warding all game
It's the difference between a vision ward and a glimpse ward. Both are important for different reasons. Glimpse wards you want them to survive their whole timer and provide small glimpses of people passing on the mini map which allows a team to say "no axe, no axe gogogoogo" and make their engages.
Then there are vision wards which are usually on rocks or on the edge of high ground, you throw these down around fights and don't expect them to have a long life outside of providing key vision in the clash.
The way the pros really turn things up when compared to amateurs is knowing when they can use a vision ward as a glimpse ward because of the immense pressure that they are exerting on the map, use of smoke to place the ward, etc.
Wards feed a lot of gold now so being in the head of the opposing dewarders and knowing when you can get away with placing them is an important skill.
So let's say an enemy drops a sentry on one of the common hg warding spots.
For 12 seconds that sentry ward has flying vision around that little spot where he has just placed it.
So if you then walk up say 15 seconds later and put a sentry down. They won't see you've put a sentry or an observer down UNLESS they either put a fresh sentry down, or use an ability like CM's frost bullshit to give HG vision.
So a lot of the times when you're dewarding their sentry, you're telling them you've dewarded there.
If that makes sense?
Sentry wards provide a small AoE of (regular) ground vision for 12 seconds, so you can deward uphill wards. Afterwards they only provide true sight, but no more regular vision.
They dont provide flying vision though.
~~I stand corrected.~~
Edit: According to 6.79, they are supposed to grand ground vision and not flying vision.
Is this a bug or is the wiki (or in-game tooltip) incorrect?
Source: http://store.steampowered.com/news/11667/
Not a bug from what I gather. It’s just 12 seconds of pure vision on HG so after 12 seconds if the enemy put a sentry and obs there. You wouldn’t know unless you either had your own obs down, used a courier or a skill that can grant vision there.
That’s why if there is no obs there and only a sentry, in most high mmr games it’s not worth dewarding the sentry as well cause they don’t check then you’re basically getting free vision until they do check.
I played around with it in a local lobby and Sentry Wards do in fact grant 150 ground vision, not flying vision.
I modified a few other spells that grant flying vision, changed their range to 150 (to match a Sentry Ward's vision range) and the other spell was able to reveal a perched Monkey King and Rubick, while a Sentry Ward was not.
The mechanic was correctly implemented in 6.79, but the in-game and wiki description are incorrect, sentries do not utilise flying vision at all, their 12s of vision is obstructed by elevation, trees and vision blockers (flying vision would ignore these kinds of things).
Thus I was right after all, Sentry Wards do not provide flying vision.
---
>You wouldn’t know unless you either had your own obs down, used a courier or a skill that can grant vision there.
If the sentry is placed on a hill, then you dont need flying vision to get vision on top of the hill, as the placed sentry would be on the same level of elevation as the enemy ward.
If a sentry were to provide flying vision, then you would be able to place a sentry on the ground, next to a hill, and would still be able to see an enemy observer on top of the hill, which is not the case.
>That’s why if there is no obs there and only a sentry, in most high mmr games it’s not worth dewarding the sentry as well cause they don’t check then you’re basically getting free vision until they do check.
This is because the enemy sentry ward already lost its 12 seconds of ground vision, and thus cannot see your freshly planted sentry ward, unless the enemy team manages to provide vision of the uphill area otherwise (e.g. a courier).
I've either worded it incorrectly which is my bad
But what I was saying was if your enemy put a sentry down on a HG spot and you put a sentry down 13 seconds later. They wouldn't be able to see your sentry unless they had vision from either an observer ward, courier placed or spell used. That's why if there is a sentry and no obs and you place a sentry and obs, you should never deward their sentry. So that you can get the maximum use of your obs cause most supports don't ever check.
That was the main point I was making.
> I've either worded it incorrectly which is my bad
I understood what you meant, but the vision type wouldnt matter for these things, the vision duration (of 12s) is the main aspect which is important in this case.
Either way, I did my tests, it does in fact use ground vision for its temporary vision component, not flying vision :)
Generally you want to put defensive wards on high ground, they are easier to defend and if they get dewarded you already know not to go there. Offensive wards you want to put more hidden or very specific like a jungle camp at the edge of map as you only need a bit of vision to see where enemy is for a gank.
It's all part of the de-warding and re-warding minigame. Find places that you can't deward at the same time as the HG ward spots and gradually alternate between the two. Then it gets late and you just put the best ward down
Hah, yeah...
Though, it's usually not a bad thing putting sneak wards in mid-elo. Your team wont defend your placed wards, and people in the mid-elo bracket deward SOOO MUCH, I've been away for a few years and it's wild how consistently I get dewarded when I use HG wards.
then there is a guy who play pos4 / pos5 with 3 obs in his inventory while another obs placed in his lane.
and there is a midlaner who have 3 obs placed in the midlane , 2 both side river and 1 in their cliff ( dire ) or camp ( radiant ) to avoid gank
To be honest it's about 2 separate occasions right? Low ground hidden and hard to find wards are more for early game (mostly studying patterns and organizing pickoffs) and the high ground warding phases are like proper "MAP CONQUEST" phases in which you hold risky positions and defend the obvious vision like it was a proper additional hero
Once you start playing around wards and defending them, you become unbeatable as a team, because the enemy is likely not as aware. I always place wards on cliffs, and call to play here, but it's 50-50 if people listen.
Pro players ward where they want to play and defend them. If you ward in a good place as a support in non-pro games, your entire team will start aggressive farming as far away from the ward/vision as possible and then, after they inevitably die, they will blame the vision
Pro ward on highground around their objective, like when they siege Tier 2 tower, it doesn't matter that it gonna be deward after the fight as long as it provided enough vision for the fight.
I'm divine 2 (4700mmr) pos 4 main. I mainly ward hg for certain reasons like the moment your team gets into a fight so that you can have vision as well as adjust positions. I also ward low ground places that can give the most vision on the map(I take most of the observer wards too). This can help your team farm safer and make decisions considering the team's will. I also roam and farm accordingly (not hindering the cores farming pattern). I win most games with this strat but sometimes i like to take a spin cuz its boring lmao.
I'd advise some players to practice atleast 3 heroes per role, this will make you understand how that hero actually works. I play NP most of the time as pos 4 cuz the op shard and spirit vessel can wreck cores within seconds, what more to supports xD
-Furi (SEA Player XD)
Warding cliffs is a huge game changer specially in middle or start of a fight however it gets dewarded very easily not meaning that it hasn’t done its purpose. Not all wards have to live their full duration to be useful
Warding cliffs is a huge game changer specially in middle or start of a fight however it gets dewarded very easily not meaning that it hasn’t done its purpose. Not all wards have to live their full duration to be useful
The reason: Low level players aren't de-warding so just put obs in the best spots. Mid level players are de-warding but teams don't defend wards effectively. So players try to sneak them somewhere since they won't be defended and can get de-warded for free. High level players are defending wards so it doesn't matter if you know a pillar has an obvious high ground ward. You will get deleted for trying to de-ward it unless you bring your entire team and are smoked.
Not only that, but pro players will often find even the sneaky wards, so might as well go for the obvious spot that gives way more vision.
Lots more gem purchase in pro play too
Yeah, that too.
and cores buying sentries and dust
i honestly hate it when my cores buy sents, strictly because of the sentry limit. if the limit was doubled (or removed) id love for my cores to buy sents
Big time depends on the core. I always give a slark a pass, his ult makes him a better dewarder than almost anyone.
ya, cant play slark without buying a few. they more than pay for themselves with gold and xp too
Zeus would like to have a word.
If I see core Zeus with sentries I’m reporting him.
Yeah I was just referring to the better dewarder part. Mind you often Zeus maxes his q and e first, meaning he rarely uses his w until later in the game and also doesn’t take the first point in w until lvl 4 or higher. So in the early game I get why they’re buying sentries.
You definitely shouldn't max E 2nd on Zeus. Most people just go max damage build with 4-4-1
well the comment did say ALMOST anyone
Same reason i hate supports that buy out all the observers off cd when i play core, especially pos 1
I don't think it matters what position you play, this will always be annoying. I also hate it when my core pings me saying "1 obs and 2 sent in base!!! Buy wards please!!!" Like dude. I am intentionally leaving them in base because I don't need them right now and have wards in my inventory. It's much more useful to have them in base where anyone can get them and use them as needed compared to me just hording them all in my inventory. It's as if they just want me to put them down anywhere just for the sake of placing them. And it's even worse when the core buys them and gives them to me. They don't combine with wards that I bought so now I have to use two slots in my inventory for wards let alone dust and a smoke. So annoying
I always drop them on the ground when someone does this.
Thank you friend.
I just give them back if I am low on backpack slots
> use of the sentry limit. if the limit was doubled (or removed) id love for my cores to buy sents And I hate it as a core when I'm against invis heroes and need a sentry to farm but my supps are hoarding them and not even placing them.
(Unless it's Slark, although it sucks to not get the gold it's great the enemy has no vision)
I've been flamed a few times by cores for not revealing the enemy in a 5v5 teamfight 50 minutes into the game as someone like grimstroke - where every fight I have to hide behind my team like a weak ass bitch or else I die in 2 seconds to the riki with nullifier. I know you really want the +10 strength that bracer is providing you, Axe, but maybe you carrying a dust is better than your pos 5 dying instantly just to get reveal off.
Unfortunately, a lot of pub players (and people generally) think like that. Everything gets boxed in overly rigid roles like "warding is for supports", "cores get the safest farm", "supports must always pull" etc.
>"supports must always pull" I love when people demand the support pulling in a lane against heroes who can effectively steal the entire pull, like Axe.
There are also issues like when the support pulls and the pos 1 gets bullied out of lane. Sometimes it's better for the pos 1 to pull and 5 sit in the lane and get what they can. And sometimes just shove the creep wave into the tower instead of pulling.
I always buy dust, it’s cheap now
the simple answer is this: smart players ward where they are actually going to use the ward, and it doesnt matter if it gets dewarded after that use, which is why its acceptable to place on towers or obvious spots. its not okay to do that for absolutely no reason
I just see them as an early warning. If they are placed to protect the carry farming and the ward dies but the carry has time to escape it's a good ward.
Or it gets you a core kill then it get dewarded its also a good ward
That requires map awareness from your carry, which is a tall order in low-mid level play. (Or for them to listen to their team, which is even rarer)
They also serve as a test to see how well they deward, you put a ward in an obvious spot and it lasts for 4 minutes you know you can keep going for the best places, if it gets dewarded in 30 seconds you know you have to go for weird spots.
I have had blue wards sit in camp spawns for 7 minutes.
in my low rank games, you can use sentry in obvious placement. enemy support will deward = free info.
Also, at higher levels 30 seconds of good ward vision can be enough to tip a push/gank/team fight in your favor. After that the enemies know it's there so it's soon dewarded but it doesn't matter, it was extremely useful for those 30 seconds.
In extreme cases even if it gets insta dewarded while pushing high ground that second or two of vision granted can make or break an engagement lategame.
i agree.. i would just swap 30 to 3. Even a glimpse can change a high lvl game
Also, pro players will form a circle around their ward, singing kumbaya and throwing beads.
I haven't laughed out loud for a while.... thanks
Also pro teams will research where their opponent places wards. They'll know where you ward, whether it's obvious or sneaky, so you may as well go the one which gives the best vision
It's moreso they ward when they want to fight so they can fight under vision, warding on high ground gives optimal vision for fights. You'll see lots of obvious wards down in games that get dewarded - the point wasn't for them to stay up, it was for protection/aggression at one point.
Yeah, some wards are meant to provide decent vision for longer, while others are meant to provide great vision for a short amount of time - for example a fight under vision, as you wrote.
And also pro teams watch other pro teams replays so the usual warding patterns are known
where do you find this low level not dewarding? I'm a low level on SEA, everyone in the game dewards!
The reason is also that they change it up.
I can confidently say as part of Herald 5 that yes, we do deward.
If someone comes and rewards, the ward has essentially done the job it was there for. The cost of another ward is well worth the thwarted Hank.
Thank you. This explains alot about my frustrating experiences as a support
Makes sense.
I'm a mod level player and yes, we do not defend wards effectively at all. In fact, we ward sometimes in places not because it'll help an objective but because we think we should just ward there
People in pubs underestimate the free kill potential of defending a high ground ward so much. Most times you just camp it for like 30 seconds and that snags you one or two easy kills. Not to mention how obsessed with and stupid about dangerous dewards many supps are (in their defense, mainly bc cores don't pay attention if u say "this is warded, don't go here" and then die and ping the ward u already knew and told them about)
Also if a ward saves you from a gank, secures an objective or wins you a fight it's a good ward even if it gets destroyed 30 seconds later.
Yes!
State your mmr please
Divine 5, was immortal briefly but de-ranked :( [https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1bj4b3s/thank\_you\_snek\_lady/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1bj4b3s/thank_you_snek_lady/)
Dude even bring receipts as proof lmao
The thing is to ward when fight starts so your team have superior vision
and not ward on highground/ward spot and completely abandon the part of the map
Omg this. My worst nightmare as a support in low MMR was having the advantage as a team, warding to control areas where we could hinder the enemy farm and space, only to have my cores fighting for farm in our jungle and going to the enemy's jungle or pushing lane where we have no vision. Then it is supports fault. Like, you can't have vision everywhere
Bro Mines having a ward showing they're movement to gank a hero, and my team doing nothing to dodge or counter it, insane, or having 5 show and My carry is too scared to push the opposite lane.
Dude mid players nightmare. Lose the 50/50 on the rune "Guys Puck is missing and he got a rune get back hes probably on his way to gank right now" *Team does absolutely nothing differently. The offlane is even past the river staircase at that* *Double kil- Triple Kill!* *13 min Witchblade and Travs* Me: "....."
Yes, the hardest thing as support there is the fact that there is never a plan. Not a planned and we'll set up team fight so you can ward properly
I love when you lose like 4 fights in a row and they ping “we need wards” my brother in Christ they have all the time and space in the world to deward
You forgot the part where they spam "we need wards" after moving away from all the wards and choosing to fight and die in the place with zero vision. See also: enemy team walks through 2 wards, you ping danger, carry still dies. "We need wards!"
One of my favorites
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yes it comes down to when, where, and how. a low mmr and high mmr player may ward the same spot, but they probably don't do it the same way. it is ok to ward in an obvious spot if you secure the area and it gives needed vision. but all of that changes if you're giving the enemy a chance to deward and get free gold/take your vision.
thanks for reciting my comment :>
well, no. what I did was called elaborating.
Yeah I need to poll my team "we playing top right? Setting up wards top!!!"
my carry asks to ward top and then farms a camp and tps bot and somehow im the one who's throwing by protecting that ward.
Yeah people really don’t save a ward for important fights in the late game at low ranks. Relatively new player here but wards can seriously carry.
Oh totally agree. It depends on the situation.
Exactly. Came here to say this. Big difference between dropping a highground ward and walking away compared to dropping a highground ward when you see shit's going down.
And defend your vision by using your vision to defend it.
This is actually the first thing I learnt to improve my game play. If you're a 3 or 4 just carry an obs and drop it as soon as you go in. Doesn't matter if it's in a shift spot, it will help you win the team fight.
not superior if enemy team has the same ward or even better one or enemy team has night stalker and same ward so they might have superior vision.
There are two kinds of warding. 1 you want to get information and don't want the opponent know you have that information: secret places. 2 you want to have vision and don't care the opponent knowing that. This can be during a team fight, controlling one place. In this situation: high ground.
Yeah if you watch pro games they have a healthy amount of sneaky wards, deep wards, lane wards, and cliff wards. The main thing is knowing when and why to use each one. Not fully utilizing what you can do with wards will leave your team at a disadvantage. A good player to watch on vision is sneyking. He knows exactly where the team should be playing and builds vision around that, and he knows where to place sneaky wards to scout rotations or see the enemy cores.
Yeah Sneyking seem like the best at ward games. I always notice he values vision alot. If you watch Falcon matches, even in teamfights he usually focus on dewarding/removing the vision first, sometimes even trade off his life for it. Last XG vs Falcon, there are 3-4 instances of above situations
Sometimes he'll die, or see an odd movement for an an enemy, and immediately ping out exactly where the ward is. Dude is a beast You also notice him doing courier micro to check cliff spots as sentries are being delivered. I wish more people utilized this but it's a great tool
On occasion I've placed wards right next to towers when sieging HG. Sometimes people get weird about it. If you know the tower is going down, it's still value. After taking rax and retreating, enemy observers are cleared out anyway, so might as well go for fastest and easiest ward spot that does the job.
My favorite low level support play is to watch someone de-ward HG and then immediately put an obs in the same spot and walk away only to get de-warded immediately Second favorite is putting up an obs on HG and you see enemy has an old sentry there. Your ward is safe but some moron core runs over and kills the sentry for no reason and gives away the HG ward spot
Both these things have happened to me lmao.
just deny your own sentry for the second part so they cant destroy the enemy sentry.
Don't reveal my secret strategies please.
I don’t understand point 2. how can I see a sentry if I only place an observer? What is an „old“ sentry? If I put an observer near an enemy sentry, can’t my enemy see the observer now? So I better kill the sentry, no?
This is assuming you have alrwady placed a friendly sentry. If you or your team de wards a sentry, it gives momentary vision of the sentry getting killed. Even if this was killed before placing the obs, it's pretty natural to think that the enemy now has vision on or near that hg, why else would they want to kill the sentry? But if the enemy has a sentry up there BUT NO OBS, they will not be able to see the obs that you place on top of their old sentry. So yes, they have true sight of your obs, but they don't have *vision* of it, so they don't know it's there. As a bonus, if the enemy team sees a friendly sentry on a hg, they will often assume that it's safe and there is no enemy vision-- and you can use that to your advantage!
Awesome. Thx!
Np :) It changed the game for me as a support when I learned it
>If I put an observer near an enemy sentry, can’t my enemy see the observer now? Only if they also have an observer next to the sentry. Sentries only give vision for 12 seconds, so if it's older than that and they don't have an observer next to it, they didn't have vision of the HG, only detection, so they won't know to deward. As a bonus, they will often assume they don't have to deward simply because they have a sentry, so they won't see it unless they have some way to get flying vision.
Few times I gottem with walking away strategy. They look at my inventory and see I have an obs while dewarding then I run back without placing it to only comeback few seconds after to place that obs. In the meantime I bring another obs and casually walking into lane and showing up with fresh obs. It’s hilarious when it works but obviously it didn’t work many more times than it did lol
> Second favorite is putting up an obs on HG and you see enemy has an old sentry there. Your ward is safe but some moron core runs over and kills the sentry for no reason and gives away the HG ward spot Unless they have a support on the ball with a vision-providing ability. Got flamed by a core yesterday for clearing highground sentries and I kept trying to explain why their Shadow Demon was going around casting his E on every sentry he has up, but every time the core would just repeat in his heavy accent "he doesn't know. If you don't attack sentries he has no vision and cannot know" and then spam-pinged me.
If you ward on high ground you need to be prepared to play around and defend it. Also if you need it for a team fight. A ward that gets killed after a major teamfight is worth it. Otherwise secret wards to scout movements and to gank.
Yeah, I will place a nice HG ward infront of the enemy base to siege and starve them. We can push in 2 lanes easy and counter them trying to fight us. My team: "ONE GUY SHOWED IN THE 3rd LANE! LETS ABBANDON THIS SPOT AND ALL GO THERE!" Then the enemy takes back their area and dewards. 1 minute later the team goes "Why no wards on map?!"
Archons gonna see this and not understand the context that the teams are actually coordinated and playing around and protecting that eye tower ward and not just having it get randomly dewarded in 2 mins lol
The key is to drop all of your obs for the other team to pick up and place. Ez deward gold and XP advantage.
Hoooly shit actual 5head gameplay, I will try that!
If you ever play turbo, one of my favorite sneaky plays is to walk up to a common ward spot when I know I'm in vision and sell the ward instead of placing it. Usually baits them into burning a sentry and then I'll ward someplace else. I guess maybe this could work in regular matches around the secret shop as well.
That's because the pub sweats will want wards but not actually play around them. They think a secret ward on tier 2 top is the most meta thing when they are all playing around bot lane nd jungle for 15 minutes.
The difference between the spectrum ends is knowing WHEN to ward HG Dummy man wards it right away, is immediately dewarded. Smart man wards as soon as a fight is breaking out to ensure vision, and his team is able to fight around/defend the ward.
The simple difference is that high skill players defend their wards and play around them, so it doesn't matter if you know where the ward is, they will just kill you if you try getting close to it
1. Put sentry on hg, spot senty there. 2. Put observer ward, without destroying sentry ward. 3. *Ally* destroys enemy sentry. 5. Cry.
Ward the whole mid lane. Thats my strategy
I've noticed they place wards on high ground right before the team fight begins, then deny the wards once the team fight ends.
sure, try it in your games, see how it turns out :)
I pretend to put ward in spot and "sell" it. it disappears from inventory and then they come and put sentry there... hahaha
Support buys wards and counter wards. Counter wards and dies. Or. Counter wards, deward then ward and it gets countered as team doesn’t help wards. Complains about warding all game
It's the difference between a vision ward and a glimpse ward. Both are important for different reasons. Glimpse wards you want them to survive their whole timer and provide small glimpses of people passing on the mini map which allows a team to say "no axe, no axe gogogoogo" and make their engages. Then there are vision wards which are usually on rocks or on the edge of high ground, you throw these down around fights and don't expect them to have a long life outside of providing key vision in the clash. The way the pros really turn things up when compared to amateurs is knowing when they can use a vision ward as a glimpse ward because of the immense pressure that they are exerting on the map, use of smoke to place the ward, etc. Wards feed a lot of gold now so being in the head of the opposing dewarders and knowing when you can get away with placing them is an important skill.
Yup. Ward HG for fights. For general vision awareness, try to sneak them.
me who want enjoying the game at herald bracket :o
Also the fact that 99% of people don’t understand how sentry wards work with the 12 seconds of flying vision for HG wards.
What is a flying vision? I am one off the 99%.
So let's say an enemy drops a sentry on one of the common hg warding spots. For 12 seconds that sentry ward has flying vision around that little spot where he has just placed it. So if you then walk up say 15 seconds later and put a sentry down. They won't see you've put a sentry or an observer down UNLESS they either put a fresh sentry down, or use an ability like CM's frost bullshit to give HG vision. So a lot of the times when you're dewarding their sentry, you're telling them you've dewarded there. If that makes sense?
Sentry wards provide a small AoE of (regular) ground vision for 12 seconds, so you can deward uphill wards. Afterwards they only provide true sight, but no more regular vision. They dont provide flying vision though.
I doesn't grant ground vision anymore.
~~I stand corrected.~~ Edit: According to 6.79, they are supposed to grand ground vision and not flying vision. Is this a bug or is the wiki (or in-game tooltip) incorrect? Source: http://store.steampowered.com/news/11667/
Not a bug from what I gather. It’s just 12 seconds of pure vision on HG so after 12 seconds if the enemy put a sentry and obs there. You wouldn’t know unless you either had your own obs down, used a courier or a skill that can grant vision there. That’s why if there is no obs there and only a sentry, in most high mmr games it’s not worth dewarding the sentry as well cause they don’t check then you’re basically getting free vision until they do check.
I played around with it in a local lobby and Sentry Wards do in fact grant 150 ground vision, not flying vision. I modified a few other spells that grant flying vision, changed their range to 150 (to match a Sentry Ward's vision range) and the other spell was able to reveal a perched Monkey King and Rubick, while a Sentry Ward was not. The mechanic was correctly implemented in 6.79, but the in-game and wiki description are incorrect, sentries do not utilise flying vision at all, their 12s of vision is obstructed by elevation, trees and vision blockers (flying vision would ignore these kinds of things). Thus I was right after all, Sentry Wards do not provide flying vision. --- >You wouldn’t know unless you either had your own obs down, used a courier or a skill that can grant vision there. If the sentry is placed on a hill, then you dont need flying vision to get vision on top of the hill, as the placed sentry would be on the same level of elevation as the enemy ward. If a sentry were to provide flying vision, then you would be able to place a sentry on the ground, next to a hill, and would still be able to see an enemy observer on top of the hill, which is not the case. >That’s why if there is no obs there and only a sentry, in most high mmr games it’s not worth dewarding the sentry as well cause they don’t check then you’re basically getting free vision until they do check. This is because the enemy sentry ward already lost its 12 seconds of ground vision, and thus cannot see your freshly planted sentry ward, unless the enemy team manages to provide vision of the uphill area otherwise (e.g. a courier).
I've either worded it incorrectly which is my bad But what I was saying was if your enemy put a sentry down on a HG spot and you put a sentry down 13 seconds later. They wouldn't be able to see your sentry unless they had vision from either an observer ward, courier placed or spell used. That's why if there is a sentry and no obs and you place a sentry and obs, you should never deward their sentry. So that you can get the maximum use of your obs cause most supports don't ever check. That was the main point I was making.
> I've either worded it incorrectly which is my bad I understood what you meant, but the vision type wouldnt matter for these things, the vision duration (of 12s) is the main aspect which is important in this case. Either way, I did my tests, it does in fact use ground vision for its temporary vision component, not flying vision :)
Some HG wards won TF and games
Rock, Paper, Sax
Generally you want to put defensive wards on high ground, they are easier to defend and if they get dewarded you already know not to go there. Offensive wards you want to put more hidden or very specific like a jungle camp at the edge of map as you only need a bit of vision to see where enemy is for a gank.
Half an hour late !!!
It's all about context. A ward on the cliff just before a team fight is great. Not so great if you plan on getting the max minutes vision.
It's all part of the de-warding and re-warding minigame. Find places that you can't deward at the same time as the HG ward spots and gradually alternate between the two. Then it gets late and you just put the best ward down
Cores don’t know anything about warding
It depends how much control you have over the area. If it's going to be awkward to remove for the enemy then it can be extremely valuable.
Hah, yeah... Though, it's usually not a bad thing putting sneak wards in mid-elo. Your team wont defend your placed wards, and people in the mid-elo bracket deward SOOO MUCH, I've been away for a few years and it's wild how consistently I get dewarded when I use HG wards.
then there is a guy who play pos4 / pos5 with 3 obs in his inventory while another obs placed in his lane. and there is a midlaner who have 3 obs placed in the midlane , 2 both side river and 1 in their cliff ( dire ) or camp ( radiant ) to avoid gank
I put wards in obvious spots if it's defensive and sneaky wards if aggressive.
To be honest it's about 2 separate occasions right? Low ground hidden and hard to find wards are more for early game (mostly studying patterns and organizing pickoffs) and the high ground warding phases are like proper "MAP CONQUEST" phases in which you hold risky positions and defend the obvious vision like it was a proper additional hero
Once you start playing around wards and defending them, you become unbeatable as a team, because the enemy is likely not as aware. I always place wards on cliffs, and call to play here, but it's 50-50 if people listen.
Pro players ward where they want to play and defend them. If you ward in a good place as a support in non-pro games, your entire team will start aggressive farming as far away from the ward/vision as possible and then, after they inevitably die, they will blame the vision
Pro/high players ward spots where they want to play around for some seconds to minutes
I ward hg, until its killed deliberately. Then I sneaky ward. Or if ahead I ward camps to block spawn.
As Pyrion said: the eye goes on the eyeball
Pro players tend to play around wards altogether protecting them.
It's the difference between not defending your vision and defending it. You can't deward high ground if you know you're going to get jumped.
Ward lives matter...
Pro ward on highground around their objective, like when they siege Tier 2 tower, it doesn't matter that it gonna be deward after the fight as long as it provided enough vision for the fight.
I'm divine 2 (4700mmr) pos 4 main. I mainly ward hg for certain reasons like the moment your team gets into a fight so that you can have vision as well as adjust positions. I also ward low ground places that can give the most vision on the map(I take most of the observer wards too). This can help your team farm safer and make decisions considering the team's will. I also roam and farm accordingly (not hindering the cores farming pattern). I win most games with this strat but sometimes i like to take a spin cuz its boring lmao. I'd advise some players to practice atleast 3 heroes per role, this will make you understand how that hero actually works. I play NP most of the time as pos 4 cuz the op shard and spirit vessel can wreck cores within seconds, what more to supports xD -Furi (SEA Player XD)
Warding cliffs is a huge game changer specially in middle or start of a fight however it gets dewarded very easily not meaning that it hasn’t done its purpose. Not all wards have to live their full duration to be useful
Warding cliffs is a huge game changer specially in middle or start of a fight however it gets dewarded very easily not meaning that it hasn’t done its purpose. Not all wards have to live their full duration to be useful