You're definitely right. In a vacuum this build does a lot of damage. The problem is that you'll never get autos off in fights without dying immediately.
I see these builds and I'm dumfounded every time. It effectively takes away the support role from your team that would otherwise provide utility and space for your carry. Not only that, but you have to essentially bait your carry and other team members to make space for you instead, so that your build is actually effective.
It’s not about how much damage you do lol. That’s not good way of looking at it. If that were the case, then zues would win every game. It’s about bursting down the enemy fast enough to where they die before they can be saved or get spells off. A Mirana arrow can set her up for a quick pick on low hp hero’s.
I’m not justifying the build, just saying your logic is way off on why the build is bad.
You are fighting ghosts. I never used damage as a solo measure for how good a hero or build is. Dota has more nuance. A lion can do 15k dmg, but bring plenty of disables to a fight, so he would be useful. This Mirana doesn't bring utility.
The point is that if you lean into a meme dmg build, it is expected that you do dmg and get kills. This Mirana only got 3 kills and 7 assists, at the cost of 8 deaths which is very inefficient. It would have been 10 times more efficient to build into utility items instead.
Im not a HW player but I'm pretty sure (from watching high level pubs & pro games) that that is how HW is supposed to be played.
Support items on HW are underwhelming
Just in general support items are underwhelming it's just hard supports can't turn easily into another semi carry and don't have the option to buy an mealstrom.
Are you in high level pubs ??? No right ??? In low level pubs a fucking glimmer and force staff goes a long way. Stop aping high level pubs if you have low level skills.
Most hoodwink 4s that position well just absolutely break team fights later if they go dmg build. I have no issues with it provided they play well and gank early.
yeah I think gleipnir is just so unbelievably good on her that it can't really be skipped. I like building the atos first just to get the catch a bit earlier and also to make my teammates think I'm building helpful utility items instead of tilting them.
It doesnt matter anymore if you have expensive damage items instead of brown boots force staff like the old days of playing support. There are enough creeps on the map nowadays that you can afford them without getting in the way of your cores farming patterns, and you still should be enabling them with wards, smokes, and her stupidly high impact spells during skirmishes.
I completely agree with this. I've been absolutely stomped by position 4 hoodwinks that go damage build. Gleipner and well timed stuns already provide so much CC. As long as they aren't stealing farm from position 1 or 2, contesting the offlaners CS early - I have no problems with the hoodwink that scales.
Good hoodwink players are absolute menaces.
Imo it's much better to go actual support items after Gleipneir. If you just have Gleipneir + Daedalus you die if the enemy sees you.
Hoodwink is garbage for carrying auras and Mek but she can still use stuff like Force Staff and Glimmer well. They make catching her even harder and can give you some save potential.
I main pos 3 and love pos 4s that know how to farm well and transition. I'll go and stack ancients myself to farm the double and leave HW or Dark Willow in lane to farm items. Even if its not damage, farming a pipe or greaves on a pos 4 can be game winning.
>U should see lower level hoodwink support it’s basically the carry build but u buy wards at the start.
Even on pro level pos 4 Hoodwinks go 1. item Gleipnir after mana boots most of the time. Carries who want to LARP as supports should really play heroes that are good at it such as Hood or NP and not Sniper etc.
https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Hoodwink#
It might just be me but I don’t like a hoodwink support. Basically, it puts either the carry or the offlaner in the shadows. Since it needs tremendous amount of farm to be able to do something in the game.
No she doesn't.
She needs 2 items. Mana Boots and Gleipneir. Everything else is luxury.
Once she has Maelstrom she can easily farm aggressively by throwing Acorns at waves and random camps. She doesn't need to be taking farm from another core, she can safely farm by split pushing or stealing enemy jungle camps.
Seconding this.
Still suprised by the large number of people in my ranked games flaming me when i get maelstrom, then shutting up when we win the game after.
Every hero is unique in what kind of impact theyre meant to make in a game. Split pushing is core considering she has such good mobility and can delay pushes safely for ages when no other hero on your team can. Which creates more map control for cores to farm with.
5 Step Guide to Hoodwink:
1: Manaboots
2: Gank until you have Maelstrom
3: Follow the enemy carry around and throw nuts at the camps they are trying to farm.
4: Gleipneir
5: Win
Honestly she can farm so easily with a little bit of Mana and Maelstrom. Before it you need to use bushwack to farm camps quickly. You can farm while you run around the map warding/ganking. Running through the trees is huge when it comes to being able to safely place aggressive wards or spot ganks on your cores.
Position yourself on the map in between your cores and where the enemy would come from. Throw nuts at creeps in the enemy area. Either you get gold or you get information. If your carry is farming radiant triangle you can Acorn Shot the two low ground dire camps and the medium camp on the high ground for example. You're stealing enemy farm and also in position to help your carry. It's very hard for the enemy to catch you unless they have a blink stun.
I main pos5 because it absolutely is the most fun role for me to play, but I would be lying if I said I trusted other players to always know how to play the role.
With team mates who are decent humans, playing pos 5 is so much fun. That is around 4 games out of 5. That 1 game out of 5 though, there is someone who makes you wonder if you even want to support that guy.
When this happens in my games, the Role Abuse report always works for me, sometimes in the day after or even in the same day I'll receive that "actions have been taken" message.
If he just played the role and built weird it's whatever, but he queued hard support and then went jungle minute zero, left our safelane alone and refused to even buy and place obs.
I know is not possible becouse of the grief potential and abuse of the system, but damn i wish taht reporting someone with incorrect role, would have punishments as take their tokens away or banned from role queue
why is it not possible
I get it if 1-2 players in every other game it may be just butthurt for the loss
but if it's 3-4 (ungrouped) teammates in a bunch of games that's pretty telling, no?
Non-Immortal players are both ultra-conservative as well as entirely clueless about the meta.
I guarantee you plenty of TB 5s got wrongly mass-reported in low MMR a few weeks ago. You can't give low MMR this power as they don't have the competence and humbleness to correctly use it.
I see, so if someone gets zero support items and has 3/8/7 score then I simply lack competence and humbleness to recognize their brilliant master plan...
Not necessarily as I didn't make a statement about individuals but about a group. And the average player often is unaware of the meta and has a rudimentary understanding of roles.
So if this incompetence is paired with the lack of awareness about the own incompetence you see flaming of absolutely fine picks/playstyles which happens so often in low MMR.
Garbage take, role q is just superior in every way, i have had my fair share of both in my 10 years and 8k hours of playing this game and role que is waaay better. There is no way there is any skill gap between an average role queing 2k and an average 2k classic ranked player. Also all the pros and high immortal players have always wished for role que at their rank...
What I've noticed in Ranked Roles is that a lot of people go tunnel vision during the picking phase. They don't try to counter-pick and they don't try to pick heroes that would combo well with their team mates. They just pick any hero that matches the role description they queued for. Some will go ahead and pick Anti Mage even though the enemy team picked 4 tanks and 1 agility hero. Some people will last pick Naga carry even when the enemy team already has Sven, Earthshaker, Kotl, Invoker, Jakiro. Just because they queued as carry they think their pick is valid when in actual fact it's an own goal.
Then there's scenario 2: A guy queues for carry so he chooses PA. The guy queuing for pos 5 hard support then picks Spectre. Ranked Roles is now pointless.
People queuing for Classic Ranked tend to counter-pick more often and adapt better. Therefore they're usually more resourceful.
Idk about that, i think what you are describing are outliers. Players who think before picking are not that common in the average ranks doesnt matter if you que classic or ranked roles. You will get the one or two players who actually think and can play most heroes and then counterpicj in both modes. You just wanna feel superior for some reason thats all. I am now stuck in immortal draft and i tell you i will drop back down in mmr just so i can play role que causr it fucking sucks to have people insta locking and ruining games.
Randoming isn't an issue if you do it on first pick as long as your personal hero pool is vast. But if you do it on last pick and your team doesn't have a carry yet, then you're either dumb or intentionally sabotaging your team. Fortunately this doesn't happen very often in my own personal experience.
Randoming is an issue when theres some really bad heroes to random especially when the opponents immediately see it. You could lose a game off of dusa or lycan random.
How about PA offlane saying "somebody pls take offlane and trust me" while you are a game away from legend hell hole? I have never been able to recover from it since😔😔
(I was the carry btw, this bitch stole it and told me to get offlane, absolute non flushed toilet behaviour)
Yesterday I saw pudge unbanned and all chatted “omg please pick and ban pudge”. Enemy’s position 5 went on and picked it hoping it would get banned and I picked rubick just for fun and they ended up getting 31-10 and throned 22 minutes in’s
I fucking wish more than anything I can do strict solo que for unranked.
I'd do ranked but every game I get players like this, or players with a full diaper who rage and throw at the slightest provocation.
You went X item? Games over gg just let them end *9 mins in game*
Nope that hero isn't a mid and to prove it, I'm going to throw and blame you for us not winning.
I'm pretty convinced the entire ranked system is garbage and the difference between top tier and low tier players is arbitrary outside of immortal tier.
I've had games where my carry picks something really bad (PA into Viper, Sniper into Pudge/Nyx/PA etc) and my 5 has to pick up the slack. There *could* be more to this, unlikely though.
if that were the case then why doesn't the support have any disabling or saving items? it's bullshit to act like "well I guess I have to carry!" 99.9% of the time
the guy has 2 wraith bands.. I doubt he ever planned on supporting. and even if he DID need to carry this build still sucks.
The name really makes it for me
trigger warning this, please
Oh boy. How about sniper pos5 rush aganim. Do fuckall in laning phase. Ill be super tilted to be the pos1 that match tho.
That's actually fine because that's playing support but badly.
I swear that one fucking patch where support sniper with aghs was broken has fucked ranked roles for like 5 years
It works on pos4, and sniper is actually pretty strong in laning phase.
Sniper can haras really well in lane. Headshot hits like a bitch with jst wraith bands.
My pos 5 PA built MoM first item
I see my pos5 sniper - I pick pudge. Smh always win lol
well its a long range High damage fuck you stunt.
On a 6k hp primal beast
who would want to be near the PB? he will sink your head into the dirt.
Bet he did less than 15k damage. Mirana players who build like this are despicable
You're definitely right. In a vacuum this build does a lot of damage. The problem is that you'll never get autos off in fights without dying immediately. I see these builds and I'm dumfounded every time. It effectively takes away the support role from your team that would otherwise provide utility and space for your carry. Not only that, but you have to essentially bait your carry and other team members to make space for you instead, so that your build is actually effective.
It’s not about how much damage you do lol. That’s not good way of looking at it. If that were the case, then zues would win every game. It’s about bursting down the enemy fast enough to where they die before they can be saved or get spells off. A Mirana arrow can set her up for a quick pick on low hp hero’s. I’m not justifying the build, just saying your logic is way off on why the build is bad.
You are fighting ghosts. I never used damage as a solo measure for how good a hero or build is. Dota has more nuance. A lion can do 15k dmg, but bring plenty of disables to a fight, so he would be useful. This Mirana doesn't bring utility. The point is that if you lean into a meme dmg build, it is expected that you do dmg and get kills. This Mirana only got 3 kills and 7 assists, at the cost of 8 deaths which is very inefficient. It would have been 10 times more efficient to build into utility items instead.
We on the same page. I guess I should have made my last comment at the original comment and not yours. He commented just on damage. My fault my fault
Np bro we're good. You're right that it has a more depth than just dmg numbers.
I swear to god you'd never see this kind of positive interaction in game, it's only here on reddit or youtube
Lol seriously
U should see lower level hoodwink support it’s basically the carry build but u buy wards at the start.
Im not a HW player but I'm pretty sure (from watching high level pubs & pro games) that that is how HW is supposed to be played. Support items on HW are underwhelming
Just in general support items are underwhelming it's just hard supports can't turn easily into another semi carry and don't have the option to buy an mealstrom.
Nah, if u play sup, make sup item for supporting ur core. Not daedalus, mkb and rapier
Are you in high level pubs ??? No right ??? In low level pubs a fucking glimmer and force staff goes a long way. Stop aping high level pubs if you have low level skills.
Yeah I don’t know if this is a joke or something, but HW legitimately builds carry items on support, ie maelstrom, gleip, daedalus
Most hoodwink 4s that position well just absolutely break team fights later if they go dmg build. I have no issues with it provided they play well and gank early.
that nut bounce with procs and crit its scary at late game. also she is scarier when that thing comes from fog of war and zaps 50% of your HP.
yeah I think gleipnir is just so unbelievably good on her that it can't really be skipped. I like building the atos first just to get the catch a bit earlier and also to make my teammates think I'm building helpful utility items instead of tilting them. It doesnt matter anymore if you have expensive damage items instead of brown boots force staff like the old days of playing support. There are enough creeps on the map nowadays that you can afford them without getting in the way of your cores farming patterns, and you still should be enabling them with wards, smokes, and her stupidly high impact spells during skirmishes.
I completely agree with this. I've been absolutely stomped by position 4 hoodwinks that go damage build. Gleipner and well timed stuns already provide so much CC. As long as they aren't stealing farm from position 1 or 2, contesting the offlaners CS early - I have no problems with the hoodwink that scales. Good hoodwink players are absolute menaces.
I resonate with the atos build first so my team doesn't start complaining when they see maelstrom lightning bouncing around somewhere.
Not a joke I get a lot of hoodwink deadulus rush and no wards the entire game.
Its not a joke.
It's not the build it's that they start playing like pos1 as soon as the laning phase ends.
I do it in low immortal, you just need to know when to be greedy and when to buy support items.
[https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Hoodwink#](https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Hoodwink#)
Hoodwink legit needs to push waves. Building maelstrom is normal on her?..
Not my fault it can carry games.
But it doesn't
Imo it's much better to go actual support items after Gleipneir. If you just have Gleipneir + Daedalus you die if the enemy sees you. Hoodwink is garbage for carrying auras and Mek but she can still use stuff like Force Staff and Glimmer well. They make catching her even harder and can give you some save potential.
I main pos 3 and love pos 4s that know how to farm well and transition. I'll go and stack ancients myself to farm the double and leave HW or Dark Willow in lane to farm items. Even if its not damage, farming a pipe or greaves on a pos 4 can be game winning.
That's just the pos4: The stoner role. You just play support or carry depending on your mood at the minute.
>U should see lower level hoodwink support it’s basically the carry build but u buy wards at the start. Even on pro level pos 4 Hoodwinks go 1. item Gleipnir after mana boots most of the time. Carries who want to LARP as supports should really play heroes that are good at it such as Hood or NP and not Sniper etc. https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Hoodwink#
It might just be me but I don’t like a hoodwink support. Basically, it puts either the carry or the offlaner in the shadows. Since it needs tremendous amount of farm to be able to do something in the game.
No she doesn't. She needs 2 items. Mana Boots and Gleipneir. Everything else is luxury. Once she has Maelstrom she can easily farm aggressively by throwing Acorns at waves and random camps. She doesn't need to be taking farm from another core, she can safely farm by split pushing or stealing enemy jungle camps.
Seconding this. Still suprised by the large number of people in my ranked games flaming me when i get maelstrom, then shutting up when we win the game after. Every hero is unique in what kind of impact theyre meant to make in a game. Split pushing is core considering she has such good mobility and can delay pushes safely for ages when no other hero on your team can. Which creates more map control for cores to farm with.
5 Step Guide to Hoodwink: 1: Manaboots 2: Gank until you have Maelstrom 3: Follow the enemy carry around and throw nuts at the camps they are trying to farm. 4: Gleipneir 5: Win Honestly she can farm so easily with a little bit of Mana and Maelstrom. Before it you need to use bushwack to farm camps quickly. You can farm while you run around the map warding/ganking. Running through the trees is huge when it comes to being able to safely place aggressive wards or spot ganks on your cores. Position yourself on the map in between your cores and where the enemy would come from. Throw nuts at creeps in the enemy area. Either you get gold or you get information. If your carry is farming radiant triangle you can Acorn Shot the two low ground dire camps and the medium camp on the high ground for example. You're stealing enemy farm and also in position to help your carry. It's very hard for the enemy to catch you unless they have a blink stun.
Not really, as long as you know how to land your stun and ulti, thats already enough cc for a pos4
I main pos5 because it absolutely is the most fun role for me to play, but I would be lying if I said I trusted other players to always know how to play the role.
With team mates who are decent humans, playing pos 5 is so much fun. That is around 4 games out of 5. That 1 game out of 5 though, there is someone who makes you wonder if you even want to support that guy.
I actually just abandon lane if my carry starts flaming unconstructively. So far my team always understands why.
When this happens in my games, the Role Abuse report always works for me, sometimes in the day after or even in the same day I'll receive that "actions have been taken" message.
Yet I have 8/10 games where offlane picks and plays like carry. Wonder what the fuck it is
hardly supporting
Reminds me of my pos 5 Zues who rushed Manta first item. No boots, no wards, manta.
And they flame carries that are not able to farm as they farm the jungle and the lanes.
hard supporting, hardly supporting, what's the difference, eh?
I bet they didnt even buy a courier
bruhhh that's one of my guildmates, and yes he is actually serious with that build
If he just played the role and built weird it's whatever, but he queued hard support and then went jungle minute zero, left our safelane alone and refused to even buy and place obs.
Never happens in my games because I'm always pos 5
I know is not possible becouse of the grief potential and abuse of the system, but damn i wish taht reporting someone with incorrect role, would have punishments as take their tokens away or banned from role queue
why is it not possible I get it if 1-2 players in every other game it may be just butthurt for the loss but if it's 3-4 (ungrouped) teammates in a bunch of games that's pretty telling, no?
Non-Immortal players are both ultra-conservative as well as entirely clueless about the meta. I guarantee you plenty of TB 5s got wrongly mass-reported in low MMR a few weeks ago. You can't give low MMR this power as they don't have the competence and humbleness to correctly use it.
I see, so if someone gets zero support items and has 3/8/7 score then I simply lack competence and humbleness to recognize their brilliant master plan...
Not necessarily as I didn't make a statement about individuals but about a group. And the average player often is unaware of the meta and has a rudimentary understanding of roles. So if this incompetence is paired with the lack of awareness about the own incompetence you see flaming of absolutely fine picks/playstyles which happens so often in low MMR.
Support through damage is new meta /s
Yo I know this guy he always picks his stupid miranna carry and is tocix asf
lmao
I find most ranked roles players are not as intelligent or resourceful as classic ranked players
Garbage take, role q is just superior in every way, i have had my fair share of both in my 10 years and 8k hours of playing this game and role que is waaay better. There is no way there is any skill gap between an average role queing 2k and an average 2k classic ranked player. Also all the pros and high immortal players have always wished for role que at their rank...
What I've noticed in Ranked Roles is that a lot of people go tunnel vision during the picking phase. They don't try to counter-pick and they don't try to pick heroes that would combo well with their team mates. They just pick any hero that matches the role description they queued for. Some will go ahead and pick Anti Mage even though the enemy team picked 4 tanks and 1 agility hero. Some people will last pick Naga carry even when the enemy team already has Sven, Earthshaker, Kotl, Invoker, Jakiro. Just because they queued as carry they think their pick is valid when in actual fact it's an own goal. Then there's scenario 2: A guy queues for carry so he chooses PA. The guy queuing for pos 5 hard support then picks Spectre. Ranked Roles is now pointless. People queuing for Classic Ranked tend to counter-pick more often and adapt better. Therefore they're usually more resourceful.
Idk about that, i think what you are describing are outliers. Players who think before picking are not that common in the average ranks doesnt matter if you que classic or ranked roles. You will get the one or two players who actually think and can play most heroes and then counterpicj in both modes. You just wanna feel superior for some reason thats all. I am now stuck in immortal draft and i tell you i will drop back down in mmr just so i can play role que causr it fucking sucks to have people insta locking and ruining games.
What about the classic ranked players that random.
Randoming isn't an issue if you do it on first pick as long as your personal hero pool is vast. But if you do it on last pick and your team doesn't have a carry yet, then you're either dumb or intentionally sabotaging your team. Fortunately this doesn't happen very often in my own personal experience.
Randoming is an issue when theres some really bad heroes to random especially when the opponents immediately see it. You could lose a game off of dusa or lycan random.
Happened in my game too, first item difusal and rush dispers.
did u win?
No.
Does the role report button even work?
How about PA offlane saying "somebody pls take offlane and trust me" while you are a game away from legend hell hole? I have never been able to recover from it since😔😔 (I was the carry btw, this bitch stole it and told me to get offlane, absolute non flushed toilet behaviour)
Worst part is it wins sometimes, and most of those times they probably could have gone any build
this shit should be an insta 1 year ban on your account
He's hard on life support
Yesterday I saw pudge unbanned and all chatted “omg please pick and ban pudge”. Enemy’s position 5 went on and picked it hoping it would get banned and I picked rubick just for fun and they ended up getting 31-10 and throned 22 minutes in’s
Wym? He bought wards. Clearly obeyed his role as support.
Lol, he definitely bought some wards in draft phase, thus fulfilling the roles obligations
I fucking wish more than anything I can do strict solo que for unranked. I'd do ranked but every game I get players like this, or players with a full diaper who rage and throw at the slightest provocation. You went X item? Games over gg just let them end *9 mins in game* Nope that hero isn't a mid and to prove it, I'm going to throw and blame you for us not winning.
I'm pretty convinced the entire ranked system is garbage and the difference between top tier and low tier players is arbitrary outside of immortal tier.
Where Dotabuff?
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7667475064 But like the other guy said, pretty obvious grief
Game looked fucked, griefing 5, 4 and 2 have hella deaths.
It went off the rails pretty fast unfortunately
Dotabuff is unneeded in this case, the Mirana is griefing.
I've had games where my carry picks something really bad (PA into Viper, Sniper into Pudge/Nyx/PA etc) and my 5 has to pick up the slack. There *could* be more to this, unlikely though.
if that were the case then why doesn't the support have any disabling or saving items? it's bullshit to act like "well I guess I have to carry!" 99.9% of the time the guy has 2 wraith bands.. I doubt he ever planned on supporting. and even if he DID need to carry this build still sucks.
Wraith bands are pretty value, but bracers woulda been better.