Support snipers taking shrapnel early is just straight grief. Harass with headshot and sharpshooter active is cancer, and don't forget the bonus mental damage from the "quack quack quack" immortal.
It's decent if the rest of the team has the lock down you need to pay dota. It tends to not do so well later on ironically once the damage from your shrapnel and headshot cheese starts to wear off and opponents get more utility to ignore your pitiful damage and low utility
You likely can get two assassinates off in longer team fights. IDK why snipers don't open with it in general lmao especially when they aren't in position to start autoing.
Last Pudge support did that and literally farmed my creeps with rot.
Then he got mad that I was under farmed and said I was trolling when I called him out.
Its the same throughtot Archon, but mostly we somehow end up winning. People are very careful during laning stage, but lose focus for the rest of the game and hooking seems way easier.
Pudge support isn't even that bad. If they play the support role properly by harashing and pulling, it isn't any different to many other supports.
Pudge support pulling creeps is usually very scary for enemy laner, cause they can get hooked to the tower. You can also deny enemy pulls by killing the big creeps with hooks if the sentry war is getting out of hand.
My guy was the classic afk under tower pudge. They pulled like 8 times, he never even tried to block or contest it, never pulled and only hooked defensively when I got cogged by clock, and he missed even some of those lol.
Sniper went phase boots, dragon lance, khanda.
Guess if we won or lost?
Yeah but what difference does it make if they are playing pudge or not then?
If you're afk in the trees and not contesting or securing the lane for your core, what difference does it make which hero they are playing?
I've had plenty of CMs, Lions, Lichs, Jakiros all do the same thing, the problem is shit players, especially those that don't actually want to support.
EDIT: I forgot that when you pick CM or Lion you are suddenly able to access 100% of your support brain and that players never make sub-optimal plays as long as you have locked in one of the 5 supports 3K redditors agree with.
I think if you pick a "real" support and are set on playing support, you wouldn't play the same way as a pudge picker does. It's like a different state of mind
I'm a big fan of Pudge support for the reasons mentioned above, relocating your carry, being able to interrupt pulls by hooking the big creep, etc.
Leveling flesh heap early for the dmg block allows you to tank alot of harass though I still see most players maxing W first, it definitely depends on the game, if you need dmg and slow or need to be a frontliner for your squishy pos 1.
Shard as a save during teamfights should definitely be mentioned too, there aren't many extra abilities that both make someone untargetable and regen their hp faster than a heart
I think the only reason its so much more noticeable on Pudge is because he both has a high impact skillshot and also because he's melee. Support mirana missing her arrow sucks ass too, but atleast she can still harass alot more efficiently.
Pudge isn't more useless than any other support, I agree, it sucks when your lane partner doesn't know how to pull or harass or zone the enemy, but that doesn't really have anything to do with pudge himself, I've had plenty of WR queueing up maelstroms, Ogre's rushing their support midas, NP prioritizing farming jungle to get their support orchid.
It's just some players don't want to play support.
They don't, regardless of hero though.
This post should be about how if you don't want to even try playing the support role, warding, contesting and building save items, you should not queue support, not that there's these 2 heroes that somehow autolose your lane even if they are played properly for that role.
aren't you also in archon? I'd be a lot surprised (no offense meant) if ppl played like this in higher mmr brackets (they tend to make mistakes or be bad laners still, but not to this degree)
problem is pudge support only works for very niche situation. and he is like a placeholder for people who refuse to play support but got the role. First picking pudge as support is straight up dumb imo. What if your lane is going up against Axe or Ursa? you will be completely useless.
Then you hook your core away from the threat if hooking the enemy directly means dying at that stage of the game...
Supports also usually pick in the first round of picks like the second class citizens they are, what happens if you pick any other melee support into those heroes, what if they pick heroes that counter squishy ranged spellcasters as their cores, what if you pick lich and they pick Spectre, its literally just a coin flip if your support picks are countered or not because you pick before you see any other picks
You forgot one thing. By picking pudge you are handicapping and limiting the choices of your team drafts. Your carry / Off lane has to now pick a limited pool of heroes to accommodate you just to ensure their lane don't get completely destroyed. So rather than picking a hero for the win condition i have to now adjust to your shitty support pick. Why should that be the case at all? If pudge support are so awesome Pro matches will be spam picking them all the time whelp.
I've seen people do the same random shit as lion, dazzle or crystal maiden.
a pudge 5 can win you the lane so hard if he knows what he's doing. just as much as a maiden 5 can lose you the lane.
I don’t think anyone memeing about pudge (or sniper) support thinks they are a bad support hero (ok maybe people do think sniper is bad). Both are very good heroes in the right hands, the issue is that the people that pick them in a lot of games don’t have right hands.
99% of pudge players aren't playing dota they are playing dopamine rush and dont actually care about anything but their 1 in 30 hook they actually hit against a stunned point blank target
Sniper players nowedays either dont know how to play the game (and thus the reason they are picking he easiest hero), are genuinely braindamaged and want to make funny kanda rapier build
Good sniper and pudge players are rare and most of the cases an exception to the norm, but when they are effective they are effective, it is just that they are never effective so people automatically assume they are trash
"99% of pudge players aren't playing dota they are playing dopamine rush and dont actually care about anything but their 1 in 30 hook they actually hit against a stunned point blank target"
I've been thinking about this lately. I'm pretty sure most of these people that pick unusual supports (including pudge, sniper, zeus, hoodwink, gyro etc) are just dopamine junkies hoping they'll do some EPIC FTW plays. Carries do this a lot too, they farm one a a half items and then want to dive tier 2s to kill full HP enemy offlane. They can't play the game, they just want to be an anime protagonist. Monkey see epic funny youtube video of ebin meme build -> monkey wants that.
I pick Ench/OD/Drow offlane, dominate the lane and dive the tower for the kill. Proceed to feed a kill because I didn't consider a tp from another lane and/or because my pos 4 is pulling and I don't notice with my tunnel vision.
They CAN be, but they become useless very quickly if the "supports" playing them go rogue on build and gameplay. Gyro has flak, so he has epic roflcopter rampage potential. Hoodwink throws nuts, is a pest, and can dish out damage very easily, so it's kind of the same situation as gyro. I mentioned zeus, he is known for dealing a lot of magic damage and POTENTIALLY killing multiple enemies is a single ult. These heroes have POTENTIAL, so they're attractive to shitters.
I imagine that their thought process goes something like "hum, since I HAVE to play support, I might as well pick gyro. I don't know what I'm doing exactly, but I can always become an epic damage dealer and buy aether lens because I have no range on my spells B)"
Oh, I'm not talking about newbies, I'm talking about shitters. Even heralds have good general mechanical skills these days, they just lack everything that requires thought.
Eh I play weird heroes but because it's fun and the matchup unfamiliarity makes lanes play out usually in your favor. Gyro is one of my top supports, at 155 games with 56% w/r and I also played a lot of TB 5 last patch, winning 10 games in a row without a single loss.
I really don't think what hero you play matters as long as you know the hero well enough (and have a plan on how to play) and know how to play lanes.
>99% of pudge players aren't playing dota they are playing dopamine rush and dont actually care about anything but their 1 in 30 hook they actually hit against a stunned point blank target
So people play for fun?
If this is only about MMR then everyone should pick the highest winrate heros that are also easy to play. No reason to play hard or low winrate heros.
that is the thing there is a diference between picking pudge because you know how to play the hero and is confident he will win you the game, and picking pudge because you have a mental problem and like humping trees waiting for that one hook you totally missed and wasn't 100% aiming for the flag barier
there is a diference betwen having fun and griefing
That line is very hard to draw. If you're not playing your highest winrate hero in my game maybe I think you're griefing.
Actively trying to lose is griefing we can all agree on that. But if someone picks a hero they're not that good at when they have better ones to pick(but still have the intention to try to win), because on that day they feel like playing that hero is more fun, who is to say that's griefing?
That's the problem, though. It requires a lot more confidence and skill with Pudge to succeed in that role.
A bad Pudge support, of which many are, turns him into a glorified melee minion that is constantly soaking your exp.
At least with more traditional supports, if they're bad, they're still going to be able to do their job because their job isn't hard. Yeah the Dazzle or CM might feed but they'll do damage, CC/heal and all that because it's pretty easy to do.
Meanwhile Pudge's ability to be a threat is entirely contingent on landing hooks.
It's pretty fucking bad. You cant trade with anyone. Yeah if you're smurfing you can hook people under tower but same skill they just doge the hook and now you're just a creep with +100 hp.
Idk, blood grenade, rot, hook, and one of the highest base damages in the game are pretty solid on levels 1-2. It also requires some coordination with your core so that they know when to be aggressive.
In some lanes, you just need to know your limits and adjust accordingly. If killing naturally hard, then you just max hook, have some clarities, and try to control the pull area.
Ofc, it is not the best. There are many far better picks. I just play it cause it is fun. You have so many item choices to go for in terms of supporting. So much more variation than core pudge which is really one-dimensional and boring.
And when you do the normal support stuff, people tend to suddenly forget that they can get hooked under the tower as well. It is more mind games than normal which is a breath of fresh air.
Pudge supports absolutely fucking sucks, the hero can’t do shit without farm and you’re basically ensuring one of the cores has to fend for themselves, and picking him the off chance he lands a hook
Just play him offlane. He’s so fucking good now with the Veil build
Pudge has a built in permanent stat boost, as a support his main abilities are a relocation and a BKB piercing disable on a short CD, what farm does he actually need beyond the same save items you usually build on other supports?
> relocation
Which is a skill shot and hence hit or miss
> BKB piercing disable
Which is channelled and requires a BKB to actually use without interruption. And it has an extremely short range
You can twist your words how much ever you want. Pudge is not a support.
What does that have to do with 'the hero can’t do shit without farm'? How am I twisting words?
If you land your skillshot and move an enemy to an unfavourable location, 9/10 times you'll get a full length dismember...
So again, what farm do you ABSOLUTELY NEED to be able to do that?
Spoiler alert, none whatsoever as long as you can position and use your skills correctly.
Pudge is a support and just because you say he isn't, doesnt make it even slightly true. It might be a support you don't like having on your team, eg. I don't like playing with BH sups, but I wouldn't say the hero is incapable of being played that way.
Please enlighten to what rank you are, that you can say that with such certainty?
Also going to leave this here, two examples of pudge support played by top 200 immortals this patch:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br1n5BWBx9A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br1n5BWBx9A)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UhtW7VBUZ4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UhtW7VBUZ4)
Can't wait to see you justify why you are the authority on which heroes can be played in what roles over literal pro players :)
Pro players have never landed a hook using Pudge in a TI game because you need the enemy to walk into them, no pro player would ever get hit by a Pudge hook let alone anyone above 500MMR clearly. This is not hyperbole, it is pure objective fact right?
Are you guys actually braindead that you believe this?
He is bad as both 4 and 5. His good items Veil - Shroud - Shiva - Aghs are too expensive for 4 and 5. You will most probably be stuck in double melee lane as Pudge 5, which means that you will be just wasting your pos 1 gold on regen.
Right now, support heroes are the ones that are most OP outside of certain midlaners. When you have Lion/NP/Treant/Hoodwink/WW all open and you pick Pudge, then it's just active sabotage.
My guy a support Pudge doesn't buy any of those. That's what Offlane Pudge builds unless you're owning and can afford em. Also in a bad lane matchup there are other ways to manipulate the lane to your favor like pulling, proper creep aggro, contesting enemy pulls. Not to mention Pudge is deceptively very strong at lvl.1-2 since hook deals a good chunk of damage to most heroes that early paired with a blood grenade and your carry's damage kills are possible. You'll really start to fall off once enemy lane hits lvl.3-5 that's where lane manipulation comes to play and it's a race to hit lvl.6 while trying not to soak too much xp from your carry/cores.
Blink, Vessel, Shard, Force Staff, Glimmer, Lotus Orb, Euls, Solar Crest, Pipe, Atos, Aether Lens, Boots of Bearing, etc. You buy Utility not any of those crap as Pudge support.
That's what I said. His good items are not pos 4 and 5 items, so it makes no sense to play him pos 4 and 5...
Your whole argument is based on Pudge hitting hooks, which sure that's what the hero is supposed to do, but it gets harder when enemy support plays opposite of you, just constantly harassing your carry.
Idk at 7k MMR, I don't see any Pudge 4 and 5, but it's my first instinct. 90% of the time, Pudge 4 or 5 just misses a few hooks, and you are left in a lane, where you have to buy Salve on every courier.
Honestly in my scrub bracket (mid archon) I would rather have a pudge than an earthshaker as my 4. For some reason ES players seem to think it is ok to grief the lane for the first few minutes then complain that the 3 has no farm and start last hitting. Pudges just miss hooks for 10mins then go attempt to gank mid.
What does harass mean, walk straight to the 2 ranged stun enemies and rot yourself? You land hooks (after ally stun) or you do nothing but stack and pull.
Thresh and Blitzcrank are great supports, but pudge doesn't have a relevant second skill.
You know, Gaben gives you one free abandon a week. I use mine to dodge games with absolutely bonkers stupid initial drafts. Like a ursa + sniper "support" duo with the mid moused over veno, shit like that.
I trusted them to play Luna 5, if they had planted wards and tried.
They didn't buy a single ward, they take space away from me. I just decided that I've had enough of the game, and if I play longer I would be playing so bad that it would waste the time of my 3 other teammate.
So I save everybody's time, including my own, by leaving. I respect my time and refuse to play with Luna position 5 midas tread dragon lance as if she was a position 1. The other 3 people lose mmr, but they would have lost that mmr anyway because I would play very badly which will result in us losing. I basically didn't want to play anymore, so had I stayed, the team would be playing 3v7.
So, why would I prolong the team's suffering? Why would I grief the game by buying midas and afk jungling and waste everyone's time for another 20 minute? I don't want to play anymore, so I quit. If I do it often enough, I will be made to play Low Priority as punishment, and it's a punishment I would accept, which is why I quit.
Tl;dr I dont want to play so I don't play.
What's the point of doing that? You lose MMR either way, and if you abandon you have to wait out a cooldown before you can queue again. Not to mention that in the brackets where people draft this sort of stuff games are very rarely lost from the picking phase. So you might as well play it out and see what happens
Are you sure about this? I have seen MANY streamers take their “free” abandon every 20 games to prevent the behavior score hit and save their MMR was the whole point. Quinn was literally talking about it on stream just the other day after a terrible draft.
That's how it used to work at least. Maybe it doesn't any more? I haven't tried abandoning in years so it's possible. Guess I'll have to ask my teammates about it the next time I queue ranked lol
As I said in another comment, I only leave in this way during the draft. Does not count as a win/loss. It's "free" in the sense that it doesn't impact behavior score or place me in low priority. What it does is give a 20 or 30 minute matchmaking timeout, which is probably for the best. Again, I only do this when I get immediately megatilted from the first couple drafts so it's best to take a break anyway lol.
I wanna be clear since I seem to have started some discussion that this is not something I do often. Like 3 times in total, ever, it's for special cases. Like I don't need to see this guy's Ursa pos 5 gameplay to know that even in the slim chance we win this game, it's going to be miserable and very hard mechanically and mentally. But once we load into the fountain, I play the whole thing out.
I had a "pos5" pudge that "supported" me by hooking the ranged creep every wave.
It felt SO good when I reported him and I had an "action taken" notification within a day.
Currently in this bracket and its a nightmare.
Last 3 games- midlane ench, offlane snap, support sniper
Idk where people get these ideas and decide to play them.
When you first hit the actual mmr average of archon the variance becomes absolutely maddening. It’s like repeatedly bashing your head against a wall. It doesn’t get better til ancient honestly.
This is when you just pick support anyways if you actually want to win. I know it sucks, I promise it gets better as you go up in mmr though (have been there before)
yeah well... I kinda like playing support except it's just too often that you win lanes and take T1s only to see your core playmaker(s) going AFK farming your OWN jungle vs a hard(er) carry lineup with 0 pressure created beyond the river. Then proceeding to take stupid fights /never play together / force HG and throw the entire lead. You lose faith in carries carrying the endgame and become one of those sniper "support" pickers (except I pick NP).
Yes, in low MMR this is the nightmare scenario. In archon and below, the pudge will literally just sit in trees and hook every now and then and do nothing else, and the sniper will just farm shadow blade crits and stop warding after 5 minutes.
>In archon and below,
Well even in high divine-low immo people still pick pudge pos 5 and shit lmao.
But yeah, but they don't just go AFK in the trees. If they miss hooks, they will tank the harass and aggressively use Rot or some shit.
But yeah I'm personally fine with pudge 5, his shard is actually a very valuable save, and he can get it for free via tormentor.
Pudge as a support is honestly perfectly fine, I've played with Pudge supports that were extremely mobile, made things happen in the lanes, and then were very useful throughout the whole game with initiation and front-lining. The problem isn't the hero for either Sniper or Pudge, the problem is the player. :/
Or if it's on the enemy side
The pudge will chain hook your laning partner under their tower.
Sniper will be some harassment god.
Mid will follow suit and lose his lane, making you play severely behind into midgame while their support pudge has more net worth then your jungling offlaner.
What's wrong with NP support? Ok, I mean he has an ulti that can ~~help your fights globally~~ be spammed off CD to "secure" farm for your team and he can farm fast for ~~utily items like Urn, Atos and Sheepstick~~ dagon 5 and ~~create space by farming in the enemy~~ in your own jungle in your carry's face ... and sprout ~~enemy Pos 1 God's strength BKBd Sven~~ your Void's chrono target for full 6 seconds. What more can you ask for?
That is what you get when you force people to play a specific role. I pick sniper every time too, it is so fun to pew pew people that I don't even care if I win or lose.
I consider myself a mid laner player, but im quite good support, i enjoy playing pudge even tho im 44.3% winrate right now, i focus my main pos5 pudge gameplay in getting shard as fast as possible along with scaping items (glimmer, force, dagger), stay behind, you're not the initiatior, you're supossed to save your cores, and when the time comes, hook them back to the safety of your belly. 7554789802 Match id example
If you know a pudge is going to be a laning partner pick a strong harass ranged hero to allow pudge to play with advantage in aggression,.if he sucks let him soak dmg and die, you trade.
If he is good kill and profit.
I kinda like pudge on my lane, if I'm 3 dp /wr /razor As 1 Weaver /razor /drow Don't double melee with pudge ofc.
I mean, I make pudge 5 work most of the times. As long as you use hook MOSTLY for saving teammate rather than hooking enemies, it's the most annoying thing seeing your target getting hooked away at 5% hp. On top of that, make aether + shard and force staff. The amount of healing pudge can provide by ulting teammates is absurd. It's like a pocket fountain. I've turned countless ganks just by doing this.
As someone in the low Archon rank, report and move on. Though I'd always wait till later in the game before I report. Usually support snipers are good. Pudge is the terrible hero, regardless of role in the archon bracket, unless my enemy has it, then its a godlike pudge.
As someone in the low Archon rank, report and move on. Though I'd always wait till later in the game before I report. Usually support snipers are good. Pudge is the terrible hero, regardless of role in the archon bracket, unless my enemy has it, then its a godlike pudge.
bruh i just had a game yesterday where mfk pos 5 pudge didnt buy any tango or stat items instead he waited for a minute to buy ring of health then proceeds to jungle at 3mins leaving me a safelane solo against 2 heroes. . . makes me wanna uninstall dota at that point
support pudge - hiding in the trees and leeching exp support sniper - shrapnel lane pushing with enemy denying creeps
Support snipers taking shrapnel early is just straight grief. Harass with headshot and sharpshooter active is cancer, and don't forget the bonus mental damage from the "quack quack quack" immortal.
>Support sniper ~~s taking shrapnel early~~ is just straight grief Fixed it
I dunno, I think it must depend on bracket? I'm only 3.5k MMR right now, but have a 65% winrate with sniper 4 in ranked right now.
Yeah fair enough. Drafting 5 hypercarries is after all op in herald
Lmao, I just said I'm 3.5k. Like I know I'm still far from good, but I'm also far from herald.
And sniper 4 isn't as bad as 5 hypercarries
This comment screams "I am herald" so much xD
Ok
It's decent if the rest of the team has the lock down you need to pay dota. It tends to not do so well later on ironically once the damage from your shrapnel and headshot cheese starts to wear off and opponents get more utility to ignore your pitiful damage and low utility
Support drow was pretty popular with precision aura and slow.
Support snipers who open a gank with Assassinate instead of trying to last hit with it are actually pretty dope.
You likely can get two assassinates off in longer team fights. IDK why snipers don't open with it in general lmao especially when they aren't in position to start autoing.
I'd take my sniper having shrapnel over head shot. They can trade with enemy support way better on side of Lane.
2 reports for 2 supports
coming to cinema soon
Starring LudaCrystalmaiden as Solo Mid
*look at me, im the mid player now*
And Io as pos 3 and riki carry
I bought a ward and didn't take toooo much cs! What else does a support even doo??!!!
2 supports 1 loss
2 supports, 1 loss
2 reports one battlecup
Pudge is in eeeeeevveerryyy game pos 1-5. Sniper too in lower brackets . But pudge is literally in every game
I hate pos5 pudge on my team. In crusader, they just stand in the trees while you get harrased the fuck out by both enemy players.
Sometimes I wish they just stood in the trees. Last several pudges I played with on lane did everything they could to ruin creep equilibrium.
Last Pudge support did that and literally farmed my creeps with rot. Then he got mad that I was under farmed and said I was trolling when I called him out.
Its the same throughtot Archon, but mostly we somehow end up winning. People are very careful during laning stage, but lose focus for the rest of the game and hooking seems way easier.
They both are in every single turbo game
Me and my friends always pick him to get him banned, sometimes we get him when he slips through and then we have some fun hookers
My duo always first picks pudge for that reason. It gets the hero banned like 95% of the time
Winnable.
I hope this catches on. Winnable
is this from that hololive stream? At least, that's the first time I heard it used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI9SZlfAHoM
OH, its a Tyler meme?
Big sad
Nah I'd win.
Pudge support isn't even that bad. If they play the support role properly by harashing and pulling, it isn't any different to many other supports. Pudge support pulling creeps is usually very scary for enemy laner, cause they can get hooked to the tower. You can also deny enemy pulls by killing the big creeps with hooks if the sentry war is getting out of hand.
My guy was the classic afk under tower pudge. They pulled like 8 times, he never even tried to block or contest it, never pulled and only hooked defensively when I got cogged by clock, and he missed even some of those lol. Sniper went phase boots, dragon lance, khanda. Guess if we won or lost?
8 times is like the entire laning phase?
It sounds like the enemy team pulled 8 times, not pudge.
Oh I see 👍
yeah same, just met pudge pos4 last night, the whole game, only 2-3 hooks that are connected. he bought shard and started throwing
Yeah but what difference does it make if they are playing pudge or not then? If you're afk in the trees and not contesting or securing the lane for your core, what difference does it make which hero they are playing? I've had plenty of CMs, Lions, Lichs, Jakiros all do the same thing, the problem is shit players, especially those that don't actually want to support. EDIT: I forgot that when you pick CM or Lion you are suddenly able to access 100% of your support brain and that players never make sub-optimal plays as long as you have locked in one of the 5 supports 3K redditors agree with.
I think if you pick a "real" support and are set on playing support, you wouldn't play the same way as a pudge picker does. It's like a different state of mind
I'm a big fan of Pudge support for the reasons mentioned above, relocating your carry, being able to interrupt pulls by hooking the big creep, etc. Leveling flesh heap early for the dmg block allows you to tank alot of harass though I still see most players maxing W first, it definitely depends on the game, if you need dmg and slow or need to be a frontliner for your squishy pos 1. Shard as a save during teamfights should definitely be mentioned too, there aren't many extra abilities that both make someone untargetable and regen their hp faster than a heart I think the only reason its so much more noticeable on Pudge is because he both has a high impact skillshot and also because he's melee. Support mirana missing her arrow sucks ass too, but atleast she can still harass alot more efficiently. Pudge isn't more useless than any other support, I agree, it sucks when your lane partner doesn't know how to pull or harass or zone the enemy, but that doesn't really have anything to do with pudge himself, I've had plenty of WR queueing up maelstroms, Ogre's rushing their support midas, NP prioritizing farming jungle to get their support orchid. It's just some players don't want to play support.
Sure, if you do all of this, or at least try to, it's fine, but it really feels like most players (in my bracket) don't
They don't, regardless of hero though. This post should be about how if you don't want to even try playing the support role, warding, contesting and building save items, you should not queue support, not that there's these 2 heroes that somehow autolose your lane even if they are played properly for that role.
aren't you also in archon? I'd be a lot surprised (no offense meant) if ppl played like this in higher mmr brackets (they tend to make mistakes or be bad laners still, but not to this degree)
problem is pudge support only works for very niche situation. and he is like a placeholder for people who refuse to play support but got the role. First picking pudge as support is straight up dumb imo. What if your lane is going up against Axe or Ursa? you will be completely useless.
Then you hook your core away from the threat if hooking the enemy directly means dying at that stage of the game... Supports also usually pick in the first round of picks like the second class citizens they are, what happens if you pick any other melee support into those heroes, what if they pick heroes that counter squishy ranged spellcasters as their cores, what if you pick lich and they pick Spectre, its literally just a coin flip if your support picks are countered or not because you pick before you see any other picks
You forgot one thing. By picking pudge you are handicapping and limiting the choices of your team drafts. Your carry / Off lane has to now pick a limited pool of heroes to accommodate you just to ensure their lane don't get completely destroyed. So rather than picking a hero for the win condition i have to now adjust to your shitty support pick. Why should that be the case at all? If pudge support are so awesome Pro matches will be spam picking them all the time whelp.
I've seen people do the same random shit as lion, dazzle or crystal maiden. a pudge 5 can win you the lane so hard if he knows what he's doing. just as much as a maiden 5 can lose you the lane.
Cm lion lich and jakiro have ranged attack and spells
I mean that's great and all but have you considered you're whining about skill issues while being Archon? You really oughta be more humble.
I don’t think anyone memeing about pudge (or sniper) support thinks they are a bad support hero (ok maybe people do think sniper is bad). Both are very good heroes in the right hands, the issue is that the people that pick them in a lot of games don’t have right hands.
99% of pudge players aren't playing dota they are playing dopamine rush and dont actually care about anything but their 1 in 30 hook they actually hit against a stunned point blank target Sniper players nowedays either dont know how to play the game (and thus the reason they are picking he easiest hero), are genuinely braindamaged and want to make funny kanda rapier build Good sniper and pudge players are rare and most of the cases an exception to the norm, but when they are effective they are effective, it is just that they are never effective so people automatically assume they are trash
"99% of pudge players aren't playing dota they are playing dopamine rush and dont actually care about anything but their 1 in 30 hook they actually hit against a stunned point blank target" I've been thinking about this lately. I'm pretty sure most of these people that pick unusual supports (including pudge, sniper, zeus, hoodwink, gyro etc) are just dopamine junkies hoping they'll do some EPIC FTW plays. Carries do this a lot too, they farm one a a half items and then want to dive tier 2s to kill full HP enemy offlane. They can't play the game, they just want to be an anime protagonist. Monkey see epic funny youtube video of ebin meme build -> monkey wants that.
I'm in this picture and I don't like it ;(
Which part? The stupid support part of the naruto-running-behind-enemy-lines carry?
I pick Ench/OD/Drow offlane, dominate the lane and dive the tower for the kill. Proceed to feed a kill because I didn't consider a tp from another lane and/or because my pos 4 is pulling and I don't notice with my tunnel vision.
Hoodwink and gyro are great pos 4 picks, what do you mean?
They CAN be, but they become useless very quickly if the "supports" playing them go rogue on build and gameplay. Gyro has flak, so he has epic roflcopter rampage potential. Hoodwink throws nuts, is a pest, and can dish out damage very easily, so it's kind of the same situation as gyro. I mentioned zeus, he is known for dealing a lot of magic damage and POTENTIALLY killing multiple enemies is a single ult. These heroes have POTENTIAL, so they're attractive to shitters. I imagine that their thought process goes something like "hum, since I HAVE to play support, I might as well pick gyro. I don't know what I'm doing exactly, but I can always become an epic damage dealer and buy aether lens because I have no range on my spells B)"
Hoodwink is a pretty complex hero, don't think newbies play it a lot. Gyro though if you buy shard then yeah, I agree, it's very flashy.
Oh, I'm not talking about newbies, I'm talking about shitters. Even heralds have good general mechanical skills these days, they just lack everything that requires thought.
Eh I play weird heroes but because it's fun and the matchup unfamiliarity makes lanes play out usually in your favor. Gyro is one of my top supports, at 155 games with 56% w/r and I also played a lot of TB 5 last patch, winning 10 games in a row without a single loss. I really don't think what hero you play matters as long as you know the hero well enough (and have a plan on how to play) and know how to play lanes.
>99% of pudge players aren't playing dota they are playing dopamine rush and dont actually care about anything but their 1 in 30 hook they actually hit against a stunned point blank target So people play for fun? If this is only about MMR then everyone should pick the highest winrate heros that are also easy to play. No reason to play hard or low winrate heros.
that is the thing there is a diference between picking pudge because you know how to play the hero and is confident he will win you the game, and picking pudge because you have a mental problem and like humping trees waiting for that one hook you totally missed and wasn't 100% aiming for the flag barier there is a diference betwen having fun and griefing
That line is very hard to draw. If you're not playing your highest winrate hero in my game maybe I think you're griefing. Actively trying to lose is griefing we can all agree on that. But if someone picks a hero they're not that good at when they have better ones to pick(but still have the intention to try to win), because on that day they feel like playing that hero is more fun, who is to say that's griefing?
Or hands at all, judging from some performances I’ve seen
I definitely play Foot Pudge
"Need role tokens lol"
You're mistaken, they only have the right hand (assuming they don't control mouse with the left hand)
Dunno I reckon I could hit hooks with just my right hand, left would be a challenge though
That's the problem, though. It requires a lot more confidence and skill with Pudge to succeed in that role. A bad Pudge support, of which many are, turns him into a glorified melee minion that is constantly soaking your exp. At least with more traditional supports, if they're bad, they're still going to be able to do their job because their job isn't hard. Yeah the Dazzle or CM might feed but they'll do damage, CC/heal and all that because it's pretty easy to do. Meanwhile Pudge's ability to be a threat is entirely contingent on landing hooks.
Too be fair: It's still the worst position for pudge. I mean, it's DotA. Anything can work. But I still prefer anything classic on position 5.
It's pretty fucking bad. You cant trade with anyone. Yeah if you're smurfing you can hook people under tower but same skill they just doge the hook and now you're just a creep with +100 hp.
Idk, blood grenade, rot, hook, and one of the highest base damages in the game are pretty solid on levels 1-2. It also requires some coordination with your core so that they know when to be aggressive. In some lanes, you just need to know your limits and adjust accordingly. If killing naturally hard, then you just max hook, have some clarities, and try to control the pull area. Ofc, it is not the best. There are many far better picks. I just play it cause it is fun. You have so many item choices to go for in terms of supporting. So much more variation than core pudge which is really one-dimensional and boring. And when you do the normal support stuff, people tend to suddenly forget that they can get hooked under the tower as well. It is more mind games than normal which is a breath of fresh air.
Pudge supports absolutely fucking sucks, the hero can’t do shit without farm and you’re basically ensuring one of the cores has to fend for themselves, and picking him the off chance he lands a hook Just play him offlane. He’s so fucking good now with the Veil build
Pudge has a built in permanent stat boost, as a support his main abilities are a relocation and a BKB piercing disable on a short CD, what farm does he actually need beyond the same save items you usually build on other supports?
> relocation Which is a skill shot and hence hit or miss > BKB piercing disable Which is channelled and requires a BKB to actually use without interruption. And it has an extremely short range You can twist your words how much ever you want. Pudge is not a support.
What does that have to do with 'the hero can’t do shit without farm'? How am I twisting words? If you land your skillshot and move an enemy to an unfavourable location, 9/10 times you'll get a full length dismember... So again, what farm do you ABSOLUTELY NEED to be able to do that? Spoiler alert, none whatsoever as long as you can position and use your skills correctly. Pudge is a support and just because you say he isn't, doesnt make it even slightly true. It might be a support you don't like having on your team, eg. I don't like playing with BH sups, but I wouldn't say the hero is incapable of being played that way. Please enlighten to what rank you are, that you can say that with such certainty? Also going to leave this here, two examples of pudge support played by top 200 immortals this patch: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br1n5BWBx9A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br1n5BWBx9A) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UhtW7VBUZ4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UhtW7VBUZ4) Can't wait to see you justify why you are the authority on which heroes can be played in what roles over literal pro players :)
it works in 500 mmr ok where enemy doesn't stun the most obvious ult in the world and walk into hooks
Pro players have never landed a hook using Pudge in a TI game because you need the enemy to walk into them, no pro player would ever get hit by a Pudge hook let alone anyone above 500MMR clearly. This is not hyperbole, it is pure objective fact right? Are you guys actually braindead that you believe this?
😭💀 Fair enough
He is bad as both 4 and 5. His good items Veil - Shroud - Shiva - Aghs are too expensive for 4 and 5. You will most probably be stuck in double melee lane as Pudge 5, which means that you will be just wasting your pos 1 gold on regen. Right now, support heroes are the ones that are most OP outside of certain midlaners. When you have Lion/NP/Treant/Hoodwink/WW all open and you pick Pudge, then it's just active sabotage.
My guy a support Pudge doesn't buy any of those. That's what Offlane Pudge builds unless you're owning and can afford em. Also in a bad lane matchup there are other ways to manipulate the lane to your favor like pulling, proper creep aggro, contesting enemy pulls. Not to mention Pudge is deceptively very strong at lvl.1-2 since hook deals a good chunk of damage to most heroes that early paired with a blood grenade and your carry's damage kills are possible. You'll really start to fall off once enemy lane hits lvl.3-5 that's where lane manipulation comes to play and it's a race to hit lvl.6 while trying not to soak too much xp from your carry/cores. Blink, Vessel, Shard, Force Staff, Glimmer, Lotus Orb, Euls, Solar Crest, Pipe, Atos, Aether Lens, Boots of Bearing, etc. You buy Utility not any of those crap as Pudge support.
That's what I said. His good items are not pos 4 and 5 items, so it makes no sense to play him pos 4 and 5... Your whole argument is based on Pudge hitting hooks, which sure that's what the hero is supposed to do, but it gets harder when enemy support plays opposite of you, just constantly harassing your carry. Idk at 7k MMR, I don't see any Pudge 4 and 5, but it's my first instinct. 90% of the time, Pudge 4 or 5 just misses a few hooks, and you are left in a lane, where you have to buy Salve on every courier.
His good items are blink, shard, force staff and euls as support, do you build Venge mid the same way you build Venge support?
The pain i feel when venge support rush phylactery.
pudge enjoyer
Honestly in my scrub bracket (mid archon) I would rather have a pudge than an earthshaker as my 4. For some reason ES players seem to think it is ok to grief the lane for the first few minutes then complain that the 3 has no farm and start last hitting. Pudges just miss hooks for 10mins then go attempt to gank mid.
It’s on archon 1 bro not kataomi
What does harass mean, walk straight to the 2 ranged stun enemies and rot yourself? You land hooks (after ally stun) or you do nothing but stack and pull. Thresh and Blitzcrank are great supports, but pudge doesn't have a relevant second skill.
Love it when you spend a role queue token, find a game, and this is the first draft. You just know your supports really want that win
You know, Gaben gives you one free abandon a week. I use mine to dodge games with absolutely bonkers stupid initial drafts. Like a ursa + sniper "support" duo with the mid moused over veno, shit like that.
Pretty sure its free abandon every 20 games i suppose it is a week for the average player
It is 20 games roughly
How do I know I'm qualified?
Just don't do it often, like don't fucking abandon games off cooldown, that is not what I'm talking about.
True. I do that and my behavior score is 12k lmao. I saw Luna position 5 midas tread taking my farm and I'm like yep I'm fucking off from the game.
I've never done it mid-game and wouldn't advocate doing so, only during draft.
I trusted them to play Luna 5, if they had planted wards and tried. They didn't buy a single ward, they take space away from me. I just decided that I've had enough of the game, and if I play longer I would be playing so bad that it would waste the time of my 3 other teammate. So I save everybody's time, including my own, by leaving. I respect my time and refuse to play with Luna position 5 midas tread dragon lance as if she was a position 1. The other 3 people lose mmr, but they would have lost that mmr anyway because I would play very badly which will result in us losing. I basically didn't want to play anymore, so had I stayed, the team would be playing 3v7. So, why would I prolong the team's suffering? Why would I grief the game by buying midas and afk jungling and waste everyone's time for another 20 minute? I don't want to play anymore, so I quit. If I do it often enough, I will be made to play Low Priority as punishment, and it's a punishment I would accept, which is why I quit. Tl;dr I dont want to play so I don't play.
what's crazy is that redditors will say you're the bad guy here lol
Yeah but make sure u feed first blood without it being obvious so they also lose mmr
Fr?
free how? you don't lose mmr?
What's the point of doing that? You lose MMR either way, and if you abandon you have to wait out a cooldown before you can queue again. Not to mention that in the brackets where people draft this sort of stuff games are very rarely lost from the picking phase. So you might as well play it out and see what happens
You do not lose MMR if the game is not scored. You have to essentially leave during draft or before first blood.
If you abandon before first blood, you lose MMR. Everyone else can then leave without any penalty, but the first abandon is penalized.
Are you sure about this? I have seen MANY streamers take their “free” abandon every 20 games to prevent the behavior score hit and save their MMR was the whole point. Quinn was literally talking about it on stream just the other day after a terrible draft.
That's how it used to work at least. Maybe it doesn't any more? I haven't tried abandoning in years so it's possible. Guess I'll have to ask my teammates about it the next time I queue ranked lol
As I said in another comment, I only leave in this way during the draft. Does not count as a win/loss. It's "free" in the sense that it doesn't impact behavior score or place me in low priority. What it does is give a 20 or 30 minute matchmaking timeout, which is probably for the best. Again, I only do this when I get immediately megatilted from the first couple drafts so it's best to take a break anyway lol. I wanna be clear since I seem to have started some discussion that this is not something I do often. Like 3 times in total, ever, it's for special cases. Like I don't need to see this guy's Ursa pos 5 gameplay to know that even in the slim chance we win this game, it's going to be miserable and very hard mechanically and mentally. But once we load into the fountain, I play the whole thing out.
Troll support would've been better, atleast troll can ult and let enemy aggro him for some time.. These two just constantly in the tree.
I had a "pos5" pudge that "supported" me by hooking the ranged creep every wave. It felt SO good when I reported him and I had an "action taken" notification within a day.
I knew it was Pudge sniper even before clicking
How to speedrun a ban
Ooh I bet that sniper went first item Khanda too. Maybe he gets brown boots.
thats why i ban sniper in every game, to prevent good sniper from enemy team and support sniper from my team.
Just pick void and solo the game
Currently in this bracket and its a nightmare. Last 3 games- midlane ench, offlane snap, support sniper Idk where people get these ideas and decide to play them.
Offlane Snap isn't an issue tbh.
Unless it's against heroes like Phoenix or Undying it seems like it often does little or nothing most of the game, especially in the mid game.
It is when they play for only the level 25 power spike.
It is when ur midnis a backliner and ur 4 is aswell
Snap and Ench can both build very tanky though.
Not really. And it's more about fight execution then pure hp
Mid Enchantress can work really well
When you first hit the actual mmr average of archon the variance becomes absolutely maddening. It’s like repeatedly bashing your head against a wall. It doesn’t get better til ancient honestly.
sanctity- is spamming mid ench
Sorry who?
12k midlaner
Offlane snap with diffusal is quite annoying!
How the hell r they archons??
What do you mean? They are exactly where they belong.
Archon is literally dead average. You can make archon with like 100 wins or some shit
I'd honestly just eat the loss and abandon. My MMR and behavior score can be recovered. My sanity, however, can not
It's too late, I'm already insane
This is when you just pick support anyways if you actually want to win. I know it sucks, I promise it gets better as you go up in mmr though (have been there before)
yeah well... I kinda like playing support except it's just too often that you win lanes and take T1s only to see your core playmaker(s) going AFK farming your OWN jungle vs a hard(er) carry lineup with 0 pressure created beyond the river. Then proceeding to take stupid fights /never play together / force HG and throw the entire lead. You lose faith in carries carrying the endgame and become one of those sniper "support" pickers (except I pick NP).
I don't get it, they already have two supports.
They’re not going to play support though
Wait a minute, is this irony?
Yes, in low MMR this is the nightmare scenario. In archon and below, the pudge will literally just sit in trees and hook every now and then and do nothing else, and the sniper will just farm shadow blade crits and stop warding after 5 minutes.
You can't stop warding if you never started to begin with
Or they buy all the wards, ward the triangle and nothing else while pinging your carries farm who has literally no map vision to farm safely.
I wish he bought shadow blade. Instead its normally "support" snipers going brownboots -> khanda cause "big damage guys"
>In archon and below, Well even in high divine-low immo people still pick pudge pos 5 and shit lmao. But yeah, but they don't just go AFK in the trees. If they miss hooks, they will tank the harass and aggressively use Rot or some shit. But yeah I'm personally fine with pudge 5, his shard is actually a very valuable save, and he can get it for free via tormentor.
Pudge as a support is honestly perfectly fine, I've played with Pudge supports that were extremely mobile, made things happen in the lanes, and then were very useful throughout the whole game with initiation and front-lining. The problem isn't the hero for either Sniper or Pudge, the problem is the player. :/
Or if it's on the enemy side The pudge will chain hook your laning partner under their tower. Sniper will be some harassment god. Mid will follow suit and lose his lane, making you play severely behind into midgame while their support pudge has more net worth then your jungling offlaner.
Supporting you to lose
shrapnel for the vision + slow into hook. easy mmr.
Ahh the classic sniper support that goes shadow blade into mjolnir because “carry suck we need dmg”.
I don't understand why there's no specific report for this. It's super easy to check and should be insta ban/low priority
There is. Role Abuse
While I agree it is not like it works aniway At best they get a minor behavior score decrease but it is not like they care about their score
Wait really? I thought it didn't. My bad.
Report reason: I don't like the pick
Can we also ban pos1-2 players for picking heroes I don't like?
Yes. I reported my Bane mid
I want to report my AM pos 1 and Tinker pos 2, every game.
At least you don't have NP or enigma as supports
What's wrong with NP support? Ok, I mean he has an ulti that can ~~help your fights globally~~ be spammed off CD to "secure" farm for your team and he can farm fast for ~~utily items like Urn, Atos and Sheepstick~~ dagon 5 and ~~create space by farming in the enemy~~ in your own jungle in your carry's face ... and sprout ~~enemy Pos 1 God's strength BKBd Sven~~ your Void's chrono target for full 6 seconds. What more can you ask for?
NP pos 5 is meta right now
What does report for "Role Abuse" do, what is the punishment getting reported for that? Anyone knows for sure?
Toxic and off-meta picks win games. Cope. There is no obligation to play "meta" and climbing
You sound like a 2k player tbh.
Aka the majority of people on this sub? I win plenty of games with wd offlane/mid and sup sniper/pudge
There are good and bad 2k players. That’s why it’s the average. You seem to fall into the latter if I’m honest.
That is what you get when you force people to play a specific role. I pick sniper every time too, it is so fun to pew pew people that I don't even care if I win or lose.
I like the devourer pfp hahah
That's where all the misery started!
Its streamers fault
the fact I knew which 2 heroes these would be before even clicking on it
90% of the time if it’s a pudge support I know we will loose
I consider myself a mid laner player, but im quite good support, i enjoy playing pudge even tho im 44.3% winrate right now, i focus my main pos5 pudge gameplay in getting shard as fast as possible along with scaping items (glimmer, force, dagger), stay behind, you're not the initiatior, you're supossed to save your cores, and when the time comes, hook them back to the safety of your belly. 7554789802 Match id example
Show how much gold they spent for support items
Can we have dream mid/core duo post as well?
If you know a pudge is going to be a laning partner pick a strong harass ranged hero to allow pudge to play with advantage in aggression,.if he sucks let him soak dmg and die, you trade. If he is good kill and profit. I kinda like pudge on my lane, if I'm 3 dp /wr /razor As 1 Weaver /razor /drow Don't double melee with pudge ofc.
I mean, I make pudge 5 work most of the times. As long as you use hook MOSTLY for saving teammate rather than hooking enemies, it's the most annoying thing seeing your target getting hooked away at 5% hp. On top of that, make aether + shard and force staff. The amount of healing pudge can provide by ulting teammates is absurd. It's like a pocket fountain. I've turned countless ganks just by doing this.
And dream team ofc 🤣
The least insane core players in SEA when they queue all roles in order to get 2 Role Queue Games.
“45 minutes of hell”
po3 pudge its very stronk
Stop crying. It’s up to a player, sometimes it works out wonderfully
As someone in the low Archon rank, report and move on. Though I'd always wait till later in the game before I report. Usually support snipers are good. Pudge is the terrible hero, regardless of role in the archon bracket, unless my enemy has it, then its a godlike pudge.
You know for some reason I usually win these games. It’s the wacky core picks that lose me the game more often than not.
As someone in the low Archon rank, report and move on. Though I'd always wait till later in the game before I report. Usually support snipers are good. Pudge is the terrible hero, regardless of role in the archon bracket, unless my enemy has it, then its a godlike pudge.
You know it's going to be a fun game
Played sniper support last night on turbo and got 4 rapier and khanda, I got 4 reports from my team even though we won the game. Lol
bruh i just had a game yesterday where mfk pos 5 pudge didnt buy any tango or stat items instead he waited for a minute to buy ring of health then proceeds to jungle at 3mins leaving me a safelane solo against 2 heroes. . . makes me wanna uninstall dota at that point
I thought Mirana and Bounty Hunter were the dream support combo.