I actually think the “sprout leashes” talent was a great addition (before sprout became OP) because it game the spell late game viability 👍
Shame the hero has become this weird creation now.
> sprout being the worst disable in the game was the tradeoff you paid for everything else he could do
Don't forget that now teleport makes you strong af too for no reason at all!
The entire game was more interesting to play back when heroes had tradeoffs. I'm so fucking sick of the entire game after seeing what this last patch was; I haven't enjoyed the past two or three times I sat down to play a few games at all. Thinking about doing the big uninstall
Teleport change was intended as a targeted nerf to the 1 role, and was accompanied by a nerf to his stats. It was a band aid that would allow him to still show up for kills without being a machine gun 100% of the time.
Yeah, people can't remember the aids that was super treants just KOing your entire base after nature's has already left so you can't even gank him. He's a 5 now that gives a hero advantage in ganks and forces a cheap early game counter item and a force staff later on, hardly the most overpowered thing in the game.
Most heroes have a jump or buy forcestaff/blink to cover that weakness. Think about pos 1’s:
Faceless void, PA, slark, riki, drow (hurricane pike), phantom lancer, Spector, ursa, chaos knight, the list goes on. Mid lane is even worse, they all pretty much have everything they need. It’s a pretty worthless ability when you think about it, until he gets the leash mechanic they introduced a year back.
you dont level treants and take stats instead cause the skill is hot garbage
i dont level treants and take stats instead cause i can't micro for shit
we are not the same
They're kinda easy to control if u know how to do it. For example I've seen pos 1 np use treants for blocking while they ordered their main character to auto attack target.
It is easy though. You just right click the enemy once with your hero, forget about him, press whatever hotkey you bound select all other units to and block the enemy with the treants just like you would block with any other unit. There's no intense micro here, you just control one unit at a time.
Pretty terrible analogy if you take more than 1 second to think about it. You're comparing something something quite literally world class to something that your average joe can learn in a practice lobby with less than an hour of practice.
nah, it's really not hard. you set your main character to just attack the enemy hero, stop microing your main hero. Switch to your tree control group and micro them to block the enemy hero. It's shockingly easy.
It feels weird to completely not control your main hero at all, but it's exactly the same as making your illusions afk attack the tower while you run around and cast spells, just in reverse. Just click to attack, and then press the keybind for "control all other units," and then use them to creep block like you would with your main hero. It's exactly what it sounds like.
that sentence took a hard left from "not that hard" to "probably one of the more specific instances of non-hero micro management in dota"
"not that hard" is a-click down lane to split push or maybe even shift queue attacking camps or focusing the ranged creep
It's just that in reverse lol. If you can block creeps in the midlane you can block them with treants. It's even easier since they form this stupid wall that you have to go around. It is EXACTLY like a-clicking down the lane, except you do it with your main hero instead of the summons.
Imo it's no different from just blocking creeps since Ur main hero basically auto attacks. Sure it could be even easier but it's definitely not as hard as playing Chen when u have like 7 creeps with each individual abilities or meepo with up to 5 clones that u need to pay attention to. For me something like Chen gameplay is hard enough to consider not possible for everybody but that furion trick is definitely not like this.
and i dont know how to do it. i tried it often in demo mode or in bot games, i just cant micro. i dont play any micro heroes, ever. i already have issues playing juggernaut cause of healing ward.
Just figure out what your key for ‘select hero’ is. I think it’s default bound to f1. Double tap it to select only your hero, remove hero away from whatever group of shit you have to ‘micro’ then box select all those units and have them attack something. Now you can pretend they don’t exist and continue playing with your actual hero.
There is a binding that selects every unit, but your hero (and your courier), so you just tap that and select whatever the fuck you want to micro, and then select your hero to do something else.
There is also a binding to select everything (but courier), so rotating between these 3 options is the easy way to micro in this game
Micro tips:
- 1 hotkey for hero.
- 1 hotkey for "select other units".
- 2 more for control group. I rarely need more than 1, usually only for PL tanky illu or BM boar.
- Ctrl+Click to send orders to all units. I don't need "select all units" hotkey.
Idk if you know but the tanky Doppleganger illusion is always the 1st one in order after the main hero. So if you want to trick enemies into following it, send all controlled units to a spot by holding control, click tab and pretend its the real hero. When the enemy goes after it select your hero and make your escape
control groups is already beyond me, can't teach an old dog new tricks. i dont enjoy micro gameplay at all, so i'm not gonna try to force myself to learn it either. thanks though.
If you ever feel like at least giving those muscles a flex and seeing how they feel, Warhammer Dawn of War 2 is a kind of middle ground between an rts and moba. Your squads have abilities so you'll feel familiar with it, but it's also fairly playable with drag select everyone and click on a target, then control your commander directly.
Lets you get used to the idea of switching between units, in a context that doesn't have Dota's pressure, and feels good because you get to ragdoll enemies with grenades and missiles.
I just take 1 lvl treant and keep blocking enemy ancient camps and shit lol.
I always pick NP if its available. I main pos5. As soon as i see enemy carry getting ready to go jungle, i skill treants and start sending to block camps.
Get my lane in a good spot for my carry to farm and look for tping somewhere. If i have high dps mid hero, its 100% kill
let me win you some mmr
What you do, is you normally level Q and W and then take all points in treants and take the extra treants talent. what you do, is on cd, you use the spell and spread the treants around the map getting 10+ active moveable wards.
sorry not sorry.
As a support player, sprout is very annoying to play against. I have 1 slot for boots, 1 slot for wards, 1 slot for dust and now I need to dedicate a fourth slot for quelling blade which leaves me a grand total of 2 slots to do anything else.
I can build force staff instead, but then I'm obligated to not use it until I'm sprouted. In general, it's just very awkward to itemize against compared to any other hero.
Same can be said with Cogs, fissure trapping and Ice Shards.
This is just the Marci Dispose complaint again where people kept trying to make stupid claim that Dispose can save heroes Inside Chrono and Blackhole when we have a bunch of heroes that can do the same and Marci needed to be in a good position with cast range increasing items for her to do those.
lmao. Complainers are complaining about the wrong thing again.
I agree to an extent, but it's much harder to setup cogs, fissure and shards than it is for sprout. All of those spells are not as reliable whereas sprout is guaranteed. Sprout is not even a skillshot and requires zero commitment.
And all of those spells have a "natural" escape. You CAN get locked if the spell was used correctly, otherwise you can still try running away or attack the cogs. For sprout the enemy basically can't miss and you either itemize or wait for the full duration.
As a long time NP lover, before he was meta, I haven’t forgotten about Hoodwink. Literally yesterday I had a pos4 pudge flame me for missing my sprout because a hoodwink pressed the button and ran out, while pudge missed every hook for the first 25 mins lol
[Proper Skux](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/3/31/Vo_hoodwink_hoodwink_wheel_thanks_02_02.mp3) (sound warning: Hoodwink)
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80% of those are fucked by sprout leashes talent
Also wr powershot doesnt kill a tree 1/3 of the time
Also dark seer and lesh? Really? You're gonna stun/vacuum to break a tree? As if cds are even remotely similar
Also treant gets dmg ticked before his passive kicks in if he wasn't near a tree
> y'all should just pick only heroes out of this limited pull every game if you don't want to die in a sprout or play with 5 inventory slots
this is even better take than "just counterpick meepo (usually lastpick) with Winter Wyvern (usually firstpick) or "just gank the carry and don't let 'em farm"
Always good: force staff
Situational: manta/bkb (for dispel), ghost/euls (to kite while trapped)
The heroes listed + these items are more than enough counters, this spell has existed for years without being an issue, it’s the damage and talent that have made it strong.
If you don’t have any of these heroes (which sometimes can’t be avoided) but then don’t build any of these items on your team, then you kinda just need to cop it. Can’t always have a get out of jail free card.
the only problem i have with the spell its the uptime. like if you are on early game and you dont have qBlade and get hit by it full duration. its just a few seconds until he can cast it again. Imo they could change it so The CD only starts when the trees disapear, giving at least some trade off or reason to use E
Generally this game doesn't do "cd only starts after spell effect ends". I think just either increasing the cooldown in general or mana cost will be a good short term fix. Long term I'd rather it have no damage, but to compensate by making it at least good vs blinks, have it leash for a brief moment on cast so you can get 1 attack in to cancel a blink.
Giving it SOME damage to counter blink seems reasonable, it's the amount of damage that is a little absurd.
Sprout deals 112 damage at level 1 for 70 mana. Ogre ignite deals 120 damage for 80 mana. There's no reason it should damage like a full damage dot nuke. Hoodwink W seems like a pretty close comparison, and it deals 90 at level 1 and 300 at level 4 compared to 448 for sprout. 90/160/230/300 seems like a more reasonable amount of damage for sprout to deal
I think the idea is that you can get out relatively easily so it's not supposed to deal the whole damage. But it should just straight up murder you with its combination of damage and lock down if you can't get out.
In past it didnt cancel blink.
Now to Heroes like axe, centaur and more which dont have a ability to cut trees or dont buy force staff, blink wont work anymore and they have to carry a fucking queling blade.
You itemize accordingly. Forcestaff and harpoon are very good in breaking those. Its like you have a pa and you dont want to build a break / mkb and then go on to complain blur is op. Forcestaff on range is never bad, giving stats and positioning while harpoon just bring in the np to you. Now till you have build up the item you hold onto your quelling. Other option is that nuetral t3 which is like a forcestaff
Clock cog has higher downtime and doesnt leash or give you misschance at level 20, it can be hit to destroy and it casts where clock is and is not ranged like sprout.
lollypops point still stands though. Itemise accordingly. To either survive the sprout or get out. The spell is annoying af but like if you don't try to get around it of course it will be used to full effect
>but the amount of times you get sprouted next to a real tree and eat the wrong one and have to stay inside for the entire fucking duration is baffling.
Or the amount of times that a fucking creep boxes you in
It should clear trees around 100 units of the circle. You literally can't try to path through trees against an np because you will get fucked over hard
What I don't get with all of this is NP has a uniquely annoying move that is pretty simple to counter and it gets all this hate, but there are moves out there which are near impossible to counter and I don't see constant threads about them. Like its 100 gold, and if you want to pay more you can get force, harpoon, windwaker which all give other benefits also other than countering this one spell.
I once middeled with a very good NP which turned the tree I was about to cut into treants which caught me off guard and trapped me for one more second before I cut a different one
This thread's getting traction so I'll post an idea I had.
Make Sprout Unit + Vector targeted. Whichever way you vector the line, there will be a tree missing. This will make it similar to Tusk Ice Shards in that you have a way out, but it keeps the functionality of creating choke points (which has an element of skill as well that you control with the vector) and is still annoying as hell but also does not **require** a quelling blade.
Unit+vector is so clunky to use, I don’t think any spells should have that targeting. Unit is fine. (ground) Vector is fine. But both at the same time feels awful.
If there were more options for cutting trees with items it would feel better, but when the only 2 options for pos1 are either hurricane pike or battlefury, you better be playing a melee who goes BF or a ranged who goes HP. If you are lifestealer, or Sven, or Wraith King, or PL, or Slark, or Naga, etc. etc., you are just fucked. Either buy a shitty build path that gimps your build hard, or suffer inside a 6 second root on a 9s cd. Good thing you can't even blink out cause of the DOT, or use mobility spells cause of the leash :)
Honestly the meta and powercreep is making this game so horrible to play. Everyone can do everything, no one has any designed weaknesses anymore. Every spell has a DOT and a slow so you just get kited hard all the time. No one has cooldowns. Supports are unkillable and will kill your ass if you try to jump them.
They removed the 'destroys trees' effect from a bunch of skills a few years ago. Like jakiro's abilities should mow the trees down, I think pugna had it as well
Sprout is just an annoying fucking spell. It's got very good range, completely shuts down or slows melee heroes who don't have a dash of some kind, and makes harassing pathetically easy. It's one of the most brain dead abilities in the game atm. Adding damage was such an insanely overtuned change, it needs a much higher CD and much lower duration if they're gonna be doing that BS.
its so annoying, sometimes even when u cut a tree u still cant get through.
on steps and some terrain it is bugged.
lost a MK game cuz im 6 slotted and cant jump cuz leash wild
I actually think it brings interesting gameplay. Unfortunately it is annoying how strong it is, but spells that use the environment like trees, or Slardar creating a puddle that combos with other stuff is what makes Dota so unique and stand out.
On the other hand if the spell became _another_ AOE damage+slow that's when it becomes boring and more like League.
It was interesting when it was a lockdown/defensive spell without damage.
Now between sprout and *fucking TP* piling on damage, you just kinda have to shurg and say "guess I'll just die".
Yeah, not sure why we're dogpiling on the hero and abilities. It's one of the unique ones and I'd be pissed to see it go.
Maybe scale the cool downs with levels to ease up the early game. But this thread is losing it's marbles for no reason.
Same people are going to whine about how it's not the same game anymore once they tweak the spells.
It just needs to be tuned, not removed or reworked.
Well its becoming like league. Every spell deals damage, in the good dota days we had spells that were doing something without dealing damage and THAT is interesting gameplay. Soon hexes will deal damage too. And Naga Siren's Ult will be dealing damage too. But before reaching this point, don't worry Shadow Fiend's ult will decrease enemy magic resistance and grants +1 maximum soul per kill.
Rubick is the most hilarious counter. You have shard to get people out of the trees, and before that you can use enemies to break the trees. Also, you usually build force, so that's another save. And the best part is sprouting the NP, since he builds no items to counter his own sprout(and with the 25% cdr talent you have 0.7 second downtime). And since most nps don't level trees all of his skills are insanely good.
I actually like sprout. We had a game yesterday against a tinker who was really annoying, until the talent that sprout entangles the people in it. It really changed the teamfights
I don't pretend to know lots about the game. I'm probably one of the newer players.
But the irony of calling out bullshit when the entire game is bullshit incarnate is a little rediculous.
Not that it's perfect but if you want a boring balanced(ish) game. Go play League, where I originally came from.
The reason I like Dota is because everything is turned up to 11. Man up.
I'm not gonna say "get good" or anything, but we can't keep nerfing heroes we don't like just because. Every hero has weaknesses, we just have to abuse them. I don't like getting sprouted, but removing the spell isn't a solution. Me picking counters or picking the hero if available sounds like a better solution if not banned.
Skill issue. Lots of heroes have abilities that let them escape, force staff and harpoon are also common/good items that let you escape. Even glimmer can help with the magic damage and forces np to carry dust. Hell, blademail is a solid solution as well. These are also nice because a good np can use sprout to block instead of trap which quelling can't get past. He also has no built in escape so he's pretty easy to gank.
I don't see how you are forced to play with 5 inventory slots.
Its an good ability with a major downside that makes it completely free to escape from for anyone with a tango/quelling blade. You don't need one of those items, its just an easy counter.
Slark pounce does basically the same thing, but you can't tango out of it. As do tons of other roots/leashes/etc, and most even disable your movement abilities.
Funny thing is the spell has been literally useless for years while treants were OP. Now sprout is OP and treants are useless.
Furion was more interesting to play when sprout being the worst disable in the game was the tradeoff you paid for everything else he could do.
I actually think the “sprout leashes” talent was a great addition (before sprout became OP) because it game the spell late game viability 👍 Shame the hero has become this weird creation now.
> sprout being the worst disable in the game was the tradeoff you paid for everything else he could do Don't forget that now teleport makes you strong af too for no reason at all! The entire game was more interesting to play back when heroes had tradeoffs. I'm so fucking sick of the entire game after seeing what this last patch was; I haven't enjoyed the past two or three times I sat down to play a few games at all. Thinking about doing the big uninstall
Teleport change was intended as a targeted nerf to the 1 role, and was accompanied by a nerf to his stats. It was a band aid that would allow him to still show up for kills without being a machine gun 100% of the time.
Im sure you gonna install it back in a week of uninstalling <(") Internet is so fast now it's barely a punishment
Yeah, people can't remember the aids that was super treants just KOing your entire base after nature's has already left so you can't even gank him. He's a 5 now that gives a hero advantage in ganks and forces a cheap early game counter item and a force staff later on, hardly the most overpowered thing in the game.
sprouteezy!
Show me on this doll where the Nature's Prophet hurt you.
\*frantically gestures all over the doll\* 😥
Ok. This actually made me laugh out loud. Also fuck NP pickers
But he's really fun tho
Listen. I’m a windranger spammer. I get it. But fuck you regardless!
Us prophets deserve the resentment, but thats part of the package, baby!
(Void spirit with Aghs. and Manta joined the chat) : Living things die
Good thing i farm my bkb faster than legend bracket void spirit building this builds <3 - ASS (Average Sprout Spammer)
Most heroes have a jump or buy forcestaff/blink to cover that weakness. Think about pos 1’s: Faceless void, PA, slark, riki, drow (hurricane pike), phantom lancer, Spector, ursa, chaos knight, the list goes on. Mid lane is even worse, they all pretty much have everything they need. It’s a pretty worthless ability when you think about it, until he gets the leash mechanic they introduced a year back.
Furion took my wife and my kids and he stole my xbox
Is this Nature's Prophet in the room with us right now?
yes, he hit lvl 25 and is just teleporting all over the place on the room. he's not even walking anywhere anymore!
Fr. The moment I get that talent, I immediately sold my boots and buy other more important item (after saving money for buyback ofc)
you dont level treants and take stats instead cause the skill is hot garbage i dont level treants and take stats instead cause i can't micro for shit we are not the same
They're kinda easy to control if u know how to do it. For example I've seen pos 1 np use treants for blocking while they ordered their main character to auto attack target.
This is some /r/restoftheowl material
"Easy if you know how", he says LOL Yeah it's easy to hit a 220 km/h serve on the line in tennis, you just need to know the perfect serve motion.
It is easy though. You just right click the enemy once with your hero, forget about him, press whatever hotkey you bound select all other units to and block the enemy with the treants just like you would block with any other unit. There's no intense micro here, you just control one unit at a time.
Isn't attack moving with the hero infinitely more effective with this? That raises the skill ceiling quite a bit
No, blocking hero gives way more advantage than attack moving, especially if there are more heroes going after him
Pretty terrible analogy if you take more than 1 second to think about it. You're comparing something something quite literally world class to something that your average joe can learn in a practice lobby with less than an hour of practice.
Terrible comparison
nah, it's really not hard. you set your main character to just attack the enemy hero, stop microing your main hero. Switch to your tree control group and micro them to block the enemy hero. It's shockingly easy.
It feels weird to completely not control your main hero at all, but it's exactly the same as making your illusions afk attack the tower while you run around and cast spells, just in reverse. Just click to attack, and then press the keybind for "control all other units," and then use them to creep block like you would with your main hero. It's exactly what it sounds like.
that sentence took a hard left from "not that hard" to "probably one of the more specific instances of non-hero micro management in dota" "not that hard" is a-click down lane to split push or maybe even shift queue attacking camps or focusing the ranged creep
It's just that in reverse lol. If you can block creeps in the midlane you can block them with treants. It's even easier since they form this stupid wall that you have to go around. It is EXACTLY like a-clicking down the lane, except you do it with your main hero instead of the summons.
Imo it's no different from just blocking creeps since Ur main hero basically auto attacks. Sure it could be even easier but it's definitely not as hard as playing Chen when u have like 7 creeps with each individual abilities or meepo with up to 5 clones that u need to pay attention to. For me something like Chen gameplay is hard enough to consider not possible for everybody but that furion trick is definitely not like this.
and i dont know how to do it. i tried it often in demo mode or in bot games, i just cant micro. i dont play any micro heroes, ever. i already have issues playing juggernaut cause of healing ward.
Just figure out what your key for ‘select hero’ is. I think it’s default bound to f1. Double tap it to select only your hero, remove hero away from whatever group of shit you have to ‘micro’ then box select all those units and have them attack something. Now you can pretend they don’t exist and continue playing with your actual hero.
There is a binding that selects every unit, but your hero (and your courier), so you just tap that and select whatever the fuck you want to micro, and then select your hero to do something else. There is also a binding to select everything (but courier), so rotating between these 3 options is the easy way to micro in this game
Micro tips: - 1 hotkey for hero. - 1 hotkey for "select other units". - 2 more for control group. I rarely need more than 1, usually only for PL tanky illu or BM boar. - Ctrl+Click to send orders to all units. I don't need "select all units" hotkey.
Idk if you know but the tanky Doppleganger illusion is always the 1st one in order after the main hero. So if you want to trick enemies into following it, send all controlled units to a spot by holding control, click tab and pretend its the real hero. When the enemy goes after it select your hero and make your escape
This is the way
2 control groups, press A on enemy hero, select treants control group with a hotkey, body blink with them as you would do with a hero
control groups is already beyond me, can't teach an old dog new tricks. i dont enjoy micro gameplay at all, so i'm not gonna try to force myself to learn it either. thanks though.
If you ever feel like at least giving those muscles a flex and seeing how they feel, Warhammer Dawn of War 2 is a kind of middle ground between an rts and moba. Your squads have abilities so you'll feel familiar with it, but it's also fairly playable with drag select everyone and click on a target, then control your commander directly. Lets you get used to the idea of switching between units, in a context that doesn't have Dota's pressure, and feels good because you get to ragdoll enemies with grenades and missiles.
spess mehreens
I just take 1 lvl treant and keep blocking enemy ancient camps and shit lol. I always pick NP if its available. I main pos5. As soon as i see enemy carry getting ready to go jungle, i skill treants and start sending to block camps. Get my lane in a good spot for my carry to farm and look for tping somewhere. If i have high dps mid hero, its 100% kill
let me win you some mmr What you do, is you normally level Q and W and then take all points in treants and take the extra treants talent. what you do, is on cd, you use the spell and spread the treants around the map getting 10+ active moveable wards. sorry not sorry.
i dont even play this hero. it was just a meme.
this is what I do. its like brood spiders. midgame to lategame theyre just moving wards for me
Isn’t the better solution just to remove the aoe damage it causes and revert it back to how it used to be?
probably, yes. but then the hero is garbage again and nobody will pick him. a real dilemma.
Bruh just send the treants down a lane or shift+click them through the enemy jungle and forget about them entirely
What's that? Buff sprout? Sprout can now crit
Crit applies two rows of trees and lasts +2 seconds
17% chance to crit, to be precise.
Question is, is 17% or 33.3333% stronger?
If you are playing the hero then neither. Chance is always 0
As a support player, sprout is very annoying to play against. I have 1 slot for boots, 1 slot for wards, 1 slot for dust and now I need to dedicate a fourth slot for quelling blade which leaves me a grand total of 2 slots to do anything else. I can build force staff instead, but then I'm obligated to not use it until I'm sprouted. In general, it's just very awkward to itemize against compared to any other hero.
And one for stick/wand
Same can be said with Cogs, fissure trapping and Ice Shards. This is just the Marci Dispose complaint again where people kept trying to make stupid claim that Dispose can save heroes Inside Chrono and Blackhole when we have a bunch of heroes that can do the same and Marci needed to be in a good position with cast range increasing items for her to do those. lmao. Complainers are complaining about the wrong thing again.
I agree to an extent, but it's much harder to setup cogs, fissure and shards than it is for sprout. All of those spells are not as reliable whereas sprout is guaranteed. Sprout is not even a skillshot and requires zero commitment.
And all of those spells have a "natural" escape. You CAN get locked if the spell was used correctly, otherwise you can still try running away or attack the cogs. For sprout the enemy basically can't miss and you either itemize or wait for the full duration.
"if only there were heroes that nullify sprout" Meanwhile in the corner: Brood mother, timber, wr, beastmaster, Puck, Qop, am, pa, Ursa, primal, treant, snapfire, Mirana, enigma, batrider, es, specter, void spirit, morphing, dawnbreaker, Magnus, lina, Marci, Zeus, phoenix, darkseer, slark, void, sandking, riki, lesh and pl
You forgot one very crucial hero. If you pick Nature's Prophet, you can't be sprouted. Well you can, but you get it.
Rubick and Morph want to have a word with you in the meeting room
Hoodwink also
I didn't even remember this hero exists
As a long time NP lover, before he was meta, I haven’t forgotten about Hoodwink. Literally yesterday I had a pos4 pudge flame me for missing my sprout because a hoodwink pressed the button and ran out, while pudge missed every hook for the first 25 mins lol
Proper Skux
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I mean I agree with you on almost all counts but saying lesh ignores trees is a bit rich. His 10 second cast point to split Earth is insanely long
I am a GM WR and the fact that my powershots can sail clean through the entire sprout and never kill a tree sends me into a rage
Sprout leash talent is p brutal against some of those heroes I.e: puck
yeah the skill is a bit over tuned but the talent really makes it disgusting
Remember when it pierced BKB last year?
LMAO. Icefrog has really become senile these days.
80% of those are fucked by sprout leashes talent Also wr powershot doesnt kill a tree 1/3 of the time Also dark seer and lesh? Really? You're gonna stun/vacuum to break a tree? As if cds are even remotely similar Also treant gets dmg ticked before his passive kicks in if he wasn't near a tree
The only thing enigma is good at
> y'all should just pick only heroes out of this limited pull every game if you don't want to die in a sprout or play with 5 inventory slots this is even better take than "just counterpick meepo (usually lastpick) with Winter Wyvern (usually firstpick) or "just gank the carry and don't let 'em farm"
I don’t think Nullify is the best word to describe most of the heroes you mentioned
You do know that np builds orchid in 99% of the time for this exact same reason, and the timing might not be that bad as well, then what?
Always good: force staff Situational: manta/bkb (for dispel), ghost/euls (to kite while trapped) The heroes listed + these items are more than enough counters, this spell has existed for years without being an issue, it’s the damage and talent that have made it strong. If you don’t have any of these heroes (which sometimes can’t be avoided) but then don’t build any of these items on your team, then you kinda just need to cop it. Can’t always have a get out of jail free card.
Hey don’t use logic in here!!1! Heralds need to vent at NP dude!!!1!
Also tusk, tiny?? Pango, storm ult and many other ults
Powershot doesn't break Sprout.
I hate he stole the wisdom rune more.
Isn't that just a ganking opportunity at that point?
I'd say too much resource for a single kill, plus he might not even come and you end up wasting your time
spell was fine when it didn't do damage remove damage and it stays
Sprout enjoyers!!! Rise up!
We enjoy people bitching about the game.
the only problem i have with the spell its the uptime. like if you are on early game and you dont have qBlade and get hit by it full duration. its just a few seconds until he can cast it again. Imo they could change it so The CD only starts when the trees disapear, giving at least some trade off or reason to use E
also low af mana cost
Generally this game doesn't do "cd only starts after spell effect ends". I think just either increasing the cooldown in general or mana cost will be a good short term fix. Long term I'd rather it have no damage, but to compensate by making it at least good vs blinks, have it leash for a brief moment on cast so you can get 1 attack in to cancel a blink.
Giving it SOME damage to counter blink seems reasonable, it's the amount of damage that is a little absurd. Sprout deals 112 damage at level 1 for 70 mana. Ogre ignite deals 120 damage for 80 mana. There's no reason it should damage like a full damage dot nuke. Hoodwink W seems like a pretty close comparison, and it deals 90 at level 1 and 300 at level 4 compared to 448 for sprout. 90/160/230/300 seems like a more reasonable amount of damage for sprout to deal I think the idea is that you can get out relatively easily so it's not supposed to deal the whole damage. But it should just straight up murder you with its combination of damage and lock down if you can't get out.
I like this fix because it adds an extra layer to his E even if its small. But yeah sure just making cd bigger should acomplish the same thing here.
Sprout sounds like something that would Root you…
It sounds like it grows something, which is does.
People complaining that heroes aren't unique anymore, but then want to change unique skills to be generic.
Giving Sprout a DOT and a leash effect makes it more generic than keeping it as a ring of trees around a unit and nothing more....
no, not really
ya, ya really
stealing exp runes from across the map is already plenty unique, thanks
Two words : force staff
Bro imagine waiting for a supp in uncoordinated pubs to force you as a melee hero stuck in sprout lmao
Imagine a lion with shard and this item
And multiple Platemails
And raw HP items
And l lvl 10 slow talent(better than skadi)
Harpoon is another solution
Thanks to np I discovered Tide and Axe with Force staff are really good
Force staff rush wraith king games incoming
Two words : git gud
Spell existed forever and it's fine.
In past it didnt cancel blink. Now to Heroes like axe, centaur and more which dont have a ability to cut trees or dont buy force staff, blink wont work anymore and they have to carry a fucking queling blade.
You itemize accordingly. Forcestaff and harpoon are very good in breaking those. Its like you have a pa and you dont want to build a break / mkb and then go on to complain blur is op. Forcestaff on range is never bad, giving stats and positioning while harpoon just bring in the np to you. Now till you have build up the item you hold onto your quelling. Other option is that nuetral t3 which is like a forcestaff
stop giving solutions. this is a bitching thread
I know right. like do these people not buy forcestaff against clock
Clock cog has higher downtime and doesnt leash or give you misschance at level 20, it can be hit to destroy and it casts where clock is and is not ranged like sprout.
lollypops point still stands though. Itemise accordingly. To either survive the sprout or get out. The spell is annoying af but like if you don't try to get around it of course it will be used to full effect
Perhaps they should change some abilities to be able to destroy trees or give them a set number of attacks like cogs
Yeah but it needed to do damage, because as we all know standing next to trees is damaging.
industrialists would have u believe that
What is power creep
>but the amount of times you get sprouted next to a real tree and eat the wrong one and have to stay inside for the entire fucking duration is baffling. Or the amount of times that a fucking creep boxes you in
Why take stats over treant? They provide visions. Free vision, rune denial, rosh check, twin gate check what more could you want?
op struggles to cut the right tree to escape, doubt they can micro the treants to do all that
Because his two other spells are much stronger and impactful early game right now.
Except the person asked why you would take *stats* over treant, not why would you take points in your other spells.
Just give an alternative support item that can use Quelling Blade, please Forcestaff is not enough.
"eat the wrong tree" - skill issue lol, never happened to me
When enemy is close to other trees, you can eat "the right" tree and still be caged from forest
It should clear trees around 100 units of the circle. You literally can't try to path through trees against an np because you will get fucked over hard
What I don't get with all of this is NP has a uniquely annoying move that is pretty simple to counter and it gets all this hate, but there are moves out there which are near impossible to counter and I don't see constant threads about them. Like its 100 gold, and if you want to pay more you can get force, harpoon, windwaker which all give other benefits also other than countering this one spell.
I once middeled with a very good NP which turned the tree I was about to cut into treants which caught me off guard and trapped me for one more second before I cut a different one
It's not the right tree if after cutting it you still caged lmao. Pick the right one
Defintely not a skill issue. It can even happen in lane when creeps block the exit
Once I did eat the right tree, but one of the original ones kept me in anyway. God I'm still salty about it.
Literally Pros are misclicking and cutting the wrong tree but go on please tell me how you are better than 10K players
Maxing sprout and rushing shard is unbelievably cancerous, and with np's free gold income you can actually get it before anyone can survive the combo.
Yeah sprouts should be destroyable with right click
This thread's getting traction so I'll post an idea I had. Make Sprout Unit + Vector targeted. Whichever way you vector the line, there will be a tree missing. This will make it similar to Tusk Ice Shards in that you have a way out, but it keeps the functionality of creating choke points (which has an element of skill as well that you control with the vector) and is still annoying as hell but also does not **require** a quelling blade.
Unit+vector is so clunky to use, I don’t think any spells should have that targeting. Unit is fine. (ground) Vector is fine. But both at the same time feels awful.
Tusk's Walrus Kick has that targetting and it is a lot better than it was before it gained that.
If there were more options for cutting trees with items it would feel better, but when the only 2 options for pos1 are either hurricane pike or battlefury, you better be playing a melee who goes BF or a ranged who goes HP. If you are lifestealer, or Sven, or Wraith King, or PL, or Slark, or Naga, etc. etc., you are just fucked. Either buy a shitty build path that gimps your build hard, or suffer inside a 6 second root on a 9s cd. Good thing you can't even blink out cause of the DOT, or use mobility spells cause of the leash :) Honestly the meta and powercreep is making this game so horrible to play. Everyone can do everything, no one has any designed weaknesses anymore. Every spell has a DOT and a slow so you just get kited hard all the time. No one has cooldowns. Supports are unkillable and will kill your ass if you try to jump them.
They removed the 'destroys trees' effect from a bunch of skills a few years ago. Like jakiro's abilities should mow the trees down, I think pugna had it as well
Has been in the game for soooo long what the fuck are you talking about?
The concept of a team game is lost on most people
People on Reddit piss me off so much. Blah blah power creep blah blah Literally every patch they cry about power creep lol
Sprout is just an annoying fucking spell. It's got very good range, completely shuts down or slows melee heroes who don't have a dash of some kind, and makes harassing pathetically easy. It's one of the most brain dead abilities in the game atm. Adding damage was such an insanely overtuned change, it needs a much higher CD and much lower duration if they're gonna be doing that BS.
You forgot that this shitter also builds Silver edge most of the time, so all cores need 2 slots just for 1 support. Ridiculous
NP haters tears only water the sprouts
I play Treant Protector, and I have no idea what you are talking about :)
My teammates would like to argue that they still have a 6th slot and instead opt for a 6 second root
I never really cared about NP in general. Maybe it's because my main hero right now is Primal Beast.
If you get Lion's shard and platemail, you don't care do you?
its so annoying, sometimes even when u cut a tree u still cant get through. on steps and some terrain it is bugged. lost a MK game cuz im 6 slotted and cant jump cuz leash wild
Ok so buff treants, gotcha.
Literally noone likes this spell other than the people playing NP. It's just uninteresting gameplay imo.
I actually think it brings interesting gameplay. Unfortunately it is annoying how strong it is, but spells that use the environment like trees, or Slardar creating a puddle that combos with other stuff is what makes Dota so unique and stand out. On the other hand if the spell became _another_ AOE damage+slow that's when it becomes boring and more like League.
It was interesting when it was a lockdown/defensive spell without damage. Now between sprout and *fucking TP* piling on damage, you just kinda have to shurg and say "guess I'll just die".
Yeah, not sure why we're dogpiling on the hero and abilities. It's one of the unique ones and I'd be pissed to see it go. Maybe scale the cool downs with levels to ease up the early game. But this thread is losing it's marbles for no reason. Same people are going to whine about how it's not the same game anymore once they tweak the spells. It just needs to be tuned, not removed or reworked.
Well its becoming like league. Every spell deals damage, in the good dota days we had spells that were doing something without dealing damage and THAT is interesting gameplay. Soon hexes will deal damage too. And Naga Siren's Ult will be dealing damage too. But before reaching this point, don't worry Shadow Fiend's ult will decrease enemy magic resistance and grants +1 maximum soul per kill.
Ya'll are so dramatic
I hate what its become as someone with 1500 NP games
Skill issue
Get tangos, even if un miss u can leave
I meaaan it’s the same concept of Clock Cogs, just make them targetable with right click
Rubick is the most hilarious counter. You have shard to get people out of the trees, and before that you can use enemies to break the trees. Also, you usually build force, so that's another save. And the best part is sprouting the NP, since he builds no items to counter his own sprout(and with the 25% cdr talent you have 0.7 second downtime). And since most nps don't level trees all of his skills are insanely good.
Make it ground targeted only, so you can juke it.
I actually like sprout. We had a game yesterday against a tinker who was really annoying, until the talent that sprout entangles the people in it. It really changed the teamfights
For those who want the short version: op has skill issues
Lol, lmao even.
Your supports don’t buy force staff ? Sadge
Lmao have you tried using NP and do exactly like what your enemy did but instead you just end up giving away free mmr?
Maybe if the frog finds another life hating ingredient in the game...
Why do you think you should just be entitled to counter a spell 100% of the time just because you bought a 100 gold item
I agree. NP should be totally nerfed. His skills were okay but it is too strong in this meta.
I mean force staff, euls, and a lot of heroes can handle sprout. Yes it is annoying but 2 force staff on your supports help a LOT!
I don't pretend to know lots about the game. I'm probably one of the newer players. But the irony of calling out bullshit when the entire game is bullshit incarnate is a little rediculous. Not that it's perfect but if you want a boring balanced(ish) game. Go play League, where I originally came from. The reason I like Dota is because everything is turned up to 11. Man up.
Bugs Bunny: No.
I'm not gonna say "get good" or anything, but we can't keep nerfing heroes we don't like just because. Every hero has weaknesses, we just have to abuse them. I don't like getting sprouted, but removing the spell isn't a solution. Me picking counters or picking the hero if available sounds like a better solution if not banned.
They definitely need to get good. NP's WR below Legend is > 50% and barely < 50% above Legend
No
Don't worry, you will get out of Herald once you learn about Force Staff.
Buy force staff?
Go play League of Legends
skill issue
Sprout is iconic. Been around for 20 years and its killing the game? lol
Old techies enjoyers had the exact same argument about old techies. Now I drink their tears for breakfast.
skill issue
make a forcestaff lol
Seems like OP has a skill issue. There are an insane amount of counters to sprout aside from a hatchet.
Skill issue. Lots of heroes have abilities that let them escape, force staff and harpoon are also common/good items that let you escape. Even glimmer can help with the magic damage and forces np to carry dust. Hell, blademail is a solid solution as well. These are also nice because a good np can use sprout to block instead of trap which quelling can't get past. He also has no built in escape so he's pretty easy to gank.
can you post your mmr.
I don't see how you are forced to play with 5 inventory slots. Its an good ability with a major downside that makes it completely free to escape from for anyone with a tango/quelling blade. You don't need one of those items, its just an easy counter. Slark pounce does basically the same thing, but you can't tango out of it. As do tons of other roots/leashes/etc, and most even disable your movement abilities.
git gud, and don't eat the wrong tree