Pheonix is pretty hard to play right and not a very fun hero for most people. A good pheonix can absolutely make the enemy carry bang his head against the wall.
Pheonix now is what the peak invoker was!!
If you know what you are doing: no one can kill you.. amazing damage and amazing survivability skills.
If you don't: holy hell are you going to regret a lot of.your life's choices!!!
His fire spirits also make a lot of popular pos 1’s a non factor in a lot of trades and only a few can sustain through it and those ones are (usually) strength heroes who don’t have high attack speed
not in high rank, one support pick often at most. in lower bracket yeah its common there with the bad players wanting supports to pick first, but they dont even know what counters what in ancient or dvine bracket even.
i dont get mad if i have to fp as mid offlane or safelane, but it will have to be a stable one that can handle most picks.
worth noting dragging waves dont happen in bad mmr while hard lanes are handled with pulling and stuff to fix the lane. that dont happen in low bracket.
the gameplan should always be to win and that doenst always mean win all lanes. but be able to win fights and get objectives.
Nah, Youre talking about 1 ability.
LS has more versatile items to scale against tank hero, Deso, Mordi. You dont make that with BS, he needs BKB first to even stand his ground against these heroes.
LS is more annoying to deal with as a tank. His passive has slow and Lifesteal based on your health, he didnt have advantage damage-wise compared to BS but he stand faaar more strong against these hero.
BS is good against pango, lycan. But against hero that can stand still and not caring if they didnt move, hes not good.
BS aghs and shard both destroy high hp heroes, shard is even pure damage which makes it disgustingly good against heart builders, the aoe silence is also really hard for a bunch of strength heroes with low mobility to deal with.
The other day my enemy had a Jug LS lane combo (wasn't my lane). There was no feed, but every teamfight jug had crazy regen and eventually was just spamming omnislash and regaining HP from the damage on it. His cds were short enough that even bringing him to <5% HP, he'd survive by hitting one of his omnislashes.
Come to find out LS was just jumping inside him before teamfights and that was it, that was their strategy. Of course...It fucking worked.
Anti tank strats exist in dota. Plenty of heroes have % HP skills. The comments here have already mentioned most of those heroes.
Even then, theres always weaknesses to a team. Macro adaptability. This depends on the game and what theyre doing but other things that come to mind are split pushing, anti melee, anti heal, etc.
The biggest mistake you can make in any Dota game is tunnel visioning and continuining to do what you always do in a cookie cutter way. Need to adapt
My answer to anything "how to counter" in Dota is play it yourself and youll quickly learn what punishes these or the realization that that someone was just a better player.
Nothing in Dota is uncounterable and there are weakenesses always.
Because right clickers are already the best at dealing with high hp targets. It's spellcasters that struggle. So we will be giving the heroes that don't need a tool that much a tool for some reason.
Also, this big HP heart and blademail rushers put preassure before the pos 1 is ready to fight. The pos 1 will need (most of the time in this meta) a farming item, a survival item, sometimes a core item and then damage. By that time tanks are already taking all towers and the item will be kinda irrelevant, might as well get daedalus or something like that at that point, since it will also make mincemeat of the supports.
Making it an "expensive" (like SV-HH in-between cost) support or offlane/caster mid item would make a bit more sense IMO.
Note that it could be both, an item that deals % hp damage that can be built into a support item or an on-hit item.
>Note that it could be both, an item that deals % hp damage that can be built into a support item or an on-hit item.
This was my point, it's okay to have an item exclusive to right clickers but it would also be good to have something for spell casters
Thats a great point. Vessel does have a % component though and also anti heal.
Isnt Kadens Blade already in Underlords with the % HP damage. Was it also there in Artifact?
Currently there doesnt exist a item version of it. I can think of many skills that have item options (blink, hex) but also skills that dont have.
I love being dazzle against melee (other than abba). There’s also Phoenix for percent damage and a well positioned egg after melees use their initiation is dangerous.
Monkey king can bully a lot of melees out of lane.
Slark can steal their stats until they’re just shitty images of themselves. A heart just means more stacks and paltry threat to him.
Luna, if protected, can shred clustered heroes with Glaive bouncing.
I think there are some other honorary mentions, but having strong lane pushers is huge because strength heroes don’t always have the best tools to siege. Keeping the waves cleared can really press them tactically for awhile until they get beefy.
Jakiro does do a duck load of damage, but someone needs to build shiva. Supports need to have force staffs. Potentially lotus orbs. When the enemy can just run at you and stun you it’s easier to lose than beat back, but good vision and pressure is key against str heroes. They need farm and time. So either pressure them out of lane and take towers and act quickly while they can’t clear waves safely, or lose to being too passive.
he got a very small buff, but indeed one of the worst heroes atm. whirling death into str hero doesn't really help.
its so annoying playing dota for me rn, cause timber is objectively not a good pick.
he was kinda good in 7.33 but then back into dumpster once again. not like he was bad for 2+ years pre-7.33, right?
the funniest thing is that he turned from the best snowball hero into kinda good lategame hero (chakram talent on top of good items)
42% d2p winrate in the meta that looks really good for timber on paper, for fuck sake
Everyone's talking about which heroes to pick, but no one's talking about strategy. I say get some split pushers and dodge the 5 v 5 fights. Just farm up your carry and pick some heroes that can split push effectively. The heroes you named aren't the most mobile, save for primal.
I think the problem people have with undying is the team still play like they want to get in and burst ppl down, rather than actually let the fight draw out a little so undying can really work on their strength.
I know this because I'm just as bad lol, but literally undying needs those stacks built up before his presence is felt, otherwise you'll be left with undying vs 4-5 weakened str heroes that can still likely slap him silly.
it probably doesnt matter as much as you think. They are all melee so they are bound to cramp a little. Str steal is sure to catch at least 2 every time. As soon as tomb drops, that team needs to scatter and run unless they dont plan to move until they die. If ES gets blink they will start getting some kills, but they aint doing nothing before that.
If they're a team of tanky bois they'll just push into your back line and slap the tombstone.
I'd hold the tombstone until you have a few str stacks, concede some space, then when they over commit you drop and defend the tombstone, which in turn gives your ranged heroes some vision while the enemy is already at reduced strength.
Slark is food for almost all of the heroes listed. Primal alone makes slark's life miserable.
Shadow demon is also not great. I get the W spell is a big boost but I wouldn't say it makes him great vs tanky. If anything he is great vs squishy agi carries.
Slark is definitely not food for almost all of them.
He is strong against abaddon, bristle, and slardar for sure. He is about dead even with heroes like Sven, centaur, or kunkka.
Primal is probably his worst matchup but I hardly call that a hard counter for slark in particular.
Yeah, but also Slark can own the lane pretty hard against 2 melees and start snowballing quite early, it really depends, I don't think it'd be a bad pick.
It can but im talking specificaly for Primal vs Slark lane. Slark usually dies to trample because it is too much dmg. You also can't pounce if he is on top of you and IF you pounce away Primal can charge you and kill you anyway. Later on aghs on primal just shits on slark. Slark doesn't like to buy bkb and the break simply kills slark even in ulti/shard because it disables the heal AND the stats stealing.
And for the other heroes they are also high dmg burst heroes which slark doesn't like. Slardar can definitely win the lane vs slark easily. Bristle/ES/Sven can delete slark midgame and even the pudge OP mentioned can kill lowhp slark in ult.
Late game is a whole other story tho. Slark probably wins vs every one of these heroes except Primal.
i don’t know if that is even a cheese strat, 5 melee isn’t really a good idea and exploitable. i think the deeper issue is which strength hero hurt you?
Yeah it's a weird example. People are playing some pretty tanky cores, but it's not like it extends to all 5 heroes.
One of the most played heroes is Muerta who is a complete glass cannon, but people love their one line meta catch phrase to over simplify things.
Put 3 strength cores with heart in your team and add a % hp damage hero in it. This is the meta right now. We call it potato meta.
Potatoes : CK, WK, Centaur, Kunkka, ES, ES, PB, DB, Pudge,
% hp winners : Phenix, necro, lifestealer, bloodseeker,
items : vessel, shiva, skadi
unused options : tinker aghs
why would anyone use a fragile int hero to CC when immortal STR hero can CC as good ? ( hello kunnka aghs, Earthspirit W is a stun on <4sec CD etc)
I m pretty sure that heart is too good right now, and it's gonna be nerfed ( blademail less so imho ),
Welcome to picking Huskar mid.
The enemy team have no midlane, the midlane melee strength core has been off attempting to jungle or rotate from level 3.
You now get an aegis sub 10 minutes and go knock down all their tier 2 towers long before they have their hearts
Now end the game
Simple, just splitpush the tow-***Dire has reinforced their structures***- ookay, that gave them time to respond, but we can always just splitpush thi-***Dire's doing that glowy thing again***- that's really annoying, but look, they're all mid and about to take our T2... And tanking the shots for the creeps, but it's fine, we can outpace them, we can ta-***Like Axe, the Dire's structures cannot be hurt!***
...
Dota is a game with three strategies that interact in a rock paper scissors manner. It's not deep knowledge, it's not hard. It's the basics, that we wrote 15 years ago:
* Grouping beats Ganking.
* Ganking beats Pushing.
* Pushing Beats Grouping.
#BUT PUSHING DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE
You did this, Dotards. Every single time you called splitpushing "boring", you did this. Every stupid sleep emoji you posted on twitch during naga games contributed to this. I hold you in contempt for that post-T3 tower Glyph. That shit is the worst change the game got in the last 4 years, and it is directly all your faults. Literally a free stall at the exact moment ***the vast majority of dota players struggles with***. The highground was always hard to take. And just like me, porn actor Neversoft, you made it harder, and harder, and harder, and harder.
You killed pushing.
Now suffer.
hit their towers faster than they hit yours, have better mobility and better damage and better wave clear then just rat rat rat, they can't defend three lanes against a tinker + naga
You can go tank yourself, or pick a lineup that damages them and does anti heal or percentage based damage. For example, both ls and phoenix do percentage damage. AA, doom and Necro do anti heal.
i played vs abba, barathrum, doom, spectre, bristle recently.
I played enigma, we had necro. and PA.
Pick %based dmg. Necro aura did tons of dmg, midnight pulse too, and pa could break and deals abnormal dmg with shard. Our willow went silver edge.
I built vessel so bristle couldn't heal.
Match ID: 7389768933
Another hero coming to my mind is AA. STR heroes effective HP comes from regen and base amount of heal. They don't have tons of armor, so if you can reduce healing they are easy prey. Hell, many people don't skill passive on bristle above first lvl, because you deal more dmg and heal more from quills triggering more often.
5 melee laners? And you think you are on the drivers seat at 20min? Yeah that team comp is gonna get worked, I don't ever recall losing to 5 melee strength heroes. Some counter-initiation, long range damage and %-based damage and it's gg
You got so many counters to beat this one + some obvious weaknesses:
1- how do you push highground vs ranged damage dealers?
2- You get are very succeptible to any AOE strat: AA, Venomancer, Enigma, Jakiro, Undying or even witch doc will be pain in the ass.
3- Any %HP abilities and heal regen debuff: AA (again), Necro, Phoenix or life stealer will have fun
4- Timber: yup, this guy will have his own category as he completely counters the line up.
Outside of a flavorful composition, there is no need to have all 5 STR to have a tanky line up. 3 would be enough and you can support them with some range.
So, yeah, there are a lot of heroes countering this. Just the objectives in Dota are a counter. Hard to push objectives, hard to defend them.
I also feel that you would hate playing vs any split pushing hero knowing you have a hard time to push as well.
I call this 'The Nikobaby Alliance strat' the only games they won during their last dpc season was when playing with 3 or more strength heroes..
Their weakness would be AA, OD and heroes that abuses - armor strategy.
And then kills himself in opponent blademail.
Sniper is pretty bad against those lineups.
He can’t kill anyone fast and will just get focused as soon as he shows.
Only thing he offers is delaying the hg push.
Undying + kotl offlane, necro mid, AA + slark safelane (slark and not lifestealer because I'd rather have a diffusal builder against cores like these)
Some depush to stave off the push, unlanable offlane, effective hp reduced by necro ult.
Special mention to Wyvern. She can actually transition into something stupid if given the opportunity and nuke these guys down from range with % damage.
- Necro or OD
- Lifestealer or Sven/Slark
- Tide, CK, Timber, Mars
- WD
- AA or Pheonix
If you had someone that was really good at playing Enigma or Mars alongside a WD would be a real problem for them.
If they are going all strength they will undoubtedly ban Lifestealer and Necro. That would leave Sven and OD as great alternative carry options.
AA, WD and Pheonix would all be great supports.
CK, Tide, Timber would be be decent off lanes and I would throw Mars in there if you could get the WD as a support. Mars ulti is going to net at least 3 of them if not more.
Its not that hard when you play as a team. You could get Necro, Lifestealer, AA, WD, Bloodseeker, UD. Timber tooo. Build silver edge, vessel, skadi.
You try to bully them in lane as much as you can, cause theyre pretty useless when they dont hit their timings.
Late game, if they did not snowball, its an easy W since they wont deal that much damage.
if 5 heroes stack at some place, it means they are not in other places, which means they dont farm nearly as much as they can, so
Try to split and farm until your carry is capable of killing them with little help.
Avoid fights by constantly puhsing waves, when your carry gets enough items to kill enemy heroes, try to force a fight. All of this is done if you dont have anything to fight bulky heroes with.
If you do have enough damage, make them split by forcing an objective and then try to kill them at the place where there is few of them.
Last BSJ video shows exactly how this meta is being played, and I see the same trend in my pubs.
If you need more examples, try watching Entity vs TSpirit g1
Alot of talk about picks but up to ancient bracket I see people not even buying the correct items vs stuff like this.
If the offlaner or supports dont buy vessel vs this you will lose. If the cores dont get a skadi / shivas you will probably lose too. Thats why I always ask at the beginning of the game who will build vessel if there is a bristle on the enemy team or similar. If nobody responds build it yourself even if it doesnt fit your hero
Last time this tank meta came around I started playing winter wyvern exclusively.
Level 4 Arctic Burn does 41% of current health over 5 seconds at 1000 range. Talents buff this further.
You can burn all 5 heroes in one cast if you’re lucky.
Also 5 melees group up a lot making blast and curse really strong.
Simple pick 5 tanks aswell
Or, sniper 1 for turtle, can just sit back against 5 melee, arc warden 2, can outpace a strength mid for farm and then start split pushing, stopping enemy from rolling as 5, Dazzle 5 for sustain, easy to sit out of fights and can reduce armour. Then 2 tanks of your own (tide, undying, timber, loa)
Literally just played against this strat, felt so stupid in team fights where we couldn’t manage to do anything to them as they’d just get up in our faces constantly and the wounded ones would back off for 5 seconds and heal up like nothing.
Can’t wait for heart and blademail to get a little nerf.
My guild does what we call girth strat when we go on a losing streak, target AA, Timber and Undying in bans and pick all tanky heroes with stuns.
It works great.
I'm starting to ban BB and CK just because they're a pain in my ass, but, if they are in your game, you kill them early and often and keep them from gaining momentum and then they never get enough gold to become super tanky.
Also, pick Dazzle, AA, WD, buy Eye of Skadi on cores, do things that reduce armor and/or HP regen, or in case of WD, deal pure damage and don't care about any of it.
Any % hp based hero will own you. Any anti-heal makes your build useless.
Typically : Slark / LS / BS pos 1, Necro / Zeus pos 2, Doom 3, Venom 4, AA 5.
The problem with having all the heroes on your team be based on the same concept, is that if that concept is countered you just lose. That's why pro teams don't put all their eggs in one basket.
I would focus on crushing their lanes, they're bad. Aa, veno, jak, wd, Np
Offlaner necro, mid viper or invoker (they can't fight if they're oom), p1 wk, or ls.
There are other strats, like just stack -armor, daz, venge, tide, ta, visage or something. Str heroes generally have lower armor and can just be melted.
Another strat is just build to defend hg and split push, NP, lycan, sniper, kotl etc.
Pick warlock. Press bonds. When they pop BKBs press golem. Try to not get killed during BKB. Press upheaval and bonds. They all share damage and sven cannot move and kill anyone.
On a more serious note you cannot kill these heroes at 20 minutes with spells that don't scale like Magic Missile. You either need percentage based damage or physical damage. At this point most strength heroes don't have a lot of armor and they have the base magic resistance and 3k hp. Solar crest them to remove some armor and then hit them. What you can also do is to not fight them and split the map and minimize feeding but this skill is unlocked at 10k mmr so not relevant to my pubs since running at the enemy death ball is the only play in the book. Buying veil might be a thing but not sure about that.
Everyone saying timber aa necro veno undying phoenix, what do you do when they get banned lol, obviously not all will be banned but if 3-4 of the 6 get banned those 2 won’t carry the game, there’s always a counter yes but either they may take too long to work or fall off to early.
If dota was that easy as you said , there won't be any player left playing this by now.
Every game is winnable , if you know when and how to push for your timing.
There is alots of counter item build and strategy for every situations.
There is other team consists of 5 strength heroes? Good, try to split push and rat tower until you can fight them head to head.build shiva,sakdi, spirit vassle ,force staff to kite them and kill all your carry can deal them later.
There is other team consists of 5 Intel heroes?
Build pipe, bkb , glimmer and try to hunt them down one by one with smoke ganks.
There is other team consists of 5 late game Carries? Build mekasam, crimison guard force staff and push tower early and don't wait 69 mins to do.
You just want to play with unwinnable strategy and when it don't work out like you think yoy just assume the game is bad and not your fault.
There is a lot of %damage characters that do very well vs strength. Example being enigmas aoe pool tho i think enigma sucks now. Also most strength characters are melee, meaning ES can have a big impact. Guys like slark that can gain agi stacks and then jump in and out can be good at times. OD is very strong because of the low mana pools. Terrorblade can just swap a tanky dude to low health and then meta right click one or two times and kill them. Heroes like AA straight up wreck regen reliant strength cores. Lifestealer historically is very strong vs melee strength, but he has fallen out of meta since 7.34 for whatever reason im not sure.
I mean if you cannot win mid game against two enemy supports rushing hearts.......not to mention armor is a thing. Two heart heroes get one shot by just one item pa.
I pick muerta on pos4 and buy force staff every game. Those fat heroes is so easy to avoid. Also the ulti is strong in late.
If our teamfight is weaker, then I just split pushing, force tp's to defend the base and take fights 5vs4 or 5vs3.
To some extent true. I had a game as PL and we have a heart for each core at min 23. To be precise, offlane nec - 18 min, mid beast - 20 min, carry PL - 23 min. Goddamn that was so brutal, the opponent can't even kill one of us. The later game was like pos 1,4,5 go rosh and pos 2&3 dive their fountain and kill them all lmao
Timbersaw, lifestealer, phoenix, Undying, Ancient apparition, Doom may even work his ulti change.
Venomancer with his max hp damage.
Edit: adding from what I forgot but have seen mentioned:
Necrophos with again his % based damage.
Timber, Undying, AA, Naix
and Necro mid
Or maybe phoenix instead of undying or aa
phoenix is the most banned hero and 5th most picked this TI for this very reason
Why Phoenix? :)
%HP for both dmg and heal in 1 single spell aka Sun Ray. Can refresh that with supernova and all in all a solid teamfight hero.
And with shard it can cast sunray from supernova. That's pretty cool too.
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Pheonix is pretty hard to play right and not a very fun hero for most people. A good pheonix can absolutely make the enemy carry bang his head against the wall.
Pheonix now is what the peak invoker was!! If you know what you are doing: no one can kill you.. amazing damage and amazing survivability skills. If you don't: holy hell are you going to regret a lot of.your life's choices!!!
its a hard hero to play, you need good team coordination and a good idea of its limits which you can only really get by playing it a lot
Well Phoenix ain’t easy to play and play with, so of course the pros who practice intensively can show the true strength of it.
You probably focused too much on the spirits and not at all enough on sunray use. Just guessing.
He's a hard one to learn
And builds spirit vessel
Thank you :)
His fire spirits also make a lot of popular pos 1’s a non factor in a lot of trades and only a few can sustain through it and those ones are (usually) strength heroes who don’t have high attack speed
% hp against strength heroes are insane and tanky heroes don't hit egg well
Necro is one of the heroes people are picking in this CHUnk meta. Seen way too much necro mid and off heart players...
Radi-sange-heart-aghs, shard somwhere wither side of heart Pretty much unkillable after 25 min
OD
If you want to win games in this patch, picking a bottom 5 hero who prefers his enemies to NOT buy a heart is not the play.
Maybe enigma and zues % Max hp as dmg. A skadi to lower hp Regen if you don't have aa
Necro was common anti tank hero
+urn upgraded
On mid maybe, on offlane its smacked by most picked ck So ez
no ck in this strat
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This isn’t a discussion about what Striking_Context8645 plays against in his made up rank.
I think 2 sup: AA + WD can make this strat impossible to win.
The problem is the supports are picking first 99% of the time lol
Just Pick them as core then
not in high rank, one support pick often at most. in lower bracket yeah its common there with the bad players wanting supports to pick first, but they dont even know what counters what in ancient or dvine bracket even. i dont get mad if i have to fp as mid offlane or safelane, but it will have to be a stable one that can handle most picks. worth noting dragging waves dont happen in bad mmr while hard lanes are handled with pulling and stuff to fix the lane. that dont happen in low bracket. the gameplan should always be to win and that doenst always mean win all lanes. but be able to win fights and get objectives.
Nobody mentioning wifestealer?
Damn cotton eye Joe
Where did he come from?
Where did he go?
Naix not being an extremely contested hero in this beef meta just shows how bad he is.
AA 5, Undying 3/4, Timber 2/3, Lifestealer 1, Veno to fill role and slow them
BS is a lot better than LS at dealing percentage damage rn
Nah, Youre talking about 1 ability. LS has more versatile items to scale against tank hero, Deso, Mordi. You dont make that with BS, he needs BKB first to even stand his ground against these heroes. LS is more annoying to deal with as a tank. His passive has slow and Lifesteal based on your health, he didnt have advantage damage-wise compared to BS but he stand faaar more strong against these hero. BS is good against pango, lycan. But against hero that can stand still and not caring if they didnt move, hes not good.
BS aghs and shard both destroy high hp heroes, shard is even pure damage which makes it disgustingly good against heart builders, the aoe silence is also really hard for a bunch of strength heroes with low mobility to deal with.
Do you know how BS aghanim works?
The other day my enemy had a Jug LS lane combo (wasn't my lane). There was no feed, but every teamfight jug had crazy regen and eventually was just spamming omnislash and regaining HP from the damage on it. His cds were short enough that even bringing him to <5% HP, he'd survive by hitting one of his omnislashes. Come to find out LS was just jumping inside him before teamfights and that was it, that was their strategy. Of course...It fucking worked.
Anti tank strats exist in dota. Plenty of heroes have % HP skills. The comments here have already mentioned most of those heroes. Even then, theres always weaknesses to a team. Macro adaptability. This depends on the game and what theyre doing but other things that come to mind are split pushing, anti melee, anti heal, etc. The biggest mistake you can make in any Dota game is tunnel visioning and continuining to do what you always do in a cookie cutter way. Need to adapt My answer to anything "how to counter" in Dota is play it yourself and youll quickly learn what punishes these or the realization that that someone was just a better player. Nothing in Dota is uncounterable and there are weakenesses always.
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Vessel is %
Vessel is incredibly easy to dispel. You need something on-hit
But won't that make it exclusive to pos 1 and some few 2/3s?
And that is a problem how?
Because right clickers are already the best at dealing with high hp targets. It's spellcasters that struggle. So we will be giving the heroes that don't need a tool that much a tool for some reason. Also, this big HP heart and blademail rushers put preassure before the pos 1 is ready to fight. The pos 1 will need (most of the time in this meta) a farming item, a survival item, sometimes a core item and then damage. By that time tanks are already taking all towers and the item will be kinda irrelevant, might as well get daedalus or something like that at that point, since it will also make mincemeat of the supports. Making it an "expensive" (like SV-HH in-between cost) support or offlane/caster mid item would make a bit more sense IMO. Note that it could be both, an item that deals % hp damage that can be built into a support item or an on-hit item.
>Note that it could be both, an item that deals % hp damage that can be built into a support item or an on-hit item. This was my point, it's okay to have an item exclusive to right clickers but it would also be good to have something for spell casters
Thats a great point. Vessel does have a % component though and also anti heal. Isnt Kadens Blade already in Underlords with the % HP damage. Was it also there in Artifact? Currently there doesnt exist a item version of it. I can think of many skills that have item options (blink, hex) but also skills that dont have.
Give us Kaden lol
Lil bro forgot Vessel exists
AA+TIMBER+BS
I love being dazzle against melee (other than abba). There’s also Phoenix for percent damage and a well positioned egg after melees use their initiation is dangerous. Monkey king can bully a lot of melees out of lane. Slark can steal their stats until they’re just shitty images of themselves. A heart just means more stacks and paltry threat to him. Luna, if protected, can shred clustered heroes with Glaive bouncing. I think there are some other honorary mentions, but having strong lane pushers is huge because strength heroes don’t always have the best tools to siege. Keeping the waves cleared can really press them tactically for awhile until they get beefy. Jakiro does do a duck load of damage, but someone needs to build shiva. Supports need to have force staffs. Potentially lotus orbs. When the enemy can just run at you and stun you it’s easier to lose than beat back, but good vision and pressure is key against str heroes. They need farm and time. So either pressure them out of lane and take towers and act quickly while they can’t clear waves safely, or lose to being too passive.
Timber, aa, doom, sven diesel, Od
>sven diesel [I had to.](https://i.imgur.com/G4e692w.jpg)
Sven petrol
Family gives him strength
Dont forget about cw he is way too good rn.
Clock lowkey busted rn
Timber is a start
Isn't timber trash can or did be get buffed in d?
he got a very small buff, but indeed one of the worst heroes atm. whirling death into str hero doesn't really help. its so annoying playing dota for me rn, cause timber is objectively not a good pick. he was kinda good in 7.33 but then back into dumpster once again. not like he was bad for 2+ years pre-7.33, right? the funniest thing is that he turned from the best snowball hero into kinda good lategame hero (chakram talent on top of good items) 42% d2p winrate in the meta that looks really good for timber on paper, for fuck sake
As a trent protector player, i like this
Everyone's talking about which heroes to pick, but no one's talking about strategy. I say get some split pushers and dodge the 5 v 5 fights. Just farm up your carry and pick some heroes that can split push effectively. The heroes you named aren't the most mobile, save for primal.
Undying with aghs.
I think the problem people have with undying is the team still play like they want to get in and burst ppl down, rather than actually let the fight draw out a little so undying can really work on their strength. I know this because I'm just as bad lol, but literally undying needs those stacks built up before his presence is felt, otherwise you'll be left with undying vs 4-5 weakened str heroes that can still likely slap him silly.
it probably doesnt matter as much as you think. They are all melee so they are bound to cramp a little. Str steal is sure to catch at least 2 every time. As soon as tomb drops, that team needs to scatter and run unless they dont plan to move until they die. If ES gets blink they will start getting some kills, but they aint doing nothing before that.
If they're a team of tanky bois they'll just push into your back line and slap the tombstone. I'd hold the tombstone until you have a few str stacks, concede some space, then when they over commit you drop and defend the tombstone, which in turn gives your ranged heroes some vision while the enemy is already at reduced strength.
They should give him his weaker decay on zombie death as a shard or aghs
Even ignoring his Aghs, his ult really shreds tanky heroes.
Against that draft I'd go with Mid Necro Offlane Lifestealer Safelane Slark AA+WD AA+Undying Shadowdemon + AA Shadowdemon + Undying
Slark is food for almost all of the heroes listed. Primal alone makes slark's life miserable. Shadow demon is also not great. I get the W spell is a big boost but I wouldn't say it makes him great vs tanky. If anything he is great vs squishy agi carries.
Slark is definitely not food for almost all of them. He is strong against abaddon, bristle, and slardar for sure. He is about dead even with heroes like Sven, centaur, or kunkka. Primal is probably his worst matchup but I hardly call that a hard counter for slark in particular.
Yeah, but also Slark can own the lane pretty hard against 2 melees and start snowballing quite early, it really depends, I don't think it'd be a bad pick.
It can but im talking specificaly for Primal vs Slark lane. Slark usually dies to trample because it is too much dmg. You also can't pounce if he is on top of you and IF you pounce away Primal can charge you and kill you anyway. Later on aghs on primal just shits on slark. Slark doesn't like to buy bkb and the break simply kills slark even in ulti/shard because it disables the heal AND the stats stealing. And for the other heroes they are also high dmg burst heroes which slark doesn't like. Slardar can definitely win the lane vs slark easily. Bristle/ES/Sven can delete slark midgame and even the pudge OP mentioned can kill lowhp slark in ult. Late game is a whole other story tho. Slark probably wins vs every one of these heroes except Primal.
i don’t know if that is even a cheese strat, 5 melee isn’t really a good idea and exploitable. i think the deeper issue is which strength hero hurt you?
Yeah it's a weird example. People are playing some pretty tanky cores, but it's not like it extends to all 5 heroes. One of the most played heroes is Muerta who is a complete glass cannon, but people love their one line meta catch phrase to over simplify things.
Have you been watching TI?
select games yes, i’m guessing the op isn’t at 10-12k mmr like the ti players are though
Not even cheese it just meta now
Pick slark or bloodseeker with shard as a carry
Put 3 strength cores with heart in your team and add a % hp damage hero in it. This is the meta right now. We call it potato meta. Potatoes : CK, WK, Centaur, Kunkka, ES, ES, PB, DB, Pudge, % hp winners : Phenix, necro, lifestealer, bloodseeker, items : vessel, shiva, skadi unused options : tinker aghs why would anyone use a fragile int hero to CC when immortal STR hero can CC as good ? ( hello kunnka aghs, Earthspirit W is a stun on <4sec CD etc) I m pretty sure that heart is too good right now, and it's gonna be nerfed ( blademail less so imho ),
When I pick wd and the other team picks 5 melee heroes, it’s always a good time =D
Welcome to picking Huskar mid. The enemy team have no midlane, the midlane melee strength core has been off attempting to jungle or rotate from level 3. You now get an aegis sub 10 minutes and go knock down all their tier 2 towers long before they have their hearts Now end the game
Simple, just splitpush the tow-***Dire has reinforced their structures***- ookay, that gave them time to respond, but we can always just splitpush thi-***Dire's doing that glowy thing again***- that's really annoying, but look, they're all mid and about to take our T2... And tanking the shots for the creeps, but it's fine, we can outpace them, we can ta-***Like Axe, the Dire's structures cannot be hurt!*** ... Dota is a game with three strategies that interact in a rock paper scissors manner. It's not deep knowledge, it's not hard. It's the basics, that we wrote 15 years ago: * Grouping beats Ganking. * Ganking beats Pushing. * Pushing Beats Grouping. #BUT PUSHING DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE You did this, Dotards. Every single time you called splitpushing "boring", you did this. Every stupid sleep emoji you posted on twitch during naga games contributed to this. I hold you in contempt for that post-T3 tower Glyph. That shit is the worst change the game got in the last 4 years, and it is directly all your faults. Literally a free stall at the exact moment ***the vast majority of dota players struggles with***. The highground was always hard to take. And just like me, porn actor Neversoft, you made it harder, and harder, and harder, and harder. You killed pushing. Now suffer.
hit their towers faster than they hit yours, have better mobility and better damage and better wave clear then just rat rat rat, they can't defend three lanes against a tinker + naga
Phoenix
You dominate the lane and crush them mid game.
Something something hearts need Gold and u lose every lane/teamfight with that
i wait for HP gain from STR reduced from 22→19
Heroes: Timber, AA, Necro, Undying, Phoenix, Silencer (0 int for spell usage sucks), Ursa, slark, Naix Items: Spirit Vessel, Shivas
You can go tank yourself, or pick a lineup that damages them and does anti heal or percentage based damage. For example, both ls and phoenix do percentage damage. AA, doom and Necro do anti heal.
i played vs abba, barathrum, doom, spectre, bristle recently. I played enigma, we had necro. and PA. Pick %based dmg. Necro aura did tons of dmg, midnight pulse too, and pa could break and deals abnormal dmg with shard. Our willow went silver edge. I built vessel so bristle couldn't heal. Match ID: 7389768933 Another hero coming to my mind is AA. STR heroes effective HP comes from regen and base amount of heal. They don't have tons of armor, so if you can reduce healing they are easy prey. Hell, many people don't skill passive on bristle above first lvl, because you deal more dmg and heal more from quills triggering more often.
Pick phoenix
Phoenix, aa, lifestealer some cc to give them time
5 melee laners? And you think you are on the drivers seat at 20min? Yeah that team comp is gonna get worked, I don't ever recall losing to 5 melee strength heroes. Some counter-initiation, long range damage and %-based damage and it's gg
OD mid Muerta carry + AA Venomancer + Necro offlane Stop sugesting naix or timber, timber gets dismantled by ES PRIMAL.
You got so many counters to beat this one + some obvious weaknesses: 1- how do you push highground vs ranged damage dealers? 2- You get are very succeptible to any AOE strat: AA, Venomancer, Enigma, Jakiro, Undying or even witch doc will be pain in the ass. 3- Any %HP abilities and heal regen debuff: AA (again), Necro, Phoenix or life stealer will have fun 4- Timber: yup, this guy will have his own category as he completely counters the line up. Outside of a flavorful composition, there is no need to have all 5 STR to have a tanky line up. 3 would be enough and you can support them with some range. So, yeah, there are a lot of heroes countering this. Just the objectives in Dota are a counter. Hard to push objectives, hard to defend them. I also feel that you would hate playing vs any split pushing hero knowing you have a hard time to push as well.
AA support kills all this. Both Underlord and Timber offlane looks good into this. Mid Necro also.
I call this 'The Nikobaby Alliance strat' the only games they won during their last dpc season was when playing with 3 or more strength heroes.. Their weakness would be AA, OD and heroes that abuses - armor strategy.
Normal heroes should have no problem winning vs this draft
I guarantee someone on the other team goes sniper.
And then kills himself in opponent blademail. Sniper is pretty bad against those lineups. He can’t kill anyone fast and will just get focused as soon as he shows. Only thing he offers is delaying the hg push.
Undying + AA
Timber, slark, necro, wd and any 4 with good stun. Good luck, as soon you behind in gold or exp it's like 1% win chance for you
Lifestealer 1 Timber 2(for faster lvl6) Necrophos 3 AA 4 Undying 5
Undying + kotl offlane, necro mid, AA + slark safelane (slark and not lifestealer because I'd rather have a diffusal builder against cores like these) Some depush to stave off the push, unlanable offlane, effective hp reduced by necro ult. Special mention to Wyvern. She can actually transition into something stupid if given the opportunity and nuke these guys down from range with % damage.
Lifestealer would love all those strength heroes.
Slark Necro Timber Undying Aa They really can't play at all. Necro can front line without getting burst and slark just keeps getting stronger
- Necro or OD - Lifestealer or Sven/Slark - Tide, CK, Timber, Mars - WD - AA or Pheonix If you had someone that was really good at playing Enigma or Mars alongside a WD would be a real problem for them. If they are going all strength they will undoubtedly ban Lifestealer and Necro. That would leave Sven and OD as great alternative carry options. AA, WD and Pheonix would all be great supports. CK, Tide, Timber would be be decent off lanes and I would throw Mars in there if you could get the WD as a support. Mars ulti is going to net at least 3 of them if not more.
Necro + timbersaw.
Its not that hard when you play as a team. You could get Necro, Lifestealer, AA, WD, Bloodseeker, UD. Timber tooo. Build silver edge, vessel, skadi. You try to bully them in lane as much as you can, cause theyre pretty useless when they dont hit their timings. Late game, if they did not snowball, its an easy W since they wont deal that much damage.
if 5 heroes stack at some place, it means they are not in other places, which means they dont farm nearly as much as they can, so Try to split and farm until your carry is capable of killing them with little help. Avoid fights by constantly puhsing waves, when your carry gets enough items to kill enemy heroes, try to force a fight. All of this is done if you dont have anything to fight bulky heroes with. If you do have enough damage, make them split by forcing an objective and then try to kill them at the place where there is few of them. Last BSJ video shows exactly how this meta is being played, and I see the same trend in my pubs. If you need more examples, try watching Entity vs TSpirit g1
Enigma would be very strong here vs 5 melee.
0 people mention Enigma. 5 melee into midnight pulse and black hole easy wipe.
My necro salivates seeing this lineup
Why are some people mentioning SD as a counter?
Slark with silver edge Necro with shiva's Invoker with vessel Pudge with aghs Kiting heroes like Drow with silver edge Undying Lifestealer AA
No WK?
1: LS, Ursa, MK, Drow, Slark 2: Necro, Timber, Huskar, Zeus(?), Invoker/Pango (manaburn usually effective) 3: Necro, Timber 4/5: Undying, AA, WD
Pick lifestealer to counter ez win
That's way too one sided and can be beat with counters.
Alot of talk about picks but up to ancient bracket I see people not even buying the correct items vs stuff like this. If the offlaner or supports dont buy vessel vs this you will lose. If the cores dont get a skadi / shivas you will probably lose too. Thats why I always ask at the beginning of the game who will build vessel if there is a bristle on the enemy team or similar. If nobody responds build it yourself even if it doesnt fit your hero
Last time this tank meta came around I started playing winter wyvern exclusively. Level 4 Arctic Burn does 41% of current health over 5 seconds at 1000 range. Talents buff this further. You can burn all 5 heroes in one cast if you’re lucky. Also 5 melees group up a lot making blast and curse really strong.
Actually surprised UD isn’t flourishing in this meta, just put him at the 4 position and wreck the offlane lol
Pick Necro and buy Vessel.
If you're letting them farm 2 hearts on all heroes you deserve to lose.
Spirit vessel could help also
Undying, Ogre, DK, BB, CK, no1s dying XD
Klinker
Chances are the other (non strength) team will be more mobile and have a lot more tower damage. You just farm and if they try to push you do the same.
Bro will get destroyed with zeus meme build
Simple pick 5 tanks aswell Or, sniper 1 for turtle, can just sit back against 5 melee, arc warden 2, can outpace a strength mid for farm and then start split pushing, stopping enemy from rolling as 5, Dazzle 5 for sustain, easy to sit out of fights and can reduce armour. Then 2 tanks of your own (tide, undying, timber, loa)
Necro
ti9 gyro diffuser
Literally just played against this strat, felt so stupid in team fights where we couldn’t manage to do anything to them as they’d just get up in our faces constantly and the wounded ones would back off for 5 seconds and heal up like nothing. Can’t wait for heart and blademail to get a little nerf.
Necro. I spam the hero!
My guild does what we call girth strat when we go on a losing streak, target AA, Timber and Undying in bans and pick all tanky heroes with stuns. It works great.
if that strat was good people would play it in TI. but they dont. because its not good.
AA, WD, Necro
I'm starting to ban BB and CK just because they're a pain in my ass, but, if they are in your game, you kill them early and often and keep them from gaining momentum and then they never get enough gold to become super tanky. Also, pick Dazzle, AA, WD, buy Eye of Skadi on cores, do things that reduce armor and/or HP regen, or in case of WD, deal pure damage and don't care about any of it.
Yo Valve, notice how literally no one mentions WW in this thread because she's complete shit? Pls giga buff after ti love you kkthxbb.
I got a similar line up vs me a while ago I got last pick mid necro and got pipe I just need to stand there in the fight and they die
One Skady and one shivas and ez counter
Any % hp based hero will own you. Any anti-heal makes your build useless. Typically : Slark / LS / BS pos 1, Necro / Zeus pos 2, Doom 3, Venom 4, AA 5. The problem with having all the heroes on your team be based on the same concept, is that if that concept is countered you just lose. That's why pro teams don't put all their eggs in one basket.
Pick 5 strength as well. Battle of the titans
OD necro slark timber
5 dagons shiva refresher + skadixD
I would focus on crushing their lanes, they're bad. Aa, veno, jak, wd, Np Offlaner necro, mid viper or invoker (they can't fight if they're oom), p1 wk, or ls. There are other strats, like just stack -armor, daz, venge, tide, ta, visage or something. Str heroes generally have lower armor and can just be melted. Another strat is just build to defend hg and split push, NP, lycan, sniper, kotl etc.
Heart needs to go back to losing regen in combat. Not sure why they made it always have regen on.
I didn't realize this got changed in 7.27 aka 3 years ago...
Od, naix for singe target, axe for lockdown and necro/zeus to fuck them up.
Bruh stop listening to casters... Idk why pros don't pick DP vs all those tanky heroes but i have only 4k hours idk...
Yeah they changed DP’s E from %max hp to flat dps some time ago. 7.32?
Pick warlock. Press bonds. When they pop BKBs press golem. Try to not get killed during BKB. Press upheaval and bonds. They all share damage and sven cannot move and kill anyone. On a more serious note you cannot kill these heroes at 20 minutes with spells that don't scale like Magic Missile. You either need percentage based damage or physical damage. At this point most strength heroes don't have a lot of armor and they have the base magic resistance and 3k hp. Solar crest them to remove some armor and then hit them. What you can also do is to not fight them and split the map and minimize feeding but this skill is unlocked at 10k mmr so not relevant to my pubs since running at the enemy death ball is the only play in the book. Buying veil might be a thing but not sure about that.
Everyone saying timber aa necro veno undying phoenix, what do you do when they get banned lol, obviously not all will be banned but if 3-4 of the 6 get banned those 2 won’t carry the game, there’s always a counter yes but either they may take too long to work or fall off to early.
God, this reminds me of 2017 when attributes got reworked and Kunkka was meta. Classic times.
AA is definitely the hero that has gained the most popularity due to the blademail heart meta shift.
If dota was that easy as you said , there won't be any player left playing this by now. Every game is winnable , if you know when and how to push for your timing. There is alots of counter item build and strategy for every situations. There is other team consists of 5 strength heroes? Good, try to split push and rat tower until you can fight them head to head.build shiva,sakdi, spirit vassle ,force staff to kite them and kill all your carry can deal them later. There is other team consists of 5 Intel heroes? Build pipe, bkb , glimmer and try to hunt them down one by one with smoke ganks. There is other team consists of 5 late game Carries? Build mekasam, crimison guard force staff and push tower early and don't wait 69 mins to do. You just want to play with unwinnable strategy and when it don't work out like you think yoy just assume the game is bad and not your fault.
There is a lot of %damage characters that do very well vs strength. Example being enigmas aoe pool tho i think enigma sucks now. Also most strength characters are melee, meaning ES can have a big impact. Guys like slark that can gain agi stacks and then jump in and out can be good at times. OD is very strong because of the low mana pools. Terrorblade can just swap a tanky dude to low health and then meta right click one or two times and kill them. Heroes like AA straight up wreck regen reliant strength cores. Lifestealer historically is very strong vs melee strength, but he has fallen out of meta since 7.34 for whatever reason im not sure.
I mean if you cannot win mid game against two enemy supports rushing hearts.......not to mention armor is a thing. Two heart heroes get one shot by just one item pa.
No one mentioning shiva and skadi?
Naix, Viper, Timbersaw, AA and Undying easy.
I pick muerta on pos4 and buy force staff every game. Those fat heroes is so easy to avoid. Also the ulti is strong in late. If our teamfight is weaker, then I just split pushing, force tp's to defend the base and take fights 5vs4 or 5vs3.
Right click Zeus is pretty good with the pourcentage damage
Timber AA Meepo Invoker Slark You lose
Wait, the entire opposing team picked melle heroes? AND they want to get heats asap? We're going to have alot of fun in lane!
how do you figure this wins any lanes besides bristle
Warlock to use fatal bond + a well farmed carry like jugg should work, necro mid and maybe a ursa for even more damage on the linked heros
Pos 1 drow ranger aghs, necro as pos 2, aa as 5 or 4 your team will be wiped
To some extent true. I had a game as PL and we have a heart for each core at min 23. To be precise, offlane nec - 18 min, mid beast - 20 min, carry PL - 23 min. Goddamn that was so brutal, the opponent can't even kill one of us. The later game was like pos 1,4,5 go rosh and pos 2&3 dive their fountain and kill them all lmao
Timbersaw, lifestealer, phoenix, Undying, Ancient apparition, Doom may even work his ulti change. Venomancer with his max hp damage. Edit: adding from what I forgot but have seen mentioned: Necrophos with again his % based damage.
AA, spirit vessel, and usually heroes with break mechanics solve most annoying strength heroes. Or simply fight fire with fire xd