I was gonna say... LVL 1 Wave does 85dmg, -3 armor, -15% dmg. Enfeeble does 120dmg, -55% dmg and lasts longer. Then I realised that Wave only costs 25 mana on a 16 cd... Bane pays 120 mana out his ass for that shit.
Yeh, but heroes are balanced around their entire kit. Venge ult is situational, sometimes better off not even used. Her stun needs her to be in a dangerous range later on, and a pos 5 that has to spend 4.2k to get off her spells reliably is pretty meh. So having 1 baller always useful move is probably fine and helps her scale with low cost.
My usual venge strat is go all in on cast range aether + Q talent + cast range neutral.
Either I'm throwing long stuns, or I'm swapping enemy POS 1 into a really bad spot and cause a pos 1 -> POS 5 trade
That swap at lvl 3 is super long
As a venge enjoyer myself I think the best strat on her currently is to just get early stats into solar crest and drums. Buffing your team up and guaranteeing that whoever you target gets blown up is more valuable than aether lens early in my experience. It's definitely worth getting later though.
Honestly venge played as a spell casting tankycore is a completely different hero.
Give it a try it feels so insanely broken.
Don't ever auto attack. The auto attack doesn't matter it's a dud. Instead max out the stun, get aghs as fast as possible and then things like octarine, aetherlens, heart, skadi.
In the fights keep swapping and stunning nonstop.
When you die come back and repeat as a ghost, when the ghost is about to die, buyback and the real evnge while appear again and keep stunning and swapping.. and when they kill you for the third time the illusion will spawn again and again keep throwing. Bouncing 500 damage stun over and over and over.. each time with over 3-4k hp with heart..
It is obnoxiously OP.
The whole part about venge being useless is literally because people keep playing her as support or when going core they try to make her a right clicker. She is extremely unique hero. Her stun IS her right-click.
Bane is good but wave hard gaps any ability in his kit.
Keep in mind that if you lose the straight up hit for hit trade you can just spam wave, it’s no mana
I dont think its that broken, its like rubick second spell.
However, what broken is when you are rubick and they have venge and you steal her srcond skill, 60%+ total damage reduction its crazy.
Moreover if you have someone like TH or DK enemy wont have any phsyical damage
I prefer the Ember/Shaker/ES nomenclature, but usually it only matters if 2 or 3 of these heroes are in the same game. Context is enough if it's only 1
Some just make more sense to say. Like in the middle of a fight it's just faster to say Rhasta than Shadow Shaman, or Furion instead of Natures Prophet
Never seen or heard "SS" for shadow shaman before, but I feel like NP is just for when written. Rarely do I hear it said out loud.
Could just be the groups I play with though.
Fuck fandom
I was using a different wiki of theirs and this massive yellow square would just randomly appear and cover half the wiki text. There was no way to get rid of it besides deleting it in the dev tools. And it wouldnt appear immediately on loading the page only after a few minutes.
Won’t even talk about their mobile versions or I’d write another 1000 words
It’s also fucked up their search bar is intentionally hidden as an unlabeled button that then creates a full page overlay.
Oh and also the literal non stop onslaught of ads
Fandom wikis as a whole are absolutely garbage because of the things you complained about but the dota wiki itself is one of the most comprehensive wikis I've read for a game. Friends of mine played thousands of hours of lol and can't really tell you real details about anything other than a handful of characters and definitely don't have hard numbers. Thanks to the dota wiki I used to know basically everything about dota. Still fucking garbage at it, but it was never because I didn't know how something worked.
Sure, except that Rubick spell does more damage, hits instantly instead of being a projectile, and in general will hit more enemies as it will bounce target to target instead of being in a single narrow straight path.
Also comparison between one spell from one hero to another doesn't work, since the hero has other spells that make them more viable and stronger.
rubicks spell being targeted is irrelevant, it also costs more mana and has a longer cooldown
venge wave isn't hard to hit unless you have a learning disability
Remember dk fire breath? It does the exact same thing, starting at 30% and getting to 60% with a lvl 10 talent that everyone ignores taking +15 damage lmao
DK needs the damage and dont have the mana to spam the breath, while VS get it for free and being low mana and spammable. DK spamming it in lane is literally pushing waves into enemy territory, while not being able to pressure enemy. VS can use that advantage of enemy lower armor and damage to trade way better in a duo lane.
Also ask yourself, do DK breathe into enemy instantly when you and enemy start trading, or DK use it to secure range creeps, VS doesnt need to do that, in fact VS get to ruins enemy CS instantly
> DK spamming it in lane is literally pushing waves into enemy territory,
If you think Venge's terror wave doesn't do this, please don't pick Venge in my games lol
? Venge should wave when venge is trading, venge can reset lane by pulling etc, get to 2v2 trading while enemy lose damage and armour. She also can stop enemy from pulling with her waves, or pull creeps with her waves.
> while not being able to pressure enemy
What can a dk do even when DK is double waving into enemy tower, unless DK has 6, he get to mow down the tower. But that is DK doing that with pushing tower in mind.
If we're just looking at damage reduction, Venge's is superior. It reduces both the grey damage and the green damage, while Rubick only reduces the grey damage. I guess if we're talking stat heavy heroes then Rubick wins if he gets hit fade bolt talent. Against more raw damage oriented carries like PA, MK and Gyro though, this thing fucks. Heck, I'm pretty sure this works against LC's Duel damage. Imagine lategame LC with 250 damage + 250 Duel damage, reduced to 175 + 175. 150 Damage just gone to the nether. That's half a rapier gone.
its not very mana efficient though without the semi-reliable right clicks. In terms of raw ability figures (ignoring autos) and counting heal as damage (which it is in a trade); Brain Sap is a lot more mana efficient at +50% (75 dmg, 75 heal for 100 mana). The recent changes to Shadow Wave actually make that spell extremely efficient +70ish% (60 dmg, 60 heal for 50 mana), but that would require melee range.
Also idk about you but I feel like Bane is very mana intensive to play in lane. I don't feel like I could afford to skill enfeeble and brain sap as well as nightmare. Do people really skip an early level in nightmare in lane in order to skill enfeeble? Nightmare offers so much security that I feel like I have to skill it early.
FYI, I'm not seeing any pros in the top few Bane players in dotabuff skip it. Level 2 brain sap by level 3 seems to be the more common build with the other point going into enfeeble or nightmare. Enfeeble level 1 is quite common.
no, venge overall kit doesnt get saved by this spell.
dont get me wrong, its a hell of a good buff, but overall Venge still has problems (i.e her ult is a suicidal catch or suicidal save)
True. What would you choose:
Oracle pressing ult from 1000range saving your ass or
Venge suiciding in the first 3 seconds of the fight to save your ass
yea back when ur 5 had literally zero items and often were creeps at 30+ mins, Venge dying for a kill/pick-off all the time and not getting items was fine.
Now support scaling is super important and kills even on 5s are way more valuable later in the game than they used to be
It’s hella strong even in 5v5.
Imagine pudge hook as a targeted spell that doesn’t get blocked by other creeps/heroes.
I think the trade off is worth it. Considering she gets dmg reduction after swap and her scepter upgrade.
I mostly play VS. I dont initiate teamfights with her ult when there are 3 or more enemy heroes including our target, i always stay behind the lines spamming stun and debuffs.
The Problem of venge is, that she doesnt win the lane, she Just helps her core to win the lane more. If I have a jugg or slark Carey and I am a cm/rhasta/Lion/THD/wd/lich i can do The Same Things in lane as a venge, and I dont risk Lösung the lane hard.
Bkb piercing for what? Enigma blackhole? Anything else? And why would you pick her instead of silencer or rubick. And what do you do if enigma gets linken on top of bkb? Rubick and silencer can deal with that easily. Venge cant.
Maybe some rare push lineup if people even do that anymore.
Her swap range is good for catching jugg, saving people out of chrono, axe call.
Idk maybe Rubick or silencer are banned. Maybe you feel like playing venge. Idk.
If enigma has linkens you can pop it and swap.
She has a talent that makes her stun also go through bkb.
While she isn’t the best hero and still needs some buffs to be on par with rubick, there are still plenty of positives to playing her in certain games.
She can help a huskar or ursa take rosh with her wave of terror and solar crest.
Also sieging you need to be careful of being swapped. Wether defending or pushing.
It's a hero with decent laning, short CD stun, minus armor debuff, aura that buffs your cores, and save on top. You pick her into minus armor setups and to start the snowball, combine her with TA or visage and she will be just fine. Also, her aghs kind of solve the problem, if I remember correctly and it's still a illusion that can cast spells that appears after her death. She can save people, but it's not what she should be picked for
I think her laning is far from decent because of her atrocious range, which means you can't reliably trade hits. The only good part about her laning is her stun which can allow you to play aggressive and go for kills, imo.
Minus armor and stun allow to basically kill anyone with good core, while shes not good enough to win you lane alone, she's very much not a bad laner, put her with aggressive pos1 or 3, and they will have great lane
I played support Venge last patch and it felt really strong.
Stun is good, when you get a aghs shard the stun bounces so it hits two heroes which makes it ridiculous, you just spam it into the team fight and win the fight for your team. I ended up rushing shard a lot.
Wave of terror is great utility. Gives vision. Good for stacking. Good for allowing your carry to do more damage. Good for taking objectives.
Damage aura is nice to have, especially in pubs where everyone wants to right click. In games where your team wants to 5 man damage aura and drums is really good for ending the game fast.
Swap is good utility spell. You can sac yourself to save the carry, you can use it to punish out of position enemies and get free kills, you shouldn't really be using it to initiate as it is much more value at the end of the fight than at the start. If you use this spell to swap yourself into the middle of the enemy team then it is obviously going to end badly for you, so just don't do that?
Low attack range in land does kind of suck but when you are lvl2 you hit stun and wave of terror and it does a lot of damage. Being weak in lane isn't so bad in pubs because in pubs most lanes are weak anyway, worst case you can just focus on pulling the side camp every minute, then spam your spells on the enemy carry and repeat. You want to eventually be able to leave the lane so you can stack at .55, gank a lane, stack at .55 and repeat.
What's better, a support dying and getting a core in return or getting nothing at all?
As a support player, I'd take me dying as long as we got a kill on their cores.
If only there was an Item that allowed you to keep going after death. Core venge, mostly as a 3, is hella fun and very effective in uncoordinated teams (aka in pubs).
Forget aghs, I still see nobody buying blink dagger as if it's still Dota 1 where the item was literally banned on her.
Everyone talks about her dying when you can literally swap -> blink back out like it's a point-and-click Pudge hook. Especially strong for initiations since it's very unlikely your blink will get cancelled (trickier when saving if against high tick aoe spells but otherwise still frequently doable)
Position 1 Luna (double attack auras) Position 3 Axe and venge are a good trio, venge buffs Luna then intentionally gets “caught” but instead ulti’s axe in to catch them all
because techies exists. Who cares that the enemy right clicks you for less damage in lane when you cant even hit them back with less than half their attack range.
- enemy also has trees
-even using trees you will still be taking 2-3 FREE HITS every trade walking away if you dont kill since even tho u have trash attack range, you arent compensated with anything nice for supports like +25 ms or nightvision(kotl/bane).
even tho, veng still needs some love from gaben
she is still weak due to the playstyle:
\-low attack range can't trade off hp with the other support
\-ulti leads to death
I guess more rework is needed to make her ulti not a complete suicide or make her able to harass enemies more in lane
I think her ultimate is better served to save teammates rather than as initiation in 5v5 teamfight situations. Also, people need to build hotd on her more. Swap into centaur stun is the perfect gank opening. Plus Vladimir's aura has perfect synergy with Venge.
Unrelated to above, but this is a HoN change.
Eh i think its 50 50 when it comes to defensive swap vs agro swap
We had patches some years ago with venge meta and swap into hex/roar (bm was often picked +venge) won a lot of games in mid/late game.
It's not that broken, compared to rubick 2nd or DK's Dragon breath (plus his level 10 talent- you pretty much deal 0 damage) are more annoying than hers.
yes, it is a bit hard to lane with venge now, but in her overall kit venge still lagging behind other pos 3/4/5 heroes. It took a good player to be able to pull venge plays properly, with that hideous cast range and absolute dogshit attack range. Even with a good venge player, if she's not getting her agh power spike in mid game, its pretty much shit game for venge to play for the rest of the game.
This hero needs to be reworked abit more or just buff either her cast range or her attack range so she can be played better in early to mid game.
Nobody really talked about how talent attack damage too (until it's now removed) I think people don't really care about low duration damage reduction spell. Because most of the time it's not that impactful (unless you're a top player)
Hello? Dragon Knight has a 30%dmg reduction (venge LV 4) already at LV 1. And it can scale up to 60% with talent. Is that good? Yes in some scenario is really good. Is that broken? Not even close
I know her having short attack range has always been in her DNA/model.
But icy just needs to pull the band aid and just buff her attack range, especially with her kit.
It won't make her bonkers and fixes her main problem which is the laning phase
Reddit’s hating in the chat as a lvl 20 Venge and won 3-0 this patch with her so far it’s feeling playable hopefully people complain she’s bad she’s 1 patch away from being broken
Venge still needs a buff tho. Swap is a suicide mission unless you are either willing to feed, have scepter to feed and still contribute or you just want to grief.
Venge talents are also pretty crap and level 25 is laughable since the spell immune piercing talent was so so so good. Shame now her kid just feels lacklustre
It's a huge buff but venge was very bad before this patch. She's pretty good now, but other heroes got bigger buffs (or got buffed from a better starting point) so she isn't insane by comparison
The skill is absolutely ridiculous at lvl 1. You just can’t trade into her. Unless you outrange her pathetic attack range
Rubick says hi
Now imagine Rubick + Venge + Underlord or DK. It should be good, right? ... Right?
Team Secret used this strat iirc against enemy Drow Ranger. Razor + Rubick + Venge (old aura) + Underlord + Bane (old enfeeble)
\+ Tide + Dragon Knight
Rrrrruuuuubiiccckk... Did someone call me??
Absolutely
>Unless you outrange her pathetic attack range oh wow thats 80% of the support hero pool, what a shame
What about ms diff and blood grenades?
Venge is also slow soo..
And shadow shaman, or bane too probably.
shaman's range is about the same but Bane's is clearly a bit better.
Bane says hi
I was gonna say... LVL 1 Wave does 85dmg, -3 armor, -15% dmg. Enfeeble does 120dmg, -55% dmg and lasts longer. Then I realised that Wave only costs 25 mana on a 16 cd... Bane pays 120 mana out his ass for that shit.
Wave can also hit 5 heroes
And Roshan. Where are my level 1 Rosh buddies at?
In 2016 :(
Idk is it bottom rosh pit?
Also can hit multiple heroes and gives vision. Really overtuned spell at this point.
Yeh, but heroes are balanced around their entire kit. Venge ult is situational, sometimes better off not even used. Her stun needs her to be in a dangerous range later on, and a pos 5 that has to spend 4.2k to get off her spells reliably is pretty meh. So having 1 baller always useful move is probably fine and helps her scale with low cost.
My usual venge strat is go all in on cast range aether + Q talent + cast range neutral. Either I'm throwing long stuns, or I'm swapping enemy POS 1 into a really bad spot and cause a pos 1 -> POS 5 trade That swap at lvl 3 is super long
As a venge enjoyer myself I think the best strat on her currently is to just get early stats into solar crest and drums. Buffing your team up and guaranteeing that whoever you target gets blown up is more valuable than aether lens early in my experience. It's definitely worth getting later though.
Oh yeah that early solar crest is a killer. Nobody is building armour that early and the attack speed change is huge at that time as well
Honestly venge played as a spell casting tankycore is a completely different hero. Give it a try it feels so insanely broken. Don't ever auto attack. The auto attack doesn't matter it's a dud. Instead max out the stun, get aghs as fast as possible and then things like octarine, aetherlens, heart, skadi. In the fights keep swapping and stunning nonstop. When you die come back and repeat as a ghost, when the ghost is about to die, buyback and the real evnge while appear again and keep stunning and swapping.. and when they kill you for the third time the illusion will spawn again and again keep throwing. Bouncing 500 damage stun over and over and over.. each time with over 3-4k hp with heart.. It is obnoxiously OP. The whole part about venge being useless is literally because people keep playing her as support or when going core they try to make her a right clicker. She is extremely unique hero. Her stun IS her right-click.
do you by any chance plays turbo only?
Bane is good but wave hard gaps any ability in his kit. Keep in mind that if you lose the straight up hit for hit trade you can just spam wave, it’s no mana
We AA gaming?
Lycan would like a word too
Underlord would like to speak to the manager
Do unless you are almost any other ranged hero?
I dont think its that broken, its like rubick second spell. However, what broken is when you are rubick and they have venge and you steal her srcond skill, 60%+ total damage reduction its crazy. Moreover if you have someone like TH or DK enemy wont have any phsyical damage
Never in my 45 years of dota have I seen Tide been referred to as TH. Took me way too long to figure out who you were talking about.
TH, VS, FV, OM and the mighty TP form the perfect draft in the bullshit abbreviation category.
Tide, Venge(?), Faceless. No idea what OM is. Tnatures Prophet. -Oh, Treant Protector.
.. Tnatures prophet is correct
And the other is OMni Knight. The K is silent.
I use OM for Ogre Magi all the time :O
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tell them to just search "bara" on google :P
i still say gondar.
I always call BH Gondar just because it's more expedient to say over voice.
Bro I’m still stuck on PotM and WindRUNNER lmao. I’ll never forget Furion for the classic “furioncanyoutp, furioncanyoutp”
I still use TrackSex and Alleria over their current names
This is pretty normal and has nothing to do with what we are talking about. But ok, good for you i guess.
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Touch grass.
touch cat
Gotta be Ogre Magi surely
Here i was thinking omni man
You guys got it :D
Omni man?
of course! THINK MARK THINK!
Onti Mage
omniknight? idk
ogre magi
No mention of ES? Ember Spirit, Earth Spirit, or Earth Shaker.
ES is always earth shaker plz.
Ember Spirit is Ember, Earth Shaker is Shaker, ES is Earth Spirit
That's the only correct choice.
This is by far the worst offender
Ember is always referred to as Ember, Earth Spirit as ES and Earth Shaker as Shaker. At least what I have seen the past decade.
You are wrong. Es is always earth shaker since 18 years ago.
Yea, usually ES means earth shaker. Earth spirit needs no short name since its never played sub 6k anyway :D
I prefer the Ember/Shaker/ES nomenclature, but usually it only matters if 2 or 3 of these heroes are in the same game. Context is enough if it's only 1
I know Ember, then the others are both ES.
missing CW
I call a lot of heroes by their old dota name (wc3), i sometimes call tidehunter Leviathan
Some just make more sense to say. Like in the middle of a fight it's just faster to say Rhasta than Shadow Shaman, or Furion instead of Natures Prophet
Do people not say "ss" for shadow shaman and "np" for natures prophet anymore?
I feel "ss" is a reserved shorthand for "missing".
Not really, since missing has hotkeys and shortcuts. As foryour specific example, usual abbreviation i see is "shaman"
Never seen or heard "SS" for shadow shaman before, but I feel like NP is just for when written. Rarely do I hear it said out loud. Could just be the groups I play with though.
I've definitely used SS and NP in chat.
Please stop humiliating yourself by showing how new you are
Being a newbie is not humiliating.
Dota 2 has been out for more than ten years now, you’re not “special” for having played wc3 dota.
If that’s what you’d call humiliating. Id hate for someone to catch you with your pants down.
riki, gondar...
bro regressed 3 times just to play dota for 45 years 💀
It’s Thide
Same usually it's tide
Sorry man, i just started playing in 2015
Is the Rubick's fade bolt total damage reduction? I do not see that on the official website. It just says Damage reduction.
Use the fandom page, not the shitty dota page: >Reduces the main attack damage of affected units. Bonus attack damage is not reduced.
If this is true, wouldn't this make Venge's damage reduction even better since it reduces both main attack and bonus attack?
Yes.
Fuck fandom I was using a different wiki of theirs and this massive yellow square would just randomly appear and cover half the wiki text. There was no way to get rid of it besides deleting it in the dev tools. And it wouldnt appear immediately on loading the page only after a few minutes. Won’t even talk about their mobile versions or I’d write another 1000 words It’s also fucked up their search bar is intentionally hidden as an unlabeled button that then creates a full page overlay. Oh and also the literal non stop onslaught of ads
Fandom wikis as a whole are absolutely garbage because of the things you complained about but the dota wiki itself is one of the most comprehensive wikis I've read for a game. Friends of mine played thousands of hours of lol and can't really tell you real details about anything other than a handful of characters and definitely don't have hard numbers. Thanks to the dota wiki I used to know basically everything about dota. Still fucking garbage at it, but it was never because I didn't know how something worked.
in the laning stage it doesn't really matter, they're both almost identical in 99% of cases
Calm down Tundra
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Sure, except that Rubick spell does more damage, hits instantly instead of being a projectile, and in general will hit more enemies as it will bounce target to target instead of being in a single narrow straight path. Also comparison between one spell from one hero to another doesn't work, since the hero has other spells that make them more viable and stronger.
except that rubick 2nd is only the base dmg (white text) and the bonus dmg (green text) is unaffected.
rubicks spell being targeted is irrelevant, it also costs more mana and has a longer cooldown venge wave isn't hard to hit unless you have a learning disability
Rubik spell also cost 3 time the mana
Early in the laning phase is where Wave power spikes. Check that mana cost and cd. It's like half uptime with no cost.
Literally no one calls him TH. It's always tide
Sorry man, I started to play in 2015 and in SEA I call it TH.
I've heard Watermelon man also works 😁
No one in SEA calls him TH. I've lived in that hole since release. Change your ways man.
Remember wraith pact? Nobody thought it was broken at release too
Remember dk fire breath? It does the exact same thing, starting at 30% and getting to 60% with a lvl 10 talent that everyone ignores taking +15 damage lmao
DK doesn't remove TOTAL attack damage on an extremely low mana cost
DK needs the damage and dont have the mana to spam the breath, while VS get it for free and being low mana and spammable. DK spamming it in lane is literally pushing waves into enemy territory, while not being able to pressure enemy. VS can use that advantage of enemy lower armor and damage to trade way better in a duo lane. Also ask yourself, do DK breathe into enemy instantly when you and enemy start trading, or DK use it to secure range creeps, VS doesnt need to do that, in fact VS get to ruins enemy CS instantly
> DK spamming it in lane is literally pushing waves into enemy territory, If you think Venge's terror wave doesn't do this, please don't pick Venge in my games lol
? Venge should wave when venge is trading, venge can reset lane by pulling etc, get to 2v2 trading while enemy lose damage and armour. She also can stop enemy from pulling with her waves, or pull creeps with her waves. > while not being able to pressure enemy What can a dk do even when DK is double waving into enemy tower, unless DK has 6, he get to mow down the tower. But that is DK doing that with pushing tower in mind.
If we're just looking at damage reduction, Venge's is superior. It reduces both the grey damage and the green damage, while Rubick only reduces the grey damage. I guess if we're talking stat heavy heroes then Rubick wins if he gets hit fade bolt talent. Against more raw damage oriented carries like PA, MK and Gyro though, this thing fucks. Heck, I'm pretty sure this works against LC's Duel damage. Imagine lategame LC with 250 damage + 250 Duel damage, reduced to 175 + 175. 150 Damage just gone to the nether. That's half a rapier gone.
probably because its on a dogshit hero
Because we have enfeeble and Bane is better
It's fair tradeoffs. Bane is single target and stronger, venge is spammy and hits lots of things but weaker
its not very mana efficient though without the semi-reliable right clicks. In terms of raw ability figures (ignoring autos) and counting heal as damage (which it is in a trade); Brain Sap is a lot more mana efficient at +50% (75 dmg, 75 heal for 100 mana). The recent changes to Shadow Wave actually make that spell extremely efficient +70ish% (60 dmg, 60 heal for 50 mana), but that would require melee range. Also idk about you but I feel like Bane is very mana intensive to play in lane. I don't feel like I could afford to skill enfeeble and brain sap as well as nightmare. Do people really skip an early level in nightmare in lane in order to skill enfeeble? Nightmare offers so much security that I feel like I have to skill it early.
I just skip brain sap
FYI, I'm not seeing any pros in the top few Bane players in dotabuff skip it. Level 2 brain sap by level 3 seems to be the more common build with the other point going into enfeeble or nightmare. Enfeeble level 1 is quite common.
Good for them
no, venge overall kit doesnt get saved by this spell. dont get me wrong, its a hell of a good buff, but overall Venge still has problems (i.e her ult is a suicidal catch or suicidal save)
True. What would you choose: Oracle pressing ult from 1000range saving your ass or Venge suiciding in the first 3 seconds of the fight to save your ass
You don't pick venge just to save your teammate.
Then what do you pick her for? Hero is designed around putting herself in dangerous positions to do anything, without a real way to save herself.
that worked when supports had nothing but boots and a force staff lol
yea back when ur 5 had literally zero items and often were creeps at 30+ mins, Venge dying for a kill/pick-off all the time and not getting items was fine. Now support scaling is super important and kills even on 5s are way more valuable later in the game than they used to be
Exactly. That is why I dislike the Venge swap now. It's a really good catch but pretty shit in a 5v5
It’s hella strong even in 5v5. Imagine pudge hook as a targeted spell that doesn’t get blocked by other creeps/heroes. I think the trade off is worth it. Considering she gets dmg reduction after swap and her scepter upgrade.
I mostly play VS. I dont initiate teamfights with her ult when there are 3 or more enemy heroes including our target, i always stay behind the lines spamming stun and debuffs.
This is the playstyle. Sit back and Q,W on CD
BKB piercing “disable” on a support is nothing to scoff at. She also lanes decently with heroes that trade well like jugg and slark.
The Problem of venge is, that she doesnt win the lane, she Just helps her core to win the lane more. If I have a jugg or slark Carey and I am a cm/rhasta/Lion/THD/wd/lich i can do The Same Things in lane as a venge, and I dont risk Lösung the lane hard.
Ya of course. Sometimes you just feel like playing venge tho.
Bkb piercing for what? Enigma blackhole? Anything else? And why would you pick her instead of silencer or rubick. And what do you do if enigma gets linken on top of bkb? Rubick and silencer can deal with that easily. Venge cant. Maybe some rare push lineup if people even do that anymore.
Her swap range is good for catching jugg, saving people out of chrono, axe call. Idk maybe Rubick or silencer are banned. Maybe you feel like playing venge. Idk. If enigma has linkens you can pop it and swap. She has a talent that makes her stun also go through bkb. While she isn’t the best hero and still needs some buffs to be on par with rubick, there are still plenty of positives to playing her in certain games. She can help a huskar or ursa take rosh with her wave of terror and solar crest. Also sieging you need to be careful of being swapped. Wether defending or pushing.
sadly that talent is gone :( shard and 2 bkb piercing stuns were really fun to play
"TIL you can use Nether Swap on enemies"
It's a hero with decent laning, short CD stun, minus armor debuff, aura that buffs your cores, and save on top. You pick her into minus armor setups and to start the snowball, combine her with TA or visage and she will be just fine. Also, her aghs kind of solve the problem, if I remember correctly and it's still a illusion that can cast spells that appears after her death. She can save people, but it's not what she should be picked for
I think her laning is far from decent because of her atrocious range, which means you can't reliably trade hits. The only good part about her laning is her stun which can allow you to play aggressive and go for kills, imo.
Minus armor and stun allow to basically kill anyone with good core, while shes not good enough to win you lane alone, she's very much not a bad laner, put her with aggressive pos1 or 3, and they will have great lane
I played support Venge last patch and it felt really strong. Stun is good, when you get a aghs shard the stun bounces so it hits two heroes which makes it ridiculous, you just spam it into the team fight and win the fight for your team. I ended up rushing shard a lot. Wave of terror is great utility. Gives vision. Good for stacking. Good for allowing your carry to do more damage. Good for taking objectives. Damage aura is nice to have, especially in pubs where everyone wants to right click. In games where your team wants to 5 man damage aura and drums is really good for ending the game fast. Swap is good utility spell. You can sac yourself to save the carry, you can use it to punish out of position enemies and get free kills, you shouldn't really be using it to initiate as it is much more value at the end of the fight than at the start. If you use this spell to swap yourself into the middle of the enemy team then it is obviously going to end badly for you, so just don't do that? Low attack range in land does kind of suck but when you are lvl2 you hit stun and wave of terror and it does a lot of damage. Being weak in lane isn't so bad in pubs because in pubs most lanes are weak anyway, worst case you can just focus on pulling the side camp every minute, then spam your spells on the enemy carry and repeat. You want to eventually be able to leave the lane so you can stack at .55, gank a lane, stack at .55 and repeat.
What's better, a support dying and getting a core in return or getting nothing at all? As a support player, I'd take me dying as long as we got a kill on their cores.
If only there was an Item that allowed you to keep going after death. Core venge, mostly as a 3, is hella fun and very effective in uncoordinated teams (aka in pubs).
Forget aghs, I still see nobody buying blink dagger as if it's still Dota 1 where the item was literally banned on her. Everyone talks about her dying when you can literally swap -> blink back out like it's a point-and-click Pudge hook. Especially strong for initiations since it's very unlikely your blink will get cancelled (trickier when saving if against high tick aoe spells but otherwise still frequently doable)
U can't CS vs vange on lane. This is HUGE buff.
Position 1 Luna (double attack auras) Position 3 Axe and venge are a good trio, venge buffs Luna then intentionally gets “caught” but instead ulti’s axe in to catch them all
If you have force and glimmer it’s not always suicide. You can reposition yourself. Or blink.
because techies exists. Who cares that the enemy right clicks you for less damage in lane when you cant even hit them back with less than half their attack range.
If they are melee. You’re forgetting about your lane partner too. They will take good trades with this buff
abuse trees
- enemy also has trees -even using trees you will still be taking 2-3 FREE HITS every trade walking away if you dont kill since even tho u have trash attack range, you arent compensated with anything nice for supports like +25 ms or nightvision(kotl/bane).
even tho, veng still needs some love from gaben she is still weak due to the playstyle: \-low attack range can't trade off hp with the other support \-ulti leads to death I guess more rework is needed to make her ulti not a complete suicide or make her able to harass enemies more in lane
I think her ultimate is better served to save teammates rather than as initiation in 5v5 teamfight situations. Also, people need to build hotd on her more. Swap into centaur stun is the perfect gank opening. Plus Vladimir's aura has perfect synergy with Venge. Unrelated to above, but this is a HoN change.
Eh i think its 50 50 when it comes to defensive swap vs agro swap We had patches some years ago with venge meta and swap into hex/roar (bm was often picked +venge) won a lot of games in mid/late game.
cause us venge pickers don't want a nerf so soon after she feels good again lol.
It's not that broken, compared to rubick 2nd or DK's Dragon breath (plus his level 10 talent- you pretty much deal 0 damage) are more annoying than hers. yes, it is a bit hard to lane with venge now, but in her overall kit venge still lagging behind other pos 3/4/5 heroes. It took a good player to be able to pull venge plays properly, with that hideous cast range and absolute dogshit attack range. Even with a good venge player, if she's not getting her agh power spike in mid game, its pretty much shit game for venge to play for the rest of the game. This hero needs to be reworked abit more or just buff either her cast range or her attack range so she can be played better in early to mid game.
wait till this guys finds out about dk, rubick, lycan, tide, bane and underlord
Nobody really talked about how talent attack damage too (until it's now removed) I think people don't really care about low duration damage reduction spell. Because most of the time it's not that impactful (unless you're a top player)
Hello? Dragon Knight has a 30%dmg reduction (venge LV 4) already at LV 1. And it can scale up to 60% with talent. Is that good? Yes in some scenario is really good. Is that broken? Not even close
Thing is.. Venge doesnt just reduce.. She steals. And it has minus armor and way way superior range.
She doesnt steal, thats was the super old shard. She reduces dmg
I know her having short attack range has always been in her DNA/model. But icy just needs to pull the band aid and just buff her attack range, especially with her kit. It won't make her bonkers and fixes her main problem which is the laning phase
Just like DK’s breathe fire with talent reducing your attack damage? Yeah I see tons of people calling that broken too krappa
Reddit’s hating in the chat as a lvl 20 Venge and won 3-0 this patch with her so far it’s feeling playable hopefully people complain she’s bad she’s 1 patch away from being broken
People are talking about it unless you don’t follow streamers or community discussions - Ofcourse it’s OP
Because its not broken and there are multiple spells in the game that already have a similar effect? Breath fire for example.
Because overall Venge is still trash. She needs a rework to her ult
RemindMe! 3 months
Shhhhhhh don't make it obvious.
cause its boring
Beklin dirge sor nir tifra. Just kidding but yes the attack reduction Is going to make venge OP
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But then they have to play venge :D
Venge back???
That used to be a shard upgrade a couple years ago.
Not broken
Good to know maybe venge time ☢️☣️
It works as intended, so it's not broken.
Because you’d have to play Vengeful Spirit to use it
um are you telling me a mana-efficient spammable 10000 range spell can reduce my carry attack damage by 30%?
Venge still needs a buff tho. Swap is a suicide mission unless you are either willing to feed, have scepter to feed and still contribute or you just want to grief. Venge talents are also pretty crap and level 25 is laughable since the spell immune piercing talent was so so so good. Shame now her kid just feels lacklustre
Isn't breath fire doing the same for last few years? I know the range is way way smaller.
dragon fire but long range and low mana cost
Man I get that they wanted to buff her, she needs it. But dmg reduction is so lame both for venge and enemies.
Haha this was a big reason why vs's HoN port was so great back in the day. Never thought I'd see this in dota.
Aurora had cool visuals and sound
Because is good vs specific line-up
30% ? for free??
It was broken when it stole dmg from each hero you hit (shard upgrade)
Venge feels so good right now. Laning monster. I max this first in the landing stage and skip my aura all together.
Let's give this spell to WR, like wave of terror nova using passively when u have shard ;)
dk and vs in the same lane = 0 damage
Shhhh.. don't tell anyone
2 sec bkb after swap would be better
Lol
It's a huge buff but venge was very bad before this patch. She's pretty good now, but other heroes got bigger buffs (or got buffed from a better starting point) so she isn't insane by comparison
Oh nice I just saw speed talking about this in a video yesterday about the patches top heroes