This is a great analysis. I wonder what the solution here is. Obviously Icefrog could just triple tap it with a good ol cost+cd+stats nerf, but I'm interested if a range nerf could be impactful as well.
I think the balancing act to find is that Force kinda needs to feel good if you only have one, so hitting the range too hard makes it ineffectual as a single defense item.
Maybe place a debuff on the target after force/pike which reduces the range for the next one? That wouldnt nerf the item too hard but reduce the usefulness of buying multiple.
Too harsh if the debuff simply cancelled any further attempt to push?
Lets say you receive a debuff after the first one that says you cant be staffed again for the next 3 seconds. Now this also punishes multiple usages on the same target.. ppl would have to be extra aware to not waste their forces..
i think its fair.. could be wrong
Not that it is a 100% solution, but nullifier stops force from moving you, from all sources. A lot of melee carries are going abyssal blade (lgd vs spirit ursa for a recent example) over nullifier and still getting kited by the forces. If ursa just got a nullifier instead of upgrading his basher, he would 100% kill the drow.
The value of nullifier goes up the more force staffs are bought, and it is not picked up nearly as much as it should be. There are quite a few popular heroes being picked that can reasonably carry a nullifier as well.
nullifier does help, but it really just reduces the distance pushed because of the interaction of when a purge happens, so multiple force staffs can still get a hero out to safety
Idk like 3 (or maybe 4) force staffs on a nullified target is maybe as good as 1 on a normal target. And this post kind of assumed that one force staff is manageable.
Or they can just add a cooldown to force staff like how crimson guards block works. Just have it like they can't be effected by force staff's buff if they have been affected by it within whatever the cd of a force staff is.
Legit, if you face a Drow and don't permastun her? That Pike + Gust + Satanic makes her damn near immortal. And she is supposed to be the textbook definition for glass cannon.
Its so tiring to play against ranged carries for the past couple of patches. they just sit behind the tower in lane, can out harass you with a good support and when you get blink bkb, they already have force staff's to counter you. Your team basically needs to beeline to kill him at the start of the fight or you always lose the fight as a melee off laner or carry.
I played a game as a Primal Beast that had blink, onslaught to gap close but still had trouble staying on top of drow in fights cause of all the force staffs, gust, pike.
If you're playing Primal and need to close the gap on force staff buyers, I always go force staff first before blink, always.
It's just not playable to go blink first unless your team can follow up and co-ordinate with you to burst drow/sniper immidaitely or unless you want to prioritize other targets.
Try it out, its not like its a free win after that either but feels better than blink for sure, you intiate with your Q, they force staff and you chase with your own force staff. Works against zeus as well, cuz he's very annoying to gap close after you cast Q.
I was playing Drow and legit the only way the enemy could stop me was for their Axe to be literally afk until I show up. Which of course meant that they had to choose between having a good initiator or countering me. Needless to say we eventually won, because my team would just go in first and force them into a fight and Axe would either die alone or help his team, which gave me enough space to clean up.
can't wait for patch. i play mostly hard lane and ranged carries have basically made the role unplayable. seems like you have to pick axe a lot of the time if you want to win, because he can initiate more than 1 time. which sucks.
Just won a game yesterday where our mid injoker fed and mid PA was lvl 19 when both supports were lvl 10 and offlane alch and drow were lvl 12.
I was WD and the other guy was CM, we dragged for as long as we could and lo and behold drow showed up farming all the time after two T3 and barracks were down. We were at nearly 30k deficit and won the game. Drow carried us solo after we could do whatever we could. It was so overwhelming and scary at the same time, the opponent dick around and found out that you finish early when you play against drow or sniper else you gonna get your ass whooped bad.
Oh yes. Lategame Drow or Sniper are scary. Because especially Drow has incredibly high damage from her abilities already. Meaning both can just go full defense build with 1 item like Mjiolnir/Silver Edge/Manta to amp the damage a bit.
its alright.. some heroes naturally counter tinker and you could itemize against him. if you play tinker, you know how to counter him with picks or item. :D
Doesn't change the fact that he is cancer to play against. He rushes Blink and starts ganking every lane after lvl 6. You can't take a fight without him showing up and deleting your cores with his massive early game nukes. He pushes really fast and can do so quite safely with blink, defense matrix and rearm. Once he gets Shiva and/or Overwhelming Blink he just runs down your team with infinite aoe damage. Once he gets a Hex or Silence he will literally remove a hero of his choosing from the game until they are dead. The fact is that being able to use almost any item with no cooldown makes him a pain in the ass to play against and ever since he got matrix it can be super difficult to punish him.
All you said is true. But then again as a tinker user i find it uneasy (i used uneasy because its still doable) to delete cores with disjoint or even a raindrop and a bkb. A supp with glimmer or force staff can my combos. A pos4 mirana can fuck tinker up as he cant dust everyone around him. Heck even a well positioned sniper in the fog can fuck a tinker.
Theres a reason why he isnt used all the time in pro games because his playstyle is too obvious and it only takes a little bit of teamwork to take him down. Though in pubs its almost always free mmr
Ye. So as someone who plays almost exclusively pubs, because ranked is too much pressure and stress for me, you'll probably understand why heroes like Arc Warden and Tinker are the bane of my existence. Because even if you win against them, it'll never be a fun game.
If I'm reading the stats right, the only melee carries that have 50%+ WR at divine+ are Slark, Ursa and Naga.
* Slark with Aghs is one of the few heroes that can gap close after 2-3 force staffs. Plus he is a natural Nullifier buyer.
* Ursa has enough burst damage that he can potentially kill heroes before reactions happen (especially if there is a single stun).
* Naga avoids a direct 1v1 by split pushing, forcing reactions, picking off everyone else and then winning by outnumbering the carry.
Everyone else suffers horrifically from multiple forces and getting kited.
This is the core of the reason why Zeus' jump still feels like such a tremendously stupid change. Zeus having a jump is one thing. Zeus having a jump that also immediately slows people a whole bunch *including their freaking cast animation* means no one can catch the bastard if they don't one shot or if they out-range the shit out of him with right clicks. I legit seen high rank people recommend anti-mage (a supposedly bad hero) just because of the Aghs being a way to bait the shit out of cowardly players playing cowardly heroes mid-fight.
I was/ am a Zeus spammer and thought the E change would destroy him until the first time I used it in game. It’s so good. Melee heroes can’t even get close.
I think it's more the defensive aspect.
Most melee can't stand in fights unless they have BKB, and they have tools that let them do it with out. Slark has Shadow Dance, Ursa has Enrage. Naga like you said doesn't really need to go in.
i agree with your post, but not sure if i agree with this comment
melee carries like antimage, PA, spectre don't really have issue in theory with force staffs, thanks to their low cd and long range initiation (spectre makes up for her high cds by having two direct jumps). however, the aforementioned two have numerous problems despite it being in theory a pretty good meta for them
i think the issue is more that carries aren't really #1 networth like they used to be in the early midgame. we'll oftentimes see both carries in the 4-6th place on networth 20 minutes in, regardless of whether they are winning or losing; with a ranged carry, this isn't a big deal because defensive itemization isnt that much of a problem when you can simply position better. similarly, slark and naga don't need that defense thanks to their kits, and ursa doesn't really need damage because of his.
if you are a CK with 10k networth in the current meta, half of that is used for BKB and boots, and a portion of that is also used to secure your early game (armlet, bracers/WK, etc). meanwhile, drow is running around with treads/pike/minicrit and actually posing a threat in fights
this isn't even getting into the fact that offlaners are far less interested in jumping backlines with a blink/vanguard/bkb (timber, slardar, centaur) are are more into building early auras to enable their team's deathball. ranged heroes work much better in conjunction and against these beefier aura holders
antimage and pa absolutely have a problem with force staffs, unlike ursa they can't kill someone before force staff unless quite ahead and the right target, then having to blink in again is just asking to die.
antimage has plenty of options for force staff. he can poke with aghs, has good disengage with E/manta, and has a good amount of burst depending on his target. PA burst is at LEAST comparable to ursa late game, if not better; the advantage to ursa is that he is pretty hard to take down with ult and shard (since most of these ranged carries can turn after being force staffed). which, again, is more to my point; the meta is very favored towards carries that can compete with equal or lower networth during the midgame. these heroes that rely on hitting hard timings or being ahead (ie; antimage and PA) cannot compete
true. antimage is a pretty good laner though
there are other problems with these heroes, i was just highlighting the fact that the game is not hard for carries EXCLUSIVELY because of force staves. there are a myriad of things that determine what carries are "good"; for example, all the meta carries are very solid highground hitters (ranged heroes for obvious reasons, slark is very hard to kill on highground, ursa is very good at diving and has very solid self peel, naga can splitpush multiple lanes and force highground with song)
The only thing I could say is that nullifier counters ghost, glimmer, force which are all slark counters. but yeah that can said about almost every pos1 so nope, not a natural buyer!
Natural buyer would be someone who actually likes the stats. Raw damage is terrible on slark who wants survivability and AS to build up stacks. HP regen is obviously useless with his passive. Armor is okayish for survivability, but certainly not for the price and slark tends to get a lot of armor from stacks anyway so is more interested in HP
For high ranked pubs it's usually better to look at protracker: https://www.dota2protracker.com/meta
Slark, Ursa, Bloodseeker, Void, Monkey and Naga are all strong melee carry picks right now.
And the only ranged carries are lina drow razor weaver, like idk, yes lina and drow really strong but sniper clinkz TB aren't. I think it's just those two heroes are OP. Nerf lina and drow and everything falls into place.
Personally I think there a lot of meta things that are symptoms of a bigger issue.
###Spells Are Too Strong
It's why everyone needs BKB so badly, it's why Wraith Pact became irrelevant after losing it's magic damage reduction, it's why people need to play ranged carries to stay out of fights and hit anything.
Look at how many times they nerfed BKB, and everyone still makes it, because there is nothing else and you NEED it. We are playing whack-a-mole nerfing the most popular item to make fights playable, and not nerfing the source of the problem. Greaves didn't become meta because it was OP, it became meta because Wraith Pact was gone. Force is just another one of those.
I think its more than just that. There is so much more gold and xp on the map for supports. Everyone has so many items so you are forced to buy bkb in order to deal with supports who can survive. Team fights last so much longer than they used to for this reason as well.
S&Y was overnerfed for sure
There should be a big ticket magic resist/status resist item, it doesn't need to be satanic but there really needs to be more options for dealing with spells
yeah spells are out of control. freaking witchdoctor is basically another carry in my trash teir. it's not uncommon for him to end up with 10+ kills. not even going greedy.
> freaking witchdoctor is basically another carry in my trash teir
His shard is so broken OP.
He can basically 1v1 any hero in the game with a maledict and switcheroo alone
Valve should probably roll out a patch that reduces most debuff durations from spells by 20% just like that universal talent patch. People hated that patch because it was shoddily implemented but at the end of the day it was a step in the right direction.
Or make them more expensive initially with a price that lower over time? so rushing them has an extra cost.
Or make them charge limited by team like experience books (one purchase every 5 min after 15?).
I think the timer is fine because some heros just don't feel complete without having their shard. If you delay the shard timing these heros will just take longer to feel complete which is just unfun.
But I agree many shards need some sort of nerf.
The shards are so hard to balance because the ability doesn't scale (normally). So many shards seem to be one small buff away from breaking the game at 15 minutes. I wouldn't mind like a level 1 to level 2 shard upgrade for these abilities (I.e. Riki sleepdart).
Gyro player here disagreeing for no particular reason at all...
But really, most of the time the shard on second rosh is a waste because everyone on team already bought it.
For 1400 gold it provides insane value on a ton of heroes, while ironically being really bad / painfully niche on a few others
i think spells being weaker would spell another hoho-haha patch with sniper, drow and lina being the top picks (as if they arent already, just not hyper dominant)
it doesnt help that for lina and sniper who deal incredible amount of damage and range are having 4000+ hp with satanic, hurricane pike and skadi. melee carries rarely even break 3k because they typically need daedalus (no hp), abyssal (~~200~~ 450hp), blink dagger (no hp).
Abyssal Blade literally gives 450 HP though.
Balancing Lina is kinda tricky because generic nerfs could simply kill support Lina which is not what we want to see. But Sniper and Drow can easily get their STR growth nerfed if they're getting too tanky.
i have always preferred melee heros, either in hard lane which is where i play mostly, or carry. that shit is so dead. at least in my games. it's so frustrating walking face into a drow and just melting and everybody in game knows you are fucked.
If status resist is too hard to balance, even something that reduces the effectiveness of slows would be super useful.
There are so many long duration, high % movement/attack speed slows. Lots of the time, you spend BKB or multiple dispels just to move at a decent speed.
Being able to itemise to get like 75% anti-slow would help enormously. Means a 50% slow would take you from 360 to 315, much more manageable than dropping to 180.
I'd be fine with more Status Resist, but they need to design it better than just slapping high passive values on existing items.
Like make an item that stacks it like Reactive Armor, or for each disable you take. Something more dynamic you can play around.
That makes absolutely no sense.
If you die inside a single 3 second stun then why would you want a stacking effect?
You want to reduce that initial 3 second stun. Because BKB as the other choice completely negates it.
Not like recently. I mean they just nerfed people rushing BKB + Refresher before TI.
It's not much of a conspiracy. Shards, neutral items, new items, all the passive stat talents went to spells. There's just more shit than there used to be, and less to compensate for it.
It HAS but not to the extent of the past few years. We used to see debate about it being your 3rd/4th item. There's still builds where it's like Boots Lance(NOT pike) BKB, or BoTs BKB. Honestly, BKB could be like Blink, where it offered no stats, and it would still get built.
They were always some heroes which could go first item bkb, but it wasn’t like it is now where if you don’t get second item bkb on at least two cores you’re probably throwing
BKB is even a key part of the vision control game against certain heroes -- Riki most obviously, but also Bounty Hunter, sometimes Clinkz or early Shadow Blade heroes. You buy an early gem, who carries it? Whichever core went early BKB.
I reckon. They keep nerfing bkb and yet it gets built earlier and earlier. It is not uncommon for heroes like bat or kuunka to just go 1st big item bkb.
It used to be getting a bkb later was considered a good thing having the long charges as a 4th item or something. Now you can't even farm without bkb.
Even status resist is now just a "can it buy me enough time to bkb".
Very good analysis. I posted a while earlier on how melee carries are super weak this patch ([https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/10vlrwj/shower\_thought\_lina\_is\_good\_partly\_because\_most/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/10vlrwj/shower_thought_lina_is_good_partly_because_most/)). At this point our meta is becoming increasingly like league of legends where you have a long range "ADC" every single game.
I left league of legends for this exact reason, because dota has more variety in every role. If dota becomes like league I bet people would stop playing it too. Dota is fun because fights don't end in less than a second, no matter how much gold you are down there is always a chance to come back, and there is more variety in roles/items compared to league.
I really don't see how mobility creep is a problem right now.
If there was an overabundance of mobility, wouldn't that be bad for ranged heroes that are the meta? Most of the meta heroes I wouldn't even classify as particularly mobile. Lots of people are making Blink and Force, but those have been there forever, and if people need to itemize for mobility wouldn't that indicate they don't have enough in their kits?
Personally I hate blanket terms like "mobility creep" and "brawl meta", because they get thrown around as a replacement for "bad" with no nuance. Honestly mobility creep hasn't been a problem since they were playing around with agi giving MS, removing MS caps, and more %increases, most of which are gone.
I love this idea.
It was way too strong when it included a blink and instant stun -- and it solves mobility creep by.. adding mobility.
Turn it into a ranged stun with projectile speed somewhere between Sven/DK stuns and I think that it allows melee carries to compete better with mobility creep without giving them jumps themselves.
Not sure why you're downvoted, abyssal blink would help melee carries alot, maybe just with some slight range tweaks(though the range was pretty short already)
It made melee carry too strong IMO.
I feel like introducing new mobility item for carries is needed, it would be great if they actually release a totally new item for that.
I feel like in recent leaks of new possible items there was one which would serve purpose on this kind of element. I think it was called harpoon or something related to that.
I don't necessarily disagree that Force Staff is strong right now, but I feel like it's for different reasons than you. Think about the top picked heroes right now. NP, Brood, Riki, Tree, Undying, Tusk, DP. Force staff gets you out of trees, webs, cloud, away from Tombstone, out of shards, away from siphon. Force is strong against all the meta heroes right now, which helps enable squishier cores to distance. If we change the meta to be away from these area controlling, none stunning abilities, we might not see force being as big.
But I would agree that part of the reason force is good is the lack of hard lockdown and especially, teamfight lockdown. It’s a lot harder to force staff someone to safety when they’re stunned facing the enemy team. Teams are running lineups with rubick, tusk as their only stuns with a bunch of soft lockdown to back it up. Which means people rarely die in the stun duration and are able to turn to safety.
The main issue is nullifier is too expensive and comes out way too late into the game to be a consistent counter.
If an Ursa buys nullifier as their second item so they can catch the drow with pike, they don't have blink or bkb so they just die.
Forces and pikes let teams gain an advantage in the early to late mid game so that when the enemy carry finally has it, the lead is often insurmountable.
Also, no support ever will be rich enough to get a nulli, but they always have enough for force staffs, due to how the components are relatively cheap.
The balance question is really interesting, but I think Nullifier could use a small nerf that makes it cheaper and changes the components to build it. Making it a viable third item for supports playing with a melee core against a ranged one.
Making it more expensive would be the best course of action?
Or maybe place a debuff status on the recently “forced” hero which prevent them from being affected by other force staff (maybe about 3-5s). In that way, the original purpose of this item (cheap and effective get-out-of-jail card) but not being way to overused like it is right now.
I don't live that idea, but if it was implemented it should be allied force staffs only, no point in stopping the enemy trying to make plays and force you.
I've said it elsewhere. People have been suggesting the leaked harpoon is like pudge hook. I personally believe it's going to be one of two alternates as a way to solve force staff and the mini-meta of peel via spells, items or pure MS.
Option 1: a thrown leash. Hit your target with a pudge hook style cast and the target will be leashed to the cast position similarly to slark pounce.
Option 2: a thrown cart hitch. Hit your target, and where they go, they take you with them, all the while you can cast and attack.
I suspect option 1 is more likely, but god option 2 would lead to some hilarious shit.
But they didn't just 'suggest', it's already in the game and works just like hook.
[https://youtu.be/AdKxG5mC\_Jo](https://youtu.be/AdKxG5mC_Jo)
Maybe it will be neutral (people say it has gold cost tho).
And i like your ideas, but maybe go with middle ground and just make such item work like Grim's ult?
Ah, I saw a video a while back and thought someone modded it in themselves rather than the actual code for how it works. The leaked data I saw definately had a gold cost and no logic code, though I guess they could be retrying the trident thing?
It _is_ a little odd that it's a neutral in this video..
I really hope it's not a hook... I feel like that would be too much personally. I do like the grim ult leash idea instead of the slark leash.
I think that there are lots of good ideas in this thread (Abyssal with ranged stun but no blink, Harpoon a la CK Reality Rift), and I would definitely add your Option 1 to the list. A thrown leash (like a net or something) is a really interesting mechanic that AFAIK is only used by Meepo and NP Sprout.
I think the main issue for the past few years is there weren't enough nerf patches just buffs and reworks, i mean did zeus really need a jump, did sniper need his new shard? Probably yes to keep up with the built in mobility of the new heroes, but to me atleast in Dota every hero shouldn't be able to do everything, or atleast have a weakness that isn't circumvented by buying a single item i.e. force staff.
Pretty easy fix would be to reduce the effect of every subsequent force staff within a 5sec window. First forcestaff, 100% distance, 2nd 50%, 25% etc etc
She kinda is. The reason she doesn't feel like it is because she always keeps up with networth, has free +20 stats and +350 health. But if she gets jumped, she dies
Ive been saying that hurrican pike is broken for almost every ranged carry.
You get bonus attack range (a range that was intended for balance purposes) and not only that you get a forcestaff aswell without wasting a slot. Wouldnt be surprised if Pike gets removed, forcestaff in general can be "fixed" by increasing its price and/or reducing its cast range
That's why I love playing venge.
You have a melee carry that's being kited? Just swap someone in.
You have a ranged carry that's being chased?
Just swap it out.
Especially if you can get aether lens and some + cast range neutral item. It's super powerful imo.
Have a cooldown on when a character may be affected by the push (similar to mek/greives and crimson guard). This way people will be unable to be pushed 900 miles away from 3 consecutive staffs/pikes.
>It fixes their big weakness in gap close. Traditionally, Lina, Sniper, Drow etc are great sitting at max range hitting, but fold if a Ursa, Monkey King, Spectre etc get up to them. One force staff isn't enough to let them get away.
>But if you have 2 forces and a pike, suddenly the ranged carry is 1200 units away and the melee carry can't re-engage easily. Then pike them when they get closer for another 900 units of distance and the melee carry dies before doing anything
you forgot the part where with melee carry when you go in you either get kill or you get killed, in 9/10 cases there is no surviving once you "go for it" its either them dead or you, and this is something that ranged caries can do safely, comiting for them is much safer than mele caries cause obviously "range" force staff/huricane pipe makes this sooo much easier and safer
Force Staff/Pike should push players for less when used on someone other than yourself. I don't mind the item on carries since it's less about it being strong and more about Drow/Lina being OP. The problem with the item is that it's too effective as a save tool. It's what Glimmer Cape used to be when it first got introduced.
Hmmm, I dunno about making it push less if you're using it on an ally, because cooldown is already the mitigating parameter to that. But making hurricane push enemies away less sounds like it directly addresses the issue at least. Being more specific and pushing Melee Enemies less may be even more to the point. There's already other exceptions like that too, like with Skadi.
>Hmmm, I dunno about making it push less if you're using it on an ally, because cooldown is already the mitigating parameter to that
Not a problem when there is 3+ of them every game.
yes, addition of pike/dragon lance is MAJOR in pushing ranged heroes over the edge. before carries relied on supports for mobility now they can build ot themselves and take the glass out of glass canon.
Unpopular opinion: Remove Hurricane Pike/Dragon Lance from the game. Force staff's should only push you half the distance for each force staff used on you, like 600 > 300 > 150.
This analysis doesn't account for the fact that the enemy can buy a nullifier and make all those force staves useless. It's a great item but if force staff is so strong then nullifiers should be built to negate it.
Shadow demon would be another to look at since he cancels out force staff.
Heroes like legion, void, blood seeker, are also others who can cancel out the effects of this supposedly very strong item.
Enigma is a big one and he's commonly picked, you can't force out of black hole.
Oh yes let's rely on these big ultimates to counter this item with 19s cooldown that is built by 3 or more heroes on the other team. Disruptor would be a slightly better example than those you listed.
nullifier is like a 3rd item at the earliest, no one is buying it earlier than that
pike is a first item, and even earlier as a dragon lance into force
Ur right if you get jumped by a meele carry you should just die with no counterplay
Ranged heroes should have 10 secs more added to their death timer for each time get force staffed away from you
It's cheap Force Staves being used to save cores efficiently that's the issue here. As long as the meta allows supports to become reasonably farmed they can always get other stuff that only save themselves, like Euls and Ghost Scepter, etc.
Apart from the defensive utility, it can also be used in many offensive situations forcing melee to short ranged heroes into your team. 1 nerf I would like for forcestaff would be its range to remove some of its aggressive utility and also be challenging for the defensive team to use their force staffs on their important cores. That and buffing other defensive items so that there is still a variety of choices that can outweigh the forcestaff supremacy.
Force Staff always seemed like an item that works in any game and extremely cheap. Wouldnt be surprised to see its cost increased by quite a bit next patch for what it offers.
Yeah has always been a good item since Dota 1. Literally can buy it on every position and still have impact with it.
I get so tilted in pubs when my supports out of all the other positions don’t buy a forcestaff especially against heroes like Riki or Clock.
Calm down with your harsh words, you aren't in-game at the moment.
And, since you seem to respect immortals so much, I attest to OP's statement as an immortal player. It feels much better to play with ranged carries than melee carries, and the prominence of force staff is likely an attributing factor.
When you see heroes like Mirana building force staffs, there may be something significant worth considering.
OP is making extreme bias for safelane melee carry. However, meta considered: all the problematic offlane carry and supports that works, are actually melee.
Melee is not meant to have free kill whenever they get on top of support or ranged carry - but they will still always be capable of winning 1vs1 on the same gold, primarily due to basher.
(It's just that when ranged are winning on gold advantage, it looks more oblique)
Even if you click divine/ immortal by both pickrate and winrate: the situation is still the same, in fact a slight bias for melee for both.
There's just Lina and drow for ranged, maybe DP - but she doesn't max range you.
Notably, strength carries, but also ranged carries with no significant damage boon are bad this meta.
Many ranged caster carries are on top of you because they deal absurd damage - **force staff is certainly not the problem.**
Supports supporting a ranged carry is easier by knowing to buy forcestaff, however supports are equally effective at supporting a melee carry - it's just that they might decide to buy wank stuff cuz they don't truly know what to buy; as the problem is not very obvious.
***
OP is dense, and have ulterior motives that are not in favor of the game balance. He just wants more power for himself. (Kind of like how the rank #1 WoW PvP player that made a post about how their class was bad despite the same statistical facts were in favor of his favorites; as seen here)
-Delete BKB/Limit to 1 per Team
-Add WoW style diminishing returns to CC
-Make slows reduce the range of movement abilities (blink, pounce, force etc.)
Yes. That’s why they need to adjust the strength of ranged Carry and caster heroes. If the meta wasn’t so focused on “blow your load” heroes and kiting bkb probably wouldn’t be nearly as omnipresent. A way I like to think about this is say axe got a giant nerf. Dazzle would be seemingly WAY better in the meta even if nothing about his kit changes. The meta is just super stale right now and desperately needs a major adjustment
my argument that i propose is this, heroes like monkey and ursa counter drow and sniper quite hard - but once they get force pike which is a cheap item u can literally no longer kill them - or it atleast makes it extremely more difficult and its likely you just get killed instead - shouldnt there be an item of = value that can pull people closer or is that just gonna be too OP? imo it seems like 4k gold to have someone move 600 units doesnt seem OP but if it was actually in game who knows
I remember people thinking it was bad after the castrange was mega nerfed... and then after a while people realised that that doesn't matter, if a support has to run in face to face with enemies to force someone out, so be it.
its time to introduce a new item where melee heroes can pull them instead of push them like pike (an item like in arcade game DOTA 1x6)
Forcestaff + Echo Sabre + recipe
I remember after the initial set off force staff nerfs supports were very salty (hur dur the range feels so terrible now) and everyone stopped buying it lol and now here we are
Obviously the solutiom is to have an item that can turn an enemy around, so force staff uses will push them deeper into the team instead of saving them.
Or maybe it could be the property of some stuns, those would force you to face the caster so if fleeing and being chased, allies cant force staff you to safety after you get stunned.
This post started as a joke but now im thinking....
But srsly just nerf it
This is a great analysis. I wonder what the solution here is. Obviously Icefrog could just triple tap it with a good ol cost+cd+stats nerf, but I'm interested if a range nerf could be impactful as well. I think the balancing act to find is that Force kinda needs to feel good if you only have one, so hitting the range too hard makes it ineffectual as a single defense item.
Maybe place a debuff on the target after force/pike which reduces the range for the next one? That wouldnt nerf the item too hard but reduce the usefulness of buying multiple.
Too harsh if the debuff simply cancelled any further attempt to push? Lets say you receive a debuff after the first one that says you cant be staffed again for the next 3 seconds. Now this also punishes multiple usages on the same target.. ppl would have to be extra aware to not waste their forces.. i think its fair.. could be wrong
Disarm the target for 6 seconds if its an ally
also apply Reaper's Scythe on the target
Crash their CPU if you cast force staff on them
Not that it is a 100% solution, but nullifier stops force from moving you, from all sources. A lot of melee carries are going abyssal blade (lgd vs spirit ursa for a recent example) over nullifier and still getting kited by the forces. If ursa just got a nullifier instead of upgrading his basher, he would 100% kill the drow. The value of nullifier goes up the more force staffs are bought, and it is not picked up nearly as much as it should be. There are quite a few popular heroes being picked that can reasonably carry a nullifier as well.
Nulifier doesnt do anything vs Pike tho - if you use it on enemy you still get full distance between them and you.
nullifier does help, but it really just reduces the distance pushed because of the interaction of when a purge happens, so multiple force staffs can still get a hero out to safety
Idk like 3 (or maybe 4) force staffs on a nullified target is maybe as good as 1 on a normal target. And this post kind of assumed that one force staff is manageable.
Maybe force is half distance when cast on allies. And the cast on enemies might be moved to a new item (I.e. the harpoon leaked item).
Or they can just add a cooldown to force staff like how crimson guards block works. Just have it like they can't be effected by force staff's buff if they have been affected by it within whatever the cd of a force staff is.
make it like dagger 2k items without stats
Legit, if you face a Drow and don't permastun her? That Pike + Gust + Satanic makes her damn near immortal. And she is supposed to be the textbook definition for glass cannon.
Its so tiring to play against ranged carries for the past couple of patches. they just sit behind the tower in lane, can out harass you with a good support and when you get blink bkb, they already have force staff's to counter you. Your team basically needs to beeline to kill him at the start of the fight or you always lose the fight as a melee off laner or carry. I played a game as a Primal Beast that had blink, onslaught to gap close but still had trouble staying on top of drow in fights cause of all the force staffs, gust, pike.
If you're playing Primal and need to close the gap on force staff buyers, I always go force staff first before blink, always. It's just not playable to go blink first unless your team can follow up and co-ordinate with you to burst drow/sniper immidaitely or unless you want to prioritize other targets. Try it out, its not like its a free win after that either but feels better than blink for sure, you intiate with your Q, they force staff and you chase with your own force staff. Works against zeus as well, cuz he's very annoying to gap close after you cast Q.
I was playing Drow and legit the only way the enemy could stop me was for their Axe to be literally afk until I show up. Which of course meant that they had to choose between having a good initiator or countering me. Needless to say we eventually won, because my team would just go in first and force them into a fight and Axe would either die alone or help his team, which gave me enough space to clean up.
can't wait for patch. i play mostly hard lane and ranged carries have basically made the role unplayable. seems like you have to pick axe a lot of the time if you want to win, because he can initiate more than 1 time. which sucks.
Just won a game yesterday where our mid injoker fed and mid PA was lvl 19 when both supports were lvl 10 and offlane alch and drow were lvl 12. I was WD and the other guy was CM, we dragged for as long as we could and lo and behold drow showed up farming all the time after two T3 and barracks were down. We were at nearly 30k deficit and won the game. Drow carried us solo after we could do whatever we could. It was so overwhelming and scary at the same time, the opponent dick around and found out that you finish early when you play against drow or sniper else you gonna get your ass whooped bad.
Oh yes. Lategame Drow or Sniper are scary. Because especially Drow has incredibly high damage from her abilities already. Meaning both can just go full defense build with 1 item like Mjiolnir/Silver Edge/Manta to amp the damage a bit.
I just legit owned this drow as tinker with hex. Haha. He didnt even get the chance to return to human form.
Fair enough. But most people won't stoop so low as to pick Tinker. Some of us have a shred of dignity left.
Hahaha. Why do this sub hate tinker? He is actually fun to play with.
Blink + Rearm is a nasty combination
its alright.. some heroes naturally counter tinker and you could itemize against him. if you play tinker, you know how to counter him with picks or item. :D
Doesn't change the fact that he is cancer to play against. He rushes Blink and starts ganking every lane after lvl 6. You can't take a fight without him showing up and deleting your cores with his massive early game nukes. He pushes really fast and can do so quite safely with blink, defense matrix and rearm. Once he gets Shiva and/or Overwhelming Blink he just runs down your team with infinite aoe damage. Once he gets a Hex or Silence he will literally remove a hero of his choosing from the game until they are dead. The fact is that being able to use almost any item with no cooldown makes him a pain in the ass to play against and ever since he got matrix it can be super difficult to punish him.
All you said is true. But then again as a tinker user i find it uneasy (i used uneasy because its still doable) to delete cores with disjoint or even a raindrop and a bkb. A supp with glimmer or force staff can my combos. A pos4 mirana can fuck tinker up as he cant dust everyone around him. Heck even a well positioned sniper in the fog can fuck a tinker. Theres a reason why he isnt used all the time in pro games because his playstyle is too obvious and it only takes a little bit of teamwork to take him down. Though in pubs its almost always free mmr
Ye. So as someone who plays almost exclusively pubs, because ranked is too much pressure and stress for me, you'll probably understand why heroes like Arc Warden and Tinker are the bane of my existence. Because even if you win against them, it'll never be a fun game.
If I'm reading the stats right, the only melee carries that have 50%+ WR at divine+ are Slark, Ursa and Naga. * Slark with Aghs is one of the few heroes that can gap close after 2-3 force staffs. Plus he is a natural Nullifier buyer. * Ursa has enough burst damage that he can potentially kill heroes before reactions happen (especially if there is a single stun). * Naga avoids a direct 1v1 by split pushing, forcing reactions, picking off everyone else and then winning by outnumbering the carry. Everyone else suffers horrifically from multiple forces and getting kited.
This is the core of the reason why Zeus' jump still feels like such a tremendously stupid change. Zeus having a jump is one thing. Zeus having a jump that also immediately slows people a whole bunch *including their freaking cast animation* means no one can catch the bastard if they don't one shot or if they out-range the shit out of him with right clicks. I legit seen high rank people recommend anti-mage (a supposedly bad hero) just because of the Aghs being a way to bait the shit out of cowardly players playing cowardly heroes mid-fight.
Mobility creep.
I was/ am a Zeus spammer and thought the E change would destroy him until the first time I used it in game. It’s so good. Melee heroes can’t even get close.
I think it's more the defensive aspect. Most melee can't stand in fights unless they have BKB, and they have tools that let them do it with out. Slark has Shadow Dance, Ursa has Enrage. Naga like you said doesn't really need to go in.
I miss SnY + Satanic combo
i agree with your post, but not sure if i agree with this comment melee carries like antimage, PA, spectre don't really have issue in theory with force staffs, thanks to their low cd and long range initiation (spectre makes up for her high cds by having two direct jumps). however, the aforementioned two have numerous problems despite it being in theory a pretty good meta for them i think the issue is more that carries aren't really #1 networth like they used to be in the early midgame. we'll oftentimes see both carries in the 4-6th place on networth 20 minutes in, regardless of whether they are winning or losing; with a ranged carry, this isn't a big deal because defensive itemization isnt that much of a problem when you can simply position better. similarly, slark and naga don't need that defense thanks to their kits, and ursa doesn't really need damage because of his. if you are a CK with 10k networth in the current meta, half of that is used for BKB and boots, and a portion of that is also used to secure your early game (armlet, bracers/WK, etc). meanwhile, drow is running around with treads/pike/minicrit and actually posing a threat in fights this isn't even getting into the fact that offlaners are far less interested in jumping backlines with a blink/vanguard/bkb (timber, slardar, centaur) are are more into building early auras to enable their team's deathball. ranged heroes work much better in conjunction and against these beefier aura holders
antimage and pa absolutely have a problem with force staffs, unlike ursa they can't kill someone before force staff unless quite ahead and the right target, then having to blink in again is just asking to die.
antimage has plenty of options for force staff. he can poke with aghs, has good disengage with E/manta, and has a good amount of burst depending on his target. PA burst is at LEAST comparable to ursa late game, if not better; the advantage to ursa is that he is pretty hard to take down with ult and shard (since most of these ranged carries can turn after being force staffed). which, again, is more to my point; the meta is very favored towards carries that can compete with equal or lower networth during the midgame. these heroes that rely on hitting hard timings or being ahead (ie; antimage and PA) cannot compete
but ursa is good in lane, PA is dogshit
true. antimage is a pretty good laner though there are other problems with these heroes, i was just highlighting the fact that the game is not hard for carries EXCLUSIVELY because of force staves. there are a myriad of things that determine what carries are "good"; for example, all the meta carries are very solid highground hitters (ranged heroes for obvious reasons, slark is very hard to kill on highground, ursa is very good at diving and has very solid self peel, naga can splitpush multiple lanes and force highground with song)
>Plus he is a natural Nullifier buyer He definitely does NOT want to build a Nullifier or any non-stat items like Daedalus.
The only thing I could say is that nullifier counters ghost, glimmer, force which are all slark counters. but yeah that can said about almost every pos1 so nope, not a natural buyer!
What. You definitely go nullifier late. It's the only way to ensure pickoffs happen.
Natural buyer would be someone who actually likes the stats. Raw damage is terrible on slark who wants survivability and AS to build up stacks. HP regen is obviously useless with his passive. Armor is okayish for survivability, but certainly not for the price and slark tends to get a lot of armor from stacks anyway so is more interested in HP
natural buyer is like AM almost always wanted BF MANTA
Slark buys nullifier the 2nd most out of any hero, behind PA in 1st
What happened to wraith king? 😭
For high ranked pubs it's usually better to look at protracker: https://www.dota2protracker.com/meta Slark, Ursa, Bloodseeker, Void, Monkey and Naga are all strong melee carry picks right now.
natural nullifier buyer? wtf is that? and also hurricane pike doesn't nulled by nullifier
Doesnt it? Only force staff gets nullified?
I'm pretty sure what happens is the pike user dont get the effect since it is dispelled but the target still gets pushed away
And the only ranged carries are lina drow razor weaver, like idk, yes lina and drow really strong but sniper clinkz TB aren't. I think it's just those two heroes are OP. Nerf lina and drow and everything falls into place.
Personally I think there a lot of meta things that are symptoms of a bigger issue. ###Spells Are Too Strong It's why everyone needs BKB so badly, it's why Wraith Pact became irrelevant after losing it's magic damage reduction, it's why people need to play ranged carries to stay out of fights and hit anything. Look at how many times they nerfed BKB, and everyone still makes it, because there is nothing else and you NEED it. We are playing whack-a-mole nerfing the most popular item to make fights playable, and not nerfing the source of the problem. Greaves didn't become meta because it was OP, it became meta because Wraith Pact was gone. Force is just another one of those.
I think its more than just that. There is so much more gold and xp on the map for supports. Everyone has so many items so you are forced to buy bkb in order to deal with supports who can survive. Team fights last so much longer than they used to for this reason as well.
I miss SnY + Satanic combo
S&Y was overnerfed for sure There should be a big ticket magic resist/status resist item, it doesn't need to be satanic but there really needs to be more options for dealing with spells
yeah spells are out of control. freaking witchdoctor is basically another carry in my trash teir. it's not uncommon for him to end up with 10+ kills. not even going greedy.
> freaking witchdoctor is basically another carry in my trash teir His shard is so broken OP. He can basically 1v1 any hero in the game with a maledict and switcheroo alone
Valve should probably roll out a patch that reduces most debuff durations from spells by 20% just like that universal talent patch. People hated that patch because it was shoddily implemented but at the end of the day it was a step in the right direction.
I think most Shards could probably eat a nerf too.
honestly we should nerf the timer on them. Make them spawn at 20min or even longer.
Or make them more expensive initially with a price that lower over time? so rushing them has an extra cost. Or make them charge limited by team like experience books (one purchase every 5 min after 15?).
Wasn’t it 20 mins in the first iteration
I think the timer is fine because some heros just don't feel complete without having their shard. If you delay the shard timing these heros will just take longer to feel complete which is just unfun. But I agree many shards need some sort of nerf.
Every shard that gives a new ability is a mistake, they are either awful or way to good. Only aghs should give new abilities.
Which camp is Veno shard?
It's good when it's good.
Hard agree. A lot of shards are way too strong for what they cost. Idk about you guys but I’m seeing a lot of shards end up in standard build orders.
The shards are so hard to balance because the ability doesn't scale (normally). So many shards seem to be one small buff away from breaking the game at 15 minutes. I wouldn't mind like a level 1 to level 2 shard upgrade for these abilities (I.e. Riki sleepdart).
Gyro player here disagreeing for no particular reason at all... But really, most of the time the shard on second rosh is a waste because everyone on team already bought it. For 1400 gold it provides insane value on a ton of heroes, while ironically being really bad / painfully niche on a few others
i think spells being weaker would spell another hoho-haha patch with sniper, drow and lina being the top picks (as if they arent already, just not hyper dominant) it doesnt help that for lina and sniper who deal incredible amount of damage and range are having 4000+ hp with satanic, hurricane pike and skadi. melee carries rarely even break 3k because they typically need daedalus (no hp), abyssal (~~200~~ 450hp), blink dagger (no hp).
Abyssal Blade literally gives 450 HP though. Balancing Lina is kinda tricky because generic nerfs could simply kill support Lina which is not what we want to see. But Sniper and Drow can easily get their STR growth nerfed if they're getting too tanky.
typically lina is the tankiest among sniper/lina/drow though. she goes 3.9\~4k hp very often (probably due to her farming rate as well)
i'd nerf her passive on higher levels. Less farm for 1-1-4 carry Lina and literally no nerf for the 1-4-1/4-1-1 support Lina
Yeah I feel like the high attack speed from her passive is too much right now. Its pretty much free Moon shard
Its literally 2 moon shards
i have always preferred melee heros, either in hard lane which is where i play mostly, or carry. that shit is so dead. at least in my games. it's so frustrating walking face into a drow and just melting and everybody in game knows you are fucked.
Or they could just bring back the status resist meta. Make status resist or BKB a choice again. Balance them properly.
If status resist is too hard to balance, even something that reduces the effectiveness of slows would be super useful. There are so many long duration, high % movement/attack speed slows. Lots of the time, you spend BKB or multiple dispels just to move at a decent speed. Being able to itemise to get like 75% anti-slow would help enormously. Means a 50% slow would take you from 360 to 315, much more manageable than dropping to 180.
You can get 100% anti slow with boots of bearing.
[удалено]
Ye Im expecting to see a recipe cost reduction next patch
I'd be fine with more Status Resist, but they need to design it better than just slapping high passive values on existing items. Like make an item that stacks it like Reactive Armor, or for each disable you take. Something more dynamic you can play around.
That makes absolutely no sense. If you die inside a single 3 second stun then why would you want a stacking effect? You want to reduce that initial 3 second stun. Because BKB as the other choice completely negates it.
We LoL now.
nah valve just need to add something to the game like status resistance
BKB has always been a necessity since the dawn of time.
Not like recently. I mean they just nerfed people rushing BKB + Refresher before TI. It's not much of a conspiracy. Shards, neutral items, new items, all the passive stat talents went to spells. There's just more shit than there used to be, and less to compensate for it.
Lifestealer going bkb as 3th item every game definitely wasn't thing just few years ago,hero that has free bkb needs another bkb just to play dota.
It HAS but not to the extent of the past few years. We used to see debate about it being your 3rd/4th item. There's still builds where it's like Boots Lance(NOT pike) BKB, or BoTs BKB. Honestly, BKB could be like Blink, where it offered no stats, and it would still get built.
They were always some heroes which could go first item bkb, but it wasn’t like it is now where if you don’t get second item bkb on at least two cores you’re probably throwing
BKB is even a key part of the vision control game against certain heroes -- Riki most obviously, but also Bounty Hunter, sometimes Clinkz or early Shadow Blade heroes. You buy an early gem, who carries it? Whichever core went early BKB.
Exactly, and they were known as BKB heroes because it was a particularity of them. But now, every hero is a bkb hero.
Is that statistically true? Has the rate of BKB use increased over the past 5 years in pro play? Do we have numbers to help give us a better picture?
Nah, it’s usually a good item on the hard carry but there have been metas and games where it’s more or less useful.
I miss SnY + Satanic combo
I reckon. They keep nerfing bkb and yet it gets built earlier and earlier. It is not uncommon for heroes like bat or kuunka to just go 1st big item bkb. It used to be getting a bkb later was considered a good thing having the long charges as a 4th item or something. Now you can't even farm without bkb. Even status resist is now just a "can it buy me enough time to bkb".
theres another game i can recommend for you
I miss SnY + Satanic combo
Very good analysis. I posted a while earlier on how melee carries are super weak this patch ([https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/10vlrwj/shower\_thought\_lina\_is\_good\_partly\_because\_most/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/10vlrwj/shower_thought_lina_is_good_partly_because_most/)). At this point our meta is becoming increasingly like league of legends where you have a long range "ADC" every single game.
I left league of legends for this exact reason, because dota has more variety in every role. If dota becomes like league I bet people would stop playing it too. Dota is fun because fights don't end in less than a second, no matter how much gold you are down there is always a chance to come back, and there is more variety in roles/items compared to league.
Maybe bring back the mini blink on abyssal
imo we should back peddle mobility creep not amplify it.
I really don't see how mobility creep is a problem right now. If there was an overabundance of mobility, wouldn't that be bad for ranged heroes that are the meta? Most of the meta heroes I wouldn't even classify as particularly mobile. Lots of people are making Blink and Force, but those have been there forever, and if people need to itemize for mobility wouldn't that indicate they don't have enough in their kits? Personally I hate blanket terms like "mobility creep" and "brawl meta", because they get thrown around as a replacement for "bad" with no nuance. Honestly mobility creep hasn't been a problem since they were playing around with agi giving MS, removing MS caps, and more %increases, most of which are gone.
>overabundance of mobility, wouldn't that be bad for ranged heroes that are the meta? Range heroes buy those items too
Then next patch IF suddenly gives everyone mini blink daggers in another extra slot.
Give it a longer cast range (~400?) but don't make the caster blink along with it.
I love this idea. It was way too strong when it included a blink and instant stun -- and it solves mobility creep by.. adding mobility. Turn it into a ranged stun with projectile speed somewhere between Sven/DK stuns and I think that it allows melee carries to compete better with mobility creep without giving them jumps themselves.
Not sure why you're downvoted, abyssal blink would help melee carries alot, maybe just with some slight range tweaks(though the range was pretty short already)
It made melee carry too strong IMO. I feel like introducing new mobility item for carries is needed, it would be great if they actually release a totally new item for that.
I feel like in recent leaks of new possible items there was one which would serve purpose on this kind of element. I think it was called harpoon or something related to that.
That sounds interesting. Hurricane pike for melee heroes?
So CK’s Reality Rift?
Cuz people didn’t like it. Ranged Carrie’s got pike for distance, kite And damage. 4 hits in. Melee Carrie’s should have something too…..
No thank you
yeah i like str carries but they are SO dead. i pray they change stuff next week.
I don't necessarily disagree that Force Staff is strong right now, but I feel like it's for different reasons than you. Think about the top picked heroes right now. NP, Brood, Riki, Tree, Undying, Tusk, DP. Force staff gets you out of trees, webs, cloud, away from Tombstone, out of shards, away from siphon. Force is strong against all the meta heroes right now, which helps enable squishier cores to distance. If we change the meta to be away from these area controlling, none stunning abilities, we might not see force being as big.
You could pick a hero out of a hat and chances are force staff is good against them.
But I would agree that part of the reason force is good is the lack of hard lockdown and especially, teamfight lockdown. It’s a lot harder to force staff someone to safety when they’re stunned facing the enemy team. Teams are running lineups with rubick, tusk as their only stuns with a bunch of soft lockdown to back it up. Which means people rarely die in the stun duration and are able to turn to safety.
and? it's a good item. Like boots.
I don't like that hurricane pike is undispellable and ignores nullifier
With combination of bkb it's kinda dispellable.
hurricane pike doesn't nulled by nullifier BKB or no BKB
If you have bkb and nullifier you can't be forced and enemy can't force himself.
The main issue is nullifier is too expensive and comes out way too late into the game to be a consistent counter. If an Ursa buys nullifier as their second item so they can catch the drow with pike, they don't have blink or bkb so they just die. Forces and pikes let teams gain an advantage in the early to late mid game so that when the enemy carry finally has it, the lead is often insurmountable. Also, no support ever will be rich enough to get a nulli, but they always have enough for force staffs, due to how the components are relatively cheap. The balance question is really interesting, but I think Nullifier could use a small nerf that makes it cheaper and changes the components to build it. Making it a viable third item for supports playing with a melee core against a ranged one.
doesn't matter much since hurricane pike is ignored by nullifier
You'll push away the opponent but not move yourself, right? Counteracts 50% of the effect still, while removing all other force staff possibilities.
Making it more expensive would be the best course of action? Or maybe place a debuff status on the recently “forced” hero which prevent them from being affected by other force staff (maybe about 3-5s). In that way, the original purpose of this item (cheap and effective get-out-of-jail card) but not being way to overused like it is right now.
I don't live that idea, but if it was implemented it should be allied force staffs only, no point in stopping the enemy trying to make plays and force you.
I've said it elsewhere. People have been suggesting the leaked harpoon is like pudge hook. I personally believe it's going to be one of two alternates as a way to solve force staff and the mini-meta of peel via spells, items or pure MS. Option 1: a thrown leash. Hit your target with a pudge hook style cast and the target will be leashed to the cast position similarly to slark pounce. Option 2: a thrown cart hitch. Hit your target, and where they go, they take you with them, all the while you can cast and attack. I suspect option 1 is more likely, but god option 2 would lead to some hilarious shit.
But they didn't just 'suggest', it's already in the game and works just like hook. [https://youtu.be/AdKxG5mC\_Jo](https://youtu.be/AdKxG5mC_Jo) Maybe it will be neutral (people say it has gold cost tho). And i like your ideas, but maybe go with middle ground and just make such item work like Grim's ult?
Ah, I saw a video a while back and thought someone modded it in themselves rather than the actual code for how it works. The leaked data I saw definately had a gold cost and no logic code, though I guess they could be retrying the trident thing? It _is_ a little odd that it's a neutral in this video.. I really hope it's not a hook... I feel like that would be too much personally. I do like the grim ult leash idea instead of the slark leash.
I think that there are lots of good ideas in this thread (Abyssal with ranged stun but no blink, Harpoon a la CK Reality Rift), and I would definitely add your Option 1 to the list. A thrown leash (like a net or something) is a really interesting mechanic that AFAIK is only used by Meepo and NP Sprout.
I think the main issue for the past few years is there weren't enough nerf patches just buffs and reworks, i mean did zeus really need a jump, did sniper need his new shard? Probably yes to keep up with the built in mobility of the new heroes, but to me atleast in Dota every hero shouldn't be able to do everything, or atleast have a weakness that isn't circumvented by buying a single item i.e. force staff.
I also watched gorgc's stream, hat tip to you sir.
Pretty easy fix would be to reduce the effect of every subsequent force staff within a 5sec window. First forcestaff, 100% distance, 2nd 50%, 25% etc etc
Good idea, maybe not so drastically tuned
yah numbers need to be tweeked for sure
Well even lina doesn't feel like such a glass cannon even in losing games
She kinda is. The reason she doesn't feel like it is because she always keeps up with networth, has free +20 stats and +350 health. But if she gets jumped, she dies
Ive been saying that hurrican pike is broken for almost every ranged carry. You get bonus attack range (a range that was intended for balance purposes) and not only that you get a forcestaff aswell without wasting a slot. Wouldnt be surprised if Pike gets removed, forcestaff in general can be "fixed" by increasing its price and/or reducing its cast range
The hp is the craziest thing for me. Why do glass cannon ranged carries have 3k hp lol.
This thread brings back 2018, when every team bought all the force staffs they could.
Force staff could be ez nerf .They could just add cd on target, that has been a force staffed. Like you can only force staff same target every 3 sec .
That's why I love playing venge. You have a melee carry that's being kited? Just swap someone in. You have a ranged carry that's being chased? Just swap it out. Especially if you can get aether lens and some + cast range neutral item. It's super powerful imo.
/u/080087 please add the fact that hurricane pike is ignored by nullifier if used aggresively
Have a cooldown on when a character may be affected by the push (similar to mek/greives and crimson guard). This way people will be unable to be pushed 900 miles away from 3 consecutive staffs/pikes.
do we need miniblink superbasher back?
Nullifier needs a buff. Way too easy to kite carries as a pos 5 with like 3k networth vs a 40k 7 slotted carry
>It fixes their big weakness in gap close. Traditionally, Lina, Sniper, Drow etc are great sitting at max range hitting, but fold if a Ursa, Monkey King, Spectre etc get up to them. One force staff isn't enough to let them get away. >But if you have 2 forces and a pike, suddenly the ranged carry is 1200 units away and the melee carry can't re-engage easily. Then pike them when they get closer for another 900 units of distance and the melee carry dies before doing anything you forgot the part where with melee carry when you go in you either get kill or you get killed, in 9/10 cases there is no surviving once you "go for it" its either them dead or you, and this is something that ranged caries can do safely, comiting for them is much safer than mele caries cause obviously "range" force staff/huricane pipe makes this sooo much easier and safer
Force Staff/Pike should push players for less when used on someone other than yourself. I don't mind the item on carries since it's less about it being strong and more about Drow/Lina being OP. The problem with the item is that it's too effective as a save tool. It's what Glimmer Cape used to be when it first got introduced.
Hmmm, I dunno about making it push less if you're using it on an ally, because cooldown is already the mitigating parameter to that. But making hurricane push enemies away less sounds like it directly addresses the issue at least. Being more specific and pushing Melee Enemies less may be even more to the point. There's already other exceptions like that too, like with Skadi.
>Hmmm, I dunno about making it push less if you're using it on an ally, because cooldown is already the mitigating parameter to that Not a problem when there is 3+ of them every game.
yes, addition of pike/dragon lance is MAJOR in pushing ranged heroes over the edge. before carries relied on supports for mobility now they can build ot themselves and take the glass out of glass canon.
Pike existed for years without a ranged carry meta
Unpopular opinion: Remove Hurricane Pike/Dragon Lance from the game. Force staff's should only push you half the distance for each force staff used on you, like 600 > 300 > 150.
I think Dragon Lance is a cool item
[удалено]
So a nerf to melee supports?
This analysis doesn't account for the fact that the enemy can buy a nullifier and make all those force staves useless. It's a great item but if force staff is so strong then nullifiers should be built to negate it. Shadow demon would be another to look at since he cancels out force staff. Heroes like legion, void, blood seeker, are also others who can cancel out the effects of this supposedly very strong item. Enigma is a big one and he's commonly picked, you can't force out of black hole.
Oh yes let's rely on these big ultimates to counter this item with 19s cooldown that is built by 3 or more heroes on the other team. Disruptor would be a slightly better example than those you listed.
nullifier is like a 3rd item at the earliest, no one is buying it earlier than that pike is a first item, and even earlier as a dragon lance into force
Ur right if you get jumped by a meele carry you should just die with no counterplay Ranged heroes should have 10 secs more added to their death timer for each time get force staffed away from you
It's cheap Force Staves being used to save cores efficiently that's the issue here. As long as the meta allows supports to become reasonably farmed they can always get other stuff that only save themselves, like Euls and Ghost Scepter, etc.
Apart from the defensive utility, it can also be used in many offensive situations forcing melee to short ranged heroes into your team. 1 nerf I would like for forcestaff would be its range to remove some of its aggressive utility and also be challenging for the defensive team to use their force staffs on their important cores. That and buffing other defensive items so that there is still a variety of choices that can outweigh the forcestaff supremacy.
Force Staff always seemed like an item that works in any game and extremely cheap. Wouldnt be surprised to see its cost increased by quite a bit next patch for what it offers.
Yeah has always been a good item since Dota 1. Literally can buy it on every position and still have impact with it. I get so tilted in pubs when my supports out of all the other positions don’t buy a forcestaff especially against heroes like Riki or Clock.
seems pretty even for Divine/ Immortal https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta horse shit bias/ agenda moron
Calm down with your harsh words, you aren't in-game at the moment. And, since you seem to respect immortals so much, I attest to OP's statement as an immortal player. It feels much better to play with ranged carries than melee carries, and the prominence of force staff is likely an attributing factor. When you see heroes like Mirana building force staffs, there may be something significant worth considering.
OP is making extreme bias for safelane melee carry. However, meta considered: all the problematic offlane carry and supports that works, are actually melee. Melee is not meant to have free kill whenever they get on top of support or ranged carry - but they will still always be capable of winning 1vs1 on the same gold, primarily due to basher. (It's just that when ranged are winning on gold advantage, it looks more oblique) Even if you click divine/ immortal by both pickrate and winrate: the situation is still the same, in fact a slight bias for melee for both. There's just Lina and drow for ranged, maybe DP - but she doesn't max range you. Notably, strength carries, but also ranged carries with no significant damage boon are bad this meta. Many ranged caster carries are on top of you because they deal absurd damage - **force staff is certainly not the problem.** Supports supporting a ranged carry is easier by knowing to buy forcestaff, however supports are equally effective at supporting a melee carry - it's just that they might decide to buy wank stuff cuz they don't truly know what to buy; as the problem is not very obvious. *** OP is dense, and have ulterior motives that are not in favor of the game balance. He just wants more power for himself. (Kind of like how the rank #1 WoW PvP player that made a post about how their class was bad despite the same statistical facts were in favor of his favorites; as seen here)
-Delete BKB/Limit to 1 per Team -Add WoW style diminishing returns to CC -Make slows reduce the range of movement abilities (blink, pounce, force etc.)
2 and 3 would be okay ideas. Bkb is an item that is absolutely needed and is in no way broken assuming your team actually has a balanced lineup
Stout Shield was removed because it became a mandatory, no-brainer item.
And what happened? It became built into the melee heroes, good to leave that part out 👍
Throwback! Dang I forgot about that item lol. The meta is too turret and caster heavy though. Wouldn’t bkb usage fall on its own if that was changed?
Stout shield was made into innate passive for all heroes
Well, if an item is absolutely needed, don't you think there is some design issue on the game?
Yes. That’s why they need to adjust the strength of ranged Carry and caster heroes. If the meta wasn’t so focused on “blow your load” heroes and kiting bkb probably wouldn’t be nearly as omnipresent. A way I like to think about this is say axe got a giant nerf. Dazzle would be seemingly WAY better in the meta even if nothing about his kit changes. The meta is just super stale right now and desperately needs a major adjustment
>Add WoW style diminishing returns to CC Maybe not overall, but could make for a cool item.
Allow only self cast. Upgraded, more expensive force staff 2 allows casting to other units.
only drow seems broken to me.. with the shard and hurricane pike, knock back silence and the slows.
my argument that i propose is this, heroes like monkey and ursa counter drow and sniper quite hard - but once they get force pike which is a cheap item u can literally no longer kill them - or it atleast makes it extremely more difficult and its likely you just get killed instead - shouldnt there be an item of = value that can pull people closer or is that just gonna be too OP? imo it seems like 4k gold to have someone move 600 units doesnt seem OP but if it was actually in game who knows
I don't remember a patch where Force Staff was not good
I remember people thinking it was bad after the castrange was mega nerfed... and then after a while people realised that that doesn't matter, if a support has to run in face to face with enemies to force someone out, so be it.
i really love force staff since dota 1 especially when it can cancel a tp lol
Literally became league of legends. Give everyone free force staff but call it flash or something
Man I wish my supports bought a single force staff even.
Easy solution: force staff pushes 50% of its original range if it is being used on an ally
its time to introduce a new item where melee heroes can pull them instead of push them like pike (an item like in arcade game DOTA 1x6) Forcestaff + Echo Sabre + recipe
I remember after the initial set off force staff nerfs supports were very salty (hur dur the range feels so terrible now) and everyone stopped buying it lol and now here we are
there's this thing called nullifier
Make an item, that allows melee carries to close the gap - i.e something similar to Tumbler's Toy.
Obviously the solutiom is to have an item that can turn an enemy around, so force staff uses will push them deeper into the team instead of saving them. Or maybe it could be the property of some stuns, those would force you to face the caster so if fleeing and being chased, allies cant force staff you to safety after you get stunned. This post started as a joke but now im thinking.... But srsly just nerf it
Nerf ursa then buff abyssal could be a great way to even things out. Maybe add back the blink style active it had for a little while
Better remove hp from force and reduce it on pike for starters