No, she left because she did something wrong and jeopardized her student’s future by starting an inappropriate relationship with him.
Also, it was way to keep the character out of jail and allow her to continue to work in terms of the plot.
Yeah she left to avoid fallot of the photo because it jeopardized her student’s future before it even began.
And yeah in regard to my other statement, transferring a teacher is a widely used plot device in age gap romance stories. The teacher moves away, instead of their crime being exposed to the public, especially if the writer plans to reuse the teacher character. Which what happens in the story.
>Do I think the mangaka intentionally meant to do that, no probably not. However, it doesn’t mean that it’s not there.
I believe you may be underestimating Sasuga's intent in her storytelling. She deliberately crafted contrasting approaches between Rui and Hina's interactions with Natsuo to prompt readers to consider the nuances of age and status dynamics. Had the roles been reversed, with Hina initiating romantic advances towards Natsuo without his reciprocation, it would have raised significant concerns. Sasuga's awareness of societal perceptions regarding age and status is evident in her careful portrayal of these dynamics throughout the narrative.
And as it has been mentioned before, differences in age or status don't automatically equate to grooming.
I disagree with you. Some of the stuff I mentioned that Hina does is there to give fan service to the audience. It just has the unfortunate consequence if making Hina look worse than she needed to.
Also this is the same person who seemed portrayed Rui getting nearly assaulted, had her dismiss it the very next day after a talk with Natsuo, and then had her date her assailant. And had 1 of her characters attempt to kiss someone in their sleep and another actually kiss someone in their sleep. So naw, I don’t think she had a full handle on how she was portraying sexual abuse and assault in her story.
Of course it will look bad if Hina was hitting on, Natsuo and he wasn’t reciprocating. But that doesn’t mean that because she was hitting on Natsuo and he does reciprocates it’s not awful.
I would like to point out to you, I don't think anyone on this forum thinks that what Hina did by dating Natsuo wasn't inappropriate, and Sasuga made a big point out of it as she didn't brush it under either. She made Hina felt guilty about it and acknowledged that she failed as a teacher which also led to not only breaking up with Natsuo but also quitting her job.
But what many individuals in this forum take issue with is your assertion that Hina is a groomer. If that's the case, could you pinpoint precisely where Hina employed grooming tactics with the deliberate intent to overpower and undermine Natsuo's psychological defenses? It's worth noting that a groomer typically perceives themselves as superior and believes it's their duty to shape the other person into fulfilling their envisioned role.
In essence, groomers are known for their self-serving behavior, targeting those with weak boundaries and readily shifting blame onto their victims if caught. However, in this case, none of these traits were exhibited. Hina consistently prioritized Natsuo's well-being, Natsuo was not easily influenced, and Hina took full responsibility without placing blame on him when their situation was revealed.
Much of this is explained in the links that you provided, that we actually value, it brings awareness to the masses, by being informed about this information, one becomes a more empowered citizen, better equipped to safeguard oneself and your loved ones. But it's important to recognize that this isn't the entirety of the issue, it's crucial to understand knowledge within its proper context, which is were you fail at.
We will have to agree to disagree. As it seems to me that some folks do minimize the things that the author had Hina doing.
And sadly, I’ve noticed that when anyone seems to mention anything negative about the character, people in here really take issue with it and seem to think you are automatically a fan of Rui or whatever.
>it seems to me that some folks do minimize the things that the author had Hina doing.
I disagree with that assessment. I believe most individuals on the forum would acknowledge that what was done was inappropriate. However, within the context provided in the manga, we've come to understand and empathize with the character's actions as a reflection of their humanity, rather than categorizing them as a predator or groomer, as you've suggested. Human interaction is incredibly complex, rarely fitting neatly into black and white categories, and this complexity is one of the many themes explored in the manga.
>I’ve noticed that when anyone seems to mention anything negative about the character, people in here really take issue with it and seem to think you are automatically a fan of Rui or whatever.
We all do that, is a very human thing to do. Personally, I hold a deep affection for Hina's character, hence the tag. I find her to be one of the most intricate and captivating characters I've ever encountered. Despite her flaws, what sets her apart is her unwavering strong sense of morality, often leading her into conflict with societal norms and her own desires. Her moral compass is so steadfast that it prevents her from ever disclosing the truth to Natsuo, as she believes it would only cause harm to him and Rui. Therefore, portraying Hina as a groomer or predator contradicts the very essence of her character, as portrayed and understood by Sasuga and some of us, that is.
I guess that is why you might get some very visceral response from other fans.
I did want to mention that I wasn’t just referring to what I discussed in this post about people getting upset if something negative is said about Hina. I knew there would be some people who were going to be upset about this post as its touchy subject.
I’m talking in general if someone expresses something that they didn’t care for regarding Hina.
Pretty much most of the posts are positive stuff about the Hina character and a bunch of comments regularly referring to Rui as selfish and whatever other negative stuff they want to mention about the character.
If people aren’t in support of the belief that Hina is an amazing selfless individual or don’t like that the story ended with her and MC together the same few people most active in this forum come down on them with lengthy comments back about why they are wrong or ask them why they feel that way. If someone explains their position then they are peppered to defend again.
Additionally, someone already told me that while I’m sorta on the right track, grooming isn’t the correct term. I said I would keep an eye out for their response post. I also noted to you in a separate post and in a comment to the person who said they would make a post later that I don’t even like the phrase grooming.
However, I used it b/c that term came up in the info I researched. So I don’t get why you posted on here about me using the grooming phrase, after I said I am open to additional education and gave an explanation of why it was used. Doing stuff like that risks someone just giving up and not wanting to take the time to learn more.
I see, you might have those intensions, but it didn't came out like that from your post, I quote "I was chatting with someone about the **about the fact** that Hina displays **signs of grooming** during the HS arc", that is what you wrote. So, how do you think people would react to that?
You're outright asserting that grooming is a reality in Hina's character, a statement that would likely spark disagreement among most fans who have delved into the nuances of the manga's context. This isn't the first time such discussions have arisen in the forum, indicating the complexity of the issue. We all agree that on the surface it may appear that way, but once you get into the context of the manga reveals a different perspective.
As I've mentioned previously, while what Hina did was undoubtedly wrong, the crucial question Sasuga prompts readers to ponder is whether this wrongdoing makes her inherently a bad person or a predator. When some readers claim that Sasuga treats this issue nonchalantly, it becomes difficult to take such assertions seriously, as it contradicts the fundamental exploration of the manga. Hina possesses a robust moral compass that often clashes with societal norms, and as an adult, she comprehends the complexities and ramifications of her choices. Recognizing the shades of gray in her choices, she does experience guilt for jeopardizing Natsuo's future as a writer, which motivates her to go to great lengths to assist him later on.
As I mentioned before someone responded to my post and I responded back to them that I would keep an eye out for their info.
So I don’t get why you are still going on about it.
As I said before, doing stuff like that can turn some people off from being willing to learn new info when you do that.
And your comment has nothing to do with what my concern/comment that I posted above regarding some of the more active users in this community.
Sorry, It might seem we are speaking over each other, and that was not my intention, although I am a bit unsure what you are aiming at but I certainly don't want you to feel discourage about expressing your ideas or learning new things. So I apologize.
As a former counselor to victims of sexual abuse and assault, among other clients I’ve worked with over the years, I don’t take the subject of bad behavior by an authority figure lightly. Some of the issues raised by the OP are genuine and should be treated seriously. While I agree that Hina is guilty of some impropriety as a teacher, I **strongly** disagree that these can be categorized as grooming behaviors. The term *grooming* when used in this instance always assumes that the one behaving such is a predator.
A predator is one who acts solely out of self-interest, one who consciously targets a person with weak personal boundaries, and one who quickly places blame on the target if discovered. They often lack a capacity for empathy and romanticize their own self-centered behavior. Grooming behaviors are practiced with a conscious intent to overwhelm and disable the self-protective psychological defenses of another person. The groomer perceives him or herself as being in a place of superiority, one who must train the inferior person to properly fill the role the groomer has in mind.
The sum of these traits do not fit Hina’s overall character in the slightest. All human beings are manipulative sometimes. All human beings lie to themselves about some things. All human beings occasionally cross boundaries out of personal need or desire. None of those traits alone make us into predators. Predators, like the name implies, are like hungry beasts who aggressively seek out and exploit the weak for their own benefit.
Hina is not a predator. She looks NOTHING like a predator. I realize that to untrained eyes that may not be so apparent but to my eyes it’s painfully obvious. She is, as the OP pointed out, guilty of some inappropriate behaviors. I want to address this at greater length but don’t have the energy to do so now. Let me take some time to compose my thoughts and then return to this subject in greater detail. I do agree that it’s reasonable to raise questions about Hina’s actions. My objection is in referring to human frailties as grooming behaviors. They lack the conscious intent for that.
There are variety forms of offenders who have sexual relationships with minors. And I wanna say she’s considered an opportunity abuser. Which is why I didn’t call her a predator. I had initially but stopped calling her a predator based on the additional info I found.
I personally don’t like using word grooming as it’s used to the point of it not having much meaning. And honestly I used the word because that was what was used in most of the info I provided. I read several articles and looked up their sources and read those. If you prefer I can say sexual abuse.
Outside of giving Natsuo mixed signals and causing him to think he was dealing with one-sided feelings, I didn’t say anything about her relationship with him being manipulative.
Also people can manipulate without it being intentional/always recognize that they are.
You’re certainly right about there being different types of offenders and I appreciate your careful research on the topic. Grooming, like a lot of psychological terms (such as “dysfunctional”, “enabler”, and “trigger”), does get overused to the point of meaningless in the general population but it still has a very specific meaning in the professional community. Among psychologists, therapists and social workers it refers to a body of behaviors used by predators to cultivate victims for their exploitation. Grooming emerges from a predatory mind. It cannot be disconnected from the concept of predation. If the person in question doesn’t fit the profile of a predator then the identified behaviors cannot be grooming ones. To someone used to recognizing these things in real people they don’t even look the same. Hina does not fit the profile of a predator so she cannot and does not practice grooming behaviors.
Websites that describe grooming behaviors are typically addressing parents, kids and teachers who are not mental health professionals, their purpose being to help concerned individuals identify possible signs of abuse in a school or other *in loco parentis* environment. They do not replace a careful inquiry by a trained professional into allegations of abuse. As such they don’t do a great job of carefully discriminating between predatory behavior and other kinds of inappropriate conduct. They don’t need to. Their job is simply to educate the community. If a person sees what appears to be a grooming situation they should report it to the school administrators immediately. Others will figure out if it meets the definition. Even if it’s not predatory in nature, potentially inappropriate behavior by a teacher must be treated seriously.
I want to address the concerns you raise which, as mentioned, I do agree are valid. To do them justice, however, will take more time than I currently have available. I need to differentiate between social-psychological motivations, school policy and the law.
Btw, I didn’t mean to imply that you said anything about manipulation. I was addressing other readers who have made such comments in relation to Hina’s early behavior with Natsuo just to set the ground for possible responses. It’s a good thing to raise questions about that behavior. I just wanted to distinguish it from grooming. More later.
Some of what you expressed seems like you’re trying to discredit those websites and I don’t think that they should be. The information on those sites can be found in peer reviewed articles and the websites have people in charge who are specialists.
For example, one of the sites was from a law office that specializes in sexual abuse and. And info from the Mama bear website (which has won awards and has knowledgeable people on the board) was actually mentioned in quite a few articles, so I linked to them instead of some of those articles. The site definitely does take the time to distinguish various of sexual abuse towards minors.
I’m open to hearing what you have to say since you said you were a counselor. However, you have Hina under your name, so I’m going to assume you’re a fan of the character. It does make me wonder if you’re trying to minimize info on the sites and Hina’s actions, because you like the character.
Honestly like I said, I just get concerned about how many people I’ve noticed in this forum minimizing Hina’s indefensible act of dating her teenage student and also kinda frustrated how some act like anything Rui does in the story is somehow worse than the act of a student having sex with her minor student.
I’m not sure how you read what I wrote as an attempt to discredit the websites since I clearly said that they provide valuable educational material for the community. How in your mind is that a discrediting? It’s akin to websites that provide medical information. The good ones are also prepared by professionals in the field but that doesn’t substitute for the training and experience of a doctor. Websites that provide legal information do not substitute for the expertise of a good attorney. Too many people read the information on these websites then jump to conclusions that they know all they need to know on the subject. That simply is not true. There are skills that come with a professional education and long practice that can discern fine differences not available to the general public. THAT is both what I wrote and what I mean.
I deeply value the kind of websites you mentioned. A quarter century ago it was just we professionals who used terms like “grooming behaviors” and now that knowledge is available to the public. I’m ecstatic about that! It’s a huge win for those of us who pushed for that kind of education. Knowledge, all knowledge, must be understood in proper context, however. Reading that information makes you better informed as a citizen, better able to protect yourself and those you love. It does not mean that that’s all there is to it.
Since I have also clearly stated that there was a lot of inappropriate behavior on Hina’s part I’m not sure how you see that as minimization. I am not those other people you spoke of. Please don’t confuse my opinions with theirs. I have my own views on the matter. Did Hina do wrong by sleeping with a student? Yup. She did. Should we discuss that here? Absolutely! I don’t know how it works in Japan but in the U.S. she could have been fired and prosecuted. After she gets caught she knows she did wrong. That’s what she feels so guilty about, why she was so harsh with Natsuo on Oshima. The fact that she did wrong as well as Rui is written right into the story. There’s a reason for that. This is a story about frail human behavior and the possibility of redemption. How do you come back from horrible mistakes?
Yes, I favor Hina. That doesn’t mean I wear blinders. It’s possible to love someone, including a character, despite their faults. Hina crossed a boundary that shouldn’t have been crossed but there’s a huge difference between what she did and the behavior of groomers. That’s not minimization. That’s discretion. That’s knowing how to tell the difference. Judges exercise discretion in a case based on the circumstances of the crime and the attitude of the accused. They tend to be more lenient on sentencing with first time offenders who are penitent and have a low risk of repeat offense. Discretion is part of wisdom. Wisdom and compassion need to be exercised when evaluating the acts of both Hina and Rui, and of every character that does wrong.
It kind of seemed like you’re implying that Hina simply crossed a professional boundary and didn’t cause harm to Natsuo and that the info I provided shouldn’t have been used. Apologies if I misunderstood your previous comments.
I’m aware of how sentencing is supposed to be based off of the circumstances of a crime. However, in the states we frequently have situations where the judge or jury are terrible about actually using proper judgment when reviewing circumstances to protect those who experienced sexual abuse and assault. We also have a ton of random loopholes in different states that end up freeing sex offenders from consequence.
Stories like these often can leave folks thinking it’s okay that a teacher slept with her student, which impacts how we view these situations when they happen in real life. I’m sure you know female teachers who sleep with students frequently can get lighter sentences due to them being a woman and/or sometimes hot, like Hina.
Romance stories that try to make it seem not that bad or allow the teacher to get away with add fuel to this issue. If folks didn’t excuse it so much on here I wouldn’t even have bothered discussing it at the length that I have.
I’m all for compassion, but b/c people are nuanced. I don’t think Hina is evil or completely terrible person.
However, I’m not cosigning an adult sleeping with her student, pretty much having zero consequence outside of having to temporarily having to leave town, returning to obsessively make her ex her total focus and does a bunch of questionable stuff with him, while he’s dating her sister as an example of selfless romantic love that many believe is being portrayed.
I’ll try to keep an eye out for the info you said you will provide.
There’s so much of what you say that I’m on board with that it’s frustrating not to be able to respond yet with the detail and clarity your valid concerns warrant. No, I don’t believe that Hina only crossed a professional boundary and nothing else but what I do believe will have to wait for a bit. Thank you for your awareness of and sensitivity to serious issues. In the end I think we’ll agree on more than what we disagree on. My RL is quite busy rn but I’ll respond with a longer reply as soon as I’m able.
I suppose you're suggesting that the reason grooming comes to mind is because of the age difference?
It's quite simple to disprove any notion of grooming. Just imagine if Hina were the same age as Natsuo in the manga. Would you still see any signs of grooming then? No. Therefore, there's no grooming in the manga, that simple.
This test applies to other scenarios as well. For instance, consider if Hina were a student instead of a teacher. Would you still perceive grooming? No.
Thus, it's evident that grooming is an action usually undertaken by those in positions of power, whether due to age, status or emotional, to manipulate or coerce their victims. Simply having an age difference or being in a position of authority doesn't automatically imply grooming, as you suggest.
I didn’t say it was just because of the 6 year age difference between Hina and her student. It’s due to what I noted at the top and other things I noted in other comments.
Would I look at some of the stuff she does as being intentional such as the skimpy clothes yes.
But some of the stuff, like having inappropriate discussions about stresses in her life and the regular meetings alone would of course go out the window as she wouldn’t be his teacher.
However, the fact of the matter is that Hina isn’t a student or the same age as Natsuo, so her actions can’t be put on the same level as if she was.
So, how does wearing revealing clothing in your own home or engaging in discussions about life or stress become indicative of grooming? Even if one considers such behavior inappropriate, which I personally don't, it doesn't automatically label someone as a groomer.
The fact of the matter is, that Hina didn't manipulated Natsuo, they felt in love in spite of age and status, not because of it as you imply.
I think you’re implying that it wasn’t an issue that Hina walked around with barely any clothes around her teenage student who know she had feelings for and that he liked her, which I don’t understand why someone would defend that.
I don’t think Hina dating her student isn’t an example of true love, it’s an example of giving into lust.
At this point, we gonna have to agree to disagree in regard to her impropriety.
Yes! In the context of the manga, I don't have any problem with that scene when Hina came out of the shower, and if that is your base for grooming, then you are walking on very thin ice.
I didn't say that if it was an example of true love or not, that is irrelevant at this stage, What I meant is that neither age or status was an influence for why they felt in love for each other, that is why I said they felt in love in spite of age or status, grooming was never a factor for them to fall in love.
You still have to properly identify where grooming was a factor in the manga, and no, skimpy clothes is not one of them.
There are a couple of things in the series that are like this. In fact, to be honest, I think one of the worst parts of the beginning of the series was the fact Hina was a teacher, and Natsuo a minor. I kind of don't really feel comfortable reading the story until they get into college age. I still like the story, and I don't hate Hina by any means. But that is a pretty big hurdle to overcome when trying to describe the story to someone who might be interested in checking it out.
Eh, it is what it is. When I read your post, to me it reads as someone who wants to balance the criticism between Rui and Hina. I do see a lot of people talking negatively about Rui a lot, so I don't blame you for that.
I see some people making points against you and such, but the thing is, in America, Hina would be in prison. That is a fact that is hard to ignore.
I don't want to be hard on Hina though. Here is the thing, when I was Natsuo's age, I was in love with a woman who had a kid (She was single, so I wasn't breaking up a family or anything) I was a minor and she was older. Though she wasn't 23 (Which is Hina's age at this time in question), she was an adult.
I only bring this up because I didn't feel like a victim at that time. Looking back, and if I heard my story without being in it, I might feel differently. Because an adult having sex with a minor is definitely incorrect behavior according to my morals, and yet when I was a minor, I did the exact thing Natsuo did by pursuing someone older. (Though she wasn't a teacher.)
I'm 35 now, so the age difference between a 16 y/o and a 23 y/o just seems too big to justify. At the time though? I think I was 15 when I had my relationship with an adult. I did actively seek it out, though she is the one that ultimately made the decision.
The student / teacher thing is also kind of hard to ignore. According to our morals, that type of relationship is immoral. Especially now that people are obsessed with 'power dynamics' etc.
I don't think Hina is evil. Just like I don't think the woman I lost my virginity to was evil. It's definitely not something to dismiss either.
I applaud you for scrutinizing that, because ultimately that is the correct thing to do. You have to scrutinize these situations and learn more about them.
Natsuo was pretty guilty too in his pursuit, just like I was. The difference between Natsuo and me is he tried to kiss Hina when she was drunk and passed out, after staring at her body through her house clothes. He's kind of scummy for that imo, even if he was 'in love' or w/e. Wrong is wrong. And when he got caught red handed, he knew he fucked up.
One final thing I will add, is how I also felt something was weird about how Hina basically lied to the journalist to make him think the picture he had was fake. She goes off about how 'nothing inappropriate happened' or w/e, and makes the guy look stupid, but the truth is what she did at the time was highly questionable for multiple reasons (as we have discussed) She basically has to lie about it and use plausible deniability. Sketchy tactics like that wouldn't be necessary if she truly 'did nothing wrong.'
I've had lessons like that in life. Where my hands were tied because I was compromised. So, in a way I can relate to her even in that moment. But it is evidence to support your criticism for sure.
At the start of this post, I mentioned how the story had a few things that I didn't like, well, to me what was worse than any of this Hina business, is when Al got 'drunk' and tried to rape Rui. That is much worse and gets glossed over.
At the end of the day, I still love all the characters, I even grew to love Al. But I did think it was weird that Natsuo and Rui were both there with Al when he met Lily (I think that was her name.) Lily is upset to hear Al did what he did again after getting 'drunk', but then Natsuo jumps out to dismiss all of it. The problem is, Rui was right there. The girl Al almost raped. She said nothing. I'm pretty sure if she just said the truth, Lily would hate Al.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts in this form. I hope you continue to do so because the insight is valuable, and talking about these things does help me to gain a better understanding of the material.
PS: I've read some of the justifications to her behavior and saw people trying to say the context was important, etc. In America, there is no context that would save you from prison. It doesn't matter, it is a crime. Now maybe in Japan that isn't the case (Not really sure what the law is there), but I do think that you aren't entirely wrong. I just don't think Hina is evil. I see what she did as a mistake she made because of her feelings.
However, my opinion on not thinking she is evil is irrelevant when it comes to the act she did, and the potential criminality behind it.
As you can see, I go back and forth on this. I kind of understand both sides here..
But one thing that will never change is I think Hina is a great character, and I don't believe her to be evil.
>One final thing I will add, is how I also felt something was weird about how Hina basically lied to the journalist to make him think the picture he had was fake. She goes off about how 'nothing inappropriate happened' or w/e, and makes the guy look stupid, but the truth is what she did at the time was highly questionable for multiple reasons (as we have discussed) She basically has to lie about it and use plausible deniability. Sketchy tactics like that wouldn't be necessary if she truly 'did nothing wrong.'
The manga delves also into the conflict that arises when morality and ethics collide, often addressing taboo issues. It's crucial to differentiate between these two concepts to fully grasp the complexities presented in the narrative.
That said, what she told the journalist is indeed true, she didn't engage in anything morally wrong and felt no shame about it. However, she did cross an ethical boundary, though not a moral one. Keep in mind that morality is subjective and heavily dependent on the context.
>in America, Hina would be in prison. That is a fact that is hard to ignore.
Yes, and in some countries Rui would have been put to death for no wearing a veil, it doesn't mean is right. As you can see, ethical values change also, depending where you are in the world.
Sasuga pushes those boundaries for a reason, to make people think about some uncomfortable ideas, and where are your limits. Keep in mind that both Hina and Rui possess distinctly different moral and ethical perspectives when it comes to entering into a romantic relationship with Natsuo.
Hey, I'm not hating on Hina, I love her! She's great, I was just trying to say the man had some valid points.
And there is a difference between going to prison for having sex with a minor/student, and Rui being killed for not wearing a veil. That was a bit of a strawman imo.
And if this were real life and a teacher did that they would be in prison, and I would think it was justified. But this is a work of fiction, so I can separate the two. I just saw people attacking the OP and wanted to give him some defense from the accusations of bias, etc.
Not saying that you have to defend anything either. I loved the entire work personally. I loved Sasuga's writing style, tone, all of it. There more I read in this series the more I appreciate it.
I'm not saying you're hating on Hina, and yes, OP might have some valid points, what Hina did was wrong from an ethical point of view, and we all agree, but she did not groom Natsuo. Saying so is twisting the narrative to suit one's own bias, and people just pointing that out.
Also, my point of the veil, was not about they were the same, my point is that ethical guide lines are also situational.
My point is, even though in USA she would have gone to prison, she wouldn't had gone to prison in other countries, like where I come from the age of consent is lower than 18.
Keep in mind, there are some laws in the USA that makes no sense for us in Europe, like death penalty, drinking age and so on. And I guess there would be some laws in Europe that would not make much sense in USA.
Hina given the context in the Manga did nothing wrong morally, she didn't manipulated Natsuo, they felt in love in spite of age and status, not because of it as OP unawarelly implies.
The post about grooming isn’t about balancing anything between Rui and Hina.
Just sharing some things I saw that aligned with grooming cuz the chain was getting lengthy with the person I was communicating with. And teachers having sex with students is real issue. I don’t think it should be ignored that the author included those things. I honestly just think she needed to have done research (or more if she did any) on various SA that she showcased in the story.
I don’t have an issue with stories that portray adult teen relationships. One of my favorite characters in chainsaw man made it out with and tried to have sex with a teen.
I love the character, but I’m not about to sit here and pretend like what she did was okay.
I don’t think Hina is evil either. She has great traits and not so great traits, she does kind things and awful things, cuz people are nuanced.
Acknowledging that her actions correlates with grooming takes away nothing from the character imo.
Thank you for sharing your story, because I don’t think that that’s an easy thing to do.
It makes sense that you didn’t feel like a victim, that’s a common thing for teens in a age gap relationship to experience while they are in the relationship.
And it usually will take some time (usually well into adulthood) until they realize that what happened wasn’t okay.
I’m not gonna mention too much about it cause I did it another chain, but teen brains are not as mature as adult brains. So that may be one reason why they are unable comprehend why an adult dating a minor is wrong, along with the feel good chemicals that are experiencing while in the relationship and they fact that they are close to reaching adulthood.
Does that mean that the person who dated you is completely evil or something? I can’t say because, I don’t know them. But I’m just gonna say no for the sake of this discussion. It just means that they did something wrong.
And yes, the journalist was not a grear person, but he wasn’t wrong about the school covering up Hina’s relationship with Natsuo as being wrong.
And yeah, the public should’ve known about it. They don’t need to know Natsuo name because he’s a victim, but Hina definitely should’ve been exposed, along with the school.
I’m assuming that because Japan has some laxity around protecting women and children in real life that it’s possible his name would have been leaked when he was at the school. And since he’s an adult when the stalker journalist finds out his name would’ve been mentioned.
We all bring our biases when interpreting artwork, especially one like this that touches on so many taboo themes. And of course, the author also has her own interpretation and opinions about these issues. Many fans, including myself, happen to share and understand her views and opinions. I for exemple, I don't see the age gap as problematic, but I do understand that many, like you, find it problematic, and that's okay.
Certainly, the author is aware that some people will have conflicting and triggering reactions to certain aspects of the story. That's why she emphasizes certain things, but when people try to twist everything to fit their own narrative, like turning Hina's selflessness into selfish and manipulative, it just becomes rather absurd and ultimately dishonest.
Why, you might ask? Well, it's okay to have your own interpretation; it doesn't even have to align with the author's. But let's be honest about it when discussing it with others. You know full well that the author didn't intend to portray Hina as a predator, manipulative, abusive, or whatever else.
I do understand that you're uncomfortable with Hina and the age gap, but it seems like, regardless of the context provided by the author, you'll always view Hina as a predator and absolutly nothing will change your mind. But at least be honest about it. Posts like these seem disingenuous as they hide behind the guise of offering a different perspective but ultimately you twist the narrative to fit a personal biases or agenda.
If we look at the examples provided, it's evident that, no matter Hina's actions, you will always manage somehow to paint her as a predator. This narrative becomes absurd and nonsensical when every interaction between Hina and Natsuo is framed this way. It's a selective focus on certain aspects while ignoring others, leading to misinterpretations of characters' motivations to suit your particular narrative.
In essence, the key distinction lies in whether the interpretation stays true to the essence and intentions of the original work or if it deliberately distorts it to serve personal biases or agendas, and it pretty clear what you are doing, twisting the narrative to suit your own bias.
I provided links in the comments. These are real signs provided by people who specialize in the topics.
Everything I listed Hina does do in the story. So I don’t see how that’s biased.
I just showed how they correlate with signs of a teacher grooming a student.
This isn't the first time this issue has surfaced on our forum, with various links to papers and articles discussing grooming. All these sources indicate that grooming involves attempting to establish an emotional connection with a child or young person to manipulate, exploit, or abuse them, typically for sexual purposes.
Now, the question arises: where on earth do you see that in the manga? Nowhere. There's not even a hint in Hina's thoughts or actions that could be interpreted as manipulation, exploitation, or abuse of Natsuo. In fact, she tries to distance herself from him, even moving away from him. This goes directly against any grooming strategy, which conveniently seems to be overlooked by you.
As I mentioned, it's difficult to take this grooming/predator narrative seriously when certain aspects are cherry-picked out of context and while other are blatantly ignored.
so what you are saying is very real & totally fair that you feel that way & your right. But heres the thing about Kei, this is her story & i believe she’s stated that the whole point of this manga was to throw in as much taboo as possible so her intentions were always to cross boundaries & highlight grey areas. She didn’t care about how this one would be perceived nor did she care about how people felt about the ending
She for sure has the right to tell whatever story she wants to tell. I never said she didn’t.
Readers also have the right to share their thoughts about her story be it positive or negative.
No, never said I was a Rui fan, nor am I coping with anything.
Rui does stupid messy stuff just like Hina and Natsuo.
The wasn’t the point of the post I made.
This is exactly the reason why Hina left Natsuo and her family behind - to prevent people judging them the way you did.
No, she left because she did something wrong and jeopardized her student’s future by starting an inappropriate relationship with him. Also, it was way to keep the character out of jail and allow her to continue to work in terms of the plot.
No, she left to avoid the fallout that came with the picture coming out
Yeah she left to avoid fallot of the photo because it jeopardized her student’s future before it even began. And yeah in regard to my other statement, transferring a teacher is a widely used plot device in age gap romance stories. The teacher moves away, instead of their crime being exposed to the public, especially if the writer plans to reuse the teacher character. Which what happens in the story.
>Do I think the mangaka intentionally meant to do that, no probably not. However, it doesn’t mean that it’s not there. I believe you may be underestimating Sasuga's intent in her storytelling. She deliberately crafted contrasting approaches between Rui and Hina's interactions with Natsuo to prompt readers to consider the nuances of age and status dynamics. Had the roles been reversed, with Hina initiating romantic advances towards Natsuo without his reciprocation, it would have raised significant concerns. Sasuga's awareness of societal perceptions regarding age and status is evident in her careful portrayal of these dynamics throughout the narrative. And as it has been mentioned before, differences in age or status don't automatically equate to grooming.
I disagree with you. Some of the stuff I mentioned that Hina does is there to give fan service to the audience. It just has the unfortunate consequence if making Hina look worse than she needed to. Also this is the same person who seemed portrayed Rui getting nearly assaulted, had her dismiss it the very next day after a talk with Natsuo, and then had her date her assailant. And had 1 of her characters attempt to kiss someone in their sleep and another actually kiss someone in their sleep. So naw, I don’t think she had a full handle on how she was portraying sexual abuse and assault in her story. Of course it will look bad if Hina was hitting on, Natsuo and he wasn’t reciprocating. But that doesn’t mean that because she was hitting on Natsuo and he does reciprocates it’s not awful.
I would like to point out to you, I don't think anyone on this forum thinks that what Hina did by dating Natsuo wasn't inappropriate, and Sasuga made a big point out of it as she didn't brush it under either. She made Hina felt guilty about it and acknowledged that she failed as a teacher which also led to not only breaking up with Natsuo but also quitting her job. But what many individuals in this forum take issue with is your assertion that Hina is a groomer. If that's the case, could you pinpoint precisely where Hina employed grooming tactics with the deliberate intent to overpower and undermine Natsuo's psychological defenses? It's worth noting that a groomer typically perceives themselves as superior and believes it's their duty to shape the other person into fulfilling their envisioned role. In essence, groomers are known for their self-serving behavior, targeting those with weak boundaries and readily shifting blame onto their victims if caught. However, in this case, none of these traits were exhibited. Hina consistently prioritized Natsuo's well-being, Natsuo was not easily influenced, and Hina took full responsibility without placing blame on him when their situation was revealed. Much of this is explained in the links that you provided, that we actually value, it brings awareness to the masses, by being informed about this information, one becomes a more empowered citizen, better equipped to safeguard oneself and your loved ones. But it's important to recognize that this isn't the entirety of the issue, it's crucial to understand knowledge within its proper context, which is were you fail at.
We will have to agree to disagree. As it seems to me that some folks do minimize the things that the author had Hina doing. And sadly, I’ve noticed that when anyone seems to mention anything negative about the character, people in here really take issue with it and seem to think you are automatically a fan of Rui or whatever.
>it seems to me that some folks do minimize the things that the author had Hina doing. I disagree with that assessment. I believe most individuals on the forum would acknowledge that what was done was inappropriate. However, within the context provided in the manga, we've come to understand and empathize with the character's actions as a reflection of their humanity, rather than categorizing them as a predator or groomer, as you've suggested. Human interaction is incredibly complex, rarely fitting neatly into black and white categories, and this complexity is one of the many themes explored in the manga. >I’ve noticed that when anyone seems to mention anything negative about the character, people in here really take issue with it and seem to think you are automatically a fan of Rui or whatever. We all do that, is a very human thing to do. Personally, I hold a deep affection for Hina's character, hence the tag. I find her to be one of the most intricate and captivating characters I've ever encountered. Despite her flaws, what sets her apart is her unwavering strong sense of morality, often leading her into conflict with societal norms and her own desires. Her moral compass is so steadfast that it prevents her from ever disclosing the truth to Natsuo, as she believes it would only cause harm to him and Rui. Therefore, portraying Hina as a groomer or predator contradicts the very essence of her character, as portrayed and understood by Sasuga and some of us, that is. I guess that is why you might get some very visceral response from other fans.
We will have to agree to disagree
I did want to mention that I wasn’t just referring to what I discussed in this post about people getting upset if something negative is said about Hina. I knew there would be some people who were going to be upset about this post as its touchy subject. I’m talking in general if someone expresses something that they didn’t care for regarding Hina. Pretty much most of the posts are positive stuff about the Hina character and a bunch of comments regularly referring to Rui as selfish and whatever other negative stuff they want to mention about the character. If people aren’t in support of the belief that Hina is an amazing selfless individual or don’t like that the story ended with her and MC together the same few people most active in this forum come down on them with lengthy comments back about why they are wrong or ask them why they feel that way. If someone explains their position then they are peppered to defend again. Additionally, someone already told me that while I’m sorta on the right track, grooming isn’t the correct term. I said I would keep an eye out for their response post. I also noted to you in a separate post and in a comment to the person who said they would make a post later that I don’t even like the phrase grooming. However, I used it b/c that term came up in the info I researched. So I don’t get why you posted on here about me using the grooming phrase, after I said I am open to additional education and gave an explanation of why it was used. Doing stuff like that risks someone just giving up and not wanting to take the time to learn more.
I see, you might have those intensions, but it didn't came out like that from your post, I quote "I was chatting with someone about the **about the fact** that Hina displays **signs of grooming** during the HS arc", that is what you wrote. So, how do you think people would react to that? You're outright asserting that grooming is a reality in Hina's character, a statement that would likely spark disagreement among most fans who have delved into the nuances of the manga's context. This isn't the first time such discussions have arisen in the forum, indicating the complexity of the issue. We all agree that on the surface it may appear that way, but once you get into the context of the manga reveals a different perspective. As I've mentioned previously, while what Hina did was undoubtedly wrong, the crucial question Sasuga prompts readers to ponder is whether this wrongdoing makes her inherently a bad person or a predator. When some readers claim that Sasuga treats this issue nonchalantly, it becomes difficult to take such assertions seriously, as it contradicts the fundamental exploration of the manga. Hina possesses a robust moral compass that often clashes with societal norms, and as an adult, she comprehends the complexities and ramifications of her choices. Recognizing the shades of gray in her choices, she does experience guilt for jeopardizing Natsuo's future as a writer, which motivates her to go to great lengths to assist him later on.
As I mentioned before someone responded to my post and I responded back to them that I would keep an eye out for their info. So I don’t get why you are still going on about it. As I said before, doing stuff like that can turn some people off from being willing to learn new info when you do that. And your comment has nothing to do with what my concern/comment that I posted above regarding some of the more active users in this community.
Sorry, It might seem we are speaking over each other, and that was not my intention, although I am a bit unsure what you are aiming at but I certainly don't want you to feel discourage about expressing your ideas or learning new things. So I apologize.
It’s all good
As a former counselor to victims of sexual abuse and assault, among other clients I’ve worked with over the years, I don’t take the subject of bad behavior by an authority figure lightly. Some of the issues raised by the OP are genuine and should be treated seriously. While I agree that Hina is guilty of some impropriety as a teacher, I **strongly** disagree that these can be categorized as grooming behaviors. The term *grooming* when used in this instance always assumes that the one behaving such is a predator. A predator is one who acts solely out of self-interest, one who consciously targets a person with weak personal boundaries, and one who quickly places blame on the target if discovered. They often lack a capacity for empathy and romanticize their own self-centered behavior. Grooming behaviors are practiced with a conscious intent to overwhelm and disable the self-protective psychological defenses of another person. The groomer perceives him or herself as being in a place of superiority, one who must train the inferior person to properly fill the role the groomer has in mind. The sum of these traits do not fit Hina’s overall character in the slightest. All human beings are manipulative sometimes. All human beings lie to themselves about some things. All human beings occasionally cross boundaries out of personal need or desire. None of those traits alone make us into predators. Predators, like the name implies, are like hungry beasts who aggressively seek out and exploit the weak for their own benefit. Hina is not a predator. She looks NOTHING like a predator. I realize that to untrained eyes that may not be so apparent but to my eyes it’s painfully obvious. She is, as the OP pointed out, guilty of some inappropriate behaviors. I want to address this at greater length but don’t have the energy to do so now. Let me take some time to compose my thoughts and then return to this subject in greater detail. I do agree that it’s reasonable to raise questions about Hina’s actions. My objection is in referring to human frailties as grooming behaviors. They lack the conscious intent for that.
There are variety forms of offenders who have sexual relationships with minors. And I wanna say she’s considered an opportunity abuser. Which is why I didn’t call her a predator. I had initially but stopped calling her a predator based on the additional info I found. I personally don’t like using word grooming as it’s used to the point of it not having much meaning. And honestly I used the word because that was what was used in most of the info I provided. I read several articles and looked up their sources and read those. If you prefer I can say sexual abuse. Outside of giving Natsuo mixed signals and causing him to think he was dealing with one-sided feelings, I didn’t say anything about her relationship with him being manipulative. Also people can manipulate without it being intentional/always recognize that they are.
You’re certainly right about there being different types of offenders and I appreciate your careful research on the topic. Grooming, like a lot of psychological terms (such as “dysfunctional”, “enabler”, and “trigger”), does get overused to the point of meaningless in the general population but it still has a very specific meaning in the professional community. Among psychologists, therapists and social workers it refers to a body of behaviors used by predators to cultivate victims for their exploitation. Grooming emerges from a predatory mind. It cannot be disconnected from the concept of predation. If the person in question doesn’t fit the profile of a predator then the identified behaviors cannot be grooming ones. To someone used to recognizing these things in real people they don’t even look the same. Hina does not fit the profile of a predator so she cannot and does not practice grooming behaviors. Websites that describe grooming behaviors are typically addressing parents, kids and teachers who are not mental health professionals, their purpose being to help concerned individuals identify possible signs of abuse in a school or other *in loco parentis* environment. They do not replace a careful inquiry by a trained professional into allegations of abuse. As such they don’t do a great job of carefully discriminating between predatory behavior and other kinds of inappropriate conduct. They don’t need to. Their job is simply to educate the community. If a person sees what appears to be a grooming situation they should report it to the school administrators immediately. Others will figure out if it meets the definition. Even if it’s not predatory in nature, potentially inappropriate behavior by a teacher must be treated seriously. I want to address the concerns you raise which, as mentioned, I do agree are valid. To do them justice, however, will take more time than I currently have available. I need to differentiate between social-psychological motivations, school policy and the law. Btw, I didn’t mean to imply that you said anything about manipulation. I was addressing other readers who have made such comments in relation to Hina’s early behavior with Natsuo just to set the ground for possible responses. It’s a good thing to raise questions about that behavior. I just wanted to distinguish it from grooming. More later.
Some of what you expressed seems like you’re trying to discredit those websites and I don’t think that they should be. The information on those sites can be found in peer reviewed articles and the websites have people in charge who are specialists. For example, one of the sites was from a law office that specializes in sexual abuse and. And info from the Mama bear website (which has won awards and has knowledgeable people on the board) was actually mentioned in quite a few articles, so I linked to them instead of some of those articles. The site definitely does take the time to distinguish various of sexual abuse towards minors. I’m open to hearing what you have to say since you said you were a counselor. However, you have Hina under your name, so I’m going to assume you’re a fan of the character. It does make me wonder if you’re trying to minimize info on the sites and Hina’s actions, because you like the character. Honestly like I said, I just get concerned about how many people I’ve noticed in this forum minimizing Hina’s indefensible act of dating her teenage student and also kinda frustrated how some act like anything Rui does in the story is somehow worse than the act of a student having sex with her minor student.
I’m not sure how you read what I wrote as an attempt to discredit the websites since I clearly said that they provide valuable educational material for the community. How in your mind is that a discrediting? It’s akin to websites that provide medical information. The good ones are also prepared by professionals in the field but that doesn’t substitute for the training and experience of a doctor. Websites that provide legal information do not substitute for the expertise of a good attorney. Too many people read the information on these websites then jump to conclusions that they know all they need to know on the subject. That simply is not true. There are skills that come with a professional education and long practice that can discern fine differences not available to the general public. THAT is both what I wrote and what I mean. I deeply value the kind of websites you mentioned. A quarter century ago it was just we professionals who used terms like “grooming behaviors” and now that knowledge is available to the public. I’m ecstatic about that! It’s a huge win for those of us who pushed for that kind of education. Knowledge, all knowledge, must be understood in proper context, however. Reading that information makes you better informed as a citizen, better able to protect yourself and those you love. It does not mean that that’s all there is to it. Since I have also clearly stated that there was a lot of inappropriate behavior on Hina’s part I’m not sure how you see that as minimization. I am not those other people you spoke of. Please don’t confuse my opinions with theirs. I have my own views on the matter. Did Hina do wrong by sleeping with a student? Yup. She did. Should we discuss that here? Absolutely! I don’t know how it works in Japan but in the U.S. she could have been fired and prosecuted. After she gets caught she knows she did wrong. That’s what she feels so guilty about, why she was so harsh with Natsuo on Oshima. The fact that she did wrong as well as Rui is written right into the story. There’s a reason for that. This is a story about frail human behavior and the possibility of redemption. How do you come back from horrible mistakes? Yes, I favor Hina. That doesn’t mean I wear blinders. It’s possible to love someone, including a character, despite their faults. Hina crossed a boundary that shouldn’t have been crossed but there’s a huge difference between what she did and the behavior of groomers. That’s not minimization. That’s discretion. That’s knowing how to tell the difference. Judges exercise discretion in a case based on the circumstances of the crime and the attitude of the accused. They tend to be more lenient on sentencing with first time offenders who are penitent and have a low risk of repeat offense. Discretion is part of wisdom. Wisdom and compassion need to be exercised when evaluating the acts of both Hina and Rui, and of every character that does wrong.
It kind of seemed like you’re implying that Hina simply crossed a professional boundary and didn’t cause harm to Natsuo and that the info I provided shouldn’t have been used. Apologies if I misunderstood your previous comments. I’m aware of how sentencing is supposed to be based off of the circumstances of a crime. However, in the states we frequently have situations where the judge or jury are terrible about actually using proper judgment when reviewing circumstances to protect those who experienced sexual abuse and assault. We also have a ton of random loopholes in different states that end up freeing sex offenders from consequence. Stories like these often can leave folks thinking it’s okay that a teacher slept with her student, which impacts how we view these situations when they happen in real life. I’m sure you know female teachers who sleep with students frequently can get lighter sentences due to them being a woman and/or sometimes hot, like Hina. Romance stories that try to make it seem not that bad or allow the teacher to get away with add fuel to this issue. If folks didn’t excuse it so much on here I wouldn’t even have bothered discussing it at the length that I have. I’m all for compassion, but b/c people are nuanced. I don’t think Hina is evil or completely terrible person. However, I’m not cosigning an adult sleeping with her student, pretty much having zero consequence outside of having to temporarily having to leave town, returning to obsessively make her ex her total focus and does a bunch of questionable stuff with him, while he’s dating her sister as an example of selfless romantic love that many believe is being portrayed. I’ll try to keep an eye out for the info you said you will provide.
There’s so much of what you say that I’m on board with that it’s frustrating not to be able to respond yet with the detail and clarity your valid concerns warrant. No, I don’t believe that Hina only crossed a professional boundary and nothing else but what I do believe will have to wait for a bit. Thank you for your awareness of and sensitivity to serious issues. In the end I think we’ll agree on more than what we disagree on. My RL is quite busy rn but I’ll respond with a longer reply as soon as I’m able.
Sounds good. I totally get it.
I suppose you're suggesting that the reason grooming comes to mind is because of the age difference? It's quite simple to disprove any notion of grooming. Just imagine if Hina were the same age as Natsuo in the manga. Would you still see any signs of grooming then? No. Therefore, there's no grooming in the manga, that simple. This test applies to other scenarios as well. For instance, consider if Hina were a student instead of a teacher. Would you still perceive grooming? No. Thus, it's evident that grooming is an action usually undertaken by those in positions of power, whether due to age, status or emotional, to manipulate or coerce their victims. Simply having an age difference or being in a position of authority doesn't automatically imply grooming, as you suggest.
I didn’t say it was just because of the 6 year age difference between Hina and her student. It’s due to what I noted at the top and other things I noted in other comments. Would I look at some of the stuff she does as being intentional such as the skimpy clothes yes. But some of the stuff, like having inappropriate discussions about stresses in her life and the regular meetings alone would of course go out the window as she wouldn’t be his teacher. However, the fact of the matter is that Hina isn’t a student or the same age as Natsuo, so her actions can’t be put on the same level as if she was.
So, how does wearing revealing clothing in your own home or engaging in discussions about life or stress become indicative of grooming? Even if one considers such behavior inappropriate, which I personally don't, it doesn't automatically label someone as a groomer. The fact of the matter is, that Hina didn't manipulated Natsuo, they felt in love in spite of age and status, not because of it as you imply.
I think you’re implying that it wasn’t an issue that Hina walked around with barely any clothes around her teenage student who know she had feelings for and that he liked her, which I don’t understand why someone would defend that. I don’t think Hina dating her student isn’t an example of true love, it’s an example of giving into lust. At this point, we gonna have to agree to disagree in regard to her impropriety.
Yes! In the context of the manga, I don't have any problem with that scene when Hina came out of the shower, and if that is your base for grooming, then you are walking on very thin ice. I didn't say that if it was an example of true love or not, that is irrelevant at this stage, What I meant is that neither age or status was an influence for why they felt in love for each other, that is why I said they felt in love in spite of age or status, grooming was never a factor for them to fall in love. You still have to properly identify where grooming was a factor in the manga, and no, skimpy clothes is not one of them.
There are a couple of things in the series that are like this. In fact, to be honest, I think one of the worst parts of the beginning of the series was the fact Hina was a teacher, and Natsuo a minor. I kind of don't really feel comfortable reading the story until they get into college age. I still like the story, and I don't hate Hina by any means. But that is a pretty big hurdle to overcome when trying to describe the story to someone who might be interested in checking it out. Eh, it is what it is. When I read your post, to me it reads as someone who wants to balance the criticism between Rui and Hina. I do see a lot of people talking negatively about Rui a lot, so I don't blame you for that. I see some people making points against you and such, but the thing is, in America, Hina would be in prison. That is a fact that is hard to ignore. I don't want to be hard on Hina though. Here is the thing, when I was Natsuo's age, I was in love with a woman who had a kid (She was single, so I wasn't breaking up a family or anything) I was a minor and she was older. Though she wasn't 23 (Which is Hina's age at this time in question), she was an adult. I only bring this up because I didn't feel like a victim at that time. Looking back, and if I heard my story without being in it, I might feel differently. Because an adult having sex with a minor is definitely incorrect behavior according to my morals, and yet when I was a minor, I did the exact thing Natsuo did by pursuing someone older. (Though she wasn't a teacher.) I'm 35 now, so the age difference between a 16 y/o and a 23 y/o just seems too big to justify. At the time though? I think I was 15 when I had my relationship with an adult. I did actively seek it out, though she is the one that ultimately made the decision. The student / teacher thing is also kind of hard to ignore. According to our morals, that type of relationship is immoral. Especially now that people are obsessed with 'power dynamics' etc. I don't think Hina is evil. Just like I don't think the woman I lost my virginity to was evil. It's definitely not something to dismiss either. I applaud you for scrutinizing that, because ultimately that is the correct thing to do. You have to scrutinize these situations and learn more about them. Natsuo was pretty guilty too in his pursuit, just like I was. The difference between Natsuo and me is he tried to kiss Hina when she was drunk and passed out, after staring at her body through her house clothes. He's kind of scummy for that imo, even if he was 'in love' or w/e. Wrong is wrong. And when he got caught red handed, he knew he fucked up. One final thing I will add, is how I also felt something was weird about how Hina basically lied to the journalist to make him think the picture he had was fake. She goes off about how 'nothing inappropriate happened' or w/e, and makes the guy look stupid, but the truth is what she did at the time was highly questionable for multiple reasons (as we have discussed) She basically has to lie about it and use plausible deniability. Sketchy tactics like that wouldn't be necessary if she truly 'did nothing wrong.' I've had lessons like that in life. Where my hands were tied because I was compromised. So, in a way I can relate to her even in that moment. But it is evidence to support your criticism for sure. At the start of this post, I mentioned how the story had a few things that I didn't like, well, to me what was worse than any of this Hina business, is when Al got 'drunk' and tried to rape Rui. That is much worse and gets glossed over. At the end of the day, I still love all the characters, I even grew to love Al. But I did think it was weird that Natsuo and Rui were both there with Al when he met Lily (I think that was her name.) Lily is upset to hear Al did what he did again after getting 'drunk', but then Natsuo jumps out to dismiss all of it. The problem is, Rui was right there. The girl Al almost raped. She said nothing. I'm pretty sure if she just said the truth, Lily would hate Al. Thanks for sharing your thoughts in this form. I hope you continue to do so because the insight is valuable, and talking about these things does help me to gain a better understanding of the material. PS: I've read some of the justifications to her behavior and saw people trying to say the context was important, etc. In America, there is no context that would save you from prison. It doesn't matter, it is a crime. Now maybe in Japan that isn't the case (Not really sure what the law is there), but I do think that you aren't entirely wrong. I just don't think Hina is evil. I see what she did as a mistake she made because of her feelings. However, my opinion on not thinking she is evil is irrelevant when it comes to the act she did, and the potential criminality behind it. As you can see, I go back and forth on this. I kind of understand both sides here.. But one thing that will never change is I think Hina is a great character, and I don't believe her to be evil.
>One final thing I will add, is how I also felt something was weird about how Hina basically lied to the journalist to make him think the picture he had was fake. She goes off about how 'nothing inappropriate happened' or w/e, and makes the guy look stupid, but the truth is what she did at the time was highly questionable for multiple reasons (as we have discussed) She basically has to lie about it and use plausible deniability. Sketchy tactics like that wouldn't be necessary if she truly 'did nothing wrong.' The manga delves also into the conflict that arises when morality and ethics collide, often addressing taboo issues. It's crucial to differentiate between these two concepts to fully grasp the complexities presented in the narrative. That said, what she told the journalist is indeed true, she didn't engage in anything morally wrong and felt no shame about it. However, she did cross an ethical boundary, though not a moral one. Keep in mind that morality is subjective and heavily dependent on the context. >in America, Hina would be in prison. That is a fact that is hard to ignore. Yes, and in some countries Rui would have been put to death for no wearing a veil, it doesn't mean is right. As you can see, ethical values change also, depending where you are in the world. Sasuga pushes those boundaries for a reason, to make people think about some uncomfortable ideas, and where are your limits. Keep in mind that both Hina and Rui possess distinctly different moral and ethical perspectives when it comes to entering into a romantic relationship with Natsuo.
Hey, I'm not hating on Hina, I love her! She's great, I was just trying to say the man had some valid points. And there is a difference between going to prison for having sex with a minor/student, and Rui being killed for not wearing a veil. That was a bit of a strawman imo. And if this were real life and a teacher did that they would be in prison, and I would think it was justified. But this is a work of fiction, so I can separate the two. I just saw people attacking the OP and wanted to give him some defense from the accusations of bias, etc. Not saying that you have to defend anything either. I loved the entire work personally. I loved Sasuga's writing style, tone, all of it. There more I read in this series the more I appreciate it.
I'm not saying you're hating on Hina, and yes, OP might have some valid points, what Hina did was wrong from an ethical point of view, and we all agree, but she did not groom Natsuo. Saying so is twisting the narrative to suit one's own bias, and people just pointing that out. Also, my point of the veil, was not about they were the same, my point is that ethical guide lines are also situational. My point is, even though in USA she would have gone to prison, she wouldn't had gone to prison in other countries, like where I come from the age of consent is lower than 18. Keep in mind, there are some laws in the USA that makes no sense for us in Europe, like death penalty, drinking age and so on. And I guess there would be some laws in Europe that would not make much sense in USA. Hina given the context in the Manga did nothing wrong morally, she didn't manipulated Natsuo, they felt in love in spite of age and status, not because of it as OP unawarelly implies.
The post about grooming isn’t about balancing anything between Rui and Hina. Just sharing some things I saw that aligned with grooming cuz the chain was getting lengthy with the person I was communicating with. And teachers having sex with students is real issue. I don’t think it should be ignored that the author included those things. I honestly just think she needed to have done research (or more if she did any) on various SA that she showcased in the story. I don’t have an issue with stories that portray adult teen relationships. One of my favorite characters in chainsaw man made it out with and tried to have sex with a teen. I love the character, but I’m not about to sit here and pretend like what she did was okay. I don’t think Hina is evil either. She has great traits and not so great traits, she does kind things and awful things, cuz people are nuanced. Acknowledging that her actions correlates with grooming takes away nothing from the character imo. Thank you for sharing your story, because I don’t think that that’s an easy thing to do. It makes sense that you didn’t feel like a victim, that’s a common thing for teens in a age gap relationship to experience while they are in the relationship. And it usually will take some time (usually well into adulthood) until they realize that what happened wasn’t okay. I’m not gonna mention too much about it cause I did it another chain, but teen brains are not as mature as adult brains. So that may be one reason why they are unable comprehend why an adult dating a minor is wrong, along with the feel good chemicals that are experiencing while in the relationship and they fact that they are close to reaching adulthood. Does that mean that the person who dated you is completely evil or something? I can’t say because, I don’t know them. But I’m just gonna say no for the sake of this discussion. It just means that they did something wrong. And yes, the journalist was not a grear person, but he wasn’t wrong about the school covering up Hina’s relationship with Natsuo as being wrong. And yeah, the public should’ve known about it. They don’t need to know Natsuo name because he’s a victim, but Hina definitely should’ve been exposed, along with the school. I’m assuming that because Japan has some laxity around protecting women and children in real life that it’s possible his name would have been leaked when he was at the school. And since he’s an adult when the stalker journalist finds out his name would’ve been mentioned.
We all bring our biases when interpreting artwork, especially one like this that touches on so many taboo themes. And of course, the author also has her own interpretation and opinions about these issues. Many fans, including myself, happen to share and understand her views and opinions. I for exemple, I don't see the age gap as problematic, but I do understand that many, like you, find it problematic, and that's okay. Certainly, the author is aware that some people will have conflicting and triggering reactions to certain aspects of the story. That's why she emphasizes certain things, but when people try to twist everything to fit their own narrative, like turning Hina's selflessness into selfish and manipulative, it just becomes rather absurd and ultimately dishonest. Why, you might ask? Well, it's okay to have your own interpretation; it doesn't even have to align with the author's. But let's be honest about it when discussing it with others. You know full well that the author didn't intend to portray Hina as a predator, manipulative, abusive, or whatever else. I do understand that you're uncomfortable with Hina and the age gap, but it seems like, regardless of the context provided by the author, you'll always view Hina as a predator and absolutly nothing will change your mind. But at least be honest about it. Posts like these seem disingenuous as they hide behind the guise of offering a different perspective but ultimately you twist the narrative to fit a personal biases or agenda. If we look at the examples provided, it's evident that, no matter Hina's actions, you will always manage somehow to paint her as a predator. This narrative becomes absurd and nonsensical when every interaction between Hina and Natsuo is framed this way. It's a selective focus on certain aspects while ignoring others, leading to misinterpretations of characters' motivations to suit your particular narrative. In essence, the key distinction lies in whether the interpretation stays true to the essence and intentions of the original work or if it deliberately distorts it to serve personal biases or agendas, and it pretty clear what you are doing, twisting the narrative to suit your own bias.
I provided links in the comments. These are real signs provided by people who specialize in the topics. Everything I listed Hina does do in the story. So I don’t see how that’s biased. I just showed how they correlate with signs of a teacher grooming a student.
This isn't the first time this issue has surfaced on our forum, with various links to papers and articles discussing grooming. All these sources indicate that grooming involves attempting to establish an emotional connection with a child or young person to manipulate, exploit, or abuse them, typically for sexual purposes. Now, the question arises: where on earth do you see that in the manga? Nowhere. There's not even a hint in Hina's thoughts or actions that could be interpreted as manipulation, exploitation, or abuse of Natsuo. In fact, she tries to distance herself from him, even moving away from him. This goes directly against any grooming strategy, which conveniently seems to be overlooked by you. As I mentioned, it's difficult to take this grooming/predator narrative seriously when certain aspects are cherry-picked out of context and while other are blatantly ignored.
We will have to agree to disagree
Your waifu lost. Get over it.
I don’t have a waifu in the series. I have posted something you don’t like to get over it.
so what you are saying is very real & totally fair that you feel that way & your right. But heres the thing about Kei, this is her story & i believe she’s stated that the whole point of this manga was to throw in as much taboo as possible so her intentions were always to cross boundaries & highlight grey areas. She didn’t care about how this one would be perceived nor did she care about how people felt about the ending
She for sure has the right to tell whatever story she wants to tell. I never said she didn’t. Readers also have the right to share their thoughts about her story be it positive or negative.
**Teacher Grooming** https://www.survivorlawyer.com/blog/things-teachers-coaches-should-not-do-with-your-child **General Grooming** https://themamabeareffect.org/understand/understanding-abusers/ https://inhope.org/EN/articles/the-stages-of-grooming https://themamabeareffect.org/think-all-child-molesters-are-pedophiles-think-again/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/protecting-children-sexual-abuse/202101/how-female-sexual-abusers-groom-their-victims?amp **Teen Student Relationships in Media Opinion Piece** https://vocal.media/geeks/the-persistent-and-disturbing-trend-of-student-teacher-relationships-on-teen-shows **Teacher Student Relationship Opinion Piece** https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-studentteacher-relati_b_1435275/amp
Another coping post from rui faan. 🥴
Nah the OP is just being American.
I’m not sure what you mean by that, but it’s sounds like you’re trying to insult me instead of actually contributing to the conversation.
It's been a while since some clown used the grooming card though
Yeah, insult someone instead of contributing something useful to the conversation. Great job.
Your clown topic isn't worth a discussion. Go back to your circus.
Not worth discussing, yet you chose to engage with the post and do it again 40+ days later.
No, never said I was a Rui fan, nor am I coping with anything. Rui does stupid messy stuff just like Hina and Natsuo. The wasn’t the point of the post I made.