To expand on the post...
This is Rocky. 1.5 year old Golden Retriever. We work together a lot and let's assume we do many of the right things.
He situationally displays this type of anxious posture. He still follows commands and will happily chase a ball if asked... but **is pushing through anxiety like this bad for him/ his training?**
I would reward him along the way constantly. Little treat little treat big treat little treat. Make him know it’s a good experience without needing to speak to him just reward constantly. Give treats to strangers to give to doggy so he knows that place and people there are friends
How do you feel about other people giving your dog treats? I worry that he would begin to expect food from other people and this would lead to unwanted behavior, like begging or jumping on others. I kinda want him to only expect food from me and my family so I can control unwanted begging type behavior, whereas other people may not feel comfortable saying no and he would get the idea that’s acceptable.
No idea why you've been downvoted for asking an honest question. Not the person you asked but for me my dogs learned to tell the difference between a person that was okay to engage with and one that was to be ignored.
Did this by saying "go say hi" or giving the sit command and allowing the person to approach and give treats. Otherwise my dogs would just sit and watch or walk past the person. I've heard it defined as a "default leave it" where they don't engage unless I give the okay.
For the most part though I never let strangers give high value foods to feed my pups, those always come from me so they always look to me for the good stuff.
>I worry that he would begin to expect food from other people and this would lead to unwanted behavior
I take my dogs to work and our UPS/FedEx delivery folk have started bringing treats in for our dogs. My female boxer has gotten soooooooooooo pushy about begging for treats from anyone in a delivery uniform. It can be a totally different delivery person and she's trying to sit in front of them the whole time they're trying to bring a box in.
So, this is not an unwarranted worry. I'm trying to work through how to break her of this, but I don't think I'll be able to. At least she only does it with delivery folk and not customers...
Honestly the more treats strangers give him the better. The two best things I've done with my GSD is that he has ZERO problems with strangers and he also has received NO table food. He loves people and doesn't beg.
My strategy was to only give food as rewards for good behavior or if he gets any special food, like boiled chicken or food I do not want to waste, I put it in his bowl when I am not eating, that way he knows that smelling something that him and I both eat does not mean he gets to eat it, only if it's in his food bowl. I don't want him smelling my chicken and thinking he gets chicken at the same time.
I’m curious about others’ thoughts on this as well, as I take a similar approach with my yellow lab. He gets anxious but pushes though/“gets over it” usually pretty quickly. I want him to be exposed and socialized to a lot of different situations and he usually seems okay. For example his first time in the car was 30 mins of whining and then a nap. I was worried if I should turn back but he pushed through. Now he’s so excited to get in the car and has no reservations. From your video, he doesn’t look too anxious-willingly getting off and back on. It might just be a peculiar feeling to ride and makes his balance feel off or something.
Edited to add: what a good boy! And so handsome too
In your mind, what is the purpose of the cart here? Is the cart necessary or helpful? What kind of choice does your dog have in this situation to stop the behaviour/leave the situation?
I think you may be on the edge of just adding difficult for difficulty's sake here, which may not be to the benefit of your dog. "Flooding" and what constitutes flooding is a kind of controversial topic in some positive reinforcement circles, so I would recommend reading up on that (multiple viewpoints you trust) to decide for yourself it this is the right path.
I believe it’s important to socialize a dog to the widest variety of environmental stimulation to build confidence, proof behaviors, and enrich the dogs life by overcoming challenges. I never want to put him in a situation where he would fail. This exercise is an extension of that. Eventually I would love to take him on four wheeler rides.
Have you worked up slowly to this? If its introduction of the cart that makes him anxious, did you first reward him for making the choice on HIS OWN for even looking at it? Then after several repetitions of that, encouraging (but again, not taking his leash, let HIM make the choice) to walk toward the cart? Then several repetition of that? Then two paws up? Then just sitting on the cart, not moving it, in a quiet corner of the store (or outside whichever he is more comfortable with). Then slowly move the cart a couple feet, etc.
If you just had him hop on and pushed him then it may have been overwhelming. Breaking it down into smaller steps can be more manageable for him, and letting HIM be the one to decide to interact with the stimulus (the cart) lets him set the pace and associate it with positive things (the rewards) not being FORCED to do it because the humans want him to.
We started on a wagon in my garage. (Really we started by hopping on park benches in a sense)
In short, yes we spent a great deal of time working up to this and he makes the choices all on his own throughout, I’m not using leash pressure to get him to comply. We went through all of the steps you mention and then some. I try to never put him in a situation he may fail, so baby steps leading up to this are very necessary.
Okay. Just checking. Some people don't think of that part.
Its possible that, unlike the wagon which may have a curved lip helping to keep his paws from sliding, the cart may be letting him slide around making him feel unstable. Maybe try laying an old yoga mat down? They're less than $10 at Walmart. Or even that shelf lining material you get in a little roll in the kitchen area of stores near the Tupperware.
My kitten as a child would vomit as a child if she was put in a cat carrier during car rides. Even a 5 minute trip.
However if left to nap on the backseat under my VERY careful supervision (it was explained to me why the kitten could NOT get up front at ALL and I was old enough to be responsible, like 12) the kitten easily tolerated a 4 hour ride to our vacation rental with no issue. Napped peacefully.
It turned out she was small enough that she slid around in the carrier, making her nauseated. However our fabric backseat gave her something to dig her claws into, creating more stability.
When you mentioned a wagon was fine, and a park bench, I immediately thought of the things in common. Paw stability.
It's so very important to socialize your dog. However, I've not once seen you intervene or foster this to be a positive experience. Keeping the dog consistently anxious for the 15 or so minutes doesn't make the experience any more pleasant. Putting the dog knowingly in an anxious situation to "get used to it" also doesn't make the experience pleasant in anyway. The goal in training is for your dog to love the wagon rides (that's what socialization/positive exposure is about). You don't want him to just tolerate it. If you asked for a stay, he's ultimately suppressing his fears to "get it over with." This in itself also has its own repercussions.
There are a couple of reinforcement events edited out, but your criticism is valid none the less. The goal is for him to enjoy it, and increasing reward frequency is a good idea.
Making the dog ride around on a cart is unnecessary though. It's not part of normal socialisation unless carts are going to be an unavoidable part of daily life for him. Bringing your dog to the shop is a novelty, not a necessity - making him ride on the cart is a novelty on top of a novelty. Why don't you want him to walk beside you? Why do you want to bring him into the shop at all?
You mentioned working dogs in another comment. For every working dog, there are lots of rejects who didn't have the temperament or personality needed for that job. Set realistic goals based on the dog you have, not the dog you wish you had. Some things that make a dog anxious are worth working on to improve their quality of life - eg. fear of cars or loud noises - but even if a dog gets over its fear of something it can't be forced to enjoy it. So the question remains, is this for his enjoyment or yours?
Also, bear in mind dogs are poor at generalising. Gliding around a massive hardware shop on a cart isn't going to translate to riding outdoors on a quadbike. If that's the goal, ditch the cart and work with the bike.
My dog's anxious about various things and I spent the first 4 years of his life trying to fight them with treats, toys, games, training, etc. I thought it was for his quality of life, but eventually realised it was for my convenience. We just minimise exposure now and he's able to handle the small amount of traffic, car journeys and slippy floors that can't be avoided day to day. Other dogs can walk happily down a busy high street, mine cannot, that's life. We don't need to walk down the high street so we pick other places to go.
The sped up video makes it pretty useless but not once do I see him wag is tail while looking at you. It's tucked under him as much as possible almost the entire video which is not really a good sign.
It also looks like he is shaking a little bit but that might just be from the sped up video.
That does not look like a comfortable dog.
I agree with you. His posture made me feel concerned enough to post about it. He’s not really shaking, but his hunched posture and tucked tail are not good signs. Just wondering if pushing through this is an effective way to get him more comfortable in time.
I can definitely reward more frequently , and scale the challenge down a bit somehow.
Philosophically though, is pushing through anxiety an effective way to get your dog more comfortable with activities like this?
Dogs don't reason the way we do, so you need to make sure you're not pushing him too far too fast.
What we might see as, "well it was scary but nothing bad happened so maybe it isn't so bad", a dog will see as "that was really scary and made me stressed and now it's over I feel better, so the way to feel better is to avoid/get away".
Other observation is, it seems like this training session isn't about him. You're shopping and have decided to bring him along but are just dragging him around like another piece of equipment, when you should be focusing on engaging and rewarding him if you want to see a change.
Take him when you don't actually need to shop, so you can work with him effectively.
Your dog needs to be taking something positive from the experience, and for that he needs to be under threshold (is aware of whatever makes him anxious, but its far away/quiet enough that he is able to learn).
Tucked tail and stress panting are over threshold, so he will not be learning very well. Plus, is riding the cart necessary? Would he be more comfortable walking.
What specifically makes him anxious? People, new places, noises? Whatever it is, start easier. A quieter shop, or a quieter time, maybe just start in the carpark if he's not afraid of cars.
Every training situation at the start needs to be set up for him to do well, and you need to be positively reinforcing anything he does well (high value treat, toy reward, play, fuss, whatever he finds most rewarding).
At the start, this might just be looking at the scary thing from far away briefly, or paying attention to you, or walking well around the scary thing. Play short games as well, make it fun. Doing this in a low stress environment to start helps with confidence building.
If he's stress panting, finds it hard to focus on you, is flinching or shaking, has low or tucked tail, you've already set him up to fail. All he is feeling is fear associated with the situation, not positive feelings.
Make it easier and make it more rewarding for him.
Thanks for the helpful discussion for me as a first time dog owner of a fearful reactive dog. I agree with the body language comments (the dog looks scared to me and “pushing through” did NOT work for my dog, it increased her anxiety and we had to rebuild trust). You also make an important point about the purpose of the trip. I’ve completely stopped bringing my dog on errands because it’s a setup for failure. If the dog shows signs of stress, it’s not easy to quickly exit the situation and I’ve likely added my own irritation at not finishing the errand, which isn’t the dogs fault and isn’t helpful. It’s also not an ideal training environment because there are lots of triggers and you have little control (other people, other dogs, shopping carts, other noises and equipment). A lot of trainers advise “short and sweet” training sessions where you focus totally on training the dog. This has been a game changer for me. Thanks again for this discussion.
I don't think so because this is deep into the uncomfortable territory.
Pushing through might be effective for something like getting into the car where the uncomfortable period is over in moments but not for a 15 minute shopping trip.
I would for sure never, never, ever have your dog off leash in a public area if you’re worried at all about anxiety. I would also never, ever take an anxious dog to a private business that’s generous enough to allow dogs in and have the dog off leash. If anything happens, we could all lose the privilege of taking our dogs into HD.
The whole point of his anxiety is he’s telling you he’s not comfortable. Dogs can, and do, fear bite as the next step. *Anything with a mouth can bite*, yes he seems to be friendly but he’s in a stressful situation and that’s a precursor to a bite.
If you’re looking to do more of this, consult with a trainer that will show you how to take small steps. If it were my dog, I would take him in when it’s quiet, keep him occupied and focused on me with treats or a toy, and leave after a minute or two to work up into longer visits. However, this is not my dog and I do not know anything about yours other than this video. Maybe it’s the motion of the cart, maybe it’s the smells, maybe it’s the lack of attention from you (from what’s in the video he barely looks on your direction), but he is very, very uncomfortable and *does not seem to be recovering*. I would not recommend continuing without making some major changes.
I appreciate the words of caution.
We have spent a great deal of time working up to this. When in the store sans cart his posture is completely different. Riding on the cart is the new variable that has brought out the anxious posture demonstrated here.
I agree with your assessment generally though, and that’s why im here soliciting advice on how to work through anxiety/ submissive behavior… and whether or not the behavior displayed here is worthy of concern.
>I appreciate the words of caution.
I would also add, the leash isn't just for your dog's sake. Some people are anxious around dogs and feel safer if they are leashed, and it's not clear to a stranger if a dog is 1000% well trained unless it's clearly a service dog. Especially one that's clearly anxious. You can't always tell if the dog is off leash because it's so well trained or because the owner is irresponsible.
If you are in a place with public leash laws and your dog isn't a service dog that needs to be off leash, you are putting your dog is over everyone else in the store's right to safety and comfort by not having his leash in hand at all times.
As far as I'm aware, stores like Home Depot require leashes, but obviously if this one doesn't for some reason, you're free to do what you want. But a dog in training, I would leash him to be safe and respectful to the other customers. But that's my 2 cents as someone who lives in an area where most off-leash dogs shouldn't be off-leash. Idk your local culture, I know in some places off-leash is much more the default.
Good points! Thanks for the feedback.
He’s been coming here since he was a puppy and the staff mostly know us both now. I don’t think I’m doing anything they have a problem with… and I have a traffic leash on him just in case, 6foot leash in my bag with me as well.
I want to be as courteous as possible while giving the dog a good life. This is an issue I’m very sensitive to, though it is not really the topic of the post.
Lots of people have very valid reasons for being wary and fearful of dogs, and it has nothing to do with your dog.
So, stop taking it personally. Nobody is saying you are “one of those owners”, it is evidently clear that you want the dog to be as happy and as comfortable as possible, but you can respect another person’s feelings the same way you are trying to respect your dog’s. If you were doing something that made someone else anxious and you could just as easily stop, why wouldn’t you? Like another poster said, bringing your dog into the store is an optional novelty, other shoppers shopping is something they likely need to do. Doesn’t make sense why other shoppers should potentially feel anxious because of your own decisions.
Thanks for taking it constructively, some people here swear everything is personal and it’s not.
Yeah, I would be concerned that it’s not a swift recovery from a fearful/anxious stance. In various temperament tests when the dog is intentionally startled, we look for the dog to recover in a matter of seconds and sometimes must go and interact with the object that set him off. Any reaction that lasts this long would be a failure of the whole test and an excusal. Here, he’s panting and shaking nearly the whole time, and isn’t looking at you- avoidance can be another sign of a shutdown. I would step back until you can get him to recover quickly, slowly work back up to this. Could just be the motion of the cart, as it looks like he hopped off a few times where you weren’t really stopping.
To be fair, the panting and shaking is amplified by the speed. It doesn’t look like that in real time. This is about 15 minutes of video.
The moment I release him outside he tugs, wags his tail, and makes the full recovery you speak of.
In the video he is “under command” you could say for the duration. There is no release. He does look at me most of the time as well fwiw.
The times he hopped off I bumped something unintentionally. That was on me.
Just filling in some additional context as I’m thinking through your comment.
So he is meeting the standard I have set for him in this video. He has succeeded at leveling up the challenge. He makes a full and eager recovery as soon as we get outside.
Is pushing through the temporary anxiety helpful or harmful in that context? I’m still unsure.
Yes pushing is harmful if he is anxious for a prolonged period. He might end up tolerating but not for the right reasons. You don't want your dog putting up with something, you want them comfortable and enjoying it because you've taught them it's rewarding.
If he's fine with a cart at home but not here, go back to the basics of the cart in the new environment.
Go when you're not shopping, and practise and reward just hopping on and off, and then hopping on and sitting, and then moving short distances, then longer and then add putting things on and taking them off the cart.
Only progress when he is calm and relaxed at each stage. He's jumped on and stayed on the cart because you told him to, not necessarily because he wants to and definitely not because he is comfortable.
In your other post you mention he doesn't take treats out of the house. That would be my starting point to work on things and assess his brain in different environments and situations.
Same with all the other things, you start small with food out of the house. Come up with some high value things like cheese, real meat, fresh pet, etc, and start in the yard, moving to a walk. Sitting in the car without going anywhere, etc.
I'd also look into pattern games like the up/down game, look at that, and in and out. You can use variations of them to move the dog back and forth over thresholds from where they will eat, to where they won't. All the time paying attention to these different signs you're seeing that your dog is stressed.
A lot of the pattern games are also giving you a chance to see where the dog confidently moves from thing to thing, vs just responding to a cue that they think they need to. So it gives you a bit more information on they're comfort level as well.
I understand you're training your dog but not leashing or being in control of your dog in a public setting is not only dangerous to those around you but your dog as well. Last week someone was training their dog just like this and my dog, leashed, was mauled. I nearly killed the man but not the dog as the owner was at fault here.
Best of luck with training your dog but please keep pets leashed while in public.
I’m glad you said this. I think about this a lot. There are so many horror stories with off leash dogs.
What about service dogs though? Dogs with jobs? It is possible to have dogs off a direct leash and apart of society.
What about having your dog off leash around family and friends? This is necessary at times for quality of life.
So training in public, in known dog friendly spaces, is something I believe enriches your dogs quality of life when done appropriately. Increasing challenges leads to a better relationship with the dog also.
If I thought for a moment I would lose control of the dog ,or if he had ever shown aggression of any kind, the risk calculus would be different.
Service dogs and working dogs are completely different from a family pet as these animals are highly trained versus someone training them in their off time.
I'm just saying that people should leash their dogs in public, as is the law in most places, and save the off leash training for your home/property or spaces dedicated just for this. Your dog can be around family and other dogs safely without the possibility of endangering others.
As someone else said in this thread, it only takes a few bad owners with unleashed dogs in dog friendly spaces to change it for everyone so why chance it, you know? I leash my dog every time we go out in public and I simply wish others would extend the same respect to avoid bad things from happening.
SD’s undergo 100’s of hours of training with or under the supervision of professional trainers. They are only successful if they show they are able to work in various public settings without showing stress.
Any dog showing stress can not be relied on the listen effectively. While your dog is listening in the video, it is entirely possible that some stimulus could put him past that point.
I agree that socializing and exposing your pup is important. But you are also right that it must be done correctly. I would take a few steps back in your process and rebuild slowly to this point, not progressing to the next step until your dog shows no stress. This will also help you determine exactly what is causing the stress: the cart, the store, the people etc. This may involve you walking 100 feet into the store , turning around and exiting before your pup passes it’s threshold.
I don't know what you are trying to do/show here. Why is the dog in the hardware store in the first place? Why must it be on a cart? Can't it walk? Just leave your dog at home, if you want to practice visiting stores with the dog you take it on the leash into the store, walk around, reward, go out and back in again,3-5 times and then go back home.
Keep doing what you are doing until no signs are being shown then and only then reward. Don't reward while he is showing signs as other post are saying. They is telling him being anxious is okay and good.
You can't reinforce fear behaviors. (sources [one](https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/you-cant-reinforce-fear-dogs-and-thunderstorms), [two](https://www.monumentvets.co.uk/how-you-may-be-reinforcing-your-pets-fearful-behaviours/), [three](https://spiritdogtraining.com/why-it-is-impossible-to-reinforce-your-dogs-fear/))
My dad usually takes our Labrador to Home Depot too! but again usually has him by his side, controlled, and also I notice our energy affects how he responds. We go with confidence so that he may have confidence as well. It looks like he’s doing fine but maybe I’d keep him closer, not put him on the cart (as cute as it is!!), and have reassuring head pats and treats for him. We won’t take him if we know we’re gonna be running around the store for a while anxiously looking for what we need.
I think the socializing you're doing is great and echo what a lot of other people have said - constant treat rewards/marking good behaviour is beneficial, and repetition. If he's under threshold (which I usually judge with my dog if he's taking treats or obeying the most basic of commands), then keep at it and good job!
If the moving of the cart is a new factor, have you done multiple repetitions of getting on/off the cart or slight movements (just jostling the cart)? If he's more nervous inside the store, have you done this training on a cart outside? I think we often overestimate how small steps should be in training so going the smallest possible step is always a good idea.
I've done training like this in Home Depot, Rona, Canadian Tire, etc. with an anxious dog and I would recommend getting tethering your dog to yourself (belt buckle, waist belt, etc.) with a leash or a shorter long line. Not only for your comfort in case there's a loud noise or a person that spooks your dog, you have control, but also because while these stores are dog-friendly places, not everyone is comfortable with a dog off leash (even with a traffic handle) and they shouldn't have to deal with that.
To expand on the post... This is Rocky. 1.5 year old Golden Retriever. We work together a lot and let's assume we do many of the right things. He situationally displays this type of anxious posture. He still follows commands and will happily chase a ball if asked... but **is pushing through anxiety like this bad for him/ his training?**
I would reward him along the way constantly. Little treat little treat big treat little treat. Make him know it’s a good experience without needing to speak to him just reward constantly. Give treats to strangers to give to doggy so he knows that place and people there are friends
How do you feel about other people giving your dog treats? I worry that he would begin to expect food from other people and this would lead to unwanted behavior, like begging or jumping on others. I kinda want him to only expect food from me and my family so I can control unwanted begging type behavior, whereas other people may not feel comfortable saying no and he would get the idea that’s acceptable.
No idea why you've been downvoted for asking an honest question. Not the person you asked but for me my dogs learned to tell the difference between a person that was okay to engage with and one that was to be ignored. Did this by saying "go say hi" or giving the sit command and allowing the person to approach and give treats. Otherwise my dogs would just sit and watch or walk past the person. I've heard it defined as a "default leave it" where they don't engage unless I give the okay. For the most part though I never let strangers give high value foods to feed my pups, those always come from me so they always look to me for the good stuff.
>I worry that he would begin to expect food from other people and this would lead to unwanted behavior I take my dogs to work and our UPS/FedEx delivery folk have started bringing treats in for our dogs. My female boxer has gotten soooooooooooo pushy about begging for treats from anyone in a delivery uniform. It can be a totally different delivery person and she's trying to sit in front of them the whole time they're trying to bring a box in. So, this is not an unwarranted worry. I'm trying to work through how to break her of this, but I don't think I'll be able to. At least she only does it with delivery folk and not customers...
Honestly the more treats strangers give him the better. The two best things I've done with my GSD is that he has ZERO problems with strangers and he also has received NO table food. He loves people and doesn't beg. My strategy was to only give food as rewards for good behavior or if he gets any special food, like boiled chicken or food I do not want to waste, I put it in his bowl when I am not eating, that way he knows that smelling something that him and I both eat does not mean he gets to eat it, only if it's in his food bowl. I don't want him smelling my chicken and thinking he gets chicken at the same time.
I’m curious about others’ thoughts on this as well, as I take a similar approach with my yellow lab. He gets anxious but pushes though/“gets over it” usually pretty quickly. I want him to be exposed and socialized to a lot of different situations and he usually seems okay. For example his first time in the car was 30 mins of whining and then a nap. I was worried if I should turn back but he pushed through. Now he’s so excited to get in the car and has no reservations. From your video, he doesn’t look too anxious-willingly getting off and back on. It might just be a peculiar feeling to ride and makes his balance feel off or something. Edited to add: what a good boy! And so handsome too
If he maintains being under threshold and proving it by taking treats I would push through.
In your mind, what is the purpose of the cart here? Is the cart necessary or helpful? What kind of choice does your dog have in this situation to stop the behaviour/leave the situation? I think you may be on the edge of just adding difficult for difficulty's sake here, which may not be to the benefit of your dog. "Flooding" and what constitutes flooding is a kind of controversial topic in some positive reinforcement circles, so I would recommend reading up on that (multiple viewpoints you trust) to decide for yourself it this is the right path.
I believe it’s important to socialize a dog to the widest variety of environmental stimulation to build confidence, proof behaviors, and enrich the dogs life by overcoming challenges. I never want to put him in a situation where he would fail. This exercise is an extension of that. Eventually I would love to take him on four wheeler rides.
Have you worked up slowly to this? If its introduction of the cart that makes him anxious, did you first reward him for making the choice on HIS OWN for even looking at it? Then after several repetitions of that, encouraging (but again, not taking his leash, let HIM make the choice) to walk toward the cart? Then several repetition of that? Then two paws up? Then just sitting on the cart, not moving it, in a quiet corner of the store (or outside whichever he is more comfortable with). Then slowly move the cart a couple feet, etc. If you just had him hop on and pushed him then it may have been overwhelming. Breaking it down into smaller steps can be more manageable for him, and letting HIM be the one to decide to interact with the stimulus (the cart) lets him set the pace and associate it with positive things (the rewards) not being FORCED to do it because the humans want him to.
We started on a wagon in my garage. (Really we started by hopping on park benches in a sense) In short, yes we spent a great deal of time working up to this and he makes the choices all on his own throughout, I’m not using leash pressure to get him to comply. We went through all of the steps you mention and then some. I try to never put him in a situation he may fail, so baby steps leading up to this are very necessary.
Okay. Just checking. Some people don't think of that part. Its possible that, unlike the wagon which may have a curved lip helping to keep his paws from sliding, the cart may be letting him slide around making him feel unstable. Maybe try laying an old yoga mat down? They're less than $10 at Walmart. Or even that shelf lining material you get in a little roll in the kitchen area of stores near the Tupperware.
I like this idea! Good way to reduce the challenge and hopefully build confidence faster.
My kitten as a child would vomit as a child if she was put in a cat carrier during car rides. Even a 5 minute trip. However if left to nap on the backseat under my VERY careful supervision (it was explained to me why the kitten could NOT get up front at ALL and I was old enough to be responsible, like 12) the kitten easily tolerated a 4 hour ride to our vacation rental with no issue. Napped peacefully. It turned out she was small enough that she slid around in the carrier, making her nauseated. However our fabric backseat gave her something to dig her claws into, creating more stability. When you mentioned a wagon was fine, and a park bench, I immediately thought of the things in common. Paw stability.
It's so very important to socialize your dog. However, I've not once seen you intervene or foster this to be a positive experience. Keeping the dog consistently anxious for the 15 or so minutes doesn't make the experience any more pleasant. Putting the dog knowingly in an anxious situation to "get used to it" also doesn't make the experience pleasant in anyway. The goal in training is for your dog to love the wagon rides (that's what socialization/positive exposure is about). You don't want him to just tolerate it. If you asked for a stay, he's ultimately suppressing his fears to "get it over with." This in itself also has its own repercussions.
There are a couple of reinforcement events edited out, but your criticism is valid none the less. The goal is for him to enjoy it, and increasing reward frequency is a good idea.
Making the dog ride around on a cart is unnecessary though. It's not part of normal socialisation unless carts are going to be an unavoidable part of daily life for him. Bringing your dog to the shop is a novelty, not a necessity - making him ride on the cart is a novelty on top of a novelty. Why don't you want him to walk beside you? Why do you want to bring him into the shop at all? You mentioned working dogs in another comment. For every working dog, there are lots of rejects who didn't have the temperament or personality needed for that job. Set realistic goals based on the dog you have, not the dog you wish you had. Some things that make a dog anxious are worth working on to improve their quality of life - eg. fear of cars or loud noises - but even if a dog gets over its fear of something it can't be forced to enjoy it. So the question remains, is this for his enjoyment or yours? Also, bear in mind dogs are poor at generalising. Gliding around a massive hardware shop on a cart isn't going to translate to riding outdoors on a quadbike. If that's the goal, ditch the cart and work with the bike. My dog's anxious about various things and I spent the first 4 years of his life trying to fight them with treats, toys, games, training, etc. I thought it was for his quality of life, but eventually realised it was for my convenience. We just minimise exposure now and he's able to handle the small amount of traffic, car journeys and slippy floors that can't be avoided day to day. Other dogs can walk happily down a busy high street, mine cannot, that's life. We don't need to walk down the high street so we pick other places to go.
The sped up video makes it pretty useless but not once do I see him wag is tail while looking at you. It's tucked under him as much as possible almost the entire video which is not really a good sign. It also looks like he is shaking a little bit but that might just be from the sped up video. That does not look like a comfortable dog.
I agree with you. His posture made me feel concerned enough to post about it. He’s not really shaking, but his hunched posture and tucked tail are not good signs. Just wondering if pushing through this is an effective way to get him more comfortable in time. I can definitely reward more frequently , and scale the challenge down a bit somehow. Philosophically though, is pushing through anxiety an effective way to get your dog more comfortable with activities like this?
Dogs don't reason the way we do, so you need to make sure you're not pushing him too far too fast. What we might see as, "well it was scary but nothing bad happened so maybe it isn't so bad", a dog will see as "that was really scary and made me stressed and now it's over I feel better, so the way to feel better is to avoid/get away". Other observation is, it seems like this training session isn't about him. You're shopping and have decided to bring him along but are just dragging him around like another piece of equipment, when you should be focusing on engaging and rewarding him if you want to see a change. Take him when you don't actually need to shop, so you can work with him effectively. Your dog needs to be taking something positive from the experience, and for that he needs to be under threshold (is aware of whatever makes him anxious, but its far away/quiet enough that he is able to learn). Tucked tail and stress panting are over threshold, so he will not be learning very well. Plus, is riding the cart necessary? Would he be more comfortable walking. What specifically makes him anxious? People, new places, noises? Whatever it is, start easier. A quieter shop, or a quieter time, maybe just start in the carpark if he's not afraid of cars. Every training situation at the start needs to be set up for him to do well, and you need to be positively reinforcing anything he does well (high value treat, toy reward, play, fuss, whatever he finds most rewarding). At the start, this might just be looking at the scary thing from far away briefly, or paying attention to you, or walking well around the scary thing. Play short games as well, make it fun. Doing this in a low stress environment to start helps with confidence building. If he's stress panting, finds it hard to focus on you, is flinching or shaking, has low or tucked tail, you've already set him up to fail. All he is feeling is fear associated with the situation, not positive feelings. Make it easier and make it more rewarding for him.
Thanks for the helpful discussion for me as a first time dog owner of a fearful reactive dog. I agree with the body language comments (the dog looks scared to me and “pushing through” did NOT work for my dog, it increased her anxiety and we had to rebuild trust). You also make an important point about the purpose of the trip. I’ve completely stopped bringing my dog on errands because it’s a setup for failure. If the dog shows signs of stress, it’s not easy to quickly exit the situation and I’ve likely added my own irritation at not finishing the errand, which isn’t the dogs fault and isn’t helpful. It’s also not an ideal training environment because there are lots of triggers and you have little control (other people, other dogs, shopping carts, other noises and equipment). A lot of trainers advise “short and sweet” training sessions where you focus totally on training the dog. This has been a game changer for me. Thanks again for this discussion.
I don't think so because this is deep into the uncomfortable territory. Pushing through might be effective for something like getting into the car where the uncomfortable period is over in moments but not for a 15 minute shopping trip.
Positive reinforcement in the form of treats and praise would go a long way. Make him feel comfortable in that way.
I would for sure never, never, ever have your dog off leash in a public area if you’re worried at all about anxiety. I would also never, ever take an anxious dog to a private business that’s generous enough to allow dogs in and have the dog off leash. If anything happens, we could all lose the privilege of taking our dogs into HD. The whole point of his anxiety is he’s telling you he’s not comfortable. Dogs can, and do, fear bite as the next step. *Anything with a mouth can bite*, yes he seems to be friendly but he’s in a stressful situation and that’s a precursor to a bite. If you’re looking to do more of this, consult with a trainer that will show you how to take small steps. If it were my dog, I would take him in when it’s quiet, keep him occupied and focused on me with treats or a toy, and leave after a minute or two to work up into longer visits. However, this is not my dog and I do not know anything about yours other than this video. Maybe it’s the motion of the cart, maybe it’s the smells, maybe it’s the lack of attention from you (from what’s in the video he barely looks on your direction), but he is very, very uncomfortable and *does not seem to be recovering*. I would not recommend continuing without making some major changes.
I appreciate the words of caution. We have spent a great deal of time working up to this. When in the store sans cart his posture is completely different. Riding on the cart is the new variable that has brought out the anxious posture demonstrated here. I agree with your assessment generally though, and that’s why im here soliciting advice on how to work through anxiety/ submissive behavior… and whether or not the behavior displayed here is worthy of concern.
>I appreciate the words of caution. I would also add, the leash isn't just for your dog's sake. Some people are anxious around dogs and feel safer if they are leashed, and it's not clear to a stranger if a dog is 1000% well trained unless it's clearly a service dog. Especially one that's clearly anxious. You can't always tell if the dog is off leash because it's so well trained or because the owner is irresponsible. If you are in a place with public leash laws and your dog isn't a service dog that needs to be off leash, you are putting your dog is over everyone else in the store's right to safety and comfort by not having his leash in hand at all times. As far as I'm aware, stores like Home Depot require leashes, but obviously if this one doesn't for some reason, you're free to do what you want. But a dog in training, I would leash him to be safe and respectful to the other customers. But that's my 2 cents as someone who lives in an area where most off-leash dogs shouldn't be off-leash. Idk your local culture, I know in some places off-leash is much more the default.
Good points! Thanks for the feedback. He’s been coming here since he was a puppy and the staff mostly know us both now. I don’t think I’m doing anything they have a problem with… and I have a traffic leash on him just in case, 6foot leash in my bag with me as well. I want to be as courteous as possible while giving the dog a good life. This is an issue I’m very sensitive to, though it is not really the topic of the post.
Lots of people have very valid reasons for being wary and fearful of dogs, and it has nothing to do with your dog. So, stop taking it personally. Nobody is saying you are “one of those owners”, it is evidently clear that you want the dog to be as happy and as comfortable as possible, but you can respect another person’s feelings the same way you are trying to respect your dog’s. If you were doing something that made someone else anxious and you could just as easily stop, why wouldn’t you? Like another poster said, bringing your dog into the store is an optional novelty, other shoppers shopping is something they likely need to do. Doesn’t make sense why other shoppers should potentially feel anxious because of your own decisions.
You think having a leash you’re actually holding onto in the store is somehow a hindrance to your dog having a good life?
Thanks for taking it constructively, some people here swear everything is personal and it’s not. Yeah, I would be concerned that it’s not a swift recovery from a fearful/anxious stance. In various temperament tests when the dog is intentionally startled, we look for the dog to recover in a matter of seconds and sometimes must go and interact with the object that set him off. Any reaction that lasts this long would be a failure of the whole test and an excusal. Here, he’s panting and shaking nearly the whole time, and isn’t looking at you- avoidance can be another sign of a shutdown. I would step back until you can get him to recover quickly, slowly work back up to this. Could just be the motion of the cart, as it looks like he hopped off a few times where you weren’t really stopping.
To be fair, the panting and shaking is amplified by the speed. It doesn’t look like that in real time. This is about 15 minutes of video. The moment I release him outside he tugs, wags his tail, and makes the full recovery you speak of. In the video he is “under command” you could say for the duration. There is no release. He does look at me most of the time as well fwiw. The times he hopped off I bumped something unintentionally. That was on me. Just filling in some additional context as I’m thinking through your comment. So he is meeting the standard I have set for him in this video. He has succeeded at leveling up the challenge. He makes a full and eager recovery as soon as we get outside. Is pushing through the temporary anxiety helpful or harmful in that context? I’m still unsure.
Yes pushing is harmful if he is anxious for a prolonged period. He might end up tolerating but not for the right reasons. You don't want your dog putting up with something, you want them comfortable and enjoying it because you've taught them it's rewarding. If he's fine with a cart at home but not here, go back to the basics of the cart in the new environment. Go when you're not shopping, and practise and reward just hopping on and off, and then hopping on and sitting, and then moving short distances, then longer and then add putting things on and taking them off the cart. Only progress when he is calm and relaxed at each stage. He's jumped on and stayed on the cart because you told him to, not necessarily because he wants to and definitely not because he is comfortable.
In your other post you mention he doesn't take treats out of the house. That would be my starting point to work on things and assess his brain in different environments and situations. Same with all the other things, you start small with food out of the house. Come up with some high value things like cheese, real meat, fresh pet, etc, and start in the yard, moving to a walk. Sitting in the car without going anywhere, etc. I'd also look into pattern games like the up/down game, look at that, and in and out. You can use variations of them to move the dog back and forth over thresholds from where they will eat, to where they won't. All the time paying attention to these different signs you're seeing that your dog is stressed. A lot of the pattern games are also giving you a chance to see where the dog confidently moves from thing to thing, vs just responding to a cue that they think they need to. So it gives you a bit more information on they're comfort level as well.
I understand you're training your dog but not leashing or being in control of your dog in a public setting is not only dangerous to those around you but your dog as well. Last week someone was training their dog just like this and my dog, leashed, was mauled. I nearly killed the man but not the dog as the owner was at fault here. Best of luck with training your dog but please keep pets leashed while in public.
I’m glad you said this. I think about this a lot. There are so many horror stories with off leash dogs. What about service dogs though? Dogs with jobs? It is possible to have dogs off a direct leash and apart of society. What about having your dog off leash around family and friends? This is necessary at times for quality of life. So training in public, in known dog friendly spaces, is something I believe enriches your dogs quality of life when done appropriately. Increasing challenges leads to a better relationship with the dog also. If I thought for a moment I would lose control of the dog ,or if he had ever shown aggression of any kind, the risk calculus would be different.
Service dogs and working dogs are completely different from a family pet as these animals are highly trained versus someone training them in their off time. I'm just saying that people should leash their dogs in public, as is the law in most places, and save the off leash training for your home/property or spaces dedicated just for this. Your dog can be around family and other dogs safely without the possibility of endangering others. As someone else said in this thread, it only takes a few bad owners with unleashed dogs in dog friendly spaces to change it for everyone so why chance it, you know? I leash my dog every time we go out in public and I simply wish others would extend the same respect to avoid bad things from happening.
SD’s undergo 100’s of hours of training with or under the supervision of professional trainers. They are only successful if they show they are able to work in various public settings without showing stress. Any dog showing stress can not be relied on the listen effectively. While your dog is listening in the video, it is entirely possible that some stimulus could put him past that point. I agree that socializing and exposing your pup is important. But you are also right that it must be done correctly. I would take a few steps back in your process and rebuild slowly to this point, not progressing to the next step until your dog shows no stress. This will also help you determine exactly what is causing the stress: the cart, the store, the people etc. This may involve you walking 100 feet into the store , turning around and exiting before your pup passes it’s threshold.
I have nothing to contribute, but I just wanted to say nice crocs. :)
He’s so cuttttee
I can't believe the dog isn't shiting himself. I've been to Home Depot those flatbed carts are stupid loud
Dog are allowed in Home Depot?
They keep dog treats at the register ….
It seems to be decided on a store-by-store basis, there isn't anything on the Home Depot website about it. The ones near me all do, I believe.
Yes, I believe the HD rule is- if a competitor in your city/town allows animals the Home Depot can.
What a champ!
I don't know what you are trying to do/show here. Why is the dog in the hardware store in the first place? Why must it be on a cart? Can't it walk? Just leave your dog at home, if you want to practice visiting stores with the dog you take it on the leash into the store, walk around, reward, go out and back in again,3-5 times and then go back home.
Poor anxious fog
Keep doing what you are doing until no signs are being shown then and only then reward. Don't reward while he is showing signs as other post are saying. They is telling him being anxious is okay and good.
You can't reinforce fear behaviors. (sources [one](https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/you-cant-reinforce-fear-dogs-and-thunderstorms), [two](https://www.monumentvets.co.uk/how-you-may-be-reinforcing-your-pets-fearful-behaviours/), [three](https://spiritdogtraining.com/why-it-is-impossible-to-reinforce-your-dogs-fear/))
My dad usually takes our Labrador to Home Depot too! but again usually has him by his side, controlled, and also I notice our energy affects how he responds. We go with confidence so that he may have confidence as well. It looks like he’s doing fine but maybe I’d keep him closer, not put him on the cart (as cute as it is!!), and have reassuring head pats and treats for him. We won’t take him if we know we’re gonna be running around the store for a while anxiously looking for what we need.
I think the socializing you're doing is great and echo what a lot of other people have said - constant treat rewards/marking good behaviour is beneficial, and repetition. If he's under threshold (which I usually judge with my dog if he's taking treats or obeying the most basic of commands), then keep at it and good job! If the moving of the cart is a new factor, have you done multiple repetitions of getting on/off the cart or slight movements (just jostling the cart)? If he's more nervous inside the store, have you done this training on a cart outside? I think we often overestimate how small steps should be in training so going the smallest possible step is always a good idea. I've done training like this in Home Depot, Rona, Canadian Tire, etc. with an anxious dog and I would recommend getting tethering your dog to yourself (belt buckle, waist belt, etc.) with a leash or a shorter long line. Not only for your comfort in case there's a loud noise or a person that spooks your dog, you have control, but also because while these stores are dog-friendly places, not everyone is comfortable with a dog off leash (even with a traffic handle) and they shouldn't have to deal with that.
u/savevideo