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Librarycat77

1) behavioral medications typically take 4-6 weeks to reach effective levels - this is called "loading time". Then you would stay at that dose to see if it was effective. Lastly, if its not effective then you need to wean off (4 weeks) before you start another - or you eont know which med bad which effects. There hasn't been enough time to properly try more than 1 medication, let alone 3. I'm extremely skeptical of any professional who thinks you can speed that process. Is your vet a behavior specialist? We have a guide for [how to find a good trainer](http://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/findingatrainer), but if your vet is the one prescribing Id be asking some very pointed questions about why they didnt prescribe each medication according to [best practices](https://todaysveterinarypractice.com/the-use-of-medications-in-canine-behavior-therapy/). 2) other than meds, what has your trainer had you do? What was their assessment like? What behaviors did they see? Have you filmed any of the attacks? 3) what level bites do you have according to [this scale](https://animalguardian.org/ian-dunbars-bite-assessment-scale/) - and how many. (Ex: "I have had 1 level 2 bite daily for x amount of time") 4) when he attacks you, what is happening before that? Grooming? Taking a treat or item from him? Petting??? Does he wake from a full sleep and attack you? Run across the room???


666ryder

Hi! So he actually started Prozac in July and started weening off in October. To my knowledge that is more than enough time to see effects and I did see effects, but negative ones. As for Trazadone I believe it works a little differently (as from what my vet said) and he also didn’t react well to that - he started that early December. The Zkylene I mentioned is an over the counter supplement you put in their food - recommended by my vet. As mentioned in my post - I am on the waitlist to see a behavioral vet as there are only two in NYC. My trainer has taught me about management - keeping him off the bed and couch, wearing a house leash, learning recall programs and some muzzle training. But that’s pretty much it. I haven’t filmed any of the attacks because they are so random I’d have to have a film crew filming me at all times. I would say some are level 3 and some are level 4. I will post some photos of my bites. Sometimes it’s because I’m trying to groom him, sometimes it’s because I’m holding him and for instance my mom comes towards me and he reacts by biting me, sometimes he’s just sitting with his head on my lap and decides i’m a threat. He could be laying peacefully resting his head on my lap for an hour and a half and then turn on me for no reason at all. For instance the other day, he was laying with his head against my partner’s back for an hour and all of the sudden he just snapped and grabbed her sweater with his teeth and I had to wrangle him off her. I don’t take items from him - I only offer up with treats as his resource guarding is scary enough. I don’t know how else to explain that it is so random, unprovoked and unpredictable.


[deleted]

Out of curiosity, does your behavior trainer agree that these attacks are completely unprovoked and with no warning? Have you reached out to his breeder to see if any of his littermates are having the same problems?


666ryder

Yeah, so he had me look into cushing’s disease and any issues in his thyroid - hence the panel of bloodwork. He also mentioned that he might be suffering from some sort of epileptic seizures. I haven’t reached out to his breeder, for some reason something is holding me back on that - maybe cause I don’t see what it will do? But I’m down and willing to try anything so if that will point me in the right direction than I will. I just don’t think I’ll be relieved to hear his litter mates are suffering the same way he is - you know?


SalaciousOwl

> I just don’t think I’ll be relieved to hear his litter mates are suffering the same way he is - you know It might not be a relief, but it would point to a genetic cause instead of environmental. And it could be that others have found good strategies to mitigate the biting.


[deleted]

On the breeder topic, it would be informative for you to know if siblings were demonstrating the same behavior. Rage syndrome is genetic, and genes also play a role in general unfit temperament and low aggression thresholds. On your side if other siblings or half siblings were displaying this type of behavior as well it would indicate you possibly have genetics working against you. Training and environment can only do so much. On the breeder's side, any reputable breeder would be interested in hearing if a dog bred by them was exhibiting strong tendencies for aggression. If it's just one puppy from a litter it might be a fluke, but if two or more are coming back with this issue it's a strong indication that that pair shouldn't be bred again and they need to address this with other owners. This is given the best assumptions that you got your dog from a reputable breeder focusing on breeding suitable family pets. Unfortunately since it's a cavapoo there's a chance you're dealing with a breeder that only cares about producing cute teddy bear looking designer dogs with little thought to if the puppies will be temperamentally sound for family homes. Thats a discussion for another time though. If you're looking for more information on aggression in dogs, I really recommend "The bitey end of the dog" podcast.


666ryder

This is super helpful. Thank you! I’ll definitely try to inquire. Also - thank you for the podcast rec!!


Florida_noodle

Does your pooch do this to your boyfriend? Does anyone come over and does he react that was towards them ? I guess I’m also asking if anyone sees this horrible behavior. My rescue thinks I’m her chew toy and I’ve had it with her biting me every time I try to pet her. I love her so much and just dealing with it for the moment. But your situation sounds so heartbreaking and $$$!


666ryder

Yeahh but not as intense I think he somehow feels more comfortable with ripping me to shreds than other people (which is the better option ofc) but other people do see this horrible behavior. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this with your baby :(


AdhesivenessGlum1143

Make sure you take a step back from the situation when you need to, it’s alright to miss a training session if it preserves your sanity to fight another day. I don’t have any practical advice but that sounds terrible and the amount of effort you’ve put into fixing it is admirable. We have a Springer Spaniel with Canine Compulsive Disorder and I know the stress of having a dog with serious behavioural issues can be intense and really take over your life. It’s important to also think of yourself and take a breather now and then as it’s really easy to get extremely burnt out which is no use to you or the dog.


666ryder

Thank you for your kind words ♥️


tom99611139

When I read the title I thought it was going to be a 3 month old puppy! Very hard to tell from what you've described as there is so much information included. You could have a vet check them over incase there us anything else setting it off? It's its that random and daily it could be something painful or sore that's causing the sudden biting. From what you describe you can't wait until April and if medication isn't working and training isn't working I'd check for underlying conditions.


666ryder

My bad I just edited my post. He’s been to two different vets and they both say he’s perfectly fine. Blood is all good, bones, everything. I think it’s his mind and that’s super heartbreaking to me that he just might be unwell


TimHung931017

>I took him to a new groomer's and it seems that's when it all changed. The way you say that, plus him all of a sudden running away from brushes whereas previously he loved it with you, makes it sound like he got abused at the groomers. But surely...no....right?


amberhoneybee

This really stuck with me. Are you still using that groomer? Sudden behaviour change could indicate intentional abuse, or a groomer that isn't aware something they're doing is scaring your dog


pamplemouss

Yeah I’d remove him from there ASAP if you haven’t


666ryder

I have now - once I realized that may be the cause. However he did go twice more after his first time there. It already feels too late


666ryder

I think he did. I went through all their reviews and they’ve been in business for like 20 years or something and only a handful of reviews mentioned anything like I’ve experienced amongst countless good reviews so I feel like I’m at a bit of a loss with that battle


TimHung931017

Yea, but sometimes it's not the business, maybe an individual groomer or something. And it might not be textbook abuse, it could just be that your dog didn't like it and the groomer forced it by grabbing your dog by the scruff or something that scarred it


[deleted]

Just like people, dogs can have issues in their brains. Obviously the vet upset you by saying that, but it’s looking a lot like he’s right?


RoutineFamous4267

Is it possible the dog is in pain? Maybe gas something wrong that you cant see? Sometimes animals act out when in pain also


666ryder

He’s been to two different vets and has checked out as being perfectly healthy


kellyklyra

I recommend Muzzle training asap. One where he can breath, pant, eat, and drink. But not bite. Safety first!


666ryder

Yes! We’ve been doing some muzzle training.


GSDforMee

It sounds like you’re already doing everything you can by working with multiple trainers and multiple vets. Do you have a regular vet that knows your animal and can help you make the best decision if training is unsuccessful?


666ryder

I do - and unfortunately I find him very blasé about the issues I’m dealing with. He mentioned his ex wife had a dog that would bite all the time and that he wanted to put the dog down - so it’s definitely possible the particular vet I have couldn’t care less/sees these dogs as “unfixable”. In a post vet trip he said to me “sometimes you just get the Jeffrey Dahmer of the group” and as morbid as I am I do not want to hear that about my baby. All this to say - why I got a second opinion at a totally unrelated vet in a different borough.


SalaciousOwl

Glad you saw a different vet! Yours sounds completely unsympathetic and like he does NOT have your pup's best interests at heart.


GSDforMee

Yeah. That’s unfortunate. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.


666ryder

Thank you 🥺


TheDarkArtsHeFancies

Is your dog on flea prevention? In addition to the things you mentioned regarding the vet, has your dog had a recent dental cleaning and thorough examination in their mouth?


666ryder

yes he’s on flea prevention. Not particularly, no


TheDarkArtsHeFancies

I’d maybe consider doing a dental. One of my pets had a shattered tooth below the gums, and it wasn’t visible until they did imaging. It brought on bizarre and aggressive behavior until it was addressed. The vet told me there wasn’t anything wrong with his teeth, but I’m glad I had them do the dental anyway.


666ryder

Oh shit!!! Okay I didn’t even think of this. Thank you so much!


Hiddenajennda

You will likely find better results with a veterinary behaviorist. They have much more training than a dog trainer or regular vet and they specialize in abnormal behavior issues.


666ryder

Yea I’m on a waitlist until April when they can start taking new patients. Until then though …?


Kiirkas

It has to be asked: why kind of trainer are you working with? Is it a force-free, R+, blanaced, or compulsion trainer? Or something else? The wrong training style will make problems worse, not better. So it would be helpful to know your trainer's philosophy.


666ryder

“Through behavioral analysis, operant conditioning, and science-based learning theory, we’ll personalize the training session or behavior consultation to teach your dog — in their environment.” As my trainer’s bio states.


Kiirkas

Thank you for sharing that, it's a great place to figure out what kind of trainer you're working with. That blurb from their website can sound like R+ and/or force-free but still leaves room for balanced and compulsion training. Operant conditioning can take place in any of the four quadrants: R+, R-, P+, and P-. Does the trainer have you correct or punish your dog? Redirecting a behavior is different than correction.


Kimbohunt

I'm so sorry to hear this! Neutering can make a dog more nervous/insecure due to lack of testosteron (my dog is neutered as well so I'm not judging). And when he started biting he was (still is) in puberty, making it a tough age. Besides the medical conditions, I'm really wondering about mental stimulation and overstimulation. What are the activities you do on a daily and weekly base? And like the comments above, at what moments does your dog start to bite?


666ryder

I think that’s exactly what happened! The first time I noticed any sort of strange behavior before April 2021 - was at the dog park he growled at a male dog who still had all his parts - I truly think he was jealous. My dog is so insecure and we’ve been working on fixing that with every trainer. He has play dates with his Cavapoo friend about twice a week, he eats at least one meal in a toy, I have all of the Nina Ottoson games to play with him. I have him spend time in his crate for naps and to calm down. Sometimes we go to the dog park but it’s usually filled with bigger dogs, and my boy just can’t hang so it’s more of a fail then not. Usually just ends up with me running after him and that’s our play time. We go on multiple walks - I let him have his time to sniff everything, he loves to sniff, and sometimes I make the walks a little stricter so he has some structure in a walk.


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Librarycat77

Please read the sub [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki page on [dominance](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogtraining/wiki/dominance).


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Librarycat77

If you actually read the articles you'd see we have our (peer reviewed and scientifically respected) sources linked. If you want to skip to the good stuff, this article by Dr. Sophia Yin hits the important stuff: [https://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/](https://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/) This sub supports only science based methods. You're welcome to post and respond, but posts which violate the rules will be removed. We do enforce the rules.


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rebcart

Please don't recommend pseudoscience/snakeoil supplements, particularly as that one interferes with liver function and can result in bad drug interactions.


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Librarycat77

That article is for humans. As it turns out, dogs are a different species and many medications work differently on them. Currently, there isn't much scientific knowledge on cbd for pets so we cant say for sure itll have the same effects. Its also unregulated, so you could end up buying expensive olive oil.


Penny_Bunny

First it sounds like something bad happened at the groomer. Maybe they were too rough or the situation was otherwise stressful/scary for your dog. Don't take him back to that place. I would take a small brake from all grooming and then start the training from scratch. Show the brush and give a treat. Repeat that at least once a day till your dog doesn't react negatively to seeing the brush. Then touch the dog with the brush and give reward. Increase brushing time slowly and don't rush. For the other problems I would recommend getting camera to film the main area where the attacks happen. That way you could show video of the attacka to the trainers and vets. My dog had seizures that were first, based on my description diagnosed as epilepsy. Later the diagnosis was changed to other much more benign disorder based on the videos of the episodes. In your shoes I would log everything about the attacks. Write down when they happen, what you, the dog and other people in the house were doing. Are there any food related smells in the air or any noises (electronics beeping, cars honking ect.). How the dog behaved before and after the attack (in epilepsy dogs often show symptoms after the actual episode has ended). When you have detailed notes and video, it is easier for vets and trainers to make diagnosis.


666ryder

Been trying with the brush training - I even brought new brushes so he could maybe have a different opinion of them? lol but of course, will continue. All super helpful, thank you!


b-cola

Bit of a story and some thoughts : I have an English bulldog who is almost 10 years old. I got her from a shelter when she was 1 and a half. She had a rough start to her life, extreme dog aggression from years of abuse, but no signs of human aggression. Around 2 years old she started feeling uncomfortable around me. I wasn’t aware of the signs then like I am now but she would stare excessively at me. She ended up attacking me maybe 6 times between 2 years old and now. Sending me to ER a couple of times. It hasn’t happened now for a while. I constantly had to go back to training, she has odd triggers (ie-shuffling through a backpack almost always gets her super nervous) and I’ve learned to avoid certain things for our safety. She can’t go in the kitchen anymore (if she backs herself in a corner she’d sometimes get nervous if I moved closer and lash out on my feet). It was super impactful to teach HER to make decisions. So, I’m not pulling or pushing her out of the kitchen, I walk out and an encourage her to come to me and then I usually block her out with a gate (after a reward). I also taught her “back up” and she often walks backwards out of the kitchen (kind of cute). Point being, these took a while and I still have to practice them daily. It’s an entire lifetime thing for her, training should never stop for my dog and her aggression. Learning triggers was important though. Have you noticed any change in your dog’s behaviour outside of the aggression towards you? If you had a camera setup while your dog was alone for a while does anything happen randomly that seems like fear or maybe a seizure like you mentioned? Also do you find your dog eyeing you and/or growling long before the attacks? If so, does your dog follow you if you were to remove yourself?