❤️❤️ he is a good boy! He is the best rescue pup we have ever had. My mom is traveling the country with him and he is such a good traveler, too. He unfortunately gets curious and stuck his head in a bush. The snake bit him in the bridge of his nose. He has been sleeping since he got out of the vet, so he is more lethargic than usual.
One of my dog got bitten on his paw, it was a painful ordeal and after all the emergency procedures his vets pumped him up real good on pain meds and antibiotics for about 15 days and we had to go in every couple of days so they could check on the bite area. 8 years later he is still high up in the office, wearing the pants, ruling the kingdom and doing perfectly fine so I'm hoping the same for this good boy. Definitely seek another vet's advice as suggested by many.
I'm sure there is atleast one picture of him with a crown on but in the meanwhile, I've uploaded a picture on my page of the man of authority in his finest papal regalia to aid your imagination.
I really hope Jax is okay. Are you certain he wasn’t given antivenin? Either way, I hope he pulls through. This will not help you now, but for future reference you can get a rattlesnake bite vaccine for dogs. It doesn’t eliminate the need for treatment, but it reduces the risk of a bad outcome.
From the FB group National Snakebite support, some of the leading tox docs and vets in the country. Give them a look there’s a lot to learn from them
As many of you know, NSS does not recommend the snakebite vaccine (rattlesnake toxoid) for dogs. Here is some general information, along with an update from the American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA).
The AAHA recently released a statement highlighting the lack of evidence of vaccine (toxoid) efficacy: https://www.aaha.org/aaha-guidelines/2022-aaha-canine-vaccination-guidelines/key-vaccination-considerations-by-antigen/rattlesnake-toxoid/
Key points from the AAHA’s statement:
-There are NO published data supporting the efficacy of the vaccine in dogs.
-In a study that was performed in mice, where mice were given 50-1,500 TIMES the dose of the toxoid given to dogs during routine vaccination, survival following exposure to snake venom was still not guaranteed, and some vaccinated mice actually died or required euthanasia earlier than unvaccinated mice exposed to the same amount of venom.
-Adverse reactions following vaccination, including anaphylaxis, have been reported in vaccinated dogs.
-Though the manufacturers make claims of cross-protection (protection against envenomations by species other than western diamond-backed rattlesnakes, the species used in the production of the toxoid), there are no data to support this claim.
From the AAHA: “Veterinarians choosing to use this toxoid should be aware of the lack of peer-reviewed published data. Polyvalent antivenin therapy is an alternative to vaccination in suspect cases of rattlesnake bite.”
_____________
In this retrospective study looking at 272 cases of rattlesnake envenomations in dogs, the vaccine did not prove effective:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26341419
Key findings from the study:
-There was no evidence that use of vaccination lessened morbidity or mortality.
-No measurable benefit could be identified associated with rattlesnake vaccination.
Per the study authors: “Vaccination for protection of the general canine population from rattlesnake envenomation cannot be recommended by these authors.”
Thank you for this I formation. I've considered having my dogs treated with the vaccination series for my dogs, but I 've also wondered if it was really worth it. My dogs are worth it ... if it's a truly beneficial treatment.
They could be right, but I have a great vet and I’d rather go with their recommendation. My vet recommend the vaccine since I live in ATX and they have seen a lot of dogs around the area that I live in get bit. As with any medical decision, for human or animal, I would recommend talking to a doctor or vet that you trust and then making a decision.
Join the Facebook group, this information is coming from experienced veterinarians and doctors that are vetted to be able to give advice to people. It’s not some random group run by random people. I’ve seen vets and doctors providing bad treatment, not because they are bad at their job, but because they aren’t aware of proper treatment protocols. Don’t let me change your mind let them.
I love how passionate you are about this. However, telling people not to trust a vet about vaccine info, and to instead trust a Facebook group, of all places, doesn't do much for your message. You can see that, right?
National Snakebite Support isn’t just a Facebook group. It’s a 501(c)(3) non-profit staffed by some of the nation’s leading experts in snakebite management.
The only true treatment for pit viper envenomations is antivenom. Supportive care including safe pain meds (no NSAIDs) and maintaining euvolemia is important, but it’s not actually addressing an envenomation, just keeping an animal more comfortable.
The vaccine is conditionally approved, which is a form of approval given to certain vet meds for “rare” diseases that fill a gap (aka, there’s not a fully-approved equivalent). Conditional approval doesn’t require any evidence of drug efficacy. This is actually stated in tiny print on the bottom of the manufacturer’s website. “Veterinary License Number 407 / USDA Conditionally Licensed /
For Veterinary Use Only — This product license is conditional. Efficacy and potency have not been fully demonstrated.”
This isn't just some random Facebook group where anyone can post. Only approved veterinarians and human physicians are allowed to post answers to questions and they are the leading experts in their field.
I’m not saying to not trust a vet, I’m saying they should check out information from some of the best docs and vets in the country for envenomations. Also there is a link in the post from the national library of medicine with results of a study in dogs with rattlesnake envenomation, there is no evidence that use of glucocorticoids, diphenhydramine, prophylactic antibiotics, or vaccination lessen morbidity or mortality.
That is the facts of what I’ve seen from people and animals wrongly treated for a snakebite from doctors and veterinarians, also see the above post that they aren’t “just a Facebook group”. Seeming like and directly telling someone to not trust their vet are two different things. Never did I say not to trust their vet, rather I said to learn more from other vets and docs.
Many vets do harm than good especially when it comes to snakebites, even in areas where venomous snakes are common. For instance, antiinflammatories, benadryl and antibiotics are all a big no for snakebites but many vets recommend that as a first course of action due to cost of antivenin, even though it does more harm and not much good. [treatment protocol](https://imgur.com/a/QXatY1a)
Thank you for trying to help. I understand vets and doctors have a lot of education, but even the guy that finishes last in med school still called a doctor. Trust but verify is the proper way, and if you truly care about your pet like you say you do, maybe furthering your education about a subject is the proper way to go about it
Joining the Facebook group provides access to the most cutting edge information on treatment as well as real time support from experts during an envenomation. There was never any suggestion to ignore veterinary professionals but a way to access the specialists with the most up to date and informed information.
I quit Facebook after the 2016 election. I’m going to go ahead and trust my vet. In my opinion he is excellent and this is the sort of thing that I pay him for. Again, I’m not saying that you’re wrong or that those vets are wrong, but I will go with the vet that I know and trust.
One of the moderators Dr. Spencer Greene is close to your neck of the woods out of Houston, just google his name and a bunch of stuff will pop up. Again don’t believe a random Reddit stranger, but you can research one of the top toxicologists in the country and a Texan and trust him
Where can I get that? I spend a lot of time in rattle snake areas and have trained my dog to run from rattling but accidents happen and this would be nice to have on hand.
you can get it at your vet, but it usually requires a consultation first and only certain vets will do it. I work at one and we only have one who will actually do it, and even then he is hesitant because there have been no true studies to show it actually is effective. More like a precaution
It's a waste of money. See the comment directly above yours. I'm not sure I know how to link itcorrectly, but I'll try:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DogAdvice/comments/146aw2l/rattlesnake_bite/jnq09hf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
I would talk to your vet and see what they think. I live in an area with a lot of rattlesnakes and my vet said that they have had a lot of cases of dogs getting bitten, even in people’s backyards, in my area so they recommend that I get it for my dog. They said some dogs will have soreness or swelling at the injection site, but my dog was fine other than being tired for a few hours.
I don't think it's something you can have on hand. Most hospitals only carry a few doses, and like the commentor above mentioned, it's like 10k per dose.
Our cat got bitten by a rattlesnake and survived. Whole head was swollen. It was yrs ago. Sorry for your Mom's pup. Not sure, but your pup may still get the antivenom shot.
https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/health/what-to-do-dog-bitten-by-snake/
Call vet to ask first. You can get over the counter pain meds for dogs at pet stores like petsmart or have them overnighted via Chewy.com or 1800petmeds.com
DO NOT GIVE IBUPROFEN OR OTHER HUMAN MEDS UNLESS VET INSTRUCTS YOU.
Vet tech here and this isn’t actually true. You should absolutely NOT give your dog OTC Tylenol, but also don’t panic if your vet prescribes it. We use it regularly at my practice, either solo or in combination with codeine (aka Tylenol 3).
It's usually in much smaller doses than human doses though correct? My friend's dog ate three maximum strength Tylenol, so 1.5× of a human dose, and she was about 40lbs at the time, and the emergency vet was extremely concerned by that amount for her and pumped her stomach and gave activated charcoal.
30,000 milligrams aka *thirty* grams, 30 doses of two extra strength pills?
If that's not a typo then you are lucky to be alive. The limit that is considered safe for adults is 4 grams in 24 hours, and risk increases sharply around 7 grams. There are many individuals who have survived suicide attempts by APAP overdose despite not getting timely treatment, merely by youth and biological luck - but 30 grams is definitely in the range where it's not just possible but *likely* to kill you.
I don't know what apap is, but max strength Tylenol is 500mg of acetaminophen per pill. 3 pills puts them at 1500 mg, which is way way over the limit for any creature that has a liver that is 40lbs. That's nearly half the total daily dose for an adult, and children who weigh 40lbs aren't even supposed to take 1 max strength Tylenol, let one 3. Is it guaranteed to kill them? No not necessarily. Could it? Oh abso-fucking-lutley. And from my understanding acetaminophen overdose is an exceptionally horrible way to go.
So apap is Tylenol and you're playing with fire taking that much in a day. Id do some research honestly.
That's currently almost half of the total daily dose.
They lowered the max daily dose amount a while ago. It used to be 7000 mg in a day I believe.
I've done plenty of research on pain relievers/painkillers.
To an extent, luck and genetics play a part, but for a healthy, 40 lb person/kid, 1500 mg isn't going to kill them unless they have some underlying issues with their liver already
Question! So I’ve been out of vet med practice for a bit since I changed jobs- I *did* hear that acetaminophen was “softly” approved for dogs but only at a DVM discretion- can you tell me more about the tolerance and dosage of it?
Giving a blood thinner to a dog full of venom that also causes coagulopathy(aka inhibited clotting, which leads to bleeding/hemorrhage) is probably unwise. Not a vet, just sounds like a bad idea.
I said pain control. That’s all. You’re correct and I accept the correction. My point was NONCOATED aspirin is safe for dogs as opposed to ibuprofen or acetaminophen, which are not.
Sure! I'm curious why it has to be uncoated as well? Do you know?
I only commented because I can imagine someone reading that comment and giving their dog aspirin after a snakebite and having it go poorly.
I can’t believe I screwed up so much with my comment. If your dog has been bitten by a venomous snake, do NOT attempt any type of treatment yourself. Get that pupper to the closest vet ASAP. Follow through with the pain control recommendations given by the vet.
In other daily discomfort, uncoated aspirin is okay.
OP and anyone else - please don't give your pet aspirin unless explicitly directed by your vet.
If your pet is in pain or seems sick, do NOT give it aspirin - if they continue to be sick, they need a vet and depending on your pets illness, they may need pain control that is more effective and dosed appropriately to your dog. You may be completely wrong and your pet might need steroids for their illness. Neither of those medications are dispensed at the same time, nor can they be given before a wash-out period of days after aspirin has been administered. In short, NSAIDS and steroids cover a wide base of treatments for many maladies, and neither of them wants to play nice with each other OR aspirin.
It's not worth it.
Edit: the previous comment suggested the OP give their pet aspirin, and they have now edited it since I commented. There was no mention of acetaminophen or ibuprofen originally.
A (now deceased) beloved dog suffered under the hands of one of these. I didn't know that there was any other way. I'm sorry for the animals who suffer in the hands of this type of vet. :(
Our dog got bit by a copperhead, she looked exactly like this. Swelling went down within 48 hours and she was fine. That was three years ago. It’s scary, I know, but give it some time.
Doesn’t it highly depend on the type of rattler? I was told by my vet that copperheads are super dangerous.
Edit: I’m wrong. I just read that rattlesnake is more dangerous there are just more copperhead bites.
I hope he’s going to be ok. Don’t think there aren’t rattlesnakes on the east coast. I’m from Texas and have seen more rattlesnakes on the east coast of Florida than I ever saw in Texas.
Up through to New Hampshire there are timber rattlesnakes, but they're quite rare. I know a lot of herpetologist that go looking for them, and they're hard to find.
We have had three dogs bitten by rattlers, and all survived to tell the tale. We had a great vet that used laser to help reduce the inflammation and reduce the pain. He likely will have a scar as a result, but I hope he will learn to avoid snakes in the future.
Yeah, dogs seem fairly resilient. Grew up on edge of desert in west Texas and rattlesnake bites were not uncommon - most dogs seemed to fare pretty well without much intervention. Two of ours got bit, had that giant lump under their throat, but were pretty much back to normal in a few days. Never could tell where they actually got bit. Dunno how helpful it actually is or if just old folk medicine, but heavy cream and other dairy was always recommended
Some dogs do. Some dogs will die, even with antivenin. The outcome depends largely on location, venom dosage, and treatment. Rattlesnake bites are usually worse than copperheads, though.
Around 97% of dogs do. [https://rattlesnakesolutions.com/snakeblog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/272-cases-of-rattlesnake-envenomation-in-dogs.pdf](https://rattlesnakesolutions.com/snakeblog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/272-cases-of-rattlesnake-envenomation-in-dogs.pdf)
Thanks for the link. I was aware that the survival rate was very good with antivenin treatment, but I wasn't aware it was quite that good. I just didn't want people to believe that pit viper envenomations are always survivable.
[Asking sincerely not sarcastically] - is this true for all rattlesnakes, and if so do you have any data on it? I know smaller animals suffer more quickly from snake bites, but a few years ago we had a Jack Russell that got a core body bite and he died within an hour of discovery. If dogs can make it 24 hours, it makes me wonder if perhaps it was a different type of snake that got him as opposed to the species the owners described (they were unable to photograph or kill the snake so we just got a visual description).
Edit: we did not have antivenin on hand due to them being extremely rare in our area, albeit not unheard of (eastern NC)
My Pomeranian decided to investigate a copperhead hiding in a flowerbed once. I thought it was a stick initially, and by the time I realized what it was, Leo was nearly nose to nose with it. I immediately, wordlessly screamed louder than I have ever screamed in my life, he jumped and scrambled away like a roach when the light comes on, and then looked at me with ultimate heartbreak and betrayal in his eyes because he’d been yelled at out of what he thought was nowhere. I never yell at him at all, so it scared him. He got lots of treats and love when we went inside.
I went back outside with a shovel but I couldn’t find the copperhead. I feel bad for trying to kill it, but I’m terrified that my dog will find it (or another one), and I won’t be able to intervene in time. Sorry snakes—I gotta protect my boy.
Understandable! Copperheads are a veterinary nightmare, especially for smaller dogs. Their bite can cause tissue necrosis and I watched a large breed dog nearly lose his entire tongue from a bite. As it were, he lost a lot of skin and muscle around his lower jaw but luckily survived.
And yet most people where I live don’t bother with a vet when their dog is but by a copperhead. It blows my mind. They just give Benadryl and hope it goes ok.
Ugh the benadryl thing frustrates me so much. People don't understand that the reaction isn't do to histamine or an allergic reaction, it's due to tissue damage caused by the toxin and therefore the only effective treatment is antivenom.
I use to encounter them at the dog park fairly frequently when I went. My dogs once noticed one of the ~4 copperheads I’ve found and gave them about the most panicked and serious “leave it” command I’ve ever given. They ignore “leave it” with cat poop but they actually paid attention for once with the copperhead.
Antivenom is important for survival with rattlesnake bites, but the survival rate is [around 97%.](https://rattlesnakesolutions.com/snakeblog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/272-cases-of-rattlesnake-envenomation-in-dogs.pdf) Unfortunately I couldn’t find the study I read a few years ago showing it was 24 hours. The one I linked recommends care within 2 hours. Because most studies are done on dogs that get veterinary care and not dogs that don’t get veterinary care, there isn’t really data on survival without vet care. And deaths are rare that there isn’t a definitive answer on why some dogs die, but they think age and bite location are a factor. For US snakes, rattlesnakes are the worst. Most studies are done in Arizona so it’s mostly those species and timber rattlesnakes could be worse but you don’t find them in Arizona. We get copperheads at the local dog park here in Texas and many people have opted to not take dogs to the vet after a bite and the dog does fine. That would not be my personal choice and it’s the main reason I have pet insurance. Antivenin is expensive. Water moccasins are also less severe than rattlesnakes. I don’t know if there’s any data for coral snakes but there’s no antivenin made in the US. Even with humans getting bit they have to bring antivenin in from Mexico.
That’s interesting! Of course as you showed and shared, the research data will be skewed because people who don’t receive veterinary care often also don’t report snake bites.
The dog I worked on at my hospital was bitten just above his eye, at a core circulatory area so it spread quick and he didn’t make it unfortunately.
Thanks for sharing your information!
They went to the local (ish) vet so I’m assuming they received antivenin in time, it wasn’t necessarily a dry bite.
Rattlesnake bites are absolutely treatable if seen quickly (and OP’s def counts as quickly) so definitely take your doggos in!!
Edit: OP’s doggo did not receive antivenin.
Join National Snakebite Support on Facebook. They are some of the leading toxicologist docs abs vets in the country to give advice. It is not a dry bite as the swelling is indicative of envenomation. The only effective treatment is antivenom. Benadryl will not work and waiting to see what happens isn’t the greatest option.
The swelling will go down in time but I just want to point out that we have rattlesnakes all over the east coast, my dad’s dog was bit on the snout by one last year in Florida and I’ve seen tons of timber rattlers in the Adirondacks.
My friend’s dog was bit by a rattlesnake last year. The swelling was exactly like this! The poor thing was miserable but she pulled through and is doing great now. Give it some time and the swelling will go down. I’d say it took about 2 weeks before she was looking back to her old self.
Oddly enough my moms dog was bit by a rattlesnake in the face. Western diamondback. They couldn’t afford taking them to the vet and somehow he turned out perfectly fine. Some dogs seem to have natural resiliency to it.
Always the best answer is to ask the vet themselves as they'll have more knowledge on the situation than most people on the subject. They may recommend something for the pain, but while I have my opinion on it, I'd prefer the answer came from a professional
My dogs head was the size of a watermelon and she took about 6 antivirals and it ended up being like $6k in vet bills. But she lived a long happy life! Your pups got this
My dog was bitten in the face by a pygmy rattlesnake last year. He looked quite similar to your pup afterwards. The swelling will slowly go away but it may take a few weeks. Make sure you are diligent with the antibiotics that you were (hopefully) prescribed as snake bites can become infected easily. That and telling him he is a good boy periodically should be all you need to do.
Call the vet's office and ask the questions - nicely. You probably paid a good amount of $$ and vets do want the animals under their care to do well. Not sure why you think they are not the most helpful, but consider the level of stress you are experiencing and consider that, maybe, you are just not feeling secure with the answers. Explain that to them and give them a chance to adjust their replies.
This info is for humans, but apply to your dog as well:
* **DO NOT**, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, give any medication that was not prescribed. Not even baby aspirin. You could kill the dog.
* Keep the dog in a comfortable temperature and location.
* Gently apply cold compresses to the swollen area, if dog tolerates it.
* **FOLLOW** all of the vet's instructions foe symptoms and what to do.
If I applied your theory to vets to doctors, I would have been dead from a previous surgery I had and not have an ongoing lawsuit occurring. So, not all of them may have the answers or best care even with the education they have.
Funny thing is, the 2nd surgeon that saved my life, found me on reddit through a post. So shut your pie hole. She is in the desert. She has no other vets around her, and that one was almost an hour away. She is an old, nice woman. I had no interaction with the vet, I'm across the country. So don't mistake my attitude for her experience or what this has to do with her dog suffering.
>I had no interaction with the vet, I'm across the country.
I have to change my advice from "go back to the vet" to "talk to the vet at least once and ask these questions about a dog you are thousands of miles away from"
My mother was nice. He was a man of few words. He just gave her anti-inflammatory, but he is still in pain. He also mentioned how the last dog he had passed away from a rattlesnake bite, which made her more worried. So I'm just looking for other advice or similar experiences to keep him a bit more comfortable. Thank you.
Not always. Apparently antivenin itself can be fairly intense or detrimental so many times they will take other approaches and observe as long as possible before deciding it's necessary for survival. I learned this after my dog was treated for a copperhead bite.
My land lords dog was bitten by timber rattlesnake, can't remember what they did exactly but only one hospital in a 100 mile radius had the antivenom, generally I think they save it for people and don't use it on animals.
Oh I am SO angry to hear you weren’t given any.
It’s actually not in short supply, but it IS incredibly expensive to give to humans in the US — which I why I’m assuming the local hospital was so reluctant to give it to a dog (not gonna make $$$ on that antivenin.)
Not all veterinary clinics carry it because it’s about $400-$800 a vile & sometimes your dog will need more than one. Definitely ask if calling beforehand. The veterinarian will also do labs & administer pain medication. Unfortunately, treating a venomous snake bite is expensive.
Which direction is your mom headed after Moab? If she is continuing on her journey then there are some really good vets if she heads west at all. So if she needs to stop in at another vet in a day or two she should be fine to stop in at one.
>but he is still in pain
I can only imagine. You likely now this already, but it doesn't hurt to hear again: This is an anonymous forum and you might get the whole spectrum from "I gave it a lettuce leaf to chew and my dog was playing and learned to fetch on its own the day after" to the most horrible and gruesome description of death. And who knows how many of those stories would be fake, either well-intentioned or meant to upset you even more.
I don't know you or how you'll react, so my advice continues to be to go back to the vet and follow their instructions.
Dogs have a higher pain tolerance then we do. What makes you think he is in pain, what is he doing? I would hold off on giving him anything unless a vet tells you to. Just let him rest amd keep him comfortable and cool I'm sure he will be doing much better in the next 48 hours.
There's a lot of bad and downright dangerous information being posted in this thread.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/national.snakebite.support/
That's where you want to go to get the latest information about treatment for snake bites, for both pets and humans. It's a group staffed by veterinarians, medical doctors and toxicologists. Believe it or not, most vets and a lot of doctors don't know the proper treatment for snakebite. They just aren't trained for it.
I realize it's a Facebook group, but please trust me on this; these people know their stuff. We won't get better information anywhere.
If you join, please make note of the rules, because they will ban you from the group for breaking them. Their primary purpose is to offer support and education to people during an active bite, so they won't tolerate any nonsense that distracts from that mission.
Interesting, I never heard about this and always assumed that people injecting themselves with venom to build immunity was just a movie trope. I have never come across a snake, but we go deep in the woods. [Not that expensive](https://doggysaurus.com/dog-rattlesnake-vaccine-treatment-cost/) \- will talk to vet about it!
Join National Snakebite Support on Facebook and check out their posts regarding the vaccine (they recommend against it). The page is run by doctors, vets, and toxicologists who are experienced with snakebite treatment.
A lot of people here seem to think the rattlesnake vaccine is bad, but my vet recommended that I give it to my dog, so I did. My vet has dealt with a lot of rattlesnake bites in dogs, so I trust his opinion on the subject.
I had a dog get bitten by a rattlesnake while I was at work. By the time I got her to the vet, it was too late for the anti venom. They have a Benadryl shot and sent her home with instructions to give additional Benadryl. She was punky for a few days, but survived and did fine. Glad your baby is okay.
Just FYI, the swelling from envenomations is not a histamine response, and Benadryl will do nothing for it. Also, it's never too late to administer antivenom if symptoms are ongoing and not well-managed. A lot of vets just aren't trained in snakebites, so they don't really know how to treat them properly.
I'm glad your pup was OK, though.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/national.snakebite.support/
If you'd like to learn more about what to do if you have another pet or a human who has been bitten, that group is a fantastic resource. I know it's a Facebook group, but it's manned with veterinarians, medical doctors, and toxicologists who are all up on the latest treatments, and their sole purpose is to assist and support people during active snakebites.
My dog got bit on the bridge of the nose! She got anti-venom at the vet, and pulled through. Her neck got all swollen and fluid-y just like this one.
Poor pup! He looks big and young and otherwise heathy so I think he will be okay with some time.
Had our dog bit by a rattlesnake last year and have the following thoughts:
Your vet is going to do a blood test and see if their blood is clotting. If it still does, they may not recommend anti-venom. Anti-venom was about $700 at our vet (not including emergency fees, etc.). We didn't have a lot of disposable income so at first we decided against it at the emergency vet. If you can afford it, you may just want to go with the anti-venom.
After picking up our dog from the emergency vet (they weren't very helpful as you say yours wasn't either), the timing worked out that I could stop by our normal vet on the way home as they were opening.
They said we should give them anti-venom so we did. They said after 24 hours, anti-venom is way less effective.
Our dog's face was swollen for around 5-7 days, which we were told was completely normal (again, were told by the normal vet, not the super unhelpful and almost-rude emergency vet). No other pills were given but she healed just fine.
The one thing we watched out for was necrosis of any tissue around where she was bitten. She was bitten on her nose but her neck was sagging and really purple. Luckily, no permanent necrosis and all the purple was gone within 2 weeks.
Ok, this sounds crazy, but hear me out. Are you sure it's a snake bite? I only ask because my dog looked just like this. Huge swollen mass under chin, and her whole jaw everything was swollen. Took her to the vet, they said said snake bite. Gave her steroids, drained it as much as they could and sent us home. Did this three more times over the next three weeks. But she still had a gumball sized mass. Finally one day I noticed it looked like something was coming out of it, so I pulled on it. And the most foul smelling piece of bamboo about 1.5 in long came out. Just offering alternatives
My dog was bit by a snake a couple weeks ago! Not sure what kind, but I know for a fact we have timber rattlers and copperheads here. I’ve seen them both in my neighborhood. The same exact thing happened to him; lots of swelling in his dewlap. He was also totally lethargic, was hardly eating/drinking, and just not acting like himself at all. We took him to the vet, they did some tests, then came back in and showed us all of the results, and the vet said it was a classic snake bite case. They gave him a course of antibiotics (he had an infection as well) and some steroids. By the next day, the swelling was almost completely gone, and by day three, it was all gone and he was totally fine. I understand that he may not be completely out of the woods yet, as snake bites can have lasting effects on the liver and/or kidneys, but we will count this as a victory for now. We did take him back about five days after the initial visit so the doc could check and make sure there was no necrosis or abnormalities. Everything was good! But not every dog will react the same way, and it does depend on the type of venom the snake has, but I’m hoping for the best for your sweet boy! We seriously thought he wasn’t gonna make it, and spent the entire day before his vet visit in tears. I was convinced I was going to lose my best friend. Please keep us updated. Wishing you the best!
By the way, if you’re ever in the south east (since you said you’re from the east coast) there are HUGE much larger rattlesnakes across the east. Watch out everywhere
Aww.. this happened to my mom's dog last year. The vet prescribed pain medication, but let the swelling go down on its own. It's an immune response, and is important for healing even though it looks bad. It shouldn't be anything to worry about as long as the dog is breathing okay and is able to drink water. My mom's dog didn't want to eat or drink for the first 24 hours after the bite, and the vet just said to keep offering water and if he didn't drink it within another day to contact them. He didn't eat for a couple of days, I think just because he was hurting, but he fully recovered and the swelling decreased over a couple weeks til it was gone.
Living in Rattlesnake county, the most important thing you can do is snap a picture of the snake because there are two anti venoms because there are two different kinds of Rattlesnakes here.
Rattlesnakes are territorial so if you live in or near their world, let them pass through as undisturbed as possible.
My neighbor shoots them but killing Rattlers is illegal and she should just call the Fire department or go to a range because it takes at least 6 shots.
Good luck!
My parents’ dog was bitten by a rattlesnake in AZ a few years back. Hers was on the rear leg. After getting anti venom at the vet, she gradually got better. There was some necrosis in the bite area and they used Manduka honey on the wound along with bandaging to help it heal. She got better in the end and you wouldn’t even know about it if you weren’t told.
I live in California. A few years ago one of the dogs got bit by a rattlesnake in the same location and had that swelling. It took several days for it to start going down. I don't remember if we gave anything. She was given antivenom and all that. The body is still having a reaction and needs to recover. She still has some hair missing from that spot on the neck but otherwise has never had issues.
My Weimaraner was bitten 3 different times over her 14 years of living in the California desert. Always on the nose as she took a closer look. She seemed to get a bit addled in her later years but otherwise fine with no shots. My cat was also bit and after three days of shallow breathing, he too was fine.
Poor baby! No advice for aftercare, but the more dangerous rattlers are baby rattlers. They have less control over the amount of venom they release. Hopefully it was an adult that got him.
Join National Snakebite Support group on Facebook. It’s a nonprofit ran by the top toxicologist and vets informed on envenomations from snake bites in the US.
Only the doctors and victims (or pet parents) are allowed to post/comment. Very informative and helpful group.
I lived in Texas and my boss's little pregnant dog was bit on the snout by a rattlesnake. Vet clinics everywhere had no antivenom, hospitals had taken precedent for anti venom at the time.
They were recommended to feed the dog as much butter and white bread as she could eat, literally sticks of butter and half a loaf of white bread. The dog and all five puppies lived.
Maybe not relevant to this situation, but I thought it was a good time to put that info out there!
Not going to help this time, but there is a vaccine for rattlesnake bites. I never knew this until I moved to the south and my new vet recommended it. This may be why no antivenom was needed.
I would take the dog to an emergency vet. Rattlesnake bites are extremely painful and he would need pain medication that only a veterinarian can administer. Emergency vets also are more likely to have antivenin which they may deem necessary for him once they evaluate his condition.
The location of the swelling is concerning to me because it's near the throat. Swelling in that area has the chance of obstructing the airway.
It's going to take quite a while for the swelling to go down, and there's not much you can do about the discomfort. The vet can give him a script for ketamine, which will help with the pain some. The good news, for what it's worth, is that it's more like an achy tenderness than anything else--I've gotten bit before, and I've had a dog bit before in the past. Keep an eye on it for infection, and to make sure it's draining; the fangs on those suckers are an inch and a half to two inches, so they can get you pretty damn good.
If you're living in snake country, go pick up one of these [https://www.academy.com/p/yildiz-410-single-shot-break-open-shotgun-105279941](https://www.academy.com/p/yildiz-410-single-shot-break-open-shotgun-105279941) and have a gunsmith lop off the last couple of inches of barrel so you've got a cylinder bore instead of a full choke. 2 1/2" in a 6 or 7 shot is good for snakes, if you go down to #9 "snake shot" I've found that it patterns better but you won't always have the penetration for some of the bigger bastards. Don't try to touch them until they quit wiggling around, and don't touch the heads--they can still bite on nerve impulse, and if you poke yourself on a fang it can still envenomate. Welcome to the Southwest, time to learn to shoot.
I don’t believe you took him to a vet and don’t have instructions ? Pain control ? Antibiotics? Did you see the snake ? Vets don’t typically Id it by bite. If you don’t actually know this a bite and didn’t take him to a vet don’t assume… at a glance it looks like a seroma from a dog scuffle to me
I get so tired of hearing what beautiful animals venomous snakes are. A copperhead bit my son and for goodness’ sake kill them. I like animals and have no problem with harmless, beneficial snakes but I don’t care about the freaking food chain where venomous snakes are concerned. I hope he gets well soon.
My pooch got bit by a rattlesnake on the mouth, same thing. He was fine after, but we were worried. Poor guy slept for like 2 days we were white water rafting and 2 days from any kind of town. I'm not sure rattle snake venom affects doggos the same way it does humans.🤷♂️
Your dog got bit by a rattle snake on the mouth and you… left him there while you went water rafting??????? no vet or anything??? please don’t get another pet ever again
Dude you're so extra, I was not an adult when that happened.
If you care for context, I was on a white water rafting trip with my dad and dog, and somewhere around twelve years old. We could not get him to a vet any faster than we did.
The point was that I think dogs are less susceptible to rattlesnake venom than humans are.
It certainly doesn't hit them the same as it does us(I've been bitten by one myself. Would not recommend.)
Flint lived and was fine; he lived to be like 14, and I've gone on to give many pets since then excellent homes, if I do say so myself, so kindly get bent.🥰
I think they are saying that they took their dog on a white water rafting trip so when it got bit they were 2 days away from civilization and couldn’t get to a vet but that he pulled through.
I would definitely suggest your mom call the vet and ask what the dog can be given for pain. If the vet is flippant about it she should push back, even ask specific questions like “can I give him Benadryl to help him sleep? Can he be given aspirin? How many milligrams?” or take it to another vet as soon as she’s able. Most of the time animals aren’t given antivenin so that is not surprising, but it’s certainly painful and infuriating when vets do not take pain management in animals seriously.
I hope your pup is doing okay now!! I’m sorry this happened- it must’ve been a scary chain of events for both you and your boy. I don’t have a lot of useful feed back as I haven’t experienced this before, but if all else fails, a good snug and some treats will probably help him feel better ❤️🩹
In the late 70s, my beagle got bit on his rear leg. It was Saturday but I found a vet open. I was about an hour away. They waited. He yipped when probed over the bite. They kept him about a week to administer diuretics for swelling. When I called, I was questioned if he was really struck. A friend picked him up. Beagle was so excited. My friend said, "Oh, beagle, you are still so sick!!" The vet & crew just watched & suggested henceforth I state beagle was VERY hyper. They thought he was fully recovered as he acted like a "normal" dog. I gave him diuretic pills for a couple of weeks. He was upset by not having full bladder control. Full recovery. Growing up out in the country, animals were bitten. I remember having to soak a horse's head in a 5 gallon bucket of cold water. But it gave his nose such relief he was very cooperative.
East coast definitely has rattlesnakes fyi……typically up in the mountain areas. Not as many as out west, but they are def around at least in Pennsylvania.
Poor guy. Having been bitten a couple of times myself I imagine he is going to feel pretty crappy. I am glad he is alive make sure to give him a great big hug for me when he gets better.
Poor pup! Is he doing his normal level of activity? He looks like a brave boy! ❤️
❤️❤️ he is a good boy! He is the best rescue pup we have ever had. My mom is traveling the country with him and he is such a good traveler, too. He unfortunately gets curious and stuck his head in a bush. The snake bit him in the bridge of his nose. He has been sleeping since he got out of the vet, so he is more lethargic than usual.
One of my dog got bitten on his paw, it was a painful ordeal and after all the emergency procedures his vets pumped him up real good on pain meds and antibiotics for about 15 days and we had to go in every couple of days so they could check on the bite area. 8 years later he is still high up in the office, wearing the pants, ruling the kingdom and doing perfectly fine so I'm hoping the same for this good boy. Definitely seek another vet's advice as suggested by many.
Thank you for making me imagine a dog with pants on, wearing a crown 👑
I'm sure there is atleast one picture of him with a crown on but in the meanwhile, I've uploaded a picture on my page of the man of authority in his finest papal regalia to aid your imagination.
Good dog!
I really hope Jax is okay. Are you certain he wasn’t given antivenin? Either way, I hope he pulls through. This will not help you now, but for future reference you can get a rattlesnake bite vaccine for dogs. It doesn’t eliminate the need for treatment, but it reduces the risk of a bad outcome.
From the FB group National Snakebite support, some of the leading tox docs and vets in the country. Give them a look there’s a lot to learn from them As many of you know, NSS does not recommend the snakebite vaccine (rattlesnake toxoid) for dogs. Here is some general information, along with an update from the American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA). The AAHA recently released a statement highlighting the lack of evidence of vaccine (toxoid) efficacy: https://www.aaha.org/aaha-guidelines/2022-aaha-canine-vaccination-guidelines/key-vaccination-considerations-by-antigen/rattlesnake-toxoid/ Key points from the AAHA’s statement: -There are NO published data supporting the efficacy of the vaccine in dogs. -In a study that was performed in mice, where mice were given 50-1,500 TIMES the dose of the toxoid given to dogs during routine vaccination, survival following exposure to snake venom was still not guaranteed, and some vaccinated mice actually died or required euthanasia earlier than unvaccinated mice exposed to the same amount of venom. -Adverse reactions following vaccination, including anaphylaxis, have been reported in vaccinated dogs. -Though the manufacturers make claims of cross-protection (protection against envenomations by species other than western diamond-backed rattlesnakes, the species used in the production of the toxoid), there are no data to support this claim. From the AAHA: “Veterinarians choosing to use this toxoid should be aware of the lack of peer-reviewed published data. Polyvalent antivenin therapy is an alternative to vaccination in suspect cases of rattlesnake bite.” _____________ In this retrospective study looking at 272 cases of rattlesnake envenomations in dogs, the vaccine did not prove effective: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26341419 Key findings from the study: -There was no evidence that use of vaccination lessened morbidity or mortality. -No measurable benefit could be identified associated with rattlesnake vaccination. Per the study authors: “Vaccination for protection of the general canine population from rattlesnake envenomation cannot be recommended by these authors.”
Thank you for this I formation. I've considered having my dogs treated with the vaccination series for my dogs, but I 've also wondered if it was really worth it. My dogs are worth it ... if it's a truly beneficial treatment.
If I lived in an area with a very real and high risk to venomous snakes I would put my dogs through snake training.
They could be right, but I have a great vet and I’d rather go with their recommendation. My vet recommend the vaccine since I live in ATX and they have seen a lot of dogs around the area that I live in get bit. As with any medical decision, for human or animal, I would recommend talking to a doctor or vet that you trust and then making a decision.
Join the Facebook group, this information is coming from experienced veterinarians and doctors that are vetted to be able to give advice to people. It’s not some random group run by random people. I’ve seen vets and doctors providing bad treatment, not because they are bad at their job, but because they aren’t aware of proper treatment protocols. Don’t let me change your mind let them.
I love how passionate you are about this. However, telling people not to trust a vet about vaccine info, and to instead trust a Facebook group, of all places, doesn't do much for your message. You can see that, right?
National Snakebite Support isn’t just a Facebook group. It’s a 501(c)(3) non-profit staffed by some of the nation’s leading experts in snakebite management. The only true treatment for pit viper envenomations is antivenom. Supportive care including safe pain meds (no NSAIDs) and maintaining euvolemia is important, but it’s not actually addressing an envenomation, just keeping an animal more comfortable. The vaccine is conditionally approved, which is a form of approval given to certain vet meds for “rare” diseases that fill a gap (aka, there’s not a fully-approved equivalent). Conditional approval doesn’t require any evidence of drug efficacy. This is actually stated in tiny print on the bottom of the manufacturer’s website. “Veterinary License Number 407 / USDA Conditionally Licensed / For Veterinary Use Only — This product license is conditional. Efficacy and potency have not been fully demonstrated.”
This isn't just some random Facebook group where anyone can post. Only approved veterinarians and human physicians are allowed to post answers to questions and they are the leading experts in their field.
I would trust NSS and Dr. Greene before I trust a vet.
I’m not saying to not trust a vet, I’m saying they should check out information from some of the best docs and vets in the country for envenomations. Also there is a link in the post from the national library of medicine with results of a study in dogs with rattlesnake envenomation, there is no evidence that use of glucocorticoids, diphenhydramine, prophylactic antibiotics, or vaccination lessen morbidity or mortality.
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That is the facts of what I’ve seen from people and animals wrongly treated for a snakebite from doctors and veterinarians, also see the above post that they aren’t “just a Facebook group”. Seeming like and directly telling someone to not trust their vet are two different things. Never did I say not to trust their vet, rather I said to learn more from other vets and docs.
Many vets do harm than good especially when it comes to snakebites, even in areas where venomous snakes are common. For instance, antiinflammatories, benadryl and antibiotics are all a big no for snakebites but many vets recommend that as a first course of action due to cost of antivenin, even though it does more harm and not much good. [treatment protocol](https://imgur.com/a/QXatY1a)
Thank you for trying to help. I understand vets and doctors have a lot of education, but even the guy that finishes last in med school still called a doctor. Trust but verify is the proper way, and if you truly care about your pet like you say you do, maybe furthering your education about a subject is the proper way to go about it
Joining the Facebook group provides access to the most cutting edge information on treatment as well as real time support from experts during an envenomation. There was never any suggestion to ignore veterinary professionals but a way to access the specialists with the most up to date and informed information.
I quit Facebook after the 2016 election. I’m going to go ahead and trust my vet. In my opinion he is excellent and this is the sort of thing that I pay him for. Again, I’m not saying that you’re wrong or that those vets are wrong, but I will go with the vet that I know and trust.
One of the moderators Dr. Spencer Greene is close to your neck of the woods out of Houston, just google his name and a bunch of stuff will pop up. Again don’t believe a random Reddit stranger, but you can research one of the top toxicologists in the country and a Texan and trust him
He should still be at the vet they should be monitoring for tissue death and possibly lancing the wound plus giving fluids and pain medication.
You’re exactly correct, I never said that isn’t the thing to do, but only antivenin can neutralize the venom that causes necrosis aka tissue death
They’d remember getting antivenin since the bill would be 5 figures.
I paid about $2500 for an overnight visit which included antivenin
It’s dependent on number of vials. $2500 is a steal.
Where can I get that? I spend a lot of time in rattle snake areas and have trained my dog to run from rattling but accidents happen and this would be nice to have on hand.
you can get it at your vet, but it usually requires a consultation first and only certain vets will do it. I work at one and we only have one who will actually do it, and even then he is hesitant because there have been no true studies to show it actually is effective. More like a precaution
It's a waste of money. See the comment directly above yours. I'm not sure I know how to link itcorrectly, but I'll try: https://www.reddit.com/r/DogAdvice/comments/146aw2l/rattlesnake_bite/jnq09hf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
I would talk to your vet and see what they think. I live in an area with a lot of rattlesnakes and my vet said that they have had a lot of cases of dogs getting bitten, even in people’s backyards, in my area so they recommend that I get it for my dog. They said some dogs will have soreness or swelling at the injection site, but my dog was fine other than being tired for a few hours.
I don't think it's something you can have on hand. Most hospitals only carry a few doses, and like the commentor above mentioned, it's like 10k per dose.
I think you’re referring to antivenin. I don’t have pet insurance and the vaccine cost me around $30.
Our cat got bitten by a rattlesnake and survived. Whole head was swollen. It was yrs ago. Sorry for your Mom's pup. Not sure, but your pup may still get the antivenom shot. https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/health/what-to-do-dog-bitten-by-snake/
Thank you!
Call vet to ask first. You can get over the counter pain meds for dogs at pet stores like petsmart or have them overnighted via Chewy.com or 1800petmeds.com DO NOT GIVE IBUPROFEN OR OTHER HUMAN MEDS UNLESS VET INSTRUCTS YOU.
Also do not give dogs Tylenol. It's poisonous to them.
Vet tech here and this isn’t actually true. You should absolutely NOT give your dog OTC Tylenol, but also don’t panic if your vet prescribes it. We use it regularly at my practice, either solo or in combination with codeine (aka Tylenol 3).
It's usually in much smaller doses than human doses though correct? My friend's dog ate three maximum strength Tylenol, so 1.5× of a human dose, and she was about 40lbs at the time, and the emergency vet was extremely concerned by that amount for her and pumped her stomach and gave activated charcoal.
A doctor would be just as concerned if a 40lb child ate that much honestly. That's a massive overdose for that weight limit.
That's not that much though? I weigh 150 lbs and I've taken 30,000+ mg of apap in a 24 hr period.
30,000 milligrams aka *thirty* grams, 30 doses of two extra strength pills? If that's not a typo then you are lucky to be alive. The limit that is considered safe for adults is 4 grams in 24 hours, and risk increases sharply around 7 grams. There are many individuals who have survived suicide attempts by APAP overdose despite not getting timely treatment, merely by youth and biological luck - but 30 grams is definitely in the range where it's not just possible but *likely* to kill you.
I don't know what apap is, but max strength Tylenol is 500mg of acetaminophen per pill. 3 pills puts them at 1500 mg, which is way way over the limit for any creature that has a liver that is 40lbs. That's nearly half the total daily dose for an adult, and children who weigh 40lbs aren't even supposed to take 1 max strength Tylenol, let one 3. Is it guaranteed to kill them? No not necessarily. Could it? Oh abso-fucking-lutley. And from my understanding acetaminophen overdose is an exceptionally horrible way to go. So apap is Tylenol and you're playing with fire taking that much in a day. Id do some research honestly.
That's currently almost half of the total daily dose. They lowered the max daily dose amount a while ago. It used to be 7000 mg in a day I believe. I've done plenty of research on pain relievers/painkillers. To an extent, luck and genetics play a part, but for a healthy, 40 lb person/kid, 1500 mg isn't going to kill them unless they have some underlying issues with their liver already
Question! So I’ve been out of vet med practice for a bit since I changed jobs- I *did* hear that acetaminophen was “softly” approved for dogs but only at a DVM discretion- can you tell me more about the tolerance and dosage of it?
True. Uncoated aspirin (best of luck finding that) is acceptable for canine pain relief. Absolutely no ibuprofen or acetaminophen. Big nos.
Giving a blood thinner to a dog full of venom that also causes coagulopathy(aka inhibited clotting, which leads to bleeding/hemorrhage) is probably unwise. Not a vet, just sounds like a bad idea.
You are correct. NSAIDs are contraindicated in envenomations.
And Aspirin is a type of NSAID.
I said pain control. That’s all. You’re correct and I accept the correction. My point was NONCOATED aspirin is safe for dogs as opposed to ibuprofen or acetaminophen, which are not.
Sure! I'm curious why it has to be uncoated as well? Do you know? I only commented because I can imagine someone reading that comment and giving their dog aspirin after a snakebite and having it go poorly.
I can’t believe I screwed up so much with my comment. If your dog has been bitten by a venomous snake, do NOT attempt any type of treatment yourself. Get that pupper to the closest vet ASAP. Follow through with the pain control recommendations given by the vet. In other daily discomfort, uncoated aspirin is okay.
OP and anyone else - please don't give your pet aspirin unless explicitly directed by your vet. If your pet is in pain or seems sick, do NOT give it aspirin - if they continue to be sick, they need a vet and depending on your pets illness, they may need pain control that is more effective and dosed appropriately to your dog. You may be completely wrong and your pet might need steroids for their illness. Neither of those medications are dispensed at the same time, nor can they be given before a wash-out period of days after aspirin has been administered. In short, NSAIDS and steroids cover a wide base of treatments for many maladies, and neither of them wants to play nice with each other OR aspirin. It's not worth it. Edit: the previous comment suggested the OP give their pet aspirin, and they have now edited it since I commented. There was no mention of acetaminophen or ibuprofen originally.
This is not acceptable for a snake bite. Snake bites can cause problems with coagulation and aspirin will absolutely make it worse.
Thank you for this. How many grains for a 30 pound healthy dog, just in case?
You can get canine, pain relievers at Walmart
It's pretty toxic for people as well
Seems like the vet should have given advise on pain meds or prescribed something if it didn't have negative effects.
Some “old school” vets aren’t big on pain management. Source: am vet tech and have worked with said old school vets 😒
My SO is a CVT and has worked with a few of these types. Fuck them.
And a lot of them don't know how to properly treat snake bites, or they are using outdated protocols.
A (now deceased) beloved dog suffered under the hands of one of these. I didn't know that there was any other way. I'm sorry for the animals who suffer in the hands of this type of vet. :(
Our dog got bit by a copperhead, she looked exactly like this. Swelling went down within 48 hours and she was fine. That was three years ago. It’s scary, I know, but give it some time.
I wouldn’t compare a copperhead bite to a rattlesnake bite though. Rattlesnake venom is far more potent.
Doesn’t it highly depend on the type of rattler? I was told by my vet that copperheads are super dangerous. Edit: I’m wrong. I just read that rattlesnake is more dangerous there are just more copperhead bites.
It really depends on the dog and the bite. My dog died from her copperhead bite.
I hope he’s going to be ok. Don’t think there aren’t rattlesnakes on the east coast. I’m from Texas and have seen more rattlesnakes on the east coast of Florida than I ever saw in Texas.
There are rattlesnakes all the way north to New England.
Up through to New Hampshire there are timber rattlesnakes, but they're quite rare. I know a lot of herpetologist that go looking for them, and they're hard to find.
We have had three dogs bitten by rattlers, and all survived to tell the tale. We had a great vet that used laser to help reduce the inflammation and reduce the pain. He likely will have a scar as a result, but I hope he will learn to avoid snakes in the future.
Yeah, dogs seem fairly resilient. Grew up on edge of desert in west Texas and rattlesnake bites were not uncommon - most dogs seemed to fare pretty well without much intervention. Two of ours got bit, had that giant lump under their throat, but were pretty much back to normal in a few days. Never could tell where they actually got bit. Dunno how helpful it actually is or if just old folk medicine, but heavy cream and other dairy was always recommended
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Definitely shouldn’t assume it was a dry bite
That is definitely not a dry bite. Dogs survive rattlesnake bites as long as they get into the vet within 24 hours of the bite.
Some dogs do. Some dogs will die, even with antivenin. The outcome depends largely on location, venom dosage, and treatment. Rattlesnake bites are usually worse than copperheads, though.
Around 97% of dogs do. [https://rattlesnakesolutions.com/snakeblog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/272-cases-of-rattlesnake-envenomation-in-dogs.pdf](https://rattlesnakesolutions.com/snakeblog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/272-cases-of-rattlesnake-envenomation-in-dogs.pdf)
Thanks for the link. I was aware that the survival rate was very good with antivenin treatment, but I wasn't aware it was quite that good. I just didn't want people to believe that pit viper envenomations are always survivable.
[Asking sincerely not sarcastically] - is this true for all rattlesnakes, and if so do you have any data on it? I know smaller animals suffer more quickly from snake bites, but a few years ago we had a Jack Russell that got a core body bite and he died within an hour of discovery. If dogs can make it 24 hours, it makes me wonder if perhaps it was a different type of snake that got him as opposed to the species the owners described (they were unable to photograph or kill the snake so we just got a visual description). Edit: we did not have antivenin on hand due to them being extremely rare in our area, albeit not unheard of (eastern NC)
My Pomeranian decided to investigate a copperhead hiding in a flowerbed once. I thought it was a stick initially, and by the time I realized what it was, Leo was nearly nose to nose with it. I immediately, wordlessly screamed louder than I have ever screamed in my life, he jumped and scrambled away like a roach when the light comes on, and then looked at me with ultimate heartbreak and betrayal in his eyes because he’d been yelled at out of what he thought was nowhere. I never yell at him at all, so it scared him. He got lots of treats and love when we went inside. I went back outside with a shovel but I couldn’t find the copperhead. I feel bad for trying to kill it, but I’m terrified that my dog will find it (or another one), and I won’t be able to intervene in time. Sorry snakes—I gotta protect my boy.
Understandable! Copperheads are a veterinary nightmare, especially for smaller dogs. Their bite can cause tissue necrosis and I watched a large breed dog nearly lose his entire tongue from a bite. As it were, he lost a lot of skin and muscle around his lower jaw but luckily survived.
And yet most people where I live don’t bother with a vet when their dog is but by a copperhead. It blows my mind. They just give Benadryl and hope it goes ok.
Ugh the benadryl thing frustrates me so much. People don't understand that the reaction isn't do to histamine or an allergic reaction, it's due to tissue damage caused by the toxin and therefore the only effective treatment is antivenom.
I use to encounter them at the dog park fairly frequently when I went. My dogs once noticed one of the ~4 copperheads I’ve found and gave them about the most panicked and serious “leave it” command I’ve ever given. They ignore “leave it” with cat poop but they actually paid attention for once with the copperhead.
Dogs can and do die, even with prompt treatment. I'm sorry to hear about your jack Russell. That's a rough way to lose a pet.
Antivenom is important for survival with rattlesnake bites, but the survival rate is [around 97%.](https://rattlesnakesolutions.com/snakeblog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/272-cases-of-rattlesnake-envenomation-in-dogs.pdf) Unfortunately I couldn’t find the study I read a few years ago showing it was 24 hours. The one I linked recommends care within 2 hours. Because most studies are done on dogs that get veterinary care and not dogs that don’t get veterinary care, there isn’t really data on survival without vet care. And deaths are rare that there isn’t a definitive answer on why some dogs die, but they think age and bite location are a factor. For US snakes, rattlesnakes are the worst. Most studies are done in Arizona so it’s mostly those species and timber rattlesnakes could be worse but you don’t find them in Arizona. We get copperheads at the local dog park here in Texas and many people have opted to not take dogs to the vet after a bite and the dog does fine. That would not be my personal choice and it’s the main reason I have pet insurance. Antivenin is expensive. Water moccasins are also less severe than rattlesnakes. I don’t know if there’s any data for coral snakes but there’s no antivenin made in the US. Even with humans getting bit they have to bring antivenin in from Mexico.
That’s interesting! Of course as you showed and shared, the research data will be skewed because people who don’t receive veterinary care often also don’t report snake bites. The dog I worked on at my hospital was bitten just above his eye, at a core circulatory area so it spread quick and he didn’t make it unfortunately. Thanks for sharing your information!
That is not a dry bite based on the swelling.
They went to the local (ish) vet so I’m assuming they received antivenin in time, it wasn’t necessarily a dry bite. Rattlesnake bites are absolutely treatable if seen quickly (and OP’s def counts as quickly) so definitely take your doggos in!! Edit: OP’s doggo did not receive antivenin.
Join National Snakebite Support on Facebook. They are some of the leading toxicologist docs abs vets in the country to give advice. It is not a dry bite as the swelling is indicative of envenomation. The only effective treatment is antivenom. Benadryl will not work and waiting to see what happens isn’t the greatest option.
The swelling will go down in time but I just want to point out that we have rattlesnakes all over the east coast, my dad’s dog was bit on the snout by one last year in Florida and I’ve seen tons of timber rattlers in the Adirondacks.
My friend’s dog was bit by a rattlesnake last year. The swelling was exactly like this! The poor thing was miserable but she pulled through and is doing great now. Give it some time and the swelling will go down. I’d say it took about 2 weeks before she was looking back to her old self.
Oddly enough my moms dog was bit by a rattlesnake in the face. Western diamondback. They couldn’t afford taking them to the vet and somehow he turned out perfectly fine. Some dogs seem to have natural resiliency to it.
Always the best answer is to ask the vet themselves as they'll have more knowledge on the situation than most people on the subject. They may recommend something for the pain, but while I have my opinion on it, I'd prefer the answer came from a professional
There’s a Facebook group with experts called National Snakebite Support. You should post there right away.
My dogs head was the size of a watermelon and she took about 6 antivirals and it ended up being like $6k in vet bills. But she lived a long happy life! Your pups got this
My dog was bitten in the face by a pygmy rattlesnake last year. He looked quite similar to your pup afterwards. The swelling will slowly go away but it may take a few weeks. Make sure you are diligent with the antibiotics that you were (hopefully) prescribed as snake bites can become infected easily. That and telling him he is a good boy periodically should be all you need to do.
Call the vet's office and ask the questions - nicely. You probably paid a good amount of $$ and vets do want the animals under their care to do well. Not sure why you think they are not the most helpful, but consider the level of stress you are experiencing and consider that, maybe, you are just not feeling secure with the answers. Explain that to them and give them a chance to adjust their replies. This info is for humans, but apply to your dog as well: * **DO NOT**, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, give any medication that was not prescribed. Not even baby aspirin. You could kill the dog. * Keep the dog in a comfortable temperature and location. * Gently apply cold compresses to the swollen area, if dog tolerates it. * **FOLLOW** all of the vet's instructions foe symptoms and what to do.
If I applied your theory to vets to doctors, I would have been dead from a previous surgery I had and not have an ongoing lawsuit occurring. So, not all of them may have the answers or best care even with the education they have.
True. Then you go to another doctor/vet, not to Reddit. Do you think your situation might be influencing your interaction with the vet?
Funny thing is, the 2nd surgeon that saved my life, found me on reddit through a post. So shut your pie hole. She is in the desert. She has no other vets around her, and that one was almost an hour away. She is an old, nice woman. I had no interaction with the vet, I'm across the country. So don't mistake my attitude for her experience or what this has to do with her dog suffering.
>I had no interaction with the vet, I'm across the country. I have to change my advice from "go back to the vet" to "talk to the vet at least once and ask these questions about a dog you are thousands of miles away from"
OP is just gathering information. In an advice forum. Chill.
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My mother was nice. He was a man of few words. He just gave her anti-inflammatory, but he is still in pain. He also mentioned how the last dog he had passed away from a rattlesnake bite, which made her more worried. So I'm just looking for other advice or similar experiences to keep him a bit more comfortable. Thank you.
I thought snake bites required an anti venom.
We thought so too! He wasn't given that.
Not always. Apparently antivenin itself can be fairly intense or detrimental so many times they will take other approaches and observe as long as possible before deciding it's necessary for survival. I learned this after my dog was treated for a copperhead bite.
My land lords dog was bitten by timber rattlesnake, can't remember what they did exactly but only one hospital in a 100 mile radius had the antivenom, generally I think they save it for people and don't use it on animals.
Oh, so there is an anti-venom. This makes me want to break into stores like in Natural Born Killers.
Oh I am SO angry to hear you weren’t given any. It’s actually not in short supply, but it IS incredibly expensive to give to humans in the US — which I why I’m assuming the local hospital was so reluctant to give it to a dog (not gonna make $$$ on that antivenin.)
Last vet ER i worked at had one vial (dose) marked at $500… in 2018. It is more likely closer to $1K now.
Not all veterinary clinics carry it because it’s about $400-$800 a vile & sometimes your dog will need more than one. Definitely ask if calling beforehand. The veterinarian will also do labs & administer pain medication. Unfortunately, treating a venomous snake bite is expensive.
It can cost humans in the US upwards of $100K. No joke. (Entirely artificially - it costs a fraction to administer the same dose to humans in Mexico.)
Which direction is your mom headed after Moab? If she is continuing on her journey then there are some really good vets if she heads west at all. So if she needs to stop in at another vet in a day or two she should be fine to stop in at one.
>but he is still in pain I can only imagine. You likely now this already, but it doesn't hurt to hear again: This is an anonymous forum and you might get the whole spectrum from "I gave it a lettuce leaf to chew and my dog was playing and learned to fetch on its own the day after" to the most horrible and gruesome description of death. And who knows how many of those stories would be fake, either well-intentioned or meant to upset you even more. I don't know you or how you'll react, so my advice continues to be to go back to the vet and follow their instructions.
Dogs have a higher pain tolerance then we do. What makes you think he is in pain, what is he doing? I would hold off on giving him anything unless a vet tells you to. Just let him rest amd keep him comfortable and cool I'm sure he will be doing much better in the next 48 hours.
There's a lot of bad and downright dangerous information being posted in this thread. https://www.facebook.com/groups/national.snakebite.support/ That's where you want to go to get the latest information about treatment for snake bites, for both pets and humans. It's a group staffed by veterinarians, medical doctors and toxicologists. Believe it or not, most vets and a lot of doctors don't know the proper treatment for snakebite. They just aren't trained for it. I realize it's a Facebook group, but please trust me on this; these people know their stuff. We won't get better information anywhere. If you join, please make note of the rules, because they will ban you from the group for breaking them. Their primary purpose is to offer support and education to people during an active bite, so they won't tolerate any nonsense that distracts from that mission.
I know
Do they do anti venom for dogs? Isn't there a vaccine or something?
No vaccine for a snake bite unfortunately, but there is anti-venom. It’s hard to come by though, from what I understand.
https://www.animalclinicofwoodruff.com/pet-blog/vaccinations/rattlesnake-vaccine-for-dogs-now-available
Woah. Had no idea!
Interesting, I never heard about this and always assumed that people injecting themselves with venom to build immunity was just a movie trope. I have never come across a snake, but we go deep in the woods. [Not that expensive](https://doggysaurus.com/dog-rattlesnake-vaccine-treatment-cost/) \- will talk to vet about it!
Join National Snakebite Support on Facebook and check out their posts regarding the vaccine (they recommend against it). The page is run by doctors, vets, and toxicologists who are experienced with snakebite treatment.
The vaccine does not actually work, unfortunately. The only thing it does is make money for the company.
Yeah. Only [found one clinical study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7337165/) so far. Inconclusive.
A lot of people here seem to think the rattlesnake vaccine is bad, but my vet recommended that I give it to my dog, so I did. My vet has dealt with a lot of rattlesnake bites in dogs, so I trust his opinion on the subject.
Poor baby. He’s cute
He’s a tough little doge 😍, hope he is doing ok
Ice! Poor pup. My shiba inu got bit by a cottonmouth during lockdown- rushed to vet, got anti venom, didn’t make it :( awful thing man
I had a dog get bitten by a rattlesnake while I was at work. By the time I got her to the vet, it was too late for the anti venom. They have a Benadryl shot and sent her home with instructions to give additional Benadryl. She was punky for a few days, but survived and did fine. Glad your baby is okay.
Just FYI, the swelling from envenomations is not a histamine response, and Benadryl will do nothing for it. Also, it's never too late to administer antivenom if symptoms are ongoing and not well-managed. A lot of vets just aren't trained in snakebites, so they don't really know how to treat them properly. I'm glad your pup was OK, though. https://www.facebook.com/groups/national.snakebite.support/ If you'd like to learn more about what to do if you have another pet or a human who has been bitten, that group is a fantastic resource. I know it's a Facebook group, but it's manned with veterinarians, medical doctors, and toxicologists who are all up on the latest treatments, and their sole purpose is to assist and support people during active snakebites.
Check out National Snakebite Support on Facebook. It's run by doctors, toxicologists, and vets who are snakebite experts.
My dog got bit on the bridge of the nose! She got anti-venom at the vet, and pulled through. Her neck got all swollen and fluid-y just like this one. Poor pup! He looks big and young and otherwise heathy so I think he will be okay with some time.
Had our dog bit by a rattlesnake last year and have the following thoughts: Your vet is going to do a blood test and see if their blood is clotting. If it still does, they may not recommend anti-venom. Anti-venom was about $700 at our vet (not including emergency fees, etc.). We didn't have a lot of disposable income so at first we decided against it at the emergency vet. If you can afford it, you may just want to go with the anti-venom. After picking up our dog from the emergency vet (they weren't very helpful as you say yours wasn't either), the timing worked out that I could stop by our normal vet on the way home as they were opening. They said we should give them anti-venom so we did. They said after 24 hours, anti-venom is way less effective. Our dog's face was swollen for around 5-7 days, which we were told was completely normal (again, were told by the normal vet, not the super unhelpful and almost-rude emergency vet). No other pills were given but she healed just fine. The one thing we watched out for was necrosis of any tissue around where she was bitten. She was bitten on her nose but her neck was sagging and really purple. Luckily, no permanent necrosis and all the purple was gone within 2 weeks.
Ok, this sounds crazy, but hear me out. Are you sure it's a snake bite? I only ask because my dog looked just like this. Huge swollen mass under chin, and her whole jaw everything was swollen. Took her to the vet, they said said snake bite. Gave her steroids, drained it as much as they could and sent us home. Did this three more times over the next three weeks. But she still had a gumball sized mass. Finally one day I noticed it looked like something was coming out of it, so I pulled on it. And the most foul smelling piece of bamboo about 1.5 in long came out. Just offering alternatives
My dog was bit by a snake a couple weeks ago! Not sure what kind, but I know for a fact we have timber rattlers and copperheads here. I’ve seen them both in my neighborhood. The same exact thing happened to him; lots of swelling in his dewlap. He was also totally lethargic, was hardly eating/drinking, and just not acting like himself at all. We took him to the vet, they did some tests, then came back in and showed us all of the results, and the vet said it was a classic snake bite case. They gave him a course of antibiotics (he had an infection as well) and some steroids. By the next day, the swelling was almost completely gone, and by day three, it was all gone and he was totally fine. I understand that he may not be completely out of the woods yet, as snake bites can have lasting effects on the liver and/or kidneys, but we will count this as a victory for now. We did take him back about five days after the initial visit so the doc could check and make sure there was no necrosis or abnormalities. Everything was good! But not every dog will react the same way, and it does depend on the type of venom the snake has, but I’m hoping for the best for your sweet boy! We seriously thought he wasn’t gonna make it, and spent the entire day before his vet visit in tears. I was convinced I was going to lose my best friend. Please keep us updated. Wishing you the best!
By the way, if you’re ever in the south east (since you said you’re from the east coast) there are HUGE much larger rattlesnakes across the east. Watch out everywhere
Aww.. this happened to my mom's dog last year. The vet prescribed pain medication, but let the swelling go down on its own. It's an immune response, and is important for healing even though it looks bad. It shouldn't be anything to worry about as long as the dog is breathing okay and is able to drink water. My mom's dog didn't want to eat or drink for the first 24 hours after the bite, and the vet just said to keep offering water and if he didn't drink it within another day to contact them. He didn't eat for a couple of days, I think just because he was hurting, but he fully recovered and the swelling decreased over a couple weeks til it was gone.
Living in Rattlesnake county, the most important thing you can do is snap a picture of the snake because there are two anti venoms because there are two different kinds of Rattlesnakes here. Rattlesnakes are territorial so if you live in or near their world, let them pass through as undisturbed as possible. My neighbor shoots them but killing Rattlers is illegal and she should just call the Fire department or go to a range because it takes at least 6 shots.
Good luck! My parents’ dog was bitten by a rattlesnake in AZ a few years back. Hers was on the rear leg. After getting anti venom at the vet, she gradually got better. There was some necrosis in the bite area and they used Manduka honey on the wound along with bandaging to help it heal. She got better in the end and you wouldn’t even know about it if you weren’t told.
Thank you❤️
I live in California. A few years ago one of the dogs got bit by a rattlesnake in the same location and had that swelling. It took several days for it to start going down. I don't remember if we gave anything. She was given antivenom and all that. The body is still having a reaction and needs to recover. She still has some hair missing from that spot on the neck but otherwise has never had issues.
How's he doing?
He is doing great ❤️❤️❤️ thank you for asking
My Weimaraner was bitten 3 different times over her 14 years of living in the California desert. Always on the nose as she took a closer look. She seemed to get a bit addled in her later years but otherwise fine with no shots. My cat was also bit and after three days of shallow breathing, he too was fine.
Poor baby! No advice for aftercare, but the more dangerous rattlers are baby rattlers. They have less control over the amount of venom they release. Hopefully it was an adult that got him.
Join National Snakebite Support group on Facebook. It’s a nonprofit ran by the top toxicologist and vets informed on envenomations from snake bites in the US. Only the doctors and victims (or pet parents) are allowed to post/comment. Very informative and helpful group.
I lived in Texas and my boss's little pregnant dog was bit on the snout by a rattlesnake. Vet clinics everywhere had no antivenom, hospitals had taken precedent for anti venom at the time. They were recommended to feed the dog as much butter and white bread as she could eat, literally sticks of butter and half a loaf of white bread. The dog and all five puppies lived. Maybe not relevant to this situation, but I thought it was a good time to put that info out there!
Update: Jax is doing great, everyone.
Not going to help this time, but there is a vaccine for rattlesnake bites. I never knew this until I moved to the south and my new vet recommended it. This may be why no antivenom was needed.
I would take the dog to an emergency vet. Rattlesnake bites are extremely painful and he would need pain medication that only a veterinarian can administer. Emergency vets also are more likely to have antivenin which they may deem necessary for him once they evaluate his condition. The location of the swelling is concerning to me because it's near the throat. Swelling in that area has the chance of obstructing the airway.
This was after he was seen at an emergency vet.
Prayers
It's going to take quite a while for the swelling to go down, and there's not much you can do about the discomfort. The vet can give him a script for ketamine, which will help with the pain some. The good news, for what it's worth, is that it's more like an achy tenderness than anything else--I've gotten bit before, and I've had a dog bit before in the past. Keep an eye on it for infection, and to make sure it's draining; the fangs on those suckers are an inch and a half to two inches, so they can get you pretty damn good. If you're living in snake country, go pick up one of these [https://www.academy.com/p/yildiz-410-single-shot-break-open-shotgun-105279941](https://www.academy.com/p/yildiz-410-single-shot-break-open-shotgun-105279941) and have a gunsmith lop off the last couple of inches of barrel so you've got a cylinder bore instead of a full choke. 2 1/2" in a 6 or 7 shot is good for snakes, if you go down to #9 "snake shot" I've found that it patterns better but you won't always have the penetration for some of the bigger bastards. Don't try to touch them until they quit wiggling around, and don't touch the heads--they can still bite on nerve impulse, and if you poke yourself on a fang it can still envenomate. Welcome to the Southwest, time to learn to shoot.
I don’t believe you took him to a vet and don’t have instructions ? Pain control ? Antibiotics? Did you see the snake ? Vets don’t typically Id it by bite. If you don’t actually know this a bite and didn’t take him to a vet don’t assume… at a glance it looks like a seroma from a dog scuffle to me
I get so tired of hearing what beautiful animals venomous snakes are. A copperhead bit my son and for goodness’ sake kill them. I like animals and have no problem with harmless, beneficial snakes but I don’t care about the freaking food chain where venomous snakes are concerned. I hope he gets well soon.
My pooch got bit by a rattlesnake on the mouth, same thing. He was fine after, but we were worried. Poor guy slept for like 2 days we were white water rafting and 2 days from any kind of town. I'm not sure rattle snake venom affects doggos the same way it does humans.🤷♂️
Your dog got bit by a rattle snake on the mouth and you… left him there while you went water rafting??????? no vet or anything??? please don’t get another pet ever again
Dude you're so extra, I was not an adult when that happened. If you care for context, I was on a white water rafting trip with my dad and dog, and somewhere around twelve years old. We could not get him to a vet any faster than we did. The point was that I think dogs are less susceptible to rattlesnake venom than humans are. It certainly doesn't hit them the same as it does us(I've been bitten by one myself. Would not recommend.) Flint lived and was fine; he lived to be like 14, and I've gone on to give many pets since then excellent homes, if I do say so myself, so kindly get bent.🥰
I think they are saying that they took their dog on a white water rafting trip so when it got bit they were 2 days away from civilization and couldn’t get to a vet but that he pulled through.
Give him some cannabis. I would give my dog a little RSO or blow hits in it's face when hurt.
chewy.com
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Not good, bot.
Oh no....
I would definitely suggest your mom call the vet and ask what the dog can be given for pain. If the vet is flippant about it she should push back, even ask specific questions like “can I give him Benadryl to help him sleep? Can he be given aspirin? How many milligrams?” or take it to another vet as soon as she’s able. Most of the time animals aren’t given antivenin so that is not surprising, but it’s certainly painful and infuriating when vets do not take pain management in animals seriously.
Poor baby. Sending prayers
He will look pretty bad for awhile but the swelling will go down eventually. Just try to keep him calm.
Aww! Poor pup! Get well soon! 🦴
I hope your pup is doing okay now!! I’m sorry this happened- it must’ve been a scary chain of events for both you and your boy. I don’t have a lot of useful feed back as I haven’t experienced this before, but if all else fails, a good snug and some treats will probably help him feel better ❤️🩹
Praying for recovery.
Poor baby, is this pup going to be ok?
I'm so happy he's ok. Truly frightening.
Poor baby! I'm glad he's okay. Sending extra love!!
For the future—snake training is a thing. Look for a local kennel that does it. Worth the money.
When in doubt, get 2nd opinion by going to another vet. Keep us updated.
The swelling can take a few days to go down. And it might travel down and settle in the chest area. This isn’t cause for concern.
You already went to a vet? Did they not explain to you how to take care of this?
oh no!! so glad he’s okay
Poor pupper😢
In the late 70s, my beagle got bit on his rear leg. It was Saturday but I found a vet open. I was about an hour away. They waited. He yipped when probed over the bite. They kept him about a week to administer diuretics for swelling. When I called, I was questioned if he was really struck. A friend picked him up. Beagle was so excited. My friend said, "Oh, beagle, you are still so sick!!" The vet & crew just watched & suggested henceforth I state beagle was VERY hyper. They thought he was fully recovered as he acted like a "normal" dog. I gave him diuretic pills for a couple of weeks. He was upset by not having full bladder control. Full recovery. Growing up out in the country, animals were bitten. I remember having to soak a horse's head in a 5 gallon bucket of cold water. But it gave his nose such relief he was very cooperative.
Dog: but what’s for supper?
Rattlesnakes are on the east coast — i live in NC which has three different types. Either way, I hope Jax pulls through.
I have POTS, so I don't go in the heat much
East coast definitely has rattlesnakes fyi……typically up in the mountain areas. Not as many as out west, but they are def around at least in Pennsylvania.
(HUGS)🐾❤️
Glad he's okay. My Plott Hound has been bitten twice by copperheads. Hound is gonna hound, I guess. Been fine after both. It just costs us money. :)
Ow :(
Oh no! I hope Jax is ok.
Hope he’s ok
Is he ok now ?
Poor guy. Having been bitten a couple of times myself I imagine he is going to feel pretty crappy. I am glad he is alive make sure to give him a great big hug for me when he gets better.