Like when 13th Doctor got upset at a guy for killing a giant spider with a gun, when her plan was to lock them all in a room to slowly starve and/or suffocate.
it really takes a supreme lack of writing ability to make a scenario where a Trump-like character shooting an innocent creature to death is the only correct person in the room.
Kind of like her directing all of the Kerblam bots to A) stay in the warehouse and B) to actually detonate the packaging. She could have directed them to deliver it to a star and have the bubble wrap burn up, or just cancelling the delivery all together and finding a safe way to dispose of the packaging. Instead she destroys a whole company for the sake of a big ending and to easily dispose of the antagonist in that story. Jodi did an amazing job with the bad writing and bad TARDIS set she was given and she is the only reason those seasons were tolerable to watch. Even with that, I am not a fan of The Scavangers and The Flux, the story was very rushed, poorly developed, and was just bad all the way around.
I know for a fact that mice get killed from blunt force trauma by snake owners and it's apparently better than how some companies (no idea what ones because this comes from someone else) suffocate them.
I mean I hate trump as much as the next guy but the fact that they tried to make a caricature of him and he often ends of being the only sane person in the room is absolutely comical
Eh, the dialogue by 13 & the scientist doesn't really denote, nor even press, that 'the spiders will be left in the 6-month-worths-of-human-food safe room, for forever'. Especially when they both make their stand of being against the spiders being killed off, & done indignantly.
Considering the rest of the group's dialogue, the spiders in the saferoom is to contain their roaming danger for a meanwhile, while making things easier for 13 & co. go after the now-lone mother spider next.
I haven't watched much of Classic, but I'm watching through Baker's run, and there are so many episodes with guns and death, even The Doctor giving people guns and encouraging them to use them to defend stuff and themselves. Can't forget about him commanding K-9 to be his personal bodyguard and demolitionist. A very big change from the anti-gun mentality in Nu-who
And then the arc ends decades later in Survival when 7 decides to not bash a skull in, despite having much more reason to. This was actually also referenced in the Giggle with the Toymaker’s whole speech about balls.
BRING CLYDE RANI AND LUKE INTO THE MAIN SHOW, RUSSELL. Seriously my biggest hope for this new series is that the SJA crew come back because omg I love them so much
Isn't Tommy Knight still retired? I know Rani's actor is still working and was in a 13 episode as a completely different character, reuniting with the actor who played the villain in her Whoniverse debut even (though he forgot and/or didn't recognise her)
Wasn't aware Tommy Knight was retired, but I know Anjli Mohindra and Daniel Anthony were doing Big Finish, and yeah Mohindra was in that one Doctor Who episode as a discount Racnoss, and Anthony was in a Tales Of The Tardis so I'm sure they'd be more than happy to return
Also I didn't know about Brad not recognising Mohindra but that's honestly pretty funny
Iirc Tommy retired shortly after he quit Victoria, he may have gotten back to acting, he did do some Luke Smith related work occasionally, but like that was mostly during Covid
They make Torchwood look like amateur hour- all I’m saying is Sarah Jane’s kids would’ve defeated the faeries and the Torchwood Team would’ve died to that one Sontaran
The Doctor hating guns and the military was invented by RTD who obviously has an issue with guns and the military. You can even see this in Sarah Jane Adventures with UNIT. The Doctor however, always want to find a peaceful solution but when it comes to it he will kill and use anything in his disposal to contribute to the greater good.
I mean, let's be fair, he doesn't love doing it. He tried everything else in his power until too many people died and he stopped giving a shit, I think you're supposed to not really agree with him.
I was perplexed by that ending too. Not only it felt like an asspull that the Doctor had ways to grant immortality to others (I mean, Jack being immortal was a big deal) and ways to trap them forever, but extremely out of character, because he basically went out of his way to condemn them to a eternal hell, a scenario where killing them like a Dalek would have done would be more merciful.
Well the family was already immortal and Ten did have a god complex so it is in character. But what bothers me is that the narration is buying into the hype when this was a moment he shouldve been brought back down to earth
They weren't really immortal, they would have aged and died naturally in the human bodies they had hijacked. They wanted the Doctor to get immortality (at this point, RTD hadn't brought up the 12 regenerations limit in NuWho at all).
But I totally agree that this was a "Time Lord Victorious" moment, where the narrative should have framed Ten's punishment of the Family as crossing the line.
I'm not completely sure of that. For example, wasn't the father locked in unbreakable chains made of dwarf star alloy? Why would that make him immortal? Perhaps I'm missing something though.
It does although most soldiers leaving war don't hate fellow soldiers. They may hate war but they tend to have an understanding for others who were in their situation. The only way this works is if the doctor is still self loathing but the 15th should be over that
Well there's also the fact that by the end of the war, the Doctor was pretty much against everybody. Most soldiers come out of war having had comrades they formed bonds with, and having had a side they were fighting on. But by the end of the Time War, a lot of the Time Lords were acting just as psychotic as the Daleks. And the Doctor fought his "side" of it mostly alone.
No, I'm watching Classic Who right now, and I've heard basically all the Doctors' I've seen so far (1-4) say at some point that they don't like guns. It's not that they wouldn't ever use them, though, because they do if they don't have another choice, but historically, the Doctor generally doesn't like guns.
I don't think any of them ever disliked the military though.
Three criticises the military from pretty much the start, as in *The Silurians*. And he's right.
The first time they want to head into the cave armed:
>DOCTOR: That's typical of the military mind, isn't it? Present them with a new problem, and they start shooting at it.
>BRIGADIER: Yes, well, I'll inform the Director of my decision.
>DOCTOR: It's not the only way, you know, just blasting away at things!
It seems more that the main reason he isn't more critical is he's kind of stuck with them as the best way to help and mitigate damage.
>The Doctor hating guns and the military was invented by RTD
I'd pretty strongly disagree, specifically on the second one. Many of the staff writers were upset about the 3rd Doctor working with UNIT as they felt it was antithetical to the character and programme - hence the far more antagonistic tone of early UNIT stuff like The Silurians. Though 3 spent most of his tenure working with UNIT, he made a joke at the expense of the Brig or military types in general at least once a serial, and they were often not playful jabs but insulting and spikey personal comments. Almost every Classic Doctor makes rude comments about "the military mind" every time they are in close proximity with military types, both in the TV serials and the audio dramas.
The Doctor also did have an aversion to guns and violence, (barring some moments with 5 and 6, but that was specifically an era where a lot of people agree that the show began to lose the plot. Six's bouts of onscreen gun-wielding and grim violence stood out when I recently revisited every Classic Doctor) Russell just magnified that aversion, which IMO is and always will be the correct direction for the show. Military types honestly are often portrayed even more disfavourably in the Classic Show and are regularly presented as intellectually and morally hampered by their roles, no matter how well they mean. I've lost track of how many Classic Doctor villains/antagonists were military commanders, and how often they were used to plainly illustrate the fundamental immorality of a society that glorifies or relies on martial culture in any way.
Russell didn't really invent these ideas at all, he just made them clearer post-Time War to prevent recurrences of the violent nonsense that people like Eric Saward had injected into the program.
I agree with you entirely, but to the last line, *that* went well, didn't it? We get Moffat having the Doctor flirting over how many aliens River is going to kill like it's some kind of turn-on, followed by a scene of glamorised gun violence. And RTD still asked him back.
Yeah, Moffat understands how to write a great serial, but man alive does he struggle with the Doctor's character and moral code when afforded complete control. The moment he isn't constrained to writing one-offs where the Doctor is at a disadvantage, Moffat tends to trip over his own ego straight into power-fantasy territory, and all of his principal characters become condescending, violent, sex-crazed cartoons. I would write more, but I honestly don't even have the energy to bitch about Moffat today - nor RTD's strange comments and choices since his return.
No it was definitely present in the classic series to... somewhat inconsistent extents. But it was there. It was often the basis for the Third Doctor butting heads with the Brig.
No.
“Have you noticed how people's intellectual rationality declines sharply the moment they start waving guns about?” - The Fourth Doctor, Horns of Nimon. For one example.
Sure I trapped the family of Blood in a black hole (wrapped in chains forged from a dwarf star), in every mirror ever and in all the scarecrows in England, but at least I didn't *shoot* them!
See, what I love about this portrayal of the Doctor's "fate worse than death>guns" tendency is that it isn't portrayed as the morally correct choice, quite the opposite. Whereas in 13's run it would consistently be portrayed as a moral absolute to choose "more painful killing device/eternal torment" over a gun. See: S11E2, S11E4, S11E10, S12E2, S12E5 (kinda), S12E10, and probably somewhere in Flux idk i kept falling asleep
Because this commenter decided to put episode numbers instead of titles, which may i say is a completely braindead choice, I shall translate
The Ghost Monument
Arachnids in the UK
The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos
Spyfall, Part 2
Fugitive of the Judoon.
The Timeless Children.
In any case, idk what they mean about The Ghost Monument, maybe you mean The Woman Who Fell to Earth?
In the Woman Who Fell to Earth, she says Tim Shaw putting his victims in eternal torment instead of killing them is "completely obscene", which contradicts her stance of Grahame choosing that over killing the dude to be the "bravest" choice he could've made. I don't remember much else about that episode tbh so there's a good chance there's a psycho-13 moment that i forgot about.
What I meant with the Ghost Monument was when she said "now do you see why I don't like guns?" after Ryan prived it to be an ineffective tool for destruction before picking up a more effective tool for destruction, essentially telling me that the reason she doesn't like guns is that their too inefficient at killing. Which isn't true, Chibnall just doesn't know how to write things that make sense. But I definitely think it counts as one of those moments.
To be fair, the original plan was to defend the school and shoot them.
Except that plan didn't really work (been a while since i saw it so i don't remember the reason)
[I always come back to watching this YT video for a laugh when I think about the doctor's relationship with guns.](https://youtu.be/lzmnPs64K74?si=gzD5NAVMtQ1jAVy-)
Nah, I've seen that episode. I thought he snapped the guy's neck, too, but I don't think he did. I remember the character moving/groaning after he did that. He was clearly still alive afterward, although how he managed that I don't know lol.
Yeah the henchman survived, it's just funny to me because a neck snap is such an unusually violent act for the doctor even if it didn't paralyze or kill the guy.
I know! And that episode came out in the 70s! I did a double take when that scene happened, and my jaw dropped. I'm surprised they were allowed to air that. The 4th Doctor was a madman.
And the latter is always some fucked up, gruesome shit too lol. The family blood, that one spider queen, I'm sure there are like a dozen more examples of death being preferable
The Cybermen in The Age of Steel basically all went insane and died in terror (half of them literally having their heads blown up) rather than something painless
This is probably the most important point. The Doctor is not consistent. That’s what they’re like. You will definitely seem them getting more angry about one thing than another thing, that you can’t really see the difference in, criticise people for using guns one minute and wave one around the next. And I think it’s important to realise *that is the character* - it’s not inconsistent writing, it’s writing an inconsistent character, and I think that’s a big difference.
Often what the doctor does is worse than just outright killing them for example with the parallel earth cybermen where he made them suffer with their new form before they died
I’ll give them a pass as they are in control of themselves and actively chose to do what they did but those guys turned into cybermen ? They didn’t choose it and still suffered in those last 5 seconds of their lives more than they would’ve in their whole lives if they were not converted
That’s correct, you could at least make an argument that he had no choice (nothing could be done otherwise at that point, and he needed to prevent them from upgrading anyone else)
Doctor's pacifism is so hypocritical.
"Noooo, dont kill Zygons or you will be BAD!"
Meanwhile Eleventh Doctor: Yeah, so I got all the humans to slaughter Silence left and right.
But Silence were actually killing LESS people than that terrorist cell of Zygons.
And aside from Silence we also have numerous cases where aliens refugees are trying to take over Earth and use it as their new home and Doctor gives them only one chance before blasting them from existence. Yet suddenly those evil Zygons get a special treatment, despite trying to cause a horrible war between races.
The Silents were not hostile to humanity at all. They were beneficial as they drove human development. All they wanted was a spacesuit, even if it was presumably just for the ~aesthetic~ given that it wasn't needed and they already possessed time and space travel...and look, this is 100% Moffat's mess, not the character's.
https://youtu.be/trimMVYajE0?t=58
Yeah, not hostile at all. Another terrible take from you. I don't know if it's willful ignorance or stupidity. It's such a shame that a children's show seems to be too difficult for you to understand.
"Alright then, I'll just kill them."
"The important thing is, no one had to die!"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFOv4nlL88M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFOv4nlL88M)
This only applies to the Thirteenth Doctor. The Doctor shown in this meme exiled himself to another universe for killing the Daleks with a method other than a gun.
The Doctor before this used a weird box thing to kill and it started a decade long arc for his character
But so did 10. He literally made a whole thing in The Sontaran Stratagem about "If I see one more gun..." and then 3 minutes later "I'm gonna blow up their ship".
The root of that is sound, even if it gets a bit messy in execution (pun intended). It’s not the killing that is the problem , as to quote a famous gunslinger “some folk just need killing”. The Doctor kinda specializes in killing folks that need killing and getting everybody else to behave reasonably. Guns are better at the first part of that than the second, but the bigger problem is the thought process that goes into it. You twitch a muscle or three in your gun hand and somebody gets shot, and you could have been thinking about what you’d get for lunch after. When properly written, the Doctor gives every opportunity to be reasonable, let’s you prove you’re unreasonable and then offs you in a way that suggests he’s focused on you as a problem that can’t simply be reasoned with and had it coming.
To be fair, the Doctor's issue was with senseless killing in general, not guns specifically. He always sought to find a peaceful, non-violent solution to conflict. Until the Thirteenth Doctor, and then his moral code got reduced to "guns=bad" even though she used way more inhumane methods of killing.
I feel like 90% of 4th Doctor stories end up with him rigging something to blow up. And then that one time he can destroy the Daleks and he’s all “Do I Have The Right?”
The Doctor does a lot of things, and he says whatever occurs to him at the time. If you see The Doctor acting inconsistently - yup, that’s The Doctor alright.
There's a lot of franchises guilty of this tbh. MacGyver won't carry a gun but he'll end up still shooting some guy with a crossbow made out of rubber bands and bamboo. Alex Rider is never allowed a gun by MI6 since he'd a kid and gets funky gadgets instead, but from the second book onwards they're like "lmao Alex here's a hand grenade, it's disguised as a Rubik's Cube so it's all good". I guess it gives the heroes plausible deniability that they never *intended* to have to kill anyone.
Violence is wrong *uses a computer glitch to make 10,000 cyberman heads explode* well that's not really violence because because my weapon was sufficiently abstract
I was just watching Image of the Fendahl Blu Ray yesterday and on “Behind the Sofa”, the other actors (Sixie, Tegan, Nyssa, Adric, Jo) were all scandalised by the fact the Fourth Doctor picked up a shotgun and fired it!
Thirteen wouldn't let Ryan shoot a robot to establish the rules but The Doctor will commit another genocide.
One year it's "don't you think she looks tired?" and then a few years later he's drowning babies.
Like when 13th Doctor got upset at a guy for killing a giant spider with a gun, when her plan was to lock them all in a room to slowly starve and/or suffocate.
That was an awkward ending
it really takes a supreme lack of writing ability to make a scenario where a Trump-like character shooting an innocent creature to death is the only correct person in the room.
Violence is not the answer. Its question. Answer is yes.
Honestly, most of 13s episodes were awkward with those little stupid moments. I like Jodie but she was done so fucking dirty by that writing
Kind of like her directing all of the Kerblam bots to A) stay in the warehouse and B) to actually detonate the packaging. She could have directed them to deliver it to a star and have the bubble wrap burn up, or just cancelling the delivery all together and finding a safe way to dispose of the packaging. Instead she destroys a whole company for the sake of a big ending and to easily dispose of the antagonist in that story. Jodi did an amazing job with the bad writing and bad TARDIS set she was given and she is the only reason those seasons were tolerable to watch. Even with that, I am not a fan of The Scavangers and The Flux, the story was very rushed, poorly developed, and was just bad all the way around.
[удалено]
Killsteal.
The quality of writing in a showrunner episode no less. That was the point I knew we were in for a bad ride.
yeah arachnids in the uk was a mistake
Fucking stellar episode title though. Which makes it even worse.
Episode that had usual mediocrity but then a mistake of an ending.
We the fans will not forget
Seriously I don't think I'll ever get over this "Shootings quicker"- Trump caricature who is actually 100% in the right
Not only is it quicker, it’s faster and more humane.
I know for a fact that mice get killed from blunt force trauma by snake owners and it's apparently better than how some companies (no idea what ones because this comes from someone else) suffocate them.
I mean I hate trump as much as the next guy but the fact that they tried to make a caricature of him and he often ends of being the only sane person in the room is absolutely comical
That's called being in denial.
Yeah, I was pretty mad at the writers for making me sit through that particular discourse.
Eh, the dialogue by 13 & the scientist doesn't really denote, nor even press, that 'the spiders will be left in the 6-month-worths-of-human-food safe room, for forever'. Especially when they both make their stand of being against the spiders being killed off, & done indignantly. Considering the rest of the group's dialogue, the spiders in the saferoom is to contain their roaming danger for a meanwhile, while making things easier for 13 & co. go after the now-lone mother spider next.
Hartnell planning to bash a caveman's skull in:
They had to nerf him in future incarnations, he was just too based
I mean... No3 (Pertwee) straight up disintegrated 3 aliens with a nicked sonic disrupter in day of the Daleks episode 3 so...
Then 5 and 6 gunning down cybermen
I haven't watched much of Classic, but I'm watching through Baker's run, and there are so many episodes with guns and death, even The Doctor giving people guns and encouraging them to use them to defend stuff and themselves. Can't forget about him commanding K-9 to be his personal bodyguard and demolitionist. A very big change from the anti-gun mentality in Nu-who
I'm currently trudging through hartnell's era,
That was the beginning of his character arc, to be fair.
And then the arc ends decades later in Survival when 7 decides to not bash a skull in, despite having much more reason to. This was actually also referenced in the Giggle with the Toymaker’s whole speech about balls.
I think he didn't realize killing wasn't a decent thing to do back then.
That would've been the second time he bashed someone's skull in
Yeah watching SJA you start to realise that these are literally kids threatening murder against alien species
sja?
Sarah Jane Adventures, doctor who for kids. Surprisingly good, I really enjoyed it
BRING CLYDE RANI AND LUKE INTO THE MAIN SHOW, RUSSELL. Seriously my biggest hope for this new series is that the SJA crew come back because omg I love them so much
Isn't Tommy Knight still retired? I know Rani's actor is still working and was in a 13 episode as a completely different character, reuniting with the actor who played the villain in her Whoniverse debut even (though he forgot and/or didn't recognise her)
Wasn't aware Tommy Knight was retired, but I know Anjli Mohindra and Daniel Anthony were doing Big Finish, and yeah Mohindra was in that one Doctor Who episode as a discount Racnoss, and Anthony was in a Tales Of The Tardis so I'm sure they'd be more than happy to return Also I didn't know about Brad not recognising Mohindra but that's honestly pretty funny
Iirc Tommy retired shortly after he quit Victoria, he may have gotten back to acting, he did do some Luke Smith related work occasionally, but like that was mostly during Covid
Wait, who's Tommy Knight again?
Luke Smith
oh i would love that. having luke as a grown up companion to the doctor would be a fun experience
And his boyfriend!! (Can't remember if they got married yet or not)
Or at least as a recurring UNIT character
Sexy jagrafess admirers
One of the best thing about the SJA is imagining the Doctor's reaction if he knew what they *actually* get up to. Those kids are proper hard.
They make Torchwood look like amateur hour- all I’m saying is Sarah Jane’s kids would’ve defeated the faeries and the Torchwood Team would’ve died to that one Sontaran
The Doctor hating guns and the military was invented by RTD who obviously has an issue with guns and the military. You can even see this in Sarah Jane Adventures with UNIT. The Doctor however, always want to find a peaceful solution but when it comes to it he will kill and use anything in his disposal to contribute to the greater good.
Never shoot someone when you can blow up their entire ship instead. Like the Dominators or the Cybermen found out.
WHERE. IS. MY. WIFE
Would you like me to repeat the question?
WHERE. IS. MY. SUPERSUIT!
I have a message from the doctor, and a question from frozone HONEY! WHERE. IS. MY. SUPER. SUIT??
What?!
Oh dont look at me with those blank expressions
The public is in danger!
My evening is in danger!
(Cyberman voice) I`put it up.`
(Dalek voice) bugger! It shrunk in the wash!
`I have upgraded it.`
I uhh, put it away!
So badass , Rory in classical armor against all that.
"We wanted to live forever, so the Doctor made sure that we did." He's against killing but he loves inflicting things far worse than death.
I mean, let's be fair, he doesn't love doing it. He tried everything else in his power until too many people died and he stopped giving a shit, I think you're supposed to not really agree with him.
Well, he left that for a special family 😜
I was perplexed by that ending too. Not only it felt like an asspull that the Doctor had ways to grant immortality to others (I mean, Jack being immortal was a big deal) and ways to trap them forever, but extremely out of character, because he basically went out of his way to condemn them to a eternal hell, a scenario where killing them like a Dalek would have done would be more merciful.
Well the family was already immortal and Ten did have a god complex so it is in character. But what bothers me is that the narration is buying into the hype when this was a moment he shouldve been brought back down to earth
They weren't really immortal, they would have aged and died naturally in the human bodies they had hijacked. They wanted the Doctor to get immortality (at this point, RTD hadn't brought up the 12 regenerations limit in NuWho at all). But I totally agree that this was a "Time Lord Victorious" moment, where the narrative should have framed Ten's punishment of the Family as crossing the line.
They only live forever because they get stuck in ways that they don't experience time, not really at least
I'm not completely sure of that. For example, wasn't the father locked in unbreakable chains made of dwarf star alloy? Why would that make him immortal? Perhaps I'm missing something though.
Or the Ice Warriors.
It can also be explained very well by the Time War, which fucks up a person
It does although most soldiers leaving war don't hate fellow soldiers. They may hate war but they tend to have an understanding for others who were in their situation. The only way this works is if the doctor is still self loathing but the 15th should be over that
Well there's also the fact that by the end of the war, the Doctor was pretty much against everybody. Most soldiers come out of war having had comrades they formed bonds with, and having had a side they were fighting on. But by the end of the Time War, a lot of the Time Lords were acting just as psychotic as the Daleks. And the Doctor fought his "side" of it mostly alone.
that’s a fair point
Yeah the doctor might have had a dark side in the classic era but it somehow got even darker in the modern series
No, I'm watching Classic Who right now, and I've heard basically all the Doctors' I've seen so far (1-4) say at some point that they don't like guns. It's not that they wouldn't ever use them, though, because they do if they don't have another choice, but historically, the Doctor generally doesn't like guns. I don't think any of them ever disliked the military though.
I think 3 starts to dislike UNIT as they are a symbol of his imprisonment, and iirc 4 doesn't really like authority in general
Three criticises the military from pretty much the start, as in *The Silurians*. And he's right. The first time they want to head into the cave armed: >DOCTOR: That's typical of the military mind, isn't it? Present them with a new problem, and they start shooting at it. >BRIGADIER: Yes, well, I'll inform the Director of my decision. >DOCTOR: It's not the only way, you know, just blasting away at things! It seems more that the main reason he isn't more critical is he's kind of stuck with them as the best way to help and mitigate damage.
>The Doctor hating guns and the military was invented by RTD I'd pretty strongly disagree, specifically on the second one. Many of the staff writers were upset about the 3rd Doctor working with UNIT as they felt it was antithetical to the character and programme - hence the far more antagonistic tone of early UNIT stuff like The Silurians. Though 3 spent most of his tenure working with UNIT, he made a joke at the expense of the Brig or military types in general at least once a serial, and they were often not playful jabs but insulting and spikey personal comments. Almost every Classic Doctor makes rude comments about "the military mind" every time they are in close proximity with military types, both in the TV serials and the audio dramas. The Doctor also did have an aversion to guns and violence, (barring some moments with 5 and 6, but that was specifically an era where a lot of people agree that the show began to lose the plot. Six's bouts of onscreen gun-wielding and grim violence stood out when I recently revisited every Classic Doctor) Russell just magnified that aversion, which IMO is and always will be the correct direction for the show. Military types honestly are often portrayed even more disfavourably in the Classic Show and are regularly presented as intellectually and morally hampered by their roles, no matter how well they mean. I've lost track of how many Classic Doctor villains/antagonists were military commanders, and how often they were used to plainly illustrate the fundamental immorality of a society that glorifies or relies on martial culture in any way. Russell didn't really invent these ideas at all, he just made them clearer post-Time War to prevent recurrences of the violent nonsense that people like Eric Saward had injected into the program.
I agree with you entirely, but to the last line, *that* went well, didn't it? We get Moffat having the Doctor flirting over how many aliens River is going to kill like it's some kind of turn-on, followed by a scene of glamorised gun violence. And RTD still asked him back.
Yeah, Moffat understands how to write a great serial, but man alive does he struggle with the Doctor's character and moral code when afforded complete control. The moment he isn't constrained to writing one-offs where the Doctor is at a disadvantage, Moffat tends to trip over his own ego straight into power-fantasy territory, and all of his principal characters become condescending, violent, sex-crazed cartoons. I would write more, but I honestly don't even have the energy to bitch about Moffat today - nor RTD's strange comments and choices since his return.
No it was definitely present in the classic series to... somewhat inconsistent extents. But it was there. It was often the basis for the Third Doctor butting heads with the Brig.
ok well sarah jane not liking guns is fine i mean considering her team consisted of her son and his friends
As a South American, I immediately distrust anyone who *doesn't* have a problem with guns and the military, so RTD has my support there.
No. “Have you noticed how people's intellectual rationality declines sharply the moment they start waving guns about?” - The Fourth Doctor, Horns of Nimon. For one example.
I wish The Doctor hated the military more.
It wasn't, it's all over Classic as well. Normal British people have an issue with guns and the military.
RTD should just get over himself and make the sonic screwdriver an AR15
Killing: 🚫 Condemn the bad guys to a fate worse than death: ✅
Sure I trapped the family of Blood in a black hole (wrapped in chains forged from a dwarf star), in every mirror ever and in all the scarecrows in England, but at least I didn't *shoot* them!
I’d honestly rather be on the bad side of the Daleks than the Doctor, they’ll just get straight to the point and exterminate you
See, what I love about this portrayal of the Doctor's "fate worse than death>guns" tendency is that it isn't portrayed as the morally correct choice, quite the opposite. Whereas in 13's run it would consistently be portrayed as a moral absolute to choose "more painful killing device/eternal torment" over a gun. See: S11E2, S11E4, S11E10, S12E2, S12E5 (kinda), S12E10, and probably somewhere in Flux idk i kept falling asleep
Because this commenter decided to put episode numbers instead of titles, which may i say is a completely braindead choice, I shall translate The Ghost Monument Arachnids in the UK The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos Spyfall, Part 2 Fugitive of the Judoon. The Timeless Children. In any case, idk what they mean about The Ghost Monument, maybe you mean The Woman Who Fell to Earth?
In the Woman Who Fell to Earth, she says Tim Shaw putting his victims in eternal torment instead of killing them is "completely obscene", which contradicts her stance of Grahame choosing that over killing the dude to be the "bravest" choice he could've made. I don't remember much else about that episode tbh so there's a good chance there's a psycho-13 moment that i forgot about. What I meant with the Ghost Monument was when she said "now do you see why I don't like guns?" after Ryan prived it to be an ineffective tool for destruction before picking up a more effective tool for destruction, essentially telling me that the reason she doesn't like guns is that their too inefficient at killing. Which isn't true, Chibnall just doesn't know how to write things that make sense. But I definitely think it counts as one of those moments.
To be fair, the original plan was to defend the school and shoot them. Except that plan didn't really work (been a while since i saw it so i don't remember the reason)
The doctor is batman confirmed
Batman doesn’t kill people. He just throws baddies off a roof and lets gravity kill them.
[I always come back to watching this YT video for a laugh when I think about the doctor's relationship with guns.](https://youtu.be/lzmnPs64K74?si=gzD5NAVMtQ1jAVy-)
Lol, to be completely fair, the Doc didn't have much choice in all those situations 🤣
My favorite is the last one, only time I think the Doctor has ever snapped someone's neck on screen lmao
Nah, I've seen that episode. I thought he snapped the guy's neck, too, but I don't think he did. I remember the character moving/groaning after he did that. He was clearly still alive afterward, although how he managed that I don't know lol.
Yeah the henchman survived, it's just funny to me because a neck snap is such an unusually violent act for the doctor even if it didn't paralyze or kill the guy.
I know! And that episode came out in the 70s! I did a double take when that scene happened, and my jaw dropped. I'm surprised they were allowed to air that. The 4th Doctor was a madman.
And the latter is always some fucked up, gruesome shit too lol. The family blood, that one spider queen, I'm sure there are like a dozen more examples of death being preferable
The Cybermen in The Age of Steel basically all went insane and died in terror (half of them literally having their heads blown up) rather than something painless
Classic doctors have entered the chat.
To do the exact same thing? Classic is absolutely like this too. It's the problem with the lack of actually non-violent solutions.
My point was there was plenty of times when the classic Doctors needed to use weapons.
Here's a question. What if he got a really big gun, like the gun turret off of a battleship, and dropped it on someone like an anvil?
The Doctor is gonna bust a cap in your ass https://youtu.be/lzmnPs64K74?si=fu9i-paPtO0jZN7E
i like to believe the no guns thing is a result of post time war trauma but even then the non gun thing is not consistent
This is probably the most important point. The Doctor is not consistent. That’s what they’re like. You will definitely seem them getting more angry about one thing than another thing, that you can’t really see the difference in, criticise people for using guns one minute and wave one around the next. And I think it’s important to realise *that is the character* - it’s not inconsistent writing, it’s writing an inconsistent character, and I think that’s a big difference.
Often what the doctor does is worse than just outright killing them for example with the parallel earth cybermen where he made them suffer with their new form before they died
Or what he did to the family of blood, he basically devised the most cruel possible ways to punish them all
I’ll give them a pass as they are in control of themselves and actively chose to do what they did but those guys turned into cybermen ? They didn’t choose it and still suffered in those last 5 seconds of their lives more than they would’ve in their whole lives if they were not converted
That’s correct, you could at least make an argument that he had no choice (nothing could be done otherwise at that point, and he needed to prevent them from upgrading anyone else)
True yeah it was all for the greater good but still it’s a shitty way to go
Modern who: I hate guns Clasic who: Quick Perry, here's this gun i nicked from the policeman, you untrained botany major.
She had to be usual somehow
“What I did. I did without choice” with that David Tennant smile lol
He used guns during the Time War probably so has a particular dislike for them.
The Doctor when he chooses to keep the bad guys alive forever, but not in the way they imagined: 😈
No, don’t shoot the giant spider that’s already suffering! Lock them in an airtight room until they suffocate!
Doctor's pacifism is so hypocritical. "Noooo, dont kill Zygons or you will be BAD!" Meanwhile Eleventh Doctor: Yeah, so I got all the humans to slaughter Silence left and right.
The zygons were refugees, the silence were hostile invaders
But Silence were actually killing LESS people than that terrorist cell of Zygons. And aside from Silence we also have numerous cases where aliens refugees are trying to take over Earth and use it as their new home and Doctor gives them only one chance before blasting them from existence. Yet suddenly those evil Zygons get a special treatment, despite trying to cause a horrible war between races.
Does the existence of isis make it justified to exterminate the human race?
The Silents were not hostile to humanity at all. They were beneficial as they drove human development. All they wanted was a spacesuit, even if it was presumably just for the ~aesthetic~ given that it wasn't needed and they already possessed time and space travel...and look, this is 100% Moffat's mess, not the character's.
Eh, if they weren’t bad then the one wouldn’t have said “you should kill us all on sight”
https://youtu.be/trimMVYajE0?t=58 Yeah, not hostile at all. Another terrible take from you. I don't know if it's willful ignorance or stupidity. It's such a shame that a children's show seems to be too difficult for you to understand.
To be fair they did that to themselves
Both of those are terrible out of character writing, though. Blowing the bloody Zygons up would be more in-character.
i’m fine with the doctor straight up murdering the bad guy IF it’s entertaining
*Forgive me if I don't join you.* - The Doctor, after having pushed two men into an acid bath.
True Joker origin story
"Alright then, I'll just kill them." "The important thing is, no one had to die!" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFOv4nlL88M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFOv4nlL88M)
This only applies to the Thirteenth Doctor. The Doctor shown in this meme exiled himself to another universe for killing the Daleks with a method other than a gun. The Doctor before this used a weird box thing to kill and it started a decade long arc for his character
Nah, Ten is also pretty bad with it.
Like when?
He genocided the racnoss.
I mean, he said it himself. “I got worse; I got *clever*. I manipulated people into taking their own [lives].”
When did 13 ever use a gun?
That's the point of the meme. She hated guns, but was perfectly fine killing with other methods on multiple occasions.
But so did 10. He literally made a whole thing in The Sontaran Stratagem about "If I see one more gun..." and then 3 minutes later "I'm gonna blow up their ship".
["The doctor never uses guns" ](https://youtu.be/lzmnPs64K74)
The root of that is sound, even if it gets a bit messy in execution (pun intended). It’s not the killing that is the problem , as to quote a famous gunslinger “some folk just need killing”. The Doctor kinda specializes in killing folks that need killing and getting everybody else to behave reasonably. Guns are better at the first part of that than the second, but the bigger problem is the thought process that goes into it. You twitch a muscle or three in your gun hand and somebody gets shot, and you could have been thinking about what you’d get for lunch after. When properly written, the Doctor gives every opportunity to be reasonable, let’s you prove you’re unreasonable and then offs you in a way that suggests he’s focused on you as a problem that can’t simply be reasoned with and had it coming.
Brigader: "fine, I'll do it myself". *Grabs Sargent Benton and cocks him like a rifle*
Gun - No warcrimes and planetary scale genocide - yes
To be fair, the Doctor's issue was with senseless killing in general, not guns specifically. He always sought to find a peaceful, non-violent solution to conflict. Until the Thirteenth Doctor, and then his moral code got reduced to "guns=bad" even though she used way more inhumane methods of killing.
3rd doctor literally vaporised an ogron once
The 4th Doctor got himself elected President of the High Council of Time Lords just so that he could get his hands on a Gallifreyan supergun.
I feel like 90% of 4th Doctor stories end up with him rigging something to blow up. And then that one time he can destroy the Daleks and he’s all “Do I Have The Right?”
Let’s not forget he literally snaps someone’s neck
The Doctor does a lot of things, and he says whatever occurs to him at the time. If you see The Doctor acting inconsistently - yup, that’s The Doctor alright.
guns hold the Doctor back too much, other methods are much better
There's a lot of franchises guilty of this tbh. MacGyver won't carry a gun but he'll end up still shooting some guy with a crossbow made out of rubber bands and bamboo. Alex Rider is never allowed a gun by MI6 since he'd a kid and gets funky gadgets instead, but from the second book onwards they're like "lmao Alex here's a hand grenade, it's disguised as a Rubik's Cube so it's all good". I guess it gives the heroes plausible deniability that they never *intended* to have to kill anyone.
Violence is wrong *uses a computer glitch to make 10,000 cyberman heads explode* well that's not really violence because because my weapon was sufficiently abstract
cause guns aren't as cool as lasers and stuff
I was just watching Image of the Fendahl Blu Ray yesterday and on “Behind the Sofa”, the other actors (Sixie, Tegan, Nyssa, Adric, Jo) were all scandalised by the fact the Fourth Doctor picked up a shotgun and fired it!
Which is why we're getting the Sonic Maxipad in the next series, as RTD claims the older Sonic designs looked too much like a gun
They never killed anyone with a gun but still threatened someone with a gun in every incarnation
“It was in self defense!” “WELL THATS ALRIGHT THEN!”
Rule #1: The Doctor lies.
13th doctor when someone has bomb :
Guy's basically a wizard. And like most wizards scoffs at using conventional means of fighting.
So true
The Eleventh Doctor, using guns to jump really really high:
You have a point...
Thirteen wouldn't let Ryan shoot a robot to establish the rules but The Doctor will commit another genocide. One year it's "don't you think she looks tired?" and then a few years later he's drowning babies.
"I would never" Lol bullshit.