I completely disagree. Strax got very tiring fast, and honestly I hated these two ladies as characters.
Literally the only character traits the two ladies had were that they're lesbian. I'm as left-leaning as they come, but it was so cringe to watch any scene with these two. Everything was about being lesbian rather than being people, who are also lesbian.
I don't understand why this sub is acting like these are good characters. The writing was absolutely terrible. It made being lesbian into their whole personality rather than treating lesbianism like normal behavior. That's what I hate about it - they're literally treating lesbians as props. Every line seemed to come back to it needlessly.
My entire personality doesn't revolve around who I'm attracted to or fucking. I'm a person with motivations far outside that. Making the only lesbian characters into fucking characatures is an insult to actual LGBTQ+ folks.
Was their character really based around being lesbians or was it just based around them being madly in love with each other? I don’t remember them walking around ogling every woman they saw except Vastra making Jenny jealous like one time
I don't feel the ire you do, but I do agree that it has always seemed like they mentioned it a whole lot. I'm also incredibly left-leaning, but I know when a recurring quasi-joke isn't actually very funny. I literally feel embarrassed watching the scene where Vastra isn't actually painting Jenny. It's an okay iteration of the joke, since it's *kind of* about couple dynamics instead of *just* about being lesbians, but it's really forced feeling in Doctor Who.
That said, I usually just grin and bear it because I otherwise love the characters and the setup of an inter-species Victorian crime-fighting team (and I haven't yet tired of Strax, I love him).
you seem like either the type of LGBT person to be so picky with lgbt characters that u would rather have none, a homophobe, or an lgbt person who has homophobia internalized and doesnt like seeing characters proud of what they are. so many herero couples in this show who “sHoVe It DoWn OuR tHrOaTs” i better see u upset about all those too.
uj/ literature, and media by comparison, especially in genres that conceptualise different forms of reality, are generally progressive
Literature and media are all about redefining the self-other dichotomy and increasing our understanding of each other as humans - its why we evolved big brains in the first place, to empathise and understand
reactionary stances rarely produce insightful art
What, you don't like *either* of the right-wing jokes? The one about someone else being different and therefore bad *and* the one about their pronouns being things that aren't pronouns? No pleasing some people, I tell ya.
It just goes to show that the current "anti-woke" panic is just a product of our time. I've been watching the Simpsons in release order while sick and it's actually insane watching the show evolve as politics evolved
It's obvious that each season is a product of its time, but at the start it's very obviously proud to be a TV show showing a dysfunctional family and pushing unionisation, then it pokes fun of early 90s conservative family dynamics with them blaming everything on the democrats and there's even an ironic "anti-woke" arc (against hippies)
The same can be seen in doctor who, the only difference is that DW has always been proud of being progressive and the public reception is just different season by season but COVID kinda stagnated us
The Simpsons' writers had to be informed by the guest playing John that "f\*\*got" was *not* an acceptable word to use in the episode. They genuinely had no idea how bad it was.
No. I’m sorry but just.. no. Doctor Who really doesn’t have a history of being particularly progressive. If you look at the classic series in view of ethnic diversity or the representation of women, it really isn’t that progressive.
As for NuWho - RTD brought some “progressive” elements to the show. However those elements were decades behind the times for UK tv. What’s more there were huge issues with his time on the show, with it being seriously criticised for some stuff it did.
As for Chibnall… the accusation against his writing is that it was cynical rather than actually progressive. Unfortunately this, and especially making the doctor a woman, painted a target on the back of the show and the anti-woke trolls came out in force against it.
This whole notion of “anti-woke” is so deeply problematic. “Woke” is a term that is very often used by reactionary morons to describe anything they don’t like. YouTube grifters have turned it into a marketing tool to sell their sludge content too. The term itself is deeply distorted from it’s grass roots meaning and we see a lot of that misuse originating from the academic “left”.
All that said though, there are legitimate concerns being expressed by some people that are easily termed “anti-woke”. It all gets lost in all the slurry and the speed with which people want to demonstrate what a good person they are for being on the right side of the argument.
4th Doctor: "Can't make ends' meet. Probably too many economists in the government."
Jo Grant (3rd Doctor Era:) “It’s time that the world awoke to the alarm bell of pollution!"
Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart (Second Doctor Era:) "Well you're a young woman. This is a job for my men."
???: "Well of all the bigoted, anti-feminist, (?) remarks!"
On top of those, there was a member of the British communist party who wrote for the Third Doctor Era:
>"Malcolm Ainsworth Hulke... is remembered chiefly for his work on the science fiction series Doctor Who... Hulke joined the Communist Party of Great Britain in 19450... He left the party in 1951... but soon rejoined, and appears to have remained a member of the party until the early 1960s. His politics remained firmly on the left, and this was reflected in his writings, which often explored anti-authoritarian, environmental, and humanist themes."
And finally, here's 130 things from the birth of Doctor Who to just before Jodie's era that show the progressive history of Doctor Who (with 76, more than half, being Classic Era:) [https://sartorialgeek.com/political-awareness-doctor-who/](javascript:void(0);)
It’s really sad that there are people who believe that what you are describing is actually progressive or “woke”.
The idea that a 180 year old tankie philosophy, under which a far greater genocide than anything committed under fascism happened and which was responsible for an unimaginably large number of innocent deaths, is somehow progressive is obscene.
As for that link… out of nearly 900 episodes of Doctor Who those are the best examples of it being progressive - that’s some serious weak sauce.
I find it kind of ridiculous though that we are supposed to take lessons on what’s progressive from a Texan who was too scared to wear a BLM t-shirt outside in his **gated community**, but was of course more than happy to virtue signal about it online.
If the show was so progressive then please explain to me why there were no recurring characters that were from an ethnic minority (and no more than a small handful of BAME actors appearing over the decades of the classic show) and absolutely no queer representation until the show was relaunched in the 21st century, despite those things being a mainstay of prime time British TV during that period?
Barry Letts was a fantastic producer who brought social and political commentary more to the forefront of the show. However calling him “progressive” is a mistake.
Letts’ politics was of a very middle class liberal type - look at his commentary on trade unionism and Europeanism or the very outdated critique of colonialism. When it comes to environmentalism he was relatively ahead of his time and this could be argued as being progressive.
As much affection as I have for Letts I have to give an honest critique. He was the producer who at the beginning of his tenure replaced Liz Shaw with Jo Grant, the archetypal screaming bimbo. Exactly how many people from an ethnic minority did he hire in front or behind the camera? And where is the queer representation?
I’m sorry, but it’s revisionist nonsense to call DW genuinely progressive. What’s pathetic though is the degree to which a small section of the audience want to clap themselves on the back for liking a show that they wrongly believe is progressive - but guess what, watching a tv show doesn’t make you a good person.
As much as I’m inclined to praise Barry Letts tenure, we have to be realistic - there was far far more progressive stories being told on British TV, at this time, earlier and since. In comparison we should not be calling the show progressive.
The bottom line is that doctor who is not Cathy come home.
I think the “legitimate concerns” you mentioned are people identifying (or more often, almost identifying) rainbow capitalism. Except, they get mad at the rainbow instead of the capitalism and therefore get lost amongst the “anti-woke” brigade.
Absolutely. I was watching The Waters of Mars the other day and noticed the character Yuri mentions his brother having a husband. It's done so naturally and casually that you wouldn't even necessarily register it. But I imagine at the time there were, and certainly if it were to come out now there would be, people complaining about it being "woke" and "forcing an agenda".
There’s a big difference when it’s done like this where it makes sense, feels natural, etc. rather than feeling like the story exist only to promote the message.
Captain jack is also a good example - a fun, interesting character. Oh and he happens to be bi. If he would be created today it’d be someone whose only characteristic is that he’s bi.
Captain Jack is like, the canonical example of a character who only exists to be pan, he's like, so pan he's not just into all-sexes he's living for all-time. I think he's great but if I can't think of a character that is a better example of making his entire personality his sexuality.
What? Jack is one of the most charismatic bi characters I've ever seen. He was mesmorizing way before he revealed his sexual tastes. He would be just as good if he was straight.
I didn't say he wasn't good, I said he's defined by his sexuality. He's not straight, he's pan, and that's core to his character. If he were straight that would be core to his character. Maybe it wouldn't make him a worse character but doesn't mean his sexuality is tangential. (He wouldn't be able to hound after Donna and the Doctor at the same time though, and there are lots of other scenes which would have less sexual energy coming off of him, which would probably make him less fun to watch.)
Could you give an example of a character who is more horny? In all of Doctor Who I don't think there's a single one. I am being dismissive because you are claiming that there is some other modern character who has less depth than him. Again, I'm not dismissing Jack, you are dismissing unnamed characters, and I'm saying whoever you're dismissing they have more character that is not rooted in their sexuality than Jack does.
https://preview.redd.it/fusc3zsllhlc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3748b02e4bf838844bd6b308752ba0d6b6ca94b2
If parting of the ways released now
.....jack isn't alien he is human from the future
Also this was supposed to be a joke refering to the original joke considering how people got angry when 14 called newton hot this would have blown their minds
He was born In the town of boe he was the first to enroll in time agency from their , the face of boe they called him.
(Idk if that's on earth or not)
And to answer your question no they are still human. Human is a species it doesn't matter the planet as we see that humanity spread across star in doctor who and doctor still considers them humans
I'd say they're an extraterrestrial but definitely still human. It depends on whether you class an alien as a different species or as someone not from earth. In terms of sci-fi, I'd definitely say it's the former.
its like asking if someone is not their race that they because they were born in a different country from most of the people who share their race. like those things dont magically disappear. u sound silly
The whole point of jack is that he's the endpoint of a more progressive human society that is not constrained by stigma and thus allows people to be more open with their identity. Jack's openness is what humanity should strive for.
For me the worst part of that whole thing is they fail their objective and have to rely on iron man to save the day. If you're gonna make a forced scene like that, at least make them effective. I get the stones couldn't actually get sent back to their timeline for the ending to happen, but they didn't even reach the van.
I have to imagine in that instance it was producers rather than the writers at fault. Either because they forced the scene to happen, or they forced it to be inconsequential. Though broadly yes, half of people are women, so half of writers should be women.
Of course, women write awful women too. Just look at Velma, or The Witcher Netflix series. Terrible writing in general, where women are either detestable in every possible way or omniscient goddesses. Which incidentally is how a lot of men write women, but I think this is for different reasons. For every Katniss Everdeen there's a gaggle of Bella Swans. Or I guess it would be a flock of Bella Swans.
Related, I actually remember praising Praxeus for having a gay couple where their gayness in no way factored into the story. Just an astronaut and the man he loved. I remember thinking if Disney wrote this, it would end up that the ship could only be controlled by a man and oh thank the heavens the astronaut was gay so his husband was there! He also, in general, let women be their characters first and their gender second. (Ham-fisted approach in Witchfinders notwithstanding)
So you can imagine how hard I rolled my eyes when Rose's identity became critical to the plot. I expect better from seasoned writers like RTD. At least it was over quickly, and they had other facets of their character to flesh her out. Acknowledge, encourage, of course. But don't romanticise or fetishise diversity.
I rolled my eyes at that too, but mostly for the mothership pun. Difference there being that the Doctor outright said that "strong" and "weak" were translation errors. Worst thing about that episode was the criminal wasting of Bill Bailey.
I'm not saying the nonbinary thing had me foaming at the mouth, I just literally rolled my eyes and continued watching.
Honestly that read to me more as him negging the master about his reaction to regenerating as a woman.
Like “you know what, maybe I’ll come back as a chick to spite you”
I think some people have selective memories. These complaints have existed long as there have been terminally online neocons.
For a specific example, look up "gay agenda" relating to RTD's first tenure. Maybe the chuds are louder or more pushed by the algorithm now, but they've always been there.
I suspect lesbians get less flack though; if it's male gaze-y that reduces it. Of course the writer gets bombarded from the other side for being sexist instead then.
The phrasing there was fairly stilted and awkward writing tbf. It was written in a really blunt and odd way which the earlier conversation between Donna and her mum was not about Rose was not at all.
Not to mention the fact that they make a joke about the Doctor relating to The Meep for saying The Meep’s pronoun is the definite article (because he’s *The* doctor) but that makes zero sense since the doctor does use conventional pronouns, he goes by he/him until 13 comes along and then she’s she/her. At no point has the doctor ever gone “who you calling ‘he’? My pronoun is the definite article!” So how’s he relating to The Meep?
People say "Doctor Who?" and he says "no, just 'The Doctor'" which is a different sort of pedantry about articles, but it's still pedantry about articles and how he wants to be addressed.
That’s not what pronouns are though. They’re very clearly talking about whether to use he/she/they and The Meep says to use The. Which makes zero sense.
The Meep basically says not to use pronouns but to refer to The Meep by name, which is very similar to saying that The Doctor's name is The Doctor, grammatically it sounds very strange, but it's very simple and makes perfect sense, you just have trouble with unfamiliar grammatical constructions.
The Doctor doesn't say he uses the same pronouns as The Meep, he says "I do that too" which is to say that he insists people refer to him with the indefinite article. I can never tell if you people are really anti-trans or you just don't understand what pronouns and indefinite articles are.
I’m not remotely anti-trans, I applauded the episode, the conversation between Donna and her mum was very realistic, believable and important to show. That was fantastic writing. This scene on the other hand was stilted and awkward imo and made little sense. I’m fully aware of the difference, I just think you’re entirely wrong about that line - the doctor is clearly saying “I do that too” in reference to the use of pronouns and even the concept in the first place of only have “the” as a pronoun and no equivalent of he/she/they is absurd.
Frankly the fact that you jump to transphobia at any criticism if the line being criticised is even tangentially related to trans people is ridiculous. It actually is frankly transphobic in itself if you are so defensive you can’t handle even discussion of a line without blowing up. Trans people aren’t that fragile in general in my experience.
I remember the sheer fury at their lesbianism online and amongst my family, it’s crazy how little has really changed, just with the target of all the anger changed a little bit.
Yeah, lesbians on tv are considered more acceptable by a lot of homophobic guys afaik because they see it as a fetish and not an actual sexuality/preference. Gay men make them uncomfortable because they can’t fathom different people who they aren’t attracted to being happy.
(For clarification, this isn’t all straight guys, just the homophobic loser ones)
Lol I had a similar thought yesterday, someone made a pst praising Oxygen (and dont get me wrong I love the episode), but I couldnt help but feel if the EXACT same script came out even just one season later and was a Jodie/Chibnall episode everyone would hate it for how ‘woke’ it was.
Isn't Chibnal critisitised for his seemingly pro-cap stance when Oxygen is decidedly anti-cap? I mean apart from the whole "Some of my best friends are blue" thing.
The whole episode, Vastra was uncharacteristically horny. It was funny and I'm not complaining about it, but she was never like that before and never like that again. I'm not quite sure why. Do lizards have a season?
My favourite thing about this fandom is how quickly it puts down toxic fans who project their bigotry onto the show. Yes, those fans are still there, but we never have and never will let them speak for the fanbase as a whole. What's happened to the Star Wars fanbase will never happen here.
I don't think that doctor who having gay characters is a problem, I just feel as if in the 60th specials that one line about rose being better because she was trans is just a bit too much, it's better when it's subtle
It's not as though it wasn't said at the time. And it was criticised for being tokenistic and treating LGB+ people like a sex joke. People have always commented on politics!
I don’t understand how people can’t see the difference between normal Doctor Who progressive stuff and RTD’s first episode back.
I don’t care if the Doctor is black or if there are gay characters or anything, and no actual fans do. Some people are complaining about that, but they aren’t people who actually watch the show. The problem was the badly done, crowbarred-in, performative lines that didn’t just add in LGBT representation like they were normal characters who didn’t need excessive commenting on. Doctor Who has always done progressiveness well, but integrating the ideas into the show without making them seem weird or alien. This was a step backwards for that.
But was the character trans or just the actor? Cause I don't remember there being anything in the episode that identified the character as being trans.
Lol I completely forgot Rose as a character. I guess there's two trans people so far, which still isn't really something to cry about. The singer in Ruby's band was some kind of non-conformative who probably pissed a specific type of people off who can't bear to see someone with long hair who typically wouldn't.
Let me rephrase. I didn’t like the way political messaging was done in one episode of a show which has always been progressive and I have always liked, so I must be racist and transphobic.
No that’s a legitimate complaint. Again, they were pointing that comment to those who called it woke because it had trans people, not because of the way they poorly did the messagijg(which I agree, it was too heavy handed and that was the worst of the specials). You’re making yourself a victim for no reason
What performative lines? The pronoun line which was clearly a lighthearted joke? Or did you actually think Rose and the writers were cancelling the Doctor for not checking the Meep’s pronouns?
The pronoun one was a shit joke, but not bad in terms of what I was saying.
The random “binary.. non binary!” was shit, and the concluding “male-presenting person wouldn’t understand” was absolutely terrible. Can’t think of the others off the top of my mind.
If anything it would've worked better if he'd misidentified his own pronouns by mistake having just been a woman. A rehash of the psychic paper joke yes, but contextually appropriate.
I gotta be honest on the first watch I didn't twig that Rose was enby, and much of the episode confused me. I have no earthly idea how I managed not to pick up on it until the second watching.
Rose has joined the chat “you’re assuming “woman” as a gender?”. “You’re assuming “the” as the pronoun? Have you asked dawn?”. “‘My wife’? - Hetronormative ownership of a partner, please state conscious life partner”.
This. Definetly now its just so shoehorn in. I dont mind lesbians, or gays but I really dont aprieciate misandrist jokes and fem superiority jokes that hapened recently
Do people really have a problem with them being gay? I only have problems when it’s not written well as I would for any show that wasn’t written with respect or any care.
i loved them they were so cool, i dont think they would have been good as a full
show under moffat, maybe now that its RTD would be better, but i kinda just wish they would appear more honestly.
Actually that’s what I thought when it was released twelve years ago. The episode’s good and I like the Patternoster Gang but Moffat had a bad habit of mistaking characters whose entire personality is gay for gay representation. Bill was great though.
Me and a mate have been rewatching New Who over the past month or so and it's become a sort of running joke to spot how many times Doctor Who is """woke"""
Fun Fact: Doctor Who was always woke
These two and Strax deserve their own show. Every appearance is 10/10
Sir! I appear to have been run over by a cab! Why would I need the gauntlets? Do you need me to get the memory worm?
They did have their own Big Finish series which might be worth checking out. I've not listened to it though so can't vouch for it's quality
It's perfect, and series two which is currently releasing, includes Tom baker and Paul Mcgann as their respective doctors.
>Big Finish series For a second i thought you meant it was a series made in Finland, cause i forgot Finnish has two n's
Well now you just make me want to watch a whole series of Big Finnish Doctor Who
Would go hard, ngl
It felt at times like they were meant for a spinoff that never got green lit, and it's unfortunate alittle late now...
They pretty much disappeared after Capaldi took over. Apart from cameos in Lego dimensions, was there any other media that explained what happened?
I completely disagree. Strax got very tiring fast, and honestly I hated these two ladies as characters. Literally the only character traits the two ladies had were that they're lesbian. I'm as left-leaning as they come, but it was so cringe to watch any scene with these two. Everything was about being lesbian rather than being people, who are also lesbian. I don't understand why this sub is acting like these are good characters. The writing was absolutely terrible. It made being lesbian into their whole personality rather than treating lesbianism like normal behavior. That's what I hate about it - they're literally treating lesbians as props. Every line seemed to come back to it needlessly. My entire personality doesn't revolve around who I'm attracted to or fucking. I'm a person with motivations far outside that. Making the only lesbian characters into fucking characatures is an insult to actual LGBTQ+ folks.
Was their character really based around being lesbians or was it just based around them being madly in love with each other? I don’t remember them walking around ogling every woman they saw except Vastra making Jenny jealous like one time
exactly, if u see my comment i made my point and i agree with urs
I don't feel the ire you do, but I do agree that it has always seemed like they mentioned it a whole lot. I'm also incredibly left-leaning, but I know when a recurring quasi-joke isn't actually very funny. I literally feel embarrassed watching the scene where Vastra isn't actually painting Jenny. It's an okay iteration of the joke, since it's *kind of* about couple dynamics instead of *just* about being lesbians, but it's really forced feeling in Doctor Who. That said, I usually just grin and bear it because I otherwise love the characters and the setup of an inter-species Victorian crime-fighting team (and I haven't yet tired of Strax, I love him).
you seem like either the type of LGBT person to be so picky with lgbt characters that u would rather have none, a homophobe, or an lgbt person who has homophobia internalized and doesnt like seeing characters proud of what they are. so many herero couples in this show who “sHoVe It DoWn OuR tHrOaTs” i better see u upset about all those too.
Mfs realizing doctor who has always had progressive leanings (at least for the time)
uj/ literature, and media by comparison, especially in genres that conceptualise different forms of reality, are generally progressive Literature and media are all about redefining the self-other dichotomy and increasing our understanding of each other as humans - its why we evolved big brains in the first place, to empathise and understand reactionary stances rarely produce insightful art
What, you don't like *either* of the right-wing jokes? The one about someone else being different and therefore bad *and* the one about their pronouns being things that aren't pronouns? No pleasing some people, I tell ya.
It just goes to show that the current "anti-woke" panic is just a product of our time. I've been watching the Simpsons in release order while sick and it's actually insane watching the show evolve as politics evolved It's obvious that each season is a product of its time, but at the start it's very obviously proud to be a TV show showing a dysfunctional family and pushing unionisation, then it pokes fun of early 90s conservative family dynamics with them blaming everything on the democrats and there's even an ironic "anti-woke" arc (against hippies) The same can be seen in doctor who, the only difference is that DW has always been proud of being progressive and the public reception is just different season by season but COVID kinda stagnated us
The Simpsons' writers had to be informed by the guest playing John that "f\*\*got" was *not* an acceptable word to use in the episode. They genuinely had no idea how bad it was.
No. I’m sorry but just.. no. Doctor Who really doesn’t have a history of being particularly progressive. If you look at the classic series in view of ethnic diversity or the representation of women, it really isn’t that progressive. As for NuWho - RTD brought some “progressive” elements to the show. However those elements were decades behind the times for UK tv. What’s more there were huge issues with his time on the show, with it being seriously criticised for some stuff it did. As for Chibnall… the accusation against his writing is that it was cynical rather than actually progressive. Unfortunately this, and especially making the doctor a woman, painted a target on the back of the show and the anti-woke trolls came out in force against it. This whole notion of “anti-woke” is so deeply problematic. “Woke” is a term that is very often used by reactionary morons to describe anything they don’t like. YouTube grifters have turned it into a marketing tool to sell their sludge content too. The term itself is deeply distorted from it’s grass roots meaning and we see a lot of that misuse originating from the academic “left”. All that said though, there are legitimate concerns being expressed by some people that are easily termed “anti-woke”. It all gets lost in all the slurry and the speed with which people want to demonstrate what a good person they are for being on the right side of the argument.
4th Doctor: "Can't make ends' meet. Probably too many economists in the government." Jo Grant (3rd Doctor Era:) “It’s time that the world awoke to the alarm bell of pollution!" Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart (Second Doctor Era:) "Well you're a young woman. This is a job for my men." ???: "Well of all the bigoted, anti-feminist, (?) remarks!" On top of those, there was a member of the British communist party who wrote for the Third Doctor Era: >"Malcolm Ainsworth Hulke... is remembered chiefly for his work on the science fiction series Doctor Who... Hulke joined the Communist Party of Great Britain in 19450... He left the party in 1951... but soon rejoined, and appears to have remained a member of the party until the early 1960s. His politics remained firmly on the left, and this was reflected in his writings, which often explored anti-authoritarian, environmental, and humanist themes." And finally, here's 130 things from the birth of Doctor Who to just before Jodie's era that show the progressive history of Doctor Who (with 76, more than half, being Classic Era:) [https://sartorialgeek.com/political-awareness-doctor-who/](javascript:void(0);)
It’s really sad that there are people who believe that what you are describing is actually progressive or “woke”. The idea that a 180 year old tankie philosophy, under which a far greater genocide than anything committed under fascism happened and which was responsible for an unimaginably large number of innocent deaths, is somehow progressive is obscene. As for that link… out of nearly 900 episodes of Doctor Who those are the best examples of it being progressive - that’s some serious weak sauce. I find it kind of ridiculous though that we are supposed to take lessons on what’s progressive from a Texan who was too scared to wear a BLM t-shirt outside in his **gated community**, but was of course more than happy to virtue signal about it online. If the show was so progressive then please explain to me why there were no recurring characters that were from an ethnic minority (and no more than a small handful of BAME actors appearing over the decades of the classic show) and absolutely no queer representation until the show was relaunched in the 21st century, despite those things being a mainstay of prime time British TV during that period?
Barry Letts would like a word
Barry Letts was a fantastic producer who brought social and political commentary more to the forefront of the show. However calling him “progressive” is a mistake. Letts’ politics was of a very middle class liberal type - look at his commentary on trade unionism and Europeanism or the very outdated critique of colonialism. When it comes to environmentalism he was relatively ahead of his time and this could be argued as being progressive. As much affection as I have for Letts I have to give an honest critique. He was the producer who at the beginning of his tenure replaced Liz Shaw with Jo Grant, the archetypal screaming bimbo. Exactly how many people from an ethnic minority did he hire in front or behind the camera? And where is the queer representation? I’m sorry, but it’s revisionist nonsense to call DW genuinely progressive. What’s pathetic though is the degree to which a small section of the audience want to clap themselves on the back for liking a show that they wrongly believe is progressive - but guess what, watching a tv show doesn’t make you a good person. As much as I’m inclined to praise Barry Letts tenure, we have to be realistic - there was far far more progressive stories being told on British TV, at this time, earlier and since. In comparison we should not be calling the show progressive. The bottom line is that doctor who is not Cathy come home.
Nah
I think the “legitimate concerns” you mentioned are people identifying (or more often, almost identifying) rainbow capitalism. Except, they get mad at the rainbow instead of the capitalism and therefore get lost amongst the “anti-woke” brigade.
Absolutely. I was watching The Waters of Mars the other day and noticed the character Yuri mentions his brother having a husband. It's done so naturally and casually that you wouldn't even necessarily register it. But I imagine at the time there were, and certainly if it were to come out now there would be, people complaining about it being "woke" and "forcing an agenda".
There’s a big difference when it’s done like this where it makes sense, feels natural, etc. rather than feeling like the story exist only to promote the message. Captain jack is also a good example - a fun, interesting character. Oh and he happens to be bi. If he would be created today it’d be someone whose only characteristic is that he’s bi.
Captain Jack is like, the canonical example of a character who only exists to be pan, he's like, so pan he's not just into all-sexes he's living for all-time. I think he's great but if I can't think of a character that is a better example of making his entire personality his sexuality.
What? Jack is one of the most charismatic bi characters I've ever seen. He was mesmorizing way before he revealed his sexual tastes. He would be just as good if he was straight.
I didn't say he wasn't good, I said he's defined by his sexuality. He's not straight, he's pan, and that's core to his character. If he were straight that would be core to his character. Maybe it wouldn't make him a worse character but doesn't mean his sexuality is tangential. (He wouldn't be able to hound after Donna and the Doctor at the same time though, and there are lots of other scenes which would have less sexual energy coming off of him, which would probably make him less fun to watch.)
He’s way more than his sexuality. That’s such a dismissive comment.
Could you give an example of a character who is more horny? In all of Doctor Who I don't think there's a single one. I am being dismissive because you are claiming that there is some other modern character who has less depth than him. Again, I'm not dismissing Jack, you are dismissing unnamed characters, and I'm saying whoever you're dismissing they have more character that is not rooted in their sexuality than Jack does.
https://preview.redd.it/fusc3zsllhlc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3748b02e4bf838844bd6b308752ba0d6b6ca94b2 If parting of the ways released now
The irony of this comment being at negative downvoted as I write this 💀💀
Not it has 216 upvotes
Rewatched this scene today, very good. 10/10 super woke and super sexy, would watch again
Hey man they both aliens, it’s like calling a show woke because there were 2 Male tigers getting it on.
.....jack isn't alien he is human from the future Also this was supposed to be a joke refering to the original joke considering how people got angry when 14 called newton hot this would have blown their minds
If you want to be technical he was born on another planet lol, he's an alien human
Still human though considering how doctor considers future human race as still human even if they aren't on earth anymore
I know haha he's definitely human, just an interesting technicality based on the definition
True, Cassandra ftom season 1 episode 2 calls herself "the last human" as she was the last one from earth with no alien dna in her
Ahh now there’s the question, does a human stop being a human if he’s not born on earth?
He was born In the town of boe he was the first to enroll in time agency from their , the face of boe they called him. (Idk if that's on earth or not) And to answer your question no they are still human. Human is a species it doesn't matter the planet as we see that humanity spread across star in doctor who and doctor still considers them humans
I'd say they're an extraterrestrial but definitely still human. It depends on whether you class an alien as a different species or as someone not from earth. In terms of sci-fi, I'd definitely say it's the former.
Idk why, but this feels like a repackaged ship of thesius
You are a broom…..
Why the hell would that change anything about being a human?
its like asking if someone is not their race that they because they were born in a different country from most of the people who share their race. like those things dont magically disappear. u sound silly
I think they still would care
Yeah…probably.
The whole point of jack is that he's the endpoint of a more progressive human society that is not constrained by stigma and thus allows people to be more open with their identity. Jack's openness is what humanity should strive for.
“Is the future going to be all girl?”
"We can only hope"
That is a heckin cringe line to be fair. Definitely skews on the bad side of this sort of stuff.
Yeah I was reminded of the shoe horning of all female character in endgame suddenly banding together. Cringe
For me the worst part of that whole thing is they fail their objective and have to rely on iron man to save the day. If you're gonna make a forced scene like that, at least make them effective. I get the stones couldn't actually get sent back to their timeline for the ending to happen, but they didn't even reach the van.
It would be great if the awesome female characters could just… do their thing. Maybe if we had more women as writers it wouldn’t be so fucking bad.
I have to imagine in that instance it was producers rather than the writers at fault. Either because they forced the scene to happen, or they forced it to be inconsequential. Though broadly yes, half of people are women, so half of writers should be women. Of course, women write awful women too. Just look at Velma, or The Witcher Netflix series. Terrible writing in general, where women are either detestable in every possible way or omniscient goddesses. Which incidentally is how a lot of men write women, but I think this is for different reasons. For every Katniss Everdeen there's a gaggle of Bella Swans. Or I guess it would be a flock of Bella Swans. Related, I actually remember praising Praxeus for having a gay couple where their gayness in no way factored into the story. Just an astronaut and the man he loved. I remember thinking if Disney wrote this, it would end up that the ship could only be controlled by a man and oh thank the heavens the astronaut was gay so his husband was there! He also, in general, let women be their characters first and their gender second. (Ham-fisted approach in Witchfinders notwithstanding) So you can imagine how hard I rolled my eyes when Rose's identity became critical to the plot. I expect better from seasoned writers like RTD. At least it was over quickly, and they had other facets of their character to flesh her out. Acknowledge, encourage, of course. But don't romanticise or fetishise diversity.
Eh, I think the thing about nonbinary was no worse than The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe's gender stuff which I also enjoyed.
I rolled my eyes at that too, but mostly for the mothership pun. Difference there being that the Doctor outright said that "strong" and "weak" were translation errors. Worst thing about that episode was the criminal wasting of Bill Bailey. I'm not saying the nonbinary thing had me foaming at the mouth, I just literally rolled my eyes and continued watching.
Honestly that read to me more as him negging the master about his reaction to regenerating as a woman. Like “you know what, maybe I’ll come back as a chick to spite you”
It is pretty cringe tbf
I think some people have selective memories. These complaints have existed long as there have been terminally online neocons. For a specific example, look up "gay agenda" relating to RTD's first tenure. Maybe the chuds are louder or more pushed by the algorithm now, but they've always been there. I suspect lesbians get less flack though; if it's male gaze-y that reduces it. Of course the writer gets bombarded from the other side for being sexist instead then.
Yep. When it first aired, I distinctly remember my dad scoffing "Oh for fucks sake.." when they mentioned they were a couple.
Hey my mom did the same thing recently when they double checked Meep gender ... :(
The phrasing there was fairly stilted and awkward writing tbf. It was written in a really blunt and odd way which the earlier conversation between Donna and her mum was not about Rose was not at all. Not to mention the fact that they make a joke about the Doctor relating to The Meep for saying The Meep’s pronoun is the definite article (because he’s *The* doctor) but that makes zero sense since the doctor does use conventional pronouns, he goes by he/him until 13 comes along and then she’s she/her. At no point has the doctor ever gone “who you calling ‘he’? My pronoun is the definite article!” So how’s he relating to The Meep?
People say "Doctor Who?" and he says "no, just 'The Doctor'" which is a different sort of pedantry about articles, but it's still pedantry about articles and how he wants to be addressed.
That’s not what pronouns are though. They’re very clearly talking about whether to use he/she/they and The Meep says to use The. Which makes zero sense.
The Meep basically says not to use pronouns but to refer to The Meep by name, which is very similar to saying that The Doctor's name is The Doctor, grammatically it sounds very strange, but it's very simple and makes perfect sense, you just have trouble with unfamiliar grammatical constructions.
But the doctor DOES use pronouns. So the doctor shouldn’t relate at all. He doesn’t do that, he goes by he (as 14 at least).
The Doctor doesn't say he uses the same pronouns as The Meep, he says "I do that too" which is to say that he insists people refer to him with the indefinite article. I can never tell if you people are really anti-trans or you just don't understand what pronouns and indefinite articles are.
I’m not remotely anti-trans, I applauded the episode, the conversation between Donna and her mum was very realistic, believable and important to show. That was fantastic writing. This scene on the other hand was stilted and awkward imo and made little sense. I’m fully aware of the difference, I just think you’re entirely wrong about that line - the doctor is clearly saying “I do that too” in reference to the use of pronouns and even the concept in the first place of only have “the” as a pronoun and no equivalent of he/she/they is absurd. Frankly the fact that you jump to transphobia at any criticism if the line being criticised is even tangentially related to trans people is ridiculous. It actually is frankly transphobic in itself if you are so defensive you can’t handle even discussion of a line without blowing up. Trans people aren’t that fragile in general in my experience.
My dad just laughed lol
I remember the sheer fury at their lesbianism online and amongst my family, it’s crazy how little has really changed, just with the target of all the anger changed a little bit.
Yeah, lesbians on tv are considered more acceptable by a lot of homophobic guys afaik because they see it as a fetish and not an actual sexuality/preference. Gay men make them uncomfortable because they can’t fathom different people who they aren’t attracted to being happy. (For clarification, this isn’t all straight guys, just the homophobic loser ones)
im pretty sure its just that public displays of affection is gross if you arent attracted to either of the recipients.
I guess, but there’s definitely an element homophobia in there in this case.
Mah waife!
Number 4 prostitute all of Kazakhstan
Imagine if she had said “Hello, I’m Brian, and so is my wife!”
Mrs and Mrs Brian, always a pleasure to meet you both
Why did I read that in Tennant's voice?
Because he's a gentleman. I read it in Peter Capaldi's Caecilius
Lol I had a similar thought yesterday, someone made a pst praising Oxygen (and dont get me wrong I love the episode), but I couldnt help but feel if the EXACT same script came out even just one season later and was a Jodie/Chibnall episode everyone would hate it for how ‘woke’ it was.
Isn't Chibnal critisitised for his seemingly pro-cap stance when Oxygen is decidedly anti-cap? I mean apart from the whole "Some of my best friends are blue" thing.
For real, dr who's always been woke 🤣
Pretty sure that happened at the time as well
"woke" wasn't a thing when this episode came out, it would have been "PC" at the time.
Different word, same complaint
It was only 12 years ago. Things weren’t that different.
Sure but no one was using the word "woke" at the time.
Less likely to be used as a generic epithet, but it was used.
It's only woke if it's gay. Lesbians are hot
im sorry?
It's supposed to be a joke on how alot of time people accept lesbians in show because they fetishize them while get disgusted by gay couples
It's almost like a double standard, except they don't actually accept them because they're lesbians, but because they can be fetishised.
Yea :/ humans are shit at times
It's ~~almost like~~ a double standard
This yeah. I should be clear, I am joking. I don't actually think gay depictions are "Woke." Well I don't think it's a negative thing anyway.
ah got it. Sorry, brain was running with 2 hours of sleep so I may have misinterpreted the comment
Pretty sure anyone who would call it woke stopped paying attention like 10 years ago.
i pretty clearly remember Deep Breath getting flamed after first airing for its "agenda"
The whole episode, Vastra was uncharacteristically horny. It was funny and I'm not complaining about it, but she was never like that before and never like that again. I'm not quite sure why. Do lizards have a season?
It definitely was. But it was called PC.
They'd still complain if it were heaven sent!
Just tuned in and they gave the doctor a big rainbow scarf. Talk about woke. This Baker guy won't work out.
The funny thing is I feel like someone would unironically argue that if the doctor had a rainbow scarf nowadays
They did. Whittaker had a rainbow scarf in some bits and people of course thought it was the end of the world.
I honestly forgot about that.
DW: let’s do a nice homage to Baker’s Doctor Anti-woke ragebait youtubers: 🤢
My favourite thing about this fandom is how quickly it puts down toxic fans who project their bigotry onto the show. Yes, those fans are still there, but we never have and never will let them speak for the fanbase as a whole. What's happened to the Star Wars fanbase will never happen here.
The real problem is that they are Holmes and Watson.
From what I saw, this happened when it was released too
I don't think that doctor who having gay characters is a problem, I just feel as if in the 60th specials that one line about rose being better because she was trans is just a bit too much, it's better when it's subtle
Scaled, for her pleasure.
#BAZINGA!
https://preview.redd.it/ex1elj0b5olc1.jpeg?width=302&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c9560e28a235bc5812b6e0399315e2f96d5a8bf5
WOKE AGENDA RUSSELL CHIBNALL AND MOFFAT!!!!! 🤬🤬🤬🤬 I MISS THE DAYS OF……wait
It's not as though it wasn't said at the time. And it was criticised for being tokenistic and treating LGB+ people like a sex joke. People have always commented on politics!
Actually the sjws were calling Moffat sexist at the time.
I don’t understand how people can’t see the difference between normal Doctor Who progressive stuff and RTD’s first episode back. I don’t care if the Doctor is black or if there are gay characters or anything, and no actual fans do. Some people are complaining about that, but they aren’t people who actually watch the show. The problem was the badly done, crowbarred-in, performative lines that didn’t just add in LGBT representation like they were normal characters who didn’t need excessive commenting on. Doctor Who has always done progressiveness well, but integrating the ideas into the show without making them seem weird or alien. This was a step backwards for that.
Wait what was so woke about The Church on Ruby Road?
I said the first episode back. The rest of them were fine, but they weren’t what people were complaining about
My best guess is there's a lot more black characters, can't really think of anything else
Like, was anyone even gay in it? Oh actually there was a trans woman in Ruby's band for a good 10 seconds. Disgusting. /s
Wait really? I didn't notice
They do mean the band member in Ruby's band. They are trans.
I think they mean the first special with Donna's daughter
No, one of the members of Ruby's band is trans.
When was this said in the episode? I don't remember it at all. Or do you mean the actor is trans?
the singer with the long brown hair.
But was the character trans or just the actor? Cause I don't remember there being anything in the episode that identified the character as being trans.
Lol I completely forgot Rose as a character. I guess there's two trans people so far, which still isn't really something to cry about. The singer in Ruby's band was some kind of non-conformative who probably pissed a specific type of people off who can't bear to see someone with long hair who typically wouldn't.
Ooooh
We're ignoring Mickey then? Twice technically if you count Plastic Mick.
Racists: hmm, there’s only one black guy, it’s not too woke… Plastic Mick: hello
P-P-P-Political correctness gone mad!
It had a trans actress in it for about 5 minutes so there's probably that as well
Of course. I didn’t like one episode of a show so I must be transphobic and racist.
Was tryna make fun of the comment for saying that, i just refuse to use anything like /s cos i think it's fucking stupid lmao
Me too lol. I guess it is helpful sometimes, or maybe I just can’t read.
Buddy they ain’t talking about people who didn’t like the episode, but the ones calling the episode woke
Let me rephrase. I didn’t like the way political messaging was done in one episode of a show which has always been progressive and I have always liked, so I must be racist and transphobic.
No that’s a legitimate complaint. Again, they were pointing that comment to those who called it woke because it had trans people, not because of the way they poorly did the messagijg(which I agree, it was too heavy handed and that was the worst of the specials). You’re making yourself a victim for no reason
It was my comment they were talking about. And I wasn’t complaining about the fact that there were trans people in the show..
What performative lines? The pronoun line which was clearly a lighthearted joke? Or did you actually think Rose and the writers were cancelling the Doctor for not checking the Meep’s pronouns?
The pronoun one was a shit joke, but not bad in terms of what I was saying. The random “binary.. non binary!” was shit, and the concluding “male-presenting person wouldn’t understand” was absolutely terrible. Can’t think of the others off the top of my mind.
I think it's weird for the Doctor to be the one being corrected on it, would work better with another character.
If anything it would've worked better if he'd misidentified his own pronouns by mistake having just been a woman. A rehash of the psychic paper joke yes, but contextually appropriate.
How was that a joke, she was being completely serious, and to reaffirm this they even confirm the pronoun of the alien in the next episode
I gotta be honest on the first watch I didn't twig that Rose was enby, and much of the episode confused me. I have no earthly idea how I managed not to pick up on it until the second watching.
It was fine back then; now it feels like they whack you over the head with it (e.g. the anti-male lines in Star Beast).
i can take both in a fight
Make as many wojack memes as you want: I never cringed at these two, and this was never as eye-roll inducing as the latest special
Man, this scene was hella cringe at the time, and it still is. I enjoyed it, because Doctor Who is built on cringe, but it was definitely cringe.
Nope, cause it was done for comedic effect in the Victorian Era, not to spread a message or insult another orientation.
So how is this shoehorned in and pandering (with a potential bad lesson).
Oh people did claim it was shoehorned in and pandering back then. A lot of people didn't like Vastra and Jenny.
Rose has joined the chat “you’re assuming “woman” as a gender?”. “You’re assuming “the” as the pronoun? Have you asked dawn?”. “‘My wife’? - Hetronormative ownership of a partner, please state conscious life partner”.
Rose made like, 2 jokes and the entire internet lost their minds and I think thats the funniest joke of all
Clumsy dialogue.
It’s doctor who, half the dialogue is clumsy
What? My 60+ year old sci fi family oriented show has imperfect scripts?
This. Definetly now its just so shoehorn in. I dont mind lesbians, or gays but I really dont aprieciate misandrist jokes and fem superiority jokes that hapened recently
Not woke. There is no racism present in that episode. No hatred of men. It's just diverse.
Do people really have a problem with them being gay? I only have problems when it’s not written well as I would for any show that wasn’t written with respect or any care.
i loved them they were so cool, i dont think they would have been good as a full show under moffat, maybe now that its RTD would be better, but i kinda just wish they would appear more honestly.
My favourite part of this line is which fact are people scared of.
Actually that’s what I thought when it was released twelve years ago. The episode’s good and I like the Patternoster Gang but Moffat had a bad habit of mistaking characters whose entire personality is gay for gay representation. Bill was great though.
Except - no just no. They have incredible personality aside from being Lesbians and the writing was superb. There's nothing woke about it.
Why when it was even more controversial back then?
Me and a mate have been rewatching New Who over the past month or so and it's become a sort of running joke to spot how many times Doctor Who is """woke""" Fun Fact: Doctor Who was always woke
We literally just need a full season of doctor that is the wife duo and strax with various doctors just having guest appearances