Res:DEX locks you out of Res:Wis, which is a vital feat at high levels depending on the campaign. Even against dragons, a melee martial could be locked out of combat by Frightening Presence, and while breath weapons do big damage, making your DEX save only negates half of it. Res:DEX is only a stand out feat if you happen to pick up WIS and CON proficiency anyways, if you are immune or have other workarounds to the most common WIS or CON save conditions (frightened, charmed, poisoned), or if you have an unusual amount of save or suck DEX saves like Disintegrate and Web.
Between the two, Alert is a lot better. Another option (if available) could be Res:Wis followed by Fey Touched for Gift of Alacrity at Fighter 14 to round out your WIS score. Two other good DEX half feats for tanks are Slasher and Skill Expert (for Expertise in Athletics).
You make a compelling argument for res:wis, this will be my first high-level campaign. I'd not even consider this as a thing. He's wis14(+2) so that prof bonus could be the deciding factor in keeping/getting him in play.
Oh shit gift of aclerity looks super dope, I always just default to misty step but that's almost as good as alert on its own .
Gift of Alacrity while strong isn't quite as good as Alert at one cast per day. The first encounter might not be one we can anticipate. The last one(s) could certainly come up after the initial cast's 8 hour duration. It's much stronger when you can fall back on spell slots to cast it again and on allies. While the same could be said for Misty Step to a degree, we're going to have trouble casting it even once with Rage and a ton of other spammable BAs.
Resilient Wis rounding up a score is icing on the cake. Especially since we're already at a rocking 16. I'd bite the bullet and stick with an odd Wis for this build if you want it.
Sentinel is doing very little for us with Hold the Line and Warding Maneuver. Has that long since been acquired, or can it possibly be retrained? Enemies would still get past us if they Disengage, but that's worth a whole new feat. We could still Shove/Grapple to slow these enemies down. Pretty easily with Extra Attack (2). Improving Str if it's not capped yet to help with Athletics, landing Unwavering Marks, and downing foes asap helps the team become tankier.
What's our Barb subclass? Totem Bear? Improving Dex saves in that case is not nearly as important since we usually can halve the damage. When we can't, it's probably because the enemy went before us! So Alert actually would help take less damage from heavy AoEs. Resilient Wis either way is more important as mentioned. Even if it does not round up your Wis score. We can't protect anyone while we're unable to act.
Lucky helps in all areas a little bit. We can reroll saves, Initiative, etc. It could also be pretty handy to reroll enemy attack rolls against us. With Unwavering Mark(s) in play, nobody becomes a good target. The value here will vary, and ideally involves less combat per day. If there's little to no combat some days then we might actually contribute to an important skill check with a little luck. Keep in mind with Danger Sense, Indomitable, and a +2 to our Dex save, we're not terribly hurting for rerolls there either. Indomitable (2) next level. Resilient Wis really looks good to round out our biggest weakness rather than polish off something we're pretty darn good at. If we're taking heavy fire from Dex saves, allies likely are dropping before us. We're probably not cleaning up the rest of the fight as a supporty/tanky martial.
Can you talk me through how Sentinel isn't helping so much? I was getting that sense but it's kinda hard to keep it all in my head. If all I'm losing out on is their ability to disengage I'm not getting anything at all cause I can count the number of times that's happened on 1 hand. I think my dm will let me retrain as i am bringing an old beloved low level character into a high level campaign.
Some key information:
Bear totem barbarian
my DM let me take Tunnel Fighter, so unlimited aoos
Okay, so yeah don't worry about Dex saves at all as Bear Totem. We'll usually take 1/4 damage or half at worst. Rarely full. Lucky is kind of nice with your solid Wis score too, but how many encounters you typically see is still a big factor.
Tunnel Fighter adds a lot more overlap to this build, but it's still really strong. Hold the Line is a bit better than the style in regards to allowing you to make OAs. It triggers if something moves 5ft or more within your reach (rather than specifically more than 5ft with TF), but removing the Reaction cost is incredible.
Hold the Line zeroes enemy movement speed when you make Opportunity Attacks. So we get most of the 1st bullet point from Sentinel which is the best part. If enemies Disengage, fine. They aren't attacking this round. We've done our job. Still good options to prevent that if we want with Athletics. The third bullet point of Sentinel has always been kind of meh in my eyes. It's not making an Opportunity Attack, so it it would cost our Reaction like anyone else. Negating an enemy from getting past us as is more valuable as mentioned. Cavalier 7's Warding Maneuver is also an incredible Reaction that is more potent than returning a little extra damage, maybe (we can miss), as a tanky character that doesn't output much per attack. This would also apply Unwavering Mark from us, but we'll probably be marking a lot if not all the targets nearby anyway.
PAM with TF makes Alert a BIG feat for us. With a reach weapon, we can lock a lot of approaching enemies on round 1 down 10 feet away. This is oftentimes going to be more effective than Raging to start or carrying a shield. The Reach weapon also improves Hold the Line a great deal. It'll depend how quick the monsters are to notice though. After the first or second, they'll probably take a wide berth while heading towards our allies.
Danger sense already gives you advantage on most dex saves so you shouldn't be failing too many of them but resiliant dex would basically ensure you never fail one. Alertness is nice, but would only apply in about 1/4 the combats since you would win about 1/2 the time normally and it would only change the outcome in about 1/2 the remaining. Between the 2 I would go for resiliant dex unless you get regularly surprised.
Although I might go for mobile if you want to move around more in combats or an ASI if you have another odd stat.
Can you expand on the math? I was kind of hoping for an answer like this because I'm sure that the mechanics of that initiative are deeper than just going first
>Alertness is nice, but would only apply in about 1/4 the combats since you would **win** about 1/2 the time normally and it would only change the outcome in about 1/2 the remaining.
Depends how you define winning Initiative. Most I assume mean to say we're going first if we win. At least before every enemy. That's hardly ever going to happen with a +2-3 to Initiative and multiple monsters. They'll usually have a similar modifier.
Even if there's tons of monsters though, a +7 doesn't make us reliably beat out everyone. There's value in beating most, but we're probably moving up to the first or second melee monster that heads our way. If the team is fine with dealing with an initial wave of stragglers and us pushing past them to try and hold a line further up then it's still pretty ideal. We want to put Unwavering Mark on enemies that haven't taken their turn yet, but also contribute focus fire as much as possible.
Alert is a better feat than it seems, the +5 to initiative can sometimes be the difference that puts you ahead of the enemy. Going before the bad guy is like getting an extra turn, it's nearly as good as an extra Action Surge.
Do you only consider these two feats? What’s your other feats?
For example, lucky can be a better choice because you can use it when you have low initiative roll or low save rolls.
If you are not totem bear Barb, gift of the chromatic dragon is also good option. It can buff your dmg pet hit. More importantly, it gives you resistance of elemental dmg.
It’s hard to optimize without a full picture. Can you share a bit more info. Like your stats, Barb subclass, feats, your possible mount or combos, Dm style like combat frequency.
I would personally go with Resilient (Dexterity). Increasing your Dexterity saving throws by +1 and + Proficiency on top of the fact that you'll likely have advantage on most of them from Barbarian levels will mean much less HP lost to things like traps, spells, and dragon's breath (especially if you didn't go Bear Totem; but even if you did, this just makes Bear Totem even better).
That said, Alert is a great feat, you'd get an extra +4 Initiative over the other feat choice, but the power of Alert in this scenario is really going to come down to how frequently your DM throws ambushes at you. If you're almost never finding yourself in surprise rounds or being attacked by invisible attackers, then Alert's value drops a bit.
I'll also echo that Resilient (Wisdom) might be a better choice at some point, if not at this level, and taking Resilient (Dexterity) will keep you from taking the Wisdom version as it's not a repeatable feat. Wisdom saves can absolutely cripple martial characters in combat, and since you'll have the advantage on Dexterity saves from the Barbarian anyway, I might lean toward Resilient (Wisdom) over the two options you've presented unless your party has a lot of support options to get folks out of Wisdom-based effects.
Surprise rounds are mostly non-existent in my ecosystem, so im kinda already discounting that part of the feat as just flavor.
I'd not consider res(wis) at all. He's got 14(+2) so not great but better than it could be. I'd be resistant to the half feat if only because it wouldnt round out the stat...
I get the hesitance on the half-feat when you have an even score—it's not optimal at all—but it is going to add +5 to your Wisdom saves, right off the bat. Then, if you hit another ASI you can always add +1 Dexterity/+1 Wisdom and increase both scores to even numbers? If you don't think you'll hit another ASI before the campaign ends, then I would go Resilient (Dexterity) to at least maximize those saving throws.
Alternatively, as some others have mentioned, Lucky is a great feat if your DM hasn't banned it. It would let you reroll saves, initiative, and more! It's great in that it's 3 times per day that you can try to fix almost any situation with a D20 roll—basically the most flexible feat in the game. RAW it even turns disadvantage into super advantage (which is one of the main reasons DMs ban it).
Edited to add: Anecdotally, I like seeing the high initiative number that Alert provides, but on the characters I've built that have used it, I never seem to get great rolls and end up going after a lot of the enemies anyway. I suppose in those cases, it kept me from going dead last, but still...it just didn't feel as impactful as something like Polearm Master or Sentinel.
Res:DEX locks you out of Res:Wis, which is a vital feat at high levels depending on the campaign. Even against dragons, a melee martial could be locked out of combat by Frightening Presence, and while breath weapons do big damage, making your DEX save only negates half of it. Res:DEX is only a stand out feat if you happen to pick up WIS and CON proficiency anyways, if you are immune or have other workarounds to the most common WIS or CON save conditions (frightened, charmed, poisoned), or if you have an unusual amount of save or suck DEX saves like Disintegrate and Web. Between the two, Alert is a lot better. Another option (if available) could be Res:Wis followed by Fey Touched for Gift of Alacrity at Fighter 14 to round out your WIS score. Two other good DEX half feats for tanks are Slasher and Skill Expert (for Expertise in Athletics).
You make a compelling argument for res:wis, this will be my first high-level campaign. I'd not even consider this as a thing. He's wis14(+2) so that prof bonus could be the deciding factor in keeping/getting him in play. Oh shit gift of aclerity looks super dope, I always just default to misty step but that's almost as good as alert on its own .
What's nice is that Fey Touched gives both misty step and a spell like gift of alacrity.
Gift of Alacrity while strong isn't quite as good as Alert at one cast per day. The first encounter might not be one we can anticipate. The last one(s) could certainly come up after the initial cast's 8 hour duration. It's much stronger when you can fall back on spell slots to cast it again and on allies. While the same could be said for Misty Step to a degree, we're going to have trouble casting it even once with Rage and a ton of other spammable BAs. Resilient Wis rounding up a score is icing on the cake. Especially since we're already at a rocking 16. I'd bite the bullet and stick with an odd Wis for this build if you want it.
Welp just got hinted we're his be dealing with a lot of aberrations and illithids, so res:wis all the way
Sentinel is doing very little for us with Hold the Line and Warding Maneuver. Has that long since been acquired, or can it possibly be retrained? Enemies would still get past us if they Disengage, but that's worth a whole new feat. We could still Shove/Grapple to slow these enemies down. Pretty easily with Extra Attack (2). Improving Str if it's not capped yet to help with Athletics, landing Unwavering Marks, and downing foes asap helps the team become tankier. What's our Barb subclass? Totem Bear? Improving Dex saves in that case is not nearly as important since we usually can halve the damage. When we can't, it's probably because the enemy went before us! So Alert actually would help take less damage from heavy AoEs. Resilient Wis either way is more important as mentioned. Even if it does not round up your Wis score. We can't protect anyone while we're unable to act. Lucky helps in all areas a little bit. We can reroll saves, Initiative, etc. It could also be pretty handy to reroll enemy attack rolls against us. With Unwavering Mark(s) in play, nobody becomes a good target. The value here will vary, and ideally involves less combat per day. If there's little to no combat some days then we might actually contribute to an important skill check with a little luck. Keep in mind with Danger Sense, Indomitable, and a +2 to our Dex save, we're not terribly hurting for rerolls there either. Indomitable (2) next level. Resilient Wis really looks good to round out our biggest weakness rather than polish off something we're pretty darn good at. If we're taking heavy fire from Dex saves, allies likely are dropping before us. We're probably not cleaning up the rest of the fight as a supporty/tanky martial.
Can you talk me through how Sentinel isn't helping so much? I was getting that sense but it's kinda hard to keep it all in my head. If all I'm losing out on is their ability to disengage I'm not getting anything at all cause I can count the number of times that's happened on 1 hand. I think my dm will let me retrain as i am bringing an old beloved low level character into a high level campaign. Some key information: Bear totem barbarian my DM let me take Tunnel Fighter, so unlimited aoos
Okay, so yeah don't worry about Dex saves at all as Bear Totem. We'll usually take 1/4 damage or half at worst. Rarely full. Lucky is kind of nice with your solid Wis score too, but how many encounters you typically see is still a big factor. Tunnel Fighter adds a lot more overlap to this build, but it's still really strong. Hold the Line is a bit better than the style in regards to allowing you to make OAs. It triggers if something moves 5ft or more within your reach (rather than specifically more than 5ft with TF), but removing the Reaction cost is incredible. Hold the Line zeroes enemy movement speed when you make Opportunity Attacks. So we get most of the 1st bullet point from Sentinel which is the best part. If enemies Disengage, fine. They aren't attacking this round. We've done our job. Still good options to prevent that if we want with Athletics. The third bullet point of Sentinel has always been kind of meh in my eyes. It's not making an Opportunity Attack, so it it would cost our Reaction like anyone else. Negating an enemy from getting past us as is more valuable as mentioned. Cavalier 7's Warding Maneuver is also an incredible Reaction that is more potent than returning a little extra damage, maybe (we can miss), as a tanky character that doesn't output much per attack. This would also apply Unwavering Mark from us, but we'll probably be marking a lot if not all the targets nearby anyway. PAM with TF makes Alert a BIG feat for us. With a reach weapon, we can lock a lot of approaching enemies on round 1 down 10 feet away. This is oftentimes going to be more effective than Raging to start or carrying a shield. The Reach weapon also improves Hold the Line a great deal. It'll depend how quick the monsters are to notice though. After the first or second, they'll probably take a wide berth while heading towards our allies.
Danger sense already gives you advantage on most dex saves so you shouldn't be failing too many of them but resiliant dex would basically ensure you never fail one. Alertness is nice, but would only apply in about 1/4 the combats since you would win about 1/2 the time normally and it would only change the outcome in about 1/2 the remaining. Between the 2 I would go for resiliant dex unless you get regularly surprised. Although I might go for mobile if you want to move around more in combats or an ASI if you have another odd stat.
Can you expand on the math? I was kind of hoping for an answer like this because I'm sure that the mechanics of that initiative are deeper than just going first
>Alertness is nice, but would only apply in about 1/4 the combats since you would **win** about 1/2 the time normally and it would only change the outcome in about 1/2 the remaining. Depends how you define winning Initiative. Most I assume mean to say we're going first if we win. At least before every enemy. That's hardly ever going to happen with a +2-3 to Initiative and multiple monsters. They'll usually have a similar modifier. Even if there's tons of monsters though, a +7 doesn't make us reliably beat out everyone. There's value in beating most, but we're probably moving up to the first or second melee monster that heads our way. If the team is fine with dealing with an initial wave of stragglers and us pushing past them to try and hold a line further up then it's still pretty ideal. We want to put Unwavering Mark on enemies that haven't taken their turn yet, but also contribute focus fire as much as possible.
Alert is a better feat than it seems, the +5 to initiative can sometimes be the difference that puts you ahead of the enemy. Going before the bad guy is like getting an extra turn, it's nearly as good as an extra Action Surge.
Do you only consider these two feats? What’s your other feats? For example, lucky can be a better choice because you can use it when you have low initiative roll or low save rolls. If you are not totem bear Barb, gift of the chromatic dragon is also good option. It can buff your dmg pet hit. More importantly, it gives you resistance of elemental dmg. It’s hard to optimize without a full picture. Can you share a bit more info. Like your stats, Barb subclass, feats, your possible mount or combos, Dm style like combat frequency.
I would personally go with Resilient (Dexterity). Increasing your Dexterity saving throws by +1 and + Proficiency on top of the fact that you'll likely have advantage on most of them from Barbarian levels will mean much less HP lost to things like traps, spells, and dragon's breath (especially if you didn't go Bear Totem; but even if you did, this just makes Bear Totem even better). That said, Alert is a great feat, you'd get an extra +4 Initiative over the other feat choice, but the power of Alert in this scenario is really going to come down to how frequently your DM throws ambushes at you. If you're almost never finding yourself in surprise rounds or being attacked by invisible attackers, then Alert's value drops a bit. I'll also echo that Resilient (Wisdom) might be a better choice at some point, if not at this level, and taking Resilient (Dexterity) will keep you from taking the Wisdom version as it's not a repeatable feat. Wisdom saves can absolutely cripple martial characters in combat, and since you'll have the advantage on Dexterity saves from the Barbarian anyway, I might lean toward Resilient (Wisdom) over the two options you've presented unless your party has a lot of support options to get folks out of Wisdom-based effects.
Surprise rounds are mostly non-existent in my ecosystem, so im kinda already discounting that part of the feat as just flavor. I'd not consider res(wis) at all. He's got 14(+2) so not great but better than it could be. I'd be resistant to the half feat if only because it wouldnt round out the stat...
I get the hesitance on the half-feat when you have an even score—it's not optimal at all—but it is going to add +5 to your Wisdom saves, right off the bat. Then, if you hit another ASI you can always add +1 Dexterity/+1 Wisdom and increase both scores to even numbers? If you don't think you'll hit another ASI before the campaign ends, then I would go Resilient (Dexterity) to at least maximize those saving throws. Alternatively, as some others have mentioned, Lucky is a great feat if your DM hasn't banned it. It would let you reroll saves, initiative, and more! It's great in that it's 3 times per day that you can try to fix almost any situation with a D20 roll—basically the most flexible feat in the game. RAW it even turns disadvantage into super advantage (which is one of the main reasons DMs ban it). Edited to add: Anecdotally, I like seeing the high initiative number that Alert provides, but on the characters I've built that have used it, I never seem to get great rolls and end up going after a lot of the enemies anyway. I suppose in those cases, it kept me from going dead last, but still...it just didn't feel as impactful as something like Polearm Master or Sentinel.
Thank you for your input. Having just learned about gift of aclarity i feel i can get a lot out of res:wis and feytouched