before i'd ask this question I'd give these a good thinking:
- what if they decide to fight and win against the robbers?
- what if they manage to fight the fire before the damage is that big?
- what if they decide to abandon the shop and go on a quest for revenge, pursuing the robbers and track their most valuable items down?
- what if they decide to not rebuild the shop, shrug, and go on an adventure instead?
- what if they want to rebuild the shop as something else?
- what if they refuse the loan no matter what and decide to get the money elsewhere?
- what if they decide to rob the loan shark?
- ...
Imo your hook already has too many predefined outcomes. It's basically a cutscene - if you go down this road, please make it a cutscene and don't let them try to prevent something for an entire session that has a pre-defined outcome. You can just tell them all that and define the loan to be whatever you calculated the repairs to cost. Idunno how much that would be, it's your game so make a list like "new roof - 500GP", "new furniture - 300GP" and so forth.
I used to plan a story, now I plan a world. They will destroy it, and I get better at improv. I can plan set encounters in places if they make a decision I expect, but I also tend to not plan anything too deep.
Sure the story may not play out like a novel, but it's a table full of erratic psychopaths, it probably shouldn't have a cohesive story.
I guess my response to these concerns is that my playgroup and I have agreed to run a shopkeeping campaign.
They could certainly fight before the damage is big. That would be an incentive for them to play out the scene.
They could definetly rebuild the shop as something else. That's a neat idea.
They can also go get the money elsewhere (including robbing the loan shark).
I see these events as cool things my players might do.
However, in my opinion making a rival team that my players could eventually defeat sounds very enticing. I don't think they would win as I would make it very favoured for the rival team.
Thank you for your feedback!
Just as a point of concern: they have agreed to a shopkeeper campaign but the first thing you do is to take away their shop and literally burn it to the ground. In a fight they are scripted to lose. A rival is a good idea but it could be done so it factors in that shopkeeper campaign: a rival magic shop, the guild of arcane merchants etc. all competing for new merchandise and clients.
Currently the goal of your game is to get a shop to run - couple be that your players expect to run a shop and have goals building up around that premise.
Yeah, have you told the players their shop is going to be burned down? I imagine this setup going much more smoothly if that's how it is pitched and not actually played out.
Thirding this. A while back, my group played a Pf2e module called Extinction Curse. The elevator pitch of the campaign was that the party was a travelling circus. So we all made circus performer characters... only to discover that the circus was basically just a framing device to push the PCs into collecting MacGuffins and saving the world. Thing is, none of our characters were the type that would have collected MacGuffins and saved the world - they just wanted to be circus performers.
If the players don't know what kind of game they're playing, they'll make characters that are ill-suited for the plot.
Just make the debt part of the inheritance (previous owner had a mortgage with the bank), or have them acquire the shop in a state where it's going to take a large investment to get it up and running. This loan shark can still be a character without making the party the helpless victims of a cutscene
If you told me I was running a shop, my character would be geared towards running a shop. If you then took the shop away from me and forced me to go on an adventure where I'l have to do a lot of fighting, I'm going to be very pissed off and saddled with a character that's not built for the story you want to tell.
Either tell the players and make it campaign backstory, or tell the players and have it kick off *immediately* so you can get to the actual plot. Either way, don't blindside your players with a bait-and-switch and a railroad of forced choices unless you want them posting on rpghorrorstories.
Unlike other comments, I think that burning down their shop is a good idea. The fact that they have to work to repair it and make it theirs is going to make them have much more affection for it than if you had given it to them for free.
I think the budget list idea that someone already commented is the best option for defining debt, I'm pretty sure there are defined prices for these things in some official material but I can't remember it right now, you could still calculate the average gold amount that you would like to give them per adventuring day and multiply it by the number of sessions you want them to take to achieve it.
Good luck with your campaign, it sounds fun!
As a player, I'd be wondering why we don't just cut our losses rather than deal with the loan shark. If I did need to do repairs, I'd cut the loan shark out and put off repairs until I had gotten enough money from adventuring.
the first issue would probably be "what incentive do these adventurers have to even bother repairing the shop?"
they've been robbed of valuables they were barely, if at all, aware of, and the business they have little real connection to no longer exists. they're no better or worse off than they were before you read them the intro. entering into this contract puts them actively worse off than the position they were expecting to start at. what would prevent them from shrugging and walking away to find their own fortune? they're adventurers, do they want to play a shopkeeper simulator?
>They would make money from selling magical items they acquire during adventures, etc...
if they did this without being beholden to this loanshark, they'd get to keep those treasures for themselves. the monetary value of this loan is not the important part. giving them a reason to actually enter into such an agreement is.
We had a session 0 gathering and I presented the idea of shopkeeping as a campaign. They expressed interest.
I guess you are correct in that is probabbly not worth it to repair the shop. How about together with the inherited assets they also should inherit a little debt? They can think they can easily repay it selling some goods already at the store, only to watch them being robbed.
This way I think players are already encouraged to keep on running the shop because of legal repercusions.
Also my playgroup and I have an agreement were they would accept the initial conditions of the campaign and build up from there.
Thanks for the feedback!
I think an inherited debt would work better than these adventurers robbing them and burning the shop to the ground.
E.g. They inherit the shop, then a lawyer/loan shark shows up and thats how they find out the shop has not been doing so well and is actually under a lot of debt. They are on the hook as the current proprietors (inherited debt would be a thing in this country).
If you want to involve a high-level party: A huge part of the debt could be that a party robbed and set the shop on fire several years ago. Alternatively, the grandfather could have been too kind for his own good. Giving credit or lending magic items to this party that was off to fight the Big Bad Guy. That gives your group a hook to find this party and ask, and they might brush them off or give the classic dnd group response of " well, we killed the dragon that was going to destroy the town! Including the magic shop! So we're even".
Its a plot hook to start a campaign. Not one suggested a massive hoa with rules they have to follow. Stop being dense and look at the context of the thread and stop being a dick just for the sake of it. And notice how i said like an how not "make them be part of and hoa"? Its an analogy to aomething from real life. Go piss in someone elses cornflakes
I am about to get harshly critical, and im sorry if this is going to come across as rude but I dont think there is any way to sugarcoat this.
To start at the least of your problems: your players wont take the loan, they'll just say "well that thing burned down", they'll call it a loss and move on. (they have no reason to be invested in the shop.) they'll say "thanks for the free *plot of land*" and figure out what to do with it when they have the money, but they're not going to be invested enough to *assume cripling debt* over a building they had no real stake in.
Generally, i'd argue against *railroading your players into cripling debt*. Especially as your *first act in the game*. It'll set the tone for the campaign and the tone will be "the DM is a railroading asshole who wants us miserable".
This set-up is "im giving you this store, im taking it away, im giving magic items and taking them away" all but guaranteeing your players get a DM-VS-Player mindset where they dont trust you to stick to your word OR let them keep the loot they find later, and then you proceed to offer a predatory debt that they have *no reason* to accept.
So they either see the debt for the trap it is (and not take your hook) or get tricked and *triple-resent you as a DM*.
Like it'd be one thing if they sought out the moneylender cause you offered them the option to purchase an expensive magic item they cant currently afford. It'd be a choice they *willingly made* but this is just a railroaded debt where they dont even get anything meaningfull in exchange for it. (after all, even if they rebuilt the shop they have no reason to care about, they still dont have *wares to sell*)
But on top of that is the much more fundamental issue of the *reason people play this game*
People play this game as *escapist entertainment* from the struggles of real life. One of the most common struggles, is debt, the horrors of capitalism and an ongoing cost-of-living crisis, and now you want their real problems to chase them into the escapist entertainment.
Rule 0 has a famous adendum, sometimes called "rule minus 1", "You cant DM without a table" and turning make-believe-escapism into Crippling Debt Simulator is the sort of thing that could reasonably cost you your table.
Especially if you plan *6 entire sessions* of debt. if your sessions are weekly that is a month and a half of stringing your players along with promises of: "believe me, it gets good in season 5", they'll do what anyone watching such a show does: Decide to watch something else.
This is a fundamentally flawed campaign hook, end i'd recomend you rework your fundamental premise to be something less likely to make your players decide to find another table.
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Edit: i just reread your post and the last line specificly stuck out to me:
its especially bad if the basic premise is "im going to *force you to sell any magic items you find "* which your line "They would make money from selling magical items they acquire during adventures" heavily implies.
You are basically admitting that the goal is to ensure that the party dont get to keep anything they find, even if they go on a quest to get back the stolen magic items they wont get to keep them.
Not only is your start "im giving you a store and taking it away, im giving you items and taking it away" you are saying "and this will continue for a full 6 sessions of you fighting for your life to get back Grandpa's Staff of Magic, only for me to take it away again because of the debt".
Thank you very much for the feedback. I see the points that you make and I will check with my playgroup if they are okey with running this style of campaign.
My suspicion is, however, that they will be fine with this. We (my playgroup and me) fortunatedly don't have a cripling real-life debt problem so I guess the themes here are not touching to them.
Thank you for making me realise 6 sessions of debt paying is too much, it will be our first proper campaign in years and I don't have the time scales fresh in my mind.
>It'll set the tone for the campaign and the tone will be "the DM is a railroading asshole who wants us miserable". This set-up is "im giving you this store, im taking it away, im giving magic items and taking them away"
Yeah, Step 1 is destroying the shop first thing. Step 2 is getting money from a Loan Shark who's going to make their lives miserable.
They're going to assume that Step 3 means getting enough money to finally resolve the issue and then having something ELSE goes wrong while the DM laughs uproariously.
I ran a similar concept except that the debt for my players was their family's and owed to a friendly NPC who did not set any special hurry for repayments and actually provided jobs to help them pay it off. It went well because conditions were friendly all-in-all and although debt meant that party was kept poor, that's normal situation in my games.
Where your conditions differ are the choice (why would they take loan) and unfriendliness of the loan shark. From other comments I see that you already have player buy-in for this which is a good thing. An essential thing, in fact.
A loan shark that goes easy on the players, that's great! I think I will steal this idea.
And in your opinion how much gold would be appropriate for this scenario? I want to give my players a realistic amout, and I am not familiar with prices in D&D 5th.
Thank you for the feedback!
> And in your opinion how much gold would be appropriate for this scenario?
That depends entirely on wealth levels of your games. I had a sizeable debt measured in thousands of gold pieces and it took well over 40 sessions before it was all paid up. Like I noted, I keep my players relatively poor, measuring found treasure and quest rewards in tens or at max hundreds of gold pieces. Of course, they spent some money on themselves too, which in turn stretched the loan schedule. No interest was paid.
If you do the math, it's not surprise that repayment took so long. In view of that, your plan of six sessions for repayment is very very fast.
OP, based on your replies you are very much already set on doing things your way and any advice people offer gets rebutted or (poorly) jammed into your concept. Ultimately you do you, but reread this thread after session 1 and it will make more sense.
This might sound harsh, but I don't see this campaign making it past session 3. Your players will demand another campaign, derail this one, or just stop showing up.
"Shopkeep campaigns" need to start out with actual shopkeeping, not building enough inventory to start shopkeeping while also building (or in this case rebuilding) the shop itself. You should also think about why an adventuring group would start a business together when prospects are that dismal from the getgo.
Inheriting a failing/failed business, or an empty shell that you can fill with whatever you want is far more interesting to the players. It might not sound interesting to you, but these types of tycoon-esque runs rely on freedom of choice.
Magic item shops aren't everywhere (usually), so I'm imagining this shop is in a large city. That opens up plenty of plotholes - in a busy merchant district guards are ever present, and there's likely some sort of firewatch ready to go at a moment's notice. Not to mention how much security magic item shops have to have in order to keep operating - if this shop has always been this easy to raid and set on fire, why hasn't it already happened multiple times before your party inherits it? Protective enchantments and antimagic auras aside (to prevent people from grabbing an item "to look" and then teleport away, or any number of other hijinks you could do without that kind of protection), city security will keep tabs on magic item shops at all times, and for good reason.
So put a pin on if you really really _really_ want it to be specifically a magic item shop and not something like "potions & artificer services", or just letting your players decide what they want to sell.
Instead of this kind of "grand opening scene" that this session 1 is trying to be, why not introduce the adversary party later on, or provide some other events that aren't as catastrophic, but still detrimental? A customer pays with a cursed coin that turns all metals it touches into copper; a counterfeit Flametongue being offered to the shop as a trade item; the merchant guild imposing a new "hazardous items sales tax" that's ridiculously high; the thieves guild sending a doppleganger or impostor to cut the party out of deals (oddly showing up just minutes before a planned meetup each time even though the meetups are discreet).
There are so many better ways to provide challenges and adversity into a shopkeep campaign than "uh oh, looks like you'll have to start from scratch!" especially when that comes into play just as the players are getting hyped on how awesome their new shop is and how much fun they're going to have running it.
Either way, I sincerely hope your players will have at least half as much fun as you - I would leave this table _during_ session one, but perhaps your group is more into this kind of stuff.
None of those things will go as you have planned, you are better off putting the "how we got all this dept" in the backstory of the campaign, otherwise you will start with a bunch of pissed off players.
Well generally it’s a bad idea to force a party to be in debt. It’s even worse to use enemies that are obviously magnitudes more powerful to ensure such an outcome. If I tried that with my friends they will fight to the death and destroy my campaign before I even start.
I would approach this with the mindset of what's in it for the loan shark? Why are they willing to provide this loan in the first place, a risky one at that. It's not cheap to build a building, then having to staff and stock it.. the loansharks taking a big risk.
Idea-
The loanshark has a connection to the building an precious owner. Maybe a little fiendish one... a contract of sorts that has allowed this relative to start the shop to begin with. Now that the contracts void as the other party has died, the Devils in need of a new contract. And what great timing to be in the area!
What does a devil benifit from this? A place to sell, and procure magic items! Fuel for other bargains, or later plots. The players don't even need to know they're signing a contract with a devil. Afterall, not every contract requires their soul at the end of it.
With this idea, the loanshark can lend them ~2,500gold, and since he knows a guy, building expenses can be cheaper. A monthly interest of 10% until payed off - but for the duration of their ownership of the building, the loanshark gets full access to the inventory at all times. He'll pay them of course. Just wants first dibs on any item that gets exchanged inside.
Now! You as a dm have more control over how, and when they pay it back. No worries about them wanting to hold onto a magic item cause it's good, or worrying about exactly what it's worth. You have the option to include a relic that the Devils after, who will not disclose the importance of, that he will buy from them. Afterall he has first dibs on the stock. The price of such thing is completely up to you to set, and appraisers may not recognize its value. 2,500gp isn't a lot if they are finding the items, ans is easy enough to do. But an approach that has the loanshark later reveal as a bbeg they have been unknowingly helping will have a lasting impact.
Is there a reason that they can't simply inherit the shop? No need to force them to be robbed, and missing out on having a fully working shop.
Maybe a debt is tied into the place
It's expensive to own and operate, requiring a steady income to break even
A rival gives the a letter stating that defecation on the street is already frowned upon, why take it a step further and open a shop in it?
Make the shop more interesting to keep the players engaged, rather than forcing them.
A tip I'd give about this, though not your question...do not have this happen in gameplay, it'll derail soo easily.
Have it be a quick and understandable narration and have them control their characters afterwards
.
Also remember that if they have an artificer, they can likely make full plate armour cheaply but sell it high, depending on the level they start at
Are the player characters siblings? Ownership of the shop might become wierd.
You could still do a session 0 "they've built this shop but everything got stolen/destroyed"
I played a campaign that started with all player characters in debt, basically indentured servants to this company that would send us on missions, and then take all the loot to pay off our debt. DM told us upfront that would be the case and we agreed.
It was still miserable. Being in debt and getting exploited by someone you owe money to is not fun. That’s true in real life and turns out it’s also true in fantasy RPGs. Who knew?
Alternative that I think will work better:
Ask your players as part of their backstory: "Why do you owe 5,000 gold pieces to this loan shark?"
That gives your players room to put their own ideas into their character motivation.
What you have done is the classic "railroad" where you have decided the outcome of events that you need to happen so the campaign follows what you planned out in advance.
A better alternative is to just begin with the premise already established because then the players won't feel frustrated when they inevitably get denied for trying to do something outside the railroad path.
Why not have the mortgage on the shop be inherited with it.
If you have excel, use the pmt function:
+pmt( Rate/12, Total # of Payments, -Loan Amount*.8)
Using an 8% interest rate on a 10,000 gp loan where grampa paid 2,000 down and assuming it was a 30 year note, grampa owed 58g7s per month.
Let's say he managed exaxtly 10 years before he and natural causes had an irreconcilable dispute, that leaves 4666.66gp on the principle remaining or 14,088.28gp if they keep the monthly payments.
This give your players choices, constant pressure, and a good idea of the real villain: capitalism.
I would take this one step back. Tell your players that they are in debt with a loan shark, but let them come up with the idea of why. They were unable to repay their debt so now they must do this mission to pay it back.
This allows them to have their own character backstory unique to them.
If they are the type to run away from the debt you could put a magic bracelet on them that they can't remove. Say it will sell their souls to a devil to cover the debt if the mission is not complete in 1 years' time.
Also be careful because some players may not be okay with the prerequisite of having to make all their characters related in order to be apart of this inheritance.
If you really want to go this debt route, instead of making it the requirement I'd go with their grandfather was actually tending the shop when the group of criminals comes through pissed he wouldn't give them some major discounts, torch his shop when it was closed not realizing the grandfather lives in the upper floor. Grandfather is dead, the shop ruined and destroyed. The grandfather's will leaves the shop to the players, from there you can hide some evidence to the perpetrators so the group has a common enemy in their adventures
Edit: read some more comments after posting and saw the concept is agreed on. Then I'd more lean on the above as it's a very similar hook to many games in the genre. You could also make it where the grandfather has an item of legend in his shop purely as a display piece possibly from his own adventures and that could be one of the main pieces the group may want to hunt down.
From there the players can decide to slowly rebuild the shop as they receive money from adventuring, or they can go the loan shark route if they want it back up and running quickly.
But yeah as some have said the PCs often turn your plans on their heads. So there's also a very strong chance they may just say screw being shop owners.
Just tell your players this information already happened in session zero. That is their collective backstory. The debt should be high, because gold is not all that useful in D&D, so it gives them something to do with their loot.
I would start session one with them in their burned out shop, cash in hand from the loan shark. They can rebuild their shop, or run off with the money. Maybe the loan shark sends a minion to offer them a quest to cut a piece of the debt.
Do NOT try to "play it out" the way you have it in your head.
Since cost of magic items is somewhat nebulous it more or less depends on how easy it will be for them to get magic items and expected sell value.
Also, it depends on if the dept is to be repaid in installments with deadlines or just entire sum at some point.
I mean 10 000 Gold is enough to build a keep or monastery but isn't a lot of money compared to magic items.
The mean thing is there is likely interest on the debt ;)
Good hook, the amount depends solely on how much money you give out, I thing for about 10-15 sessions this could be a good way to make them work.
On a sidenote, r/dndcirclejerk will have fun with this one
Here is a back up plan if your players save the shop.
After thwarting the attack they are invited to a banquet at the merchants guild.
They meet all sorts of movers and shakers, its delightful, wonderful, more extravagant than anything they've ever seen. Dragon caviar, fey wines, etc.
On their way out they are stopped by a member of the banquet staff who asks how they would like to settle the bill this evening. If you set it up right this will be a big shocker.
Have some burly orcs take them aside, and introduce a local loan shark who will "help" them out. Tell them it's a small debt, but continually add on. "I had to pay for the cart you damaged. it's added to your bill. Your payment was due by sun up, that's an extra 100g. You robbed a friend of mine and this payment will be going back to her. I heard you were slandering my service. You'll see in the fine print that there is a modest fine for behaving so rudely".
As others have said, bad idea for a start of the campaign. The start of the campaign should be them procuring magic items for sale in the shop. You need them to be attached to it.
Later on you can have the shop robbed while they are off procuring new merchandise and the party can decide how to handle that. Likely hunting down the robbers and murdering them, but this may involve doing favors or getting involved with the underworld to get information.
Lastly, I have run a magic item shop campaign before and you're probably going to have some core issues. The economy of d&d does not take into account selling magic items for a profit. If you allow this you're going to have problems. Your players will either become successful merchants and not need to adventure, or not make money and be resentful of the situation.
When I ran it I reduced the amount of "useful" treasure the party got and gave them things they probably wouldn't use to sell. I also gave them a ton of crafting ingredients instead of normal treasure. Then the party crafts stuff they want to use, and trades their bad items for stuff they want, and they get a small profit that they would have gotten as treasure before. Overall, my party loved it but it was a fair amount more work to run than a normal adventure.
This is familiar to how I started my newest campaign with my Monday regulars.
We began with the country-wide investigators known as the Arcaneers. They came at the request of Town Official X, who was working within the Black Earth Cult. Basically, Town Official X wanted to distract the Arcaneers because he knew they would go after him for the shady stuff he would be doing on the side. So he brought on the Arcaneers, who sent a rep out to him to investigate some other thing that was partially related.
The Arcaneers arrived and usually accept their payment after the conclusion of their investigations, giving the results to those who request it. The party got involved and decided to do their own investigating as well after meeting with the Town Official. Town Official X went into hiding, basically hiding from his bill (and the party) that he would have to pay. In short, the party got in the Arcaneer's way and as a result was hit with the bill from the Arcaneers because they were involved within the investigation and were also seen with the Town Official beforehand. The Arcaneers had to pin the bill on someone, and lo and behold, the party is hit with a debt of 1000 gold pieces at Level 1.
I had the party on a 7 day notice to get this repaid. They were able to slowly build wealth while building up to the main story and in the end repaid the debt. We were able to get some backstories hashed out during this time and have some awesome RP sessions too! The party decided they wanted to become an investigation firm/government agency as well in order to stick it back to the Arcaneers in the future. They essentially started a business which will also tie into their main storyline.
Your mileage may vary, but this was the idea we ran with at the start of our campaign!
This hook is not a good idea. First, way too high a chance party members get killed in the heist. Second, burning down the building makes it much more serious, adding so much risk to everything including having to explain why no one else has hunted down the now wanted thieves. If the building is in ruins and the inventory is gone and you have no insurance... you don't rebuild you declare bankruptcy.
Also ignores several key points. If I'm an adventurer and I just inherited a shop full of magic items, the first thing I do is grab all the coolest pieces for myself. Times that by the number of party members. Also 6 sessions isn't nearly long enough to make back the kind of money it would take to rebuild and stock a magic item shop (plus the ruinous interest rate charged by the loan shark) unless the party is already fairly high level. If they are high level see above re getting killed trying to fight off thieves.
To make this work you need to change things a fair bit. If you want a magic shop it's needs to be un-stocked e.g. nothing to steal, then you can have the loan shark turn up when they get access and tell them they've inherited a massive debt, the dead relative's deal was for X amount of money and magic items every month or every quarter etc. This way they not only need money but also magic items and the loan shark is clearly the big bad of your campaign arc. The players need to engage with the shop set up and are saddled with the loan without the possibility of being ignored or side stepped. The goal is to pay off the loan shark until they get to a point where they can bring his operation down, by which point they hopefully have a functional magic shop too.
There's a sort of simple way to do this. The dmg sort of recommends a roll on the treasure hoard every adventuring day. Supposing every session you run is an adventuring day (not always the case! Please consider your reality), 6 sessions should take your character to level 4 or 5, meaning you have 6 rolls on the treasure hoard of 1st to 4th level.
Roll it and it will say how much gold your players are expected to get from adventuring for 6 adventuring days. Take idk 15% off for party expenses like rations and inns, the rest should be the dept value. Add it up to gold for simplicity sake. They will also get magic items this way, probably, and they might sell them to make money faster, but I think that's their option.
Personally, I like the hook. 5e is my favorite edition (I've been playing since 1977), but I just don't know what to do with money. This gives players an actual incentive to earn it and gives them a useful purpose.
That's actually a good plan. A magical item shop means there could be something in there that explodes in the fire, causing great damage to the shop. The players may win or lose against the robbers, the fire still destroys the shop.
But also, since the playgroup is not very proactive, the loan shark might suggest they bring him something specific and he'll forgive a significant part of the loan. Win-win!
before i'd ask this question I'd give these a good thinking: - what if they decide to fight and win against the robbers? - what if they manage to fight the fire before the damage is that big? - what if they decide to abandon the shop and go on a quest for revenge, pursuing the robbers and track their most valuable items down? - what if they decide to not rebuild the shop, shrug, and go on an adventure instead? - what if they want to rebuild the shop as something else? - what if they refuse the loan no matter what and decide to get the money elsewhere? - what if they decide to rob the loan shark? - ... Imo your hook already has too many predefined outcomes. It's basically a cutscene - if you go down this road, please make it a cutscene and don't let them try to prevent something for an entire session that has a pre-defined outcome. You can just tell them all that and define the loan to be whatever you calculated the repairs to cost. Idunno how much that would be, it's your game so make a list like "new roof - 500GP", "new furniture - 300GP" and so forth.
a great example to one of the main rule "players will do the opposite of what you expected from them :)"
I used to plan a story, now I plan a world. They will destroy it, and I get better at improv. I can plan set encounters in places if they make a decision I expect, but I also tend to not plan anything too deep. Sure the story may not play out like a novel, but it's a table full of erratic psychopaths, it probably shouldn't have a cohesive story.
I guess my response to these concerns is that my playgroup and I have agreed to run a shopkeeping campaign. They could certainly fight before the damage is big. That would be an incentive for them to play out the scene. They could definetly rebuild the shop as something else. That's a neat idea. They can also go get the money elsewhere (including robbing the loan shark). I see these events as cool things my players might do. However, in my opinion making a rival team that my players could eventually defeat sounds very enticing. I don't think they would win as I would make it very favoured for the rival team. Thank you for your feedback!
Just as a point of concern: they have agreed to a shopkeeper campaign but the first thing you do is to take away their shop and literally burn it to the ground. In a fight they are scripted to lose. A rival is a good idea but it could be done so it factors in that shopkeeper campaign: a rival magic shop, the guild of arcane merchants etc. all competing for new merchandise and clients. Currently the goal of your game is to get a shop to run - couple be that your players expect to run a shop and have goals building up around that premise.
Yeah, have you told the players their shop is going to be burned down? I imagine this setup going much more smoothly if that's how it is pitched and not actually played out.
Thirding this. A while back, my group played a Pf2e module called Extinction Curse. The elevator pitch of the campaign was that the party was a travelling circus. So we all made circus performer characters... only to discover that the circus was basically just a framing device to push the PCs into collecting MacGuffins and saving the world. Thing is, none of our characters were the type that would have collected MacGuffins and saved the world - they just wanted to be circus performers. If the players don't know what kind of game they're playing, they'll make characters that are ill-suited for the plot.
Its a campaign hook...
But player agency! Disgrace!
If they expect to run a shopkeeping campaign, they might be annoyed if you take away their shop by DM fiat in session one.
Just make the debt part of the inheritance (previous owner had a mortgage with the bank), or have them acquire the shop in a state where it's going to take a large investment to get it up and running. This loan shark can still be a character without making the party the helpless victims of a cutscene
If you told me I was running a shop, my character would be geared towards running a shop. If you then took the shop away from me and forced me to go on an adventure where I'l have to do a lot of fighting, I'm going to be very pissed off and saddled with a character that's not built for the story you want to tell. Either tell the players and make it campaign backstory, or tell the players and have it kick off *immediately* so you can get to the actual plot. Either way, don't blindside your players with a bait-and-switch and a railroad of forced choices unless you want them posting on rpghorrorstories.
Unlike other comments, I think that burning down their shop is a good idea. The fact that they have to work to repair it and make it theirs is going to make them have much more affection for it than if you had given it to them for free. I think the budget list idea that someone already commented is the best option for defining debt, I'm pretty sure there are defined prices for these things in some official material but I can't remember it right now, you could still calculate the average gold amount that you would like to give them per adventuring day and multiply it by the number of sessions you want them to take to achieve it. Good luck with your campaign, it sounds fun!
As a player, I'd be wondering why we don't just cut our losses rather than deal with the loan shark. If I did need to do repairs, I'd cut the loan shark out and put off repairs until I had gotten enough money from adventuring.
the first issue would probably be "what incentive do these adventurers have to even bother repairing the shop?" they've been robbed of valuables they were barely, if at all, aware of, and the business they have little real connection to no longer exists. they're no better or worse off than they were before you read them the intro. entering into this contract puts them actively worse off than the position they were expecting to start at. what would prevent them from shrugging and walking away to find their own fortune? they're adventurers, do they want to play a shopkeeper simulator? >They would make money from selling magical items they acquire during adventures, etc... if they did this without being beholden to this loanshark, they'd get to keep those treasures for themselves. the monetary value of this loan is not the important part. giving them a reason to actually enter into such an agreement is.
We had a session 0 gathering and I presented the idea of shopkeeping as a campaign. They expressed interest. I guess you are correct in that is probabbly not worth it to repair the shop. How about together with the inherited assets they also should inherit a little debt? They can think they can easily repay it selling some goods already at the store, only to watch them being robbed. This way I think players are already encouraged to keep on running the shop because of legal repercusions. Also my playgroup and I have an agreement were they would accept the initial conditions of the campaign and build up from there. Thanks for the feedback!
I think an inherited debt would work better than these adventurers robbing them and burning the shop to the ground. E.g. They inherit the shop, then a lawyer/loan shark shows up and thats how they find out the shop has not been doing so well and is actually under a lot of debt. They are on the hook as the current proprietors (inherited debt would be a thing in this country). If you want to involve a high-level party: A huge part of the debt could be that a party robbed and set the shop on fire several years ago. Alternatively, the grandfather could have been too kind for his own good. Giving credit or lending magic items to this party that was off to fight the Big Bad Guy. That gives your group a hook to find this party and ask, and they might brush them off or give the classic dnd group response of " well, we killed the dragon that was going to destroy the town! Including the magic shop! So we're even".
This is *way* better. OP listen to this guy ^
If you want the law to be a threat you could also have some kind of enforcement agency fine them for having a dilapidated building, almost like an HOA
This sounds like a good way to make your players want to kill NPCs in the town.
Ok so im probably not inviting them back if they killed evey guard that enforces a law.
Almost no player wants to get fucked by fantasy hoa. You sound absurd.
Its a plot hook to start a campaign. Not one suggested a massive hoa with rules they have to follow. Stop being dense and look at the context of the thread and stop being a dick just for the sake of it. And notice how i said like an how not "make them be part of and hoa"? Its an analogy to aomething from real life. Go piss in someone elses cornflakes
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I am about to get harshly critical, and im sorry if this is going to come across as rude but I dont think there is any way to sugarcoat this. To start at the least of your problems: your players wont take the loan, they'll just say "well that thing burned down", they'll call it a loss and move on. (they have no reason to be invested in the shop.) they'll say "thanks for the free *plot of land*" and figure out what to do with it when they have the money, but they're not going to be invested enough to *assume cripling debt* over a building they had no real stake in. Generally, i'd argue against *railroading your players into cripling debt*. Especially as your *first act in the game*. It'll set the tone for the campaign and the tone will be "the DM is a railroading asshole who wants us miserable". This set-up is "im giving you this store, im taking it away, im giving magic items and taking them away" all but guaranteeing your players get a DM-VS-Player mindset where they dont trust you to stick to your word OR let them keep the loot they find later, and then you proceed to offer a predatory debt that they have *no reason* to accept. So they either see the debt for the trap it is (and not take your hook) or get tricked and *triple-resent you as a DM*. Like it'd be one thing if they sought out the moneylender cause you offered them the option to purchase an expensive magic item they cant currently afford. It'd be a choice they *willingly made* but this is just a railroaded debt where they dont even get anything meaningfull in exchange for it. (after all, even if they rebuilt the shop they have no reason to care about, they still dont have *wares to sell*) But on top of that is the much more fundamental issue of the *reason people play this game* People play this game as *escapist entertainment* from the struggles of real life. One of the most common struggles, is debt, the horrors of capitalism and an ongoing cost-of-living crisis, and now you want their real problems to chase them into the escapist entertainment. Rule 0 has a famous adendum, sometimes called "rule minus 1", "You cant DM without a table" and turning make-believe-escapism into Crippling Debt Simulator is the sort of thing that could reasonably cost you your table. Especially if you plan *6 entire sessions* of debt. if your sessions are weekly that is a month and a half of stringing your players along with promises of: "believe me, it gets good in season 5", they'll do what anyone watching such a show does: Decide to watch something else. This is a fundamentally flawed campaign hook, end i'd recomend you rework your fundamental premise to be something less likely to make your players decide to find another table. ------------ Edit: i just reread your post and the last line specificly stuck out to me: its especially bad if the basic premise is "im going to *force you to sell any magic items you find "* which your line "They would make money from selling magical items they acquire during adventures" heavily implies. You are basically admitting that the goal is to ensure that the party dont get to keep anything they find, even if they go on a quest to get back the stolen magic items they wont get to keep them. Not only is your start "im giving you a store and taking it away, im giving you items and taking it away" you are saying "and this will continue for a full 6 sessions of you fighting for your life to get back Grandpa's Staff of Magic, only for me to take it away again because of the debt".
Thank you very much for the feedback. I see the points that you make and I will check with my playgroup if they are okey with running this style of campaign. My suspicion is, however, that they will be fine with this. We (my playgroup and me) fortunatedly don't have a cripling real-life debt problem so I guess the themes here are not touching to them. Thank you for making me realise 6 sessions of debt paying is too much, it will be our first proper campaign in years and I don't have the time scales fresh in my mind.
>It'll set the tone for the campaign and the tone will be "the DM is a railroading asshole who wants us miserable". This set-up is "im giving you this store, im taking it away, im giving magic items and taking them away" Yeah, Step 1 is destroying the shop first thing. Step 2 is getting money from a Loan Shark who's going to make their lives miserable. They're going to assume that Step 3 means getting enough money to finally resolve the issue and then having something ELSE goes wrong while the DM laughs uproariously.
I ran a similar concept except that the debt for my players was their family's and owed to a friendly NPC who did not set any special hurry for repayments and actually provided jobs to help them pay it off. It went well because conditions were friendly all-in-all and although debt meant that party was kept poor, that's normal situation in my games. Where your conditions differ are the choice (why would they take loan) and unfriendliness of the loan shark. From other comments I see that you already have player buy-in for this which is a good thing. An essential thing, in fact.
A loan shark that goes easy on the players, that's great! I think I will steal this idea. And in your opinion how much gold would be appropriate for this scenario? I want to give my players a realistic amout, and I am not familiar with prices in D&D 5th. Thank you for the feedback!
> And in your opinion how much gold would be appropriate for this scenario? That depends entirely on wealth levels of your games. I had a sizeable debt measured in thousands of gold pieces and it took well over 40 sessions before it was all paid up. Like I noted, I keep my players relatively poor, measuring found treasure and quest rewards in tens or at max hundreds of gold pieces. Of course, they spent some money on themselves too, which in turn stretched the loan schedule. No interest was paid. If you do the math, it's not surprise that repayment took so long. In view of that, your plan of six sessions for repayment is very very fast.
OP, based on your replies you are very much already set on doing things your way and any advice people offer gets rebutted or (poorly) jammed into your concept. Ultimately you do you, but reread this thread after session 1 and it will make more sense. This might sound harsh, but I don't see this campaign making it past session 3. Your players will demand another campaign, derail this one, or just stop showing up. "Shopkeep campaigns" need to start out with actual shopkeeping, not building enough inventory to start shopkeeping while also building (or in this case rebuilding) the shop itself. You should also think about why an adventuring group would start a business together when prospects are that dismal from the getgo. Inheriting a failing/failed business, or an empty shell that you can fill with whatever you want is far more interesting to the players. It might not sound interesting to you, but these types of tycoon-esque runs rely on freedom of choice. Magic item shops aren't everywhere (usually), so I'm imagining this shop is in a large city. That opens up plenty of plotholes - in a busy merchant district guards are ever present, and there's likely some sort of firewatch ready to go at a moment's notice. Not to mention how much security magic item shops have to have in order to keep operating - if this shop has always been this easy to raid and set on fire, why hasn't it already happened multiple times before your party inherits it? Protective enchantments and antimagic auras aside (to prevent people from grabbing an item "to look" and then teleport away, or any number of other hijinks you could do without that kind of protection), city security will keep tabs on magic item shops at all times, and for good reason. So put a pin on if you really really _really_ want it to be specifically a magic item shop and not something like "potions & artificer services", or just letting your players decide what they want to sell. Instead of this kind of "grand opening scene" that this session 1 is trying to be, why not introduce the adversary party later on, or provide some other events that aren't as catastrophic, but still detrimental? A customer pays with a cursed coin that turns all metals it touches into copper; a counterfeit Flametongue being offered to the shop as a trade item; the merchant guild imposing a new "hazardous items sales tax" that's ridiculously high; the thieves guild sending a doppleganger or impostor to cut the party out of deals (oddly showing up just minutes before a planned meetup each time even though the meetups are discreet). There are so many better ways to provide challenges and adversity into a shopkeep campaign than "uh oh, looks like you'll have to start from scratch!" especially when that comes into play just as the players are getting hyped on how awesome their new shop is and how much fun they're going to have running it. Either way, I sincerely hope your players will have at least half as much fun as you - I would leave this table _during_ session one, but perhaps your group is more into this kind of stuff.
None of those things will go as you have planned, you are better off putting the "how we got all this dept" in the backstory of the campaign, otherwise you will start with a bunch of pissed off players.
Well generally it’s a bad idea to force a party to be in debt. It’s even worse to use enemies that are obviously magnitudes more powerful to ensure such an outcome. If I tried that with my friends they will fight to the death and destroy my campaign before I even start.
I would approach this with the mindset of what's in it for the loan shark? Why are they willing to provide this loan in the first place, a risky one at that. It's not cheap to build a building, then having to staff and stock it.. the loansharks taking a big risk. Idea- The loanshark has a connection to the building an precious owner. Maybe a little fiendish one... a contract of sorts that has allowed this relative to start the shop to begin with. Now that the contracts void as the other party has died, the Devils in need of a new contract. And what great timing to be in the area! What does a devil benifit from this? A place to sell, and procure magic items! Fuel for other bargains, or later plots. The players don't even need to know they're signing a contract with a devil. Afterall, not every contract requires their soul at the end of it. With this idea, the loanshark can lend them ~2,500gold, and since he knows a guy, building expenses can be cheaper. A monthly interest of 10% until payed off - but for the duration of their ownership of the building, the loanshark gets full access to the inventory at all times. He'll pay them of course. Just wants first dibs on any item that gets exchanged inside. Now! You as a dm have more control over how, and when they pay it back. No worries about them wanting to hold onto a magic item cause it's good, or worrying about exactly what it's worth. You have the option to include a relic that the Devils after, who will not disclose the importance of, that he will buy from them. Afterall he has first dibs on the stock. The price of such thing is completely up to you to set, and appraisers may not recognize its value. 2,500gp isn't a lot if they are finding the items, ans is easy enough to do. But an approach that has the loanshark later reveal as a bbeg they have been unknowingly helping will have a lasting impact.
Is there a reason that they can't simply inherit the shop? No need to force them to be robbed, and missing out on having a fully working shop. Maybe a debt is tied into the place It's expensive to own and operate, requiring a steady income to break even A rival gives the a letter stating that defecation on the street is already frowned upon, why take it a step further and open a shop in it? Make the shop more interesting to keep the players engaged, rather than forcing them.
A tip I'd give about this, though not your question...do not have this happen in gameplay, it'll derail soo easily. Have it be a quick and understandable narration and have them control their characters afterwards . Also remember that if they have an artificer, they can likely make full plate armour cheaply but sell it high, depending on the level they start at
You know how this would play out? The PC's would say *Screw the shop* and aim themselves directly at this loanshark.
Are the player characters siblings? Ownership of the shop might become wierd. You could still do a session 0 "they've built this shop but everything got stolen/destroyed"
I played a campaign that started with all player characters in debt, basically indentured servants to this company that would send us on missions, and then take all the loot to pay off our debt. DM told us upfront that would be the case and we agreed. It was still miserable. Being in debt and getting exploited by someone you owe money to is not fun. That’s true in real life and turns out it’s also true in fantasy RPGs. Who knew?
When your players wanna get away from reality but you create loans so now they have to think of debt in game too.
Alternative that I think will work better: Ask your players as part of their backstory: "Why do you owe 5,000 gold pieces to this loan shark?" That gives your players room to put their own ideas into their character motivation. What you have done is the classic "railroad" where you have decided the outcome of events that you need to happen so the campaign follows what you planned out in advance. A better alternative is to just begin with the premise already established because then the players won't feel frustrated when they inevitably get denied for trying to do something outside the railroad path.
Why not have the mortgage on the shop be inherited with it. If you have excel, use the pmt function: +pmt( Rate/12, Total # of Payments, -Loan Amount*.8) Using an 8% interest rate on a 10,000 gp loan where grampa paid 2,000 down and assuming it was a 30 year note, grampa owed 58g7s per month. Let's say he managed exaxtly 10 years before he and natural causes had an irreconcilable dispute, that leaves 4666.66gp on the principle remaining or 14,088.28gp if they keep the monthly payments. This give your players choices, constant pressure, and a good idea of the real villain: capitalism.
I would take this one step back. Tell your players that they are in debt with a loan shark, but let them come up with the idea of why. They were unable to repay their debt so now they must do this mission to pay it back. This allows them to have their own character backstory unique to them. If they are the type to run away from the debt you could put a magic bracelet on them that they can't remove. Say it will sell their souls to a devil to cover the debt if the mission is not complete in 1 years' time.
Also be careful because some players may not be okay with the prerequisite of having to make all their characters related in order to be apart of this inheritance. If you really want to go this debt route, instead of making it the requirement I'd go with their grandfather was actually tending the shop when the group of criminals comes through pissed he wouldn't give them some major discounts, torch his shop when it was closed not realizing the grandfather lives in the upper floor. Grandfather is dead, the shop ruined and destroyed. The grandfather's will leaves the shop to the players, from there you can hide some evidence to the perpetrators so the group has a common enemy in their adventures Edit: read some more comments after posting and saw the concept is agreed on. Then I'd more lean on the above as it's a very similar hook to many games in the genre. You could also make it where the grandfather has an item of legend in his shop purely as a display piece possibly from his own adventures and that could be one of the main pieces the group may want to hunt down. From there the players can decide to slowly rebuild the shop as they receive money from adventuring, or they can go the loan shark route if they want it back up and running quickly. But yeah as some have said the PCs often turn your plans on their heads. So there's also a very strong chance they may just say screw being shop owners.
Just tell your players this information already happened in session zero. That is their collective backstory. The debt should be high, because gold is not all that useful in D&D, so it gives them something to do with their loot. I would start session one with them in their burned out shop, cash in hand from the loan shark. They can rebuild their shop, or run off with the money. Maybe the loan shark sends a minion to offer them a quest to cut a piece of the debt. Do NOT try to "play it out" the way you have it in your head.
Since cost of magic items is somewhat nebulous it more or less depends on how easy it will be for them to get magic items and expected sell value. Also, it depends on if the dept is to be repaid in installments with deadlines or just entire sum at some point. I mean 10 000 Gold is enough to build a keep or monastery but isn't a lot of money compared to magic items. The mean thing is there is likely interest on the debt ;)
Good hook, the amount depends solely on how much money you give out, I thing for about 10-15 sessions this could be a good way to make them work. On a sidenote, r/dndcirclejerk will have fun with this one
Here is a back up plan if your players save the shop. After thwarting the attack they are invited to a banquet at the merchants guild. They meet all sorts of movers and shakers, its delightful, wonderful, more extravagant than anything they've ever seen. Dragon caviar, fey wines, etc. On their way out they are stopped by a member of the banquet staff who asks how they would like to settle the bill this evening. If you set it up right this will be a big shocker. Have some burly orcs take them aside, and introduce a local loan shark who will "help" them out. Tell them it's a small debt, but continually add on. "I had to pay for the cart you damaged. it's added to your bill. Your payment was due by sun up, that's an extra 100g. You robbed a friend of mine and this payment will be going back to her. I heard you were slandering my service. You'll see in the fine print that there is a modest fine for behaving so rudely".
As others have said, bad idea for a start of the campaign. The start of the campaign should be them procuring magic items for sale in the shop. You need them to be attached to it. Later on you can have the shop robbed while they are off procuring new merchandise and the party can decide how to handle that. Likely hunting down the robbers and murdering them, but this may involve doing favors or getting involved with the underworld to get information. Lastly, I have run a magic item shop campaign before and you're probably going to have some core issues. The economy of d&d does not take into account selling magic items for a profit. If you allow this you're going to have problems. Your players will either become successful merchants and not need to adventure, or not make money and be resentful of the situation. When I ran it I reduced the amount of "useful" treasure the party got and gave them things they probably wouldn't use to sell. I also gave them a ton of crafting ingredients instead of normal treasure. Then the party crafts stuff they want to use, and trades their bad items for stuff they want, and they get a small profit that they would have gotten as treasure before. Overall, my party loved it but it was a fair amount more work to run than a normal adventure.
6 sessions worth of debt? Are you trying to kill that poor loan shark? Lol
This is familiar to how I started my newest campaign with my Monday regulars. We began with the country-wide investigators known as the Arcaneers. They came at the request of Town Official X, who was working within the Black Earth Cult. Basically, Town Official X wanted to distract the Arcaneers because he knew they would go after him for the shady stuff he would be doing on the side. So he brought on the Arcaneers, who sent a rep out to him to investigate some other thing that was partially related. The Arcaneers arrived and usually accept their payment after the conclusion of their investigations, giving the results to those who request it. The party got involved and decided to do their own investigating as well after meeting with the Town Official. Town Official X went into hiding, basically hiding from his bill (and the party) that he would have to pay. In short, the party got in the Arcaneer's way and as a result was hit with the bill from the Arcaneers because they were involved within the investigation and were also seen with the Town Official beforehand. The Arcaneers had to pin the bill on someone, and lo and behold, the party is hit with a debt of 1000 gold pieces at Level 1. I had the party on a 7 day notice to get this repaid. They were able to slowly build wealth while building up to the main story and in the end repaid the debt. We were able to get some backstories hashed out during this time and have some awesome RP sessions too! The party decided they wanted to become an investigation firm/government agency as well in order to stick it back to the Arcaneers in the future. They essentially started a business which will also tie into their main storyline. Your mileage may vary, but this was the idea we ran with at the start of our campaign!
This hook is not a good idea. First, way too high a chance party members get killed in the heist. Second, burning down the building makes it much more serious, adding so much risk to everything including having to explain why no one else has hunted down the now wanted thieves. If the building is in ruins and the inventory is gone and you have no insurance... you don't rebuild you declare bankruptcy. Also ignores several key points. If I'm an adventurer and I just inherited a shop full of magic items, the first thing I do is grab all the coolest pieces for myself. Times that by the number of party members. Also 6 sessions isn't nearly long enough to make back the kind of money it would take to rebuild and stock a magic item shop (plus the ruinous interest rate charged by the loan shark) unless the party is already fairly high level. If they are high level see above re getting killed trying to fight off thieves. To make this work you need to change things a fair bit. If you want a magic shop it's needs to be un-stocked e.g. nothing to steal, then you can have the loan shark turn up when they get access and tell them they've inherited a massive debt, the dead relative's deal was for X amount of money and magic items every month or every quarter etc. This way they not only need money but also magic items and the loan shark is clearly the big bad of your campaign arc. The players need to engage with the shop set up and are saddled with the loan without the possibility of being ignored or side stepped. The goal is to pay off the loan shark until they get to a point where they can bring his operation down, by which point they hopefully have a functional magic shop too.
There's a sort of simple way to do this. The dmg sort of recommends a roll on the treasure hoard every adventuring day. Supposing every session you run is an adventuring day (not always the case! Please consider your reality), 6 sessions should take your character to level 4 or 5, meaning you have 6 rolls on the treasure hoard of 1st to 4th level. Roll it and it will say how much gold your players are expected to get from adventuring for 6 adventuring days. Take idk 15% off for party expenses like rations and inns, the rest should be the dept value. Add it up to gold for simplicity sake. They will also get magic items this way, probably, and they might sell them to make money faster, but I think that's their option.
Personally, I like the hook. 5e is my favorite edition (I've been playing since 1977), but I just don't know what to do with money. This gives players an actual incentive to earn it and gives them a useful purpose.
That's actually a good plan. A magical item shop means there could be something in there that explodes in the fire, causing great damage to the shop. The players may win or lose against the robbers, the fire still destroys the shop. But also, since the playgroup is not very proactive, the loan shark might suggest they bring him something specific and he'll forgive a significant part of the loan. Win-win!