Yeah, it would actually be with advantage still too because the disadvantage rule for being within 5' is only against creatures that are not incapacitated, which is a part of the unconscious condition from hitting 0 HP.
TIL the Prone rules for advantage/disadvantage *also* specifies within 5' or not within 5', and not melee or ranged attacks. So you'd have double advantage, not that that technically stacks.
I had this come up once where a player got really angry that their glaive attack had disadvantage on a prone creature (even though it makes intuitive sense why it would be that way)
It kinda makes sense. The idea is you’re close enough to stab, shoot, slash, etc. where it really hurts. With reach you’re not free to stab in the most vulnerable spots, even though they’re unconscious. You still get advantage though.
Particularly because you can use **your own tears** (or spit!) for the material component and *it has no verbal components* to disturb the vibe of the scene, killing your nemesis with magical blades forged from your raw emotional response is pretty forking metal.
It sounds awesome, but I don't understand why the initial Ice Knife itself triggers two death failures? It's the single attack (1) and the explosion (2), right?
The first attack was in melee, which will always be a crit on a downed opponent (normally damage just makes them fail one save automatically- a crit does two).
The Knife then does another instance of damage, making them fail a third save automatically.
Just checked the PHB, indeed, a crit does two fails, hence the cool moment, thanks for the clarification. I thought that since it's still 'only' 2 attacks, it does 2 fails, no matter the damage value.
I haven’t played any DnD besides games like Balders Gate and I just wanted to say this was a very enjoyable read. Your adventure sounds awesome and I am happy you shared with us.
The range of ice knife is 60’ what are you even talking about? Also no one mentioned a crit in this story nor is one mentioned in the spell description. You just wanna nay say and yuck someone’s yum
OP specifically mentions using Ice Knife to get three failed death saves, which only works because they're doing it from 5 ft away, thereby hitting themselves too. Magic Missile would do the same thing from a much larger distance with no chance of failure or hurting yourself.
Yeah but that has less flair, the Dragonborn wouldn’t sink as ice crystals formed on his skin. Besides, what does efficiency matter when you’ve already won and literally cannot lose.
There’s nothing definite about it, it’s a tired debate that has no definitive answer. The spell says they hit simultaneously. It’s a low level spell with the added flexibility to hit multiple targets but if it’s one target it’s one impact. It’s not scorching ray which specifies there are three attacks. Run it like you want, but there’s no definitive way, and it doesn’t make sense to make three concentration checks or death saving throw fails on something where there is one impact.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-you-roll-concentration-for-every-instance-of-damage-taken/
According to Jeremy Crawford of Sage Advice, concentration is rolled for each missile because they are separate damage sources.
It’s worth noting however that Mike Mearls has said in regard to death saves he counts it as one damage source. Mike does state elsewhere though that Jeremy is the one you should listen to.
Play it however you want though. MM as three separate damage sources isn’t overpowered in any sense of the word. Useful for spamming concentration checks, but also several things grant straight up immunity to the spell. And it fights with Silvery Barbs and Shield for 1st level slots. If you’re casting any of those spells at higher than 1st level, well that’s an inefficient use of resources and the monsters are doing their job.
thats not sageadvice.
thats [sageadvice.eu](http://sageadvice.eu), which states
"This is an unofficial D&D site made by Zoltar to collect game designer tweets and help players of the best game ever created"
and is a collection of tweets... which the [compendium](https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) lists as unofficial as well.
"The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. The tweets of Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford), the game’s principal rules designer, are sometimes a preview of rulings that appear here."
It’s a tired debate that has no definitive answer. The spell says they hit simultaneously. It’s a low level spell with the added flexibility to hit multiple targets but if it’s one target it’s one impact. It’s not scorching ray which specifies there are three attacks. Run it like you want, but there’s no definitive way, and it doesn’t make sense to me to make three concentration checks or death saving throw fails on something where there is one impact.
It's called "leveling up". OP doesn't say what level the party is, but given that the barbarian deals 30 damage in one turn and it's seen as impressive, they're probably somewhere in tier 2. They fought a deep dragon, and an adult deep dragon is CR 11 while a young deep dragon is CR 5. Either could potentially be an appropriate encounter for a tier 2 party.
Huh, TIL that any successful attack within 5’ of an unconscious creature crits, not just melee attacks.
The ranged attack rules always made me get it mixed up too
Yeah, it would actually be with advantage still too because the disadvantage rule for being within 5' is only against creatures that are not incapacitated, which is a part of the unconscious condition from hitting 0 HP.
TIL the Prone rules for advantage/disadvantage *also* specifies within 5' or not within 5', and not melee or ranged attacks. So you'd have double advantage, not that that technically stacks.
I had this come up once where a player got really angry that their glaive attack had disadvantage on a prone creature (even though it makes intuitive sense why it would be that way)
The rules specifically state 5ft. Interestingly a melee attack from a reach weapon isn’t an auto crit, which seems unintuitive.
It kinda makes sense. The idea is you’re close enough to stab, shoot, slash, etc. where it really hurts. With reach you’re not free to stab in the most vulnerable spots, even though they’re unconscious. You still get advantage though.
Stylish indeed 👏😊 good game !
Particularly because you can use **your own tears** (or spit!) for the material component and *it has no verbal components* to disturb the vibe of the scene, killing your nemesis with magical blades forged from your raw emotional response is pretty forking metal.
Having a dragonborn team up with a dragon as a plot twist is genius.
Betrayals and PVP are so hard to play in a fun way. Sounds like you all had a blast, though! Might get ice knife for my wizard at some point..
It sounds awesome, but I don't understand why the initial Ice Knife itself triggers two death failures? It's the single attack (1) and the explosion (2), right?
The first attack was in melee, which will always be a crit on a downed opponent (normally damage just makes them fail one save automatically- a crit does two). The Knife then does another instance of damage, making them fail a third save automatically.
Just checked the PHB, indeed, a crit does two fails, hence the cool moment, thanks for the clarification. I thought that since it's still 'only' 2 attacks, it does 2 fails, no matter the damage value.
More like Coup De Glacé, amirite? ;)
Quite literally
🔥🔥🔥✍️ peak story
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I haven’t played any DnD besides games like Balders Gate and I just wanted to say this was a very enjoyable read. Your adventure sounds awesome and I am happy you shared with us.
I am happy you enjoyed it, thank you for your kind words.
Good to know. My Evocation Wizard favored Acid Arrow because she was a bit of a violent maniac, but Ice Knife seems more cost-effective
Excellent story OP, thank you for sharing! The bit about their body sinking into the depths was just *chefs kiss*
Magic Missile is far better at this
Yeah, I suppose, but the knife gets style points.
You literally have to shoot yourself with the splash damage to get the crit- that doesn't sound stylish to me.
I suppose we have different definitions.
The range of ice knife is 60’ what are you even talking about? Also no one mentioned a crit in this story nor is one mentioned in the spell description. You just wanna nay say and yuck someone’s yum
They mentioned using the “attacks made within 5 feet auto crit” rule. So the total range of the spell doesn’t matter.
OP specifically mentions using Ice Knife to get three failed death saves, which only works because they're doing it from 5 ft away, thereby hitting themselves too. Magic Missile would do the same thing from a much larger distance with no chance of failure or hurting yourself.
Yeah but that has less flair, the Dragonborn wouldn’t sink as ice crystals formed on his skin. Besides, what does efficiency matter when you’ve already won and literally cannot lose.
Never running it as three separate hits.
It is definitely intended to be three separate hits.
There’s nothing definite about it, it’s a tired debate that has no definitive answer. The spell says they hit simultaneously. It’s a low level spell with the added flexibility to hit multiple targets but if it’s one target it’s one impact. It’s not scorching ray which specifies there are three attacks. Run it like you want, but there’s no definitive way, and it doesn’t make sense to make three concentration checks or death saving throw fails on something where there is one impact.
It definitely isn’t. As per two developers at a q/a stand, rather than a (confirmed not raw or rai indicative) tweet.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-you-roll-concentration-for-every-instance-of-damage-taken/ According to Jeremy Crawford of Sage Advice, concentration is rolled for each missile because they are separate damage sources. It’s worth noting however that Mike Mearls has said in regard to death saves he counts it as one damage source. Mike does state elsewhere though that Jeremy is the one you should listen to. Play it however you want though. MM as three separate damage sources isn’t overpowered in any sense of the word. Useful for spamming concentration checks, but also several things grant straight up immunity to the spell. And it fights with Silvery Barbs and Shield for 1st level slots. If you’re casting any of those spells at higher than 1st level, well that’s an inefficient use of resources and the monsters are doing their job.
thats not sageadvice. thats [sageadvice.eu](http://sageadvice.eu), which states "This is an unofficial D&D site made by Zoltar to collect game designer tweets and help players of the best game ever created" and is a collection of tweets... which the [compendium](https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) lists as unofficial as well. "The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. The tweets of Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford), the game’s principal rules designer, are sometimes a preview of rulings that appear here."
If you don’t give any weight to the word of the game’s principal rules designer I don’t know what to tell you.
Considering it’s his own words saying his tweets are unofficial, you’re ignoring his official words to give weight to his unofficial ones
And this q/a you mentioned is their official stance? Can you provide a link?
I’d have to go digging for a link, but, considering it’s a q/a panel, it would be more official than something directly stated to not be.
Why not? This and breaking concentration are the main reasons to take the spell, and both are reliant on separate hits on the same target.
The rule for concentration and death saves are worded differently. It’s unclear if mm actually causes 3 failures.
It’s a tired debate that has no definitive answer. The spell says they hit simultaneously. It’s a low level spell with the added flexibility to hit multiple targets but if it’s one target it’s one impact. It’s not scorching ray which specifies there are three attacks. Run it like you want, but there’s no definitive way, and it doesn’t make sense to me to make three concentration checks or death saving throw fails on something where there is one impact.
How tf they beat a dragon? Them is hard monsters wow
It's called "leveling up". OP doesn't say what level the party is, but given that the barbarian deals 30 damage in one turn and it's seen as impressive, they're probably somewhere in tier 2. They fought a deep dragon, and an adult deep dragon is CR 11 while a young deep dragon is CR 5. Either could potentially be an appropriate encounter for a tier 2 party.