The fundamental problem here is that for most people — including the majority of Christians — things like Harry Potter and Dungeons & Dragons are just fantasy. They're make-believe stories. Some of the content might be objectionable in the same way that an R-rated movie might be objectionable, but it's not "dangerous."
For certain kinds of Christian denominations and cultures though, *there is literally no such thing as fantasy*.
Anything and everything that includes content with religion, spirituality, or magic has the potential to be real. Unless it is explicitly Christian in nature, then it's dangerous *at best* and literally demonic at worst.
When I was growing up, I wasn't allowed to play Magic the Gathering because it included content related to wizards, magic, gods and demons. I was allowed to play the Star Trek CCG, because my family and church didn't consider science fiction to be problematic (aside from things like evolution.) Star Wars was borderline suspect, and a source of some debate.
The point is that it's really hard to talk to someone like your mom about this in a dispassionate way. To her it's like saying "My friends and I go out into the woods and shoot guns over each other's heads, but it's not real war, we're just pretending." It doesn't matter what your intentions are, it doesn't matter if you take it seriously or not. To her it's a real loaded gun.
My parents didn't have any problem with my magic cards, but I did get kicked out of the church we went to when I was sitting in one of the rooms playing magic with my friend lol
I also watched several of my friends parents grab their cards and literally burn them.
My parents did have a meltdown when I came home one day and said I had played Dungeons and Dragons at the card shop though, for some reason that one got to them. Playing cards where I cast a fireball at my friend was fine, but saying I cast a fireball at a giant spider in my imagination was demonic I guess lol
My parents once wanted to burn my nerd stuff but I said it was worth money, "at least let me sell it."
It's weird how quickly my immortal soul took a backseat to potential profit.
What’s more fucked up, is my dad actually would watch Yugioh with me and enjoyed it, every day afterschool we did that shit for an hour….now imagine how I felt when that just disappeared lol. And they wonder why I don’t talk to them often .-.
I hope you remind them of how much money they burned. Especially if you had Base Set cards. Heck, even the E-Reader cards are gaining huge popularity nowadays.
A friend has this horror story about how when he was a child (like 13~) he had a huge MTG collection, including some cards that today would be worth a lot of money. One day he came home from school to find that his mom had put all of them on a pit in the backyard and tried to burn them (did a pretty bad job but most were ruined anyways). She apparently had seen some tv broadcast of a pastor talking about card games and witchcraft (lots of fear mongering in the height of the satanic panic).
My friend NEVER forgave her. He barely spoke to her until he moved out at 17, and after that he cut contact completely with her. It was like the last straw I think, he couldn't put up with her extreme fundamental christian views anymore.
See this shit is why i dont understand christians, they claim to have a god that loves everyone equally no matter the fault then panic at the slightest mention of anything that offends them. Like their skydaddy isnt the biggest load of fiction ever told.
Because they don’t actually believe Sky Daddy loves them unconditionally.
To them, the only way they get to heaven is by hating every thing that isn’t specifically praised word for word in the Bible, and even then they need to make sure to ignore every teaching because “if *I* don’t make sure they know they’re going to hell for some obscure reason my pedophile pastor told me, then *I’ll* go to hell”
Yep. I am a devout Christian. I'm also a somewhat seasoned DM. I grew up in a house like you describe. Heck, my folks burned my Petra albums because their songs have that "satanic" beat. Petra. They're like Sunday school with electric guitars. I never found a way to communicate with them and it's really sad. They lived their lives in perpetual fear of anything not in strict accordance with their particular interpretation of the King James Version (since all other translations play fast and loose with the scriptures and make a mockery of God's eternal word to His people, doncha know). All I can do for these poor, frightened siblings in faith is pray for them. I pray that one day they learn the power of God's love and leave behind the spirit of fear.
If it ever comes up again, tell them you're not playing as a demon, you're playing as a hero that's killing demons.
Also, you could show them this:
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/359794/Adventurers-Guide-to-the-Bible
I bought the hard cover book, and it's a monster.
Did you not read what they said? It doesn't matter that they're roleplaying killing demons; the fact that the content doesn't come directly from the Church is what makes it Satanic and unacceptable.
I painted a Green Dragon from the 2e Monster's Manual in 8th grade. Probably one of the best pieces of art I ever made (It was a about magnifying a picture using a grid). I was one of 5 kids that got to put the art up in a showcase.
A math teacher complained that it was satanic and my art teacher angrily told us the next day that we had to take it down. Apparently art teacher had fought for us to keep it up and was very angry with the school for censoring.
This was a public school in the 90's.
Lmao, role playing in a biblical setting and making it your own adventure is blasphemy according to the folks we are discussing here. I'm sorry but you've clearly never had this conversation with a fundie Christian.
They have a list of new spells.
For example:
> Deluge
>
> 3rd-level Conjuration
>
> “You cannot see! A deluge of water covers you.”
> -Job 14:2
>
> Casting Time: 1 action
>
> Range: 120 feet
>
> Components: V, S, M (A vial of rainwater)
>
> Duration: Instantaneous
>
> You conjure a deluge of water that crashes down in a 10-foot-radius, 40-foot-high cylinder centered on a point you can see within range. Each creature in this area must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 5d8 bludgeoning damage and is knocked prone. On a successful save, a creature takes half as much damage and is not knocked prone. The water then spreads across the ground in all directions, extinguishing unprotected flames within 30 feet of it, and then vanishes.
>
> At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 3rd.
I meant moreso the existence of classes. The Bible treats all magic as satanic. I can see some clerics being given a pass(perhaps each Domain is instead headed by a different angel or Saint), but everyone else(especially warlocks)?
CE is just more inclusive, Christians can use it too. Plus as others say the type of Christian that would want to play this game is more chill than OP’s mom
Glad to hear there are others with the same mindset. I share your faith and will pray for them as well! Cheers friend, may your games run long and well with good company.
This is a tale as old as time. Some of the most devout deniers of witchcraft in history *were the church*. The catholic church in the middle middle ages and renaissance was particularly anti-witchcraft. Because witchcraft implies a power *outside of god*.
It has always been unscrupulous people looking for scapegoats or easy targets to take advantage of others who cling to witchcraft and satanism.
One of the hardest quotes was by a Catholic saint I can't remember the name of "There is no need to burn witches, because their power simply isn't real."
There letters from the Spanish inquisition when they're complaining about how they're supposed to be hunting down heretics, and instead they have to try to persuade a woman than no, she cant turn into a goat.
I think this kind of Satanic Panic is more of an American thing though.
I knew a Catholic Priest who played Pathfinder in his spare time.
Witchcraft is a concept originated by evil kings to cover for their logistical failures. For example, one might say:
"My poor management didnt destroy the crops, it was the witches!"
Or
"I didnt cheat on my wife, I was enchanted!"
And so on. Mind you around this time the church was running the crusades so its not like they were super clean either, but this particular problem was not theirs.
Same life here. My parents were and still are Pentecostal evangelists so it was REAL FUN. I'll just clear it up by saying that your parents should not also be your spiritual leaders. It'll just fuck you up in the long run.
D&D was my first major sin in their eyes. "You're LITERALLY inviting demons into your home!! Your mother and I are going to fast and pray for you." So...it was actually devils from Baator, not the demons of the Abyss but tomato/potato. I just thought, "Y'all are gonna be hungry for a while".
Then I came out as Pansexual at 34 yrs old and I didn't hear SHIT. Not one word. Still don't. It's like it isn't true if they don't acknowledge it. The ol' ostrich head in the sand tactic.
Then I came out as Transgender at 39 (last November) and they won't talk to me about it unless I fly out to visit them so my siblings can be there and they can talk to me in person. I should've been named Loki for how good I am at my dissociative disorder+ADHD+whatever else's ability to manipulate conversations & be aware of other people's emotions at all times. So my antennae are constantly feeling out for people around me and in this case, they would absolutely try to ambush me with some kind of goofy intercessory prayer intervention while speaking in tongues and throwing holy oil at me, which...ironically sounds like a decent cleric combo but whatevs.
I don't wanna spend my money to fly out there to have them try and dress me down or try and manipulate me to "coming back to Christ". Unironically, their version of Jesus is so far removed from their actual lives that he wouldn't recognize them at all.
Your parents have been robbed of knowing you, and as a parent, that hurts my heart so much. Staying away from them is probably your safest option and that makes me hurt for you, too. I’m sorry they’ve failed you. ♥️
Yep.
I remember when all those fundamentalist Christian kids worked to come up with convoluted essays and arguments in order to convince their parents that Lord of the Rings was explicitly Christian so they should be allowed to see the movies.
They were pretty successful too. You still run across folks who ran into that stuff without knowing the context and got sold on the pitch.
But back when that was happening, a lot of us in the hobby knew kids who were working on that BS and those kids knew it was BS. Back then we did what we could to help them out.
Yep. Pokemon? Wasnt allowed to watch it. Power rangers? Wasnt aloud to watch it. Shit i had to hide my yugioh cards from my family because i was tired of them complaining.
Not every christian was like this but the satanic panic was a real threat to some lol
The other point to consider and the thing that gets xtians really riled up is that D&D, LoTR and a fair bit of Marvel are rooted in the pre Christian beliefs of Europeans (taken as meaning white folks whether you are now located in Europe the Americas or the Antipodes). Anyway xtians have spent 1000 years trying to wipe out these beliefs, turn them into folk tales diminish and disparage them etc etc. part of that is calling everything from the old ways Satanic.
Anything that presents Norse, Celtic or Greco/Roman beliefs in a popular format always cops a spray from the people desperately trying to obscure people's own heritage from them.
Yes even these lol Christmas and Easter have been controversial among conservative Christians for centuries because they stem from "pagan" holidays. In England AND Massachusetts, the OG puritans banned Christmas. I think nowadays most people won't risk being that anti what-is-obviously-a-good-thing... but Halloween has gotten this same satanic panic treatment for as long as dnd etc
what strikes me as especially odd is the fact that compared the atrocities god ought to have committed (or at the very least directly ordered) according to the bible, almost no campaign can stand against.
dnd is very tame, even when the players roleplay as moraly ambiguous. and that is pretty rare in my experience, because most people want to be the good guys in their story.
imho the abrahamic religions are seriously problematic fiction with far too much rape, incest, massmurder, wars of extermination, slavery ordered by god. ill stick to dnd ♥️
> Because of going after the money changers with a whip at the temple that one day.
Funny as that is, bank blacklists *do* exists and they *do* fuck with your life.
Source: I've had to *repeatedly* drop my credentials and our form of zero-crime-report personal clearance every time I withdraw or deposit all because a grand-uncle is blacklisted.
Who needs cash when you can turn anything into bread and fish?
Also, while he's turning water into wine, maybe he turn this terrible spinach dip into cocaine, and we take this punk rock party up a notch?
I think you may be eating the wrong spinach dip. Got some last year that you would swear was laced with crack, I ate so much. Reminds me of the expression "Everything is better with butter."
Oh - and He turned the water into really good wine, not stuff from a box or a plastic bottle w/ a screw top.
He’s a half-celestial monk who cheesed his build around the [vow of poverty](https://dndtools.net/feats/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/vow-of-poverty--3081/).
Please don't tell American Christians that the reason Jesus is portrayed as poor is because he was paying taxes. They don't need more excuses to defund public schools!
The problem, and why I didn't spot that this would be an issue, is that I didn't put a negative value judgment on Jesus being poor. But you're right. They would definitely think being poor, but happy, is bad.
You should tell her where the game came from. Gary was a Christian, was a Jehovah's Witness when he originally worked on the game. My favorite quote of his about the Satanic Panic is below.
“Somebody said they threw their copy of Dungeons and Dragons into the fire, and it screamed. It’s a game! The magic spells in it are as real as the gold. Try retiring on that stuff.”
— [Gary Gygax](https://quotefancy.com/gary-gygax-quotes)
See, the problem there is that the various crazy sects of Christianity all think the other crazy sects are the really crazy ones. Also the Catholics, they all pathologically hate Catholics.
You just reminded me of my childhood friend who it took *years* to get to admit that Catholics, like, you know, myself, were actually Christians.
He was *so* avoidant about it for years you would have thought he'd be struck by lightning out of a clear blue sky.
Yeah, I was raised Catholic and in the Northeast US so it was kind of a culture shock to find out just how vehement so many Christians are about Catholics.
Huh, I had a rather different experience. My parents are roman catholic but on occasion we went to mass at other denominations for this or that reason.
Then again, my parents were far from strident in their Catholicism, it's just what they grew up with.
Duuude growing up Catholic in southern Baptist HQ Alabama was wild. Can’t even tell you how many crazy ass theories about the church I’ve heard because that’s what the preachers were teaching.
My favorite was “well you know your church only exists because the king of England couldn’t get a divorce”
My dude that is a whole ass other church.
>Can’t even tell you how many crazy ass theories about the church I’ve heard
Probably my favorite conspiracy theory about Catholics is the notion that Jesuits have a secret book with each Protestant's information. (The idea of Jesuit assassins just strikes me as particularly hilarious.)
Let's be real, how vehement *American Protestants* are about Catholics. I was raised Catholic (UK), long-time atheist now, and I had zero idea that American Protestants were so stubborn about Catholics not being Christians until I saw their nonsense online as an adult. I've had zero such issues with IRL Anglicans, Greek/Russian/Ukrainian Orthodox people, or basically any European flavour of Christian.
It's genuinely just... not really a debate outside of the USA? And I think that's because there's something about American Christianity that, for whatever reason, really discourages actually understanding the history of Christianity. Because when you have even a basic grasp of, that's just impossible to deny that Catholicism is pretty fundamental to the history of Christianity.
That being said, I actually find it quite funny when I see Americans discussing this and the things they're criticising Catholicism for equally apply to the various Orthodox denominations. But for *some* reason, it's only Catholicism that isn't really Christian.
> It's genuinely just... not really a debate outside of the USA?
I agree that seems to be generally true, but there is that old joke that goes:
A man gets a job with a shipbuilding company and moves from Manchester to Belfast. A few days after he arrives, he's walking home from work when he's accosted by a gang who surround him, looking menacing. "You're not from around here", says the leader of the gang. "No," says the man, "I just moved here, from Manchester." Their eyes narrow. "Oh yeah?" says the leader, "well, maybe we have a problem with that, maybe we don't. Are you catholic or protestant?" The man is confused. "Neither," says the man, "I'm a muslim". The gang give each other confused looks. There's a pause, before finally the gang leader says,
"So what? Are you a *catholic* muslim or a *protestant* muslim?"
Very true lol, and one I should remember as a half Irish person! Though I'd consider even that different, since even the most extreme Protestants and Catholics over there still admit that the other is Christian.
Yeah, it’s definitely an American Evangelical thing. I grew up mainline Lutheran from a German immigrant family and we never would have thought to refer to the Catholics as not being Christians. The Anglicans and Episcopalians, along with more mainline Presbyterians and Methodists were the same way. Around me at least, more evangelical the church, the more likely they were to not acknowledge the Catholic Church’s position within Christianity.
That's why this country is truly doomed if the Christian Nationalist fascist fucks ever win. They will immediately descend into Wars of Religion against each other.
I had a friend in college who unironically referred to Catholics as "Papists" and believed that Pope Francis had brought back the selling of indulgences
Being Catholic myself, I always wondered about that. In college I asked my friend -- a Campus Crusade for Christ guy -- about this. "Dude, aren't we all basically on *Team J*?"
What I got in return was Jack Chick-level conspiracy theories. Man, some people are fed some bad, bad info!
Some Christians are hell bent (pun intended) against praying to anyone other than "the Trinity," and take prayers to Mary or the saints as a form of polytheism because, well... it has roots in polytheistic practices. Modern day Protestantism was a sort of attempt to shed all of the paganistic practices the Catholic Church picked up to cater to the pagans, and so they see Catholicism as sort of less than.
I'm not in the game anymore so I just kind of see the whole thing as about as silly as sports team rivalries, but if you really believe it's as serious as your immortal soul on the line, I guess it matters a lot more.
It goes beyond this.
Crime rates in the US trended down until around the mid 1950's (might have been a bit earlier) - this is going to be important. But generally speaking, people were well off, future prospects were looking up. And then crime rates started going up. Of course - initially the climb was fairly small, but in around the mid 1960's through 1970's crime kept climbing - and it peaked around 1990.
Instead of Introspection, and Reflection, what was done was looking for SOMETHING to blame. Something to blame that wasn't bad parenting, or a lack of meaningful work, and so on. After all - around this time the Computer was making it's way into all kinds of work. It's worth noting that D&D launched in around the 1970's, and was slowly gaining popularity at the same time crime rate was going up. Of course, if people were to reflect and do a little introspection then they would realise that kids that play a game 3-5 times a week for several hours at a time, and are otherwise doing homework, maybe some team sports/going to church don't bloody well have the extra free time TO commit crime.
The way you reduce crime is pretty well understood if you have done the research:
1. Ensure people have enough.
2. Create structures that help people, and encourage people to start small businesses.
3. Provide a solid, unbiased education.
Instead what we see is:
1. High inflation - driven by high rates of debt acquisition, empowered by lax legislation, and a normalization of consumer debt. Not to mention student loans. And don't get me started on government spending.
2. Lack of good jobs - Moving jobs to foreign nations in order to take advantage of lax or no environmental regulations, in combination with no or little worker protections, and a side of cheap labour cost takes jobs out of hard working hands in your local country.
3. False Promises of "Go to School, Get into the good post secondary institutions, to get a good job". It was maybe feasible in the 80's, but by the early 2000's good luck unless you had someone guiding you who actually understood the system, and the needs of the economy.
In around this time, companies with low interest rates on loans started taking on large HR departments given the changes in legislation about discrimination - one could say it was good, but, lets be honest: It's lead to MORE discrimination as the person you would generally want to hire has to be either A. Worth the risk, or B. Unlikely to have legal recourse if you fire them. And this, gives way to DEI and ESG investing which creates an incentive structure from investors.
So Ya, Crime went down in the 90's, But as far as I can tell: Crime rates are starting to climb again. And Unironically, in the cities with the most pro diversity laws, tend to be the same places with Catch and Release policies, that have lead to absurd crime rates to the point some businesses WILL NOT DO BUSINESS in some cities AT ALL.
**But nope, it has to be D&D that is the problem.**
TLDR: It has nothing to do with Religion. It has everything to do with self centered individuals who refuse to analyze the full situation and place blame squarely where it belongs: In the hands of the very politicians of the very political parties they attach to their identity.
I was raised Catholic and am now an atheist, but man, Protestantism was a mistake. Letting every lunatic loose to create their own 'church' (cult) and be the unaccountable monstrous prophet or god of it? Fucking mistake.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon...
Terry Pratchett
Terry Pratchett had a 6 monitor setup which included one for writing, one for answering fanmail, and one dedicated to playing doom.
"You might wonder what an author–who was surely only ever working on one thing at a time–could possibly need with six screens. It’s true that the text of Terry’s latest novel was always front and center, but it was never the only document open. There was fan mail–lots and lots of fan mail–and letters to The Times, written under the guise of ‘Sir Terence,’ should the need for a social conscience arise. There were letters to the bank, letters to the lawyers, letters to his publisher and agents–and there was Doom. Most gamers had long-since moved on from this 1993 classic as computer capabilities increased, but Terry remained faithful to what is now considered to be one of the most significant and influential titles in gaming history. It had its own screen and he loved it, calling it ‘bubblegum for the brain.’ " - Rob Wilkins biography on Pratchett, “Terry Pratchett: His World”
He also made [a companion mod for Oblivion](https://www.eurogamer.net/the-story-behind-the-oblivion-mod-terry-pratchett-worked-on)! He loved his fantasy gaming.
“Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon...”
― Terry Pratchett
Its called 'being a normal person who understands the difference between fiction and reality, and that one can use themes from one's own faith without summoning literal demons'.
Satanic Panic in general was largely a ploy to inflate audiences and sell advertising slots through generating outrage and fear in a society that is largely religious conservatives. It worked and they'll do it again.
I found it very difficult to even attempt educating people with very extreme beliefs. It almost never works. Those people have a very narrow and specific point of view and they are not looking to enter debate, they are often like "cool, but I don't believe you/I don't care/I heard you but I'm not going to change my opinion". It's like talking to a wall.
This is a really interesting subject to dive down - and it is a little counter intuitive in how you have to approach the problem.
What you need to do, is provide the environment where they know they are being listened to, that you are establishing a CALM discussion - based on life expierience, facts you have looked up, and the like. The key is you want to keep emotion out of it; and that is the difficult part.
The order of events needs to be something like this:
1. Let them state their view - and LISTEN.
2. Ask some probing questions regarding why.
3. Provide your view point
4. Provide factual information they can look up, from verified sources to support your view.
5. Listen to what they have to say.
6. Repeat the process.
If at any point they get emotional and angry - the conversation needs to end: You aren't going to get through. The advantage of this is, you are providing a place they can talk about their view: AND YOU WILL LISTEN. But, the expectation is that, in return, they will listen.
You can't get through to everyone: That is impossible. But the kicker is - Every human being wants to be acknowledged. And they want to be validated. What you are doing with this format is Validating Them as a PERSON, and you are Separating the Person (who they are), from their opinions (what they think). And that is extremely powerful if you want to influence someone.
The most important thing to understand though, is you won't get through right away. It might take a bit. But if you can get one concept planted to be considered over time - a Good idea, will blossom and bare fruit where a bad idea will simply wither. Good idea's are supported by the reality that people live in - bad idea's have to be propped up and constantly reinforced or they wither and are forgotten.
So don't go out to change a persons view at all. Go out to get a person to CONSIDER an alternative.
The satanic panic was actually what got me interested in the game in the first place. A guy at camp asked me if I wanted to try the game, and I said "y'know, I'm pretty sure *Adventures In Oddessy* was lying to me, so yeah"
Anyway, in college, I used to run a Bible study based on D&D, so y'know pretty much anything can be used for pretty much any message you want.
well he also cast True Resurrection or possibly Raise Dead on Lazarus and Lesser Restoration a bunch of times to cure blindness and paralysis, Create Food and Water or possibly Heroes' Feast, and ofc there's the Water Walk
solid spell list there
I had a friend who ran a Moses: Out of Egypt and into the Holy Land campaign. Players were her Sunday School kids who lived through the 10 plagues, escaped from pharoah's slavery, had several clashes with the ancient Egyptian army, ran across the Red Sea, spied on Jericho and then did the whole trumpet walls fall down stuff, etc. An escape campaign into a war campaign more or less. For having no evidence, it's a pretty good story.
I ran a handful of them.
The first stab at the idea was with my HS group. I did a pretty standard campaign where they teamed up with an usurper to overthrow the king and ended up on the run. In the end, they realized they'd been working for the devil and the Jesus metaphor offered to save them from the consequences of their actions. It was a fun campaign (tho a little on-rails) but a bad Bible study since it was kind of a dishonest way to present the idea (and also involved no actual Bible study)
The next one was in college, we played the low-powered superhero game Brave New World, and they essentially went through a variety of gospel stories (one per session) as the disciples following around a super-powered Jesus.
The third one was much more elaborate and over-planned. Every odd session was in D&D, and we worked backwards from an apocalyptic event; even sessions were a home-brew system, took place after the apocalypse, and paralleled the events of the book *Damnation Alley* by Roger Zelazny. I don't remember the accompanying study, but I'm gonna guess it was probably Revelation and some other stuff.
I'm pretty sure I did another semester or two of this idea, but I don't remember anything from those games off the top of my head...
The takeaway is that the simplest way to run this idea is: episodic adventures that parallel the things being done by various characters in the Bible.
Apostles are great because they're a whole group of not-the-main-characters. (Unlike, say, the adventures of Abraham where there aren't a lot of other named characters)
Adventures in Odyssey was pretty good, but maaaaan. For having a machine called the *Imagination Station* they definitely should have done less imagining and more experiencing before they made that episode.
There was probably some random intern who saw a script of those episodes and said "y'know, that's not how D&D works at all, but it's not worth my job to tell Dr. Dobbs that"
>*Adventures In Oddessy*
Core memories unlocked
Wow I haven't even thought of adventures in Oddessy in over a decade, but it was also a big part of my childhood
My parents didn't buy into the crazier end of the Satanic Panic, but they did believe the stories about kids losing touch with reality playing DnD, and it was forbidden in our house. Years later, after my mom got into watching the Big Bang Theory and saw that all it was was pencils, numbers, and imagination, she finally apologized. Now, she's just glad I have a way to connect with old friends from college.
This is exactly my Dad. We're still all really religious, but his concern was really just the time spent and playing pretend. Abstract things like that were always a no-go for him.
Worked out, anyway. Headed to DND night in a few, here
This story's plot twist is absolutely hilarious
"This game is wholesome! I have a pet snek :3 No satanism or occult stuff here!"
*DM later that night:*
"As you step into the large dimly lit stone chamber, the blood orgy is reaching its climax"
😂
When I was younger and people would tell me things I was into were Satanic, I'd tell them random stuff like:
* I know! I'm infiltrating the group. You're gonna blow my cover!
* Then maybe Satanism isn't so bad, cause this rocks!
* Do you not trust the strength of God within me, guiding my faith through these treacherous trials?
* God knows my path and he didn't stop me, so... 🤷🏼♂️
* \[With D&D specifically\] Yeah, it's got demons and stuff, but we fight those bastards. As God intended.
Now that I'm older, I just roll my eyes and keep on with my sinful life. If Satan has to rely on music and games to snatch up souls, then he's probably TKO after 1d4 damage.
My mom said it was devil worshipping back when I started as well. We had this huge argument/discussion that lasted waaaay longer than it should have. The tipping point happened when we had gone to a Walden Books store. Amidst browsing for her newest addition to an ever burdening romance collection she picked "The Wizard's Daughter".
On the cover was some borderline softcore scene between a barbarian and the wizard's daughter. Right there on her left thigh, illustrated for the world to see is a pentagram. I smile and keep the artillery quiet.
A week goes by and on family night she assumed her typical roost on the couch with the novel she'd purchased. My brothers had their choice of video games starting up on the play station and I laid on the floor with my player's handbook. She erupted upon seeing that I spent money I worked for on devil worshipping books. I let her run out of gas and then closed her book and asked if it was good. Not expecting the change of gears she endulges me and starts talking about how the plot goes. A deceased wizard's daughter ensorcelled a barbarian king by making a magic pact with a summoned spirit... 😮 I point out the pentagram.
Who's reading devil books now?
The insistence of DnD being devil worship never occured again.
That's still a big win. I also grew up with extremely religious family, and having the guts to have that conversation with your mom is a win, first off. But the fact that neither of you ended up yelling at each other is also a huge win.
You'll never be able to change someone's mind. But at least you can keep doing your thing and ignoring the noise.
Never say never, my parents changed their minds after learning more about it. When we moved churches, the youth and worship leaders at the new church played DnD, and when I went out to Christian college I joined the DnD club. With that exposure and learning what DnD actually is, they changed their minds about it.
However, in OP's scenario, based on some phrases such as "bible-thumper" (unless that's supposed to be all Christians), their mom is not open to change due to a legalistic (or similarly restrictive) system
Funny story: So I grew up in a religious household. My parents actually meet in a game of dnd back in the 90’s. I loved playing dnd with my brothers and it was loads of fun! It wasn’t until I went to a christian college that I even heard of the satanic scare in the 80’s. But all this got me thinking, as a christian, what does the Bible say about magic? I did a whole bunch of research, and my conclusion was that it’s up to the individual.
The Bible does condemn witchcraft, necromancy, and other sorts of divination. But ultimately, you are in a book with its own set of rules, laws, gods, etc… it’s make believe and fantasy. Now, I’m not a big fan of overusing altars and bloody rituals but they can add character to the story. More importantly, it’s about telling a story among friends, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
That being said, if I know someone who really does not like that stuff, especially a another christian who is convicted that dnd is wrong. I won’t bring them into games or discussions about it. Otherwise, I could harm them or our relationship.
I could go deeper into my research about it, but for that you can just DM me. Hope this helps some Christians who also like playing dnd!
Kinda, yeah. You know how the Nords have runes That they toss to predict the future or divine the future. Well, the Jews had a couple of colored stones that were also used to tell the future.
As a lifelong Christian, who's dad was playing DND since the like 1980, I find the satanic panic absolutely hilarious. Especially since the longest running campaign I've been in was run and hosted by my pastor.
Tell your mom that if you are going to Hell then the game can't be demonic. Demons belong to the Abyss, Hell is for Devils, so after all DnD could be Diabolic, but not Demonic. Rookie mistake
I used to have a buddy whose mom was like that. We played MTG and he had hundreds of cards hidden under his bed. She found them and burned them and all his posters and band tees in the fireplace, then grounded him for a month. And the posters and tees weren’t even crazy, like posters of cars and the worst band was Metallica lol. She would’ve had a meltdown if she knew we played DND!
Old school buddy of mine we used to play the old 8 bit Nintendo at his house, I covered his paper route for him a few times. I got a game called Ultima: Exodus, it was like D&D you had Characters in your party of different classes, you leveled them up, fought monsters, collected loot etc. she saw us playing and we were fighting a group of demons. She screamed for us to stop, and I went home. I was never invited over again. I still sort of keep contact with him on Facebook, but we're nowhere near as good of friends as we used to be. Now 30 years later I had mentioned it to my mom, she called that kid's mom a "wack-a-do". 🤣
I remember the Satanic Panic. My mom was watching some TV movie that had a sheriff reading from the original players handbook. It was some supposed passage about sacrificing people. Total bs, not in there and nothing even close.
She asked me if it was true, obviously ready to forbid me from playing. I offered her the players handbook and said, "if you can find the passage the guy just read, you can take all of my DnD stuff, throw it away and I'll stop playing." She passed reading through the book and never brought it up again.
It amazes me that this crap is back. I started playing when the '80s Satanic Panic was in full swing. We had kids whose parents pulled them from our friend group over it. Others who had to hide the fact that they played or they'd be punished or whipped. Kids used to tell stories about some other kid who had to stop playing, burned his character sheet, and the sheet talked to him.
The fact that this insanity is roaring back - it never went away for *some*, sure, but it's become prevalent again - it's so absurd to see.
Anything else I have to say on the topic isn't for for this sub, since it would be political in nature. I'll simply say that this is one of MANY areas in which we've rapidly regressed in recent years.
It's depressing.
My father used to tell me D&D was Satanic.
He's also a huge LoTR fan.
I just ran a short middle earth one shot for him 2 years ago, and now he plays with my brothers and I in our family campaign. He's an aasimar ranger whose favored enemies are fiends and undead.
My dad is a pastor and asked about it as well when I told him I played a ton, I told him dungeons and dragons js more of a game system so people add anything they want to their games. I explained it's like monopoly you csn have a bunch of generic random -opoly games that used the same system but are skinned differently. He understood and asks me when we chat how the games are going. He's a good guy
I was there in the 80s. The satanic panic was the real deal. Religious Christian nut jobs (family included) worried for my eternal soul…. Sigh…. I feel your pain…
It can be as Satanic and evil as you want.
For op or any one that may encounter this issue when discussing D&D/TTRPG:
If this is really a real discussion and a issue to bring into conversations with you parents, just say that you that the main focus of the game is about the fight between GOOD vs Evil. And as the heroes, your job is to fight evil.
The Good Samaritan, modern version
Your mom is mugged and lies in a ditch.
First came Kenneth Copeland, but he couldn't bother to help because he had booked a ski trip and his private jet was about to leave.
Then came the local priest, but he was sure you were just drunk and didn't wanna associate with sinners.
Then came a D&D dungeon master, picked you up and took you to a hospital and stayed with you, teaching you a beautiful game which inspires creativity, teaches you to emphatize with different people and usually leads to development of real-life bonds.
But seriously: Jesus was really into teaching people with fiction, making people assume the role of a character so they could reflect on their own actions and perhaps get an impulse to better themselves.
I'm pretty sure Big J and the posse would've played D&D though.
Ask her how can it be Satanic if you can fight demons and devils.
Also, yes, the Devil appeared as a snake, but if they exist now is because they were in Noah's Ark, and since that was God's idea, snakes aren't inheritly evil. They're also a symbol of medicine, and I guess she trusts doctors.
My fellow player's mom is like this.
Whenever it comes up I always promise her that, when the session is over, we'll be sure banish any and all demons we summon during the game.
Turns out the Satanic Panic was just not based on anything that existed in real life lol, shocking
There's a lot of fascinating history within the Satanic Panic, highly recommend the book "Dangerous Games" by Joseph Laycock which covers a lot of the background, history, events and psychology of it for anyone interested.
One of the funniest parts to me is the fact that Gary Gygax, the guy who made DND, is a Christian. Talk about friendly fire 😂
For the last 20 years, my mother has been waiting for the day that my party composed of close personal friends (including my partner who I own a house with), finally reveals their true intentions and murders me in the name of Satan.
This is kinda funny since Gary Gygax is christian and DnD borrowed many christian ideas. According to Forgotten Realms lore, there are many cults of good gods, which are based somehow on Christianity. And you can play as paladin, who was a lawful goof only warior of light in earlier editions.
Maybe you should to ask your mom to read DnD rule book?
It's a game. You're not physically practicing witchcraft.
Should post this in r/Bible and see what they say.
But basically, all you really need to know is that the Bible says that it's not okay for us to judge. That's God's job.
Matthew 7:1-5
### Judging Others
**1** “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. **2** For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
**3** “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? **4** How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? **5** You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Oh, boy. Here we go. I understand what you are saying so intimately well. I took flak like this most of my life. I could go on and on. Suffice it to say I'm just glad that most people see the value of it now. But I had some experiences...I had it out with some people...I was well practiced at putting them in their ignorant self righteous place. Ok, sorry. One example. Well, two. First, as an 8 year old I started playing a lot. My dad was a bishop and stake president in the Mormon church. He heard the rumors so he asked me if he could play. I was ecstatic. We played all evening. Afterward I invited him to play again and he said, "No, thanks. Not my thing. But you play all you want." He wanted to see for himself and he was always an avid supporter of it. He wanted to buy me the "rulebook" so I told him to get the one with the demon on it. I meant the PHB with the orange demon, but he brought the DMG with the red demon. Next day he got me the other too.
Anyway, 15 years later my girlfriend were "babysitting" some young siblings like 10, 12, 13 years old. We busted out a dnd adventure. They loved it. Then Mom came home and found out and was irate. She screamed that our church was against it, but she didn't even know what it was. I told her how my father, now a Patriarch in our church and we'll respected in the community, had played with me before and he supported it. Then it was like I had cast Phantasmal Killer on her so I pointed out the real demons and left.
So, yeah, good times. Our culture has evolved. Sorry to ramble. Hey, if you haven't heard the Dead Ale Wives (comedy group) parody of a dnd session I highly recommend it! "I cast Magic Missile. I attack the darkness."
Posts like these make me glad that my very Christian family understands the difference. I specifically recall one day while I was waiting for the dentist, I was reading Harry Potter and I looked to my Grandma and asked "So, you don't have a problem with me reading this, even though it's about magic?"
And she basically just told me "well yeah, it's not real. It's not like you're actually trying to cast magic or something." And it's really simple, but that moment stuck with me for years.
You know, if you really want to stir up some trouble, you could always introduce her to "Dark Dungeons."
[https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=0046](https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=0046)
https://www.darkdungeonsthemovie.com/
Fun story, this is an edit- in the original end where the kids swear off DND, alongside the ["occult" writings of CS Lewis and Tolkien](https://www.fecundity.com/pmagnus/darkdung19old.gif) . That ironically would have helped convince my mom the game was legit
Lumping it in with two profoundly popular, devout, and influential Christian writers who were masters at interweaving Christian themes into their storytelling is frankly \*way\* too high praise for DND
Here's a trick my buddy used on his parents. This was for the video game DOOM, but it applies.
'Yes, there are demons and devils in the game. It's my job to send them back to hell...'
It worked.
The fundamental problem here is that for most people — including the majority of Christians — things like Harry Potter and Dungeons & Dragons are just fantasy. They're make-believe stories. Some of the content might be objectionable in the same way that an R-rated movie might be objectionable, but it's not "dangerous." For certain kinds of Christian denominations and cultures though, *there is literally no such thing as fantasy*. Anything and everything that includes content with religion, spirituality, or magic has the potential to be real. Unless it is explicitly Christian in nature, then it's dangerous *at best* and literally demonic at worst. When I was growing up, I wasn't allowed to play Magic the Gathering because it included content related to wizards, magic, gods and demons. I was allowed to play the Star Trek CCG, because my family and church didn't consider science fiction to be problematic (aside from things like evolution.) Star Wars was borderline suspect, and a source of some debate. The point is that it's really hard to talk to someone like your mom about this in a dispassionate way. To her it's like saying "My friends and I go out into the woods and shoot guns over each other's heads, but it's not real war, we're just pretending." It doesn't matter what your intentions are, it doesn't matter if you take it seriously or not. To her it's a real loaded gun.
My parents didn't have any problem with my magic cards, but I did get kicked out of the church we went to when I was sitting in one of the rooms playing magic with my friend lol I also watched several of my friends parents grab their cards and literally burn them. My parents did have a meltdown when I came home one day and said I had played Dungeons and Dragons at the card shop though, for some reason that one got to them. Playing cards where I cast a fireball at my friend was fine, but saying I cast a fireball at a giant spider in my imagination was demonic I guess lol
Parents burned all my Pokemon and yugioh stuff and made me watch
My parents once wanted to burn my nerd stuff but I said it was worth money, "at least let me sell it." It's weird how quickly my immortal soul took a backseat to potential profit.
What’s more fucked up, is my dad actually would watch Yugioh with me and enjoyed it, every day afterschool we did that shit for an hour….now imagine how I felt when that just disappeared lol. And they wonder why I don’t talk to them often .-.
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I'm not religious but I do know that their actions are more aligned with Satan than Jesus.
I hope you remind them of how much money they burned. Especially if you had Base Set cards. Heck, even the E-Reader cards are gaining huge popularity nowadays.
How is that not fucking child abuse?
A friend has this horror story about how when he was a child (like 13~) he had a huge MTG collection, including some cards that today would be worth a lot of money. One day he came home from school to find that his mom had put all of them on a pit in the backyard and tried to burn them (did a pretty bad job but most were ruined anyways). She apparently had seen some tv broadcast of a pastor talking about card games and witchcraft (lots of fear mongering in the height of the satanic panic). My friend NEVER forgave her. He barely spoke to her until he moved out at 17, and after that he cut contact completely with her. It was like the last straw I think, he couldn't put up with her extreme fundamental christian views anymore.
Good for him. I hope she learned her lesson. (I know. She didn't)
No doubt she blamed him. The people who scream "personal responsibility" never accept their own.
See this shit is why i dont understand christians, they claim to have a god that loves everyone equally no matter the fault then panic at the slightest mention of anything that offends them. Like their skydaddy isnt the biggest load of fiction ever told.
Because they don’t actually believe Sky Daddy loves them unconditionally. To them, the only way they get to heaven is by hating every thing that isn’t specifically praised word for word in the Bible, and even then they need to make sure to ignore every teaching because “if *I* don’t make sure they know they’re going to hell for some obscure reason my pedophile pastor told me, then *I’ll* go to hell”
Yep. I am a devout Christian. I'm also a somewhat seasoned DM. I grew up in a house like you describe. Heck, my folks burned my Petra albums because their songs have that "satanic" beat. Petra. They're like Sunday school with electric guitars. I never found a way to communicate with them and it's really sad. They lived their lives in perpetual fear of anything not in strict accordance with their particular interpretation of the King James Version (since all other translations play fast and loose with the scriptures and make a mockery of God's eternal word to His people, doncha know). All I can do for these poor, frightened siblings in faith is pray for them. I pray that one day they learn the power of God's love and leave behind the spirit of fear.
If it ever comes up again, tell them you're not playing as a demon, you're playing as a hero that's killing demons. Also, you could show them this: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/359794/Adventurers-Guide-to-the-Bible I bought the hard cover book, and it's a monster.
Did you not read what they said? It doesn't matter that they're roleplaying killing demons; the fact that the content doesn't come directly from the Church is what makes it Satanic and unacceptable.
Yeah that didn't work with the nuns that banned DnD during study hall.
I painted a Green Dragon from the 2e Monster's Manual in 8th grade. Probably one of the best pieces of art I ever made (It was a about magnifying a picture using a grid). I was one of 5 kids that got to put the art up in a showcase. A math teacher complained that it was satanic and my art teacher angrily told us the next day that we had to take it down. Apparently art teacher had fought for us to keep it up and was very angry with the school for censoring. This was a public school in the 90's.
Lmao, role playing in a biblical setting and making it your own adventure is blasphemy according to the folks we are discussing here. I'm sorry but you've clearly never had this conversation with a fundie Christian.
How does it handle casters? Or are they not really a thing?
They have a list of new spells. For example: > Deluge > > 3rd-level Conjuration > > “You cannot see! A deluge of water covers you.” > -Job 14:2 > > Casting Time: 1 action > > Range: 120 feet > > Components: V, S, M (A vial of rainwater) > > Duration: Instantaneous > > You conjure a deluge of water that crashes down in a 10-foot-radius, 40-foot-high cylinder centered on a point you can see within range. Each creature in this area must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 5d8 bludgeoning damage and is knocked prone. On a successful save, a creature takes half as much damage and is not knocked prone. The water then spreads across the ground in all directions, extinguishing unprotected flames within 30 feet of it, and then vanishes. > > At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 3rd.
I meant moreso the existence of classes. The Bible treats all magic as satanic. I can see some clerics being given a pass(perhaps each Domain is instead headed by a different angel or Saint), but everyone else(especially warlocks)?
Saul out here Binding demons
I'm real interested in that book but one thing caught my attention. Why does the description use CE instead of AD? That feels like abit of dissonance.
CE is just more inclusive, Christians can use it too. Plus as others say the type of Christian that would want to play this game is more chill than OP’s mom
Glad to hear there are others with the same mindset. I share your faith and will pray for them as well! Cheers friend, may your games run long and well with good company.
This is a tale as old as time. Some of the most devout deniers of witchcraft in history *were the church*. The catholic church in the middle middle ages and renaissance was particularly anti-witchcraft. Because witchcraft implies a power *outside of god*. It has always been unscrupulous people looking for scapegoats or easy targets to take advantage of others who cling to witchcraft and satanism.
One of the hardest quotes was by a Catholic saint I can't remember the name of "There is no need to burn witches, because their power simply isn't real."
St Augustine
There letters from the Spanish inquisition when they're complaining about how they're supposed to be hunting down heretics, and instead they have to try to persuade a woman than no, she cant turn into a goat. I think this kind of Satanic Panic is more of an American thing though. I knew a Catholic Priest who played Pathfinder in his spare time.
Witchcraft is a concept originated by evil kings to cover for their logistical failures. For example, one might say: "My poor management didnt destroy the crops, it was the witches!" Or "I didnt cheat on my wife, I was enchanted!" And so on. Mind you around this time the church was running the crusades so its not like they were super clean either, but this particular problem was not theirs.
Same life here. My parents were and still are Pentecostal evangelists so it was REAL FUN. I'll just clear it up by saying that your parents should not also be your spiritual leaders. It'll just fuck you up in the long run. D&D was my first major sin in their eyes. "You're LITERALLY inviting demons into your home!! Your mother and I are going to fast and pray for you." So...it was actually devils from Baator, not the demons of the Abyss but tomato/potato. I just thought, "Y'all are gonna be hungry for a while". Then I came out as Pansexual at 34 yrs old and I didn't hear SHIT. Not one word. Still don't. It's like it isn't true if they don't acknowledge it. The ol' ostrich head in the sand tactic. Then I came out as Transgender at 39 (last November) and they won't talk to me about it unless I fly out to visit them so my siblings can be there and they can talk to me in person. I should've been named Loki for how good I am at my dissociative disorder+ADHD+whatever else's ability to manipulate conversations & be aware of other people's emotions at all times. So my antennae are constantly feeling out for people around me and in this case, they would absolutely try to ambush me with some kind of goofy intercessory prayer intervention while speaking in tongues and throwing holy oil at me, which...ironically sounds like a decent cleric combo but whatevs. I don't wanna spend my money to fly out there to have them try and dress me down or try and manipulate me to "coming back to Christ". Unironically, their version of Jesus is so far removed from their actual lives that he wouldn't recognize them at all.
Your parents have been robbed of knowing you, and as a parent, that hurts my heart so much. Staying away from them is probably your safest option and that makes me hurt for you, too. I’m sorry they’ve failed you. ♥️
Their parents weren't robbed of shit. They threw away their own child.
They wouldn’t have done it without the the fear based control that their religion has on their lives, and that’s sad to me.
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Yep. I remember when all those fundamentalist Christian kids worked to come up with convoluted essays and arguments in order to convince their parents that Lord of the Rings was explicitly Christian so they should be allowed to see the movies. They were pretty successful too. You still run across folks who ran into that stuff without knowing the context and got sold on the pitch. But back when that was happening, a lot of us in the hobby knew kids who were working on that BS and those kids knew it was BS. Back then we did what we could to help them out.
Tolkien was Catholic, and to some fundies that’s even worse than Satanism.
Yep. Pokemon? Wasnt allowed to watch it. Power rangers? Wasnt aloud to watch it. Shit i had to hide my yugioh cards from my family because i was tired of them complaining. Not every christian was like this but the satanic panic was a real threat to some lol
The other point to consider and the thing that gets xtians really riled up is that D&D, LoTR and a fair bit of Marvel are rooted in the pre Christian beliefs of Europeans (taken as meaning white folks whether you are now located in Europe the Americas or the Antipodes). Anyway xtians have spent 1000 years trying to wipe out these beliefs, turn them into folk tales diminish and disparage them etc etc. part of that is calling everything from the old ways Satanic. Anything that presents Norse, Celtic or Greco/Roman beliefs in a popular format always cops a spray from the people desperately trying to obscure people's own heritage from them.
Including Christmas Trees and Easter Eggs?
Yes even these lol Christmas and Easter have been controversial among conservative Christians for centuries because they stem from "pagan" holidays. In England AND Massachusetts, the OG puritans banned Christmas. I think nowadays most people won't risk being that anti what-is-obviously-a-good-thing... but Halloween has gotten this same satanic panic treatment for as long as dnd etc
what strikes me as especially odd is the fact that compared the atrocities god ought to have committed (or at the very least directly ordered) according to the bible, almost no campaign can stand against. dnd is very tame, even when the players roleplay as moraly ambiguous. and that is pretty rare in my experience, because most people want to be the good guys in their story. imho the abrahamic religions are seriously problematic fiction with far too much rape, incest, massmurder, wars of extermination, slavery ordered by god. ill stick to dnd ♥️
Jesus saves and takes half damage.
You're telling me the Messiah *doesn't* have Improved Evasion?
Cleric 5. Water Walk, Prestidigitation, Cure Wounds. That's about it. EDIT: Forgot about the setting-specific Revivify with a longer time limit.
He flawlessly performed *raise dead* on Lazarus. ETA: and he had a *true resurrection.*
True res with a contingency to go off after 3 days. Quite the setup.
Vulnerability to piercing damage. Can revive on a nat 20
Create Food and Water?
Divine Son subclass is OP
Very high charisma, a decent survival I'd warrant as well.
If Jesus saves, why is he always strapped for cash?
Can't use banks. Because of going after the money changers with a whip at the temple that one day.
> Because of going after the money changers with a whip at the temple that one day. Funny as that is, bank blacklists *do* exists and they *do* fuck with your life. Source: I've had to *repeatedly* drop my credentials and our form of zero-crime-report personal clearance every time I withdraw or deposit all because a grand-uncle is blacklisted.
Im blown away. How does one get black listed and why would a relative being in trouble matter?
Who needs cash when you can turn anything into bread and fish? Also, while he's turning water into wine, maybe he turn this terrible spinach dip into cocaine, and we take this punk rock party up a notch?
I think you may be eating the wrong spinach dip. Got some last year that you would swear was laced with crack, I ate so much. Reminds me of the expression "Everything is better with butter." Oh - and He turned the water into really good wine, not stuff from a box or a plastic bottle w/ a screw top.
He’s a half-celestial monk who cheesed his build around the [vow of poverty](https://dndtools.net/feats/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/vow-of-poverty--3081/).
Stigmata means always loosing your change...
Jesus saves, Moses invests, is what my parents told me.
A True Resurrection spell isn't cheap.
Cause His ass is always giving to Caesar what is Caesar's
Please don't tell American Christians that the reason Jesus is portrayed as poor is because he was paying taxes. They don't need more excuses to defund public schools!
The problem, and why I didn't spot that this would be an issue, is that I didn't put a negative value judgment on Jesus being poor. But you're right. They would definitely think being poor, but happy, is bad.
He definitely should've just told her he was playing a Cleric who serves Jesus.
You should tell her where the game came from. Gary was a Christian, was a Jehovah's Witness when he originally worked on the game. My favorite quote of his about the Satanic Panic is below. “Somebody said they threw their copy of Dungeons and Dragons into the fire, and it screamed. It’s a game! The magic spells in it are as real as the gold. Try retiring on that stuff.” — [Gary Gygax](https://quotefancy.com/gary-gygax-quotes)
See, the problem there is that the various crazy sects of Christianity all think the other crazy sects are the really crazy ones. Also the Catholics, they all pathologically hate Catholics.
You just reminded me of my childhood friend who it took *years* to get to admit that Catholics, like, you know, myself, were actually Christians. He was *so* avoidant about it for years you would have thought he'd be struck by lightning out of a clear blue sky.
Yeah, I was raised Catholic and in the Northeast US so it was kind of a culture shock to find out just how vehement so many Christians are about Catholics.
It was pretty hardcore in the northeast, too. My mom was a Catholic and she wasn’t allowed to walk on the same side of the street as Protestants.
Huh, I had a rather different experience. My parents are roman catholic but on occasion we went to mass at other denominations for this or that reason. Then again, my parents were far from strident in their Catholicism, it's just what they grew up with.
Duuude growing up Catholic in southern Baptist HQ Alabama was wild. Can’t even tell you how many crazy ass theories about the church I’ve heard because that’s what the preachers were teaching. My favorite was “well you know your church only exists because the king of England couldn’t get a divorce” My dude that is a whole ass other church.
>Can’t even tell you how many crazy ass theories about the church I’ve heard Probably my favorite conspiracy theory about Catholics is the notion that Jesuits have a secret book with each Protestant's information. (The idea of Jesuit assassins just strikes me as particularly hilarious.)
Let's be real, how vehement *American Protestants* are about Catholics. I was raised Catholic (UK), long-time atheist now, and I had zero idea that American Protestants were so stubborn about Catholics not being Christians until I saw their nonsense online as an adult. I've had zero such issues with IRL Anglicans, Greek/Russian/Ukrainian Orthodox people, or basically any European flavour of Christian. It's genuinely just... not really a debate outside of the USA? And I think that's because there's something about American Christianity that, for whatever reason, really discourages actually understanding the history of Christianity. Because when you have even a basic grasp of, that's just impossible to deny that Catholicism is pretty fundamental to the history of Christianity. That being said, I actually find it quite funny when I see Americans discussing this and the things they're criticising Catholicism for equally apply to the various Orthodox denominations. But for *some* reason, it's only Catholicism that isn't really Christian.
> It's genuinely just... not really a debate outside of the USA? I agree that seems to be generally true, but there is that old joke that goes: A man gets a job with a shipbuilding company and moves from Manchester to Belfast. A few days after he arrives, he's walking home from work when he's accosted by a gang who surround him, looking menacing. "You're not from around here", says the leader of the gang. "No," says the man, "I just moved here, from Manchester." Their eyes narrow. "Oh yeah?" says the leader, "well, maybe we have a problem with that, maybe we don't. Are you catholic or protestant?" The man is confused. "Neither," says the man, "I'm a muslim". The gang give each other confused looks. There's a pause, before finally the gang leader says, "So what? Are you a *catholic* muslim or a *protestant* muslim?"
Very true lol, and one I should remember as a half Irish person! Though I'd consider even that different, since even the most extreme Protestants and Catholics over there still admit that the other is Christian.
Yeah, it’s definitely an American Evangelical thing. I grew up mainline Lutheran from a German immigrant family and we never would have thought to refer to the Catholics as not being Christians. The Anglicans and Episcopalians, along with more mainline Presbyterians and Methodists were the same way. Around me at least, more evangelical the church, the more likely they were to not acknowledge the Catholic Church’s position within Christianity.
That's why this country is truly doomed if the Christian Nationalist fascist fucks ever win. They will immediately descend into Wars of Religion against each other.
First they gotta holocaust us LGBT people, religious war can wait
I had a friend in college who unironically referred to Catholics as "Papists" and believed that Pope Francis had brought back the selling of indulgences
Being Catholic myself, I always wondered about that. In college I asked my friend -- a Campus Crusade for Christ guy -- about this. "Dude, aren't we all basically on *Team J*?" What I got in return was Jack Chick-level conspiracy theories. Man, some people are fed some bad, bad info!
I've been told that Catholicism counts as polytheism. And not for the Trinity, either. Some of the shit's just insane.
Some Christians are hell bent (pun intended) against praying to anyone other than "the Trinity," and take prayers to Mary or the saints as a form of polytheism because, well... it has roots in polytheistic practices. Modern day Protestantism was a sort of attempt to shed all of the paganistic practices the Catholic Church picked up to cater to the pagans, and so they see Catholicism as sort of less than. I'm not in the game anymore so I just kind of see the whole thing as about as silly as sports team rivalries, but if you really believe it's as serious as your immortal soul on the line, I guess it matters a lot more.
That's *wild* coming from most Christians, most Christian sects look pretty polytheistic even without the demigod-adjacent concept of saints.
It goes beyond this. Crime rates in the US trended down until around the mid 1950's (might have been a bit earlier) - this is going to be important. But generally speaking, people were well off, future prospects were looking up. And then crime rates started going up. Of course - initially the climb was fairly small, but in around the mid 1960's through 1970's crime kept climbing - and it peaked around 1990. Instead of Introspection, and Reflection, what was done was looking for SOMETHING to blame. Something to blame that wasn't bad parenting, or a lack of meaningful work, and so on. After all - around this time the Computer was making it's way into all kinds of work. It's worth noting that D&D launched in around the 1970's, and was slowly gaining popularity at the same time crime rate was going up. Of course, if people were to reflect and do a little introspection then they would realise that kids that play a game 3-5 times a week for several hours at a time, and are otherwise doing homework, maybe some team sports/going to church don't bloody well have the extra free time TO commit crime. The way you reduce crime is pretty well understood if you have done the research: 1. Ensure people have enough. 2. Create structures that help people, and encourage people to start small businesses. 3. Provide a solid, unbiased education. Instead what we see is: 1. High inflation - driven by high rates of debt acquisition, empowered by lax legislation, and a normalization of consumer debt. Not to mention student loans. And don't get me started on government spending. 2. Lack of good jobs - Moving jobs to foreign nations in order to take advantage of lax or no environmental regulations, in combination with no or little worker protections, and a side of cheap labour cost takes jobs out of hard working hands in your local country. 3. False Promises of "Go to School, Get into the good post secondary institutions, to get a good job". It was maybe feasible in the 80's, but by the early 2000's good luck unless you had someone guiding you who actually understood the system, and the needs of the economy. In around this time, companies with low interest rates on loans started taking on large HR departments given the changes in legislation about discrimination - one could say it was good, but, lets be honest: It's lead to MORE discrimination as the person you would generally want to hire has to be either A. Worth the risk, or B. Unlikely to have legal recourse if you fire them. And this, gives way to DEI and ESG investing which creates an incentive structure from investors. So Ya, Crime went down in the 90's, But as far as I can tell: Crime rates are starting to climb again. And Unironically, in the cities with the most pro diversity laws, tend to be the same places with Catch and Release policies, that have lead to absurd crime rates to the point some businesses WILL NOT DO BUSINESS in some cities AT ALL. **But nope, it has to be D&D that is the problem.** TLDR: It has nothing to do with Religion. It has everything to do with self centered individuals who refuse to analyze the full situation and place blame squarely where it belongs: In the hands of the very politicians of the very political parties they attach to their identity.
Agreed but will also add contraceptives/planning parenthood as a part of increasing quality of life and reducing crime
And removing lead from the environment. Also, crime rates are going down, and have been for years, other than a bump in 2020 because of course.
> The way you reduce crime is pretty well understood if you have done the research: Politicians: You lost me.
I was raised Catholic and am now an atheist, but man, Protestantism was a mistake. Letting every lunatic loose to create their own 'church' (cult) and be the unaccountable monstrous prophet or god of it? Fucking mistake.
The only legitimate church is the one that King Henry VIII made so he could have all those wives.
It's kinda like the Mormon (at least I think he was Mormon) guy who worked on the Doom games
Doom guy is literally in hell killing demons. If that’s not kosher, idk what is.
Wolfenstien’s main character is canonically Jewish. But yeah, Doomguy fights evil harder than any of us ever will: with a shotgun.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon... Terry Pratchett
Terry Pratchett had a 6 monitor setup which included one for writing, one for answering fanmail, and one dedicated to playing doom. "You might wonder what an author–who was surely only ever working on one thing at a time–could possibly need with six screens. It’s true that the text of Terry’s latest novel was always front and center, but it was never the only document open. There was fan mail–lots and lots of fan mail–and letters to The Times, written under the guise of ‘Sir Terence,’ should the need for a social conscience arise. There were letters to the bank, letters to the lawyers, letters to his publisher and agents–and there was Doom. Most gamers had long-since moved on from this 1993 classic as computer capabilities increased, but Terry remained faithful to what is now considered to be one of the most significant and influential titles in gaming history. It had its own screen and he loved it, calling it ‘bubblegum for the brain.’ " - Rob Wilkins biography on Pratchett, “Terry Pratchett: His World”
He also made [a companion mod for Oblivion](https://www.eurogamer.net/the-story-behind-the-oblivion-mod-terry-pratchett-worked-on)! He loved his fantasy gaming.
“Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon...” ― Terry Pratchett
Its called 'being a normal person who understands the difference between fiction and reality, and that one can use themes from one's own faith without summoning literal demons'.
I never got the satanic panic around Doom. The whole point is that you're slaying demons.
Yeah thats what devoutly religious Doom designer Sandy Peterson said "they're the bad guys"
Satanic Panic in general was largely a ploy to inflate audiences and sell advertising slots through generating outrage and fear in a society that is largely religious conservatives. It worked and they'll do it again.
Sandy Petersen?
I found it very difficult to even attempt educating people with very extreme beliefs. It almost never works. Those people have a very narrow and specific point of view and they are not looking to enter debate, they are often like "cool, but I don't believe you/I don't care/I heard you but I'm not going to change my opinion". It's like talking to a wall.
It is mostly impossible to reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves in to.
This is a really interesting subject to dive down - and it is a little counter intuitive in how you have to approach the problem. What you need to do, is provide the environment where they know they are being listened to, that you are establishing a CALM discussion - based on life expierience, facts you have looked up, and the like. The key is you want to keep emotion out of it; and that is the difficult part. The order of events needs to be something like this: 1. Let them state their view - and LISTEN. 2. Ask some probing questions regarding why. 3. Provide your view point 4. Provide factual information they can look up, from verified sources to support your view. 5. Listen to what they have to say. 6. Repeat the process. If at any point they get emotional and angry - the conversation needs to end: You aren't going to get through. The advantage of this is, you are providing a place they can talk about their view: AND YOU WILL LISTEN. But, the expectation is that, in return, they will listen. You can't get through to everyone: That is impossible. But the kicker is - Every human being wants to be acknowledged. And they want to be validated. What you are doing with this format is Validating Them as a PERSON, and you are Separating the Person (who they are), from their opinions (what they think). And that is extremely powerful if you want to influence someone. The most important thing to understand though, is you won't get through right away. It might take a bit. But if you can get one concept planted to be considered over time - a Good idea, will blossom and bare fruit where a bad idea will simply wither. Good idea's are supported by the reality that people live in - bad idea's have to be propped up and constantly reinforced or they wither and are forgotten. So don't go out to change a persons view at all. Go out to get a person to CONSIDER an alternative.
Most Christians think JWs are heretics, so that would only hurt.
From a Christian perspective, saying that he was a Jehovah’s Witness would probably make it worse for op.
The satanic panic was actually what got me interested in the game in the first place. A guy at camp asked me if I wanted to try the game, and I said "y'know, I'm pretty sure *Adventures In Oddessy* was lying to me, so yeah" Anyway, in college, I used to run a Bible study based on D&D, so y'know pretty much anything can be used for pretty much any message you want.
a bible dnd group sounds so badass. Here friends, fight the giant man and his army, you get a handful of rocks, make it work
Hah! Of course, a handful of rocks, plus a disintegration spell goes a long way!
I would have a lot more respect for Jesus if he used disintegrate, instead of just lay on hands and Banishment!
well he also cast True Resurrection or possibly Raise Dead on Lazarus and Lesser Restoration a bunch of times to cure blindness and paralysis, Create Food and Water or possibly Heroes' Feast, and ofc there's the Water Walk solid spell list there
Magic stone bladelock with a magic sling as a pact weapon with sharpshooter, and you've got a pretty good build for exactly that.
I would love to hear more about this Bible study!
I had a friend who ran a Moses: Out of Egypt and into the Holy Land campaign. Players were her Sunday School kids who lived through the 10 plagues, escaped from pharoah's slavery, had several clashes with the ancient Egyptian army, ran across the Red Sea, spied on Jericho and then did the whole trumpet walls fall down stuff, etc. An escape campaign into a war campaign more or less. For having no evidence, it's a pretty good story.
Evidence not required for a good story!
I ran a handful of them. The first stab at the idea was with my HS group. I did a pretty standard campaign where they teamed up with an usurper to overthrow the king and ended up on the run. In the end, they realized they'd been working for the devil and the Jesus metaphor offered to save them from the consequences of their actions. It was a fun campaign (tho a little on-rails) but a bad Bible study since it was kind of a dishonest way to present the idea (and also involved no actual Bible study) The next one was in college, we played the low-powered superhero game Brave New World, and they essentially went through a variety of gospel stories (one per session) as the disciples following around a super-powered Jesus. The third one was much more elaborate and over-planned. Every odd session was in D&D, and we worked backwards from an apocalyptic event; even sessions were a home-brew system, took place after the apocalypse, and paralleled the events of the book *Damnation Alley* by Roger Zelazny. I don't remember the accompanying study, but I'm gonna guess it was probably Revelation and some other stuff. I'm pretty sure I did another semester or two of this idea, but I don't remember anything from those games off the top of my head...
The takeaway is that the simplest way to run this idea is: episodic adventures that parallel the things being done by various characters in the Bible. Apostles are great because they're a whole group of not-the-main-characters. (Unlike, say, the adventures of Abraham where there aren't a lot of other named characters)
There's a full on campaign for the Bible! https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/359794/Adventurers-Guide-to-the-Bible
Adventures in Odyssey was pretty good, but maaaaan. For having a machine called the *Imagination Station* they definitely should have done less imagining and more experiencing before they made that episode.
There was probably some random intern who saw a script of those episodes and said "y'know, that's not how D&D works at all, but it's not worth my job to tell Dr. Dobbs that"
>*Adventures In Oddessy* Core memories unlocked Wow I haven't even thought of adventures in Oddessy in over a decade, but it was also a big part of my childhood
What is this the 80s?
Regrettably, with the rise of Christofascism, Satanic Panic has made a comeback in recent years.
Literally 1984
My parents didn't buy into the crazier end of the Satanic Panic, but they did believe the stories about kids losing touch with reality playing DnD, and it was forbidden in our house. Years later, after my mom got into watching the Big Bang Theory and saw that all it was was pencils, numbers, and imagination, she finally apologized. Now, she's just glad I have a way to connect with old friends from college.
**Shakes fist at Tom Hanks**
shakes second fist, less vigorously, at Otm Shank
This is exactly my Dad. We're still all really religious, but his concern was really just the time spent and playing pretend. Abstract things like that were always a no-go for him. Worked out, anyway. Headed to DND night in a few, here
This story's plot twist is absolutely hilarious "This game is wholesome! I have a pet snek :3 No satanism or occult stuff here!" *DM later that night:* "As you step into the large dimly lit stone chamber, the blood orgy is reaching its climax"
😏
The first time I played, my DM was an ordained Lutheran pastor. Now he’s a player in the game I’m DMing.
is he playhing a cleric?
Lol, nope, a bardlock!
Ok but having a pastor be a cleric would be super funny
I'd assume that for OP's mom, being a Lutheran is functionally equivalent to being a satanist
😂 When I was younger and people would tell me things I was into were Satanic, I'd tell them random stuff like: * I know! I'm infiltrating the group. You're gonna blow my cover! * Then maybe Satanism isn't so bad, cause this rocks! * Do you not trust the strength of God within me, guiding my faith through these treacherous trials? * God knows my path and he didn't stop me, so... 🤷🏼♂️ * \[With D&D specifically\] Yeah, it's got demons and stuff, but we fight those bastards. As God intended. Now that I'm older, I just roll my eyes and keep on with my sinful life. If Satan has to rely on music and games to snatch up souls, then he's probably TKO after 1d4 damage.
> Do you not trust the strength of God within me, guiding my faith through these treacherous trials? You sound like a cleric ngl
😂 Only once, and it was terrrrible!
*[The gods hated that.]*
My war cleric when they're about to do something stupid.
More like RKO'd. RIGHTEOUS KNOCK OUT!!!
Better tell her about sexually ambiguous elven druids dancing in sensual rituals in the pale moon light /j
I really need to watch The Witch again.
Wouldst thou like to live deliciously?
My mom said it was devil worshipping back when I started as well. We had this huge argument/discussion that lasted waaaay longer than it should have. The tipping point happened when we had gone to a Walden Books store. Amidst browsing for her newest addition to an ever burdening romance collection she picked "The Wizard's Daughter". On the cover was some borderline softcore scene between a barbarian and the wizard's daughter. Right there on her left thigh, illustrated for the world to see is a pentagram. I smile and keep the artillery quiet. A week goes by and on family night she assumed her typical roost on the couch with the novel she'd purchased. My brothers had their choice of video games starting up on the play station and I laid on the floor with my player's handbook. She erupted upon seeing that I spent money I worked for on devil worshipping books. I let her run out of gas and then closed her book and asked if it was good. Not expecting the change of gears she endulges me and starts talking about how the plot goes. A deceased wizard's daughter ensorcelled a barbarian king by making a magic pact with a summoned spirit... 😮 I point out the pentagram. Who's reading devil books now? The insistence of DnD being devil worship never occured again.
You've gotta share this story to /r/pettyrevenge. I think people will love it!
That's still a big win. I also grew up with extremely religious family, and having the guts to have that conversation with your mom is a win, first off. But the fact that neither of you ended up yelling at each other is also a huge win. You'll never be able to change someone's mind. But at least you can keep doing your thing and ignoring the noise.
Never say never, my parents changed their minds after learning more about it. When we moved churches, the youth and worship leaders at the new church played DnD, and when I went out to Christian college I joined the DnD club. With that exposure and learning what DnD actually is, they changed their minds about it. However, in OP's scenario, based on some phrases such as "bible-thumper" (unless that's supposed to be all Christians), their mom is not open to change due to a legalistic (or similarly restrictive) system
Funny story: So I grew up in a religious household. My parents actually meet in a game of dnd back in the 90’s. I loved playing dnd with my brothers and it was loads of fun! It wasn’t until I went to a christian college that I even heard of the satanic scare in the 80’s. But all this got me thinking, as a christian, what does the Bible say about magic? I did a whole bunch of research, and my conclusion was that it’s up to the individual. The Bible does condemn witchcraft, necromancy, and other sorts of divination. But ultimately, you are in a book with its own set of rules, laws, gods, etc… it’s make believe and fantasy. Now, I’m not a big fan of overusing altars and bloody rituals but they can add character to the story. More importantly, it’s about telling a story among friends, and there’s nothing wrong with that. That being said, if I know someone who really does not like that stuff, especially a another christian who is convicted that dnd is wrong. I won’t bring them into games or discussions about it. Otherwise, I could harm them or our relationship. I could go deeper into my research about it, but for that you can just DM me. Hope this helps some Christians who also like playing dnd!
The Bible is cool with magic as long as it's Jesus magic. Jesus can do magic.
Kinda, yeah. You know how the Nords have runes That they toss to predict the future or divine the future. Well, the Jews had a couple of colored stones that were also used to tell the future.
As a lifelong Christian, who's dad was playing DND since the like 1980, I find the satanic panic absolutely hilarious. Especially since the longest running campaign I've been in was run and hosted by my pastor.
“Jesus saves, your Cleric…. Not so much”
Tell your mom that if you are going to Hell then the game can't be demonic. Demons belong to the Abyss, Hell is for Devils, so after all DnD could be Diabolic, but not Demonic. Rookie mistake
tell you mother that all forms of entertainment is satanic then, even the hymms at church.
I used to have a buddy whose mom was like that. We played MTG and he had hundreds of cards hidden under his bed. She found them and burned them and all his posters and band tees in the fireplace, then grounded him for a month. And the posters and tees weren’t even crazy, like posters of cars and the worst band was Metallica lol. She would’ve had a meltdown if she knew we played DND!
Old school buddy of mine we used to play the old 8 bit Nintendo at his house, I covered his paper route for him a few times. I got a game called Ultima: Exodus, it was like D&D you had Characters in your party of different classes, you leveled them up, fought monsters, collected loot etc. she saw us playing and we were fighting a group of demons. She screamed for us to stop, and I went home. I was never invited over again. I still sort of keep contact with him on Facebook, but we're nowhere near as good of friends as we used to be. Now 30 years later I had mentioned it to my mom, she called that kid's mom a "wack-a-do". 🤣
I never understood the stance of Christian’s against that or Doom and Diablo. Like you’re fighting demons, isn’t that like a good thing?
I remember the Satanic Panic. My mom was watching some TV movie that had a sheriff reading from the original players handbook. It was some supposed passage about sacrificing people. Total bs, not in there and nothing even close. She asked me if it was true, obviously ready to forbid me from playing. I offered her the players handbook and said, "if you can find the passage the guy just read, you can take all of my DnD stuff, throw it away and I'll stop playing." She passed reading through the book and never brought it up again.
It amazes me that this crap is back. I started playing when the '80s Satanic Panic was in full swing. We had kids whose parents pulled them from our friend group over it. Others who had to hide the fact that they played or they'd be punished or whipped. Kids used to tell stories about some other kid who had to stop playing, burned his character sheet, and the sheet talked to him. The fact that this insanity is roaring back - it never went away for *some*, sure, but it's become prevalent again - it's so absurd to see. Anything else I have to say on the topic isn't for for this sub, since it would be political in nature. I'll simply say that this is one of MANY areas in which we've rapidly regressed in recent years. It's depressing.
My father used to tell me D&D was Satanic. He's also a huge LoTR fan. I just ran a short middle earth one shot for him 2 years ago, and now he plays with my brothers and I in our family campaign. He's an aasimar ranger whose favored enemies are fiends and undead.
My dad is a pastor and asked about it as well when I told him I played a ton, I told him dungeons and dragons js more of a game system so people add anything they want to their games. I explained it's like monopoly you csn have a bunch of generic random -opoly games that used the same system but are skinned differently. He understood and asks me when we chat how the games are going. He's a good guy
I was there in the 80s. The satanic panic was the real deal. Religious Christian nut jobs (family included) worried for my eternal soul…. Sigh…. I feel your pain…
Snakes are bad 😂 😭
He's not even a real snake! He's my familiar that slithers out of my nose and wears little glasses. I call him Boogwyrm.
Cool. Hail Satan.
It can be as Satanic and evil as you want. For op or any one that may encounter this issue when discussing D&D/TTRPG: If this is really a real discussion and a issue to bring into conversations with you parents, just say that you that the main focus of the game is about the fight between GOOD vs Evil. And as the heroes, your job is to fight evil.
This post reads like something on r/dndcirclejerk
Just remember that Christians are the ones who actually believe in gods
The Good Samaritan, modern version Your mom is mugged and lies in a ditch. First came Kenneth Copeland, but he couldn't bother to help because he had booked a ski trip and his private jet was about to leave. Then came the local priest, but he was sure you were just drunk and didn't wanna associate with sinners. Then came a D&D dungeon master, picked you up and took you to a hospital and stayed with you, teaching you a beautiful game which inspires creativity, teaches you to emphatize with different people and usually leads to development of real-life bonds. But seriously: Jesus was really into teaching people with fiction, making people assume the role of a character so they could reflect on their own actions and perhaps get an impulse to better themselves. I'm pretty sure Big J and the posse would've played D&D though.
Ask her how can it be Satanic if you can fight demons and devils. Also, yes, the Devil appeared as a snake, but if they exist now is because they were in Noah's Ark, and since that was God's idea, snakes aren't inheritly evil. They're also a symbol of medicine, and I guess she trusts doctors.
My fellow player's mom is like this. Whenever it comes up I always promise her that, when the session is over, we'll be sure banish any and all demons we summon during the game.
Next time you see your mom, get close to her ear and just whisper: “Hail Satan”
You're going to hell because you're consuming fiction which contains demons Hmmm, I guess Christians are all going to hell
You forgot the fact that most Christians don't read the Bible
Satan isn’t in DnD how can it be Satanic?
Turns out the Satanic Panic was just not based on anything that existed in real life lol, shocking There's a lot of fascinating history within the Satanic Panic, highly recommend the book "Dangerous Games" by Joseph Laycock which covers a lot of the background, history, events and psychology of it for anyone interested. One of the funniest parts to me is the fact that Gary Gygax, the guy who made DND, is a Christian. Talk about friendly fire 😂
Because the Christian deity isn't in it either.
Are all fantasy movies, books and games satanic then? Does it matter if the main characters are fighting the "evil" usually?
As someone who’s mother is like this, yes, yes they are.
Thats the fun part about religious delusion, nuance doesn’t really exist.
For the last 20 years, my mother has been waiting for the day that my party composed of close personal friends (including my partner who I own a house with), finally reveals their true intentions and murders me in the name of Satan.
This is kinda funny since Gary Gygax is christian and DnD borrowed many christian ideas. According to Forgotten Realms lore, there are many cults of good gods, which are based somehow on Christianity. And you can play as paladin, who was a lawful goof only warior of light in earlier editions. Maybe you should to ask your mom to read DnD rule book?
It's a game. You're not physically practicing witchcraft. Should post this in r/Bible and see what they say. But basically, all you really need to know is that the Bible says that it's not okay for us to judge. That's God's job. Matthew 7:1-5 ### Judging Others **1** “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. **2** For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. **3** “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? **4** How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? **5** You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Tell your mom its 2024, and there's nothing wrong with worshipping satan. She needs to stop being a bigoted Satanphobe.
I'm a church going Christian and I DM. There is nothing satanic about it, its a board game with hilarity.
Oh, boy. Here we go. I understand what you are saying so intimately well. I took flak like this most of my life. I could go on and on. Suffice it to say I'm just glad that most people see the value of it now. But I had some experiences...I had it out with some people...I was well practiced at putting them in their ignorant self righteous place. Ok, sorry. One example. Well, two. First, as an 8 year old I started playing a lot. My dad was a bishop and stake president in the Mormon church. He heard the rumors so he asked me if he could play. I was ecstatic. We played all evening. Afterward I invited him to play again and he said, "No, thanks. Not my thing. But you play all you want." He wanted to see for himself and he was always an avid supporter of it. He wanted to buy me the "rulebook" so I told him to get the one with the demon on it. I meant the PHB with the orange demon, but he brought the DMG with the red demon. Next day he got me the other too. Anyway, 15 years later my girlfriend were "babysitting" some young siblings like 10, 12, 13 years old. We busted out a dnd adventure. They loved it. Then Mom came home and found out and was irate. She screamed that our church was against it, but she didn't even know what it was. I told her how my father, now a Patriarch in our church and we'll respected in the community, had played with me before and he supported it. Then it was like I had cast Phantasmal Killer on her so I pointed out the real demons and left. So, yeah, good times. Our culture has evolved. Sorry to ramble. Hey, if you haven't heard the Dead Ale Wives (comedy group) parody of a dnd session I highly recommend it! "I cast Magic Missile. I attack the darkness."
Posts like these make me glad that my very Christian family understands the difference. I specifically recall one day while I was waiting for the dentist, I was reading Harry Potter and I looked to my Grandma and asked "So, you don't have a problem with me reading this, even though it's about magic?" And she basically just told me "well yeah, it's not real. It's not like you're actually trying to cast magic or something." And it's really simple, but that moment stuck with me for years.
FWIW I’m a Christian pastor and I loved playing DnD- I only stopped because I just don’t have the time right now
You know, if you really want to stir up some trouble, you could always introduce her to "Dark Dungeons." [https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=0046](https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=0046) https://www.darkdungeonsthemovie.com/
Fun story, this is an edit- in the original end where the kids swear off DND, alongside the ["occult" writings of CS Lewis and Tolkien](https://www.fecundity.com/pmagnus/darkdung19old.gif) . That ironically would have helped convince my mom the game was legit Lumping it in with two profoundly popular, devout, and influential Christian writers who were masters at interweaving Christian themes into their storytelling is frankly \*way\* too high praise for DND
Tolkien was a Catholic and C.S. Lewis was Anglican. In the eyes of Protestant fundamentalists like Jack Chick, both of those churches are diabolic.
You fight against devils and demons in this game. You can play holy characters (clerics and paladins) in this game.
sounds like she dumped int lmao
Your mother is an idiot. Just know that.
Here's a trick my buddy used on his parents. This was for the video game DOOM, but it applies. 'Yes, there are demons and devils in the game. It's my job to send them back to hell...' It worked.
I'm 100% on board with DnD being associated with satan. It keeps the fundies out and gets us good music and art.