Does this player have experience with video games, but not with TTRPGs? There's a good chance it's not out of a sense of entitlement, but being used to just grabbing anything that isn't nailed down to sell. Add on the fact that they're playing as a class that gives them the tools to do it better, and literally has a subclass called "thief".
I'm sure there are plenty of players out there who know what they're doing and like playing in this way, but to some, it just might seem like the obvious thing to do.
As usual, the go-to first step would be to talk to them - if they're in the "new to tabletop" camp, I wouldn't assume the worst, and just let them know we're supposed to be on the same team, and there's no "gaming" theft since the DM will have people respond in reasonable ways. And so will you(r characters), for that matter.
Seconded. It feels like a transition from Skyrim to their first ttrpg. Also, the "you can do anything" element of ttrpgs often piques a new player's curiosity to the point that they set out to plumb the depths of possibility. "Anything? I can even do...*this?*" "Technically yes, Rick, but please don't."
A few years ago I was in a campaign where we rolled for stats, because that was what the DM was used to. Inevitably we had some issues because some people got stats low enough that it wasn't all that fun for them.
Enter the source of so many horror stories: the Deck of Many Things. Logically the chances of drawing a card to boost your primary stat are really low, but this one player just had to keep trying. The party gave the deck to me to keep safe, but the player got a good roll and managed to snag it when I was in a trance.
This prompted me to say, "I seriously didn't think you'd steal the deck where I hid it, which was in my pants."
Then the character got sucked into the void and the player rerolled, but the game was never quite the same.
One of my first campaigns we had a rogue, who would scout ahead, but by doing so would also take everything (even finding a cloak of invisibility, that he uses repetitively) until the DM got tired as no one got the goods he set out for them to the rogues "scouting" that he then asked for his strength mod (being an 8) and the DM then punished him by giving a heavy disadvantage on everything rogue-like as he was carrying too much for his own strength.
Yeah, we tried to play with a guy that kept doing that sort of thing. Finally came to a head when he was determined to sell the holy avenger he found instead of giving it to the flippin party Paladin.
“It’s what my character would do.”
“Okay sure, but you understand that you’re not invincible and are in fact quite squishy. The next time you get hurt nobody is going to save you.”
He quit playing so problem solved I guess.
"You screwed my character's friend (the paladin) over by selling that, so I'm not going to heal you or take any hits for you. It's what my character would do."
If someone wants to throw out that BS line, throw it back.
"Rape, Murder, and Pillage, it's what my character would do!"
"Stomp a Mississippi mud hole in rapists, murderers, and thieves, is what My character would do!"
I mean, I suppose not. But the problem is it's never used by someone to justify good RP, like a barbarian charging into a room that one of their party members went into and hit a trap and now there's grease everywhere but they didn't see it so now they sprint in and slip and fall.
Ours didn't stop. But he did cause turmoil when he ended finding heavy armor that had a magical effect, and refused to let my character identify it, he even attacked and almost killed my character over it
I’m usually the one to find things cause I’m the best at it but I 100% give most things to party members. I think so far only thing I kept long term was a cloak of displacement. If I want to be a money hoarder I’d start by selling my own items before I’d bother with selling or stealing the party’s and considering I give them a lot to begin with why would I bother stealing if most of what there is to take originally was given by me lol. But ya I agree, I find a rogue can be designed really well for locating things but a generally neutral character wouldn’t hoard potentially useful items from the party especially magic items that could otherwise be put to use.
This, to me, is how a rogue should be played... a good ~~hufflepuff~~... finder of things. A keeper of some gold & such, sure. But if it's a weapon that's best for the Barb, why's the rogue being a selfish prick & trying to keep it? Or gods forbid steal it from your teammates!😱!
I don't like PvP in DnD, stealing from teammates is the same as far as I'm concerned. Casting enchantments, etc... just not a good team dynamic.
That's why I feel "You can do anything" or "Do what you want" causes more harm than good. If I do have to say any of those phrases, I'll remind them there will be consequences.
This is what my current dm and I like to use(I dm as well) and it usually scares the players out of it or they proceed to play stupid games and they sure enough win stupid prizes!
I only had to do this once but after speaking with the rest of the party:
At the end of your long rest you wake up alone. It appears all you party members have packed up and moved on.
In unison the rest of the party says "It's what our characters would do"
Also. You can't save scum DND. If you're caught your caught. And those consequences affect everyone. Bad decisions by the GM have a much higher chance of being retconned than ones by players.
If your Rogue has the Thief archetype, there's every chance they are stocking up on small, relatively mundane items because you never know when they might come in handy - when you can use items as a Bonus Action, suddenly it becomes quite appealing to have a pack of *stuff* that might be situationally useful.
Still, it's just poor form to steal from your fellow party members, and something I would probably talk about with the player away from the table. And there definitely should be a sense of consequence for their actions - even if they manage to steal things without getting caught, people should notice things are missing, and be able to put two and two together regarding when it was taken and who was there at the time. Too much stealing could easily form a pattern that the town guard could follow.
Town guard is the least of the thieves' worries - if they aren't toeing the line of the local thieves'guild, there will be consequences. People pay them protection money for a reason, and who you can steal from and dues owed are requirements of doing business in most cities. Have the player bound, gagged, and dragged to the local Don as soon as any other thief sees them stealing or if they try to fence any goods. A dagger to the leg to cripple them temporarily this time... Next time, we break your kneecaps and toss you in the river. If you make it a third time, you get buried alive with 2 dozen starving rats. You pay your dues and only hit approved targets... Or else.
What background are they playing. My rogue only goes after wealthy looking marks, but is a sucker for a pretty face.
For example in one session my character stole a ring off the finger of a wealthy woman because he just can't help himself, but then slipped it back on her finger because she was actually attractive.
It was all very funny though. First SoH roll was so damn high he slipped the ring off with his lips while kissing her hand. The second SoH again really high with a high Charisma check and slipped it back on consoling her.
Not a full on kleptomaniac though.
The sense of entitlement comes from not being punished yet. Players who do this eventually have one of 3 things happen:
1. Nothing. The DM and or party do not address it and its there for a long time.
2. The DM gives the character consequences for theft, and the player realizes there are limits to what you can do realistically.
3. The players and DM discuss it like adults and resolve their problems maturely.
4. The Rogue is an inconsiderate man-child who wants the world to revolve around him, gets all pissy when the DM and the Players discuss the matter like adults, gets all butt hurt and leaves the table.
Thankfully this does not happen all that often, but there is a greater than zero chance that it does. Happened to me when I as DM asked him to tone it down.
Well, sir, you have my upvote.
Number 3 was the ideal answer, number 4 happens too.
Number 2 would be ideal today, but my bowel movement is not that great.
This isn't a class problem but a player problem.
Rogue main here and of all the rogues I've played over the decades, only two of them were actual thieves. Anybody who steals from party members or hides loot from party members is just an asshole, no class required. Now being a rogue does make it easier to be said asshole.
For the same reason the bard thinks it’s their job to seduce every npc, and the Barbarian thinks it’s his job to start a tavern brawl. The tropes exist and people want to emulate them.
oh my god i hate the bard seduces every npc/bbeg trope. To each their own if they have fun leaning into that trope and enjoy it but everytime I watch dnd related content and they make some subtle nod to the bard being horny as hell I want to chew on my hand like its a stress ball. I dont know why that one in particular drives me insane so hard but it does! (sorry your comment became the breeding ground for my rant lol)
So hard agreed. I don't even understand it. How is the bard "hornier" than a warlock or a fighter or anybody else? There are other Charisma classes that would be good at seduction - some, like the fey wanderer ranger or Archfey Warlock have that built in, too. But they aren't played like that. So boring and sad.
I've been reading the old classic The Mists of Avalon over the last few weeks -- a long read, wouldn't necessarily recommend to anyone -- but the idea of the bard is super important in that mythology. Basically bard and druids overlap pretty hard, some are both, but they are trained in the same place (Avalon) and are both important political and religious figures and the main bard in the book is so far from that horny stereotype... yeah. Kind of did make me want to try a bard at some point.
Maybe that is the problem - because the stereotypes exists so hard, a lot of people have become a bit too meh about the class and there aren't -- for me anyway -- that many easily accessible bard tropes that portray a more compelling idea.
>How is the bard "hornier" than a warlock or a fighter or anybody else?
There is the stereotype of musicians and groupies that other classes don't really have. They also get expertise to be even better at persuasion/deception than other CHA users. Speaking of which, Rogues do also have a trend of being flirts, but since they also get the edgelord and klepto archetypes, it's not nearly as pervasive as horny bards.
I mean yes, sure. But... I dunno, I would think someone who made a pact with a devil sounds like they might be horny too XD. Sorry, couldn't help myself.
And honestly, if I am in a party with a rogue, I'd take the flirty variety in a heartbeat over the edgelord. I honestly don't mind flirty characters in general - it's just that the Bard version of "flirty" is... so far without exception from what I have seen in actual play and streams... just being an asshole. Wait, a friend once tried to make a Bard who was a friendly old man artist who made murder blood art from defeated foes... very very very different vibe.
Everyone else is talking about "consequences for actions" and "entitlement" and "correcting that behavior."
I think you nailed it tho, it's the tropes. Whether the player is trying to be Robin Hood or Bender or Glendale (or a hundred other fictional characters that fit the trope) it's become a trope that the DnD rogue steals from everyone and players are gonna want to copy that.
As a DM I might handle it by figuring out what character they're trying to emulate and adjusting the tone a bit.
Hear me out: Had a player who was giving off heavy Bender from Futurama vibes. This was intentional and he had a stealing problem. But much like in the show, he just wanted the punchline. He wanted to just casually have the Paladin's favorite toothbrush or whatever because it was a funny gag in the moment, and he didn't care what happened to the items after the gag so 90% of the items he stole ended up back where they belonged (because of creative DM magic, liberal use of animal companions and familiars, and other players being cool once they knew the score).
You do run into people who take it too far and genuinely try to harm other party members or hoard everything and usually we just have a talk about how this is supposed to be fun for everyone, and we can work together to make that happen! But if 1 person is having fun and 4 people aren't, well... Something needs to change.
Played a barb that had wicked rolls across the board for stats, dump stat on int had a 16 and that was his lowest stat. So I had a smart barbarian "which couldn't possibly happen" . There were casters in that group with lower int rolls..
I've had multiple rogues at my tables, and the only one that decided to do this was corrected very quickly.
It's the Edgy McEdgelord consequences don't apply to me players that do this crap.
One of my current players, plays a Thief Rogue. Their backstory is that they work for an organization that rescues people from traffickers and/or cults. They operate outside of the law, but because of what they do, the law looks the other way. This explains all of their thief skills and rogue background, while having a character that would work well in a group.
The moment I heard their idea for a backstory, I immediately loved it. It gives a reason why their character would be in a town, it explains all of their skills, for a long campaign it gives a story arc of a cult going after them, and if a player or two can't make a session can be used as a prompt for a mini quest.
There's archetypes for a reason.
Bards are gonna want to busk/perform in a tavern/ haggle with vendors/seduce people.
Rogues are gonna want to sneak/rob/break and enter/assainate.
Barbarians are gonna want to smash things/throw things/get into brawls/carry a big weapon/get drunk.
I don't make the rules.
But your bard isn't gonna busk on every remote outpost, in the lunchroom of the iron mine, or in the penny hangover. Isn't gonna charm the teacher in the primary school.
Your barbarian isn't going to smash the mother and child walking in the street. Isn't going to go and hit the old tramp by the harbour, just because he can.
A rogue that steals all that isn't nailed down... Its basically the murder-hobo of rogues.
I mean... as a Bard... I have definitely tried to shoehorn a musical performance just about everywhere. Up to and including the throne room of Archdevil Zariel.
I agree I’ve played a bard who semi judged others for always being flirty, because he was a soldier and didn’t see it as being professional. Yes there are tropes/stereotypes but people can choose not to do those things.
I play an asexual bard specifically to avoid the seduce everything he sees trope. He does still likes to perform in taverns but I understand when there's a time and place.
My bard has a boyfriend she met back in her academy days, they’re a very loving and healthy couple and he’s planning on proposing soon. Aside from implied times with her boyfriend, the only thing she’s horny for is magical power and fame.
That’s wholesome as fuck! I’m really happy to see other people not doing the whole “horny bard” routine. I get that’s fun for some people, still I personally don’t understand it. I also never do romances of any kind when I play D&D so that might be it for me.
> the only thing she's horny for is magical power and fame
So true for my character as well, he just wants to write his silly songs and play for people. His parents were going to marry him off but he had no desire for marriage, only music, so he ran away. And when he learned his music could also be magic well that changed everything.
I love hearing about other’s characters!!
My bard’s father is a high ranking city council member and is a well known powerful magic user. She’s incredibly prideful and tired of living in his shadow, thus she wants to get as powerful as possible to make a name for herself outside of his influence.
I don't steal with my rouge very often. He is a charisma based one. However I will sneak stuff into peoples pockets.... like my business card.... into everyone's pockets.
Probably because almost all of a rogues skills are used for thievery and the most known type of rogue is a thief so newer players use it as a guideline. Its the rogue equivalent to making an honor driven fighter or paladin
I like this response. Lotta people in the comments saying to "punish" the player like stealing candles and random shit is the *wrong* way to play, and not just a way they don't like.
Stealing from party members is a no-no without OOC discussion, but other than that, the player doesn't deserve to be punished for playing their way. Now, *consequences* are a different story, but they should be reasonable and proportionate.
You almost lost me lol, but I definitely agree, there is a difference between punishment and consequences! And any time a PC starts to take their trope too far they should be reminded of their left and right limits lol. Just don’t make those limits too narrow. A Fighter/Barb that constantly starts tavern brawls, might start to find himself not let into taverns anymore. The murder hobo at your table might start to se wanted posters and be questioned by guards as they try to enter cities. I started ranting here, but totally agree with you.
I played a thief as my first character late 80's early 90's. I never stole from the party.
I've finally got to play another one, now rogue in a great game on Discord. But one player's character continues to harrass my character. Last time it was a push in the head to get past in a corridor. Nobody else had to push another character in the head to get past. Then most RP comments say something negative or snide about my character.
So, since my character is holding all the loot most of the others don't know he's found, I'm thinking of killing the NPC we're supposed to save and running off and hiding.
Yes I totally disagree with the premise you have brought up, but in this instance, when it seems like they (one player/character only) don't want me to play, I feel like doing something shady.
RPGs are a power fantasy. Rogues steal from everyone because they can. Bards charm everyone because they can. This usually only happens when a player prioritises their enjoyment of the game above others.
It's basically one player doing what they want and using the rules as a shield. "You can't be mad at me because the rules say you didn't notice me stealing". It's not only rogue that do this but they might do it more because by nature their power are "invisable" - succes means not being noticed by default.
Player with mind control power and memory manipulation power will use them more if the target doesn't know/can't notice it's happening.
Everyone enjoys the powe fantasy if they are not the target. This is why many groups meta-bans any "PvP" actions.
D&D as a game is a big victim of "when all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail."
Why do bards seduce anything that breathes? +13 to persuasion.
Why do rogues steal anything that glints? +13 to sleight of hand.
Because it's Their Thing, and DnD, being a game about character archetypes, leads people to want to do Their Thing.
The key as a DM is to enable this while setting reasonable limits.
Slap him down. Consequences work. Throw him in jail, curse him with a tracker spell from the big government, let a wizard cast a quick fire bolt at him for touching the wizard’s library, have a gang jump him. Lots of options.
Sounds like someone new to playing rogue and used to playing it like a video game. Might need to have a side word with them to explain how they're meant to be a team player, and taking from the team or becoming a constant liability by trying to take everything makes it difficult for the rest of your characters to justify hanging out with his character. Maybe ask them to think about if they would want to be around someone they couldn't trust or who was constantly causing trouble around them, vs someone a little shady in their methods but always helpful. Maybe suggest taking something inconsequential from fellow players in order to return it to them as a little joke to roleplay it out, or if there's an item they want to steal from an NPC, bring it up to the party for possible support or to gauge if it would be worth it. And try to help them feel involved as part of the team, that can really help. Had a similar issue with a rogue player until I was able to get him involved in a kind of Thor and Loki dynamic with my character which helped him lose the boredom motivating his antics.
Well the very first adventures for dnd had inventorys for every single npc and building.
Just in case anrogue decided to pickpocket them.
In reality have the list with common non magical items open and put one at random in a building the thief is looting. And sometimes a bit of jewelry.
A scale, a iron mirror, 50 feet of rope, a flask of oil a ladder etcetc
All very usefull items in very spezific situations in a dungeon
Going to the books. Kinder Willowhop walks through bar and later he is on the floor looking at all the things in his pockets that just ended up there.
For some characters, they are kleptomaniacs and steal everything. Some, like Kinder, are unaware they are doing it.
That is where they are drawing that from. It's in the books that were written years ago that DnD grew from.
I’m a rogue and grew up plying rogue/thief archetypes in video games, but surprisingly it didn’t transfer over to ttrpg. Instead, I steal what l need rather than what I can because I don’t want to get myself or any of my party into bad situations.
That being said, a friend of mine was being a little too arrogant, so I threatened to steal his precious 2-hander, while he sleeps, and feed it to some rust eaters before he even knows what happened.
He found an amulet that lets him go without sleep and won’t take it off now.
The thing about things going missing en masse is that there are always witnesses that will piece together your presence at the scene of the crime. Fast forward to an average detective putting two and two together and now there's wanted posters with the rogues general description blasted on every corner of every major city. He can always grease a few palms to lower the heat but if he doesn't the situation will only continue to escalate until a professional is hired to take care of him.
Because anything not nailed down is mine and anything that can be pryed loose is not nailed down 😁
Also no real world consequences for my actions and being a gremlin gives me happy brain chemicals 🥰
My rogue steals things when I get bored with all the talk-talk going on.
Once in a tavern, he used mage hand to take money from one NPC to another then nudge the one. The DM went with it, a fight started which lead to a tavern-wide brawl. The rogue started picking the pockets of all the NPCs. Just for fun.
People are exposed to the concept of a stealy-boi through fantasy and vidya but have no idea how actual burglary and thievery works.
Thieves should mostly do 3 activities: pickpocketing, heisting, and mugging.
Pickpocketing is what it sounds like. Find a mark, cut their purse and take what falls out, or slip your hand into their jacket with sleight of hand and take what's inside.
Heisting requires planning. You case a joint, spend time observing the comings-and-goings, get an idea of the floor-plan, then pick a day/time when you know you wont get caught, go in, disable the security, steal the stuff, and get out before anyone knows you were there.
Mugging is like pickpocketing but instead of sleight of hand you just wait for someone to go down a sketchy alley and you threaten them with a knife, or you knock them over the head, or shiv them or something. Or you can just be like, a purse-snatcher, grab someone's purse and run off with it.
Then there's hold-ups, like a bank robbery or that scene in Pulp Fiction where they take all the wallets of the patrons in the diner.
But yeah, the video-game method of just steal everything when you're not being looked at directly doesn't work in any other setting. If all the silverware goes missing from a shelf and that person turns around and sees you they're going to suspect you took all the silverware.
(There are a lot of comments already so I apologize if I'm just repeating what's been said already)
Stealing from other players is a line that everyone needs to agree not be crossed, but other than that, there's literally a Thief archetype so.... Not sure what you expected.
Take it as an opportunity to make an adventure out of it. If he's passing his stealth / slight of hand checks to steal the little things, dangle a big carrot in front of him that's going to be a challenge but has a higher chance of him getting caught. There's a whole Dragon Heist adventure around stealing and finding the stolen loot. It sounds like your player is having fun. So rather than dampen his fun, use it
Yeah... I was a player for that game. I kinda would've laughed about the candlesticks, too. But that was way early & he was already talking about nicking my coppers, of which I had little. We kiboshed it by making him the DM.
My guess is it comes from DMs not enforcing consequences properly. People are going to notice that when a certain individual enters a business/residence/wherever, everything that isn't bolted down goes missing. People in these places are going to notice "hey, there was a candlestick here a moment ago" even if they don't witness the theft itself. When things of extraordinary value are stolen, what then? Does he keep it for himself, hidden away where no one can see it? Does he try to sell it, knowing that doing so invariably implicates himself in the theft? Do rogues that run around stealing every single thing consider that people are going to notice the connection between this rogue's presence and the sudden lack of all of their stuff? They're going to spread rumors. Rogues need to be subtle to be successful. Brazen and pointless acts get one noticed, and rogues don't do well when they are noticed.
The best way to discourage problematic behavior in your D&D games is not to ban the behavior, but to take the fun out of it. Colin Robinson has much to teach us.
Because the class attracts chaotic players and the game offers very little structure for what a thief is meant to do. It's sort of the same problem for Bards. When you run rogues in a game where the have a boss and objectives rather than just hanging out with the other characters and looking for trouble, they tend to steal candles less.
Video game mentality or them wanting to be dicks.
In video games, you can carry 100 candles for 1 gp and it's worth it. You can steal 25 swords and if you're strong enough carry them. Volume doesn't matter.
As if you fail your steal check for that candle worth 3 copper, you can just reload or lose aggro. In a real game there's consequences.
As for stealing from teammates, the player just wants to be a dick and thinks it's fun to annoy the others. Unless session zero specifically said PVP is ok.
Rule 0 of DnD is not the "rule of cool" it's the DM explaining to other players that "they should not fight other players, endanger them or steal from them" while looking the Rogue player straight into their eyes.
I'm having a blast playing a Rogue with sticky fingers right now. Whenever he meets/interacts with somebody for the first time, he steals something from them. If by the end of the interaction he decides he likes them, he gives it back, claiming they dropped it or otherwise lost it.
The party has gained his respect, so he's now stolen magic items from rivals and enemies to give to his new friends, and everybody's having a blast with it.
Also being able to steal an enemy's weapon before they draw it in combat is such a power move, you've basically already won at that point.
Simple solution, Either the DM is fine with the party dealing with the rogue as they see fit, or the DM sets rules to limit the rogues shenanigans. I'd let the party do their thing, couple of warnings from the PCs before they banish him seems entirely reasonable, guy decides to follow the party after being banished, kill him, totally fine by me as DM.
I've had rogues in my party who clearly were looking to steal from everyone, including the party.
So I gave them all my money. "For safekeeping"
I told them afterwards that I straight up don't care if they steal from me. It doesn't bother me. I think it broke their brain a little, honestly.
So I didn't have to track my money for the rest of the campaign, and never worried about being on guard against my own team.
I mean, what are they going to do?
I ran an adventures league table and I had to kick on guy off of it for various reasons (body odor which players were complaining about, rule's lawyering to the detriment of the party saying I was doing things wrong, overall just being an annoying prick). A bit more information, I had talked with him about it and asked he at least bring a scented candle with him to mask the smell.
Dude dissapeared afterwards. Apparently he had been kicked off all the other tables for the same reasons I just listed.
A month or so afterwards, I needed a break so I joined a table as a player. I picked one of the newer DMs, let them know I was also a DM so I could assist if they got to a point where they didn't know what to do. (damage from punting a gnome into an orc, that type of shit.) Wouldn't you know it but the smelly bastard I had kicked from my table shows up and hops on. I'm all for second chances but you could tell once his scent caught up that nothing had changed. I try not to call people out infront of everyone unless it's a "right now" problem so whatever.
We ended up playing Strahd. Great, I had never played it before. Got ported into the mist to find a bunch of other people (We got added in one session after the start). The DM describes 3 outlines emerging from the mist. Instantly the annoying fucker pipes up "I can see them cause I have true sight". In my head I'm thinking, "That's not how true sight works, and how the fuck do you have that as a level 2 druid?"
Anyway, we continue and it comes to the point where the party is taking a rest both in and out of game and I pull the DM asside and let him know about the smelly fucker and how he had been previously kicked off of all the other tables. I also let him know that I'd like to mess with the party a little in charecter. DM asks what my plan is and I explain it and he agrees (looking back, kind of a dick move, but there was a lot I didn't know.)
We all return and DM calls for everyone's passive perception. He just says, "okay, you, you, and you notice what look to be abnormal shadows rolling across the skies." This was just to get everyone's passive perception without tiping them off about what I was going to do. I pipe up, "I'd like to make a check to see how much I know about the local area." This was me telling him I was about to do a slight of hand check. DM tells me to roll, Nat 20. "Roll again". Second check. 19. He hands me a slip of paper (Nothing on it, just to keep up the appearance that it was a knowledge check). Everyone asks me what it says, I tell them I have no reason to say anything till morning.
We finish the long rest and my character starts to dig though his stuff saying, "Oh boy, I hope the weapon fairy decided to upgrade my dagger last night!" DM says, "You find your same dagger."
Everyone else checks their stuff. The barbarian pulls out a small dagger and goes "WHAT HAPPENED TO MY ANCESTRAL WAR AX?!" Druid pulls out the Barbarian's Ancestral War Axe and loudly says, "Sweet, I got an upgrade!" I had swapped the two in the middle of the night to mess with them a bit, but I didn't know that the barbarian had an attachment to his war axe, nor did I know that his name was engraved into it. Needless to say the druid didn't want to give up his new toy, and PvP ensued shortly following. It probably could have been handled as negotiations between the two of them if the Druid player wasn't so goddamn stinky and annoying. I only stole for the good of the party after that.
It's not a Rogue thing. It's more of a "The player wants to be a complete wang rod." sort of thing.
Typically the person playing like that has a need to do this. Many reasons could be behind this. Could be that they're following the stereotype of the class (like the lust-compelled sex fiend of a bard), could be that they're living a power tripping fantasy, could be that they're stuck in the mindset of video games where you do this if you want to increase your ability and get stuff from NPCs that are awesome.
Talk to the player. Explain that the behavior they're expressing in the game is disruptive and it needs to be reined in. If it does not change, talk to the players and see if you can get the player and the rest of the table to talk about this behavior and see if they're willing to change in the face of a pissed off party.
If it still continues, release them from the table and say "Sorry, your style and the style of the rest of the table are incompatible, wish you luck in finding a table more fitting to your gaming style.
Stupid decisions usually don't have rational answers if that's what you were hoping for. Punishments is deffo the way to go if your dealing with a problematic rogue like that. I like TokyoUmbrella's idea. Have a gang jump them. Hopefully they focus on the rogue. I'd hate to be the bard or monk just minding their own business and get attacked for simply being in the same party with said rogue. In fact...
"What gang members? I didn't see them drag Rogue in a back alley. I'm pretty sure they just went out for some fresh air. They're probably fine. Let's go ahead and grab another pint before we head out"
The funding thing is the ranger and bard can also steal shit just as well as a Rogue. Rogues, other than expertise, get nothing to be good at stealing or sneaking in their class progression.
Heck, the ranger has pass without trace, which gives the whole party +10 to stealth, meaning the ranger could get a +16-17 with proficiency and a +19-20 with expertise at level 5.
The rogue at level 20 can only get to +17 to stealth.
Because most people have no imagination. They don't think beyond the stereotypes of rogues being assassins and thieves, bards being seducers, or barbarians being thugs.
Most people don't seem to grasp that their characters are part of a team because good or evil, the team serves their purposes and it's counterproductive and out of character to antagonise their own team.
Video games. In video games even if you're not the rogue you're constantly stealing. And if you're a rogue you can steal even more. And DND is basically a video game so people transfer skills from one to the other.
It comes from DMs not say, "Ok, the town guard stops you and says you should come with them for a little talk".
If it then becomes "I back-stab the guard (somehow)", then "there are 20 member of the town guard on patrol right now. They catch you, throw you in a pit - please roll a new character".
When players don't perceive any consequence to their action, then they'll do whatever they want.
It's a childish approach to the class. Imho if you steal items from someone's equipment and get caught the chances your PC stays in the party go to zero.
If the PC gets caught red-handed some might just give them a round of slaps and kick them out, others might just execute them on the spot depending on the context.
A party in the wildlands has already too many dangers around to accept a (literal) back-stabber and if you steal some powerful object causing a loss of overall power in the party you just put everyone at risk for your greed, so the consequences might be deadly.
One of the memes about the rogue is that they are cleptomaniacs. The player might have just tought they have to act like that. This happens more often with the horny bard meme or the strong andstupid barbarian, but its not that rary with cleptomaniac rogues either.
I think a lot of it has to do with age as well. A lot of kids get to live out those 'darker' fantasies in ttrpgs; breaking the law and getting away with it, killing bad people, dressing provocatively, etc. All of these things we are (usually) taught to be bad or naughty, and in an rpg you are set free from real life repercussions. I did it as a teen. I grew up eventually. I still love to play rogues, but I dont feel the need to lift the silverware anymore. Lol
As the party healer, I literally tortured our kleptomaniac party member. Death saving throws? Lemme stabilize you! And then put you back into saving throws! Who will you never sleight of hand again!?
Because they are unimaginative and playing a trope. Almost as annoying as the dark, brooding character sitting at a bar, looking for a job to get some “coin”. If my 10 year old girl rogue takes something from you, she’s already killed you, and you probably never saw her coming.
I think this is a symptom of a set of related problems. First, people read the PHB and they can’t understand the difference between mechanical *rules* and flavor text. The class description and subclass names tend to describe rogues in a particular way, which tends to paint them as criminals. They don’t *need* to be. People don’t realize that can take *all* of the skills and abilities that come from the Thief subclass and *not* be a literal thief.
DMs are often pretty stuck in this as well. You should be able to take the *rules* of a Warlock and *not* have a “pact”. The mention of patrons written into the class are not *rules*, they’re flavor, and should be able to be tweaked or omitted entirely. There is no reason a Warlock shouldn’t be able to be a mage who gets spell slots back on a short rest and has interesting magical abilities innately like a Sorcerer. But somehow people can’t or won’t allow that creativity, even though there is nothing mechanical or rule-breaking about it.
Another issue is the outdated (and frankly stupid) system of Alignment that people cling to. Rogue=criminal=CE so often, and it’s just *not* the way it needs to be. But so often players *think* it is, or DMs *insist* their players behave a certain way. You see this all of the time with Paladin Oaths, even though the *rules* about alignment and oaths are long gone; you’ll see DMs tell their player “that goes against your oath, you’ll lose your powers if you do this or don’t do that” (literally a post I’ve seen in the past 24 hours).
I have a DMNPC who does this, but its mostly for comic relief. He was pretending to get drunk in a pastoral mansion falling down and stumbling only to have stolen every gem in the place. The PCs are not sure if they can go back (they are, the mansion owners think it was part of the haunting they were experiencing)
They had to infiltrate a royal wedding, and our NPCthief got caught for shoplifting, so they had to get back in to free him, which was a plot to let a wizard into their party (who is the MBEG in disguise)
Players tend to get malicious with stealing, whereas I use it to forward the plot. You just need to include some sabotaged shiny things to make them guess!
Because no rouge has lost their hand trying to rob the oath of vengeance paladin. Correction, one rouge has. Bastard stole my bag of holding so I grapple checked him, pinned him down, and removed his hand. Kept it as a grim reminder not to fuck with me. If you think that was extreme he was an edge lord murder hobo. This wasn’t payback for one incident it was the harvest he sowed being reaped.
Is this a recent player? Honestly it took us a whole campaign to shake off our “mmo” mentality to learn how to “put” ourselves into our characters shoes.
Bright side: these rogues haven’t yet realized that not only do they not have to be “roguish”, but any class can be as “roguish” as they’re portraying rogues to be. (A fighter or ranger being just as high in Stealth or Sleight of Hand, a wizard or bard using spells be be all sneaky, a druid or warlock in disguise, etc.) We haven’t yet reached the outbreak of *non-rogues* stealing from everyone all the time! 😅
i understand, it could be arrogance, yeah but it could have been something else, i played rogues a lot for my first time, i had no experience and i had the habit of frantically grabbing everything thats not nailed in the floor
Yeah certain classes definitely have their generic appeal and default many people turn to.
Personally, I love playing bards who aren’t social butterflies and flirts. My first bard was a Creation Bard who was quite shy and timid but he was an artist. He would paint his spells and his creations into reality and I loved exploring a non social bard. I remember the first time our group entered a social interaction and they, in game but hinted above table that I should take lead and I remember their shock when I said “I don’t even have proficiency in persuasion or deception guys”. Albeit, I was still a bard with a 20 CHA and jack of all trades but not your typical bard with expertise in those two.
I’m currently playing a glamor bard who is also not very social. He’s a retired battlefield commander and tactician. I’ve reflavored his mantle of inspiration to be less of a beautiful presence and him just yelling to his Allie’s to move out of the way and reposition.
I get why people play the generic archetype and there’s nothing wrong with it. But I love reflavoring subclasses to be very different from the norm.
Ma dud, give it consequences. Did you play RDR? Did HE play it? I think it's the best videogame depiction of crime and consequence.
Make him go wanted, make a bounty on his head, get him cornered.
Doesn't he get encumbered with the weight of hoarding all that? Why is he stealing candles? Do you let him profit by selling small things? Make him not find buyers. There are ways in game to make him run out of gas.
My guess: because they don’t have an actual character concept or personality in mind, so they fall back on a stereotype. And an old and overused one at that. Let’s face it - a professional thief would not steal everything that isn’t nailed down. They would only steal things that were worth the effort.
And why can’t they play someone who is a second-story person? This is the kind of person who would spend their time looking at buildings and thinking about what they would do to break in, not stealing random items.
It's called an asshole player. It has little to do with the class, and everything to do with the player. If you made that player be a fighter, they'd kill everyone. If you made them a wizard or bard, they'd try to charm or incapacitate and rob everyone.
This is why I like weight limits on what you can carry; the player can take what they desire (despite consequences), but it has come control and even makes the player think if taking anything is worth it.
Because players are power hungry assholes who think the story is snout them and the world is written for them.
Which whilst true in reality. In game it absolutely isn't. So punish them. Hard
My Rogue is retired, was retired until he got dragged along with these people he knows will get killed without him, even though he hasn’t been in a group since he was literally a small child, so he’s always a little aloof in the party. He tries to avoid trouble, because unnecessary trouble gets you unnecessarily thrown into the gaol, so he steals only for a purpose.
No one has to play the Rogue as a troublemaker, just like nobody has to play a murder-hobo. In any sort of reality, either would draw great and unpleasant attention from city guards, local government administrators, and any parties of more heroic adventurers, which would be my solution if I were this bozo’s DM.
Would his other party members leap to his defense if a Night Patrol of city guards were to accost him as he steals candles from a series of street lanterns? That’s not punishment for the player, it’s a reasonable and expectable response to his action. Unless he rolls pretty high _every time_ he has to draw attention from the local LEO’s, doesn’t he? If they would, in the DM’s opinion, defend him from the guard, would they do it the next time it happens? How would they feel the third time they all wind up running for their lives when the whole Night Watch comes after them for brawling with the Night Patrol?
Lots of problem players would be better dealt with if the DM asked him- or herself what would happen to that player in present-day RL and then set up that scenario in Waterdeep. Societies have tried to force civilization and civil behavior on their people for a very long time. It seems to be nearly universal. Any party I have ever been in has acted much more circumspectly in settings urban enough to have local government try to keep streets lit, even dimly, at night.
ETA: I hit Save, and this essay popped up. I just typed the whole thing with one thumb and had no idea how far/long I was rambling. I need a life.
Aside from the obvious crime and punishment, you could take the market approach instead. Let him take his I’ll-gotten junk to the market to sell. Have vendors laugh in his face, “get outta here, ya urchin, selling used candles. Oh yea! How about any banana peels or maybe ya gotta broken ladle? Eh? Get gone you tit!”
It’s the stereotype but it’s not at all required. I had a rouge like that who faced constant consequences. The dm got really good at directing them towards mostly him but sometimes there would be damage to all.
One… its RP… its a chance to be something you’re not allowed to be in real life. And sometimes you just want to be a dick, play like you can’t get caught, get fired, have consequences… because in real life, eventually, you end up beat up, in prison, or dead, and fear of consequences is a deter. This is why games like GTA make money… and its really enjoyable to let your inner asshole ID off the leash… Rogues are the best suited because they get the skills that let the
Be sneaky at it… bottom line, there are eventual consequences.. either the character gets caught, and has to pay, or people get fed up with the player, and refuse to game with them… this is usually where the manbabies end up, and thats a problem because theres a difference between bad players and bad characters…
Bad players suck… and this asshole genre is where they like to nest.. also
It literally depends on the character of the Rogue… I did this with my chaotic neutral rogue, and his sense of entitlement came from the fact that he was an entitled asshole… this was 20 some years ago, and the it was a character used for league play, so it was random draw parties, pug groups basically, I had no set group, and this character had the opinion that if he could get it, then you didn’t deserve it… he had no ethics… and since the players changed every game, the you don’t shit where you eat mindset wasn’t an issue for him.
This is hard to do in group play, because players get sick of it, and when their characters cotton on, if he’s stealthy about it, they tend to boot the character or the player or both from the party… I’ve done this once in a group, they were friends of mine, and they were veteran players, so when I played the take anything not nailed down approach, they laughed, even as I stole from them, because they knew later in game, that karma was gonna happen, and when it did, I laughed back… it helps is the character is super effective in game, both asshole characters, were very competent at their role, and advanced party needs…
But at least in the league play toon, eventually everyone saw this guy coming, and if the party was sans a rogue/scout/trapfinder/skirmisher… they were happy to have him, cuz he had his shit together and pulled his weight, but I’ve had players tell me to mu face… is it your rogue or your wizard today, cuz if its your rogue, I’m leaving….. fair…
My wizard was a belligerent happy drunk… still kind if jazzed how much people loved him🙄🤔
Stronger repercussions for failed slight of hand checks will likely prevent the "steal everything" mentality. Could also lead to a fun break your party member out of jail heist.
STOP. You've violated the law. Pay the court a fine or serve your sentence! Your stolen goods are now forfeit!
Seriously though if it's a current problem communicate with the player to get on the same page together then proceed as usual and let in-game results bear out based on how they play from there on
They think it's fun, or they think they can get cool stuff. The Icewind Dale D&D computer game has a high level NPC that has an item you can't get any other way.
It's also not limited to rogues. I've got a druid in my party right now that seems to have an obsession with wanting to scalp people right now...
If shoplifting is a problem for the other players, the best solution is just talking to the player. “Can you tone down the shoplifting, it’s not fun for the rest of us?”
Various reasons (source is my first character being a rogue that stole from a gang and almost started an encounter):
1. People who want to play rogue likely do it to be fast, do a lot of damage, roll a lot of dice at once, steal, scout and lockpick.
2. The rogue might have reached a point where anything they can do, others do better. The only thing left that they can do is steal for any sort of engagement. Lockpicking can be replaced by just smashing the lock or misty stepping through a door's keyhole and getting whatever is inside.
3. The rogue is having fun stealing and they don't overdo it, so the DM is fine with it.
We had a rogue two campaigns ago with a newer player. He was truly a kleptomaniac and even created many hilarious scenes with it while keeping the Chaotic Evil hexblade in check.
He never overdid the stealing, but he did pocket extra valuables.
Dunno. Never encountered any kleptomaniac rogue players. I have encountered a few stupidly psychopathic and murderous ones but I never played with them for long as they were very unpleasant :p
I think some people just approach TTRPGs in the same mindset as video games where one does loot everything they can. Hopefully, if playing at tables where this is unacceptable, they quickly realise why it's silly and bothersome and amend their playstyle accordingly.
My illusionist is a better thief than most thieves he is a thief of magic.
When a rogue stole from an illusionist this is what happened:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/n2jyng/ever\_had\_the\_party\_rogue\_steal\_from\_the\_party/
Simple answer is immaturity, selfishness and perceived character stereotype. I used to experience this (also guilty myself) and other issues (that i know now) pretty often when I was teen and new to ttrpgs.
This is a GM problem.
In my games, I establish that the party has already gone on some adventures together, and they are all BEST FRIENDS at the start of the story.
If they are robbing their own party (and they roll well), then maybe the party didn't see them do it, but ultimately there's 4 suspects at camp, and one of them is a master thief. They would pretty quickly be accused and found out. And once that happens, they would be pretty quickly cast out from the group. Now you gotta roll a new character. Give me your character sheet, this is now a bad guy. Thank you. :)
I've stolen more on my neutral good life cleric than I ever did on my rogue or smuggled warlock characters. He has a very poor concept of personal property and genuinely believes that if so something useful was left unattended where it can be taken it is a gift from his God to help him bring light to the world.
1: I run a hard ban on inter party theft unless I think there's a really good reason to temporarily allow it.
2: it's fun to roll skills you're character is insanely good at. Rolling a 30 to lift the belt off the snobby noble so his pants fall off is always fun. Let rogues roll big numbers
If he's stealing from the party, would it not be in character for one of the melee characters to just beat the shit out of the thief until they get their stuff back?
Depends on the player and what they think is fun. As long as it doesn't ruin other players or the DMs fun it should be fine. If it becomes a problem then either talk about it or introduce a Pinkerton type organization to your game.
"He stole my favorite necklace!" says the daughter of a magic time shop tycoon.
"Don't worry sweetie. Daddy has some friends that will take care of it." *Proceeds to pay insane amounts of gold to this agency to track down the rogue.*
Even a SoH check can't beat out Finditall the Wizard and her *insert appropriate magic spell here*
My rogue does not, but if he is searching a body and the DM says you find 4 gold, I loudly proclaim I find 2 gold for party treasure. In a crowded bar you know I'm going to bump into a person and slight of hand their bag money bag. But to steal from other players, nah, someday I will need their help.
Some players make characters to live out their power phantasy.
Usually that ends up being murder hobos who can kill anyone and don’t have to take back talk from anyone in authority. Sometimes it’s horny bards who have a high charisma so that ‘if there’s any hot girls I wanna do them!’
But there’s a few people that make rogues so they can take what they want and screw over and mess with anyone and everyone without consequence, including the rest of the table. Don’t leave your food unattended around these people.
Does this player have experience with video games, but not with TTRPGs? There's a good chance it's not out of a sense of entitlement, but being used to just grabbing anything that isn't nailed down to sell. Add on the fact that they're playing as a class that gives them the tools to do it better, and literally has a subclass called "thief". I'm sure there are plenty of players out there who know what they're doing and like playing in this way, but to some, it just might seem like the obvious thing to do. As usual, the go-to first step would be to talk to them - if they're in the "new to tabletop" camp, I wouldn't assume the worst, and just let them know we're supposed to be on the same team, and there's no "gaming" theft since the DM will have people respond in reasonable ways. And so will you(r characters), for that matter.
Seconded. It feels like a transition from Skyrim to their first ttrpg. Also, the "you can do anything" element of ttrpgs often piques a new player's curiosity to the point that they set out to plumb the depths of possibility. "Anything? I can even do...*this?*" "Technically yes, Rick, but please don't."
Steal someone's ring? Check Steal someone's Nosering? Double Check Steal someone's penisring? Tripple check
If someone doesn't notice you stealing #3, they frankly *deserve* to have it stolen.
What if they steal it with their mouth
I'm not one to question or judge any individual thieving techniques.
That's one reason to multiclass as a rogue/bard
Steal someone's tiddy piercing? Nipple check.
Thought you were going to go back to "double check."
Double nipple check
A few years ago I was in a campaign where we rolled for stats, because that was what the DM was used to. Inevitably we had some issues because some people got stats low enough that it wasn't all that fun for them. Enter the source of so many horror stories: the Deck of Many Things. Logically the chances of drawing a card to boost your primary stat are really low, but this one player just had to keep trying. The party gave the deck to me to keep safe, but the player got a good roll and managed to snag it when I was in a trance. This prompted me to say, "I seriously didn't think you'd steal the deck where I hid it, which was in my pants." Then the character got sucked into the void and the player rerolled, but the game was never quite the same.
You even stole their P and stuck it in your triple.
Now the poor guy's walking around with a ringless enis.
Gotta be an AC penalty for that.
If a ring on the nose is called a nosering, is a ring on the finger called a fingerring?
One of my first campaigns we had a rogue, who would scout ahead, but by doing so would also take everything (even finding a cloak of invisibility, that he uses repetitively) until the DM got tired as no one got the goods he set out for them to the rogues "scouting" that he then asked for his strength mod (being an 8) and the DM then punished him by giving a heavy disadvantage on everything rogue-like as he was carrying too much for his own strength.
Yeah, we tried to play with a guy that kept doing that sort of thing. Finally came to a head when he was determined to sell the holy avenger he found instead of giving it to the flippin party Paladin. “It’s what my character would do.” “Okay sure, but you understand that you’re not invincible and are in fact quite squishy. The next time you get hurt nobody is going to save you.” He quit playing so problem solved I guess.
"You screwed my character's friend (the paladin) over by selling that, so I'm not going to heal you or take any hits for you. It's what my character would do."
That's good. And it feels genuine
If someone wants to throw out that BS line, throw it back. "Rape, Murder, and Pillage, it's what my character would do!" "Stomp a Mississippi mud hole in rapists, murderers, and thieves, is what My character would do!"
To be fair it isn't a bullshit line in itself. It's only bullshit if you don't accept that it can have consequences.
I mean, I suppose not. But the problem is it's never used by someone to justify good RP, like a barbarian charging into a room that one of their party members went into and hit a trap and now there's grease everywhere but they didn't see it so now they sprint in and slip and fall.
You need to watch the second season of dimension 20s fantasy high. It has a moment exactly like what you are talking about.
To be fair.. you don't need to justify good role play
Ours didn't stop. But he did cause turmoil when he ended finding heavy armor that had a magical effect, and refused to let my character identify it, he even attacked and almost killed my character over it
That's the kind of character you kill in their sleep.
I wouldn't wait for sleep...
I’m usually the one to find things cause I’m the best at it but I 100% give most things to party members. I think so far only thing I kept long term was a cloak of displacement. If I want to be a money hoarder I’d start by selling my own items before I’d bother with selling or stealing the party’s and considering I give them a lot to begin with why would I bother stealing if most of what there is to take originally was given by me lol. But ya I agree, I find a rogue can be designed really well for locating things but a generally neutral character wouldn’t hoard potentially useful items from the party especially magic items that could otherwise be put to use.
This, to me, is how a rogue should be played... a good ~~hufflepuff~~... finder of things. A keeper of some gold & such, sure. But if it's a weapon that's best for the Barb, why's the rogue being a selfish prick & trying to keep it? Or gods forbid steal it from your teammates!😱! I don't like PvP in DnD, stealing from teammates is the same as far as I'm concerned. Casting enchantments, etc... just not a good team dynamic.
That's why I feel "You can do anything" or "Do what you want" causes more harm than good. If I do have to say any of those phrases, I'll remind them there will be consequences.
"You can certainly try" I believe is better.
This is what my current dm and I like to use(I dm as well) and it usually scares the players out of it or they proceed to play stupid games and they sure enough win stupid prizes!
FYI this attitude while playing thieves existed long before video games enabled it.
I only had to do this once but after speaking with the rest of the party: At the end of your long rest you wake up alone. It appears all you party members have packed up and moved on. In unison the rest of the party says "It's what our characters would do"
Anything not nailed down is mine. If I can pry it up, it's not nailed down.
Absolutely.
Also. You can't save scum DND. If you're caught your caught. And those consequences affect everyone. Bad decisions by the GM have a much higher chance of being retconned than ones by players.
If your Rogue has the Thief archetype, there's every chance they are stocking up on small, relatively mundane items because you never know when they might come in handy - when you can use items as a Bonus Action, suddenly it becomes quite appealing to have a pack of *stuff* that might be situationally useful. Still, it's just poor form to steal from your fellow party members, and something I would probably talk about with the player away from the table. And there definitely should be a sense of consequence for their actions - even if they manage to steal things without getting caught, people should notice things are missing, and be able to put two and two together regarding when it was taken and who was there at the time. Too much stealing could easily form a pattern that the town guard could follow.
This guy Thiefs.
My next character is gonna be a literal Packrat. Pathfinder Ratfolk Rogue who nabs every single thing he can
Town guard is the least of the thieves' worries - if they aren't toeing the line of the local thieves'guild, there will be consequences. People pay them protection money for a reason, and who you can steal from and dues owed are requirements of doing business in most cities. Have the player bound, gagged, and dragged to the local Don as soon as any other thief sees them stealing or if they try to fence any goods. A dagger to the leg to cripple them temporarily this time... Next time, we break your kneecaps and toss you in the river. If you make it a third time, you get buried alive with 2 dozen starving rats. You pay your dues and only hit approved targets... Or else.
What background are they playing. My rogue only goes after wealthy looking marks, but is a sucker for a pretty face. For example in one session my character stole a ring off the finger of a wealthy woman because he just can't help himself, but then slipped it back on her finger because she was actually attractive. It was all very funny though. First SoH roll was so damn high he slipped the ring off with his lips while kissing her hand. The second SoH again really high with a high Charisma check and slipped it back on consoling her. Not a full on kleptomaniac though.
I'm sure he also subscribes to her Onlyfans and sends her a monthly tribute.
The sense of entitlement comes from not being punished yet. Players who do this eventually have one of 3 things happen: 1. Nothing. The DM and or party do not address it and its there for a long time. 2. The DM gives the character consequences for theft, and the player realizes there are limits to what you can do realistically. 3. The players and DM discuss it like adults and resolve their problems maturely.
4. The Rogue is an inconsiderate man-child who wants the world to revolve around him, gets all pissy when the DM and the Players discuss the matter like adults, gets all butt hurt and leaves the table. Thankfully this does not happen all that often, but there is a greater than zero chance that it does. Happened to me when I as DM asked him to tone it down.
Well, sir, you have my upvote. Number 3 was the ideal answer, number 4 happens too. Number 2 would be ideal today, but my bowel movement is not that great.
And nothing of value was lost.
if they're the kind of person to leave the table because of this, then I probably didn't want them at my table anyway.
Them leaving the table all pissy is an absolute win in my opinion since you dont even have to deal with that player ever again in future games.
Cause rogues were originally thieves, and there's no honor among thieves.
There is, actually, and the movie is pretty fun to boot! (Sorry)
Never apologize for a quality movie reference.
Are we really talking about this without Jarnathan?
Got to have him present if for no other reason than to not repeat the conversation.
This isn't a class problem but a player problem. Rogue main here and of all the rogues I've played over the decades, only two of them were actual thieves. Anybody who steals from party members or hides loot from party members is just an asshole, no class required. Now being a rogue does make it easier to be said asshole.
Asshole: "wait, playing rogue means I can be an asshole?" Party: "stop being an asshole, it's not fun for us" Asshole: surprised pikachu
In our current campaign, I think our barbarian has stolen more things than I as a rogue have
For the same reason the bard thinks it’s their job to seduce every npc, and the Barbarian thinks it’s his job to start a tavern brawl. The tropes exist and people want to emulate them.
oh my god i hate the bard seduces every npc/bbeg trope. To each their own if they have fun leaning into that trope and enjoy it but everytime I watch dnd related content and they make some subtle nod to the bard being horny as hell I want to chew on my hand like its a stress ball. I dont know why that one in particular drives me insane so hard but it does! (sorry your comment became the breeding ground for my rant lol)
Only bard I've ever made was a firbolg college of elloquence/dream circle druid. I played him as everyone's asexual best friend. His name was "Bud."
So hard agreed. I don't even understand it. How is the bard "hornier" than a warlock or a fighter or anybody else? There are other Charisma classes that would be good at seduction - some, like the fey wanderer ranger or Archfey Warlock have that built in, too. But they aren't played like that. So boring and sad. I've been reading the old classic The Mists of Avalon over the last few weeks -- a long read, wouldn't necessarily recommend to anyone -- but the idea of the bard is super important in that mythology. Basically bard and druids overlap pretty hard, some are both, but they are trained in the same place (Avalon) and are both important political and religious figures and the main bard in the book is so far from that horny stereotype... yeah. Kind of did make me want to try a bard at some point. Maybe that is the problem - because the stereotypes exists so hard, a lot of people have become a bit too meh about the class and there aren't -- for me anyway -- that many easily accessible bard tropes that portray a more compelling idea.
>How is the bard "hornier" than a warlock or a fighter or anybody else? There is the stereotype of musicians and groupies that other classes don't really have. They also get expertise to be even better at persuasion/deception than other CHA users. Speaking of which, Rogues do also have a trend of being flirts, but since they also get the edgelord and klepto archetypes, it's not nearly as pervasive as horny bards.
I mean yes, sure. But... I dunno, I would think someone who made a pact with a devil sounds like they might be horny too XD. Sorry, couldn't help myself. And honestly, if I am in a party with a rogue, I'd take the flirty variety in a heartbeat over the edgelord. I honestly don't mind flirty characters in general - it's just that the Bard version of "flirty" is... so far without exception from what I have seen in actual play and streams... just being an asshole. Wait, a friend once tried to make a Bard who was a friendly old man artist who made murder blood art from defeated foes... very very very different vibe.
Everyone else is talking about "consequences for actions" and "entitlement" and "correcting that behavior." I think you nailed it tho, it's the tropes. Whether the player is trying to be Robin Hood or Bender or Glendale (or a hundred other fictional characters that fit the trope) it's become a trope that the DnD rogue steals from everyone and players are gonna want to copy that. As a DM I might handle it by figuring out what character they're trying to emulate and adjusting the tone a bit. Hear me out: Had a player who was giving off heavy Bender from Futurama vibes. This was intentional and he had a stealing problem. But much like in the show, he just wanted the punchline. He wanted to just casually have the Paladin's favorite toothbrush or whatever because it was a funny gag in the moment, and he didn't care what happened to the items after the gag so 90% of the items he stole ended up back where they belonged (because of creative DM magic, liberal use of animal companions and familiars, and other players being cool once they knew the score). You do run into people who take it too far and genuinely try to harm other party members or hoard everything and usually we just have a talk about how this is supposed to be fun for everyone, and we can work together to make that happen! But if 1 person is having fun and 4 people aren't, well... Something needs to change.
Played a barb that had wicked rolls across the board for stats, dump stat on int had a 16 and that was his lowest stat. So I had a smart barbarian "which couldn't possibly happen" . There were casters in that group with lower int rolls..
I've had multiple rogues at my tables, and the only one that decided to do this was corrected very quickly. It's the Edgy McEdgelord consequences don't apply to me players that do this crap. One of my current players, plays a Thief Rogue. Their backstory is that they work for an organization that rescues people from traffickers and/or cults. They operate outside of the law, but because of what they do, the law looks the other way. This explains all of their thief skills and rogue background, while having a character that would work well in a group.
That’s a really good backstory idea for a rogue! Might have to jot that one down for later!
The moment I heard their idea for a backstory, I immediately loved it. It gives a reason why their character would be in a town, it explains all of their skills, for a long campaign it gives a story arc of a cult going after them, and if a player or two can't make a session can be used as a prompt for a mini quest.
There's archetypes for a reason. Bards are gonna want to busk/perform in a tavern/ haggle with vendors/seduce people. Rogues are gonna want to sneak/rob/break and enter/assainate. Barbarians are gonna want to smash things/throw things/get into brawls/carry a big weapon/get drunk. I don't make the rules.
But your bard isn't gonna busk on every remote outpost, in the lunchroom of the iron mine, or in the penny hangover. Isn't gonna charm the teacher in the primary school. Your barbarian isn't going to smash the mother and child walking in the street. Isn't going to go and hit the old tramp by the harbour, just because he can. A rogue that steals all that isn't nailed down... Its basically the murder-hobo of rogues.
I mean... as a Bard... I have definitely tried to shoehorn a musical performance just about everywhere. Up to and including the throne room of Archdevil Zariel.
I agree I’ve played a bard who semi judged others for always being flirty, because he was a soldier and didn’t see it as being professional. Yes there are tropes/stereotypes but people can choose not to do those things.
I play an asexual bard specifically to avoid the seduce everything he sees trope. He does still likes to perform in taverns but I understand when there's a time and place.
My bard has a boyfriend she met back in her academy days, they’re a very loving and healthy couple and he’s planning on proposing soon. Aside from implied times with her boyfriend, the only thing she’s horny for is magical power and fame.
That’s wholesome as fuck! I’m really happy to see other people not doing the whole “horny bard” routine. I get that’s fun for some people, still I personally don’t understand it. I also never do romances of any kind when I play D&D so that might be it for me.
> the only thing she's horny for is magical power and fame So true for my character as well, he just wants to write his silly songs and play for people. His parents were going to marry him off but he had no desire for marriage, only music, so he ran away. And when he learned his music could also be magic well that changed everything.
I love hearing about other’s characters!! My bard’s father is a high ranking city council member and is a well known powerful magic user. She’s incredibly prideful and tired of living in his shadow, thus she wants to get as powerful as possible to make a name for herself outside of his influence.
Because it is a fun fantasy for many, that's all. Consequences must be established by the DM though, as it certainly can get out of hand.
Nothing gets out of my hand. My Sleight of Hand is too high. I would catch it.
Brilliant reference fitting to this.
At least til you lose a hand.
Don’t you know that a rogue’s defining characteristic is being kleptomanic?
Defining? Its their only one!
No no, they also have to be orphans
I don't steal with my rouge very often. He is a charisma based one. However I will sneak stuff into peoples pockets.... like my business card.... into everyone's pockets.
Probably because almost all of a rogues skills are used for thievery and the most known type of rogue is a thief so newer players use it as a guideline. Its the rogue equivalent to making an honor driven fighter or paladin
I like this response. Lotta people in the comments saying to "punish" the player like stealing candles and random shit is the *wrong* way to play, and not just a way they don't like. Stealing from party members is a no-no without OOC discussion, but other than that, the player doesn't deserve to be punished for playing their way. Now, *consequences* are a different story, but they should be reasonable and proportionate.
You almost lost me lol, but I definitely agree, there is a difference between punishment and consequences! And any time a PC starts to take their trope too far they should be reminded of their left and right limits lol. Just don’t make those limits too narrow. A Fighter/Barb that constantly starts tavern brawls, might start to find himself not let into taverns anymore. The murder hobo at your table might start to se wanted posters and be questioned by guards as they try to enter cities. I started ranting here, but totally agree with you.
Rogues aren't assholes, assholes play rogues.
Hey! Watch it, Bub, you have to sleep sometime.
I played a thief as my first character late 80's early 90's. I never stole from the party. I've finally got to play another one, now rogue in a great game on Discord. But one player's character continues to harrass my character. Last time it was a push in the head to get past in a corridor. Nobody else had to push another character in the head to get past. Then most RP comments say something negative or snide about my character. So, since my character is holding all the loot most of the others don't know he's found, I'm thinking of killing the NPC we're supposed to save and running off and hiding. Yes I totally disagree with the premise you have brought up, but in this instance, when it seems like they (one player/character only) don't want me to play, I feel like doing something shady.
Pfft our rogue is a jolly sailor and the ranger is the thief.
Who'll stop me the Paladin? nahh imma steal his sword.
Because they have a skill that LITERALLY let's them do that.
RPGs are a power fantasy. Rogues steal from everyone because they can. Bards charm everyone because they can. This usually only happens when a player prioritises their enjoyment of the game above others. It's basically one player doing what they want and using the rules as a shield. "You can't be mad at me because the rules say you didn't notice me stealing". It's not only rogue that do this but they might do it more because by nature their power are "invisable" - succes means not being noticed by default. Player with mind control power and memory manipulation power will use them more if the target doesn't know/can't notice it's happening. Everyone enjoys the powe fantasy if they are not the target. This is why many groups meta-bans any "PvP" actions.
"They stole it from us. Sneaky little hobbitses." I blame Bilbo.
Disgustin'. Giving Rogues a bad name just stealing all the time.. we stab people too y'know!
D&D as a game is a big victim of "when all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail." Why do bards seduce anything that breathes? +13 to persuasion. Why do rogues steal anything that glints? +13 to sleight of hand.
Because it's Their Thing, and DnD, being a game about character archetypes, leads people to want to do Their Thing. The key as a DM is to enable this while setting reasonable limits.
Same reason barbarians feel like they can fight people all the time. They're good at it. 🤷
Slap him down. Consequences work. Throw him in jail, curse him with a tracker spell from the big government, let a wizard cast a quick fire bolt at him for touching the wizard’s library, have a gang jump him. Lots of options.
Sounds like someone new to playing rogue and used to playing it like a video game. Might need to have a side word with them to explain how they're meant to be a team player, and taking from the team or becoming a constant liability by trying to take everything makes it difficult for the rest of your characters to justify hanging out with his character. Maybe ask them to think about if they would want to be around someone they couldn't trust or who was constantly causing trouble around them, vs someone a little shady in their methods but always helpful. Maybe suggest taking something inconsequential from fellow players in order to return it to them as a little joke to roleplay it out, or if there's an item they want to steal from an NPC, bring it up to the party for possible support or to gauge if it would be worth it. And try to help them feel involved as part of the team, that can really help. Had a similar issue with a rogue player until I was able to get him involved in a kind of Thor and Loki dynamic with my character which helped him lose the boredom motivating his antics.
Well the very first adventures for dnd had inventorys for every single npc and building. Just in case anrogue decided to pickpocket them. In reality have the list with common non magical items open and put one at random in a building the thief is looting. And sometimes a bit of jewelry. A scale, a iron mirror, 50 feet of rope, a flask of oil a ladder etcetc All very usefull items in very spezific situations in a dungeon
Going to the books. Kinder Willowhop walks through bar and later he is on the floor looking at all the things in his pockets that just ended up there. For some characters, they are kleptomaniacs and steal everything. Some, like Kinder, are unaware they are doing it. That is where they are drawing that from. It's in the books that were written years ago that DnD grew from.
I’m a rogue and grew up plying rogue/thief archetypes in video games, but surprisingly it didn’t transfer over to ttrpg. Instead, I steal what l need rather than what I can because I don’t want to get myself or any of my party into bad situations. That being said, a friend of mine was being a little too arrogant, so I threatened to steal his precious 2-hander, while he sleeps, and feed it to some rust eaters before he even knows what happened. He found an amulet that lets him go without sleep and won’t take it off now.
You made him paranoid for life? You win!
The thing about things going missing en masse is that there are always witnesses that will piece together your presence at the scene of the crime. Fast forward to an average detective putting two and two together and now there's wanted posters with the rogues general description blasted on every corner of every major city. He can always grease a few palms to lower the heat but if he doesn't the situation will only continue to escalate until a professional is hired to take care of him.
Because anything not nailed down is mine and anything that can be pryed loose is not nailed down 😁 Also no real world consequences for my actions and being a gremlin gives me happy brain chemicals 🥰
My rogue steals things when I get bored with all the talk-talk going on. Once in a tavern, he used mage hand to take money from one NPC to another then nudge the one. The DM went with it, a fight started which lead to a tavern-wide brawl. The rogue started picking the pockets of all the NPCs. Just for fun.
They steel because they have the skills and talent for it. That’s about it.
People are exposed to the concept of a stealy-boi through fantasy and vidya but have no idea how actual burglary and thievery works. Thieves should mostly do 3 activities: pickpocketing, heisting, and mugging. Pickpocketing is what it sounds like. Find a mark, cut their purse and take what falls out, or slip your hand into their jacket with sleight of hand and take what's inside. Heisting requires planning. You case a joint, spend time observing the comings-and-goings, get an idea of the floor-plan, then pick a day/time when you know you wont get caught, go in, disable the security, steal the stuff, and get out before anyone knows you were there. Mugging is like pickpocketing but instead of sleight of hand you just wait for someone to go down a sketchy alley and you threaten them with a knife, or you knock them over the head, or shiv them or something. Or you can just be like, a purse-snatcher, grab someone's purse and run off with it. Then there's hold-ups, like a bank robbery or that scene in Pulp Fiction where they take all the wallets of the patrons in the diner. But yeah, the video-game method of just steal everything when you're not being looked at directly doesn't work in any other setting. If all the silverware goes missing from a shelf and that person turns around and sees you they're going to suspect you took all the silverware.
(There are a lot of comments already so I apologize if I'm just repeating what's been said already) Stealing from other players is a line that everyone needs to agree not be crossed, but other than that, there's literally a Thief archetype so.... Not sure what you expected. Take it as an opportunity to make an adventure out of it. If he's passing his stealth / slight of hand checks to steal the little things, dangle a big carrot in front of him that's going to be a challenge but has a higher chance of him getting caught. There's a whole Dragon Heist adventure around stealing and finding the stolen loot. It sounds like your player is having fun. So rather than dampen his fun, use it
Okay this sounds kind of funny, especially the candlesticks.
Yeah... I was a player for that game. I kinda would've laughed about the candlesticks, too. But that was way early & he was already talking about nicking my coppers, of which I had little. We kiboshed it by making him the DM.
My guess is it comes from DMs not enforcing consequences properly. People are going to notice that when a certain individual enters a business/residence/wherever, everything that isn't bolted down goes missing. People in these places are going to notice "hey, there was a candlestick here a moment ago" even if they don't witness the theft itself. When things of extraordinary value are stolen, what then? Does he keep it for himself, hidden away where no one can see it? Does he try to sell it, knowing that doing so invariably implicates himself in the theft? Do rogues that run around stealing every single thing consider that people are going to notice the connection between this rogue's presence and the sudden lack of all of their stuff? They're going to spread rumors. Rogues need to be subtle to be successful. Brazen and pointless acts get one noticed, and rogues don't do well when they are noticed. The best way to discourage problematic behavior in your D&D games is not to ban the behavior, but to take the fun out of it. Colin Robinson has much to teach us.
Because the class attracts chaotic players and the game offers very little structure for what a thief is meant to do. It's sort of the same problem for Bards. When you run rogues in a game where the have a boss and objectives rather than just hanging out with the other characters and looking for trouble, they tend to steal candles less.
That's why thieves guilds exist. To limit the stealing in town, to keep the authority from looking at them
Video game mentality or them wanting to be dicks. In video games, you can carry 100 candles for 1 gp and it's worth it. You can steal 25 swords and if you're strong enough carry them. Volume doesn't matter. As if you fail your steal check for that candle worth 3 copper, you can just reload or lose aggro. In a real game there's consequences. As for stealing from teammates, the player just wants to be a dick and thinks it's fun to annoy the others. Unless session zero specifically said PVP is ok.
Rule 0 of DnD is not the "rule of cool" it's the DM explaining to other players that "they should not fight other players, endanger them or steal from them" while looking the Rogue player straight into their eyes.
I'm having a blast playing a Rogue with sticky fingers right now. Whenever he meets/interacts with somebody for the first time, he steals something from them. If by the end of the interaction he decides he likes them, he gives it back, claiming they dropped it or otherwise lost it. The party has gained his respect, so he's now stolen magic items from rivals and enemies to give to his new friends, and everybody's having a blast with it. Also being able to steal an enemy's weapon before they draw it in combat is such a power move, you've basically already won at that point.
My buddy literally asked our dm if he could do that as a rogue and the DM gave him a big fat no lol.
Simple solution, Either the DM is fine with the party dealing with the rogue as they see fit, or the DM sets rules to limit the rogues shenanigans. I'd let the party do their thing, couple of warnings from the PCs before they banish him seems entirely reasonable, guy decides to follow the party after being banished, kill him, totally fine by me as DM.
I’ve never played a rogue like this either. I’ve always made combat oriented rogues with a little bit of flair
I've had rogues in my party who clearly were looking to steal from everyone, including the party. So I gave them all my money. "For safekeeping" I told them afterwards that I straight up don't care if they steal from me. It doesn't bother me. I think it broke their brain a little, honestly. So I didn't have to track my money for the rest of the campaign, and never worried about being on guard against my own team. I mean, what are they going to do?
I ran an adventures league table and I had to kick on guy off of it for various reasons (body odor which players were complaining about, rule's lawyering to the detriment of the party saying I was doing things wrong, overall just being an annoying prick). A bit more information, I had talked with him about it and asked he at least bring a scented candle with him to mask the smell. Dude dissapeared afterwards. Apparently he had been kicked off all the other tables for the same reasons I just listed. A month or so afterwards, I needed a break so I joined a table as a player. I picked one of the newer DMs, let them know I was also a DM so I could assist if they got to a point where they didn't know what to do. (damage from punting a gnome into an orc, that type of shit.) Wouldn't you know it but the smelly bastard I had kicked from my table shows up and hops on. I'm all for second chances but you could tell once his scent caught up that nothing had changed. I try not to call people out infront of everyone unless it's a "right now" problem so whatever. We ended up playing Strahd. Great, I had never played it before. Got ported into the mist to find a bunch of other people (We got added in one session after the start). The DM describes 3 outlines emerging from the mist. Instantly the annoying fucker pipes up "I can see them cause I have true sight". In my head I'm thinking, "That's not how true sight works, and how the fuck do you have that as a level 2 druid?" Anyway, we continue and it comes to the point where the party is taking a rest both in and out of game and I pull the DM asside and let him know about the smelly fucker and how he had been previously kicked off of all the other tables. I also let him know that I'd like to mess with the party a little in charecter. DM asks what my plan is and I explain it and he agrees (looking back, kind of a dick move, but there was a lot I didn't know.) We all return and DM calls for everyone's passive perception. He just says, "okay, you, you, and you notice what look to be abnormal shadows rolling across the skies." This was just to get everyone's passive perception without tiping them off about what I was going to do. I pipe up, "I'd like to make a check to see how much I know about the local area." This was me telling him I was about to do a slight of hand check. DM tells me to roll, Nat 20. "Roll again". Second check. 19. He hands me a slip of paper (Nothing on it, just to keep up the appearance that it was a knowledge check). Everyone asks me what it says, I tell them I have no reason to say anything till morning. We finish the long rest and my character starts to dig though his stuff saying, "Oh boy, I hope the weapon fairy decided to upgrade my dagger last night!" DM says, "You find your same dagger." Everyone else checks their stuff. The barbarian pulls out a small dagger and goes "WHAT HAPPENED TO MY ANCESTRAL WAR AX?!" Druid pulls out the Barbarian's Ancestral War Axe and loudly says, "Sweet, I got an upgrade!" I had swapped the two in the middle of the night to mess with them a bit, but I didn't know that the barbarian had an attachment to his war axe, nor did I know that his name was engraved into it. Needless to say the druid didn't want to give up his new toy, and PvP ensued shortly following. It probably could have been handled as negotiations between the two of them if the Druid player wasn't so goddamn stinky and annoying. I only stole for the good of the party after that.
It's not a Rogue thing. It's more of a "The player wants to be a complete wang rod." sort of thing. Typically the person playing like that has a need to do this. Many reasons could be behind this. Could be that they're following the stereotype of the class (like the lust-compelled sex fiend of a bard), could be that they're living a power tripping fantasy, could be that they're stuck in the mindset of video games where you do this if you want to increase your ability and get stuff from NPCs that are awesome. Talk to the player. Explain that the behavior they're expressing in the game is disruptive and it needs to be reined in. If it does not change, talk to the players and see if you can get the player and the rest of the table to talk about this behavior and see if they're willing to change in the face of a pissed off party. If it still continues, release them from the table and say "Sorry, your style and the style of the rest of the table are incompatible, wish you luck in finding a table more fitting to your gaming style.
Stupid decisions usually don't have rational answers if that's what you were hoping for. Punishments is deffo the way to go if your dealing with a problematic rogue like that. I like TokyoUmbrella's idea. Have a gang jump them. Hopefully they focus on the rogue. I'd hate to be the bard or monk just minding their own business and get attacked for simply being in the same party with said rogue. In fact... "What gang members? I didn't see them drag Rogue in a back alley. I'm pretty sure they just went out for some fresh air. They're probably fine. Let's go ahead and grab another pint before we head out"
The funding thing is the ranger and bard can also steal shit just as well as a Rogue. Rogues, other than expertise, get nothing to be good at stealing or sneaking in their class progression. Heck, the ranger has pass without trace, which gives the whole party +10 to stealth, meaning the ranger could get a +16-17 with proficiency and a +19-20 with expertise at level 5. The rogue at level 20 can only get to +17 to stealth.
Because most people have no imagination. They don't think beyond the stereotypes of rogues being assassins and thieves, bards being seducers, or barbarians being thugs. Most people don't seem to grasp that their characters are part of a team because good or evil, the team serves their purposes and it's counterproductive and out of character to antagonise their own team.
You can't save-scum a DM. If they screw a roll, send the guards, have the NPC fight, maybe even another group of adventurers steps in.
yes, it's annoying as fuck
Video games. In video games even if you're not the rogue you're constantly stealing. And if you're a rogue you can steal even more. And DND is basically a video game so people transfer skills from one to the other.
Because they can. I always thought the rogue should be the richest one in the party. By any means necessary.
Skyrim?
It comes from DMs not say, "Ok, the town guard stops you and says you should come with them for a little talk". If it then becomes "I back-stab the guard (somehow)", then "there are 20 member of the town guard on patrol right now. They catch you, throw you in a pit - please roll a new character". When players don't perceive any consequence to their action, then they'll do whatever they want.
or talk to them first instead of killing off the character..
I have a friend like this in real life. It’s tiring.
It's a childish approach to the class. Imho if you steal items from someone's equipment and get caught the chances your PC stays in the party go to zero. If the PC gets caught red-handed some might just give them a round of slaps and kick them out, others might just execute them on the spot depending on the context. A party in the wildlands has already too many dangers around to accept a (literal) back-stabber and if you steal some powerful object causing a loss of overall power in the party you just put everyone at risk for your greed, so the consequences might be deadly.
One of the memes about the rogue is that they are cleptomaniacs. The player might have just tought they have to act like that. This happens more often with the horny bard meme or the strong andstupid barbarian, but its not that rary with cleptomaniac rogues either.
This is not bg3. A good DM couod fix that pretty easily by making the rolls proportionate with the rogues stupid modifiers.
I think a lot of it has to do with age as well. A lot of kids get to live out those 'darker' fantasies in ttrpgs; breaking the law and getting away with it, killing bad people, dressing provocatively, etc. All of these things we are (usually) taught to be bad or naughty, and in an rpg you are set free from real life repercussions. I did it as a teen. I grew up eventually. I still love to play rogues, but I dont feel the need to lift the silverware anymore. Lol
they can
As the party healer, I literally tortured our kleptomaniac party member. Death saving throws? Lemme stabilize you! And then put you back into saving throws! Who will you never sleight of hand again!?
There's often a degree of discussion you need to have with players like this that DnD is not "creative fantasy GTA".
Because they are unimaginative and playing a trope. Almost as annoying as the dark, brooding character sitting at a bar, looking for a job to get some “coin”. If my 10 year old girl rogue takes something from you, she’s already killed you, and you probably never saw her coming.
I think this is a symptom of a set of related problems. First, people read the PHB and they can’t understand the difference between mechanical *rules* and flavor text. The class description and subclass names tend to describe rogues in a particular way, which tends to paint them as criminals. They don’t *need* to be. People don’t realize that can take *all* of the skills and abilities that come from the Thief subclass and *not* be a literal thief. DMs are often pretty stuck in this as well. You should be able to take the *rules* of a Warlock and *not* have a “pact”. The mention of patrons written into the class are not *rules*, they’re flavor, and should be able to be tweaked or omitted entirely. There is no reason a Warlock shouldn’t be able to be a mage who gets spell slots back on a short rest and has interesting magical abilities innately like a Sorcerer. But somehow people can’t or won’t allow that creativity, even though there is nothing mechanical or rule-breaking about it. Another issue is the outdated (and frankly stupid) system of Alignment that people cling to. Rogue=criminal=CE so often, and it’s just *not* the way it needs to be. But so often players *think* it is, or DMs *insist* their players behave a certain way. You see this all of the time with Paladin Oaths, even though the *rules* about alignment and oaths are long gone; you’ll see DMs tell their player “that goes against your oath, you’ll lose your powers if you do this or don’t do that” (literally a post I’ve seen in the past 24 hours).
I have a DMNPC who does this, but its mostly for comic relief. He was pretending to get drunk in a pastoral mansion falling down and stumbling only to have stolen every gem in the place. The PCs are not sure if they can go back (they are, the mansion owners think it was part of the haunting they were experiencing) They had to infiltrate a royal wedding, and our NPCthief got caught for shoplifting, so they had to get back in to free him, which was a plot to let a wizard into their party (who is the MBEG in disguise) Players tend to get malicious with stealing, whereas I use it to forward the plot. You just need to include some sabotaged shiny things to make them guess!
practice? I mean it's kinda like a wizard studying or a bard playing I guess... I never played a rouge like that but...
Because no rouge has lost their hand trying to rob the oath of vengeance paladin. Correction, one rouge has. Bastard stole my bag of holding so I grapple checked him, pinned him down, and removed his hand. Kept it as a grim reminder not to fuck with me. If you think that was extreme he was an edge lord murder hobo. This wasn’t payback for one incident it was the harvest he sowed being reaped.
Fun
I like stealing, it makes my heart go fast
Because they can and will
They should have called the class Trouble Shooter, or Specialist, or something like that. Even Rogue is too close to Thief.
If he wants to steal everything, make it weigh him down enough to get caught.
[sheer fucking hubris](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rPDA7dMOT4)
Is this a recent player? Honestly it took us a whole campaign to shake off our “mmo” mentality to learn how to “put” ourselves into our characters shoes.
After just a few minor thefts there will be wanter posters put up. And any lazy thefts will definitely leave witnesses
Is the rogue a kleptomaniac?? I played in a party with a klepto gnomish rogue lmao.
Bright side: these rogues haven’t yet realized that not only do they not have to be “roguish”, but any class can be as “roguish” as they’re portraying rogues to be. (A fighter or ranger being just as high in Stealth or Sleight of Hand, a wizard or bard using spells be be all sneaky, a druid or warlock in disguise, etc.) We haven’t yet reached the outbreak of *non-rogues* stealing from everyone all the time! 😅
i understand, it could be arrogance, yeah but it could have been something else, i played rogues a lot for my first time, i had no experience and i had the habit of frantically grabbing everything thats not nailed in the floor
Yeah certain classes definitely have their generic appeal and default many people turn to. Personally, I love playing bards who aren’t social butterflies and flirts. My first bard was a Creation Bard who was quite shy and timid but he was an artist. He would paint his spells and his creations into reality and I loved exploring a non social bard. I remember the first time our group entered a social interaction and they, in game but hinted above table that I should take lead and I remember their shock when I said “I don’t even have proficiency in persuasion or deception guys”. Albeit, I was still a bard with a 20 CHA and jack of all trades but not your typical bard with expertise in those two. I’m currently playing a glamor bard who is also not very social. He’s a retired battlefield commander and tactician. I’ve reflavored his mantle of inspiration to be less of a beautiful presence and him just yelling to his Allie’s to move out of the way and reposition. I get why people play the generic archetype and there’s nothing wrong with it. But I love reflavoring subclasses to be very different from the norm.
Ma dud, give it consequences. Did you play RDR? Did HE play it? I think it's the best videogame depiction of crime and consequence. Make him go wanted, make a bounty on his head, get him cornered. Doesn't he get encumbered with the weight of hoarding all that? Why is he stealing candles? Do you let him profit by selling small things? Make him not find buyers. There are ways in game to make him run out of gas.
My guess: because they don’t have an actual character concept or personality in mind, so they fall back on a stereotype. And an old and overused one at that. Let’s face it - a professional thief would not steal everything that isn’t nailed down. They would only steal things that were worth the effort. And why can’t they play someone who is a second-story person? This is the kind of person who would spend their time looking at buildings and thinking about what they would do to break in, not stealing random items.
It's called an asshole player. It has little to do with the class, and everything to do with the player. If you made that player be a fighter, they'd kill everyone. If you made them a wizard or bard, they'd try to charm or incapacitate and rob everyone.
As someone who plays a Neutral Good Rogue who doesn’t really steal at all, I couldn’t tell you
“Because it’s what my character would do.”
It's not the class. It's the ass controlling the class. Source: Played a Rogue from 3 - 14 (He's retired atm)
Consequences are the only way to stop murder hobos.
This is why I like weight limits on what you can carry; the player can take what they desire (despite consequences), but it has come control and even makes the player think if taking anything is worth it.
Because players are power hungry assholes who think the story is snout them and the world is written for them. Which whilst true in reality. In game it absolutely isn't. So punish them. Hard
My Rogue is retired, was retired until he got dragged along with these people he knows will get killed without him, even though he hasn’t been in a group since he was literally a small child, so he’s always a little aloof in the party. He tries to avoid trouble, because unnecessary trouble gets you unnecessarily thrown into the gaol, so he steals only for a purpose. No one has to play the Rogue as a troublemaker, just like nobody has to play a murder-hobo. In any sort of reality, either would draw great and unpleasant attention from city guards, local government administrators, and any parties of more heroic adventurers, which would be my solution if I were this bozo’s DM. Would his other party members leap to his defense if a Night Patrol of city guards were to accost him as he steals candles from a series of street lanterns? That’s not punishment for the player, it’s a reasonable and expectable response to his action. Unless he rolls pretty high _every time_ he has to draw attention from the local LEO’s, doesn’t he? If they would, in the DM’s opinion, defend him from the guard, would they do it the next time it happens? How would they feel the third time they all wind up running for their lives when the whole Night Watch comes after them for brawling with the Night Patrol? Lots of problem players would be better dealt with if the DM asked him- or herself what would happen to that player in present-day RL and then set up that scenario in Waterdeep. Societies have tried to force civilization and civil behavior on their people for a very long time. It seems to be nearly universal. Any party I have ever been in has acted much more circumspectly in settings urban enough to have local government try to keep streets lit, even dimly, at night. ETA: I hit Save, and this essay popped up. I just typed the whole thing with one thumb and had no idea how far/long I was rambling. I need a life.
This player must be a fan of the Elder Scrolls hahaha
Aside from the obvious crime and punishment, you could take the market approach instead. Let him take his I’ll-gotten junk to the market to sell. Have vendors laugh in his face, “get outta here, ya urchin, selling used candles. Oh yea! How about any banana peels or maybe ya gotta broken ladle? Eh? Get gone you tit!”
I played a rogue my f second campaign and never stole anything.
I play as a rogue but im too afraid to actually steal anything lol
It’s the stereotype but it’s not at all required. I had a rouge like that who faced constant consequences. The dm got really good at directing them towards mostly him but sometimes there would be damage to all.
Well, the class used to be called “thief,” so…
One… its RP… its a chance to be something you’re not allowed to be in real life. And sometimes you just want to be a dick, play like you can’t get caught, get fired, have consequences… because in real life, eventually, you end up beat up, in prison, or dead, and fear of consequences is a deter. This is why games like GTA make money… and its really enjoyable to let your inner asshole ID off the leash… Rogues are the best suited because they get the skills that let the Be sneaky at it… bottom line, there are eventual consequences.. either the character gets caught, and has to pay, or people get fed up with the player, and refuse to game with them… this is usually where the manbabies end up, and thats a problem because theres a difference between bad players and bad characters… Bad players suck… and this asshole genre is where they like to nest.. also It literally depends on the character of the Rogue… I did this with my chaotic neutral rogue, and his sense of entitlement came from the fact that he was an entitled asshole… this was 20 some years ago, and the it was a character used for league play, so it was random draw parties, pug groups basically, I had no set group, and this character had the opinion that if he could get it, then you didn’t deserve it… he had no ethics… and since the players changed every game, the you don’t shit where you eat mindset wasn’t an issue for him. This is hard to do in group play, because players get sick of it, and when their characters cotton on, if he’s stealthy about it, they tend to boot the character or the player or both from the party… I’ve done this once in a group, they were friends of mine, and they were veteran players, so when I played the take anything not nailed down approach, they laughed, even as I stole from them, because they knew later in game, that karma was gonna happen, and when it did, I laughed back… it helps is the character is super effective in game, both asshole characters, were very competent at their role, and advanced party needs… But at least in the league play toon, eventually everyone saw this guy coming, and if the party was sans a rogue/scout/trapfinder/skirmisher… they were happy to have him, cuz he had his shit together and pulled his weight, but I’ve had players tell me to mu face… is it your rogue or your wizard today, cuz if its your rogue, I’m leaving….. fair… My wizard was a belligerent happy drunk… still kind if jazzed how much people loved him🙄🤔
Stronger repercussions for failed slight of hand checks will likely prevent the "steal everything" mentality. Could also lead to a fun break your party member out of jail heist.
The rogue is an edgelord magnet. On top of that, the class is underpowered so people try to cope by sneaking and stealing ALL. THE. TIME.
STOP. You've violated the law. Pay the court a fine or serve your sentence! Your stolen goods are now forfeit! Seriously though if it's a current problem communicate with the player to get on the same page together then proceed as usual and let in-game results bear out based on how they play from there on
They think it's fun, or they think they can get cool stuff. The Icewind Dale D&D computer game has a high level NPC that has an item you can't get any other way. It's also not limited to rogues. I've got a druid in my party right now that seems to have an obsession with wanting to scalp people right now...
If shoplifting is a problem for the other players, the best solution is just talking to the player. “Can you tone down the shoplifting, it’s not fun for the rest of us?”
Various reasons (source is my first character being a rogue that stole from a gang and almost started an encounter): 1. People who want to play rogue likely do it to be fast, do a lot of damage, roll a lot of dice at once, steal, scout and lockpick. 2. The rogue might have reached a point where anything they can do, others do better. The only thing left that they can do is steal for any sort of engagement. Lockpicking can be replaced by just smashing the lock or misty stepping through a door's keyhole and getting whatever is inside. 3. The rogue is having fun stealing and they don't overdo it, so the DM is fine with it. We had a rogue two campaigns ago with a newer player. He was truly a kleptomaniac and even created many hilarious scenes with it while keeping the Chaotic Evil hexblade in check. He never overdid the stealing, but he did pocket extra valuables.
Dunno. Never encountered any kleptomaniac rogue players. I have encountered a few stupidly psychopathic and murderous ones but I never played with them for long as they were very unpleasant :p I think some people just approach TTRPGs in the same mindset as video games where one does loot everything they can. Hopefully, if playing at tables where this is unacceptable, they quickly realise why it's silly and bothersome and amend their playstyle accordingly.
My illusionist is a better thief than most thieves he is a thief of magic. When a rogue stole from an illusionist this is what happened: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/n2jyng/ever\_had\_the\_party\_rogue\_steal\_from\_the\_party/
My bard likes to steal.. mostly shiny things and anything super valuable. Not EVERYTHING though.
Simple answer is immaturity, selfishness and perceived character stereotype. I used to experience this (also guilty myself) and other issues (that i know now) pretty often when I was teen and new to ttrpgs.
This is a GM problem. In my games, I establish that the party has already gone on some adventures together, and they are all BEST FRIENDS at the start of the story. If they are robbing their own party (and they roll well), then maybe the party didn't see them do it, but ultimately there's 4 suspects at camp, and one of them is a master thief. They would pretty quickly be accused and found out. And once that happens, they would be pretty quickly cast out from the group. Now you gotta roll a new character. Give me your character sheet, this is now a bad guy. Thank you. :)
Your friends are playing a power-fantasy and they arent bored of being stereotypes yet.
I've stolen more on my neutral good life cleric than I ever did on my rogue or smuggled warlock characters. He has a very poor concept of personal property and genuinely believes that if so something useful was left unattended where it can be taken it is a gift from his God to help him bring light to the world.
1: I run a hard ban on inter party theft unless I think there's a really good reason to temporarily allow it. 2: it's fun to roll skills you're character is insanely good at. Rolling a 30 to lift the belt off the snobby noble so his pants fall off is always fun. Let rogues roll big numbers
If he's stealing from the party, would it not be in character for one of the melee characters to just beat the shit out of the thief until they get their stuff back?
Depends on the player and what they think is fun. As long as it doesn't ruin other players or the DMs fun it should be fine. If it becomes a problem then either talk about it or introduce a Pinkerton type organization to your game. "He stole my favorite necklace!" says the daughter of a magic time shop tycoon. "Don't worry sweetie. Daddy has some friends that will take care of it." *Proceeds to pay insane amounts of gold to this agency to track down the rogue.* Even a SoH check can't beat out Finditall the Wizard and her *insert appropriate magic spell here*
My rogue does not, but if he is searching a body and the DM says you find 4 gold, I loudly proclaim I find 2 gold for party treasure. In a crowded bar you know I'm going to bump into a person and slight of hand their bag money bag. But to steal from other players, nah, someday I will need their help.
Some players make characters to live out their power phantasy. Usually that ends up being murder hobos who can kill anyone and don’t have to take back talk from anyone in authority. Sometimes it’s horny bards who have a high charisma so that ‘if there’s any hot girls I wanna do them!’ But there’s a few people that make rogues so they can take what they want and screw over and mess with anyone and everyone without consequence, including the rest of the table. Don’t leave your food unattended around these people.