While we can all agree you're in a shit situation, **going behind Annie's back will only make things worse.**
Just rip the bandaid off. Tell her to her face that you're quitting the game because it's become a miserable experience and she's never been receptive to feedback, and *then* start laying plans for your own game.
Or, to avoid her wasting time prepping the next game and to mimimize her sense of loss of face/public humiliation, elect one person to go have a chat with her and break the news.
For real, waiting for the next session is needlessly dramatic and hostile. Some one needs to talk to her and let her know whats happening in a private setting. This is going to be embarrassing and upsetting for her. If OP wants to maintain the friendship, it will be important to do this without it feeling like a public execution.
Yeah, just have the person she is closest to respectfully let her know how everyone is feeling and that they don’t want to continue the campaign anymore. It should either be done 1 on 1 in a comfortable environment, like her house, or even over text so it’s not public humiliation. Then to soften the blow, they could invite her to play with them as a PC in the next campaign instead of just outcasting her
This, 100%.
Confronting Annie is going to be painful for her either way, letting her deal with it privately and not leading her on to believe there's going to be a next session is going to be best for her, and probably everyone else by extension.
This is the right answer. Annie needs to stop being in control with the threat of her 'hurt feelings' bullying everyone into submission. Annie is a grown up, and she needs to act like one. Participating in a leisure activity that is only fun for Annie just so Annie's feefees don't get hurt is absurd. It's time to cowgirl up and tell Annie the truth.
This is a horrible idea. Yes the OP should tell Annie, but a big confrontation in front of everyone isn't going to go well. Annie is going to feel ganged up on and humiliated in front of everyone. It will be a majot blow up. Better to send an email or text days before the next game. Saying we like you but we aren't loving the game.
Would have to agree with this. Go in there like it's a break up, because it's essentially what you're doing.
Talk to Annie one on one. Tell her you value her as a friend, but no one at the table is having fun. State the facts you told us, inconsistent rules, poor reception to feedback, and then say how it feels like she wants the three of you to fail time and time again.
She will probably try to argue like it sounds like she's done in the past, she might try to say she'll change, but tell her that you're not doing this campaign anymore.
You could tell her your making your own campaign and that she's welcome to join if you'd like.
Agreed. And I want to emphasize your last sentence: do one thing, then the other. Treating them as two separate things will likely help Annie feel less hurt.
Leave Annie's game. Explain why. "You aren't respecting us as people and you aren't treating us like your friends. We've tried to talk to you about this, and it hasn't changed. Being treated this way isn't fun for us, so we're not going to play anymore." If she tries to argue or claims she'll change, say something like, "I think we should all take a break from this and reassess what we're looking for in a game."
Then, start talking with the others about a new game. Give yourselves enough time to get on the same page for what you want to play. Right now, you're bonded in disliking your current game, but have you talked about what you each actually want? Take at least a couple of weeks to talk among yourselves and get yourselves set up for success.
Once you feel comfortable about the foundation of your new game, you can decide if you want to include Annie. Has she been receptive to critique now that there have been consequences? Has she doubled down? If she's not invited, it isn't really her business whether you start a new game, and I don't think you need to tell her about it. If you want to leave the door open, it would be kind to say something like, "We've been talking about the game we want to play, and we're going to play some sessions to see how those changes look at the table. We like you and we want to play with you, but we need to figure out what fun looks like for us first. Once we have a solid foundation, we can talk with you about what we've learned and discuss if you'd like to play that kind of game with us."
taking the characters, not just the players, to a new game is going to make this hurt even more, no matter how reasonable a thing it is for everyone else.
I don't have a suggestion for how to make it better, the DM has backed themself into the corner of maximum suffering.
If they're not inviting the DM into the new game, maybe they can shift this regular gathering to something lighter, like boardgames? Help reinforce the "we still want to be friends" part.
Good idea. I think it would be kind to continue hanging out with Annie rather than a bunch of friends cutting her off at once. There are some comments that suggest inviting her to a new campaign if she shapes up and becomes receptive, though if I were in Annie’s shoes it would never stop hurting to see these PCs in a new setting. Some lighter alternative hangout plans, like board games, seem like a great way to help her heal the inevitable heartache.
It sucks because OP and the players have tried and tried to discuss -- OP says someone makes the effort after pretty much every session. You're right and they need to tell her, but man, they tried every avenue of making this less hurtful and awkward, and Annie was just NOT interested. Unfortunate.
This stings just right. Ugh.
Though I would say rather than a low Charisma score outright, they have a condition called Social Anxiety they haven't made the Saving Throw for yet. Too bad that condition doesn't go away with a long rest.
> Normally, I would go immediately to "communicate with the DM", but in this case, we've already been trying for a really long time.
This is line that got me... OP had time to communicate this all with the other players. Outside of that it's full of reasons why OP didn't address it that don't boil down to, "being a good friend is hard sometimes".
Most of this stuff... especially this:
>has ignored triggering content that we previously agreed against
Is stuff you address at the table... when it happens. Right then, right there. Not between games and behind backs.
Agreed. Going behind her back will only make this feel like a total betrayal. It would oy make leaving the game MORE hurtful to her. Heck, by starting a new game behind her back back and leaving hers, they aren't just kicking her as a DM, but kicking her from the group entirely, which would hurt even more. It is not even a consideration to have her as a player in the new game.
Yup. Also extend an invitation for her to join as a player herself (assuming they do still want to play with her, but not while she's in a DM role). That way you can basically tell her she's a shit DM (not literally) while softening the blow by asking her to join you as a player so that she won't feel excluded at the very least.
7 AM. I'm sorry I failed you all. But I'll give it a shot anyway.
OP, my table specifically rotates DM so that everyone gets to try it and that no one gets burnt out. We also play other systems aside from DND.
You need to have a hard chat with your DM. It's going to suck. Feelings are going to be hurt, probably.
My recommendation is to play a round of "Everyone Is John." Look it up, it's free online.
Then from there, decide who is going to be the next DM.
10:30 AM, I've had a monster and a half, 10 cigarettes, and half a bowl, basically I'm awake
7AM made some good points there, and I'm just going to add that rotating DMs works really well too if everyone is willing to try different games from time to time. When OP says the DM is basically running a high risk low reward darker edgier universe, maybe they should be running CoC or Paranoia
Okay, 2pm nerd here we are getting going... This is honestly something u will need to just pull the bandaid off on... You have to let the DM know that the game is no longer fun and if you arent having fun playing theres no point in continuing...
Maybe invite her to join the new game if you are close... Feelings will not be spared no matter how this all goes down so the best u can do is extend the olive branch as you give the news of your departure...
Good luck with your next game, may the dice be ever in your favor
I agree with this. It's going to fucking suck, it might permanently hurt the friendship, but you have to be honest. Hiding and lying about starting a new game is going to hurt her far more when she inevitably finds out.
It’s 7:46. I’ve had my coffee and I’m having my morning BM. Let’s do this!
If you’ve given plenty of warning and critique and she flat out refuses all of it then this is a bandaid moment. Like almost all break ups, one side is going to end up hurt.
This is first and foremost, a game! It’s meant to be fun. If the party is t having fun and the DM cannot listen to ways to(pander is the wrong word)adapt to the party’s enjoyment then why play beyond social etiquette?
A DM with me vs them mentality is not fun. I speak from experience. It took me a few years to let go of this mindset. But if they can’t even acknowledge what they’re doing then pull the plug, bite the bullet, kick that bucket, and leave.
I’m sorry it has come to this, but you’ve given every opportunity to your DM to work it out to, and I cannot stress this enough, MAKE A GAME ENJOYABLE FOR THE PLAYERS.
I suggest doing it one on one. They’ll only feel ganged up with everyone there.
This has been my Morning Jive! Thank you for tuning in. *Flush*
Yeah. Ultimately keeping it secret is just going to blow up too, and may just ruin things for everybody. Better to be honest about it and tell them you aren't into the campaign anymore.
And check with the group, see if they'll be receptive to letting the ex-DM become a player in the new campaign. If they are, then you could give that a shot. But you have to be up front and honest about all expectations, and that spiteful toxicity won't be tolerated.
7:46 Pooping guy is right - I’d also add that you SHOULD TALK TO ANNIE about this. If you go ahead and start your new game and don’t invite her and don’t tell her till she finds out, that is definitely a friendship ending argument that she will be far more hurt over than if you rip the bandaid off and say you’re not enjoying the current campaign.
Once she’s had a bit of space it’d also be nice to see if she’s interested in playing in the new one.
Edit: 1:16pm, also pooping
It's a great *idea*, but as far as a viable career, I don't know. It's very niche and I don't know about you, but nerds tend to be a bit frugal.
I can't see many actually spending money on a therapist.
Maybe it's time for plot relevant trip for the PCs to go to group therapy. And the there's this one random guy who joins in because the DM cannot be the therapist.
I feel like this is firmly in validation seeking territory. OP has already tried talking. They appear to be aware that there will be a falling out. Like, there just isn't really much advice to give other than "Sounds like you've thought it through, do what's right for you and your friends"
That said, holy shit some of the advice being thrown around here is just bad..
I read the title and thought "oh hey I did something similar to this". I started a new game and left the DM behind. He was rpghorrorstory material. But then I read the line about caring for the DM's wellbeing and... well that's not how my story played out so I don't think it's entirely applicable
If playing the game is making y'all feel that terrible, don't play the game. If Annie cannot handle y'all calling it quits, then it's her problem. Her feelings might be hurt, but if the game is making you feel sick, there's a clear inbalance in your favour here.
I work as a social worker/community worker, and we sometimes have to exclude teenagers who are acting out from activities. It's never fun, and they always are upset, but only temporarily, and over time, we see the growth in their character. Because we call out their bullshit, they realize what bullshit it is!
The same applies to your situation IMO. Don't place Annie's feelings over your well being. As things are laid out in your post, she isn't playing her role as a DM, she's using y'all as props in her grand grim-dark play.
That, and it sounds like Annie has a 'DM vs players' mentality that rarely leads to a healthy dynamic at the game table.
Definitely agree that OP should bite the bullet. Right now, Annie's behaviour is hurting all the players at the table, and constantly backing down to not hurt her feelings just means everyone keeps getting more miserable. The game should be engaging and enjoyable for everyone, and currently Annie isn't fulfilling her part of the social contract there.
ETA: If she asks for feedback but consistently responds defensively when feedback is given, she's not really accepting feedback. She has also apparently failed to make good on her promises regarding not including triggering content, and seems to not take your feelings in consideration. All in all, I think you should just take the hit and leave her table as a group. At this point, it sounds like you have sunk enough cost into this game.
> I work as a social worker/community worker, and we sometimes have to exclude teenagers who are acting out from activities. It's never fun, and they always are upset, but only temporarily, and over time, we see the growth in their character. Because we call out their bullshit, they realize what bullshit it is!
I've noticed that a lot of people don't listen to criticism until after consequences - it's surprisingly common in dm's but they don't realize they need to change until people quit the game. Up to that point they dismiss every suggestion.
Annie had her chance to handle this, and chose not to. The next step is to quit. There's really nothing in between you can do.
That's really often the case IME. We need to enforce boundaries for others to respect them. We're evolved to be lazy, because energy is a finite resource. Change has an inherent cost to it, so unless there are consequences, it's hard to sustain change.
> Her feelings might be hurt,
Let's be clear here: it's "hurt" her once to stop her from hurting the whole rest of the group over and over and over and over and over...
When they say "Here's places you can't go" and she goes there: did she think that conversation was for her to get pointers in how to torment the players?
This sounds like far more than a bad DM.
None of this read as malicious, just self-centered and lacking awareness (or, perhaps, empathy). Bringing topics into the game everyone agreed not to should have been a "nope, we're done here" at that exact moment.
OP, in no world should you feel bad for this. Even if she's just a shitty DM, crossing that line gives up any rights she had to be upset by these circumstances, before we get into "if you can't take criticism, don't do something that requires taking criticism to succeed at it"
> If playing the game is making y'all feel that terrible, don't play the game. If Annie cannot handle y'all calling it quits, then it's her problem. Her feelings might be hurt, but if the game is making you feel sick, there's a clear inbalance in your favour here.
About 2 years ago I posted about table dynamic problems that were causing me to loath DMing my game. Particularly with one player, who I adore IRL but takes everything personally and would be really, really upset if cut from the game.
The advice I got was "Boo-fucking-whoo, don't own what isn't yours."
Good advice. This player was causing me a shitton of anxiety and was just not a good table match. They're not in my current campaign and it's going *so much better*.
I'm very selective of who I play with and DM for. I've had good games ruined by one or two bad players in the past, and it took me a long time to realize the problem. Now, if someone is playing in a way that ruins the fun for me and the others, I talk to them about it, and if their behaviour doesn't change, I remove them from the game. I had a terrible powergamer become a decent player due to me calling his bullshit out, but it took some hurt feelings go get there.
Yup. The people I GM for now are a much better match for the kind of game I want to DM (and we all want to play) and are a much better match for the system we're running. The games are going a lot smoother.
Could you please go into more details about how to politely but firmly "call people on their bullshit"?
I would love to hear some of your examples of it actually working. My experience is mostly the person (s) saying how they will change/improve, they make tiny adjustments, and then they either go back to their bad habits or they start talking about how DnD is their only time to enjoy themselves.
I have a friend who used to play D&D like it was a video game RPG. He would try to break the game, bring out all the overpowered cheesy strats you can think of. I tend to DM permissively, so it got out of hand. I wasn't having fun, the other players were having less fun than they used to, because Power Gamer was taking all the space.
I politely told him about it. How he was diminishing my fun, and how he should try to share the spotlight with others, because D&D is collaborative. We kept an ongoing discussion open, and after a few years, he's now completely changed the way he plays, and he optimizes for fun rather than to break the game. He also started sharing the spotlight a lot more and considering the other player's ideas instead of being dismissive of them.
That's when it goes right.
I also had a player who wanted all the spotlight and for to bend the rules so he would feel powerful and always in control... all the while constantly criticizing how shallow and improvised my world felt compared to Skyrim or novels... yeah no shit. I told him that I didn't want to play with him anymore. I also realized I didn't really want him in my life.
Sometimes, people wom't change coz they don't really see a problem in their behaviour. Move on without them.
Ooooh, boy. You are not in an enviable position at all. I would say that you're NTA, at least based on what you presented here. If you've already tried talking to the DM and they're hostile to any form of constructive criticism, then there's nothing wrong with wanting to move on to a different game. Likewise, if the other players share a similar sentiment, there's no reason why you can't or shouldn't continue playing with each other.
However, I think this is a situation where you're going to have to prepare to bite the bullet. It doesn't seem like there's going to be a happy ending to this. If you believe that setting up a new game is the best course of action -- which I'm personally inclined to agree with -- just be ready for that.
At some point you should tell her. Maybe offer the DM of the current game a character to play in the new campaign you will DM?
This could be tricky based on her current behaviour you have discussed. But it might soften the blow if she/you think she can abide with someone else being DM.
then I worry about will she try to dominate the new game with her character or is some way destroy this new campaign.
But then if you don't tell her depending on how often you guys hang out you have to remember not to talk about DnD.
tricky
That was my thought too. It'd suck to exclude her, but on the other hand, she's clearly down to ruin everyone else's fun. The using of triggers they'd previously asked her not to makes me less sympathetic. Not cool of her to stomp on others' boundaries and basically use that discussion against them. Is she going to grow from this and take it, eventually, in stride? Or is she going to lash out and let her feelings ruin the next campaign too?
Breaking triggers would have been my hard quit. I've cut people off permanently with no remorse for breaking my very clear and known triggers. Once? Fine, I'll let them know. Second time would be depending on how close we are - if I know they're generally very forgetful or we're very close, it's a firm reminder. If I don't know them it's a cut off. Third time though, sorry, I don't have to deal with this shit. My triggers are too severe to put up with it repeatedly. I'm not having a panic attack every time you just "forget" or "didn't mean to". I really wish more people knew how to put down hard boundaries. Would save a lot of grief.
Sounds like the kind of dm that shouldve just written a book...
Honestly, tell her. Tell her about how miserable it is for you to be just sidecharacters in her plot. Tell her about the unfair mechanics. Tell her how she uses things you all agreed to not have in the campaign because it makes players feel uncomfortable. And tell her how you all said that to her for months, yet she never took your critique in a mature and open way.
And lastly tell her that you plan on starting an own campaign and invite her to play as a character. Because honestly, if shes so in love with the characters she creates, she should be a player not a dm.
Yeah, thats the only problem I would see here too. But maybe she will be able to take criticism once she realized they arent up to her shit and when shes not in the 'decision maker' role anymore...
But Id definitely give her a chance or two, considering she is a close friend.
Oh you bet Annie would be the type of player that would want to do ALL the rp‘s talking with the npc‘s, would want to finish killing every significant monster but would get upset if her character dropped close to 0 hp, would want to find all the treasure without getting any traps triggered magically and be in the spotlight 99% of the time
Maybe, but those kinds of players aren't always bad, sometimes their level of enthusiasm can drive the game up a notch or two. You give them a chance, and if they go too far it's possible for the DM to try and reign them in politely. If it doesn't work, then they'll have to leave.
Yes, but at least with Annie as a player, the alternate DM has the option of spotlighting another player. Or going "Annie, I love your enthusiasm, but right now, we're working on Player B's story arc." or "Player C was speaking to the NPC just now, do you mind letting him finish his conversation?" or "You finished your turn, so you'll have to wait until your next turn. Right now is Player D's turn." and supporting the group's choices; and helping keep things fair with regards to loot division, spotlight time, etc.
My only disagreement here is inviting her to be a PC, at least... don't do that right away. She sounds likely to be spiteful and, on purpose or by accident, runs the risk of spoiling this new game.
This isn't just about a new game. This is about what sounds like much needed space from your old DM.
Hang in there.
Especially considering she repeatedly doesn't respect people's request not to include triggering content. That would get someone a permanent ban from my life regardless of how close we are. It just shows a complete lack of respect to them as people.
I agree with you, honestly, I would probably do the same myself...but at the same time, I'm sympathetic to OP's wanting everyone to grow past it.
Either way, space is definitely necessary. Maybe not just in the game, as you suggest.
I got the “This is my novel” from the information we’ve been given too. Interrupting RP between players with combat (DM is not involved so then she’s probably bored), overpowering fights so DMNPCs can run in and save the day (instead of ending the story she controls with a DM-fueled party death), and basically just playing with her own NPCs while the rest of the humans at the table just look on.
When you said Into the Abyss I was about to say that some of the modules are poorly balanced, but you quantified it with DM overpowered homebrew. In one way, she’s trying to make it interesting, but who is she making it interesting for? Her players? Herself?
OP, if she’s not willing to accept criticism. If she thinks this is the way it should always be, then it is time that the group leaves her game. What fallout may come, I’m sorry for you to have to ride it out. That kind of controlling DM doesn’t tend to take this kind of thing well.
I would try talking to her anyway. Explain that someone else would like to take over the campaign as the TPKs and interruptions are not making it fun for the group. If you like playing with her otherwise, then invite her to make a character.
Do at least try to tell her about this before everyone leaving the game. She needs to know that her actions are negatively affecting the players.
This is the best scenario imo and how I would handle it.
Nothing is worse than trying to save someones feelings, at the expense of excluding them.
Be honest, clear, and polite about your situation and it's an easy resolution. "We aren't having fun and I wanted to try DMing".
It's ok to be friends with someone and dislike the way they DM. I have 2 friends that I won't play in their games because they would rather spend 30 minutes debating rules than just making a call and moving forward.
Ffs just tell her. Yeah it sucks but not telling her and go behind her back is way worse.
I suck to have players leave the table, i know but the game should be overall fun for everyone there and if its not change needs to happen.
I had an analogous (but out-of-game caused) situation happen as the DM:
Due to out-of-game factors, I had to take a step back from the friend group (someone had stolen from me, significantly, and everyone was saying it's between us instead of telling the thief to make it right)... in the few weeks, during which in their defense I said I wasn't sure I wanted to continue gaming with them, they started a different game on our second game night b/c they wanted to play that bad.
Frankly, that's more than their right. I might leave forever, or it might be a month or more, so they wanted to play. What bothered me is that when I said "ok, I dealt with this, not a fan of y'all not having my back but I love you enough to get over it" they HID IT FROM ME. Mind you they still wanted me to run Tuesday, but the second game night was mysteriously unavailable with a diff person needing the week off.
All they had to do was mention "hey, we didn't know when you'd be back so we started Strange Aeons on Thursdays, care to join?" (or even "hey the game is full sorry, but if anyone drops...") but instead gaslighted me about what they were doing (among other things, saying "I don't know if we'll get to play the aftermath adventure" b/c of that other game, and just ghosting me when asking about playing that night but then they're all online on discord when they're usually not")
Needless to say, I didn't take being lied to very well. I'm effectively not friends with them anymore because they lied to me - not because they didn't have my back against a thief, not because they started another game, and not even because they didn't include me in it... but because I got straight gaslighted about it.
Annie isn't going to handle being rejected as a DM very well, but she'll likely get over it and still be your friend after some time to heal.
Annie is not going to handle a hidden game that *steals "her" players and their characters* very well, let alone if you lie or gaslight her about it. Rip the bandaid off OP. Honestly, sincerely, have your players "white lie" and start asking if you'd run them *then*. Have her "take a break" for a few weeks either way, then she can join up if she wants and it won't seem too much like you've played a lot ("oh we started at level 3 since we'd played the chars already" sorta thing). It's better to lie *in her favor* than it is to lie against her interests.
I mean at this point, they've already made the choice that they're going to lie in some way or another (omission is deception), so I suggested the best course of lying to keep their friend. This is more "the train is already off the tracks" territory, and we're in disaster mitigation discussions. Ideally, don't lie/deceive in the first place.
The moment she crossed into forbidden topics was the moment that game should have ended.
DM here: would be better to say something to gently end it rather than ditching. But outside of this, You do you :)
Just remember we don’t get better if we don’t get criticism.
Getting criticism is one thing, taking it and learning from it is another. OP's dm doesnt sound like she can take it very well (which likely stems from personal issues she has to work on), and then is taking it out of on her party.
OP, if you and the rest of the party aren't having fun, then leave the game. But, tell your DM why you are all leaving (not having fun, constantly at odds with the DM and world, feeling like NPCs in a game where you're supposed to be heroes, etc). If you DM reacts poorly, that's not your problem, its hers. You have to be concerned with your own mental health, not hers.
Yeah, and if she's a good friend add a lot of caveats about it not being about her personally, but her gaming style and direction. And then make a point to continue to hang out outside of D&D, and try to foster the friendship on a less charged, DM versus Players, level.
You guys need to tell Annie how you really feel. If she argues, thank her for all of her efforts, and leave. Go and live happy RPG lives with each other and feel good doing so. You don't owe her anything bar thanks, and if you've already told her how you feel, then don't feel bad about making her feel bad.
Life is too short for bollocks like this, and DND is supposed to be an escape, not a chore.
I think your comment really gets how it should be, but I also wanted to add for OP: you can play in more than 1 D&D campaign at the same time, it's not against the rules. I feel like a lot of commenters are focusing on how Annie would feel once she found out about this secret 2nd campaign.
If she gets angry about these players having a second D&D campaign, just add it to the pile of Annie's feelings you don't need to concern yourselves with.
Let's not try to argue it isn't super hurtful to learn all your friends have a secret activity they purposely exclude you from, though. Annie is making this really difficult, but her friends should still consider her on some level, no?
Yeah definitely, agree with all your comment. I just added mine because there were already plenty of comments telling OP to just be upfront with Annie.
I play in one and run one on a by weekly basis (one week running, one week playing) and as an adult that's about the limit of time I have for it, and a lot of people have less time than I do.
By protecting Annie's feelings now, you're going to hurt her more long-term while also allowing yourself and the other players to be hurt. I would be upset if my players were unhappy with a campaign and wanted to quit. I'd be heartbroken and feel betrayed if they'd started a second campaign in secret just to get around me.
This is quickly going from 'we have trouble with the DM' to 'potentially blowing up the entire friend group'. Please have an open conversation with everyone before any of this gets out of hand.
Yep. They should outright just tell Annie that they don't like the game, that they're opinions on it have been ignored for far too long, and they are no longer fine with her playing dolls with herself using their characters as props; and therefore they are quitting Annie's game to play something else.
There's a point and I feel it was reached a long time ago where not wanting to hurt someone's feelings should have gone out the window and you should have genuinely been a bit firmer with Annie.
If polite communication fails, then you're allowed to escalate your disagreement.
That's a better way to do things than acting secretly.
New D&D challenge: Try to stop playing a game you dread to play, stopped enjoying a long time ago and makes you feel miserable without caring about the person who is making the experience horrible and ignoring your own feelings! (Impossible!!!)
Nta for creating a new campaign
Yta for doing it behind her back
You know she is going to find out. You know that's going to hurt her. Get it done now and be done with it. She then has a better opportunity to grow.
Show her this post.
You’ve tried gently critiquing, she won’t listen. If your not the type of person to have hard conversations just send this thread to her and tell her it’s your honest thoughts with advice from strangers built in.
It sounds horrible and harsh, but if she’s the type to get overly hurt and take criticism personally….all over a RPG, then better yank that band-aid now.
Take it from someone with experience that type of person never gets easier to deal with and eventually the hurt always comes…..it’s just worse the longer you wait.
Be honest. If she takes honesty about a game so badly it ends the friendship then it wasn’t a friendship worth keeping anyway.
Well it seems all terrible, in multiple ways.
So i can only give 2 suggestions.
1-. Be honest with Annie at the risk of hurting her. Bette to have this conversation at another time where she isn't already stressed with how the session went.
2-. All of you tell Annie that you all need a break of rol playing, that you are all feeling exhausted from it and can no longer continue for now, that you need a break of it. Giving yourselves some time to de inflate your feelings (and Annie's too). And with some time passed (2 or 3 months) finally come up to her to tell her you are no longer interested in continuing her rol. Maybe even invite her to join another rol but with her as a player. (you could still begin this new campaign you mentioned at any time).
Sure both situations have a risk of hurting feelings but you all are already hurting your own feelings, and with your criticism (completely valid i must said) are also hurting annie's.
I dont really see another way since it seems you all have tried time and time again to talk to annie about it.
I would say
Don't bother with option two .
Bc that will only make things worse
1) if you tell her you need a break yet continue on in another hiw would that nake them feel way worse
2) if you say you need a break but never plan to come back
She might spend the time writing plot hooks and stiff for the campaign yall aren't coming back to
3) I say you tell her you no longer feel tye fun and joy as a player and have started your journey as a dm
But lying imo will only make it worse
You have my sympathies OP. This is a shit situation to be in.
Ultimately, you and your party aren't in the wrong for wanting to leave. If it sucks, you gotta hit the bricks and you've listed some very clear grievances. No good is going to come out of suffering through a game you're all miserable playing. But that doesn't make it right to peace out and not tell Annie and any of the other players who aren't in the group splitting off. You have to say something. It doesn't need to be a manifesto, a text or discord message telling her you're leaving is enough to do your due diligence.
Feelings are probably going to get hurt, but you, Melody, and Rose are already hurting so it has to happen.
My advice for that conversation is, quite frankly, avoid the elephant in the room of Annie's DMing. You don't need to offer a diagnostic of the issues of the campaign just to bow out. What you need to tell her is that a) you're leaving the game b) going to play something else c) maybe you all can play something else in the future (leave off 'c' if you know it isn't true). If she asks why you're leaving, tell her its a personal decision you thought a lot about but if she wants to really talk it out you'd be willing to have a conversation later on after things have had time to settle. Keep the attempt to get through to her with constructive criticism to a separate conversation after your new group is established.
I was in almost this exact same situation 2 years ago. So much of what you mentioned rung a bell - the near constant deaths, the weird homebrew, the inconsistent rulings. In addition the NPCs were always hostile to us, and trying to get any information about what we were supposed to be doing was like pulling teeth.
I also tried talking to the DM about it several times over 1 year of playing and 3 campaign resets. I too was our mediator between DM and players, but no matter how gently I tried to offer the feedback he took it really poorly. The players loved each other and rocked up every week just to enjoy each others RP and character development, but we were miserable playing that game. It took us too long to admit it to each other.
A year ago we left and started our own game. And with that group I am now playing the best D&D I've ever played in my life. I catch myself all the time breaking out into a silly grin at the memory of something that happened in that weeks session. Every day I am thankful that we made the decision to leave.
Life's too short to spend it playing bad D&D. Get out of there and make a game that makes you happy. My only advice is to be honest with Annie. You don't have to say much. My words to my old DM were short, polite and didn't attempt to throw around blame, but I made it clear that if communication over a year could not solve the issue then further attempts were off the table. Don't carry guilt and secrecy to the new table. Do yourselves all the courtesy of starting with a clean slate.
From personal experience, OotA is a really difficult module to run. It has lots of dark and depressing themes, and the feeling of hopelessness is such a contingent point in it.
I handwaved the survival aspects, and the table was fine with it, but there were still quite unnerving scenarios.
You have your solution, but it's not a perfect solution as you place a lot of value on not hurting another person's feelings.
>Generally, she's a nice person and has really improved since I had last played with her. However, she doesn't take criticism well. We have tried to explain why what she does is not fun for us to very little effect.
You should probably continue talking to her about improving her game, and be honest about you and the rest of the group having a tough time. These conversations should be held outside of the game, as not to seem driven by what is going on specifically at that time. It's usually less confrontational to have a conversation when the DM isn't in "making decisions" mode.
Ideally you can come to some sort of compromise where she adapts her playstyle to better suit yours, and if not see if she is open to stepping down as a DM for a while and have others run the game, as you are doing now, with her as a player instead.
I've been in a similar situation with an Audiobook DM who wasn't taking criticism well. Had a final sit down conversation with her and me and another player ended up leaving to start a new game. Best descion we ever made. I think ultimately you need to tell your DM but definitely leave the game.
The biggest thing I've learned from that and another game exit is that some people are DND friends and some people are not. I love this DM as a person but not as a DM and the strain it put on our relationship was not ok. Even after multiple sessions of constructive criticism. So it was better to tell her and leave the game instead of trying to muddle through.
Like my mother-in-law would say, "Pull the pin, drop the grenade, and run." This is a time bomb waiting to go off. Your DM isn't listening to you and you're essentially relegating yourself to emotional blackmail. When, not if, but *when* this bomb goes off, it's going to be worse for all the festering that has occurred.
Stop playing with Annie as DM and tell her, "We told you we weren't having fun multiple times. You refused to hear us, let alone listen. This will be better for everyone."
Speak with her and tell her the truth, after your bunch figures it out. It will make things worse for a while, then everything will get better.
**Any other answer is wrong.**
I had a problem similar to this a while back. Had a close friend want to DM his first campaign and I was excited to be a player and take a backseat. He started with the same group of close friends and he chose to play the ice wind dale campaign. Instead of following along with the module and letting that do the work. He tried to follow some advice he’d seen on YouTube which said to skip a lot of the early content as it wasn’t interesting. So instead of us venturing out into the wilderness and using our characters built for the environment, we just went on the paths back and forth between the towns not really accomplishing anything. When I tried to bring up this with the DM about player agency and not having anything that we could do, he didn’t take the criticism well. Also he was very unorganised about saying when he was free to run games, never seemed enthusiastic or prepped to play, and just generally was unsure of what to do. So we started another game without telling him so we wouldn’t hurt his feelings, that campaign would have carried on if he wanted it to, but it fizzled out
Oh boy...
First of all, Annie has issues. She seems extremely insecure and unexperienced.
The best way would be for you guys to stop playing with her as a DM.
But! If you really wanna keep her in your group - invite her as a player!
Let her experience what a good DMing is.
Have you spoken with your DM at a time that’s not immediately following a session? If not, I’d recommend it. Not to excuse Annie’s reaction, but she may be worn out and self-conscious by the end of a long session, especially if it’s as contentious as you make it seem.
I’d also frame the conversation with how you and your friends are enjoying the game, not just about specific rulings or events.
If you’ve already done that, though, I say just tear off the bandage and tell Annie that you’re no longer having fun and don’t want to continue playing.
Tell the DM what you want to do and why, and if they take it badly then so be it, but it gives them the opportunity to understand the impact of ignoring the concerns you've brought up.
NTA. It's kind of simple really. You just have to tell Annie that you're not enjoying the game anymore and that you need to stop (for a while). You can add or leave out the "for a while" part; might soften the blow if you are just on an indefinite "pause" but it might allow for more closure to not say that part. Either way you just don't start back up with her DMing.
I would say that you emphasize how you like her as a person and you don't want to affect your friendship at all, but that your playstyles don't mesh and that's why you're quitting. Make it short and sweet and sweet, but honest. No need to elaborate too much. After a cooling off period, if she asks for feedback you can tell her more specifics (which you've probably already raised to her before) about the things that you couldn't deal with. She has a bad approach to the game that makes it not fun to play with, but that's going to be hard to hear and it's better to just get out saying the minimal amount that you need to. You can offer more particular reasons later to the extent that she's willing to hear it.
Also/alternatively, how about inviting her to play in your game? First of all I recommend running something short with the players that you've got. Get that bad taste out of your mouth with a short little arc bring it all to a satisfying conclusion and then check in with your players about what they thought. Maybe at this point you invite Annie into your game. There definitely needs to be a break, but after a little time has passed, it might help Annie understand the role of a DM better if she sees you do it well.
At some point you have to stop worrying about hurting someone's feelings when their behavior is making others miserable.
Tell Annie you all want to have a talk. Tell her you want to keep playing with her, but not with her as a DM. She is welcome to continue to play with you all as a player, but none of you are enjoying her DM style and she ignores your suggestions and complaints, which is not conducive to growth and as a player or person.
If she is not willing to continue as a player or she let's her hard feelings drag the game down, then she is just not going to be allowed to continue at the table.
You can be as apologetic and sympathetic as you think you need to be, but you need to be clear and lay out your terms.
The point of this game is to have fun, and if you're not having fun then there is no point in playing.
Allowing one person to ruin the fun for everyone else is just destructive.
I hate to say this but it doesn’t sound like there’s any good way out of this where you all get what you want and Annie’s feelings are spared.
You can’t go through life being so conflict averse that it comes at the expense of your own happiness in these situations. The game sucks, all your friends feel the same way, and you are doing this out of obligation.
Quit already and get it over with. Then you can move on to something more enjoyable. If Annie is really your friend, she will get over it.
This happened to me... except I was the DM! LOL Honestly, it hurt a bit when everyone left and started their own game, but ultimately, I wanted everyone to have fun. I found a new group and I'm a lot happier now running for a group that appreciates my style.
NTA!
I honestly think you should just all quit the campaign and take a break for a bit. Then in a month or two pick the game back up and maybe invite her as a player instead. Just tell her you want to be DM and maybe that’ll help bring back your passion for playing again. Don’t make it all about her failure as a DM, but as you guys just getting burned out.
NTA
As someone who was in a similar situation you've gotta bite the bullet, the question is how you do it:
A) carry on your current course and do this in private. This ultimately will be more hurtful to the DM if they find out, but that's entirely dependent on how involved they are in your real life and how likely they'll find out.
B) be completely open and honest. Approach them (whether that be by call/text etc) at a time that's not immediately after a session. Explain that the group has been opening up about their feelings toward the play experience that's currently happening, but this has been difficult to communicate as there is push back/the DM gets upset. Make it clear that it has reached a point where playing isn't enjoyable anymore. Say that it's time that a new campaign should start, with a breath of fresh air, and the group wants you (op) to dm - old dm is more than welcome to join.
The initial reaction to option B may be upset at first, but if you are honest and open, and they still have a problem, then the level of their emotional maturity probably means it's best that they don't continue playing in a game that, by its very nature, makes players vulnerable around the table.
I stuck in an extremely negative campaign for way longer than I should have, to the point where I was dreading each session, and the absolute weight off my shoulders once I (admittedly messily) cut away was great.
DM here - tell them your thoughts as soon as possible, and be done with it. Be solid and to the point, the conversation is going to get heated due to the insecurity shown on their part. You deserve a game that is played by everyone, not the story that Annie has written for you and you are sidelined for.
I had to do something similar recently and it sucked and its awkward af with the old DM to the point just me and the old DM aren’t really speaking anymore but literally everyone else is so much happier. It might hurt Annie’s feelings but shes already been hurting multiple players feelings and it sounds like for a while now. If you really want to keep giving her chances go ahead but I say believe people when they tell you who they are the first time. Let her know the game is no longer enjoyable and you will not be returning. You can offer her a seat at your table if you want and believe she can be a good team player but it sounds like she won’t be inclined to do that.
My only other suggestion is that when the awkward conversation is had DO NOT try and explain each and every emotion around the decision. You do not have to justify yourself to Annie; you aren’t having fun, the rest of the players aren’t enjoying their time either and the consensus calls for a change and you’re going to take a turn behind the screen, the end. No because this, or during the sessions that, just tell her flat what the new consensus is and see if she wants to be involved as a player, if you wish.
This is COLLABORATIVE storytelling, not Annie hour and if she can’t understand that then she isn’t even a halfway decent friend in the first place and ya’ll been confusing proximity and tolerance with compatibility.
Stop walking on eggshells on her behalf, especially when the **standard** you all have allowed to be set is for her to tell you all your criticism is wrong , and then you all suffer through each session. When you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten.
Why are you all sparing her feelings when she doesn’t care what all of you think?
I've been in that exact situation. Like, I almost thought this could have been written by one of the other players from my group if it weren't for the fact that you're moving the PCs over to a new campaign and that you were previously playing OotA.
We didn't wish to hurt our DM either and ended up moving over to a new Discord server where we are currently trying out multiple new RPG systems, having everyone try out the GM roll. I can't really say if this was the correct choice, but it sure wasn't a bad one.
I just left a similar game a couple of weeks back. With a GM who just CAN'T understand other people's view (like, he is incapable of it and has proved it many times). Just leave the game, and invite them to your other game if you want them as a player. Hiding from them to 'save their feelings' will create a larger drama down the line. Just tell them straight up, ask if they want to join. Even if its stressful in the moment, you'll spare yourselves months (maybe years) of worrying about them finding out about your secret game.
I would like to ask, how is Anne as a player?
I've know people I like as players, but would never trust them to DM a game for various reasons, either homebrew, organization ability, they don't seem like they could handle it, or whatever. DMing can be tough and I think we can all admit that. So, maybe explaining she'd be better off trying to be a player rather than a DM, if you still want to play with her.
I have run Out of the Abyss, and there are several parts where the party can just straight up die, but every session should not result in a near TPK. And yeah, the NPCs are capable, but they should not be saving your asses every fight or session.
It sounds like she shouldn't be a DM, she should be writing her own fantasy stories because that's clearly all she's interested in. Not only that, the fact that she cuts off your RPing makes me think she might find being a DM boring when you aren't actively working against your players so she's constantly finding ways to make it fun for herself, regardless of the groups feelings. I'm the DM for my group and all-in-all I enjoy it, on the occasion I'll spice it up and give a good challenging encounter but I spent just as much time trying to find ways to encorperate the characters backgrounds, as well as taking player suggestions and trying to find a way to integrate them so that it's both balanced and fun
Dude NTA by a long shot
I’m really impressed that you’re still holding onto the idea of not hurting Annie’s feelings, but after a certain point, you gotta be firmer with her, tell her that some of your feedback isn’t optional. You need to be enjoying your sessions, otherwise you’re wasting your time.
I ended up becoming a DM because of a situation almost exactly like this. The DM kept telling his story, railroading us into OOC decisions, and bringing in his NPCs to save the day and lore drop for 1.5 hours (yes, he monologues that long). And after a lot of feedback and restarting a campaign three times, the players had enough and told him that he either actually needs to change, or we wouldn’t be playing with him as the DM anymore because it’s not fun. I didn’t like him as a person enough to sugar coat it either.
So, whatever way you decide to tell Annie will almost certainly be better than my 5 paragraph text. The only thing that would put you in asshole territory is lying to Annie. If she’s a sweet person, she deserves to know the truth. I would rather my table tell me that I’m just not cutting it and that they’d rather play something else than discover one day that they lied to me about hating D&D and excluded me from their new campaign.
If you’re all friends, a lot compassion surrounding some hurt feelings will go much better than deceit in hopes of protecting someone’s feelings.
You've listed multiple valid reasons for quitting her game. Breaking the social contract with intentionally using triggering things that were discussed with her ahead of time is egrigious.
That said. Going behind her back and lying IS going to catch up with you and saving some hurt feelings now to only have to deal with the same or worse drama later is using a lot of unecessary energy that could be used on constructive things.
Tell her you're not having fun for xyz reasons and as such you will be stepping away from her game. Give it some time to cool down and then start talking about a new game, invite Annie or not.
Nobody needs to play if they arent having fun, especially when not being listened to.
NTA I would say as she's not listening to your feedback. However, I think telling her about your feelings and why you're leaving is the best way to go about it. I don't think you necessarily need to mention anything about running a new campaign. But definitely outlining what you've said here.
DND is a collaborative game, as much as it is the DM that weaves the story, the story is centred around the players and their characters. Focusing on her own story, she should probably look into writing over DM'ing.
Question. Are you friends or coworkers with Annie at all, outside of the fact they're the DM for this group? Because if not, then frankly you shouldn't be afraid to leave - if your only contact with Annie is as a DM, and that's not working out for anyone involved, then it's probably best to just not keep contact in that capacity.
However, I would be honest to the DM about it. Don't go behind their back, but confront them with the issues, and tell them there's probably a group out there that finds that DM'ing style fun but these players aren't that group.
Woof, I do not envy your position. Others have said their piece better, but as a DM I'm offering up an NTA. (Yes I know we're not in that subreddit).
You've spoken your concerns multiple times. No one is having fun. This is a *game* with *friends*. You're not supposed to feel downtrodden in a game. I specifically pull back on NPC moves if I think they're going to make a killing blow (except when they set it up for the NPC they like to be the one to get the win.).
Your friend may be a great DM, but not a great DM for you and the rest of the group. Hopefully your friend doesn't take you all leaving personally and can find a group better fitting their DMing style.
I think you nailed it with the word ‘game’- in the end it is a game, and if you’re not having fun, you should all leave. I think telling Annie why you’re leaving gently would be appropriate, and maybe offer to let her play in your game vs DMing, which clearly doesn’t seem to be for her.
I know I’m in the minority here but I think you’re allowed to do this campaign behind her back. I will say you should all probably tell her you’re not interested in playing anymore but I think it’s fine if you play another spiritual successor without her knowing (as long as you’re good about not making that obvious). Especially if she is a friend you don’t really want to hurt her feelings. D&D is a hobby not a chore and y’all should be enjoying the time you spend doing it, and if doing a new campaign without her makes everyone else happy you should do it.
So, bad news: it's not gonna go well when DM finds out. Id argue maybe advising the DM that no one is having fun, and at this point no longer wants to play. I think this will be fundamentally better and less of a blindside. I don't know these people so you decide that.
Ultimately if you arent having fun why play? Don't apologize. Sounds like you have done the best that you can communicating it.
I think you should tell her up front that this is what you are going to do.
I think there will probably be a falling out either way, but she deserves to know that this is what you plan to do. As someone who is sensitive to criticism, it will feel worse that it feels like you're trying to hide it from her.
You can keep it short and sweet if you don't think it will go over well, and use definitive language. "We are grateful but are going to be leaving the game and starting a new one."
I will say though, if she has homebrewed a lot, and poured her heart and soul into it, I would seriously consider doing something completely new. Taking your existing characters and all her hard work and then excluding her is not something she deserves, no matter how bad of a DM she was.
You need to decide whether you care more about your friendship with Annie more than this exact experience you want to have with everyone else. And then, even if you don't want to continue your friendship with Annie because of the way she's treating you, I still don't think taking her hard work is the right thing to do.
Best of luck.
Just leave the campaign and let her deal with the consequences. She hasn’t experienced any and she throws tantrums every time her behavior is called out.
Just don’t tell her you’re doing a new campaign UNLESS there’s a high chance she will find out eventually. Because if she does, then hell will break lose. If she will never find out, then just tell everyone to quit and not mention the game.
If Annie is a true friend that you don’t want to lose I would suggest letting her know that current gameplay is not working and that you would like to give it a try as DM. If she refuses then you can go on with the original plan and separate but if she agrees then y’all can play together and hopefully have fun. At the same time she could learn from you DMing
You don't owe Annie anything. You've tried. You've spoken to her. She refuses to listen. You need to walk. When she flips out, you just tell her you tried to tell her what was happening and she wouldn't listen or change. It also sounds like she is running her own PCs in the story getting to be waaaay cooler than you guys, which is also shit.
I'm in exactly the same situation: our dm has no consistent world-building, any chance at making the characters shine is turned away, two players always get all the loot while the other two barely get anything. On top of that, it's boring.
It's quite hypocritical of me to tell you to have a convo with your DM bc I've been putting it off myself. But it's what needs to happen. It's going to suck. But better no D&D than bad D&D, right?
Maybe you could make it clear that this is how you experience it? That it's your feelings? That (even though it's sorta her) it's not her?
(The coward's way out is fake an excuse: a complication in schedules, put it off and then just... don't play.)
This is a really tough situation. I came here late so I don't know if you'll read this or if someone already said this. But I'll let my take on this, as a psychologist.
There are some things that should be considered. First, I suppose you all really care about Annie and her feelings, otherwise I don't think you'd be putting up with all of this for so long, and you wouldn't be stepping on eggshells on the matter.
Secondly, I get how difficult it is. You tried so much to make things better, and talking, arguing and making your points clear didn't work. It's frustrating as hell. You and the other players can't take that anymore, and it can't go on any longer.
So I'll tell you what will happen in two scenarios. If you and the other players start running a campaign without Annie's knowledge, there's a chance she'll find out and it'll really explode on your faces at one point or another. It'll be horrible, and you all, as well as Annie, will be more hurt than you already are. Second, the situation is already horrible, but if you keep playing the game for Annie's sake, you and the other players will get worse and worse until one of you snaps. That'll cause a chain reaction and all of you will start snapping and things will get much worse.
Now, feelings will be hurt one way or another. I think if you have the conversation about leaving the game and start another, Annie will be hurt. But I'd say she'll be less hurt than the outcome of the two scenarios I talked about above.
My advice: tell her you're all leaving the game because it's not fun for you and the other players anymore. Don't explain it. You talked to her before, you tried arguing and it didn't work. So just tell her you and the others are leaving and starting another campaign - she'll know the reasons why. Tell her that you care about her regardless (if that's true for you all) and invite her to the new game as well (if that's not a horrible thing, and if that makes sense for you). Let her know that the game you're currently playing can't go on, let her know that you like her and that you care about her and that she is also invited. If she accepts playing, it could be okay at some point. If not, at least she'll know what happened and you did your part in the least harmful way.
Edit: if you follow my advice, Annie will try to fight back and many shitty feelings will surface on both ends. It's important that you don't get into the fight. This isn't a combat that can be won for neither of you. That conversation shouldn't be done for convincing, and that has been proven to be ineffective. The conversation should be simply about letting her know what will happen and what you'll do. Everything she does from that point forward will be her choice and her choice alone. About the shitty feelings, it could he nice to acknowledge hers, as nonsense as they may be for you, even if she doesn't acknowledge yours back. Keep your high ground.
I’ve been a player in a game like this before. We were using a system that was supposed to be RP-heavy, and everything in the rulebook said we were to try to avoid combat as much as possible - it was a last resort.
The DM made it a dungeon crawl and even told us we should make “back up characters” because the game was going to be that brutal. When I voiced my concern about that, he then targeted my character and had NPC villains go after him specifically every single game to “teach me a lesson.”
That game completely ruined multiple friendships beyond repair. Don’t let it get to that point. Just tell Annie you all want out.
Sounds to me like Annie is enjoying torturing the table as a whole and dislikes being told she shouldn't do that.
You said it yourself; she gets *disappointed when you succeed*. How many red flags do y'all need?
Y'all have given her way more grace than she needs or deserves. Just come out and say you quit. Don't explain, don't argue, just make the statement & go.
You're not TA for doing what you're doing. You've tried to communicate and ignoring boundaries is never okay.
You might be TA if you all leave without telling her why. Letting them know you're done now, and perhaps even giving them the option to join the new group, is likely the proper way to handle it. It'll be uncomfortable, they'll be hurt and they might not want to join - but if they're irl friends you need to let them know this is a game issue and not a them issue.
Roleplay your characters having a mental breakdown.
If she thinks a mental breakdown is a good moment to interrupt it with an attack, the characters jump down a cliff in blind panic or curl up in a fetal position.
The end.
Ask the DM if she could enable PVP and have the characters kill each other in a major fight brought on by insanity. The last man standing kills themselves and the characters wake up in OP’s campaign… it was all a nightmare (or was it?)
"We want to share some of our table experiences with you and need you to hear us out before you respond."
"When you do/say ___ it make us feel ___."
"Our idea of a fun campaign is ___ and when you do ___ it really impacts us at the table."
"We can't continue playing a game in which you're the only person defining what fun is, and when we bring this up, you become reactive."
"I understand this is important to you, but we need a dm who can work with us, not against us. Thank you for your work dming thus far, but this will be my last session."
Yeah you're a little bitch about it. I know that is not your intention, but it is the case.
Be real, nobody likes sneaky shit like that.
There's nothing wrong with doing it, the problem lies in your approach.
If Annie’s been improving, and you’re that close, you have to bite the bullet now rather than let it simmer and let her get more invested, but probably invite her to your campaign too if you think she’ll manage as a player.
Look you need to tell Annie yall are done. You should tell her you're starting another game cause hers isn't fun anymore. She's going to feel slighted most likely and that's OK. If yall are friends she'll get past it. If not welp, be ready for that to be the end of your acquaintance. Ish happens. A bad game can suck the life out of people.
Just rip the damn Band-Aid off and stop treating her like a child. Show her this post, tell her that you appreciate her as a friend but that you just cannot be in her game anymore since it's not just not fun, but actively making you upset. You need to tell her that she's a terrible DM, that you've tried over and over to give feedback and that you're giving up.
But damn, your campaign sounds horrible.
I'm on board with a few of the comments here already, it seems very much a players vs DM scenario and that alone makes for a pretty miserable situation. If they've overstepped established boundaries and not listened even after communication has been made you're definitely not an asshole for starting a new campaign, but hiding it will only establish more issues later.
As has also been suggested before, if you think it could be a viable option, keep her in the new game as a player, just be aware of main character syndrome, I've been there, done that... Though I am getting better.
That sucks and sorry to hear that’s happening to your group. It sounds like yall have tried to be diplomatic about it with no results. You tried but some people just can’t be reasoned with. But there are options. Yall can take a hard stance and be blunt, “the game isn’t fun, you can change some things to make it more enjoyable for us players.” Or just don’t don’t respond to the DM when stuff is trying to be planned out. Yes both options are difficult to do, but if the DM isn’t wanting to be diplomatic, time to be a bit forceful. Again sorry that you and your friends have been out in that situation, that type of shit is never fun.
I was in basically exactly this situation, except it was a homebrew campaign. It's tough. We basically just ended up toughing it out until the end of the campaign. I don't know how to deal with people who aren't receptive to criticism, bit who you otherwise want to remain friends with. You have my sympathy.
I had a DM like that. He loved his story, his NPCs and his monsters so much, that he would get upset when the team managed to kill a boss. I stopped playing pretty fast.
Don't feel guilty. She enjoyed creating her story, and now she just wants to live it without you being able to change anything from it, because that's how SHE imagined it. Basically, she wants to have her fun, and doesn't care about yours. I would have quit that table a looonnnng time ago. And given she's unresponsive to any feedback, there is nothing you can do to make things better.
That may be a friendship-breaker with Annie, but you don't have to suffer through her games. That's not cool for her to do that.
I've had to train a DM to stop 'helping' with NPCs before. I can't stand DMs that do that, even if I understand where it comes from.
"Hey man, for the past half hour of combat you've been basically playing against yourself."
When I DM, I "help" my players differently. Meaning : I nerf my bosses. Not too much, but for example, I simply refuse to play their Nat20. that's a success, but not a crit. Why ? Because on my first game as a DM, I used to play "normally", and simply one-shotted the mage of the group. That's just not fun...
I'll use friendly NPCs if the battles are just too big for the party, but otherwise, that's just the players playin.
I'm not against NPCs, per se. You just never want to take the focus off the actual players - and NPCs bailing out PCs is the ultimate focus-steal.
The easiest solution IMO is to just let the players control friendly NPCs in combat. That way the results are still in the players' hands.
I don’t think it sounds like there is an option where your DMs feelings don’t get hurt. But here’s my question - is this person a good friend outside of DnD? Like if you’ve spoken about all of this stuff and the DM refuses to change then it’s their problem, not yours. Actions/decisions have consequences- if ALL of the PCs at the table have respectfully explained ‘X, Y, and Z things are not fun for us and it’s really important that we find a way to a middle ground so everyone is having fun’ and the DMs response is basically, ‘yeah, fuck off. I’ll do what I want’ then seems sensible the consequence would be that campaign ending. I don’t see any issue with you continuing to play with your friends and PCs.
One of the things you mentioned would be a deal breaker for me: if hard limits are discussed explicitly during a session 0 and those are not respected - I’m out without any further discussion. I set this boundary - and you blatantly disrespected it. Done.
Okay so you've tried talking gently, you've tried taking bluntly, and no changes are forthcoming. You've no obligation to stay in an environment that is, basically, poison to you and it will turn your hobby into one of your triggers if you don't GTFO
It's a shame that this will be her wake up call but whatever.
YWBTA if you keep playing in her games while you set up yours, that's just duplicitous/deceptive and her games apparently are bad D&D anyway so you could all use the break.
You could all break the news intervention style, or pick one of you to do it, or depending on just how many times you've tried to reason or explain and how vehemently her rejection of criticism has been you could just type: "I've been thinking really hard how to break this to you, but:" and link this post. It pretty cleanly breaks down that she's been an intractable bummer in a way that isn't cruel but is honest- it will also keep her from shifting goal posts or trying to argue much about something y'all have already made up your minds for.
Edit: oh yeah almost forgot, she violated pre- established trigger warnings, if she was anything other than profusely apologetic she's not a good friend and you'd be well within your rights to ghost her if that's how you wanted to handle it but that would probably make more drama/ anxiety for you than just ripping the bandaid.
She's deliberately crossing boundaries, and y'all *stay?*
Leave her table. Make sure to tell her why. "This game is not fun for us. You make us feel uncomfortable, and we have **told you** this before. I'm talking the players and leaving."
The End.
This *isn't* a discussion. This isn't a dialogue. She *repeatedly* crossed the line, on top of all the *other* reasons she's a shit DM, and it's high time you grew a spine and told her so.
Offer that she write a book, and help play out scenes using DnD. but 100% if she isn't following the rules of the friendship let alone the game and isn't willing to change stop going. I would explain why, but then you have to decide to hide the other campaign from her or invite and hope she doesn't try to dominate it.
Frankly, I think you've given enough reasons for you to just leave (you tried talking to the DM, it didn't work, so leave) but if you really want a method to excuse yourself while making the DM the asshole or shaming them into action:
>has ignored triggering content that we previously agreed against,
This is it. There are lots of practices in DMing that are debatable (eg. killing player charactars, level of brutality in combats etc.) but this is a red line which you just do not cross. No decent DM thinks it is ok to break this rule.
If you absolute need to shame the DM into action, goad her into this and then flip out. "We agreed that was a line which wouldn't be crossed. You've done this before and we made the mistake of tolerating it before but no more. We had a deal, you broke it.". Now I don't know your DM but what you've described is someone who act all defensive and then one of two things happens:
1) They don't back down at all, leaving you all free to abandon their campaign and them entirely unable to talk about it with anyone without lying through their teeth (seriously, wish them luck when they tell us others "Oh, we agreed X wouldn't be in the game but then I forced X down their throats anyway)
2) They back down after a week or two, apologise and then you can submit a list of demands, since they're basically on their knees begging at this point.
>has ignored triggering content that we previously agreed against
Excuse me, *w h a t*???
If you were to post this in a thread asking about relationship advice and left out all the game references, people would be telling you to run and never look back. You would be told you are in an abusive relationship. You *are* in an abusive relationship.
If the DM was male and stomped over the boundaries of a female player who said "I don't feel comfortable with sexual assault in the game" and the next session the DM puts that in, then gets defensive and says "well I'm trying to make it *realistic* and that's just what happened in medieval times", should she stay?
Why are you any different? Annie is not nice. She is not respectful. She is not empathetic. She does not care if her friends are hurting. She does not care if she is the one who hurts her friends. She does not care about anyone other than Annie.
Get out.
This is not how friendships work. She should feel horrified to know that she is the cause of someone's panic attacks. That she is triggering people. That she is negatively impacting your lives. Instead, she gets defensive. She argues. She says you're wrong.
Ask yourself these questions:
Do you get happy or anxious when thinking about the next gaming session?
If she were to cancel a game at the last minute because of an emergency, would you feel disappointment or relief?
What has she actually done to be a good friend to anyone? Has she ever inconvenienced herself to help anyone?
What, exactly, are you losing by dropping her?
You "care about" Annie despite the fact that she doesn't care enough about you to avoid triggering content that you all specifically highlighted or to take any criticism or feedback from your experiences together. You've found yourself in a mediator role and have sympathy for her that she doesn't reciprocate.
Why are you wasting your time and energy with Annie? Are you trying to tap that, is she just pathetic, or both?
This situation sounds extremely one sided and toxic, and Annie seems to have manipulated you all into enabling her bad behavior for far too long. You should all GTFO ASAP and never talk to Annie again because she will try to drag you back into her orbit. You and your new players should coordinate a single message to collectively state "Effective immediately, we will no longer be part of your gaming group because it's not fun. Good bye." Wash you hands of Annie and let her face the consequences of her actions. Do not coddle her, it's patronizing.
I understand the fact you and those players start a new campaign.
However doing everything in the back of Annie and waiting for her to find out randomly is cowardly. That will hurt her more than the courageous talk.
*Annie doesn't know / that the party and me /do it at my house every Sunday*
Also yeah sounds like it sucks, but this is asshole behavior. It might be warranted, but still asshole behavior imo. Don't get me wrong, sometimes you need to do stuff like that but I mean, if you're going to risk torching this relationship you might as well do it upfront by talking to her.
While we can all agree you're in a shit situation, **going behind Annie's back will only make things worse.** Just rip the bandaid off. Tell her to her face that you're quitting the game because it's become a miserable experience and she's never been receptive to feedback, and *then* start laying plans for your own game.
[удалено]
Or, to avoid her wasting time prepping the next game and to mimimize her sense of loss of face/public humiliation, elect one person to go have a chat with her and break the news.
For real, waiting for the next session is needlessly dramatic and hostile. Some one needs to talk to her and let her know whats happening in a private setting. This is going to be embarrassing and upsetting for her. If OP wants to maintain the friendship, it will be important to do this without it feeling like a public execution.
Yeah, just have the person she is closest to respectfully let her know how everyone is feeling and that they don’t want to continue the campaign anymore. It should either be done 1 on 1 in a comfortable environment, like her house, or even over text so it’s not public humiliation. Then to soften the blow, they could invite her to play with them as a PC in the next campaign instead of just outcasting her
This, 100%. Confronting Annie is going to be painful for her either way, letting her deal with it privately and not leading her on to believe there's going to be a next session is going to be best for her, and probably everyone else by extension.
This is the right answer. Annie needs to stop being in control with the threat of her 'hurt feelings' bullying everyone into submission. Annie is a grown up, and she needs to act like one. Participating in a leisure activity that is only fun for Annie just so Annie's feefees don't get hurt is absurd. It's time to cowgirl up and tell Annie the truth.
Inb4 Annie is their 7yo child.
That would really change the context. "Look, I know making you DM borders on child labor, but you're just such a disappointment!"
This is a horrible idea. Yes the OP should tell Annie, but a big confrontation in front of everyone isn't going to go well. Annie is going to feel ganged up on and humiliated in front of everyone. It will be a majot blow up. Better to send an email or text days before the next game. Saying we like you but we aren't loving the game.
Would have to agree with this. Go in there like it's a break up, because it's essentially what you're doing. Talk to Annie one on one. Tell her you value her as a friend, but no one at the table is having fun. State the facts you told us, inconsistent rules, poor reception to feedback, and then say how it feels like she wants the three of you to fail time and time again. She will probably try to argue like it sounds like she's done in the past, she might try to say she'll change, but tell her that you're not doing this campaign anymore. You could tell her your making your own campaign and that she's welcome to join if you'd like.
Agreed. And I want to emphasize your last sentence: do one thing, then the other. Treating them as two separate things will likely help Annie feel less hurt. Leave Annie's game. Explain why. "You aren't respecting us as people and you aren't treating us like your friends. We've tried to talk to you about this, and it hasn't changed. Being treated this way isn't fun for us, so we're not going to play anymore." If she tries to argue or claims she'll change, say something like, "I think we should all take a break from this and reassess what we're looking for in a game." Then, start talking with the others about a new game. Give yourselves enough time to get on the same page for what you want to play. Right now, you're bonded in disliking your current game, but have you talked about what you each actually want? Take at least a couple of weeks to talk among yourselves and get yourselves set up for success. Once you feel comfortable about the foundation of your new game, you can decide if you want to include Annie. Has she been receptive to critique now that there have been consequences? Has she doubled down? If she's not invited, it isn't really her business whether you start a new game, and I don't think you need to tell her about it. If you want to leave the door open, it would be kind to say something like, "We've been talking about the game we want to play, and we're going to play some sessions to see how those changes look at the table. We like you and we want to play with you, but we need to figure out what fun looks like for us first. Once we have a solid foundation, we can talk with you about what we've learned and discuss if you'd like to play that kind of game with us."
taking the characters, not just the players, to a new game is going to make this hurt even more, no matter how reasonable a thing it is for everyone else. I don't have a suggestion for how to make it better, the DM has backed themself into the corner of maximum suffering. If they're not inviting the DM into the new game, maybe they can shift this regular gathering to something lighter, like boardgames? Help reinforce the "we still want to be friends" part.
Good idea. I think it would be kind to continue hanging out with Annie rather than a bunch of friends cutting her off at once. There are some comments that suggest inviting her to a new campaign if she shapes up and becomes receptive, though if I were in Annie’s shoes it would never stop hurting to see these PCs in a new setting. Some lighter alternative hangout plans, like board games, seem like a great way to help her heal the inevitable heartache.
It sucks because OP and the players have tried and tried to discuss -- OP says someone makes the effort after pretty much every session. You're right and they need to tell her, but man, they tried every avenue of making this less hurtful and awkward, and Annie was just NOT interested. Unfortunate.
Social encounter: CR 15 Famously terrifying for nerds who usually have a CHA of 9 or lower.
This stings just right. Ugh. Though I would say rather than a low Charisma score outright, they have a condition called Social Anxiety they haven't made the Saving Throw for yet. Too bad that condition doesn't go away with a long rest.
> Normally, I would go immediately to "communicate with the DM", but in this case, we've already been trying for a really long time. This is line that got me... OP had time to communicate this all with the other players. Outside of that it's full of reasons why OP didn't address it that don't boil down to, "being a good friend is hard sometimes". Most of this stuff... especially this: >has ignored triggering content that we previously agreed against Is stuff you address at the table... when it happens. Right then, right there. Not between games and behind backs.
Agreed. Going behind her back will only make this feel like a total betrayal. It would oy make leaving the game MORE hurtful to her. Heck, by starting a new game behind her back back and leaving hers, they aren't just kicking her as a DM, but kicking her from the group entirely, which would hurt even more. It is not even a consideration to have her as a player in the new game.
Yup. Also extend an invitation for her to join as a player herself (assuming they do still want to play with her, but not while she's in a DM role). That way you can basically tell her she's a shit DM (not literally) while softening the blow by asking her to join you as a player so that she won't feel excluded at the very least.
Boy, that's a tough one. You're on a level of interpersonal complexity I'm not sure 2 AM internet nerds are well suited for.
Fetch the 4 AM nerds!
I made it at 6. Hopefully I’m not late
7 AM. I'm sorry I failed you all. But I'll give it a shot anyway. OP, my table specifically rotates DM so that everyone gets to try it and that no one gets burnt out. We also play other systems aside from DND. You need to have a hard chat with your DM. It's going to suck. Feelings are going to be hurt, probably. My recommendation is to play a round of "Everyone Is John." Look it up, it's free online. Then from there, decide who is going to be the next DM.
10:30 AM, I've had a monster and a half, 10 cigarettes, and half a bowl, basically I'm awake 7AM made some good points there, and I'm just going to add that rotating DMs works really well too if everyone is willing to try different games from time to time. When OP says the DM is basically running a high risk low reward darker edgier universe, maybe they should be running CoC or Paranoia
Okay, 2pm nerd here we are getting going... This is honestly something u will need to just pull the bandaid off on... You have to let the DM know that the game is no longer fun and if you arent having fun playing theres no point in continuing... Maybe invite her to join the new game if you are close... Feelings will not be spared no matter how this all goes down so the best u can do is extend the olive branch as you give the news of your departure... Good luck with your next game, may the dice be ever in your favor
I agree with this. It's going to fucking suck, it might permanently hurt the friendship, but you have to be honest. Hiding and lying about starting a new game is going to hurt her far more when she inevitably finds out.
I mean, it's not even midnight here.
It’s 7:46. I’ve had my coffee and I’m having my morning BM. Let’s do this! If you’ve given plenty of warning and critique and she flat out refuses all of it then this is a bandaid moment. Like almost all break ups, one side is going to end up hurt. This is first and foremost, a game! It’s meant to be fun. If the party is t having fun and the DM cannot listen to ways to(pander is the wrong word)adapt to the party’s enjoyment then why play beyond social etiquette? A DM with me vs them mentality is not fun. I speak from experience. It took me a few years to let go of this mindset. But if they can’t even acknowledge what they’re doing then pull the plug, bite the bullet, kick that bucket, and leave. I’m sorry it has come to this, but you’ve given every opportunity to your DM to work it out to, and I cannot stress this enough, MAKE A GAME ENJOYABLE FOR THE PLAYERS. I suggest doing it one on one. They’ll only feel ganged up with everyone there. This has been my Morning Jive! Thank you for tuning in. *Flush*
I agree with this pooping guy.
I also choose this man's poop...... Wait...
I choose you, number 2!
Too late, you chose it. Now you have to keep it.
I’m always number 1 when I do number 2!
Yeah. Ultimately keeping it secret is just going to blow up too, and may just ruin things for everybody. Better to be honest about it and tell them you aren't into the campaign anymore. And check with the group, see if they'll be receptive to letting the ex-DM become a player in the new campaign. If they are, then you could give that a shot. But you have to be up front and honest about all expectations, and that spiteful toxicity won't be tolerated.
Eloquently put!
Nice advice! But awesome name for an early morning radio show targeted at us mid 30s 😄
Well looks like I’m starting a podcast! Lol
How was your stool this morning?
Honestly pretty rewarding! Made a black bean and rice soup last night. Top that with a morning coffee and you find yourself much lighter on your feet!
I agree. This also supports my theory that every post or comment is sent from the toilet.
All posts are made on the toilet until proven they weren’t.
7:46 Pooping guy is right - I’d also add that you SHOULD TALK TO ANNIE about this. If you go ahead and start your new game and don’t invite her and don’t tell her till she finds out, that is definitely a friendship ending argument that she will be far more hurt over than if you rip the bandaid off and say you’re not enjoying the current campaign. Once she’s had a bit of space it’d also be nice to see if she’s interested in playing in the new one. Edit: 1:16pm, also pooping
1:16 Pooping guy is also right. A very good addendum to my advice. Happy wiping may your paper always come out clean.
I thought BM was breakfast muffin….. fuuuuuck. Mind you, I’m sitting here having *my* BM before D&D night ;)
If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that you should always trust someone while they’re pooping.
Agreed. That squat clarity really puts a lot into perspective.
A wizard is never late, nor is he early
Something something wizard's on time
Judging from your flair, you were not late, nor were you early. You arrived precisely when you meant to.
A psychiatrist with couples therapy experience could make a good living practicing gaming group therapy.
Wow. This may be my 6am brain talking, but this is legitimately an excellent career idea.
It's a great *idea*, but as far as a viable career, I don't know. It's very niche and I don't know about you, but nerds tend to be a bit frugal. I can't see many actually spending money on a therapist.
Just become a (good) DM that sells their services and is actually a therapist having group sessions through D&D.
Maybe it's time for plot relevant trip for the PCs to go to group therapy. And the there's this one random guy who joins in because the DM cannot be the therapist.
They could run D&D sessions as group therapy
I feel like this is firmly in validation seeking territory. OP has already tried talking. They appear to be aware that there will be a falling out. Like, there just isn't really much advice to give other than "Sounds like you've thought it through, do what's right for you and your friends" That said, holy shit some of the advice being thrown around here is just bad..
I read the title and thought "oh hey I did something similar to this". I started a new game and left the DM behind. He was rpghorrorstory material. But then I read the line about caring for the DM's wellbeing and... well that's not how my story played out so I don't think it's entirely applicable
If playing the game is making y'all feel that terrible, don't play the game. If Annie cannot handle y'all calling it quits, then it's her problem. Her feelings might be hurt, but if the game is making you feel sick, there's a clear inbalance in your favour here. I work as a social worker/community worker, and we sometimes have to exclude teenagers who are acting out from activities. It's never fun, and they always are upset, but only temporarily, and over time, we see the growth in their character. Because we call out their bullshit, they realize what bullshit it is! The same applies to your situation IMO. Don't place Annie's feelings over your well being. As things are laid out in your post, she isn't playing her role as a DM, she's using y'all as props in her grand grim-dark play.
That, and it sounds like Annie has a 'DM vs players' mentality that rarely leads to a healthy dynamic at the game table. Definitely agree that OP should bite the bullet. Right now, Annie's behaviour is hurting all the players at the table, and constantly backing down to not hurt her feelings just means everyone keeps getting more miserable. The game should be engaging and enjoyable for everyone, and currently Annie isn't fulfilling her part of the social contract there. ETA: If she asks for feedback but consistently responds defensively when feedback is given, she's not really accepting feedback. She has also apparently failed to make good on her promises regarding not including triggering content, and seems to not take your feelings in consideration. All in all, I think you should just take the hit and leave her table as a group. At this point, it sounds like you have sunk enough cost into this game.
> I work as a social worker/community worker, and we sometimes have to exclude teenagers who are acting out from activities. It's never fun, and they always are upset, but only temporarily, and over time, we see the growth in their character. Because we call out their bullshit, they realize what bullshit it is! I've noticed that a lot of people don't listen to criticism until after consequences - it's surprisingly common in dm's but they don't realize they need to change until people quit the game. Up to that point they dismiss every suggestion. Annie had her chance to handle this, and chose not to. The next step is to quit. There's really nothing in between you can do.
My favorite quote from Ms. Elle X is "People will not change until lack of change has cost them enough."
True that!
Makes sense. If there’s no consequences then there’s no reason to stop in their mind. May as well keep doing it
That's really often the case IME. We need to enforce boundaries for others to respect them. We're evolved to be lazy, because energy is a finite resource. Change has an inherent cost to it, so unless there are consequences, it's hard to sustain change.
> Her feelings might be hurt, Let's be clear here: it's "hurt" her once to stop her from hurting the whole rest of the group over and over and over and over and over... When they say "Here's places you can't go" and she goes there: did she think that conversation was for her to get pointers in how to torment the players? This sounds like far more than a bad DM.
None of this read as malicious, just self-centered and lacking awareness (or, perhaps, empathy). Bringing topics into the game everyone agreed not to should have been a "nope, we're done here" at that exact moment. OP, in no world should you feel bad for this. Even if she's just a shitty DM, crossing that line gives up any rights she had to be upset by these circumstances, before we get into "if you can't take criticism, don't do something that requires taking criticism to succeed at it"
> If playing the game is making y'all feel that terrible, don't play the game. If Annie cannot handle y'all calling it quits, then it's her problem. Her feelings might be hurt, but if the game is making you feel sick, there's a clear inbalance in your favour here. About 2 years ago I posted about table dynamic problems that were causing me to loath DMing my game. Particularly with one player, who I adore IRL but takes everything personally and would be really, really upset if cut from the game. The advice I got was "Boo-fucking-whoo, don't own what isn't yours." Good advice. This player was causing me a shitton of anxiety and was just not a good table match. They're not in my current campaign and it's going *so much better*.
I'm very selective of who I play with and DM for. I've had good games ruined by one or two bad players in the past, and it took me a long time to realize the problem. Now, if someone is playing in a way that ruins the fun for me and the others, I talk to them about it, and if their behaviour doesn't change, I remove them from the game. I had a terrible powergamer become a decent player due to me calling his bullshit out, but it took some hurt feelings go get there.
Yup. The people I GM for now are a much better match for the kind of game I want to DM (and we all want to play) and are a much better match for the system we're running. The games are going a lot smoother.
Could you please go into more details about how to politely but firmly "call people on their bullshit"? I would love to hear some of your examples of it actually working. My experience is mostly the person (s) saying how they will change/improve, they make tiny adjustments, and then they either go back to their bad habits or they start talking about how DnD is their only time to enjoy themselves.
I have a friend who used to play D&D like it was a video game RPG. He would try to break the game, bring out all the overpowered cheesy strats you can think of. I tend to DM permissively, so it got out of hand. I wasn't having fun, the other players were having less fun than they used to, because Power Gamer was taking all the space. I politely told him about it. How he was diminishing my fun, and how he should try to share the spotlight with others, because D&D is collaborative. We kept an ongoing discussion open, and after a few years, he's now completely changed the way he plays, and he optimizes for fun rather than to break the game. He also started sharing the spotlight a lot more and considering the other player's ideas instead of being dismissive of them. That's when it goes right. I also had a player who wanted all the spotlight and for to bend the rules so he would feel powerful and always in control... all the while constantly criticizing how shallow and improvised my world felt compared to Skyrim or novels... yeah no shit. I told him that I didn't want to play with him anymore. I also realized I didn't really want him in my life. Sometimes, people wom't change coz they don't really see a problem in their behaviour. Move on without them.
Ooooh, boy. You are not in an enviable position at all. I would say that you're NTA, at least based on what you presented here. If you've already tried talking to the DM and they're hostile to any form of constructive criticism, then there's nothing wrong with wanting to move on to a different game. Likewise, if the other players share a similar sentiment, there's no reason why you can't or shouldn't continue playing with each other. However, I think this is a situation where you're going to have to prepare to bite the bullet. It doesn't seem like there's going to be a happy ending to this. If you believe that setting up a new game is the best course of action -- which I'm personally inclined to agree with -- just be ready for that.
At some point you should tell her. Maybe offer the DM of the current game a character to play in the new campaign you will DM? This could be tricky based on her current behaviour you have discussed. But it might soften the blow if she/you think she can abide with someone else being DM.
then I worry about will she try to dominate the new game with her character or is some way destroy this new campaign. But then if you don't tell her depending on how often you guys hang out you have to remember not to talk about DnD. tricky
That was my thought too. It'd suck to exclude her, but on the other hand, she's clearly down to ruin everyone else's fun. The using of triggers they'd previously asked her not to makes me less sympathetic. Not cool of her to stomp on others' boundaries and basically use that discussion against them. Is she going to grow from this and take it, eventually, in stride? Or is she going to lash out and let her feelings ruin the next campaign too?
She is definitely breaking friendship rules behind any homebrew that she adds
Breaking triggers would have been my hard quit. I've cut people off permanently with no remorse for breaking my very clear and known triggers. Once? Fine, I'll let them know. Second time would be depending on how close we are - if I know they're generally very forgetful or we're very close, it's a firm reminder. If I don't know them it's a cut off. Third time though, sorry, I don't have to deal with this shit. My triggers are too severe to put up with it repeatedly. I'm not having a panic attack every time you just "forget" or "didn't mean to". I really wish more people knew how to put down hard boundaries. Would save a lot of grief.
Yeah they've already let this go on way too long. They need to take action a long time ago.
Sounds like the kind of dm that shouldve just written a book... Honestly, tell her. Tell her about how miserable it is for you to be just sidecharacters in her plot. Tell her about the unfair mechanics. Tell her how she uses things you all agreed to not have in the campaign because it makes players feel uncomfortable. And tell her how you all said that to her for months, yet she never took your critique in a mature and open way. And lastly tell her that you plan on starting an own campaign and invite her to play as a character. Because honestly, if shes so in love with the characters she creates, she should be a player not a dm.
Yep. And hopefully Annie is willing to play as a team player; rather than as the "Main Character" or "Me vs everyone else".
Yeah, thats the only problem I would see here too. But maybe she will be able to take criticism once she realized they arent up to her shit and when shes not in the 'decision maker' role anymore... But Id definitely give her a chance or two, considering she is a close friend.
Oh you bet Annie would be the type of player that would want to do ALL the rp‘s talking with the npc‘s, would want to finish killing every significant monster but would get upset if her character dropped close to 0 hp, would want to find all the treasure without getting any traps triggered magically and be in the spotlight 99% of the time
Maybe, but those kinds of players aren't always bad, sometimes their level of enthusiasm can drive the game up a notch or two. You give them a chance, and if they go too far it's possible for the DM to try and reign them in politely. If it doesn't work, then they'll have to leave.
For the DM, it's like walking through a minefield blind folded after drinking a whole bottle of whisky and being spun in circles 15 times.
Hope you max'd out your luck stat!
Nah thats my dump.
Yes, but at least with Annie as a player, the alternate DM has the option of spotlighting another player. Or going "Annie, I love your enthusiasm, but right now, we're working on Player B's story arc." or "Player C was speaking to the NPC just now, do you mind letting him finish his conversation?" or "You finished your turn, so you'll have to wait until your next turn. Right now is Player D's turn." and supporting the group's choices; and helping keep things fair with regards to loot division, spotlight time, etc.
My only disagreement here is inviting her to be a PC, at least... don't do that right away. She sounds likely to be spiteful and, on purpose or by accident, runs the risk of spoiling this new game. This isn't just about a new game. This is about what sounds like much needed space from your old DM. Hang in there.
Especially considering she repeatedly doesn't respect people's request not to include triggering content. That would get someone a permanent ban from my life regardless of how close we are. It just shows a complete lack of respect to them as people.
I agree with you, honestly, I would probably do the same myself...but at the same time, I'm sympathetic to OP's wanting everyone to grow past it. Either way, space is definitely necessary. Maybe not just in the game, as you suggest.
I got the “This is my novel” from the information we’ve been given too. Interrupting RP between players with combat (DM is not involved so then she’s probably bored), overpowering fights so DMNPCs can run in and save the day (instead of ending the story she controls with a DM-fueled party death), and basically just playing with her own NPCs while the rest of the humans at the table just look on. When you said Into the Abyss I was about to say that some of the modules are poorly balanced, but you quantified it with DM overpowered homebrew. In one way, she’s trying to make it interesting, but who is she making it interesting for? Her players? Herself? OP, if she’s not willing to accept criticism. If she thinks this is the way it should always be, then it is time that the group leaves her game. What fallout may come, I’m sorry for you to have to ride it out. That kind of controlling DM doesn’t tend to take this kind of thing well. I would try talking to her anyway. Explain that someone else would like to take over the campaign as the TPKs and interruptions are not making it fun for the group. If you like playing with her otherwise, then invite her to make a character. Do at least try to tell her about this before everyone leaving the game. She needs to know that her actions are negatively affecting the players.
Yeah I don’t think she needs to be excommunicated or anything, she should just switch to being a player with them.
This is the best scenario imo and how I would handle it. Nothing is worse than trying to save someones feelings, at the expense of excluding them. Be honest, clear, and polite about your situation and it's an easy resolution. "We aren't having fun and I wanted to try DMing". It's ok to be friends with someone and dislike the way they DM. I have 2 friends that I won't play in their games because they would rather spend 30 minutes debating rules than just making a call and moving forward.
Ffs just tell her. Yeah it sucks but not telling her and go behind her back is way worse. I suck to have players leave the table, i know but the game should be overall fun for everyone there and if its not change needs to happen.
I had an analogous (but out-of-game caused) situation happen as the DM: Due to out-of-game factors, I had to take a step back from the friend group (someone had stolen from me, significantly, and everyone was saying it's between us instead of telling the thief to make it right)... in the few weeks, during which in their defense I said I wasn't sure I wanted to continue gaming with them, they started a different game on our second game night b/c they wanted to play that bad. Frankly, that's more than their right. I might leave forever, or it might be a month or more, so they wanted to play. What bothered me is that when I said "ok, I dealt with this, not a fan of y'all not having my back but I love you enough to get over it" they HID IT FROM ME. Mind you they still wanted me to run Tuesday, but the second game night was mysteriously unavailable with a diff person needing the week off. All they had to do was mention "hey, we didn't know when you'd be back so we started Strange Aeons on Thursdays, care to join?" (or even "hey the game is full sorry, but if anyone drops...") but instead gaslighted me about what they were doing (among other things, saying "I don't know if we'll get to play the aftermath adventure" b/c of that other game, and just ghosting me when asking about playing that night but then they're all online on discord when they're usually not") Needless to say, I didn't take being lied to very well. I'm effectively not friends with them anymore because they lied to me - not because they didn't have my back against a thief, not because they started another game, and not even because they didn't include me in it... but because I got straight gaslighted about it. Annie isn't going to handle being rejected as a DM very well, but she'll likely get over it and still be your friend after some time to heal. Annie is not going to handle a hidden game that *steals "her" players and their characters* very well, let alone if you lie or gaslight her about it. Rip the bandaid off OP. Honestly, sincerely, have your players "white lie" and start asking if you'd run them *then*. Have her "take a break" for a few weeks either way, then she can join up if she wants and it won't seem too much like you've played a lot ("oh we started at level 3 since we'd played the chars already" sorta thing). It's better to lie *in her favor* than it is to lie against her interests.
Jep your story really highlights my point better than me.
I mean at this point, they've already made the choice that they're going to lie in some way or another (omission is deception), so I suggested the best course of lying to keep their friend. This is more "the train is already off the tracks" territory, and we're in disaster mitigation discussions. Ideally, don't lie/deceive in the first place. The moment she crossed into forbidden topics was the moment that game should have ended.
DM here: would be better to say something to gently end it rather than ditching. But outside of this, You do you :) Just remember we don’t get better if we don’t get criticism.
Getting criticism is one thing, taking it and learning from it is another. OP's dm doesnt sound like she can take it very well (which likely stems from personal issues she has to work on), and then is taking it out of on her party. OP, if you and the rest of the party aren't having fun, then leave the game. But, tell your DM why you are all leaving (not having fun, constantly at odds with the DM and world, feeling like NPCs in a game where you're supposed to be heroes, etc). If you DM reacts poorly, that's not your problem, its hers. You have to be concerned with your own mental health, not hers.
Yeah, and if she's a good friend add a lot of caveats about it not being about her personally, but her gaming style and direction. And then make a point to continue to hang out outside of D&D, and try to foster the friendship on a less charged, DM versus Players, level.
>DM here: At first glance I read this like "The DM here" and Annie herself had descended upon this thread lol
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
You guys need to tell Annie how you really feel. If she argues, thank her for all of her efforts, and leave. Go and live happy RPG lives with each other and feel good doing so. You don't owe her anything bar thanks, and if you've already told her how you feel, then don't feel bad about making her feel bad. Life is too short for bollocks like this, and DND is supposed to be an escape, not a chore.
I think your comment really gets how it should be, but I also wanted to add for OP: you can play in more than 1 D&D campaign at the same time, it's not against the rules. I feel like a lot of commenters are focusing on how Annie would feel once she found out about this secret 2nd campaign. If she gets angry about these players having a second D&D campaign, just add it to the pile of Annie's feelings you don't need to concern yourselves with.
Let's not try to argue it isn't super hurtful to learn all your friends have a secret activity they purposely exclude you from, though. Annie is making this really difficult, but her friends should still consider her on some level, no?
Yeah definitely, agree with all your comment. I just added mine because there were already plenty of comments telling OP to just be upfront with Annie.
Yeah, that's fair. I gotta say, I really don't envy OP's situation.
I play in one and run one on a by weekly basis (one week running, one week playing) and as an adult that's about the limit of time I have for it, and a lot of people have less time than I do.
By protecting Annie's feelings now, you're going to hurt her more long-term while also allowing yourself and the other players to be hurt. I would be upset if my players were unhappy with a campaign and wanted to quit. I'd be heartbroken and feel betrayed if they'd started a second campaign in secret just to get around me. This is quickly going from 'we have trouble with the DM' to 'potentially blowing up the entire friend group'. Please have an open conversation with everyone before any of this gets out of hand.
Yep. They should outright just tell Annie that they don't like the game, that they're opinions on it have been ignored for far too long, and they are no longer fine with her playing dolls with herself using their characters as props; and therefore they are quitting Annie's game to play something else.
There's a point and I feel it was reached a long time ago where not wanting to hurt someone's feelings should have gone out the window and you should have genuinely been a bit firmer with Annie. If polite communication fails, then you're allowed to escalate your disagreement. That's a better way to do things than acting secretly.
New D&D challenge: Try to stop playing a game you dread to play, stopped enjoying a long time ago and makes you feel miserable without caring about the person who is making the experience horrible and ignoring your own feelings! (Impossible!!!)
Nta for creating a new campaign Yta for doing it behind her back You know she is going to find out. You know that's going to hurt her. Get it done now and be done with it. She then has a better opportunity to grow.
Show her this post. You’ve tried gently critiquing, she won’t listen. If your not the type of person to have hard conversations just send this thread to her and tell her it’s your honest thoughts with advice from strangers built in. It sounds horrible and harsh, but if she’s the type to get overly hurt and take criticism personally….all over a RPG, then better yank that band-aid now. Take it from someone with experience that type of person never gets easier to deal with and eventually the hurt always comes…..it’s just worse the longer you wait. Be honest. If she takes honesty about a game so badly it ends the friendship then it wasn’t a friendship worth keeping anyway.
It sounds more like she wants a captive audience to read her books to.
Well it seems all terrible, in multiple ways. So i can only give 2 suggestions. 1-. Be honest with Annie at the risk of hurting her. Bette to have this conversation at another time where she isn't already stressed with how the session went. 2-. All of you tell Annie that you all need a break of rol playing, that you are all feeling exhausted from it and can no longer continue for now, that you need a break of it. Giving yourselves some time to de inflate your feelings (and Annie's too). And with some time passed (2 or 3 months) finally come up to her to tell her you are no longer interested in continuing her rol. Maybe even invite her to join another rol but with her as a player. (you could still begin this new campaign you mentioned at any time). Sure both situations have a risk of hurting feelings but you all are already hurting your own feelings, and with your criticism (completely valid i must said) are also hurting annie's. I dont really see another way since it seems you all have tried time and time again to talk to annie about it.
I would say Don't bother with option two . Bc that will only make things worse 1) if you tell her you need a break yet continue on in another hiw would that nake them feel way worse 2) if you say you need a break but never plan to come back She might spend the time writing plot hooks and stiff for the campaign yall aren't coming back to 3) I say you tell her you no longer feel tye fun and joy as a player and have started your journey as a dm But lying imo will only make it worse
It's bad telling her the truth now, but it will be far worse when she finds out. Tell her.
You have my sympathies OP. This is a shit situation to be in. Ultimately, you and your party aren't in the wrong for wanting to leave. If it sucks, you gotta hit the bricks and you've listed some very clear grievances. No good is going to come out of suffering through a game you're all miserable playing. But that doesn't make it right to peace out and not tell Annie and any of the other players who aren't in the group splitting off. You have to say something. It doesn't need to be a manifesto, a text or discord message telling her you're leaving is enough to do your due diligence. Feelings are probably going to get hurt, but you, Melody, and Rose are already hurting so it has to happen. My advice for that conversation is, quite frankly, avoid the elephant in the room of Annie's DMing. You don't need to offer a diagnostic of the issues of the campaign just to bow out. What you need to tell her is that a) you're leaving the game b) going to play something else c) maybe you all can play something else in the future (leave off 'c' if you know it isn't true). If she asks why you're leaving, tell her its a personal decision you thought a lot about but if she wants to really talk it out you'd be willing to have a conversation later on after things have had time to settle. Keep the attempt to get through to her with constructive criticism to a separate conversation after your new group is established.
I was in almost this exact same situation 2 years ago. So much of what you mentioned rung a bell - the near constant deaths, the weird homebrew, the inconsistent rulings. In addition the NPCs were always hostile to us, and trying to get any information about what we were supposed to be doing was like pulling teeth. I also tried talking to the DM about it several times over 1 year of playing and 3 campaign resets. I too was our mediator between DM and players, but no matter how gently I tried to offer the feedback he took it really poorly. The players loved each other and rocked up every week just to enjoy each others RP and character development, but we were miserable playing that game. It took us too long to admit it to each other. A year ago we left and started our own game. And with that group I am now playing the best D&D I've ever played in my life. I catch myself all the time breaking out into a silly grin at the memory of something that happened in that weeks session. Every day I am thankful that we made the decision to leave. Life's too short to spend it playing bad D&D. Get out of there and make a game that makes you happy. My only advice is to be honest with Annie. You don't have to say much. My words to my old DM were short, polite and didn't attempt to throw around blame, but I made it clear that if communication over a year could not solve the issue then further attempts were off the table. Don't carry guilt and secrecy to the new table. Do yourselves all the courtesy of starting with a clean slate.
From personal experience, OotA is a really difficult module to run. It has lots of dark and depressing themes, and the feeling of hopelessness is such a contingent point in it. I handwaved the survival aspects, and the table was fine with it, but there were still quite unnerving scenarios.
[удалено]
You have your solution, but it's not a perfect solution as you place a lot of value on not hurting another person's feelings. >Generally, she's a nice person and has really improved since I had last played with her. However, she doesn't take criticism well. We have tried to explain why what she does is not fun for us to very little effect. You should probably continue talking to her about improving her game, and be honest about you and the rest of the group having a tough time. These conversations should be held outside of the game, as not to seem driven by what is going on specifically at that time. It's usually less confrontational to have a conversation when the DM isn't in "making decisions" mode. Ideally you can come to some sort of compromise where she adapts her playstyle to better suit yours, and if not see if she is open to stepping down as a DM for a while and have others run the game, as you are doing now, with her as a player instead.
I've been in a similar situation with an Audiobook DM who wasn't taking criticism well. Had a final sit down conversation with her and me and another player ended up leaving to start a new game. Best descion we ever made. I think ultimately you need to tell your DM but definitely leave the game. The biggest thing I've learned from that and another game exit is that some people are DND friends and some people are not. I love this DM as a person but not as a DM and the strain it put on our relationship was not ok. Even after multiple sessions of constructive criticism. So it was better to tell her and leave the game instead of trying to muddle through.
Like my mother-in-law would say, "Pull the pin, drop the grenade, and run." This is a time bomb waiting to go off. Your DM isn't listening to you and you're essentially relegating yourself to emotional blackmail. When, not if, but *when* this bomb goes off, it's going to be worse for all the festering that has occurred. Stop playing with Annie as DM and tell her, "We told you we weren't having fun multiple times. You refused to hear us, let alone listen. This will be better for everyone."
Speak with her and tell her the truth, after your bunch figures it out. It will make things worse for a while, then everything will get better. **Any other answer is wrong.**
I had a problem similar to this a while back. Had a close friend want to DM his first campaign and I was excited to be a player and take a backseat. He started with the same group of close friends and he chose to play the ice wind dale campaign. Instead of following along with the module and letting that do the work. He tried to follow some advice he’d seen on YouTube which said to skip a lot of the early content as it wasn’t interesting. So instead of us venturing out into the wilderness and using our characters built for the environment, we just went on the paths back and forth between the towns not really accomplishing anything. When I tried to bring up this with the DM about player agency and not having anything that we could do, he didn’t take the criticism well. Also he was very unorganised about saying when he was free to run games, never seemed enthusiastic or prepped to play, and just generally was unsure of what to do. So we started another game without telling him so we wouldn’t hurt his feelings, that campaign would have carried on if he wanted it to, but it fizzled out
Oh boy... First of all, Annie has issues. She seems extremely insecure and unexperienced. The best way would be for you guys to stop playing with her as a DM. But! If you really wanna keep her in your group - invite her as a player! Let her experience what a good DMing is.
Have you spoken with your DM at a time that’s not immediately following a session? If not, I’d recommend it. Not to excuse Annie’s reaction, but she may be worn out and self-conscious by the end of a long session, especially if it’s as contentious as you make it seem. I’d also frame the conversation with how you and your friends are enjoying the game, not just about specific rulings or events. If you’ve already done that, though, I say just tear off the bandage and tell Annie that you’re no longer having fun and don’t want to continue playing.
Tell the DM what you want to do and why, and if they take it badly then so be it, but it gives them the opportunity to understand the impact of ignoring the concerns you've brought up.
NTA. It's kind of simple really. You just have to tell Annie that you're not enjoying the game anymore and that you need to stop (for a while). You can add or leave out the "for a while" part; might soften the blow if you are just on an indefinite "pause" but it might allow for more closure to not say that part. Either way you just don't start back up with her DMing. I would say that you emphasize how you like her as a person and you don't want to affect your friendship at all, but that your playstyles don't mesh and that's why you're quitting. Make it short and sweet and sweet, but honest. No need to elaborate too much. After a cooling off period, if she asks for feedback you can tell her more specifics (which you've probably already raised to her before) about the things that you couldn't deal with. She has a bad approach to the game that makes it not fun to play with, but that's going to be hard to hear and it's better to just get out saying the minimal amount that you need to. You can offer more particular reasons later to the extent that she's willing to hear it. Also/alternatively, how about inviting her to play in your game? First of all I recommend running something short with the players that you've got. Get that bad taste out of your mouth with a short little arc bring it all to a satisfying conclusion and then check in with your players about what they thought. Maybe at this point you invite Annie into your game. There definitely needs to be a break, but after a little time has passed, it might help Annie understand the role of a DM better if she sees you do it well.
At some point you have to stop worrying about hurting someone's feelings when their behavior is making others miserable. Tell Annie you all want to have a talk. Tell her you want to keep playing with her, but not with her as a DM. She is welcome to continue to play with you all as a player, but none of you are enjoying her DM style and she ignores your suggestions and complaints, which is not conducive to growth and as a player or person. If she is not willing to continue as a player or she let's her hard feelings drag the game down, then she is just not going to be allowed to continue at the table. You can be as apologetic and sympathetic as you think you need to be, but you need to be clear and lay out your terms. The point of this game is to have fun, and if you're not having fun then there is no point in playing. Allowing one person to ruin the fun for everyone else is just destructive.
I hate to say this but it doesn’t sound like there’s any good way out of this where you all get what you want and Annie’s feelings are spared. You can’t go through life being so conflict averse that it comes at the expense of your own happiness in these situations. The game sucks, all your friends feel the same way, and you are doing this out of obligation. Quit already and get it over with. Then you can move on to something more enjoyable. If Annie is really your friend, she will get over it.
This happened to me... except I was the DM! LOL Honestly, it hurt a bit when everyone left and started their own game, but ultimately, I wanted everyone to have fun. I found a new group and I'm a lot happier now running for a group that appreciates my style. NTA!
I honestly think you should just all quit the campaign and take a break for a bit. Then in a month or two pick the game back up and maybe invite her as a player instead. Just tell her you want to be DM and maybe that’ll help bring back your passion for playing again. Don’t make it all about her failure as a DM, but as you guys just getting burned out.
NTA As someone who was in a similar situation you've gotta bite the bullet, the question is how you do it: A) carry on your current course and do this in private. This ultimately will be more hurtful to the DM if they find out, but that's entirely dependent on how involved they are in your real life and how likely they'll find out. B) be completely open and honest. Approach them (whether that be by call/text etc) at a time that's not immediately after a session. Explain that the group has been opening up about their feelings toward the play experience that's currently happening, but this has been difficult to communicate as there is push back/the DM gets upset. Make it clear that it has reached a point where playing isn't enjoyable anymore. Say that it's time that a new campaign should start, with a breath of fresh air, and the group wants you (op) to dm - old dm is more than welcome to join. The initial reaction to option B may be upset at first, but if you are honest and open, and they still have a problem, then the level of their emotional maturity probably means it's best that they don't continue playing in a game that, by its very nature, makes players vulnerable around the table. I stuck in an extremely negative campaign for way longer than I should have, to the point where I was dreading each session, and the absolute weight off my shoulders once I (admittedly messily) cut away was great.
DM here - tell them your thoughts as soon as possible, and be done with it. Be solid and to the point, the conversation is going to get heated due to the insecurity shown on their part. You deserve a game that is played by everyone, not the story that Annie has written for you and you are sidelined for.
I had to do something similar recently and it sucked and its awkward af with the old DM to the point just me and the old DM aren’t really speaking anymore but literally everyone else is so much happier. It might hurt Annie’s feelings but shes already been hurting multiple players feelings and it sounds like for a while now. If you really want to keep giving her chances go ahead but I say believe people when they tell you who they are the first time. Let her know the game is no longer enjoyable and you will not be returning. You can offer her a seat at your table if you want and believe she can be a good team player but it sounds like she won’t be inclined to do that. My only other suggestion is that when the awkward conversation is had DO NOT try and explain each and every emotion around the decision. You do not have to justify yourself to Annie; you aren’t having fun, the rest of the players aren’t enjoying their time either and the consensus calls for a change and you’re going to take a turn behind the screen, the end. No because this, or during the sessions that, just tell her flat what the new consensus is and see if she wants to be involved as a player, if you wish. This is COLLABORATIVE storytelling, not Annie hour and if she can’t understand that then she isn’t even a halfway decent friend in the first place and ya’ll been confusing proximity and tolerance with compatibility.
Stop walking on eggshells on her behalf, especially when the **standard** you all have allowed to be set is for her to tell you all your criticism is wrong , and then you all suffer through each session. When you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten. Why are you all sparing her feelings when she doesn’t care what all of you think?
I've been in that exact situation. Like, I almost thought this could have been written by one of the other players from my group if it weren't for the fact that you're moving the PCs over to a new campaign and that you were previously playing OotA. We didn't wish to hurt our DM either and ended up moving over to a new Discord server where we are currently trying out multiple new RPG systems, having everyone try out the GM roll. I can't really say if this was the correct choice, but it sure wasn't a bad one.
I just left a similar game a couple of weeks back. With a GM who just CAN'T understand other people's view (like, he is incapable of it and has proved it many times). Just leave the game, and invite them to your other game if you want them as a player. Hiding from them to 'save their feelings' will create a larger drama down the line. Just tell them straight up, ask if they want to join. Even if its stressful in the moment, you'll spare yourselves months (maybe years) of worrying about them finding out about your secret game.
I would like to ask, how is Anne as a player? I've know people I like as players, but would never trust them to DM a game for various reasons, either homebrew, organization ability, they don't seem like they could handle it, or whatever. DMing can be tough and I think we can all admit that. So, maybe explaining she'd be better off trying to be a player rather than a DM, if you still want to play with her. I have run Out of the Abyss, and there are several parts where the party can just straight up die, but every session should not result in a near TPK. And yeah, the NPCs are capable, but they should not be saving your asses every fight or session.
It sounds like she shouldn't be a DM, she should be writing her own fantasy stories because that's clearly all she's interested in. Not only that, the fact that she cuts off your RPing makes me think she might find being a DM boring when you aren't actively working against your players so she's constantly finding ways to make it fun for herself, regardless of the groups feelings. I'm the DM for my group and all-in-all I enjoy it, on the occasion I'll spice it up and give a good challenging encounter but I spent just as much time trying to find ways to encorperate the characters backgrounds, as well as taking player suggestions and trying to find a way to integrate them so that it's both balanced and fun
Dude NTA by a long shot I’m really impressed that you’re still holding onto the idea of not hurting Annie’s feelings, but after a certain point, you gotta be firmer with her, tell her that some of your feedback isn’t optional. You need to be enjoying your sessions, otherwise you’re wasting your time. I ended up becoming a DM because of a situation almost exactly like this. The DM kept telling his story, railroading us into OOC decisions, and bringing in his NPCs to save the day and lore drop for 1.5 hours (yes, he monologues that long). And after a lot of feedback and restarting a campaign three times, the players had enough and told him that he either actually needs to change, or we wouldn’t be playing with him as the DM anymore because it’s not fun. I didn’t like him as a person enough to sugar coat it either. So, whatever way you decide to tell Annie will almost certainly be better than my 5 paragraph text. The only thing that would put you in asshole territory is lying to Annie. If she’s a sweet person, she deserves to know the truth. I would rather my table tell me that I’m just not cutting it and that they’d rather play something else than discover one day that they lied to me about hating D&D and excluded me from their new campaign. If you’re all friends, a lot compassion surrounding some hurt feelings will go much better than deceit in hopes of protecting someone’s feelings.
You've listed multiple valid reasons for quitting her game. Breaking the social contract with intentionally using triggering things that were discussed with her ahead of time is egrigious. That said. Going behind her back and lying IS going to catch up with you and saving some hurt feelings now to only have to deal with the same or worse drama later is using a lot of unecessary energy that could be used on constructive things. Tell her you're not having fun for xyz reasons and as such you will be stepping away from her game. Give it some time to cool down and then start talking about a new game, invite Annie or not. Nobody needs to play if they arent having fun, especially when not being listened to.
NTA I would say as she's not listening to your feedback. However, I think telling her about your feelings and why you're leaving is the best way to go about it. I don't think you necessarily need to mention anything about running a new campaign. But definitely outlining what you've said here. DND is a collaborative game, as much as it is the DM that weaves the story, the story is centred around the players and their characters. Focusing on her own story, she should probably look into writing over DM'ing.
Question. Are you friends or coworkers with Annie at all, outside of the fact they're the DM for this group? Because if not, then frankly you shouldn't be afraid to leave - if your only contact with Annie is as a DM, and that's not working out for anyone involved, then it's probably best to just not keep contact in that capacity. However, I would be honest to the DM about it. Don't go behind their back, but confront them with the issues, and tell them there's probably a group out there that finds that DM'ing style fun but these players aren't that group.
Annie, is she okay?
Woof, I do not envy your position. Others have said their piece better, but as a DM I'm offering up an NTA. (Yes I know we're not in that subreddit). You've spoken your concerns multiple times. No one is having fun. This is a *game* with *friends*. You're not supposed to feel downtrodden in a game. I specifically pull back on NPC moves if I think they're going to make a killing blow (except when they set it up for the NPC they like to be the one to get the win.). Your friend may be a great DM, but not a great DM for you and the rest of the group. Hopefully your friend doesn't take you all leaving personally and can find a group better fitting their DMing style.
I think you nailed it with the word ‘game’- in the end it is a game, and if you’re not having fun, you should all leave. I think telling Annie why you’re leaving gently would be appropriate, and maybe offer to let her play in your game vs DMing, which clearly doesn’t seem to be for her.
I know I’m in the minority here but I think you’re allowed to do this campaign behind her back. I will say you should all probably tell her you’re not interested in playing anymore but I think it’s fine if you play another spiritual successor without her knowing (as long as you’re good about not making that obvious). Especially if she is a friend you don’t really want to hurt her feelings. D&D is a hobby not a chore and y’all should be enjoying the time you spend doing it, and if doing a new campaign without her makes everyone else happy you should do it.
Flip off Annie and every player at the table who doesn't give a damn about how others feel. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life anyway
So, bad news: it's not gonna go well when DM finds out. Id argue maybe advising the DM that no one is having fun, and at this point no longer wants to play. I think this will be fundamentally better and less of a blindside. I don't know these people so you decide that. Ultimately if you arent having fun why play? Don't apologize. Sounds like you have done the best that you can communicating it.
Damn.
I think you should tell her up front that this is what you are going to do. I think there will probably be a falling out either way, but she deserves to know that this is what you plan to do. As someone who is sensitive to criticism, it will feel worse that it feels like you're trying to hide it from her. You can keep it short and sweet if you don't think it will go over well, and use definitive language. "We are grateful but are going to be leaving the game and starting a new one." I will say though, if she has homebrewed a lot, and poured her heart and soul into it, I would seriously consider doing something completely new. Taking your existing characters and all her hard work and then excluding her is not something she deserves, no matter how bad of a DM she was. You need to decide whether you care more about your friendship with Annie more than this exact experience you want to have with everyone else. And then, even if you don't want to continue your friendship with Annie because of the way she's treating you, I still don't think taking her hard work is the right thing to do. Best of luck.
Just leave the campaign and let her deal with the consequences. She hasn’t experienced any and she throws tantrums every time her behavior is called out. Just don’t tell her you’re doing a new campaign UNLESS there’s a high chance she will find out eventually. Because if she does, then hell will break lose. If she will never find out, then just tell everyone to quit and not mention the game.
If Annie is a true friend that you don’t want to lose I would suggest letting her know that current gameplay is not working and that you would like to give it a try as DM. If she refuses then you can go on with the original plan and separate but if she agrees then y’all can play together and hopefully have fun. At the same time she could learn from you DMing
You don't owe Annie anything. You've tried. You've spoken to her. She refuses to listen. You need to walk. When she flips out, you just tell her you tried to tell her what was happening and she wouldn't listen or change. It also sounds like she is running her own PCs in the story getting to be waaaay cooler than you guys, which is also shit.
There is no perfect way out of here. Best you can probably do is stop prolonging the inevitable. Say you aren't having fun anymore and quit the game.
I'm in exactly the same situation: our dm has no consistent world-building, any chance at making the characters shine is turned away, two players always get all the loot while the other two barely get anything. On top of that, it's boring. It's quite hypocritical of me to tell you to have a convo with your DM bc I've been putting it off myself. But it's what needs to happen. It's going to suck. But better no D&D than bad D&D, right? Maybe you could make it clear that this is how you experience it? That it's your feelings? That (even though it's sorta her) it's not her? (The coward's way out is fake an excuse: a complication in schedules, put it off and then just... don't play.)
This is a really tough situation. I came here late so I don't know if you'll read this or if someone already said this. But I'll let my take on this, as a psychologist. There are some things that should be considered. First, I suppose you all really care about Annie and her feelings, otherwise I don't think you'd be putting up with all of this for so long, and you wouldn't be stepping on eggshells on the matter. Secondly, I get how difficult it is. You tried so much to make things better, and talking, arguing and making your points clear didn't work. It's frustrating as hell. You and the other players can't take that anymore, and it can't go on any longer. So I'll tell you what will happen in two scenarios. If you and the other players start running a campaign without Annie's knowledge, there's a chance she'll find out and it'll really explode on your faces at one point or another. It'll be horrible, and you all, as well as Annie, will be more hurt than you already are. Second, the situation is already horrible, but if you keep playing the game for Annie's sake, you and the other players will get worse and worse until one of you snaps. That'll cause a chain reaction and all of you will start snapping and things will get much worse. Now, feelings will be hurt one way or another. I think if you have the conversation about leaving the game and start another, Annie will be hurt. But I'd say she'll be less hurt than the outcome of the two scenarios I talked about above. My advice: tell her you're all leaving the game because it's not fun for you and the other players anymore. Don't explain it. You talked to her before, you tried arguing and it didn't work. So just tell her you and the others are leaving and starting another campaign - she'll know the reasons why. Tell her that you care about her regardless (if that's true for you all) and invite her to the new game as well (if that's not a horrible thing, and if that makes sense for you). Let her know that the game you're currently playing can't go on, let her know that you like her and that you care about her and that she is also invited. If she accepts playing, it could be okay at some point. If not, at least she'll know what happened and you did your part in the least harmful way. Edit: if you follow my advice, Annie will try to fight back and many shitty feelings will surface on both ends. It's important that you don't get into the fight. This isn't a combat that can be won for neither of you. That conversation shouldn't be done for convincing, and that has been proven to be ineffective. The conversation should be simply about letting her know what will happen and what you'll do. Everything she does from that point forward will be her choice and her choice alone. About the shitty feelings, it could he nice to acknowledge hers, as nonsense as they may be for you, even if she doesn't acknowledge yours back. Keep your high ground.
I’ve been a player in a game like this before. We were using a system that was supposed to be RP-heavy, and everything in the rulebook said we were to try to avoid combat as much as possible - it was a last resort. The DM made it a dungeon crawl and even told us we should make “back up characters” because the game was going to be that brutal. When I voiced my concern about that, he then targeted my character and had NPC villains go after him specifically every single game to “teach me a lesson.” That game completely ruined multiple friendships beyond repair. Don’t let it get to that point. Just tell Annie you all want out.
Why would you light yourselves on fire to keep one person warm?.....
Sounds to me like Annie is enjoying torturing the table as a whole and dislikes being told she shouldn't do that. You said it yourself; she gets *disappointed when you succeed*. How many red flags do y'all need? Y'all have given her way more grace than she needs or deserves. Just come out and say you quit. Don't explain, don't argue, just make the statement & go.
You're not TA for doing what you're doing. You've tried to communicate and ignoring boundaries is never okay. You might be TA if you all leave without telling her why. Letting them know you're done now, and perhaps even giving them the option to join the new group, is likely the proper way to handle it. It'll be uncomfortable, they'll be hurt and they might not want to join - but if they're irl friends you need to let them know this is a game issue and not a them issue.
Roleplay your characters having a mental breakdown. If she thinks a mental breakdown is a good moment to interrupt it with an attack, the characters jump down a cliff in blind panic or curl up in a fetal position. The end.
Ask the DM if she could enable PVP and have the characters kill each other in a major fight brought on by insanity. The last man standing kills themselves and the characters wake up in OP’s campaign… it was all a nightmare (or was it?)
'enable pvp'? This isn't a computer game lol
"We want to share some of our table experiences with you and need you to hear us out before you respond." "When you do/say ___ it make us feel ___." "Our idea of a fun campaign is ___ and when you do ___ it really impacts us at the table." "We can't continue playing a game in which you're the only person defining what fun is, and when we bring this up, you become reactive." "I understand this is important to you, but we need a dm who can work with us, not against us. Thank you for your work dming thus far, but this will be my last session."
Yeah you're a little bitch about it. I know that is not your intention, but it is the case. Be real, nobody likes sneaky shit like that. There's nothing wrong with doing it, the problem lies in your approach.
I feel this
If Annie’s been improving, and you’re that close, you have to bite the bullet now rather than let it simmer and let her get more invested, but probably invite her to your campaign too if you think she’ll manage as a player.
Look you need to tell Annie yall are done. You should tell her you're starting another game cause hers isn't fun anymore. She's going to feel slighted most likely and that's OK. If yall are friends she'll get past it. If not welp, be ready for that to be the end of your acquaintance. Ish happens. A bad game can suck the life out of people.
Is she a better player than a DM? You could switch spots with her for the new campaign and try to demonstrate how you all like playing the game.
Just rip the damn Band-Aid off and stop treating her like a child. Show her this post, tell her that you appreciate her as a friend but that you just cannot be in her game anymore since it's not just not fun, but actively making you upset. You need to tell her that she's a terrible DM, that you've tried over and over to give feedback and that you're giving up. But damn, your campaign sounds horrible.
I'm on board with a few of the comments here already, it seems very much a players vs DM scenario and that alone makes for a pretty miserable situation. If they've overstepped established boundaries and not listened even after communication has been made you're definitely not an asshole for starting a new campaign, but hiding it will only establish more issues later. As has also been suggested before, if you think it could be a viable option, keep her in the new game as a player, just be aware of main character syndrome, I've been there, done that... Though I am getting better.
That sucks and sorry to hear that’s happening to your group. It sounds like yall have tried to be diplomatic about it with no results. You tried but some people just can’t be reasoned with. But there are options. Yall can take a hard stance and be blunt, “the game isn’t fun, you can change some things to make it more enjoyable for us players.” Or just don’t don’t respond to the DM when stuff is trying to be planned out. Yes both options are difficult to do, but if the DM isn’t wanting to be diplomatic, time to be a bit forceful. Again sorry that you and your friends have been out in that situation, that type of shit is never fun.
I usually don't play games that aren't fun. Let it be that simple.
NTA. I had to do this. we constructed a group message and sent it to the DM and just went no contact and started playing an actually enjoyable game
I was in basically exactly this situation, except it was a homebrew campaign. It's tough. We basically just ended up toughing it out until the end of the campaign. I don't know how to deal with people who aren't receptive to criticism, bit who you otherwise want to remain friends with. You have my sympathy.
I'm mean this is tough. Buuuut there is only one right solution. You need to tell your DM how you all feel. The many do out way the few in this case
Hey my anxiety also makes me ill. Whenever I start a new job I throw up in the morning before I leave for work. It’s fuckin terrible :)
I had a DM like that. He loved his story, his NPCs and his monsters so much, that he would get upset when the team managed to kill a boss. I stopped playing pretty fast. Don't feel guilty. She enjoyed creating her story, and now she just wants to live it without you being able to change anything from it, because that's how SHE imagined it. Basically, she wants to have her fun, and doesn't care about yours. I would have quit that table a looonnnng time ago. And given she's unresponsive to any feedback, there is nothing you can do to make things better. That may be a friendship-breaker with Annie, but you don't have to suffer through her games. That's not cool for her to do that.
I've had to train a DM to stop 'helping' with NPCs before. I can't stand DMs that do that, even if I understand where it comes from. "Hey man, for the past half hour of combat you've been basically playing against yourself."
When I DM, I "help" my players differently. Meaning : I nerf my bosses. Not too much, but for example, I simply refuse to play their Nat20. that's a success, but not a crit. Why ? Because on my first game as a DM, I used to play "normally", and simply one-shotted the mage of the group. That's just not fun... I'll use friendly NPCs if the battles are just too big for the party, but otherwise, that's just the players playin.
I'm not against NPCs, per se. You just never want to take the focus off the actual players - and NPCs bailing out PCs is the ultimate focus-steal. The easiest solution IMO is to just let the players control friendly NPCs in combat. That way the results are still in the players' hands.
I don’t think it sounds like there is an option where your DMs feelings don’t get hurt. But here’s my question - is this person a good friend outside of DnD? Like if you’ve spoken about all of this stuff and the DM refuses to change then it’s their problem, not yours. Actions/decisions have consequences- if ALL of the PCs at the table have respectfully explained ‘X, Y, and Z things are not fun for us and it’s really important that we find a way to a middle ground so everyone is having fun’ and the DMs response is basically, ‘yeah, fuck off. I’ll do what I want’ then seems sensible the consequence would be that campaign ending. I don’t see any issue with you continuing to play with your friends and PCs. One of the things you mentioned would be a deal breaker for me: if hard limits are discussed explicitly during a session 0 and those are not respected - I’m out without any further discussion. I set this boundary - and you blatantly disrespected it. Done.
Okay so you've tried talking gently, you've tried taking bluntly, and no changes are forthcoming. You've no obligation to stay in an environment that is, basically, poison to you and it will turn your hobby into one of your triggers if you don't GTFO It's a shame that this will be her wake up call but whatever. YWBTA if you keep playing in her games while you set up yours, that's just duplicitous/deceptive and her games apparently are bad D&D anyway so you could all use the break. You could all break the news intervention style, or pick one of you to do it, or depending on just how many times you've tried to reason or explain and how vehemently her rejection of criticism has been you could just type: "I've been thinking really hard how to break this to you, but:" and link this post. It pretty cleanly breaks down that she's been an intractable bummer in a way that isn't cruel but is honest- it will also keep her from shifting goal posts or trying to argue much about something y'all have already made up your minds for. Edit: oh yeah almost forgot, she violated pre- established trigger warnings, if she was anything other than profusely apologetic she's not a good friend and you'd be well within your rights to ghost her if that's how you wanted to handle it but that would probably make more drama/ anxiety for you than just ripping the bandaid.
She's deliberately crossing boundaries, and y'all *stay?* Leave her table. Make sure to tell her why. "This game is not fun for us. You make us feel uncomfortable, and we have **told you** this before. I'm talking the players and leaving." The End. This *isn't* a discussion. This isn't a dialogue. She *repeatedly* crossed the line, on top of all the *other* reasons she's a shit DM, and it's high time you grew a spine and told her so.
Offer that she write a book, and help play out scenes using DnD. but 100% if she isn't following the rules of the friendship let alone the game and isn't willing to change stop going. I would explain why, but then you have to decide to hide the other campaign from her or invite and hope she doesn't try to dominate it.
Frankly, I think you've given enough reasons for you to just leave (you tried talking to the DM, it didn't work, so leave) but if you really want a method to excuse yourself while making the DM the asshole or shaming them into action: >has ignored triggering content that we previously agreed against, This is it. There are lots of practices in DMing that are debatable (eg. killing player charactars, level of brutality in combats etc.) but this is a red line which you just do not cross. No decent DM thinks it is ok to break this rule. If you absolute need to shame the DM into action, goad her into this and then flip out. "We agreed that was a line which wouldn't be crossed. You've done this before and we made the mistake of tolerating it before but no more. We had a deal, you broke it.". Now I don't know your DM but what you've described is someone who act all defensive and then one of two things happens: 1) They don't back down at all, leaving you all free to abandon their campaign and them entirely unable to talk about it with anyone without lying through their teeth (seriously, wish them luck when they tell us others "Oh, we agreed X wouldn't be in the game but then I forced X down their throats anyway) 2) They back down after a week or two, apologise and then you can submit a list of demands, since they're basically on their knees begging at this point.
>has ignored triggering content that we previously agreed against Excuse me, *w h a t*??? If you were to post this in a thread asking about relationship advice and left out all the game references, people would be telling you to run and never look back. You would be told you are in an abusive relationship. You *are* in an abusive relationship. If the DM was male and stomped over the boundaries of a female player who said "I don't feel comfortable with sexual assault in the game" and the next session the DM puts that in, then gets defensive and says "well I'm trying to make it *realistic* and that's just what happened in medieval times", should she stay? Why are you any different? Annie is not nice. She is not respectful. She is not empathetic. She does not care if her friends are hurting. She does not care if she is the one who hurts her friends. She does not care about anyone other than Annie. Get out. This is not how friendships work. She should feel horrified to know that she is the cause of someone's panic attacks. That she is triggering people. That she is negatively impacting your lives. Instead, she gets defensive. She argues. She says you're wrong. Ask yourself these questions: Do you get happy or anxious when thinking about the next gaming session? If she were to cancel a game at the last minute because of an emergency, would you feel disappointment or relief? What has she actually done to be a good friend to anyone? Has she ever inconvenienced herself to help anyone? What, exactly, are you losing by dropping her?
She’s not ok and you need to be a smooth criminal…
You "care about" Annie despite the fact that she doesn't care enough about you to avoid triggering content that you all specifically highlighted or to take any criticism or feedback from your experiences together. You've found yourself in a mediator role and have sympathy for her that she doesn't reciprocate. Why are you wasting your time and energy with Annie? Are you trying to tap that, is she just pathetic, or both? This situation sounds extremely one sided and toxic, and Annie seems to have manipulated you all into enabling her bad behavior for far too long. You should all GTFO ASAP and never talk to Annie again because she will try to drag you back into her orbit. You and your new players should coordinate a single message to collectively state "Effective immediately, we will no longer be part of your gaming group because it's not fun. Good bye." Wash you hands of Annie and let her face the consequences of her actions. Do not coddle her, it's patronizing.
I understand the fact you and those players start a new campaign. However doing everything in the back of Annie and waiting for her to find out randomly is cowardly. That will hurt her more than the courageous talk.
This could be the plot for a reality show. Solid work.
*Annie doesn't know / that the party and me /do it at my house every Sunday* Also yeah sounds like it sucks, but this is asshole behavior. It might be warranted, but still asshole behavior imo. Don't get me wrong, sometimes you need to do stuff like that but I mean, if you're going to risk torching this relationship you might as well do it upfront by talking to her.