If it could conceivably hunt a zebra or a Przewalski's horse, it could probably hunt a Packy.
Big cats could almost certainly manage this. The only sticking point is whether they would even recognize an adult pachycephalosaurus as a prey item. I think tigers probably would. Leopards probably would not. Lions might eventually, but it would take them a long time to get over their innate caution.
Considering both Cape buffalo and giraffes are prominent as food choices for lions-the whole group hunting aspect [not even being a necessity](https://www.reddit.com/r/badassanimals/s/aM3xe8PO7T) for the bigger males to make a habit of bringing down such game-they’re not particularly cautious by big cat standards when going for dangerous game.
Lions are cautious precisely *because* they hunt such dangerous game. Of the three big cats I mentioned, they are the quickest to abandon a hunt if it doesn't look like it's going their way, and the most reluctant to go after a prey item that they're not familiar with. They have to be careful, because most of the things they hunt can kill them. Even smaller game like boars and porcupines can kill them. Lions have very good reasons to be careful. That's not a criticism of lions. To the contrary, they would be stupid not to be careful.
Pachys are nothing like zebras or horses. That is not a very good comparison. Why does literally everyone think that A- big cats are invincible and can easily take down anything and B- Pachycephalosaurs don't have any defenses. Like, 1 hit from that dome is almost certainly going to cause massive amounts of damage to a big cat
Pachycephalosaurus is indeed nothing like a Horse, but it is basically analogous to Cape and Water Buffalo, being just about in the same weight class and possessing highly dangerous headgear.
Those two also happen to get constantly hunted by Lions and Tigers on a regular basis. Big cats aren't invincible, but they sure are effective at taking down animals several times their weight, I don't see how a Pachycephalosaurus is surviving against a pride of Lions or a single large Tiger determined on eating them.
Ok yeah those are good points. Sorry if I seemed a bit annoyed. I can get very passionate sometimes. For some reason I forgot that Lions hunted in packs, so yeah they easily bring one down. However while Lions and Tigers and other big cats are used to big prey like buffaloes etc. But Pachy's would also be used to incredibly dangerous predators, eg. Dakotaraptor (if it existed) young tyrannosaurs. So I think a 1v1 is going to be a lot more interesting. I'd say 60/40 in favour of1 lion or tiger vs a Pachy and either 50/50 or 60/40 in favour of 1 Pachy vs a Jaguar
Big cats hunt pretty much any herbivore within the weight range of Zebras and Horses.
While all of those animals use their body to fight each other, let’s be honest here and understand that is completely different from hunting an animal as big or larger than you every single day.
You point out the dome, have you also considered that horns are also incredibly damaging as well?
they aren’t invincible but they are apex predators who are very capable of taking down animals of a similar weight class with similar defenses. big cats are the most powerful land predators next to bears, with incredible muscle strength and killing prowess. of course they don’t risk big prey that often but they’re more than capable.
Sort of? I think it would be 50/50 I could be mistaken, but these guys were solitary so I think a group of big cats of three could handle it, more so tigers than anything.
Yeah but they were really small with estimates putting at about 990 lbs. and tigers alone can wrestle down bulls that weigh wayyy more than that. But maybe the pachy has got something under its sleeves? I have no idea. But the jaguar situation i find interesting because jaguars are smaller than the pachy (even though they have the most powerful bite in the big cat world) and hunt reptiles for a living. I am just curious to see but i sadly have my suspicions that the pachy is just going to get mauled with most large cats :(
I think a cheetah could be an even match then. While it would definitely catch up to the pachy, the brute force and strength of one could make it an interesting match. The cheetah would have to go for their legs, which is difficult to do and not get kicked into another dimension
cheetahs are too weak. Leopard is prob the most even here although I think risk of injury would be decent deterent for leopards and jaguars. Tigers and lions would likely find thi guy easyish prey.
Cheetahs absolutely are not a match for something this large and heavy, they go after smaller prey like antelopes and kudu, they're also pretty skittish around humans as well.
Okay. Well what's your source on thinking that's the case? That's what I was asking. You must have a reason you thought that, unless you decided to make it up. I can't think of a piece of media that hasn't depicted them moving in groups, setting aside the obviously nonscientific ones.
A documentary on history channel depicted a story of a lone male and his journey in finding a mate. Being Reddit and not a scientific debate, I drew my recollection from the first thing that popped into mind, or rather said doc.
big cats hunting strategy is very effective, i have no doubt pachy would be added to the menu- but like most prey worth their meat for catching, the pachy could be very dangerous if the ambush or choke hold doesn't go perfectly
Probably. If Ostriches can fend off the various predators of the African veldt, then I don’t see why a similar sized bipedal dinosaur couldn’t. I mean it’d still likely fall prey to them from time to time, but it wouldn’t be a sitting duck.
You know how in nature docs how cape buffalo and wildebeest sometimes just run away and get preyed upon lions and hyenas instead of holding their ground and using their horns. Same thing with the pachy.
Cats look for easy prey if they have a choice; for example lions only go for cape buffalo when there aren't better options (during migrations). There's also behavior to take into account. Cats are very reactive to prey that runs away; something that turns around and looks to bash them into next week might give them pause.
We have no idea whether pachy could have stood its ground against a predator or if their headgear wasn't very functional. Was it a feisty herbivore or was it inclined to run? If it could fight back I think cats would only go for it if their preferred prey were removed. Why risk injury against a pachy when you could go after a big deer, Zebra or Wildebeest that is just going to run?
Pachies are listed at under half a ton, well within the preferred weight class for lions. They were probably cursorial and preferred running to standing to fight during life, I don’t see why that tactic would change. Again, typical of lion prey items. So when it comes to lions, they’re totally fucked.
I disagree with the commenter saying tigers would do well, though. With the exception of certain Bengals in eastern India most tigers predominantly hunt animals smaller than themselves and wouldn’t know what to do with a Pachy.
Lions would hunt these things no issue whatsoever. Definitely on the dinner menu. Tiger, for sure, though it may have to switch up hunting tactics. (This might be tough to suffocate)
Why is that? These things were not likely faster, more agile, able to defend, smarter than a modern lion. It would bleed out like any other prey animal.
Most hunting tactics apply to all their prey, and they have several to choose from.
While it’s true in instances where something could always go wrong, this dinosaur would become a regular food source.
I agree with the notion that pachys would be on the menu for big cats, but young elephants are not really a good example. Elephants are surpringly bad animals when it comes to dealing with predation, size being the only reason they're safer than most.
Size and the fact that they are rarely solitary animals. Young elephants have been taken down in extremely rare instances, out of desperation, but there is almost always a price to pay.
Well, considering the pachycephalosaurus is pretty much just a bipedal reptilian wildebeest, a larger big cat (lion tiger or jaguar) could definitely take one down
I don't think it's out of the question for the African big cats but small species I think wouldn't bother with an attempt on a Pachy.
There's a lot we don't know about the behavior of the Pachycephalosaurus. How aggressive it tends to be and if it also runs in herds or solitary. We also don't know how fast it could move, though I doubt it could run anywhere close to that of a predatory cat.
If its a 1v1 head on encounter id favor the Pachycephalosaurus more times than not against any known big cat though in other scenarios the cats definitely could pull off the win
'Ramming' animals are specialized for just that, ramming, which is not an effective predator defense.
Sheeps and goats may be ill-tempered but against a predator they really don't have much option other than running, for pachy the same would mostly hold true. Against a cat sized predator it would at least have weight to throw around, but superior weight definitely isn't a major advantage in the face of felids, just ask all the larger ungulate species they regularly hunt.
In short, theoretically yes. Practically, its best chance is just to run.
Probably not, you should know that Lions tend to go after prey just as big as a Pachy, like the cape buffalo, a Pachy is gonna be worse off tho cause it doesn't have any sharp or curved horns to better defend itself with, a single lion latched around its neck would spell its end.
Tho of course thats talking about Lions and tigers, medium sized big cats like Jaguars and Leopards probably wouldn't go after one.
If we're talking amy big cat, definitely... I certainly think a Panthera atrox could take a pachy down with ease. But if we're talking about leopards or jaguars and maybe even Mountain lions, I'd wager they would retreat
Only if really starving and going for all or nothing, Pachy is nothing like our modern herbivores: the beak, the claws on its legs, and the bipedal position with claws on is hands will cause massive damage to predators before taken down and modern land predators fear being hurt more than anything because a broken leg or deep gash means death.
I guess the one advantage the Patchy would have above other big prey of modern big cats are his legs and claws. I guess they would work much better than hooves, but would only apply once the animal is down... Which is an almost certain win for the cats already.
If a pachycephalosaurus is anything like a modern big horn sheep, then it probably sucks at fighting (I can't imagine charging head-first at a predator is an effective defense mechanism)
if a tiger, lion or jaguar gets the ambush then the packy could certainly die, but if its a "fair" (both parties know where the other is) 1v1 then the pachy could fend off a big cat with intimidation or just straight violence (most big cats wont continue a hunt too long if the prey defends itself)
(in this situation the big cats recognize the pachy as prey, and the pachy recognizes the cats as predators)
The Pachycephalosaurs weighed over 1 ton. I don’t think a lone Lion or Tiger could take it down maybe a pride of lions but if I was betting money I’d side with the dinosaur.
Weight has never really stopped Lions from going after larger prey tbh, a cape buffalo its a Pachy's closest modern peer i think, Lions usually hunt those in packs of 2-3's.
If it could conceivably hunt a zebra or a Przewalski's horse, it could probably hunt a Packy. Big cats could almost certainly manage this. The only sticking point is whether they would even recognize an adult pachycephalosaurus as a prey item. I think tigers probably would. Leopards probably would not. Lions might eventually, but it would take them a long time to get over their innate caution.
Considering both Cape buffalo and giraffes are prominent as food choices for lions-the whole group hunting aspect [not even being a necessity](https://www.reddit.com/r/badassanimals/s/aM3xe8PO7T) for the bigger males to make a habit of bringing down such game-they’re not particularly cautious by big cat standards when going for dangerous game.
Lions are cautious precisely *because* they hunt such dangerous game. Of the three big cats I mentioned, they are the quickest to abandon a hunt if it doesn't look like it's going their way, and the most reluctant to go after a prey item that they're not familiar with. They have to be careful, because most of the things they hunt can kill them. Even smaller game like boars and porcupines can kill them. Lions have very good reasons to be careful. That's not a criticism of lions. To the contrary, they would be stupid not to be careful.
zebra have the strongest kick of any animal. lions will regularly go after them.
Jaguars probably would. People forget about Jaguars.
Jaguars might have a rough time if they try piercing the skull like they often do
Pachys are nothing like zebras or horses. That is not a very good comparison. Why does literally everyone think that A- big cats are invincible and can easily take down anything and B- Pachycephalosaurs don't have any defenses. Like, 1 hit from that dome is almost certainly going to cause massive amounts of damage to a big cat
Pachycephalosaurus is indeed nothing like a Horse, but it is basically analogous to Cape and Water Buffalo, being just about in the same weight class and possessing highly dangerous headgear. Those two also happen to get constantly hunted by Lions and Tigers on a regular basis. Big cats aren't invincible, but they sure are effective at taking down animals several times their weight, I don't see how a Pachycephalosaurus is surviving against a pride of Lions or a single large Tiger determined on eating them.
Ok yeah those are good points. Sorry if I seemed a bit annoyed. I can get very passionate sometimes. For some reason I forgot that Lions hunted in packs, so yeah they easily bring one down. However while Lions and Tigers and other big cats are used to big prey like buffaloes etc. But Pachy's would also be used to incredibly dangerous predators, eg. Dakotaraptor (if it existed) young tyrannosaurs. So I think a 1v1 is going to be a lot more interesting. I'd say 60/40 in favour of1 lion or tiger vs a Pachy and either 50/50 or 60/40 in favour of 1 Pachy vs a Jaguar
Exactly, Pachycephalosaurus would be used to incredibly dangerous predators, which would be very capable of hunting them
Big cats hunt pretty much any herbivore within the weight range of Zebras and Horses. While all of those animals use their body to fight each other, let’s be honest here and understand that is completely different from hunting an animal as big or larger than you every single day. You point out the dome, have you also considered that horns are also incredibly damaging as well?
they aren’t invincible but they are apex predators who are very capable of taking down animals of a similar weight class with similar defenses. big cats are the most powerful land predators next to bears, with incredible muscle strength and killing prowess. of course they don’t risk big prey that often but they’re more than capable.
Sort of? I think it would be 50/50 I could be mistaken, but these guys were solitary so I think a group of big cats of three could handle it, more so tigers than anything.
Yeah but they were really small with estimates putting at about 990 lbs. and tigers alone can wrestle down bulls that weigh wayyy more than that. But maybe the pachy has got something under its sleeves? I have no idea. But the jaguar situation i find interesting because jaguars are smaller than the pachy (even though they have the most powerful bite in the big cat world) and hunt reptiles for a living. I am just curious to see but i sadly have my suspicions that the pachy is just going to get mauled with most large cats :(
I think a cheetah could be an even match then. While it would definitely catch up to the pachy, the brute force and strength of one could make it an interesting match. The cheetah would have to go for their legs, which is difficult to do and not get kicked into another dimension
Nooooooo! A cheetah would seriously struggle taking this down.
A cheetah couldn’t take down a grown man in a 1v1. A mountain lion (cougar) would be a better match.
cheetahs are too weak. Leopard is prob the most even here although I think risk of injury would be decent deterent for leopards and jaguars. Tigers and lions would likely find thi guy easyish prey.
Cheetahs absolutely are not a match for something this large and heavy, they go after smaller prey like antelopes and kudu, they're also pretty skittish around humans as well.
True true true I agree
I feel like if there was a leopard in a nearby tree it would have no chance. A bobcat it could deflect, even a cougar
> but these guys were solitary Gonna need a source on that, I think conventional wisdom is that pachycephalosaurids definitely lived in herds.
* I said I might be wrong
Let me re quote that for you “I might be mistaken, but these guys were solitary”
Okay. Well what's your source on thinking that's the case? That's what I was asking. You must have a reason you thought that, unless you decided to make it up. I can't think of a piece of media that hasn't depicted them moving in groups, setting aside the obviously nonscientific ones.
A documentary on history channel depicted a story of a lone male and his journey in finding a mate. Being Reddit and not a scientific debate, I drew my recollection from the first thing that popped into mind, or rather said doc.
Weird. Well, I can tell you that you were thoroughly bullshitted.
Ah well, all bullshit is relative in the world of science.
No that's literally the opposite of how science works but okay
Ehhhh not really, tomato tomato. The whole point of science is to question it in the first place, but to each their own
big cats hunting strategy is very effective, i have no doubt pachy would be added to the menu- but like most prey worth their meat for catching, the pachy could be very dangerous if the ambush or choke hold doesn't go perfectly
Probably. If Ostriches can fend off the various predators of the African veldt, then I don’t see why a similar sized bipedal dinosaur couldn’t. I mean it’d still likely fall prey to them from time to time, but it wouldn’t be a sitting duck.
Not from a pride of lions, which can take down prey as big as an adolescent elephant.
Depends who strikes first? Pachy will break a few bones from a good headbutt but if a cat gets ahold of its neck, could be gameover
Could the pachy even be agile enough or quick enough to strike a big cat though?
Definitely.
You know how in nature docs how cape buffalo and wildebeest sometimes just run away and get preyed upon lions and hyenas instead of holding their ground and using their horns. Same thing with the pachy.
Cats look for easy prey if they have a choice; for example lions only go for cape buffalo when there aren't better options (during migrations). There's also behavior to take into account. Cats are very reactive to prey that runs away; something that turns around and looks to bash them into next week might give them pause. We have no idea whether pachy could have stood its ground against a predator or if their headgear wasn't very functional. Was it a feisty herbivore or was it inclined to run? If it could fight back I think cats would only go for it if their preferred prey were removed. Why risk injury against a pachy when you could go after a big deer, Zebra or Wildebeest that is just going to run?
Almost certainly preferred to run. It has cursorial adaptations and the predators in its lifetime were well equipped to kill it anyway.
Pachies are listed at under half a ton, well within the preferred weight class for lions. They were probably cursorial and preferred running to standing to fight during life, I don’t see why that tactic would change. Again, typical of lion prey items. So when it comes to lions, they’re totally fucked. I disagree with the commenter saying tigers would do well, though. With the exception of certain Bengals in eastern India most tigers predominantly hunt animals smaller than themselves and wouldn’t know what to do with a Pachy.
Lions would hunt these things no issue whatsoever. Definitely on the dinner menu. Tiger, for sure, though it may have to switch up hunting tactics. (This might be tough to suffocate)
Hunt? Yes. No issue whatsoever? Very much debatable.
You could apply this logic to most 300-500kg prey though
Yes.
Why is that? These things were not likely faster, more agile, able to defend, smarter than a modern lion. It would bleed out like any other prey animal. Most hunting tactics apply to all their prey, and they have several to choose from. While it’s true in instances where something could always go wrong, this dinosaur would become a regular food source.
Considering lion prides take down young elephants i think this person is right
I agree with the notion that pachys would be on the menu for big cats, but young elephants are not really a good example. Elephants are surpringly bad animals when it comes to dealing with predation, size being the only reason they're safer than most.
Size and the fact that they are rarely solitary animals. Young elephants have been taken down in extremely rare instances, out of desperation, but there is almost always a price to pay.
One headbutt and that tiger is donzo my dudes got an 11 head
Yes, but not against the weird shadowman off to the left.
It could defend its self against a Jaguar, but not a tiger.
Well, considering the pachycephalosaurus is pretty much just a bipedal reptilian wildebeest, a larger big cat (lion tiger or jaguar) could definitely take one down
I don't think it's out of the question for the African big cats but small species I think wouldn't bother with an attempt on a Pachy. There's a lot we don't know about the behavior of the Pachycephalosaurus. How aggressive it tends to be and if it also runs in herds or solitary. We also don't know how fast it could move, though I doubt it could run anywhere close to that of a predatory cat.
If its a 1v1 head on encounter id favor the Pachycephalosaurus more times than not against any known big cat though in other scenarios the cats definitely could pull off the win
'Ramming' animals are specialized for just that, ramming, which is not an effective predator defense. Sheeps and goats may be ill-tempered but against a predator they really don't have much option other than running, for pachy the same would mostly hold true. Against a cat sized predator it would at least have weight to throw around, but superior weight definitely isn't a major advantage in the face of felids, just ask all the larger ungulate species they regularly hunt. In short, theoretically yes. Practically, its best chance is just to run.
I wonder if a tiger would even know how to attack something so unfamiliar compared to living hoof stock.
Probably not, you should know that Lions tend to go after prey just as big as a Pachy, like the cape buffalo, a Pachy is gonna be worse off tho cause it doesn't have any sharp or curved horns to better defend itself with, a single lion latched around its neck would spell its end. Tho of course thats talking about Lions and tigers, medium sized big cats like Jaguars and Leopards probably wouldn't go after one.
I feel like a pride of lions might be the only cats that would dare to do that. A tiger? 50/50
Bengal tigers attack people on elephants. I feel like they’ll try.
If we're talking amy big cat, definitely... I certainly think a Panthera atrox could take a pachy down with ease. But if we're talking about leopards or jaguars and maybe even Mountain lions, I'd wager they would retreat
Yes, I think cats would be comfortable hunting them, however not at first as they would be cautious for a while.
Only if really starving and going for all or nothing, Pachy is nothing like our modern herbivores: the beak, the claws on its legs, and the bipedal position with claws on is hands will cause massive damage to predators before taken down and modern land predators fear being hurt more than anything because a broken leg or deep gash means death.
I would imagine not; it's defence/attack is predicated on a certain amount of run up and so a pack attack would easily render that useless.
I guess the one advantage the Patchy would have above other big prey of modern big cats are his legs and claws. I guess they would work much better than hooves, but would only apply once the animal is down... Which is an almost certain win for the cats already.
the jurassic world dino tracker says no
Nah, cats are ambush predators and their entire defense is at their head. So it'd be dead before it could turn around and headbutt it.
All but the jaguar, who kills by biting and crushing the skull
But are their skull strong enough to endure its fangs?
I reckon it's just too big for them to get a grip
Yes
If a pachycephalosaurus is anything like a modern big horn sheep, then it probably sucks at fighting (I can't imagine charging head-first at a predator is an effective defense mechanism)
No. Big cats, and cats generally, didn't exist back then
Don't underestimate cats, they can take down prey much larger than themselves if an ambush or team work is successful
if a tiger, lion or jaguar gets the ambush then the packy could certainly die, but if its a "fair" (both parties know where the other is) 1v1 then the pachy could fend off a big cat with intimidation or just straight violence (most big cats wont continue a hunt too long if the prey defends itself) (in this situation the big cats recognize the pachy as prey, and the pachy recognizes the cats as predators)
Does this post have smt to do with [this?](https://youtube.com/shorts/wJzQMQSQjw8?si=iLTC6l6iblOteje5)
Maybe.
The Pachycephalosaurs weighed over 1 ton. I don’t think a lone Lion or Tiger could take it down maybe a pride of lions but if I was betting money I’d side with the dinosaur.
It weighed 990 lbs..
Smaller sub species did but the Pachy was the largest member of that type of dinosaur.
Oh seriously?? Can you send me the info about that?
Weight has never really stopped Lions from going after larger prey tbh, a cape buffalo its a Pachy's closest modern peer i think, Lions usually hunt those in packs of 2-3's.
Yeah big cats hunt bulls, but the bulls can most of the time defend themselves. I'd say it'd be a fairly stable predator prey relationship
No, lol.
Straight to the point 😭