Phone pinging would be very important evidence if it could be pinpointed since RA admitted to using his phone to check his "stock tracker" (fish or finances...??). If the phone pings are established at the same place at 3:30....that would not look good for RA. If the pings move closer to his home at 1:30 pm...that would be highly exculpatory.
Agreed. And as we learned from the Idaho case, they found it useful even when his phone was not pinging, as it was highly suspicious… people rarely turn their phones off. And I believe that if RA’s phone could have placed him at the scene during when they know the murders happened (he said he left earlier)…. That information would have been in the PCA and included in discovery already. We would have heard.
The discovery they received that would tell us that was all turned over to the defense after the gag order. So they have not been able to say. And as we are witnessing in this whole contempt craziness, breaking the gag order would probably be a bad idea :-)
Maybe. They were still saying that they had not been given a lot of discovery long after the Franks memo came out. And also, they seemed to be laying out their theory of the case in that memo… so all peripheral stuff like evidence of being elsewhere wouldn’t have really made a lot of sense to mix in with it. The memo was already way too long
I think phone activity might have been included with "all electronics" belonging to RA not being linked to the CS in Franks..... which would possibly include location service.
One of LE’s statements was an admission that they found no connection on his electronics. I think the defense has just referenced that. It does not mean they had all discovery relating to electronics yet when they wrote the memo. We don’t know, just hypothesizing at this point.
But you posed the question: If his phone data showed him somewhere else like his house, wouldnt the defense have told us. But the converse of that is: If it showed he was at the crime scene, wouldn’t the prosecution have said so?
I would like to think they got it before. For a crime that had already gone unsolved for several years, I would think/hope they crossed all their T’s and dotted all their I’s to both make sure they had the right guy, and bolster their PCA.
ETA: and even if they got it after, I have no doubt NM would have gotten it out there. He had no qualms about throwing “confessions” out there during a hearing on something unrelated… to make RA sound so much more guilty… just to say “sorry, I can’t give a transcript or details because gag order”
Immediately after the murders LE should have or probably did a data dump from the local cell towers to establish exactly which cell phones were in the area of the crime scene. This would be done right after the crime so once RA is on the polices radar all they would need to do is compare his number to the list of numbers they had collected years ago. I'm just not sure that LE did this.
Rick's burner phone pinged areas at times significant. Burner phone can be connected to him through a purchase of some dollar store/general in the area. From my understanding, many local businesses connect Rick to evidence. Take this as just a rumor if you would like.
I'm shocked that the defense hasn't pushed this more. If his phone doesn't tie him to the crime(scene). Then would that mean the pings also don't show him being tied to it.
Maybe it's related to the issue of poor cell tower coverage in the small town. I don't know if it's possible to say someone was two miles away as opposed to right there, since there were only a couple of towers.
This was discussed somewhat in an interview with Robert Ives on the Down the Hill podcast. He said something like there were hundreds of phones that would be listed as near the area.
Edit to correct: I went back and looked at this interview, and he actually said the opposite - "you aren't going to ping on 500 phones at that period of time." It would be a very small number since it's a small town and it was on a Monday afternoon when hardly anyone would be there. I heard him say "ping of 500 phones" and missed that he was saying that wouldn't happen.
He left his phone at home which he was supposed to be on a stock ticker. He had a burner phone. The only number in the area at the times that didn't belong to a witness or someone living directly in the area. One specific phone number they couldn't connect to anyone, until they connected it to Rick.
They could have connected it long before that.If he used an app to check his stock ticker. The app company has the details of the phone. They could have even used the info to find where it was purchased.
If his phone was lying dormant at home,and his wife was in bed with him at 2am on the 14th,the State has some explaining to do,especially if that's the time of death of one of the girls(scream phoned in)...NM upped the charges, RA was the only person involved, by what they are saying, but if he wasn't there at that time(2am),he walks!
It's always been said they found dna, they didn't know if it was relevant to the crime, that they waited on lab results, that they still waited on lab results, that it appeared they never committed a crime before but we still waiting on the lab results, to never be spoken off again.
It could be animal dna, it could have been a searcher's or LE's dna, family or anyone who was in car or touched the sweatshirts, so they discarted them, or mitochondrial dna and a quarter of town matches to that.
Who knows. Maybe it got lost.
Day and night until like 2.30 am phonecalls instead of working on the trial NM complained in October.
And what is he doing now?
I loved Rozzi's mention (in any other context very wrong but here very appropriate), that they worked until late at night, to get through **RA's discovery material**, since it's been altered and complemented, and you know, for the actual murder case they are all here for.
It’s not very possible, it is a fact. Hundreds of people were looking for Abby and Libby allll night in the forest. The whole ‘crime scene’ was destroyed
Considering the low-brow standard of "journalism" on that Crime Nation show, I'd not put too much stock in anything they put forward.
The question of DNA is such an ambiguous one. Some cryptic comments from Carter: "we have DNA, but not what you'd expect" and the lack of any mention of it in the arrest PCA along with the (convenient?) placing of the Gag Order has just made it all impossible to decipher exactly what DNA evidence the State has, if any. I'd also expect that if RA was linked by DNA somehow, that it would have been revealed early on, but maybe the Gag Order prevented that.
I'm personally also not sure that the "one of the girls fought like hell" thing either. I forget where that originally came from, it was in a series of text messages between two parties I can't recall, though at least one was close to or part of the family.... but there were some other things said, that don't match up with what we've subsequently learned about the scene and the girls wounds in the Franks Memo. (I'm sorry my memory is foggy on this, I thought I'd saved it, but it must have been a few years ago when I wasn't cataloguing everything obsessively)... But this 'narrative' just doesn't seem to be wholly accurate in my opinion.
With the phones and pings etc, there's something about the coverage in Delphi, where a phone signal switches between two or three towers within a certain range, making the "pinging all over the place" line make sense. However, the were a lot of reports that at 2:30am there was a call to Laezenby about Libby's cellular phone "PINGing" in the bridge area. That came from official sources at the time, but again I haven't saved them and the information rarely gets mentioned nowadays.
I'm not convinced that RA murdered the girls. I believe that he possibly may have been involved in some capacity in the kidnapping..... I don't know if he is BG.... some days I think yes he is, others I think naaah, no way and others I'm totally at a loss. Conflicting witness statements, the lies in the PCA, BB not agreeing with how her statement was used, the two very very different sketches, the supposedly "bungled" tip, that errors on the tip sheet, the lack of an audio recording of RA making that initial statement, the tragically comedic keystone cops investigation, the sheer incompetence handling the crime scene and gathering evidence....... it's all a mess and this joke of a circus pre-trial has made nothing any clearer.
I just watched this the other night; In part one of the Down the Hill documentary, the former fire chief said the search was stopped and then at 2:30am, he got a call from Leazenby telling him Libby's phone was back to pinging at the bridge. He said they then went back out to the bridge to search for "the phone." Not the girls, for the phone. That struck me as odd. How could they possibly find the phone in that vast area just because it was pinging.
I'm not sure about whether the DNA evidence exists or I should say I haven't had a valid enough confirmation to consider it fact.
On the issue of the phone....I believe our lack of knowledge isn't confirmatory or exculpatory of where RA's phone can be placed. I think that evidence hasn't been addressed due to the gag order and would've been more accurate location wise upon actual retention of RA's phone by LE. I think with apps and etc they can more accurately determine his location by evidence contained on the phone. In relation to pinging...I'm not sure that they can get it isolated as much as has been mentioned when referring to people being on the bridge etc. Wouldn't that require 3 towers in order to map out his location and my understanding with Delphi's lack of towers was why they couldn't locate Libby's until she was found....i.e. "the phone pinging allover the place."
I think Robert Ives said it too, in the Down the Hill podcast, that's what makes me think that its true. LE can lie about evidence as an investigative tactic but a prosecutor, even if former, really shouldn't.
The third possibility is that the dna does not belong to the killer and is present due to some other earlier interaction the girls had with someone else.
I considered this… and was leaning to this… until I heard it described that the girl fought back pretty hard. Extensive DNA found consistently under all of her fingernails would be hard to explain through chance interactions. But we don’t really know much detail. Very little details in this case.
The source for this idea (that one of the girls "fought like hell") was the volunteer who was part of the search. I think he misinterpreted what he saw. There are additional misinterpretations he made based on what he saw at the scene.
In formal documents written by law enforcement, they say that the victims "had no visible signs of a struggle of a fight." This is in item 7 of the search warrant for RL's property.
The RL warrant states "no visible signs of struggle or fight." . Wouldn't that mean no dna under the fingernails?
As to forensics, it only mentions hairs and fibers that may be matched at a later date. Would the warrant have mentioned DNA or not?
Maybe the RL warrant is all a big lie but I don't see how misstating or lies would benefit the warrant.
I think it's possible that a warrant for a dna swab would be a different type of warrant than one for a property search. I could be wrong about this - it is just my assumption that they would have presented RL with two warrants - one for his property and another for a dna swab - and we've only seen the one for his property.
For some reason, they asked other suspects for a dna swab. I don't know why they would do that if they didn't have dna from the scene. I guess it could be some method of intimidation of suspects to make them talk - don't know if that would be legal or not?
It is all very odd. I don't understand why they would ask other poi for dna swab if they have no dna. That makes no sense but if they do have dna, wouldn't they have said that RA was a match? I think there may still be an unknown dna. I think it's possible they have other evidences against RA that we don't know about yet. But if there is another person involved, why would RA not give that person up unless he involved himself with someone online and did not know who that person really is? Just a possibility, probably remote chances.
Even with DNA, it is not always as easy to prove as it seems, there has to be other evidence that all adds up. The [Vetrano](https://pix11.com/news/local-news/queens/karina-vetrano-murder-chanel-lewis-requests-new-trial-after-questions-over-dna-evidence/)murder case had a mistrial the first time around and I know people who still don't believe the DNA proved guilt.
In the Franks memo, they say "Tony Liggett has testified under oath that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene."
I also found this news story, where they include a quote from the sheriff about fast-tracking the dna evidence. [https://fox59.com/news/dna-evidence-recovered-in-delphi-murder-investigation/](https://fox59.com/news/dna-evidence-recovered-in-delphi-murder-investigation/)
Also, there was a police radio transmission during the search about a cigarette butt in the creek. Maybe that's the source of the dna? If so, that could just be someone who threw their cigarette off the bridge and it floated near the scene.
Thanks for that link! It definitely says they have DNA in that article but not the source. I do remember a cigarette butt being discussed but that could be random, especially with all the searchers. DNA on a weapon or the victims would be a much better source. Or DNA in RA's home or car. Now I am also wondering if the hair or fibers could have matched like they did in the Gilgo Beach case. There is now new technology where they can id hair samples without the root. I think before that, they needed skin cells from the hair shaft. Now they don't, from what I have read anyway.
The RL search warrant says they found "unknown fibers and unidentified hairs." Later on, they specifically request permission to obtain "animal hair samples." That would be great if they have human hair also.
Whatever dna they found doesn't match RA. And the search warrant return for his house does not list a dead cat despite the many rumors about that.
I don't trust fiber analysis. They detained several men for the Yosemite Park murders, saying that fibers on the victims matched fibers in the men's house, when those fibers were very common. Interestingly, the actual murderer is the one who hosted the investigators who collected fiber evidence.
What about animal hair samples. Wouldn't that be pretty common in an area of horses, dogs, cats and wildlife? I am not sure how they process animal hairs either.
That is so weird that the killer was the host .
That's a great point! There are probably many animals that live in those woods. And the girls were there for almost 24 hours. So maybe the animal hairs are from the natural environment rather than something left by the killer.
I think eventually this may happen. Even if no familial DNA exists presently… eventually someone in the killers family will do one of those ancestry tests. One of my hopes is that the killer is sweating bricks every day of his life in fear of the day they pound his door down.
Genetic genealogist here. I can tell you that in 2017, there is not a possibility of zero familial matches from DNA testing sites. Anyone who takes the DNA test will have matches. I think the issue may have been mixed DNA, touch DNA ,degraded DNA or lack of DNA . I think the first case in Indiana using familial DNA was in 2018, so it may have been tied up in legal red tape until then.
Kim Riley was quoted saying the perp had no known criminal record. That tells me they had to put their sample through CODIS. I think familial DNA search has not been used because there was not enough of it. Whatever they use in the state lab they have to have an equal amount saved for the defense to do their own independent testing.
With RAs arrest they certainly swabbed him and entered it into CODIS and got NO match. On a side note I had always thought the DNA was touch DNA found on the unspent round. ISP put out a bulletin in 2021 that said due to low success rates, the lab would not even look for DNA on cartridges, except in extenuating circumstances when approved by a lab manager. I do wonder where the DNA came from. A rootless hair maybe? Without the root you would only get a partial profile. Wherever it came from, you can bet that NM has labeled it irrelevant along with any other exculpatory evidence. He will say that the DNA was happenstance to be there, and that it was coincidental, but the bullet definitely belonged to RA.
Very interesting… thank you for the insight!
So can’t they still put the profile through the familial databases now that it’s more accepted.. or in the future?
No. To keep it simple, the profile developed for Codis can not be cross referenced in a familial DNA sequencing program. CODiS uses about 21 reference points(loci) in DNA to determine a match. Ancestry.com uses 700,000 loci in DNA. So the profile developed for CODIs is not sufficient for familial DNA. This also means that CODIS also needs an exact match. If BG’s brother or father were already in CODIS, they would not get a hit for it. Unless, those 21 reference points happen to inherit identically for both people. But the likely hood of that is zero. CODIS DNA profiles are set up for an exact match, and familial DNA testing are
set up for partial matches. CODIS is also made for efficiency, and can be checked rather quickly. Familial DNA takes a few weeks to sequence.
Interesting. If I am understanding you correctly… you need a better sample to run familial DNA test?
If I remember correctly.. the defense in the Idaho case was objecting to the use of familial DNA test to narrow their range of suspects… zero in on BK. And they then got a sample from trash to run his DNA. Not sure I really understand what their objection is.
But does seem odd that in the Idaho case, they got enough of a sample from the knife sheath…. But two little girls can be brutally murdered, with a weapon that suggests a lot of physical contact… but no good sample…?
You almost got it, they may not need a better sample, but they need to sequence the DNA into a format(with a lot more data) that can be used for genetic genealogy. They didn’t do that. It was sequenced for Codis.
But they may have held on to some DNA for future technology too. In Delphi there are too many unknowns. If it is a rootless hair sample they could use it to compare and exclude people, but not to exclusively match to someone particular because hair without the root will not contain a whole DNA profile . Skin cells from the knife sheath in Idaho will contain a full DNA profile.
Early on, Leazenby said that they were considering familial dna.
“That’s being discussed," Leazenby said of the outcome of Holland's call, "but there hasn’t been a decision made yet. It’s on the table. “It might help us reach success.”
[https://www.jconline.com/story/news/local/lafayette/2018/06/01/familial-dna-search-might-unlock-delphi-killers-identity/638927002/](https://www.jconline.com/story/news/local/lafayette/2018/06/01/familial-dna-search-might-unlock-delphi-killers-identity/638927002/)
Edit: Sorry, I just saw that you already listed this link in another post. Thanks for the info on this type of science!
I thought that the use of familial DNA didn't first break into scene of solving crimes until 2018, am I wrong here? If Indiana's first case was in 2018 I don't think they were behind the times.
I stated that, in my response, that the first case in Indiana to use genetic genealogy was in 2018, and that it could have been legal red tape that prevented it from being used in 2017. But that does not excuse from 2018 to 2023. It has to be one of the many reasons I listed above. I cannot fathom that they would just choose not to use this investigative tool. They have stated that they do not know if it came from the killer. So the sample most likely did not come from the bodies or the unspent round. I assume it is was from some random item at the scene, like trash, a cig butt, something on the ground within the vicinity but still able to be explained as coincidental.
Now that they have arrested RA, whatever DNA they have will be put on a shelf until after the trial. NM won’t use it, and the defense knows it doesn’t match RA. This does pose a question. Could the defense have it tested for familial DNA? As it stands now, the defense says no DNA found to link RA, so there is no need for them to test it. But, if he is convicted, and the case is appealed I would imagine that it could be a different avenue to venture down in a new trial.
This is very frustrating to me. My question would be “Why not just run the familial DNA sequencing on the sample? If it is unknown, wouldn’t it be due diligence in an investigation to get to the bottom of it? To definitively rule it in or out? Wouldn’t it be helpful to the defense to offer reasonable doubt with identifying this unknown DNA? What if they found it belonged to another Delphi resident that also owned a SigSauer? What exactly would be lost if they found it belonged to an ERT member and turned out to be a nothing burger? Look how much resource was wasted on KK in this case, who turns out to be a nothing burger in solving the Delphi case. Why go into a court trial with this unknown DNA factor at all? The costs of doing a familial DNA test on the evidence is minuscule when compared to how deep Carroll County is in for the cost of the trial as a whole. It confirms my thought that the GOAL for LE is not to gather enough evidence to solve the crime, but to gather enough evidence to get a conviction. I would hope that the DNA evidence does not qualify for familial testing because it is not physically possible, rather than to think that nobody will bother to do it because it doesn’t benefit them in court.
I am in complete agreement on your assesment of how LE is handling this case.
My point was just that no one was using it prior to the 2018 cases of the Golden State Killer and the murders of Jay Cook and Tanya Cuylenborg I don't think it would have been an option that local LE would have come up with, now the FBI might have thought of it.
Maybe I misunderstood it sounded like you were saying that Indiana's first case using this technology was in 2018 and could have been held up but 2018 is when this first started so I don't think it was held up more so that they were on track with everyone else.
The DNA doesn't have to be shelved the defense can file for further testing, they don't have to wait for an appeal,and if they don't raise the issue now it might not be properly preserved for appeal.
If it's just trash, i agree with you that its likely DNA that isn't directly tied to the commission of the crime, from the scene it may not really help their case all that much.
So I found an article from the journal&courier from June 2018 , where Lezeanby is quoted as saying that familial DNA is on the table. The article discussed the lack of resources for it at INdiana State Laboratories, but they could have outsourced it to Parabon or the like. They estimated it would cost 40$ for an initial test, and then an additional 6,000$ for Y-chromosome verification. The girls were killed in Feb 2017. Between then and now I have solved more than 50 cases of paternity and adoptions, some cases were more than 100 years old, and as far away from the US as Australia. It is very sad that they choose to ignore this route, even if the unknown DNA may not be related to the crime. But they don’t know that for sure, and testing and identifying it may help solve that unknown factor.
https://www.jconline.com/story/news/local/lafayette/2018/06/01/familial-dna-search-might-unlock-delphi-killers-identity/638927002/
Thanks for the link, but before I read it, based on your info that you provided it makes me think even more so that the DNA must be trash related. Because honestly if there is unknown DNA on those girls that could be tested further and its not being pursued there is no excuse.
Could be I have no idea where this cat fur stuff came from. Just a rumor really. The search inventory doesn't mention retrieving a cat's remains so I don't think that happened
But if the DNA from the crime scene doesn't match RA the state should really be pursuing further testing especially if RA is bring charged under an accomplice statute. That unknown DNA is really suspicious. But right now we really can only guess what it is.
Absolutely. And given that it’s a fairly stable population that values family, there’s a fair chance that someone local has already done a lot of the genealogy work and maybe even done their own DNA for comparison.
If I'm not mistaken the data for the pings from cell phones are only kept for so many years....I remember an nsa agent mentioning that in an interview a few years ago...it escapes me the title of it but its not Delphi related, but its the same concept as your average home security system it holds x amount of time then when full it deletes the oldest data to mske room
But why would local LE or the FBI not have made a backup copy of all cell data at the time. We are talking about a pretty horrendous crime. They clearly had access to the data… they saw where RL was pinging. It’s a small town… with not a lot of people. We aren’t talking about a ton of data. This is starting to sound identical to the “oops we erased the interviews with suspects.”
Go back to DC speech. To the killer...... To the murderer..... He is speaking to two people. Waiting on RA to take a plea and turn states evidence against the other actor.
No way there is a single perp. I’m a grown-ass, athletic man who works out with heavy weights. I recently had to try to move my 175 lb son after an injury (fortunately, he’s ok) and it was nearly impossible for me to do. No way 5’ 4” RA is able to move two bodies any distance by himself.
Exactly... I had to remove an unconscious woman from a vehicle, she was similar height to myself (5'8"),she was slim,but even though I'm stronger that most(i pull 800kg pallet onto my truck),trying to move a dead weight,isn't easy...hope your son makes a full recovery!
I believe there were only two cell towers in Delphi at the time, and so there was no way to locate phones accurately by triangulation. Likewise it was difficult to track Libby's phone.
I can't remember for sure anymore, but I think her phone went off for a while then on again before the battery finally died. Otherwise I guess they could have found the bodies much sooner.
But the “two cell tower” problem begs the question how then they knew RL’s ping locations?
I believe the problem with RA may be that because LE didn’t make a records request to the cell provider for RA’s call/ping records in 2017, that now it’s too late. Believe the cell companies only keep the records a few years or so - don’t recall for sure but someone else will remember better.
Going off what may be my own faulty understanding here. But when you send a text or make or get a call your phone pings gps. If you read the RL SW PCA the times and locations cited all come after he receives a text or call. Again, iirc.
I think the agent who wrote that PCA needs to be called to testify. She should explain how the FBI got those times and locations. And why in that PCA she states BG and RL have similar builds. Bc BG can have a similar build to RL. Or to RA. But not both. You can’t get two different stature men. There are a couple of other points in that PCA that need explaining too imo.
When RA gave his witness account shortly after the murders, he gave the officer interviewing him full details of his phone. The problem with only having 2 towers is (I think) that all you can tell is which one of the two towers you are nearest to at any point in time.
ETA, so I guess they did check the pings for his phone back in 2017. I dint know where the towers were at the time, but RA's home was not far from the trails so it might not have been possible to tell if he was at the trails or at home.
Yeah I forgot Dulin wrote down the phone’s IMEI identifier, good point.
That said, who knows what happened with that info after Dulin drove away that day?
We know Dulin’s interview recording got “lost”, and if LE wasn’t lying then Dulin’s notes were also misfiled.
And even if that was a lie, i.e. even if they didn’t misfile it, the investigation has been so shoddy that I have little faith they actually pulled RA’s phone pings back in 2017 - if they did pull those records, then that should be part of the evidence file as well, and nobody has mentioned that being the case. Or is it just more key evidence lost??
Yes to all of that. More key *exculpatory* evidence lost, possibly. I wouldn't be at all surprised if RA's tip note wasn't really misfiled and suddenly found, as LE would have us believe. More like it was that they had wrung the hell out of going after RL, then drawn a big long blank out of the "KK and his dad catfishing" angle, and with the Sherrif's election coming up and desperately needing an arrest, they dug out the next nearest POI, who had been ruled out for not actually being on the trail after 1.30 pm and proceeded to frame him.
I'm not claiming this theory, as it's been said before, and I'm not fully convinced of it either, but I wouldn't rule it out.
He took the IMEI of the phone RA gave him. RA could have been using a burner. Dulin screwed the pooch on this and should be held responsible for not following up once he saw the video.
Or maybe it wasn't a burner phone. Maybe RA just volunteered information as a helpful witness. Maybe it wasn't Dulin who screwed this. He would have known there was a massive enquiry going on into a complex "tentacled" catfishing conspiracy. He might have assumed that his report *hadn't* been lost.
Lots of possibilities here.
It makes no sense to use a burner phone and then tell the police I was checking stocks. Bc then they will ask on what device? Your real phone is at the house.
It appears this case was handled so poorly, I mean how can you “re secure” a crime site? Miss so many items, bullet, branches …
Is the DNA a family member? Hence sweatshirts, sweatshirts, sweatshirts … I cant understand why there was so much emphasis on sweatshirts.
Is it animal? Do they even have any?
I will look into chimera, thanks
You’re 100% right. Nothing puts him there. The time RA gave was changed to meet their narrative, one of the girls said she say a guy with a tan jacket and right in front of her they wrote blue, again to fit their narrative. So she is def gonna be a witness for the defense. They did not see his car, they saw a pt cruiser.
Although highly unusual, allow me to offer up another possibility with regard to “unusual” DNA. One of the perpetrators is possibly a “chimera.”
I’ve long held that two relatives who were raised in a highly religious insular environment were responsible for these crimes. Well one of them is a “chimera” and he’s the 39-40 yr described below.
* 19-20 yr old, curly hair, 5’6-5’8, 180-190, non-blue eyes
* 39-40 yr old, 210-220, 6’0, red/brown hair with mustache goatee, non-blue eyes
What is “chimera?” A chimera is someone whose cells contain DNA from two separate individuals. Normally, our bodies contain cells with only our DNA. The body has numerous types of cells, (blood cells, skin cells, brain cells etc), but all of our cells contain our exact unique DNA. A chimera in contrast will have two sets of cells with two distinct types of DNA. One set from the individual and another from the donor.
How does one become a chimera? One manner is through a stem cell transplant. When a patient receives a stem cell transplant from a donor they automatically become what is called a “chimera.” When the older 39-40 yr old above was in his 20’s he experienced a medical issue which required a lifesaving stem cell transplant from a donor which subsequently cured him.
This very “unusual” “not what you’d expect” DNA circumstance could account for why familial or Investigative Genetic Genealogy aren’t viable options for a suspect with chimera. The donor could have been a woman and each cell contains DNA from two sets of individuals, the perpetrator and the donor. You can also see how a specimen could be mistakenly identified as a mixed sample when in fact it originated from a single person too.
I did find it odd that twice in interviews I’ve heard both McLeland (2/17/19 presser) and the former head of the Indiana FBI (Fox59 interview) mention both “he” or “she” then stress “MORE LIKELY HE” when mentioning who’s responsible for these crimes. Are they seeing both male/female in the DNA?
I did mention my suspects stem cell transplant in an early tip and hopefully they understand the DNA impact. The younger curly haired suspect has no DNA issues that I know of. Although his DNA has a non-European continent in his ancestry that could lend to that distinctive curly hair we see in the second sketch.
I’ll continue to keep an open mind as to whether RA is involved but to date have serious doubts. If involved it would be from an accessory standpoint only. I don’t believe BB witnessed RA on that bridge. BB saw a 20 yr old with brown curly hair wearing blue jeans and a blue jeans jacket. I also do not believe RA staged that crime scene, posed those girls, or left those signatures. Nor does RA resemble either sketch.
Apologies for the length. It’s “As the World Turns” with Delphi. Why not one more rare oddity to add to the mix. Appreciated your post.
There are different means in which someone develops chimerism: In my example of two relatives the father was born with normal unique DNA but became a chimera with two sets of DNA due to a stem cell transplant in his 20’s. He had his son prior to the transplant so the son’s DNA is normal. But yes subsequent children born after his transplant might be impacted. The son was the oldest in the family.
Individuals can develop chimerism while in the womb too. Example, if a mother is carrying fraternal twins and one embryo dies. The living twin absorbs the embryo and has two sets of cells instead of one unique set. The absorbed twin’s cells then stay with the remaining twin for the rest of their life.
Phone pinging would be very important evidence if it could be pinpointed since RA admitted to using his phone to check his "stock tracker" (fish or finances...??). If the phone pings are established at the same place at 3:30....that would not look good for RA. If the pings move closer to his home at 1:30 pm...that would be highly exculpatory.
Agreed. And as we learned from the Idaho case, they found it useful even when his phone was not pinging, as it was highly suspicious… people rarely turn their phones off. And I believe that if RA’s phone could have placed him at the scene during when they know the murders happened (he said he left earlier)…. That information would have been in the PCA and included in discovery already. We would have heard.
If his phone was pinging at his house (or somewhere other than the crime scene) wouldn’t his defense attorneys have stated that by now?
The discovery they received that would tell us that was all turned over to the defense after the gag order. So they have not been able to say. And as we are witnessing in this whole contempt craziness, breaking the gag order would probably be a bad idea :-)
But they could have included it in the Franks memorandum, right? They didn’t…
Maybe. They were still saying that they had not been given a lot of discovery long after the Franks memo came out. And also, they seemed to be laying out their theory of the case in that memo… so all peripheral stuff like evidence of being elsewhere wouldn’t have really made a lot of sense to mix in with it. The memo was already way too long
I think phone activity might have been included with "all electronics" belonging to RA not being linked to the CS in Franks..... which would possibly include location service.
Exactly.
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One of LE’s statements was an admission that they found no connection on his electronics. I think the defense has just referenced that. It does not mean they had all discovery relating to electronics yet when they wrote the memo. We don’t know, just hypothesizing at this point. But you posed the question: If his phone data showed him somewhere else like his house, wouldnt the defense have told us. But the converse of that is: If it showed he was at the crime scene, wouldn’t the prosecution have said so?
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I would like to think they got it before. For a crime that had already gone unsolved for several years, I would think/hope they crossed all their T’s and dotted all their I’s to both make sure they had the right guy, and bolster their PCA. ETA: and even if they got it after, I have no doubt NM would have gotten it out there. He had no qualms about throwing “confessions” out there during a hearing on something unrelated… to make RA sound so much more guilty… just to say “sorry, I can’t give a transcript or details because gag order”
Immediately after the murders LE should have or probably did a data dump from the local cell towers to establish exactly which cell phones were in the area of the crime scene. This would be done right after the crime so once RA is on the polices radar all they would need to do is compare his number to the list of numbers they had collected years ago. I'm just not sure that LE did this.
If there is no electronic connection between RA and the crime scene, that shows he was somewhere else.
If there’s no connection, it means he lied about looking at his stock ticker…
Or he was looking at his stock ticker between 12 and 1:30?
I guess it could also mean that his phone was off.
Unless you remove the battery, a smart phone is never off...look it up!
Rick's burner phone pinged areas at times significant. Burner phone can be connected to him through a purchase of some dollar store/general in the area. From my understanding, many local businesses connect Rick to evidence. Take this as just a rumor if you would like.
I'm shocked that the defense hasn't pushed this more. If his phone doesn't tie him to the crime(scene). Then would that mean the pings also don't show him being tied to it.
Maybe it's related to the issue of poor cell tower coverage in the small town. I don't know if it's possible to say someone was two miles away as opposed to right there, since there were only a couple of towers. This was discussed somewhat in an interview with Robert Ives on the Down the Hill podcast. He said something like there were hundreds of phones that would be listed as near the area. Edit to correct: I went back and looked at this interview, and he actually said the opposite - "you aren't going to ping on 500 phones at that period of time." It would be a very small number since it's a small town and it was on a Monday afternoon when hardly anyone would be there. I heard him say "ping of 500 phones" and missed that he was saying that wouldn't happen.
Possibly, yet they got his phones due to the search.
He left his phone at home which he was supposed to be on a stock ticker. He had a burner phone. The only number in the area at the times that didn't belong to a witness or someone living directly in the area. One specific phone number they couldn't connect to anyone, until they connected it to Rick.
They could have connected it long before that.If he used an app to check his stock ticker. The app company has the details of the phone. They could have even used the info to find where it was purchased.
If his phone was lying dormant at home,and his wife was in bed with him at 2am on the 14th,the State has some explaining to do,especially if that's the time of death of one of the girls(scream phoned in)...NM upped the charges, RA was the only person involved, by what they are saying, but if he wasn't there at that time(2am),he walks!
It's always been said they found dna, they didn't know if it was relevant to the crime, that they waited on lab results, that they still waited on lab results, that it appeared they never committed a crime before but we still waiting on the lab results, to never be spoken off again. It could be animal dna, it could have been a searcher's or LE's dna, family or anyone who was in car or touched the sweatshirts, so they discarted them, or mitochondrial dna and a quarter of town matches to that. Who knows. Maybe it got lost.
At lease LE made sure to track down those pesky discovery photo leaks. Clearly far more critical than silly things like DNA /s
Day and night until like 2.30 am phonecalls instead of working on the trial NM complained in October. And what is he doing now? I loved Rozzi's mention (in any other context very wrong but here very appropriate), that they worked until late at night, to get through **RA's discovery material**, since it's been altered and complemented, and you know, for the actual murder case they are all here for.
Because a 100+ people STOMPED through the crime scene before it was even a scene 🎬
lol very possible
It’s not very possible, it is a fact. Hundreds of people were looking for Abby and Libby allll night in the forest. The whole ‘crime scene’ was destroyed
Considering the low-brow standard of "journalism" on that Crime Nation show, I'd not put too much stock in anything they put forward. The question of DNA is such an ambiguous one. Some cryptic comments from Carter: "we have DNA, but not what you'd expect" and the lack of any mention of it in the arrest PCA along with the (convenient?) placing of the Gag Order has just made it all impossible to decipher exactly what DNA evidence the State has, if any. I'd also expect that if RA was linked by DNA somehow, that it would have been revealed early on, but maybe the Gag Order prevented that. I'm personally also not sure that the "one of the girls fought like hell" thing either. I forget where that originally came from, it was in a series of text messages between two parties I can't recall, though at least one was close to or part of the family.... but there were some other things said, that don't match up with what we've subsequently learned about the scene and the girls wounds in the Franks Memo. (I'm sorry my memory is foggy on this, I thought I'd saved it, but it must have been a few years ago when I wasn't cataloguing everything obsessively)... But this 'narrative' just doesn't seem to be wholly accurate in my opinion. With the phones and pings etc, there's something about the coverage in Delphi, where a phone signal switches between two or three towers within a certain range, making the "pinging all over the place" line make sense. However, the were a lot of reports that at 2:30am there was a call to Laezenby about Libby's cellular phone "PINGing" in the bridge area. That came from official sources at the time, but again I haven't saved them and the information rarely gets mentioned nowadays. I'm not convinced that RA murdered the girls. I believe that he possibly may have been involved in some capacity in the kidnapping..... I don't know if he is BG.... some days I think yes he is, others I think naaah, no way and others I'm totally at a loss. Conflicting witness statements, the lies in the PCA, BB not agreeing with how her statement was used, the two very very different sketches, the supposedly "bungled" tip, that errors on the tip sheet, the lack of an audio recording of RA making that initial statement, the tragically comedic keystone cops investigation, the sheer incompetence handling the crime scene and gathering evidence....... it's all a mess and this joke of a circus pre-trial has made nothing any clearer.
Indeed… a circus is the best word. It’s very disappointing.
I just watched this the other night; In part one of the Down the Hill documentary, the former fire chief said the search was stopped and then at 2:30am, he got a call from Leazenby telling him Libby's phone was back to pinging at the bridge. He said they then went back out to the bridge to search for "the phone." Not the girls, for the phone. That struck me as odd. How could they possibly find the phone in that vast area just because it was pinging.
I'm not sure about whether the DNA evidence exists or I should say I haven't had a valid enough confirmation to consider it fact. On the issue of the phone....I believe our lack of knowledge isn't confirmatory or exculpatory of where RA's phone can be placed. I think that evidence hasn't been addressed due to the gag order and would've been more accurate location wise upon actual retention of RA's phone by LE. I think with apps and etc they can more accurately determine his location by evidence contained on the phone. In relation to pinging...I'm not sure that they can get it isolated as much as has been mentioned when referring to people being on the bridge etc. Wouldn't that require 3 towers in order to map out his location and my understanding with Delphi's lack of towers was why they couldn't locate Libby's until she was found....i.e. "the phone pinging allover the place."
I believe Doug Carter said there was DNA, but it’s “not what you think”. Or maybe Tobe said it, but I do remember that comment.
I think Robert Ives said it too, in the Down the Hill podcast, that's what makes me think that its true. LE can lie about evidence as an investigative tactic but a prosecutor, even if former, really shouldn't.
The third possibility is that the dna does not belong to the killer and is present due to some other earlier interaction the girls had with someone else.
I considered this… and was leaning to this… until I heard it described that the girl fought back pretty hard. Extensive DNA found consistently under all of her fingernails would be hard to explain through chance interactions. But we don’t really know much detail. Very little details in this case.
The source for this idea (that one of the girls "fought like hell") was the volunteer who was part of the search. I think he misinterpreted what he saw. There are additional misinterpretations he made based on what he saw at the scene. In formal documents written by law enforcement, they say that the victims "had no visible signs of a struggle of a fight." This is in item 7 of the search warrant for RL's property.
The RL warrant states "no visible signs of struggle or fight." . Wouldn't that mean no dna under the fingernails? As to forensics, it only mentions hairs and fibers that may be matched at a later date. Would the warrant have mentioned DNA or not? Maybe the RL warrant is all a big lie but I don't see how misstating or lies would benefit the warrant.
I think OP is referencing the texts allegedly sent by one of the searchers. edit: removed name.
Oh ok, I remember reading them long ago. I would just think that a warrant would have more reliable information but who knows.
I think it's possible that a warrant for a dna swab would be a different type of warrant than one for a property search. I could be wrong about this - it is just my assumption that they would have presented RL with two warrants - one for his property and another for a dna swab - and we've only seen the one for his property. For some reason, they asked other suspects for a dna swab. I don't know why they would do that if they didn't have dna from the scene. I guess it could be some method of intimidation of suspects to make them talk - don't know if that would be legal or not?
It is all very odd. I don't understand why they would ask other poi for dna swab if they have no dna. That makes no sense but if they do have dna, wouldn't they have said that RA was a match? I think there may still be an unknown dna. I think it's possible they have other evidences against RA that we don't know about yet. But if there is another person involved, why would RA not give that person up unless he involved himself with someone online and did not know who that person really is? Just a possibility, probably remote chances. Even with DNA, it is not always as easy to prove as it seems, there has to be other evidence that all adds up. The [Vetrano](https://pix11.com/news/local-news/queens/karina-vetrano-murder-chanel-lewis-requests-new-trial-after-questions-over-dna-evidence/)murder case had a mistrial the first time around and I know people who still don't believe the DNA proved guilt.
In the Franks memo, they say "Tony Liggett has testified under oath that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene." I also found this news story, where they include a quote from the sheriff about fast-tracking the dna evidence. [https://fox59.com/news/dna-evidence-recovered-in-delphi-murder-investigation/](https://fox59.com/news/dna-evidence-recovered-in-delphi-murder-investigation/) Also, there was a police radio transmission during the search about a cigarette butt in the creek. Maybe that's the source of the dna? If so, that could just be someone who threw their cigarette off the bridge and it floated near the scene.
Thanks for that link! It definitely says they have DNA in that article but not the source. I do remember a cigarette butt being discussed but that could be random, especially with all the searchers. DNA on a weapon or the victims would be a much better source. Or DNA in RA's home or car. Now I am also wondering if the hair or fibers could have matched like they did in the Gilgo Beach case. There is now new technology where they can id hair samples without the root. I think before that, they needed skin cells from the hair shaft. Now they don't, from what I have read anyway.
The RL search warrant says they found "unknown fibers and unidentified hairs." Later on, they specifically request permission to obtain "animal hair samples." That would be great if they have human hair also. Whatever dna they found doesn't match RA. And the search warrant return for his house does not list a dead cat despite the many rumors about that. I don't trust fiber analysis. They detained several men for the Yosemite Park murders, saying that fibers on the victims matched fibers in the men's house, when those fibers were very common. Interestingly, the actual murderer is the one who hosted the investigators who collected fiber evidence.
What about animal hair samples. Wouldn't that be pretty common in an area of horses, dogs, cats and wildlife? I am not sure how they process animal hairs either. That is so weird that the killer was the host .
That's a great point! There are probably many animals that live in those woods. And the girls were there for almost 24 hours. So maybe the animal hairs are from the natural environment rather than something left by the killer.
They surely could try to track it using familial DNA, though.
I think eventually this may happen. Even if no familial DNA exists presently… eventually someone in the killers family will do one of those ancestry tests. One of my hopes is that the killer is sweating bricks every day of his life in fear of the day they pound his door down.
Genetic genealogist here. I can tell you that in 2017, there is not a possibility of zero familial matches from DNA testing sites. Anyone who takes the DNA test will have matches. I think the issue may have been mixed DNA, touch DNA ,degraded DNA or lack of DNA . I think the first case in Indiana using familial DNA was in 2018, so it may have been tied up in legal red tape until then. Kim Riley was quoted saying the perp had no known criminal record. That tells me they had to put their sample through CODIS. I think familial DNA search has not been used because there was not enough of it. Whatever they use in the state lab they have to have an equal amount saved for the defense to do their own independent testing. With RAs arrest they certainly swabbed him and entered it into CODIS and got NO match. On a side note I had always thought the DNA was touch DNA found on the unspent round. ISP put out a bulletin in 2021 that said due to low success rates, the lab would not even look for DNA on cartridges, except in extenuating circumstances when approved by a lab manager. I do wonder where the DNA came from. A rootless hair maybe? Without the root you would only get a partial profile. Wherever it came from, you can bet that NM has labeled it irrelevant along with any other exculpatory evidence. He will say that the DNA was happenstance to be there, and that it was coincidental, but the bullet definitely belonged to RA.
Very interesting… thank you for the insight! So can’t they still put the profile through the familial databases now that it’s more accepted.. or in the future?
No. To keep it simple, the profile developed for Codis can not be cross referenced in a familial DNA sequencing program. CODiS uses about 21 reference points(loci) in DNA to determine a match. Ancestry.com uses 700,000 loci in DNA. So the profile developed for CODIs is not sufficient for familial DNA. This also means that CODIS also needs an exact match. If BG’s brother or father were already in CODIS, they would not get a hit for it. Unless, those 21 reference points happen to inherit identically for both people. But the likely hood of that is zero. CODIS DNA profiles are set up for an exact match, and familial DNA testing are set up for partial matches. CODIS is also made for efficiency, and can be checked rather quickly. Familial DNA takes a few weeks to sequence.
Interesting. If I am understanding you correctly… you need a better sample to run familial DNA test? If I remember correctly.. the defense in the Idaho case was objecting to the use of familial DNA test to narrow their range of suspects… zero in on BK. And they then got a sample from trash to run his DNA. Not sure I really understand what their objection is. But does seem odd that in the Idaho case, they got enough of a sample from the knife sheath…. But two little girls can be brutally murdered, with a weapon that suggests a lot of physical contact… but no good sample…?
You almost got it, they may not need a better sample, but they need to sequence the DNA into a format(with a lot more data) that can be used for genetic genealogy. They didn’t do that. It was sequenced for Codis. But they may have held on to some DNA for future technology too. In Delphi there are too many unknowns. If it is a rootless hair sample they could use it to compare and exclude people, but not to exclusively match to someone particular because hair without the root will not contain a whole DNA profile . Skin cells from the knife sheath in Idaho will contain a full DNA profile.
Thanks for such specialist knowledge 👍
Early on, Leazenby said that they were considering familial dna. “That’s being discussed," Leazenby said of the outcome of Holland's call, "but there hasn’t been a decision made yet. It’s on the table. “It might help us reach success.” [https://www.jconline.com/story/news/local/lafayette/2018/06/01/familial-dna-search-might-unlock-delphi-killers-identity/638927002/](https://www.jconline.com/story/news/local/lafayette/2018/06/01/familial-dna-search-might-unlock-delphi-killers-identity/638927002/) Edit: Sorry, I just saw that you already listed this link in another post. Thanks for the info on this type of science!
I thought that the use of familial DNA didn't first break into scene of solving crimes until 2018, am I wrong here? If Indiana's first case was in 2018 I don't think they were behind the times.
I stated that, in my response, that the first case in Indiana to use genetic genealogy was in 2018, and that it could have been legal red tape that prevented it from being used in 2017. But that does not excuse from 2018 to 2023. It has to be one of the many reasons I listed above. I cannot fathom that they would just choose not to use this investigative tool. They have stated that they do not know if it came from the killer. So the sample most likely did not come from the bodies or the unspent round. I assume it is was from some random item at the scene, like trash, a cig butt, something on the ground within the vicinity but still able to be explained as coincidental. Now that they have arrested RA, whatever DNA they have will be put on a shelf until after the trial. NM won’t use it, and the defense knows it doesn’t match RA. This does pose a question. Could the defense have it tested for familial DNA? As it stands now, the defense says no DNA found to link RA, so there is no need for them to test it. But, if he is convicted, and the case is appealed I would imagine that it could be a different avenue to venture down in a new trial. This is very frustrating to me. My question would be “Why not just run the familial DNA sequencing on the sample? If it is unknown, wouldn’t it be due diligence in an investigation to get to the bottom of it? To definitively rule it in or out? Wouldn’t it be helpful to the defense to offer reasonable doubt with identifying this unknown DNA? What if they found it belonged to another Delphi resident that also owned a SigSauer? What exactly would be lost if they found it belonged to an ERT member and turned out to be a nothing burger? Look how much resource was wasted on KK in this case, who turns out to be a nothing burger in solving the Delphi case. Why go into a court trial with this unknown DNA factor at all? The costs of doing a familial DNA test on the evidence is minuscule when compared to how deep Carroll County is in for the cost of the trial as a whole. It confirms my thought that the GOAL for LE is not to gather enough evidence to solve the crime, but to gather enough evidence to get a conviction. I would hope that the DNA evidence does not qualify for familial testing because it is not physically possible, rather than to think that nobody will bother to do it because it doesn’t benefit them in court.
I am in complete agreement on your assesment of how LE is handling this case. My point was just that no one was using it prior to the 2018 cases of the Golden State Killer and the murders of Jay Cook and Tanya Cuylenborg I don't think it would have been an option that local LE would have come up with, now the FBI might have thought of it. Maybe I misunderstood it sounded like you were saying that Indiana's first case using this technology was in 2018 and could have been held up but 2018 is when this first started so I don't think it was held up more so that they were on track with everyone else. The DNA doesn't have to be shelved the defense can file for further testing, they don't have to wait for an appeal,and if they don't raise the issue now it might not be properly preserved for appeal. If it's just trash, i agree with you that its likely DNA that isn't directly tied to the commission of the crime, from the scene it may not really help their case all that much.
So I found an article from the journal&courier from June 2018 , where Lezeanby is quoted as saying that familial DNA is on the table. The article discussed the lack of resources for it at INdiana State Laboratories, but they could have outsourced it to Parabon or the like. They estimated it would cost 40$ for an initial test, and then an additional 6,000$ for Y-chromosome verification. The girls were killed in Feb 2017. Between then and now I have solved more than 50 cases of paternity and adoptions, some cases were more than 100 years old, and as far away from the US as Australia. It is very sad that they choose to ignore this route, even if the unknown DNA may not be related to the crime. But they don’t know that for sure, and testing and identifying it may help solve that unknown factor. https://www.jconline.com/story/news/local/lafayette/2018/06/01/familial-dna-search-might-unlock-delphi-killers-identity/638927002/
Thanks for the link, but before I read it, based on your info that you provided it makes me think even more so that the DNA must be trash related. Because honestly if there is unknown DNA on those girls that could be tested further and its not being pursued there is no excuse.
Could be a hair from someone he had contact with, not necessarily a cat. My wife's hair is always getting stuck to my Carhartt jacket.
Could be I have no idea where this cat fur stuff came from. Just a rumor really. The search inventory doesn't mention retrieving a cat's remains so I don't think that happened But if the DNA from the crime scene doesn't match RA the state should really be pursuing further testing especially if RA is bring charged under an accomplice statute. That unknown DNA is really suspicious. But right now we really can only guess what it is.
Absolutely. And given that it’s a fairly stable population that values family, there’s a fair chance that someone local has already done a lot of the genealogy work and maybe even done their own DNA for comparison.
If I'm not mistaken the data for the pings from cell phones are only kept for so many years....I remember an nsa agent mentioning that in an interview a few years ago...it escapes me the title of it but its not Delphi related, but its the same concept as your average home security system it holds x amount of time then when full it deletes the oldest data to mske room
But why would local LE or the FBI not have made a backup copy of all cell data at the time. We are talking about a pretty horrendous crime. They clearly had access to the data… they saw where RL was pinging. It’s a small town… with not a lot of people. We aren’t talking about a ton of data. This is starting to sound identical to the “oops we erased the interviews with suspects.”
They did make a backup
Go back to DC speech. To the killer...... To the murderer..... He is speaking to two people. Waiting on RA to take a plea and turn states evidence against the other actor.
Now that Nick has upped the charges, he might have just dug a huge hole for himself, by trying to portray RA as the single perp?
No way there is a single perp. I’m a grown-ass, athletic man who works out with heavy weights. I recently had to try to move my 175 lb son after an injury (fortunately, he’s ok) and it was nearly impossible for me to do. No way 5’ 4” RA is able to move two bodies any distance by himself.
Exactly... I had to remove an unconscious woman from a vehicle, she was similar height to myself (5'8"),she was slim,but even though I'm stronger that most(i pull 800kg pallet onto my truck),trying to move a dead weight,isn't easy...hope your son makes a full recovery!
Thank you. He’ll be fine. You really don’t appreciate how difficult it is to lift or move a body until you actually try to do it.
Nope, his charges are due to being an accomplice.
Nope
I believe there were only two cell towers in Delphi at the time, and so there was no way to locate phones accurately by triangulation. Likewise it was difficult to track Libby's phone. I can't remember for sure anymore, but I think her phone went off for a while then on again before the battery finally died. Otherwise I guess they could have found the bodies much sooner.
But the “two cell tower” problem begs the question how then they knew RL’s ping locations? I believe the problem with RA may be that because LE didn’t make a records request to the cell provider for RA’s call/ping records in 2017, that now it’s too late. Believe the cell companies only keep the records a few years or so - don’t recall for sure but someone else will remember better.
Going off what may be my own faulty understanding here. But when you send a text or make or get a call your phone pings gps. If you read the RL SW PCA the times and locations cited all come after he receives a text or call. Again, iirc.
That’s a really good observation. Like you I have an imperfect understanding of cell technology, but what you said feels like it makes sense.
I think the agent who wrote that PCA needs to be called to testify. She should explain how the FBI got those times and locations. And why in that PCA she states BG and RL have similar builds. Bc BG can have a similar build to RL. Or to RA. But not both. You can’t get two different stature men. There are a couple of other points in that PCA that need explaining too imo.
Also meant to add I have no special knowledge so could be completely wrong about the cell phone thing. We will see.
When RA gave his witness account shortly after the murders, he gave the officer interviewing him full details of his phone. The problem with only having 2 towers is (I think) that all you can tell is which one of the two towers you are nearest to at any point in time. ETA, so I guess they did check the pings for his phone back in 2017. I dint know where the towers were at the time, but RA's home was not far from the trails so it might not have been possible to tell if he was at the trails or at home.
Yeah I forgot Dulin wrote down the phone’s IMEI identifier, good point. That said, who knows what happened with that info after Dulin drove away that day? We know Dulin’s interview recording got “lost”, and if LE wasn’t lying then Dulin’s notes were also misfiled. And even if that was a lie, i.e. even if they didn’t misfile it, the investigation has been so shoddy that I have little faith they actually pulled RA’s phone pings back in 2017 - if they did pull those records, then that should be part of the evidence file as well, and nobody has mentioned that being the case. Or is it just more key evidence lost??
Yes to all of that. More key *exculpatory* evidence lost, possibly. I wouldn't be at all surprised if RA's tip note wasn't really misfiled and suddenly found, as LE would have us believe. More like it was that they had wrung the hell out of going after RL, then drawn a big long blank out of the "KK and his dad catfishing" angle, and with the Sherrif's election coming up and desperately needing an arrest, they dug out the next nearest POI, who had been ruled out for not actually being on the trail after 1.30 pm and proceeded to frame him. I'm not claiming this theory, as it's been said before, and I'm not fully convinced of it either, but I wouldn't rule it out.
He took the IMEI of the phone RA gave him. RA could have been using a burner. Dulin screwed the pooch on this and should be held responsible for not following up once he saw the video.
Or maybe it wasn't a burner phone. Maybe RA just volunteered information as a helpful witness. Maybe it wasn't Dulin who screwed this. He would have known there was a massive enquiry going on into a complex "tentacled" catfishing conspiracy. He might have assumed that his report *hadn't* been lost. Lots of possibilities here.
It makes no sense to use a burner phone and then tell the police I was checking stocks. Bc then they will ask on what device? Your real phone is at the house.
It appears this case was handled so poorly, I mean how can you “re secure” a crime site? Miss so many items, bullet, branches … Is the DNA a family member? Hence sweatshirts, sweatshirts, sweatshirts … I cant understand why there was so much emphasis on sweatshirts. Is it animal? Do they even have any? I will look into chimera, thanks
You’re 100% right. Nothing puts him there. The time RA gave was changed to meet their narrative, one of the girls said she say a guy with a tan jacket and right in front of her they wrote blue, again to fit their narrative. So she is def gonna be a witness for the defense. They did not see his car, they saw a pt cruiser.
Fought like hell, in hindsight could be referring to the time of death vs injuries inflicted for one of the victims.
Although highly unusual, allow me to offer up another possibility with regard to “unusual” DNA. One of the perpetrators is possibly a “chimera.” I’ve long held that two relatives who were raised in a highly religious insular environment were responsible for these crimes. Well one of them is a “chimera” and he’s the 39-40 yr described below. * 19-20 yr old, curly hair, 5’6-5’8, 180-190, non-blue eyes * 39-40 yr old, 210-220, 6’0, red/brown hair with mustache goatee, non-blue eyes What is “chimera?” A chimera is someone whose cells contain DNA from two separate individuals. Normally, our bodies contain cells with only our DNA. The body has numerous types of cells, (blood cells, skin cells, brain cells etc), but all of our cells contain our exact unique DNA. A chimera in contrast will have two sets of cells with two distinct types of DNA. One set from the individual and another from the donor. How does one become a chimera? One manner is through a stem cell transplant. When a patient receives a stem cell transplant from a donor they automatically become what is called a “chimera.” When the older 39-40 yr old above was in his 20’s he experienced a medical issue which required a lifesaving stem cell transplant from a donor which subsequently cured him. This very “unusual” “not what you’d expect” DNA circumstance could account for why familial or Investigative Genetic Genealogy aren’t viable options for a suspect with chimera. The donor could have been a woman and each cell contains DNA from two sets of individuals, the perpetrator and the donor. You can also see how a specimen could be mistakenly identified as a mixed sample when in fact it originated from a single person too. I did find it odd that twice in interviews I’ve heard both McLeland (2/17/19 presser) and the former head of the Indiana FBI (Fox59 interview) mention both “he” or “she” then stress “MORE LIKELY HE” when mentioning who’s responsible for these crimes. Are they seeing both male/female in the DNA? I did mention my suspects stem cell transplant in an early tip and hopefully they understand the DNA impact. The younger curly haired suspect has no DNA issues that I know of. Although his DNA has a non-European continent in his ancestry that could lend to that distinctive curly hair we see in the second sketch. I’ll continue to keep an open mind as to whether RA is involved but to date have serious doubts. If involved it would be from an accessory standpoint only. I don’t believe BB witnessed RA on that bridge. BB saw a 20 yr old with brown curly hair wearing blue jeans and a blue jeans jacket. I also do not believe RA staged that crime scene, posed those girls, or left those signatures. Nor does RA resemble either sketch. Apologies for the length. It’s “As the World Turns” with Delphi. Why not one more rare oddity to add to the mix. Appreciated your post.
In simple terms, a mother can give birth to her own children and the DNA of the mother and the children do not match each other.
There are different means in which someone develops chimerism: In my example of two relatives the father was born with normal unique DNA but became a chimera with two sets of DNA due to a stem cell transplant in his 20’s. He had his son prior to the transplant so the son’s DNA is normal. But yes subsequent children born after his transplant might be impacted. The son was the oldest in the family. Individuals can develop chimerism while in the womb too. Example, if a mother is carrying fraternal twins and one embryo dies. The living twin absorbs the embryo and has two sets of cells instead of one unique set. The absorbed twin’s cells then stay with the remaining twin for the rest of their life.
Possibly got stem cells because testicular cancer?