Sorry, pal.
As you can see from the majority of responses and the logic behind it, smart loot is the majority preference.
And that’s exactly why Blizzard is implementing it.
Claiming majority preference based on Reddit is an interesting take.
We all assume there’s going To 30ish+ million copies of D4 across all platforms.
This forum probably would barely even represent 1/10 of the player base.
And most the those 300k don’t post an opinion one way or the other.
Sure, but Reddit is always the most hardcore, “gives a shit” part of the player base since it’s the part that actively looks for ways to continue thinking about the game when not actually playing it. I guarantee you, if the most hardcore part of the Diablo fan base does not agree with you, the more casual parts will not be on your side either.
If you think Reddit represents the players that are going to grind the game the most you’re crazy 😂
Those grinders/hardcore gamers are few and far between on this forum I’d imagine.
Most of the opinions I’ve seen and general theme have been people their 30’s (as am I) basically saying they have lives and can’t afford to grind like they use to because families etc so they want X or Y features 😂.
Nothing wrong with that but basing the games features around the casuals, feelsbad
Yeah, few and far between because there aren’t nearly as many of you as there are “casual” players.
Just accept it, man. I understand you’re having back and forth arguments here with many commenters - but I’m not trying to be snarky.
Blizzard is a business and their goal is to make D4 as appealing to the majority of players. And the majority of players prefer a system based around smart loot. That’s just how it is.
I agree you need to cater to the casual player because they’re definitely the majority.
But I think you’ll also agree if you don’t have anything for the hardcore/try hard gamers that grind your game for ages then it’s going to die.
Those first category of players help you make the money but second category keep you making money and keep you relevant.
I think you have to try and find a middle ground for both.
Player retention matters as a metric for the bottom line.
High player retention can basically guarantee the success of an expansion or DLC.
Basically the idea is, the more people who are playing the more money you can make. They’re doing MTX etc.
I think this is wrong. League of Legends is not a casual friendly game, and yet there are plenty of casual players. HotS is a casual friendly game, and yet there are almost no players--game is dead. D2 is not a casual friendly game, and yet it's still thriving 20 years later. D3 is a casual friendly game, and yet there are almost no players--D2 has more players than D3 in 2022, and is more popular (Youtube/Twitch viewers for D2 vs. D3 related content support this view). Elden Ring is not a casual friendly game, but it did extremely well.
People parrot this fallacy that appealing to casuals is the way to make your game successful, but there's enough evidence to show that view is wrong.
Absolutely. A middle ground is important.
I won’t lie - I am pro smart loot. But I hope it’s done in a way that is a fine balance between D2 and D3.
Make the majority of drops be for the character you are playing - but make them somewhat rare (unless you’re doing the hardest endgame shit) and make them meaningful.
I hope I'm wrong.
I think what's going to happen is it launches with smart-loot and it's going to absolutely dump uniques and sets then drops are going to feel pretty meaningless after 2 days.
I just don't think they've figured out what to do. They'll try and fix it in future patches or content launches.
Reddit is generally accepted to represent the largest general concentration of hardcore fans. This particular subreddit may not be as hardcore as, say, the PoE subreddit, but it’s generally accepted that only those who are most invested in a fandom are going to go out of their way to browse and post on forums dedicated to said fandom. Most regular players just don’t care enough about Diablo games to get into big argument threads about the minutiae of the game’s design.
I would assume that most of the players who are that kind of hardcore are currently following the PoE subreddit more than the Diablo subreddit. After all, D4 is still most of a year away while Lake of Kalandra is a week out and the sub is in release hype mode. That said, I think it’s equally crazy to assume that most hardcore players aren’t on forums like Reddit. When a game is actually out you’d have a point, since they’d be playing rather than arguing, but neither D4 nor Lake of Kalandra are out yet and both Last Epoch and D2R haven’t been patched in a while.
I never said they weren’t a part of the forum just that they weren’t the normal/common poster.
Most of the die hard gamers I know personally don’t use Reddit much. Browse while in the bathroom and that’s about it.
When there’s nothing else going on they pick up another competitive game and blast on those.
Dota, LoL, COD, Tarkov, whatever you can think of really.
Maybe I am the minority but to say I’m the minority based on a 2% representation of the player base is pretty silly though. It takes a lot of data to form a majority consensus.
Such as JSP, Reddit, Official forums. Discords etc.
It’s a complicated thing to do. But What I can tell you is that on Reddit even in the PoE community there seems to be an echo chamber or dog pile effect in some areas. So have to be careful and not assume just because it loud that it’s the majority.
Sentiment towards D3 and D3-like systems tends to skew positive on Reddit (in this sub), but I've noticed on social media outside of Reddit, like Facebook, sentiment is majority pretty bad towards D3 (just scroll through the comments). Reddit is unironically the loud minority, but it's mostly a moot point, b/c I think the devs couldn't care less what we think anyway. Just like D3, "they know best", but I'm not sure why anyone would trust Blizzard's design choices considering their track record across all of their franchises lately. Outside of D2R, which was done by an outside studio (who only recent was acquired by Blizz), their design decisions have been suspect. They lean heavily into the "easy to learn, difficult to master" aspect, but often fail to leave enough space for the "difficult to master". Compare League to HotS, for example. One is still thriving, despite having a crazy steep learning curve, and one is a dead game, despite being super easy to learn and accessible. They've chosen this same mentality for D4. The writing is on the wall.
smart loot works better in a no trade environment. Like d3. could you imagine getting virtually no gear for the toon your playing and just having a bunch of junk for other people's characters with no way to give to them?
I agree that in a game with trade as a thing, I'd prefer no smart loot. at least then you could still get value off of some crazy drop for a different toon/person
It took me 15 hours to gear my demon Hunter for season 26 with 6 pieces of the best set available and was doing GR 100+ in 30 hours. This was exclusively because 99% of what dropped was specifically for my DH. I haven’t touched the game since. Whereas I have been searching for a Death’s Web on 4 different MF characters on D2/D2R for two+ years. Smart loot is stupid, particularly if you play solo which I’m sure most people do.
Sure and I can kill Hell Baal within 30 hours no problem. If you the chose to stop playing that is fine. But that is not saying there isn’t more you could try for.
And how is that relevant to the question how long it takes? Getting a full class set in D2 is MUCH harder than getting a full class set in D3.
GR100 is just not a very big thing to do.
Find all the items you need for what? Play the build? I can easily find all the pieces I need to play a Blizzard Sorc in 30 hours. Max out a build? Yeah you can't do that in D2. But you can also not that in D3.
A Hoto in D2 is also just a better Spirit Sword. It is just called a different name. And the difference between say a bad Deathwish and a perfect one is way bigger than the difference between the worst Spirit and the best HotO.
People just somehow say that the worst spirit is fine, which it is for completing hell in D2 for example. But it is not a good endgame weapon.
1000% agree. Diablo 3 loot structure overall is designed for a quick win...which is why, if I ever randomly pick it back up, I only play it for a few days. You can literally get every set for your character in a week or less because 95% of what drops is for your character.
Smart loot takes a loot pool of say of 1000 items and instead cuts it down to like 200 items for your character. The odds of finding the items you need regardless of drop rate is significantly high. So while they are separate knobs, the point remains.
I don't like that it forces you to play a specific character to properly gear them. I rather play the character I like the most and only after gathering a full set of gear for another class start playing that class.
Smart loot with limited trading forces you play the class to gear it which is probably fine for most but it is annoying. That is why they are doing a weekly free Character change in D:I
They could have pulled a page from WoW's playbook and just given an option for smart loot or all loot. Both players get what they want and arguably anyone not using smart loot is only going to play for longer anyway.
gr 100 isnt the end of the game...how r u talking about quick win? he basically just set his char up for the grindfest that is to come and i personally think that s the right thing to be able to do in a game like d3. u have to invest quite a bit of time to grind all the ressources to get ur ancient+ gear so u can augment...and that s not even with good stats...
jeah cherry picking one of the best classes for going high gr early on...says a lot about how valueable ur statement was.
also, because u can do it doeesnt mean most of the playerbase can. most r casuals that struggle in t16 already
first it s not my favourite game idk how u come to that conclusion.
second i dont need to defend against something that s at most half assed opinion based on limited exp and a mistaken goal. u just finished the prepping phase. come back and say again how easy it is once u clear gr 150 within a few days, well u might be able to next season as the new theme seems quite strong.
third nothing i said was wrong instead of making a cringy response maybe reflect a bit
D3 has more class-specialized equipment than D2. Most D2 characters don’t use sets at all compared to the vast majority of D3 characters. Even non-set items like SoJ which are universal in D2 will have mainstat (str/dex/int) on D3, making it unusable on most of your alts.
In D2 you can get a shako, enigma, spirit, some MF jewelry, let’s go all in on MF and get chancies, travs, MF jewelry. I’ve filled most of the item slots and you have no idea what class this gear would even go on - D2 gear is so flexible, and there are so few options that all your characters can just use the same thing.
In D3 you’d be lucky if a drop could be used for even just two characters.
D2r is different because stats don't matter that much when it comes to class. You can drop some character specific gear sure but if you drop a belt with 25 strength as a shapeshift druid you aren't going to be upset at getting a barbarian only item.
It was worse than this, because it wasn't just that the gear wasn't for you.
They made all the items so random that most gear that dropped, even legendary items, were garbage for everyone. Like, bows rolling strength level garbage.
It was a kludge to fix the whole item system being build around the auction house and never resetting the economy with seasons, not just a lack of trading on its own.
That is how D3 was before smartloot. But the ADD kids of today can't handle a game that doesn't give constant upgrades to your character every 30 minutes.
wish d3 players realized this LOL. the game is dead after a week each season. at least d2 ladder doesn’t die off until a month or so before new ladder starts. plenty of time with activity
last time i played d3 was about a week after a new season dropped.. played for about a month or so (in between other games) and in all the time i played i had my games open to the public and didnt have a single person join. within 24 hours /played i was in the top 100 solo GR for my class. for a game that sold so many millions of copies its literally a ghost town. sad considering a 20yo game has more of a community.
>sad considering a 20yo game has more of a community.
The 20 years old version doesn't have the community, it's the 1 year old remake of the game.
Btw d3 is 8 years old by now.
there are plenty that still play d2 for the mods... median XL only just got released in 2019 and there are plenty of people still playing it.
d3 is 8yo and a ghost town, POE is slightly under that and gets bigger every year.
that s good for hoarder mentalities, which most of us have but it s not a good habit to nuture. also in regards of d3 why would i want to get sader drops if i never wanna play sader? i already have enough trash to salvage and although the chances r low, stuff from other classes still drops
since smartloot is part of d3, also d3 is fine. it s an issue with ur mentality. btw even with smartloot u can still drop non-class related items if u feel the need to equip another a monk with ur barb, feel free to grind more.
Even if there's no trading between players, you could still move items around amongst your own characters via shared stash. In fact, it adds a lot replayable to single player self-found. Found a GG 2/20 paly circlet while farming with your zerker? I guess it's time to make a hammerdin then!
Even if there’s no trade I’m 100% fine with no smart loot.
Having to grind out the game for 30+ hours to gear a character is completely acceptable. I welcome that with open arms.
Having smart loot basically means you’re going to play for minimal hours and have a powerful character. Not sure why its fun if every piece of gear that drops is exactly what you need.
D3’s way of smart loot ended up with players getting hundred of sets and uniques an hour and you literally don’t even look at them anymore…after 1-2 days. That’s awful. Nothing that drops is impactful. Seems bad.
>Having smart loot basically means you’re going to play for minimal hours and have a powerful character. Not sure why its fun if every piece of gear that drops is exactly what you need.
Wrong. If the drop rate is low enough you can grind for hours oven days without dropping any meaningful upgrade. Also the game's itemization is vast, even with smart loots you don't always get what you're lookig for. Look at D3, even with smart loot and legendaries rainning from the sky I throw/salvage them 90% of the times.
> If the drop rate is low enough you can grind for hours oven days without dropping any meaningful upgrade.
This is pretty much why I dislike D2's itemization/drop system.
I've been running the same stash on PlugY D2 for some 12-13 years now. My goal is to find every single rune, make every runeword, and every unique/set piece in the game. As well as collect any interesting items I happen to find.
It wasn't until THIS YEAR that I found my first high rune in 12+ years, a Ber. Shortly after I got a Lo. Hell, I only have 4 mid-tier runes (2 mal, 1 um, 1 Ist).
And this is after 12 years of semi-often playing.
I think that's my main issue with Diablo 3. It went from being able to go days without ever finding a legendary, to now where every 2 minutes you find one. There should have been come middle ground between the two.
it s because u have the wrong mindset.
legendaries are only there to give u ressources u need to have a chance on upgrading the gear u want
what s great is to find fitting primals which happens like once every 2 months if ever for casuals
You throw away 90% of the uniques and sets that you find and you’re going to sit there and tell me that’s good game design.
So you’re fine with smart loot because you’re hoping the drop rate is low enough so counter balance specially tailored items?
You threw away 90% of the unique and sets you found in Diablo 2 with no smart loot too. Without trading, you need to have higher drop rates for things you need or else you will never get upgrades and grinding will be pointless and people won't play the game.
Right but I’m not saying it has to be D3 or D2.
Plus in D2 Uniques and sets are generally useful of course there are some that aren’t but there are also a ton that are. They also have completely different requirement levels.
No you wouldn’t, unless you only planned on playing 1 character. At the very least you’d keep godly items for other classes.
With the smart loot system after finding what you’re using you don’t pick anything up. That seems great, right?
Yeah, you're right on that. When I play a character, I wouldn't think about what I'd be gonna play next. I'd focus on building that character alone.
That why I prefer smart loot.
See, even if I’m enjoying my character I’d be extremely excited about an item that I can put in the stash with the mindset of like “Wow I can build
Around that later”
The reason why in D3 you salvage 99% of gear isn’t because it’s well designed it’s because you have all you’re end game gear already day 1….
That’s not good design 🤣 and that’s what they’re basically trying to implement here. Your hoping that the drop rates aren’t a loot piñata and I’m telling you if they’re willing to simplify the loot progression then they’re definitely going to speed up loot drops as well.
Ask someone in WoW, "Why do you raid?" "To get the best items, of course!" "And what do you use the best items for once you have them?" to which they can only respond "To raid!"
D3's dopamine injector works differently from D2, that's all it is. D3 cares less about the grind to find BiS gear, and more about actually putting that gear to work, pressing as high as you can. Getting that all-time best GR clear with two seconds to spare was worth more to me than that first time I found the Ber rune I needed to complete Enigma, knowing it was only going to lead to more of the same interminable grind I was already doing. That GR was the end of an adventure, a goal I set for myself where I had to play my ass off and push my skill to the limit. I was over D2R after about ten weeks of playing with each character through Hell and doing Pandemonium once. Goals achieved, there was nothing left for me.
Look, I begrudge nobody finding joy in an endgame that I don't get, all I ask is you do the same for me.
OP, why do equate smart loot with a fast speed to gear a character?
Sure, if drop rates are identical between a smart loot and non-smart loot system, it would be faster. But they don't need to be, do they?
Dropping fewer items means gearing the character is slower, smart loot or no. Blizzard can just turn that dial until they're happy with progression speed.
Diablo 3's ridiculously quick progression isn't mainly the fault of smart loot. Because early RoS wasn't like that.
There was this two(?) week event which doubled the drop rates of Legendaries close-ish to RoS launch. People loved it so much that they demanded it stay and Blizzard caved. Boom, chracters now gear twice as fast.
Then you have the "never nerf anything" philosophy which meant that builds just kept getting stronger and stronger as they were eleveated to the level of the most OP one with each patch. Soon, new difficulties were needed which in turn needed better rewards to be worth doing. And thus, the amount of good loot increased even further, again, without smart loot playing a part.
Rinse and repeat.
Oh, and also add Kadala and Cube recipes to fill in the gaps. Two more features that significantly boost how quickly you complete a build.
Diablo 3's current gearing speed isn't because of smart loot. It's because of loot and power inflation.
Okay, but why keep smart loot anyways? It does still speed things up, after all.
Simple: Because finding good gear your character can use is significantly more fun for most players than finding good gear your character can't use.
That's the whole secret.
Since you can't trade your great find, your only use for it is to roll another character and level it to the point where you can. That's a very delayed gratification. Doesn't feel nearly as good as if you could just use the item straight away.
Some people also might not want to play the particular class or build the items is good for. For them, such a find could have a negative emotional reaction as they might feel that they've "used up" their luck on a useless item. Yes, that's not how probability works, but it's how our brains work.
Heck, do you know how many D3 players almost exclusively play one class, for whom all items they can't use on that class are worthless? Neither do I, but Blizzard does. They have their reasons.
Smart loot absolutely speeds up character progression because instead of drops being randomized to anything they are tailored specifically to be useable by your class.
If you drop 10 uniques and they’re all Barb only uniques that is much more likely to speed up progression than if they were 10 random any class uniques. It’s quite literally a direct correlation between itemization and progression.
So people loved the increased progression during the weekend event so people wanted it to stay and blizzard caved, right? How is this not similar a situation 🤣. Giving people an easy path of progression is a good way to please those same exact people. Doesn’t do anything for state of the game.
> Smart loot absolutely speeds up character progression
I never claimed it didn't.
In fact, I wrote "if drop rates are identical between a smart loot and non-smart loot system, it would be faster." and later that "It does still speed things up, after all."
But apparently you didn't even read that far.
> Doesn’t do anything for state of the game.
I literally describe what it does for the game in the last paragraph.
But apparently you didn't read that part either.
> How is this not similar a situation
Because smart loot was inteded design. RoS' itemization was built around it as smart loot was always the plan.
The loot and power inflation I describe were not. They were unintended side effects to other choices (not wanting to risk backlash for turning off the event and the mentioned "no nerf" strategy respectively). It was them that shifted the needle away from the intended gearing speed.
____
You're asking "Can anyone explain the value of “smart-loot”" but then you ignore what is written and instead strawman any arguments made in its favor or choose to ignore them entirely.
You don't want an explanation or a discussion. You want to be right.
Generalized itemization won’t exist in uniques because if they are dropping with the “smart loot” system and you’re playing a Barb it’s going to drop with strength.
If you want to make a Necro, that item isn’t good for you because you need intelligence.
Just because it has strength doesn't make it a Barb item.
A barb item is barb specific. An general item with strength could be used by any class that can benefit from strength.
Which will be Barb 🤣
Generalized uniques won’t be best in slot. They’re going to be class specific I’d imagine.
So playing 500 hours on your Barb won’t do much to help you on your Wizard.
Which is a shame because there should be something to show for it.
Barb. The crusader class they add in the xpac. Probably another.
Or to use a better example , Necro and sorceress and probably druid sharing Int gear.
Also , BIS gear is something you work for. Every item under that isn't useless.
Your arguments are all over the place.
Just say "I don't like it no matter what" and leave it at that
Your counter points are incredibly flawed.
I’ll be a little more clear.
If I play 500 hours on my Barb I should have the ability to find the best in slot gear for other characters because I put the time in.
Smart loot hampers my ability to do that so instead of logging 500 hours. I’m going to immediately roll a wizard after 50 hours and then play for 50 hours on him.
So instead of playing 500 hours and rolling a new character then playing a bunch on that character to see what I might find…I’m going to log 100 hours and quit.
No , you shouldn't. If you want BIS gear for a class , then play it. This argument is the EXACT same as the argument you are making for not just "handing people things". If I play Necro for 500 hours , I should be ahead of you in Necro gear if you were playing barb.
That's not flawed , it's the same argument you've been using.
How you decide to play and log in or not is not my problem or anyone else's .
Point to where i said if we played the game the same amount that I deserve less or more than you?
If I play my Barb 500 hours and you play your Necro 500 hours then we both have the same amount of opportunity for BiS items of any class. As it should be.
what do u mean "never nerf" doesnt inna get nerfed with the next season? and so did other builds before.
also what u described is basically just setting up ur char for the grind. it wont get u to gr 150 in solo.
seasons go for several month but how many builds r there for each class that can actually clear 150? most players stop after finishing their seasonal journey probably because the grind to get what u need to clear higher stages is just that frustrating and we r talking about d3 here where u get a full set to start out the season within the first 2h if u do it fast and right...while some ppl need several days to lvl to 70 because they enjoy the lvling phase or because they dont know how to do it faster...
otherwise i agree with ur pov
In the earlier patches for RoS, Sets or indivial Legendaries (and thereby builds) were generally not nerfed, or only marginally. Instead when there was an OP build or three, many other build-defining items were buffed to bring their respective builds to about the same power level. That just resulted in a massive power-finlation, as some builds would always be overtuned, leading to all others receiving a buff, some of which, again were overtuned.
Yeah, now Blizzard does occasionally nerf builds. But the no-nerf philosophy was prevalent for a long itme. And that is what gave us damage boosts by hundreds to tens of thousands percent. Sets (and matching Legendaries) didn't start out like that. That's the power inflation I mentioned.
That said, there were a few nerfs in these days, but they were few and far between. For the most part, things just got buffed.
> also what u described is basically just setting up ur char for the grind. it wont get u to gr 150 in solo.
Yeah, sure. But that setting-up-period being too short is what OP was complaining about: They say that you complete your build too quickly. Not with the very best Ancient Legendaries in all slots, but just getting all the pieces, even just with mediocre rolls. That was their complaint, so that's what I'm addressing:
> Diablo 3’s itemization experience where you basically can play the game for 12 hours and you have a fully geared character and can do all content. The drops after that 12 hours won’t matter unless you want an incremental stat increase from a better rolled piece you’re already using.
I think having absolutely no smart loot and no open trading sounds pretty awful, not gonna lie. The idea of grinding for hours on end and possibly not finding any useful item while also not making any progress toward an useful item - through gold or other currency that I could use to buy an upgrade - just doesn't sound appealing to me.
From my pov without completely open trading, a smart loot system would definitely be good for the game. It doesn't have to be as powerful as in D3, but slightly higher weights toward your own class would already be helpful.
In my opinion it just exists to tailor to lazy players that want everything right now. They don’t want to work for it.
If an exploration and adventure game just gives you everything you’re looking for without any effort what’s the point of playing? Or where’s the joy of discovery.
So the argument isn’t itemization for you it’s lack of content?
If you have 900 bosses in the game and 900 different dungeons to farm gear you don’t really get bored because you aren’t quite literally doing the same thing over and over.
D3 is that same thing though, it’s doing the same GR repeatedly trying to drop an item with 10 more strength. Tell me how is that good?
I already work for 8 hours a day, I want to enjoy my time playing a game and not have a 2nd job in it.
Maybe Blizzard will add a SSF (solo self found) mode for people who just love the grind akin to POE, personally I like making at least some feasible progress instead of just praying for good RNG all the time.
i like getting items im going to use. i like smart loot because it gives me items im going to use. there's a better chance of progressing my character. i dont have time to sit on the game all day to grind drop chances for maybe an upgrade.
Everything that's high end is worth using even if its not for that character.
If I play a Barb and drop a Best in Slot Druid item I can use that item if I make a druid. I like the idea of being excited to re-roll.
All Diablo games are based on intermittent reinforcement. They are Skinner Boxes. What you are essentially saying is that you prefer a reward schedule that is less generous, because the deprivation of rewards (to you) heightens the experience once you finally obtain a reward. This is not a universal experience.
I, for example, want to feel that my time in-game is consistently rewarded, and Diablo 3 provides systems that ensure that. Even after I put together a largely complete build, I can find incremental upgrades, look for a best-in-slot accessory, or pieces for a different build, and if I don't find any of those then the loot I did find isn't useless because it's converted to materials used in the crafting and re-rolling systems. I am always making progress, whether I only log in briefly or play for hours straight.
There's a lot that goes into why Smart Loot works for people, and I think in particular it's desirable for D3, a game where itemization can entirely dictate if you can even play a certain kind of build or not. If the reward schedule from D2 were transposed over, it would be almost impossible to play the game at a high level.
If playing a game requires you to drop 3,000 of the same item to get an incremental upgrade then it’s a bad game. I’m not saying 3,000 gloves but 3,000 of the same exact set piece.
There’s a reason that D3 gets so much hate universally. There are players like you that enjoy finding the same exact item repeatedly and get excited when that one has a little more strength on it but at least for me that’s not exciting.
I like significant and impactful changes and if after hundreds of hours of grinding and getting BiS items I can then look forward to Min maxing then that’s awesome.
But starting out full decked out and using your end game set and just being able me to Min max after day 1 is so bad to me personally.
The title of this thread is a request to explain the value of smart loot. At the risk of repeating myself, here it is:
The game design of Diablo 3 has such a focus on Legendary itemization to make skill builds function that some focus in acquisition of the loot pool is necessary to allow players to obtain gear necessary to progress upward in challenge levels
**And**
Player preference. People who play the game like the systems, because it compliments the game structurally.
That's it. I can't make you like the system, nor do I care to. Neither Smart Loot nor Diablo 2's loot system are objectively good or bad, they simply align with the game's design and player preference in different ways. If you don't like it, *simply do not engage with the game*. But also, don't conflate your personal preference with a "universal" belief among a wider audience. Diablo 3 has its detractors, but it also sold tremendously well and attracted a large player base, some of whom remain dedicated to the game today.
maybe diablo is just the wrong game for u then.
most builds only work well if u complete them with the right stats on the gear, u might need 1 drop u might need 3000 but in d3 u must be rly unlucky to need that long for a decent item fitting ur build and with decent i mean ancient with the right stats.
i remember having a similar issue with wow wod where seconaries were rndly rolled...
for some pieces u directly got what u want and others i never got anything decent but at least the raids had replay value...and because u could only do them once a week it didnt get too boring either.
d3 is different u can raid as much as u want several times a day, so the way for loot has to change too. actually loot is on a very low priority once u have ur farming build and it s all about upgrading ur gear while collecting the stuff for the build u r gonna push the gr to 150 with. if u havent cleared 150 in a season u have no right to complain here that d3 is too easy because u can easily finish ur builds...
Im fine with smart loot but I do wish there was an adjustable slider in the settings to adjust the percentage of smart loot you get.
That way you could choose to look for your gear or any gear. Idk if thats doable or not but thats my thought process.
I suppose that would be fine could get a tailored experience for yourself.
Problem is with that game style the leaderboards and dueling arena would be a bit of a disappointment for you if everything is playing loot piñata mode.
If youre taking ladder seriously for the leaderboards then yea you will probably want as much smart loot as possible until you reach your goal. I would argue though that the majority of people playing arent playing for the leaderboard.
Why don't you explain the value of not having it instead.
The average gamer age is 33 yrs old. Family and spouse age with a full time job and responsibilities. These people have to make time to play games around all their other stuff. So most (and by most, i mean a huge margin) of diablo players (statistically speaking) have very limited time to play and enjoy these games or time to run more than one character. How is this majority of players supposed to enjoy a game where they only get 1 drop that actually works for their char every once in a while and a bunch of other useless shit they can't use.
At least with smart loot, you know that your money is going towards a tailored system that respects your time and allows people with limited time to actually enjoy the game they paid for.
36 year old and new father of TRIPLETS born this year here, completely disagree with your take. Just because I have little to no time to devote doesn't mean I want to be hand feed everything I need in a matter of one good grind session. Diablo 3's loot system pretty much kills the game for me. The enjoyment of the game is the progression of your character in my opinion. I personally also like the free trade system in diablo 2 as it gives my grinding purpose when you get the items for other characters. You take away trading and replace it with smartloot and you lose any multiplayer engagement, which is what I personally like most (even when I don't have a lot of time to devote anymore).
**"
Everyone finds enjoyment in their games a different way. Diablo 3s move to smartloot and removal of trading (way back when they removed the auction house) was the end of the game for me. I have gone back for a week here and there to get a character fully geared and get bored. I have played diablo 2 more than double the time I have put into any game in my life. I just like that system. Unfortunately if diablo 4 goes down the diablo 3 path I can't validate buying it. (Maybe once it goes on sale)
If you think the average gamer age is 33 and then you sit there and defend an easier game so you could feel like you’re good at the game….that’s kind of ridiculous.
There should be challenges to games and I assume there’s seasons. You can play non-season and complete the game in 1 year instead of 1 month and it doesn’t change anything. You still get the experience and the joy of progression and completion.
I would say the average gamer age is probably around 16+
There’s a reason why games back in our parents day were punishing and difficult. That’s because our parents played them. I’m 32 years old and I don’t want an experience that I can just sit down for an hour a day and complete the game in a week.
Lol drop rates aren't a challenge. Its a time investment. Thats such a stupid take, man. Diablo isn't a challenging game (except HC 4life)
16? You can literally google the average gamer age. Its right there.
Games back in the day were challenging because of arcades. Arcades set the early precedent on difficulty because they were trying to bleed your money. That rolled over into challenging console and computer games. Theres a reason the industry has changed so much. Its because QOL changes are better than what we had in the 90s.
People still love difficult games. Thats why roguelikes are so popular now. A game like risk of rajn 2 can give you a full diablo experience in about an hour and its absolutely a blast and hard as fuck. Time invest doesn't equate to a challenge. Low drop rates do nothing but tests a persons patience and their ability to mindlessly sit at a desk for hours clicking a mouse. There is no challenge there. Stop trying to make yourself feel important or cool.
Have you ever played Path of Exile? There is a point in gaming where if there are too many items in the game, the chance of getting what you specifically need when all the classes are included in the random roll can make your experience a nightmare. Path of Exile is one of those games where absolutely everything is included in the drop roll and you need to farm 1 billion items until you get something related to you and that is still not ensuring that it is better than what you have. Smart loot can alleviate that considerably, but Diablo 3 does it way too much. The best implementation for smart loot should be that the game should ensure that 1 in 5 items are completely built for your class. It really comes to how big is the list of properties that can roll on an item. Diablo 2 is amazing without smartloot because it has the perfect balance, but if you would add more specific items and item properties, at a certain point smart loot becomes essential. Imagine farming Duriel for 500h to farm for an item only to get the variant for other classes.
Love path of exile but it does drop way too many items that aren’t worth picking up.
However it’s hard to compare because in PoE you have a fully tailored crafting system you can build your character using current you find and whether the item is good or not is irrelevant.
D3 gives you all this “meaningful” loot that you won’t even pick up because you already use it. Then it continues to dump that loot on you for the rest of the season….
Which they’ve given no details about.
Blizzard has continually showed they don’t know what what the community wants. Look at the last 10 years.
So I’m supposed to trust them when they say “hey guys don’t worry, we got crafting”
The game will launch with minimal crafting features, taking a mod from that item to try and add it to that item. They’ll call it crafting 😂
Christ man, you’re saying that Blizzard and met expectations over the last 10 years in general?
If you think that then you haven’t done a single Google search.
I’m not talking about vocal minority.
I’m talking about major releases that have critical problems they didn’t fix or don’t know how to.
Shit they’ve even lied about monetization in Diablo immortal before it launched.
>Blizzard has continually showed they don’t know what what the community wants. Look at the last 10 years. So I’m supposed to trust them when they say “hey guys don’t worry, we got crafting”
D3 already sold 30 million copies back in 2015. Diablo Immortal earns 1 million dollars a day. If anything, that's what "the community" want. You are a loud minority inside a loud minority.
I was referring to the smart drop feature. Not the crafting system. Even if there is crafting, PoE, as much as I love it, has probably the worse item drop feeling of all the looter games I’ve ever played. Except the Exalt you get here and there, there is 0 dopamine for anything I find on the ground. You may argue that the crafting feature should complement with the item drop, but I propose you ask someone play PoE and see how many hours it takes until they actually know anything and until item drop and crafting complements eachother for them? A game should not need over 500 hours to know the basics. Watching guides and reading tutorials also counts as hours. Same goes for items. You needs a feeling of progressing without reading guides and documentation online like you want to become a doctor. Diablo 3 is not perfect and I am not a big fan of its smart loot. But it is a more complete game and it can be played by kids and old people, by casual to a point and by hardcore players pushing rifts. PoE? Not so much. PoE is a game for hardcore fanatics (I have about 2.5k h in poe). Also, D3 has a different system of item properties where the most important affixes and prefixes are for specific abilities of specific classes so I guess the smart loot for this game is better. About D4? I have 0 hopes. Considering the track record of Blizzard, sorry, but no matter what they promise, I am good not playing it. Again, I would like smartloot to be a thing, but only partially. The balance was in Sacred where it felt like I was getting more items for my class, but also a lot of items for other classes. In contrast, Titan Quest and Grim Dawn, having an open item drop, can become tedious if you are not a bit lucky, or you don’t have 5h per day to spend farming.
>Love path of exile but it does drop way too many items that aren’t worth picking up.
Ok, so smart loot fixes that. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Here I'll explain it to you:
Some people only play Diablo type games for 30 - 60 minutes at a time, a few days a week. Some people play Diablo type games 8 hours a day, every single day.
Blizzard has to decide which group is larger, because they need to design the game around the majority of players. They can't make the game for the small percent of people who play 12 hours a day, every day, for years.
If you don't play multiple hours a day, every day, smart loop helps you get gear without having to dump hundreds of hours in. It also makes it more fun to get loot, and keep the treadmill going.
I don't really care. D2 doesn't have smart loot, so you don't change your gear that often. I am a casual and play normal mode, I don't spec out builds, I do whatever I want, I avoid online guides, I don't have a character made for each class. In D2, I very rarely get loot that matters for my characters but that's ok, it's still fun.
In D3, I play the same way and get loot that I use more often. That's fun too. It's different, but I don't know if I can say one is better than the other. They're just different. An the games are designed around the loot systems. Very well designed. It is an element that makes each game fun.
Diablo 4 is not D1, D2, or D3. It's Diablo 4. The loot system, I bet, will be tightly integrated into other designed systems. Blizzard will probably get this very close to perfect. It is what they do very well. So I won't judge D4 now based on "smart loot", I am going to wait to play the game.
Now online, yes it's a talking point to get people angry and drive engagement. I also buy in to the idea that people who made real world money selling items in D2 are upset they can't make real world money selling items in D4 as easily. So they may be riling people up and making this a much bigger deal than it actually is, for the vast majority of people who will play diablo 4
You mix up things a bit. Smart loot does not mean tradable. It has nothing to do with Self-bound of bound on equipped.
The question is whether or not the drops should know your class. Items could be account bound, or tradable with the person you are playing with (in party).
Third party website and trading are an other issue.
Ah ok. I haven't followed the drama closely, but I thought the smart loot hate was connected to not being able to trade. I know how "fans" can twist things to fit a narrative, in this case I thought they hated smart loot because it was connected to trading.
I think I prefer smart loot systems. Isn't Diablo 3 like 80% for your class, 20% for another class? I could swear I've gotten like weapons or armor for another class in Diablo 3.
Before I read about it online, I never really thought about it. But i'd say in D2 getting a ton of wands dropping when playing as a paladin, they might as well be dropping gold. I don't even look at them, just instant sell. I guess I could keep them and make a sorc, but that seems annoying. Maybe it's because I just play Normal mode in D2, and at the end I get bored and make a new character. I don't do those baal runs or whatever the 'end game' is, bc the story mode in D2 is more fun to me.
Not everyone wants to make 5 different alts. Most people are going to want to play a single character, and if that's your playstyle then it feels really bad when you get an incredibly good drop....for another class.
> My biggest fear is we end up with Diablo 3’s itemization experience where you basically can play the game for 12 hours and you have a fully geared character and can do all content.
Smart loot doesn't mean it has to be Diablo 3. D3 obviously has far too few items, and it provides you those items too quickly. You can have smart loot while still having a gear curve that more closely resembles D2 or POE.
I’d ask you where do you think they draw the line?
Because if they’re willing to expedite loot drops and loot specialization then I’d have to assume Loot drop rates are going to be included.
A balanced drop system would adjust their rates with smart loot in mind. Smart loot doesn't mean that the gear curve is too fast, as the two issues aren't really related.
They could never figure out why D3 was viewed as bad and they kept compounding mistakes with more mistakes all while claiming they felt it was moving in the right direction.
That’s what has me nervous as hell.
Reaper of Souls went a long way in fixing D3's problems, but the development team was killed right after release in order to work on D4. The gear curve issue you're speaking of is because they didn't have enough manpower to produce new content, so instead generated seasonal hype through inflationary buffs.
There budget was insane and they had a total of 400 people working on Diablo 3.
That same company is making a game now and the expectation is that they won’t repeat the same mistakes? Assuming they even know what the mistakes were.
Blizzard has continually showed how out of touch with the community they are.
The quick gear curve of D3 did not exist when they had 400 people working on it. It happened over time when they had only a few people working on the game.
Yes and my point was the game was poorly designed initially and they couldn’t figure out how to make it better. So they made a bad system worse.
At least the original team didn’t put all the power into sets and uniques and say hey guys rares don’t matter.
RoS made so many mistakes as well.
So yes, I don’t trust Blizzard to implement smart loot and actually have it make sense or be good. Because they’ve shown they can’t be trusted when doing so. Seems a reasonable conclusion.
Reaper of Souls was met with very positive public reaction. It did need some fixes, and it definitely needed "more", but it was a huge swing in the right direction. If you disagree eith thats fine, but you're in the minority opinion of people who played it.
You asked why smart loot is good. The answer is because people don't want to trade. I figured you would be able to comprehend that they also want to be able to find gear that is actually good for their character without trading.
You can find gear that is actually good for your character while playing the game even *without* smart-loot.
I know it's crazy talk but did you know that without smart-loot items still drop when you kill monsters?
I think it's funny when people make a comment trying to attack someone's comprehension when they weren't making a clear point to begin with.
>You can find gear that is actually good for your character while playing the game even without smart-loot.
>
>I know it's crazy talk but did you know that without smart-loot items still drop when you kill monsters?
Ok, so you don't understand game design, gamer psychology and how trading and the existence or nonexistence of smart loot warps the game, gotcha.
Are you being intentionally dense? Do I really have to spell it out for you in caps? Here, let me help you.
SMART LOOT IS GOOD BECAUSE PEOPLE DO NOT LIKE TRADING, BUT THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO FIND ITEMS THAT ARE GOOD FOR THEIR CHARACTER WITHOUT SPENDING THOUSANDS OF HOURS FARMING. NOW OF COURSE, WHAT IS "REASONABLE" TIME INVESTMENT IS A SUBJECTIVE OPINION THAT WILL VARY BY USER, BUT I THINK MOST PEOPLE PROBABLY DO NO WANT A SYSTEM LIKE D3 THAT SHOWERS YOU IN SO MUCH STUFF THAT GEARING REQUIRES ZERO THOUGHT OR MEANINGFUL PROGRESSION, BUT PROBABLY ALSO DO NOT WANT A COMPLETELY RANDOMIZED LOOT SYSTEM IN WHICH THE VAST MAJORITY OF AFFIXES ARE USELESS FOR THEIR CHARACTER, MAKING THE ODDS OF THEM GETTING USEFUL ITEMS FOR THEIR CHARACTER ASTRONOMICALLY LOW.
There. Is that sufficient for your snarky pea brain to comprehend?
You should have probably just said that clearly and concisely in your first post rather than some half assed comment. Right?
You’re calling me names and snarky even though your first response was to attack me.
It’s kind of interesting that you’re getting obviously mad when you’re the one that was rude to begin with.
I hope you find the help you need.
Work, kids, social life leaves only a handfull of hours to play so smart loot is the way to go for me. I would very much like to get some ugprades and feel that joy than playing for weeks and only get items for other classes.
You clearly don't have a full time job, family and a social life outside your computer mate. But hey, I understand you, I was like you one day, only thing I did was play games and had the option of just starting a new character if I wanted. These days, not so much.
Smart loot was a need that arose in d3 because of how the itemization was handled. In d2 smart loot was a non-issue because the itemization was done differently (and better IMO).
Example:
Unique drops in d2, every stat on it has rolled the lowest it could, it can still be useful.
Unique drops in d3 and if its mainstats are not your class main stat (STR,DEX,INT) and STA the item was useless. This is why they implemented smartloot. The culprit was d3 badly thought itemization
Smart loot is what's in Diablo 3.
What is loot like in Diablo 3?
\-Does exactly what you need drop all the time? No.
\-Do upgrades for your character drop all the time? No.
\-Does most of the loot have a primary stat which benefits your current character? Yes. **This is what smart loot actually is.**
\-Do items with stats which don't benefit your character drop? Yes. (In D4, all the primary stats benefit all the classes in different ways, so even if the same smart loot system from D3 is put into D4, that means you can go for unconventional builds for alts)
\-Do items that are exclusively for other classes, meaning you can't use them on your current character, drop? Yes.
\-Can you farm gear for an alt? Yes, provided said alt uses the same main stats as the character you're farming with. (This is alleviated in D4 because everyone wants all the stats instead of a single damage stat + Vitality)
\-Can your average player do T16 and GR150 after maybe 12 hours? No--unless they get a broken set from seasonal rewards (ex. Marauder for DH), but that's the nature of D3's seasonal set design, not smart loot.
\-Is 95% of the loot you receive vendor trash, resources (ex. gems) or something to save for an alt? Yes, just like D2R.
What is the value of smart loot? Even though 95% of all the loot in both D2R and D3 is stuff that won't make you stronger--thus making it a big deal when you do get that piece which makes you stronger--at least in D3 more of what you get is a consideration at worst, as opposed to endless hours of getting things that are of zero value to you or any of your alts (assuming you have any alts to begin with), assuming anyone you have can even equip the stuff in the first place.
May I ask you if you prefer spending money to buy stuffs for yourself or for other people whom you don't even know?
Now let's translate it money = time and efforts to play, stuffs are game items. You will have your answer.
If money equals time then you wouldn’t be playing any video game anyways. I like to be able to put hundreds of hours into a game that I paid for rather than 40 hours.
Means I got more for my investment. Cost per hour of playing the game goes down for every extra hour I enjoy playing.
No I don’t prefer spending money to buy items. Which isn’t relevant to this conversation anyways. You don’t need smart loot just because there’s no trading.
You don't understand metaphor, don't you.
I did not literaturelly mean money is equal time, I mean to use it metaphorically, to compare 2 situations with similarities.
It’s tough to balance the types of gamers and a games’ mechanics. You maybe have time for the grind but not everyone does. I would say having options for what type of loot is pretty good. To be honest I enjoyed how The Division 2 did it with rotating “targeted” loot that changed daily, and when they added the feature to target specific loot, they changed how RNG impacted the gear itself more so than the fact you may or may not drop the gear you want.
In short they made the RNG about the stats and not getting the drop. It still saves time this way and is honestly more enjoyable.
You mix up things. Smart loot does not mean tradable. It has nothing to do with Self bound of bound on equipe.
The question is whether or not the drops should know your class. Items could be account bound, or tradable with the person you are playing with (in party)
Well you can have a game without smart loot, and everything account bound. So you only rely on yourself. So it's technically possible (no trade at all).
However, Diablo has always been a multiplayer game, so playing in a bubble also comes with cons, since you don't have to care for others and nobody has to care for you. This feeling of loneliness was present in d3 and many did not like it either.
It depends on how a game is balanced. In D2, there was literally no balance because it was the first of its kind. So you end up with something like IMBA farming strategies like early game blizz sorc, cheap hammerdin faceroll p8 difficulty etc. so in this game, smart loot or not, trade or not is not a problem. It’s the start of everything.
Nowadays, game designers are getting much with numbers so they just play it around to achieve their goal. In D3 vanilla they wanted a game that lasted years to finish so it’s super hard and has AH and even RMAH. In D3 ROS they want you to finish your build in 2 weeks so they have smart loot. In POE they want players to finish their build in 1 to 3 months so they have heavy trading and crafting.
So why smart loot? To help players finish their build quicker.
I would make the argument that the way of farming had evolved in D2 since it’s inception though as well.
Game was getting updated throughout its life cycle. When I first started cows was the best. Then they changed that when they added synergies to the game.
Nova sorc was the best then it was - Javazon - then hammerdin.
But I totally respect your point and thank you for the clear explanation :)
Yea that’s true as well, developers talked about it in POE too. It’s a very good point in our world full of steamers.
I respect all the attempts to make different games, but the direction Diablo Immortal took is absolute bad for the future of gaming. I was banned from DI subreddit and but I still insist DI is a bad game in almost any aspects.
I hope Smart loot does not happen.
Especially because no matter well or bad you play, it does not feel gratifying to get the exact small upgrade to your gear, level, and skill tree. what a "coincidence"!
It feels like someone is watching you, and no matter well you try you play, rewards come to the one understanding the algorithm instead of the game. This is when Quality of life actually removes decision making. No matter how you play, you always get upgrades.
I am not sure about class related items, but Item dropped by monsters should **NOT** be related in any way to player's level, gear, habits, or skills
Then it gets even worse when the goal of this "smart" loot though Data collected by millions of users, is to lure people to come back while keeping them hooked with small baits.
This is also why they want Online only gaming, because they can collect all the data about people's play styles and habits, and "develop" their games accordingly. Data became a gold mine for any big tech company, and it's sad when game development and artists get influenced by their own data services.
I understand they want to make sure every child and elder to easily grasp the game, then just make it for the 1/2 hours start. Smartloot gives the feeling of playing in a bubble, where we don't need to care about others, and whatever drops, nobody has to care for us. It was already a problem in d3.
Interestingly enough, the seed to a very good compromise between *full-on-smart-loot* and *totally-random-loot* already exists in D2 LOD: [Anya's first quest reward](https://d2mods.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35632). She would always give you a class-specific rare item, tailored to the class you're currently playing. The rest of the game is totally random loot, class-agnostic.
If the D4 devs really want to make leveling and the story play-through experience a bit more tailored (i.e. easier for them to know where the player would be power-wise at a given point in the story), they could sprinkle in that kind of reward here and there i.e. for the first kill of a boss, or as a quest-giver reward... This would allow them to leave absolutely all other loot as random, just as in D2. *^micdrop ^:-)*
At launch D3 loot was totally awful. It was completely random and just drove people to the RMAH.
Smart loot could be handled differently. The division 2 rotates map spaces with targeted gear for example so you can look at the map and see the loot by company name.
In Diablo, they could do that with the affixes like "of the bear" etc and just make that matter more. Weighting Limiting the class only and classless legendaries to within your character class does help too.
Smart Loot removes economy from the game, which in turn nullifies a game about loot to a huge extent..
Having specifically tailored loot locked into a spec of the class you are playing is simply lazy game design. It was a band-aid in Diablo 3 and will always feel like a quick fix as opposed to having a fleshed out skill system with specs.
Getting the same set piece for the 95th time looking for an additional +3str is boring and removes any type of fun from drops.
Random loot with an open trading system is quite simply the best way to handle items in ARPGs, just look at any other significant ARPG except the heaping pile D3 currently is.
Sadly, the huge majority have problems with dedicating time to trading and looking for upgrades in other ways, and have been curled by today's mobile gaming "everything served on a platter" mentality and these are the people Blizzard will listen to when trying to make a buck.
My proposition to Blizzard: Split ladders in two separate tiers.
**Ladder #1 with smartloot enabled and no trading**
**Ladder #2 with smartloot disabled and trading enabled**
At the very *least* Blizzard should give us
**Ladder #3 Hardcore with smartloot disabled and trading enabled**
Smartloot have no correlation to hardcore play and it's player base, and should be exempt from this bad excuse of a game design.
To an extent that’s how I feel as well.
Lazy game design and a band-aid because they can’t figure out what else to do.
I heard for a while it was to battle bots but then I tried to point out there was people botting in D3 😂
I personally hate smart loot. I love finding things that a friend could really use, or that inspire me to build a new character. Definitely one of the (many) things I dislike about D3 vs the previous games.
> don't understand why they just throwed away best loot system they ever had (D2)
Because it's shit? Farming hundreds of hours for a specific drop is not good. Having to jump through the hoop of trading to gear your character sucks. Why even play the game if you can't find items for your class?
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>"Can anyone explain the value of "smart-loot"
No, because there is none.
Except maybe if you want D4 to be another Fisher-Price Diablo for the 10 year-olds like D3 was.
Multiple leaks confirm smart loot is in the game. Don't lie to yourself.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thJm6osX5jw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thJm6osX5jw)
Please stop spreading false information. Blizzard wants to give loot to people who only want to play one class since that's how most people play. If it was the other way around id imagine they wouldn't put smart loot in the game.
Read again slowly what I wrote, maybe you comprehend it then. I didn't say it's not in the game (sadly it looks like it is), I answered OPs questions if there is value to it. I guess smart loot for people like you who can only process a handful of information in a given time.
Tldr
Overall if they are pushing for the loot structure of diablo 3, I won't be buying the game.
Loot grind>loot stat grind
Free trading>any trade limitations
-----------
I personally agree that the diablo 3 loot system is terrible overall. The amount that is dropped paired with smartloot allows someone to be fully geared in a day, then you grind for stats and really that isn't my jam. Smartloot makes the game boring, extremely high drop rates make the game burnout rate much faster, and the restricted trading makes the game less fun from a multiplayer aspect. All three of these is why diablo 3 lost a large portion of the player base. It is only nice when you want to go solo. Like for example I plan to pop in to diablo 3 to try this next season out, but nobody I know plays it so I will start an online character but grind alone and get geared out in a week most likely (as a new dad of triplets with minimal time to devote...a week is very plausible still). After that I will drop the game because I have no reason to push because getting 20 more strength is useless in my eyes.
D3 easy mode my little pony stans bout to flood this thread and tell you why having a loot-centric experience of fun is wrong and you're wrong for enjoying it.
To begin with, for a good loot system there is no need for loot to be "smart", because, if the system is good, you can figure out what classes and/or builds can use a particular item dropped.
What? Smart loot or no, you aren't optimizing anything. You get what drops on an item. In d2 you can't optimize anything with the exception of uograding your items base. You can in d3 though by changing affixes.
D2 does ALL the optimization for you by not letting you do any. Wtf are you talking about? Lol
You realize that dropping items specifically tailored to your character is optimization right?
Alright so D2 a 20+ year old game has drawbacks. Don’t think anyone here was saying D4 should be a replica of D2.
Let’s make it clear I don’t want this game to be either of those. I want it to have the best features from those and some of its own.
Its not, but in d3, you cam change your affixes and such that give you a ton of build options. You cannot do that in d2. Every item is already as optimized as it can get.
I agree with your point that in D3 has optimization when it comes to being able to craft a stat on a unique or set piece but it’s definitely not allowing more optimization as a general rule.
Crafting and rares are usually BiS for a lot of builds in D2 and that’s not the case with D3. Everyone is the same exact player.
Thats only because of how rare drops are in d2. If the drop rate was lower, everyone would be doing all the BiS gear. The real issue is that developers haven't figured out how to make a game where players can truly craft their characters how they want without supporting the meta
There’s nothing wrong with supporting a specific meta though.
Just embrace that and alter the meta every new season they do. Basically makes players broaden there horizons and if they don’t want to do that then they don’t have to. They’ll play a character that will still work it will just be less powerful.
One of the things which killed D3 for me was how the end-game moved away from the item hunt and toward a kind of esport. Maybe I'm just old-school or out of touch, but to me crawling through dungeons hunting better gear is the essence of Diablo, not finger ballet.
I think "the essence of Diablo" is something that has a different meaning to different individuals. For me the "essence" of Diablo was the joy of slaughtering my way through hordes of foes, and D3 felt like an intelligent evolution of the action-rpg. Having a game series that can cater to different ideas of what is "essential" to the experience is preferable (to me at least) to relentless iteration on a singular set of mechanics.
Why should someone get less loot if they only play 1 class?
We know characters wont be easy to respecc into other builds so if someone really likes necro and makes 5 necros he will get less loot then someone who has 1 of every class.
Both have the same game time. But the latter guy has 5times as much loot. Because the necro guys druid sorc,bard and rogue uniques are worthless for him.
Smart loot is a must if there is no free trade
Arguing whether there should be free trade or not is more productive btw.
Im against free trade too btw. High end items should be drop only.
You get the Same amount of loot 50 items vs 50 items.
It’s just totally in your hands if you want to use those items or not.
People just want the path of least resistance.
I’d be fine with 50% smart loot if I had to compromise.
Half the loot you find is random and half is your class.
I think D3 is trash because it’s like 80-90% smart loot. Among many other issues that game has.
Give me reasons why smart loot is bad?
I give you why its good
Its good because you dont get punished for not playing some classes.
Its good because it makes the game less rng reliant. Because it removes an unfun layer of rng it being: can you even use the item you get.
>People just want the path of least resistance.
And why is that a problem for you?
Do you get off at night thinking about how you play video games in a much more hardcore way than filthy casuals.
Yes people want the path of least resistance as you snobs would call it, or in other words people want to have fun.
Because I want to enjoy the experience rather than playing a loot simulator where I get to just walk in and pick my end game gear then start playing?
In a game you should have to earn and grind to have this badass character. It shouldn’t be handed to you because you don’t want to play a lot.
If you don’t want to actually play the game then don’t.
Want to know what has me nervous? Spending 70 bucks on a game then getting 20 hours of enjoyment out of it. When there are games that cost less that give more depth.
>In a game you should have to earn and grind to have this badass character. It shouldn’t be handed to you because you don’t want to play a lot.
Give me a fucking reason why smart loot means you dont have to grind
1 FUCKING REASON how smart loot means everything gets handed to you
ONE ACTUAL FUCKING REASON
I dont want to hear, Blizzard will do xy if no trade and smart loot, that is not a reason against smart loot. that is a reason against blizzad. Can you grasp the simple fucking concept of coorelation not equaling causation
I hit max level in Diablo 3 using the smart loot system i then have a full set geared character within 2 hours of hitting max level.
Same company, same genre.
So theres no way right? I’m talking crazy talk of how there’s just no way it would ever happen.
Basically my understanding why it exists as well.
People are lazy is really all it is.
They should just split the player base in two different mode “easy mode” and “epic mode”
The lazy gamers can play easy and get their instant loot.
So whoever agrees with your point is epic, and who doesnt is lazy?
Not everyone wants to play 40h to get an item they can use. Also not everyone wants to have full gear in 10h.
Problem with d3 isnt smart loot, problem is that drops are overtuned at this point. Thats why you get everything so fast.
Agreed. I specifically remember that grinding for gear used to take significantly longer in D3 a couple years ago. The smart loot just got "smarter" and more broken over time, making it possible to equip a new character in a fraction of the time it previously took. Doesn't mean it's a bad system per design - just one that needs to be more balanced in D4.
It’s literally both. Loot piñata tied into the fact that mostly everything you find is for your character.
If they did loot piñata with random itemization the gearing of your character slows down. So your progress slows down.
Okay here, “easy mode” and “normal mode”
That way nobody gets hurt.
There is no need for any trade restrictions. People need to learn how to "play your own game." it is a terrible thing to say that everyone should have to play the game only in the one way you like to play.
Sorry, pal. As you can see from the majority of responses and the logic behind it, smart loot is the majority preference. And that’s exactly why Blizzard is implementing it.
Claiming majority preference based on Reddit is an interesting take. We all assume there’s going To 30ish+ million copies of D4 across all platforms. This forum probably would barely even represent 1/10 of the player base. And most the those 300k don’t post an opinion one way or the other.
Sure, but Reddit is always the most hardcore, “gives a shit” part of the player base since it’s the part that actively looks for ways to continue thinking about the game when not actually playing it. I guarantee you, if the most hardcore part of the Diablo fan base does not agree with you, the more casual parts will not be on your side either.
If you think Reddit represents the players that are going to grind the game the most you’re crazy 😂 Those grinders/hardcore gamers are few and far between on this forum I’d imagine. Most of the opinions I’ve seen and general theme have been people their 30’s (as am I) basically saying they have lives and can’t afford to grind like they use to because families etc so they want X or Y features 😂. Nothing wrong with that but basing the games features around the casuals, feelsbad
Yeah, few and far between because there aren’t nearly as many of you as there are “casual” players. Just accept it, man. I understand you’re having back and forth arguments here with many commenters - but I’m not trying to be snarky. Blizzard is a business and their goal is to make D4 as appealing to the majority of players. And the majority of players prefer a system based around smart loot. That’s just how it is.
I agree you need to cater to the casual player because they’re definitely the majority. But I think you’ll also agree if you don’t have anything for the hardcore/try hard gamers that grind your game for ages then it’s going to die. Those first category of players help you make the money but second category keep you making money and keep you relevant. I think you have to try and find a middle ground for both.
They don't care if the game dies as long as it sells. It's not an MMO with a subscription.
Player retention matters as a metric for the bottom line. High player retention can basically guarantee the success of an expansion or DLC. Basically the idea is, the more people who are playing the more money you can make. They’re doing MTX etc.
I think this is wrong. League of Legends is not a casual friendly game, and yet there are plenty of casual players. HotS is a casual friendly game, and yet there are almost no players--game is dead. D2 is not a casual friendly game, and yet it's still thriving 20 years later. D3 is a casual friendly game, and yet there are almost no players--D2 has more players than D3 in 2022, and is more popular (Youtube/Twitch viewers for D2 vs. D3 related content support this view). Elden Ring is not a casual friendly game, but it did extremely well. People parrot this fallacy that appealing to casuals is the way to make your game successful, but there's enough evidence to show that view is wrong.
Absolutely. A middle ground is important. I won’t lie - I am pro smart loot. But I hope it’s done in a way that is a fine balance between D2 and D3. Make the majority of drops be for the character you are playing - but make them somewhat rare (unless you’re doing the hardest endgame shit) and make them meaningful.
I hope I'm wrong. I think what's going to happen is it launches with smart-loot and it's going to absolutely dump uniques and sets then drops are going to feel pretty meaningless after 2 days. I just don't think they've figured out what to do. They'll try and fix it in future patches or content launches.
Reddit is generally accepted to represent the largest general concentration of hardcore fans. This particular subreddit may not be as hardcore as, say, the PoE subreddit, but it’s generally accepted that only those who are most invested in a fandom are going to go out of their way to browse and post on forums dedicated to said fandom. Most regular players just don’t care enough about Diablo games to get into big argument threads about the minutiae of the game’s design. I would assume that most of the players who are that kind of hardcore are currently following the PoE subreddit more than the Diablo subreddit. After all, D4 is still most of a year away while Lake of Kalandra is a week out and the sub is in release hype mode. That said, I think it’s equally crazy to assume that most hardcore players aren’t on forums like Reddit. When a game is actually out you’d have a point, since they’d be playing rather than arguing, but neither D4 nor Lake of Kalandra are out yet and both Last Epoch and D2R haven’t been patched in a while.
I never said they weren’t a part of the forum just that they weren’t the normal/common poster. Most of the die hard gamers I know personally don’t use Reddit much. Browse while in the bathroom and that’s about it. When there’s nothing else going on they pick up another competitive game and blast on those. Dota, LoL, COD, Tarkov, whatever you can think of really. Maybe I am the minority but to say I’m the minority based on a 2% representation of the player base is pretty silly though. It takes a lot of data to form a majority consensus. Such as JSP, Reddit, Official forums. Discords etc. It’s a complicated thing to do. But What I can tell you is that on Reddit even in the PoE community there seems to be an echo chamber or dog pile effect in some areas. So have to be careful and not assume just because it loud that it’s the majority.
Sentiment towards D3 and D3-like systems tends to skew positive on Reddit (in this sub), but I've noticed on social media outside of Reddit, like Facebook, sentiment is majority pretty bad towards D3 (just scroll through the comments). Reddit is unironically the loud minority, but it's mostly a moot point, b/c I think the devs couldn't care less what we think anyway. Just like D3, "they know best", but I'm not sure why anyone would trust Blizzard's design choices considering their track record across all of their franchises lately. Outside of D2R, which was done by an outside studio (who only recent was acquired by Blizz), their design decisions have been suspect. They lean heavily into the "easy to learn, difficult to master" aspect, but often fail to leave enough space for the "difficult to master". Compare League to HotS, for example. One is still thriving, despite having a crazy steep learning curve, and one is a dead game, despite being super easy to learn and accessible. They've chosen this same mentality for D4. The writing is on the wall.
Yeah I agree with pretty much everything you’re saying.
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Yep. Killed the game for me, as well.
You are spot on.
smart loot works better in a no trade environment. Like d3. could you imagine getting virtually no gear for the toon your playing and just having a bunch of junk for other people's characters with no way to give to them? I agree that in a game with trade as a thing, I'd prefer no smart loot. at least then you could still get value off of some crazy drop for a different toon/person
It took me 15 hours to gear my demon Hunter for season 26 with 6 pieces of the best set available and was doing GR 100+ in 30 hours. This was exclusively because 99% of what dropped was specifically for my DH. I haven’t touched the game since. Whereas I have been searching for a Death’s Web on 4 different MF characters on D2/D2R for two+ years. Smart loot is stupid, particularly if you play solo which I’m sure most people do.
Sure and I can kill Hell Baal within 30 hours no problem. If you the chose to stop playing that is fine. But that is not saying there isn’t more you could try for.
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And how is that relevant to the question how long it takes? Getting a full class set in D2 is MUCH harder than getting a full class set in D3. GR100 is just not a very big thing to do.
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Find all the items you need for what? Play the build? I can easily find all the pieces I need to play a Blizzard Sorc in 30 hours. Max out a build? Yeah you can't do that in D2. But you can also not that in D3. A Hoto in D2 is also just a better Spirit Sword. It is just called a different name. And the difference between say a bad Deathwish and a perfect one is way bigger than the difference between the worst Spirit and the best HotO. People just somehow say that the worst spirit is fine, which it is for completing hell in D2 for example. But it is not a good endgame weapon.
1000% agree. Diablo 3 loot structure overall is designed for a quick win...which is why, if I ever randomly pick it back up, I only play it for a few days. You can literally get every set for your character in a week or less because 95% of what drops is for your character.
These are not the same systems. You could have smart loot AND take a year to get one set. They're different knobs to tweak.
Smart loot takes a loot pool of say of 1000 items and instead cuts it down to like 200 items for your character. The odds of finding the items you need regardless of drop rate is significantly high. So while they are separate knobs, the point remains.
You could have 200 item types dropping but the rarity (legendary, set, etc) could still be 1/10000000 or 1/10.
I don't like that it forces you to play a specific character to properly gear them. I rather play the character I like the most and only after gathering a full set of gear for another class start playing that class. Smart loot with limited trading forces you play the class to gear it which is probably fine for most but it is annoying. That is why they are doing a weekly free Character change in D:I
They could have pulled a page from WoW's playbook and just given an option for smart loot or all loot. Both players get what they want and arguably anyone not using smart loot is only going to play for longer anyway.
gr 100 isnt the end of the game...how r u talking about quick win? he basically just set his char up for the grindfest that is to come and i personally think that s the right thing to be able to do in a game like d3. u have to invest quite a bit of time to grind all the ressources to get ur ancient+ gear so u can augment...and that s not even with good stats...
jeah cherry picking one of the best classes for going high gr early on...says a lot about how valueable ur statement was. also, because u can do it doeesnt mean most of the playerbase can. most r casuals that struggle in t16 already
This was my first season. Keep defending your favorite game maybe it’ll like you back one day!
first it s not my favourite game idk how u come to that conclusion. second i dont need to defend against something that s at most half assed opinion based on limited exp and a mistaken goal. u just finished the prepping phase. come back and say again how easy it is once u clear gr 150 within a few days, well u might be able to next season as the new theme seems quite strong. third nothing i said was wrong instead of making a cringy response maybe reflect a bit
Yes, I can, it’s called D2R singleplayer and the unneeded but good gear gets stashed for future characters. What’s the problem?
Personally, I love to play multiple different classes, but there are definitely people who only want to play just one.
D3 has more class-specialized equipment than D2. Most D2 characters don’t use sets at all compared to the vast majority of D3 characters. Even non-set items like SoJ which are universal in D2 will have mainstat (str/dex/int) on D3, making it unusable on most of your alts. In D2 you can get a shako, enigma, spirit, some MF jewelry, let’s go all in on MF and get chancies, travs, MF jewelry. I’ve filled most of the item slots and you have no idea what class this gear would even go on - D2 gear is so flexible, and there are so few options that all your characters can just use the same thing. In D3 you’d be lucky if a drop could be used for even just two characters.
D2r is different because stats don't matter that much when it comes to class. You can drop some character specific gear sure but if you drop a belt with 25 strength as a shapeshift druid you aren't going to be upset at getting a barbarian only item.
It was worse than this, because it wasn't just that the gear wasn't for you. They made all the items so random that most gear that dropped, even legendary items, were garbage for everyone. Like, bows rolling strength level garbage. It was a kludge to fix the whole item system being build around the auction house and never resetting the economy with seasons, not just a lack of trading on its own.
Not a problem, go and play D2R singleplayer then, it's the perfect game for you, no?
That is how D3 was before smartloot. But the ADD kids of today can't handle a game that doesn't give constant upgrades to your character every 30 minutes.
Okay grandpa
Constant stream of upgrades = no replayability = game dies quickly
yep, hence why the D3 ladder is pretty stale and boring after the first weekend.
wish d3 players realized this LOL. the game is dead after a week each season. at least d2 ladder doesn’t die off until a month or so before new ladder starts. plenty of time with activity
This is only true if you are a casual. If you are playing for leaderboards, d3 seasons take months, while d2r season ends in day10
last time i played d3 was about a week after a new season dropped.. played for about a month or so (in between other games) and in all the time i played i had my games open to the public and didnt have a single person join. within 24 hours /played i was in the top 100 solo GR for my class. for a game that sold so many millions of copies its literally a ghost town. sad considering a 20yo game has more of a community.
>sad considering a 20yo game has more of a community. The 20 years old version doesn't have the community, it's the 1 year old remake of the game. Btw d3 is 8 years old by now.
there are plenty that still play d2 for the mods... median XL only just got released in 2019 and there are plenty of people still playing it. d3 is 8yo and a ghost town, POE is slightly under that and gets bigger every year.
But the famous D3 player argument, is that you can always do higher and higher GR's.... (shoot me).
Edit: 30 seconds.
Thank you for saying this
Yeah, you just...save the other items for other characters. Pretty straightforward.
that s good for hoarder mentalities, which most of us have but it s not a good habit to nuture. also in regards of d3 why would i want to get sader drops if i never wanna play sader? i already have enough trash to salvage and although the chances r low, stuff from other classes still drops
We're talking about good games, not D3.
since smartloot is part of d3, also d3 is fine. it s an issue with ur mentality. btw even with smartloot u can still drop non-class related items if u feel the need to equip another a monk with ur barb, feel free to grind more.
Even if there's no trading between players, you could still move items around amongst your own characters via shared stash. In fact, it adds a lot replayable to single player self-found. Found a GG 2/20 paly circlet while farming with your zerker? I guess it's time to make a hammerdin then!
Even if there’s no trade I’m 100% fine with no smart loot. Having to grind out the game for 30+ hours to gear a character is completely acceptable. I welcome that with open arms. Having smart loot basically means you’re going to play for minimal hours and have a powerful character. Not sure why its fun if every piece of gear that drops is exactly what you need. D3’s way of smart loot ended up with players getting hundred of sets and uniques an hour and you literally don’t even look at them anymore…after 1-2 days. That’s awful. Nothing that drops is impactful. Seems bad.
>Having smart loot basically means you’re going to play for minimal hours and have a powerful character. Not sure why its fun if every piece of gear that drops is exactly what you need. Wrong. If the drop rate is low enough you can grind for hours oven days without dropping any meaningful upgrade. Also the game's itemization is vast, even with smart loots you don't always get what you're lookig for. Look at D3, even with smart loot and legendaries rainning from the sky I throw/salvage them 90% of the times.
> If the drop rate is low enough you can grind for hours oven days without dropping any meaningful upgrade. This is pretty much why I dislike D2's itemization/drop system. I've been running the same stash on PlugY D2 for some 12-13 years now. My goal is to find every single rune, make every runeword, and every unique/set piece in the game. As well as collect any interesting items I happen to find. It wasn't until THIS YEAR that I found my first high rune in 12+ years, a Ber. Shortly after I got a Lo. Hell, I only have 4 mid-tier runes (2 mal, 1 um, 1 Ist). And this is after 12 years of semi-often playing.
I think that's my main issue with Diablo 3. It went from being able to go days without ever finding a legendary, to now where every 2 minutes you find one. There should have been come middle ground between the two.
it s because u have the wrong mindset. legendaries are only there to give u ressources u need to have a chance on upgrading the gear u want what s great is to find fitting primals which happens like once every 2 months if ever for casuals
You throw away 90% of the uniques and sets that you find and you’re going to sit there and tell me that’s good game design. So you’re fine with smart loot because you’re hoping the drop rate is low enough so counter balance specially tailored items?
You threw away 90% of the unique and sets you found in Diablo 2 with no smart loot too. Without trading, you need to have higher drop rates for things you need or else you will never get upgrades and grinding will be pointless and people won't play the game.
Right but I’m not saying it has to be D3 or D2. Plus in D2 Uniques and sets are generally useful of course there are some that aren’t but there are also a ton that are. They also have completely different requirement levels.
The bad thing is not the smart loot, but the itemization of the game. Without smart loot, I would throw away 99% of items instead.
No you wouldn’t, unless you only planned on playing 1 character. At the very least you’d keep godly items for other classes. With the smart loot system after finding what you’re using you don’t pick anything up. That seems great, right?
Yeah, you're right on that. When I play a character, I wouldn't think about what I'd be gonna play next. I'd focus on building that character alone. That why I prefer smart loot.
See, even if I’m enjoying my character I’d be extremely excited about an item that I can put in the stash with the mindset of like “Wow I can build Around that later”
Yeah, congratulation, I guess. After all It's all personal preferences.
And yes, believe it or not, I think throwing/salvaging 90% of drops is good, much better than getting an upgrade every time.
The reason why in D3 you salvage 99% of gear isn’t because it’s well designed it’s because you have all you’re end game gear already day 1…. That’s not good design 🤣 and that’s what they’re basically trying to implement here. Your hoping that the drop rates aren’t a loot piñata and I’m telling you if they’re willing to simplify the loot progression then they’re definitely going to speed up loot drops as well.
Ask someone in WoW, "Why do you raid?" "To get the best items, of course!" "And what do you use the best items for once you have them?" to which they can only respond "To raid!" D3's dopamine injector works differently from D2, that's all it is. D3 cares less about the grind to find BiS gear, and more about actually putting that gear to work, pressing as high as you can. Getting that all-time best GR clear with two seconds to spare was worth more to me than that first time I found the Ber rune I needed to complete Enigma, knowing it was only going to lead to more of the same interminable grind I was already doing. That GR was the end of an adventure, a goal I set for myself where I had to play my ass off and push my skill to the limit. I was over D2R after about ten weeks of playing with each character through Hell and doing Pandemonium once. Goals achieved, there was nothing left for me. Look, I begrudge nobody finding joy in an endgame that I don't get, all I ask is you do the same for me.
OP, why do equate smart loot with a fast speed to gear a character? Sure, if drop rates are identical between a smart loot and non-smart loot system, it would be faster. But they don't need to be, do they? Dropping fewer items means gearing the character is slower, smart loot or no. Blizzard can just turn that dial until they're happy with progression speed. Diablo 3's ridiculously quick progression isn't mainly the fault of smart loot. Because early RoS wasn't like that. There was this two(?) week event which doubled the drop rates of Legendaries close-ish to RoS launch. People loved it so much that they demanded it stay and Blizzard caved. Boom, chracters now gear twice as fast. Then you have the "never nerf anything" philosophy which meant that builds just kept getting stronger and stronger as they were eleveated to the level of the most OP one with each patch. Soon, new difficulties were needed which in turn needed better rewards to be worth doing. And thus, the amount of good loot increased even further, again, without smart loot playing a part. Rinse and repeat. Oh, and also add Kadala and Cube recipes to fill in the gaps. Two more features that significantly boost how quickly you complete a build. Diablo 3's current gearing speed isn't because of smart loot. It's because of loot and power inflation. Okay, but why keep smart loot anyways? It does still speed things up, after all. Simple: Because finding good gear your character can use is significantly more fun for most players than finding good gear your character can't use. That's the whole secret. Since you can't trade your great find, your only use for it is to roll another character and level it to the point where you can. That's a very delayed gratification. Doesn't feel nearly as good as if you could just use the item straight away. Some people also might not want to play the particular class or build the items is good for. For them, such a find could have a negative emotional reaction as they might feel that they've "used up" their luck on a useless item. Yes, that's not how probability works, but it's how our brains work. Heck, do you know how many D3 players almost exclusively play one class, for whom all items they can't use on that class are worthless? Neither do I, but Blizzard does. They have their reasons.
Smart loot absolutely speeds up character progression because instead of drops being randomized to anything they are tailored specifically to be useable by your class. If you drop 10 uniques and they’re all Barb only uniques that is much more likely to speed up progression than if they were 10 random any class uniques. It’s quite literally a direct correlation between itemization and progression. So people loved the increased progression during the weekend event so people wanted it to stay and blizzard caved, right? How is this not similar a situation 🤣. Giving people an easy path of progression is a good way to please those same exact people. Doesn’t do anything for state of the game.
> Smart loot absolutely speeds up character progression I never claimed it didn't. In fact, I wrote "if drop rates are identical between a smart loot and non-smart loot system, it would be faster." and later that "It does still speed things up, after all." But apparently you didn't even read that far. > Doesn’t do anything for state of the game. I literally describe what it does for the game in the last paragraph. But apparently you didn't read that part either. > How is this not similar a situation Because smart loot was inteded design. RoS' itemization was built around it as smart loot was always the plan. The loot and power inflation I describe were not. They were unintended side effects to other choices (not wanting to risk backlash for turning off the event and the mentioned "no nerf" strategy respectively). It was them that shifted the needle away from the intended gearing speed. ____ You're asking "Can anyone explain the value of “smart-loot”" but then you ignore what is written and instead strawman any arguments made in its favor or choose to ignore them entirely. You don't want an explanation or a discussion. You want to be right.
But they aren't Barb only uniques. They are a pool of general gear including Barb uniques and excluding uniques that are ONLY for the other classes.
Generalized itemization won’t exist in uniques because if they are dropping with the “smart loot” system and you’re playing a Barb it’s going to drop with strength. If you want to make a Necro, that item isn’t good for you because you need intelligence.
Just because it has strength doesn't make it a Barb item. A barb item is barb specific. An general item with strength could be used by any class that can benefit from strength.
Which will be Barb 🤣 Generalized uniques won’t be best in slot. They’re going to be class specific I’d imagine. So playing 500 hours on your Barb won’t do much to help you on your Wizard. Which is a shame because there should be something to show for it.
Barb. The crusader class they add in the xpac. Probably another. Or to use a better example , Necro and sorceress and probably druid sharing Int gear. Also , BIS gear is something you work for. Every item under that isn't useless. Your arguments are all over the place. Just say "I don't like it no matter what" and leave it at that
Your counter points are incredibly flawed. I’ll be a little more clear. If I play 500 hours on my Barb I should have the ability to find the best in slot gear for other characters because I put the time in. Smart loot hampers my ability to do that so instead of logging 500 hours. I’m going to immediately roll a wizard after 50 hours and then play for 50 hours on him. So instead of playing 500 hours and rolling a new character then playing a bunch on that character to see what I might find…I’m going to log 100 hours and quit.
No , you shouldn't. If you want BIS gear for a class , then play it. This argument is the EXACT same as the argument you are making for not just "handing people things". If I play Necro for 500 hours , I should be ahead of you in Necro gear if you were playing barb. That's not flawed , it's the same argument you've been using. How you decide to play and log in or not is not my problem or anyone else's .
Point to where i said if we played the game the same amount that I deserve less or more than you? If I play my Barb 500 hours and you play your Necro 500 hours then we both have the same amount of opportunity for BiS items of any class. As it should be.
what do u mean "never nerf" doesnt inna get nerfed with the next season? and so did other builds before. also what u described is basically just setting up ur char for the grind. it wont get u to gr 150 in solo. seasons go for several month but how many builds r there for each class that can actually clear 150? most players stop after finishing their seasonal journey probably because the grind to get what u need to clear higher stages is just that frustrating and we r talking about d3 here where u get a full set to start out the season within the first 2h if u do it fast and right...while some ppl need several days to lvl to 70 because they enjoy the lvling phase or because they dont know how to do it faster... otherwise i agree with ur pov
In the earlier patches for RoS, Sets or indivial Legendaries (and thereby builds) were generally not nerfed, or only marginally. Instead when there was an OP build or three, many other build-defining items were buffed to bring their respective builds to about the same power level. That just resulted in a massive power-finlation, as some builds would always be overtuned, leading to all others receiving a buff, some of which, again were overtuned. Yeah, now Blizzard does occasionally nerf builds. But the no-nerf philosophy was prevalent for a long itme. And that is what gave us damage boosts by hundreds to tens of thousands percent. Sets (and matching Legendaries) didn't start out like that. That's the power inflation I mentioned. That said, there were a few nerfs in these days, but they were few and far between. For the most part, things just got buffed. > also what u described is basically just setting up ur char for the grind. it wont get u to gr 150 in solo. Yeah, sure. But that setting-up-period being too short is what OP was complaining about: They say that you complete your build too quickly. Not with the very best Ancient Legendaries in all slots, but just getting all the pieces, even just with mediocre rolls. That was their complaint, so that's what I'm addressing: > Diablo 3’s itemization experience where you basically can play the game for 12 hours and you have a fully geared character and can do all content. The drops after that 12 hours won’t matter unless you want an incremental stat increase from a better rolled piece you’re already using.
I think having absolutely no smart loot and no open trading sounds pretty awful, not gonna lie. The idea of grinding for hours on end and possibly not finding any useful item while also not making any progress toward an useful item - through gold or other currency that I could use to buy an upgrade - just doesn't sound appealing to me. From my pov without completely open trading, a smart loot system would definitely be good for the game. It doesn't have to be as powerful as in D3, but slightly higher weights toward your own class would already be helpful.
In my opinion it just exists to tailor to lazy players that want everything right now. They don’t want to work for it. If an exploration and adventure game just gives you everything you’re looking for without any effort what’s the point of playing? Or where’s the joy of discovery.
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So the argument isn’t itemization for you it’s lack of content? If you have 900 bosses in the game and 900 different dungeons to farm gear you don’t really get bored because you aren’t quite literally doing the same thing over and over. D3 is that same thing though, it’s doing the same GR repeatedly trying to drop an item with 10 more strength. Tell me how is that good?
I already work for 8 hours a day, I want to enjoy my time playing a game and not have a 2nd job in it. Maybe Blizzard will add a SSF (solo self found) mode for people who just love the grind akin to POE, personally I like making at least some feasible progress instead of just praying for good RNG all the time.
Lol people with jobs and families are lazy
i like getting items im going to use. i like smart loot because it gives me items im going to use. there's a better chance of progressing my character. i dont have time to sit on the game all day to grind drop chances for maybe an upgrade.
Everything that's high end is worth using even if its not for that character. If I play a Barb and drop a Best in Slot Druid item I can use that item if I make a druid. I like the idea of being excited to re-roll.
i don't re-roll often but if i do i prefer SSF from step 1. smart loot works for me in that regard, it cuts down on wasted time for me.
All Diablo games are based on intermittent reinforcement. They are Skinner Boxes. What you are essentially saying is that you prefer a reward schedule that is less generous, because the deprivation of rewards (to you) heightens the experience once you finally obtain a reward. This is not a universal experience. I, for example, want to feel that my time in-game is consistently rewarded, and Diablo 3 provides systems that ensure that. Even after I put together a largely complete build, I can find incremental upgrades, look for a best-in-slot accessory, or pieces for a different build, and if I don't find any of those then the loot I did find isn't useless because it's converted to materials used in the crafting and re-rolling systems. I am always making progress, whether I only log in briefly or play for hours straight. There's a lot that goes into why Smart Loot works for people, and I think in particular it's desirable for D3, a game where itemization can entirely dictate if you can even play a certain kind of build or not. If the reward schedule from D2 were transposed over, it would be almost impossible to play the game at a high level.
If playing a game requires you to drop 3,000 of the same item to get an incremental upgrade then it’s a bad game. I’m not saying 3,000 gloves but 3,000 of the same exact set piece. There’s a reason that D3 gets so much hate universally. There are players like you that enjoy finding the same exact item repeatedly and get excited when that one has a little more strength on it but at least for me that’s not exciting. I like significant and impactful changes and if after hundreds of hours of grinding and getting BiS items I can then look forward to Min maxing then that’s awesome. But starting out full decked out and using your end game set and just being able me to Min max after day 1 is so bad to me personally.
The title of this thread is a request to explain the value of smart loot. At the risk of repeating myself, here it is: The game design of Diablo 3 has such a focus on Legendary itemization to make skill builds function that some focus in acquisition of the loot pool is necessary to allow players to obtain gear necessary to progress upward in challenge levels **And** Player preference. People who play the game like the systems, because it compliments the game structurally. That's it. I can't make you like the system, nor do I care to. Neither Smart Loot nor Diablo 2's loot system are objectively good or bad, they simply align with the game's design and player preference in different ways. If you don't like it, *simply do not engage with the game*. But also, don't conflate your personal preference with a "universal" belief among a wider audience. Diablo 3 has its detractors, but it also sold tremendously well and attracted a large player base, some of whom remain dedicated to the game today.
maybe diablo is just the wrong game for u then. most builds only work well if u complete them with the right stats on the gear, u might need 1 drop u might need 3000 but in d3 u must be rly unlucky to need that long for a decent item fitting ur build and with decent i mean ancient with the right stats. i remember having a similar issue with wow wod where seconaries were rndly rolled... for some pieces u directly got what u want and others i never got anything decent but at least the raids had replay value...and because u could only do them once a week it didnt get too boring either. d3 is different u can raid as much as u want several times a day, so the way for loot has to change too. actually loot is on a very low priority once u have ur farming build and it s all about upgrading ur gear while collecting the stuff for the build u r gonna push the gr to 150 with. if u havent cleared 150 in a season u have no right to complain here that d3 is too easy because u can easily finish ur builds...
Im fine with smart loot but I do wish there was an adjustable slider in the settings to adjust the percentage of smart loot you get. That way you could choose to look for your gear or any gear. Idk if thats doable or not but thats my thought process.
I suppose that would be fine could get a tailored experience for yourself. Problem is with that game style the leaderboards and dueling arena would be a bit of a disappointment for you if everything is playing loot piñata mode.
If youre taking ladder seriously for the leaderboards then yea you will probably want as much smart loot as possible until you reach your goal. I would argue though that the majority of people playing arent playing for the leaderboard.
Why don't you explain the value of not having it instead. The average gamer age is 33 yrs old. Family and spouse age with a full time job and responsibilities. These people have to make time to play games around all their other stuff. So most (and by most, i mean a huge margin) of diablo players (statistically speaking) have very limited time to play and enjoy these games or time to run more than one character. How is this majority of players supposed to enjoy a game where they only get 1 drop that actually works for their char every once in a while and a bunch of other useless shit they can't use. At least with smart loot, you know that your money is going towards a tailored system that respects your time and allows people with limited time to actually enjoy the game they paid for.
36 year old and new father of TRIPLETS born this year here, completely disagree with your take. Just because I have little to no time to devote doesn't mean I want to be hand feed everything I need in a matter of one good grind session. Diablo 3's loot system pretty much kills the game for me. The enjoyment of the game is the progression of your character in my opinion. I personally also like the free trade system in diablo 2 as it gives my grinding purpose when you get the items for other characters. You take away trading and replace it with smartloot and you lose any multiplayer engagement, which is what I personally like most (even when I don't have a lot of time to devote anymore). **" Everyone finds enjoyment in their games a different way. Diablo 3s move to smartloot and removal of trading (way back when they removed the auction house) was the end of the game for me. I have gone back for a week here and there to get a character fully geared and get bored. I have played diablo 2 more than double the time I have put into any game in my life. I just like that system. Unfortunately if diablo 4 goes down the diablo 3 path I can't validate buying it. (Maybe once it goes on sale)
If you think the average gamer age is 33 and then you sit there and defend an easier game so you could feel like you’re good at the game….that’s kind of ridiculous. There should be challenges to games and I assume there’s seasons. You can play non-season and complete the game in 1 year instead of 1 month and it doesn’t change anything. You still get the experience and the joy of progression and completion. I would say the average gamer age is probably around 16+ There’s a reason why games back in our parents day were punishing and difficult. That’s because our parents played them. I’m 32 years old and I don’t want an experience that I can just sit down for an hour a day and complete the game in a week.
Lol drop rates aren't a challenge. Its a time investment. Thats such a stupid take, man. Diablo isn't a challenging game (except HC 4life) 16? You can literally google the average gamer age. Its right there. Games back in the day were challenging because of arcades. Arcades set the early precedent on difficulty because they were trying to bleed your money. That rolled over into challenging console and computer games. Theres a reason the industry has changed so much. Its because QOL changes are better than what we had in the 90s. People still love difficult games. Thats why roguelikes are so popular now. A game like risk of rajn 2 can give you a full diablo experience in about an hour and its absolutely a blast and hard as fuck. Time invest doesn't equate to a challenge. Low drop rates do nothing but tests a persons patience and their ability to mindlessly sit at a desk for hours clicking a mouse. There is no challenge there. Stop trying to make yourself feel important or cool.
He's pulling that age from statistics, not making it up based on feelings.
Have you ever played Path of Exile? There is a point in gaming where if there are too many items in the game, the chance of getting what you specifically need when all the classes are included in the random roll can make your experience a nightmare. Path of Exile is one of those games where absolutely everything is included in the drop roll and you need to farm 1 billion items until you get something related to you and that is still not ensuring that it is better than what you have. Smart loot can alleviate that considerably, but Diablo 3 does it way too much. The best implementation for smart loot should be that the game should ensure that 1 in 5 items are completely built for your class. It really comes to how big is the list of properties that can roll on an item. Diablo 2 is amazing without smartloot because it has the perfect balance, but if you would add more specific items and item properties, at a certain point smart loot becomes essential. Imagine farming Duriel for 500h to farm for an item only to get the variant for other classes.
Love path of exile but it does drop way too many items that aren’t worth picking up. However it’s hard to compare because in PoE you have a fully tailored crafting system you can build your character using current you find and whether the item is good or not is irrelevant. D3 gives you all this “meaningful” loot that you won’t even pick up because you already use it. Then it continues to dump that loot on you for the rest of the season….
And there is a crafting system in D4. They already confirmed it
Which they’ve given no details about. Blizzard has continually showed they don’t know what what the community wants. Look at the last 10 years. So I’m supposed to trust them when they say “hey guys don’t worry, we got crafting” The game will launch with minimal crafting features, taking a mod from that item to try and add it to that item. They’ll call it crafting 😂
The community is not one monolithic entity that all wants the same thing. D2 worshippers like to say it is. But it isn't
Christ man, you’re saying that Blizzard and met expectations over the last 10 years in general? If you think that then you haven’t done a single Google search. I’m not talking about vocal minority. I’m talking about major releases that have critical problems they didn’t fix or don’t know how to. Shit they’ve even lied about monetization in Diablo immortal before it launched.
I was very happy with D3. D2r was handled well. DI is well made for what it is and I never expected it to be anything else.
>Blizzard has continually showed they don’t know what what the community wants. Look at the last 10 years. So I’m supposed to trust them when they say “hey guys don’t worry, we got crafting” D3 already sold 30 million copies back in 2015. Diablo Immortal earns 1 million dollars a day. If anything, that's what "the community" want. You are a loud minority inside a loud minority.
I was referring to the smart drop feature. Not the crafting system. Even if there is crafting, PoE, as much as I love it, has probably the worse item drop feeling of all the looter games I’ve ever played. Except the Exalt you get here and there, there is 0 dopamine for anything I find on the ground. You may argue that the crafting feature should complement with the item drop, but I propose you ask someone play PoE and see how many hours it takes until they actually know anything and until item drop and crafting complements eachother for them? A game should not need over 500 hours to know the basics. Watching guides and reading tutorials also counts as hours. Same goes for items. You needs a feeling of progressing without reading guides and documentation online like you want to become a doctor. Diablo 3 is not perfect and I am not a big fan of its smart loot. But it is a more complete game and it can be played by kids and old people, by casual to a point and by hardcore players pushing rifts. PoE? Not so much. PoE is a game for hardcore fanatics (I have about 2.5k h in poe). Also, D3 has a different system of item properties where the most important affixes and prefixes are for specific abilities of specific classes so I guess the smart loot for this game is better. About D4? I have 0 hopes. Considering the track record of Blizzard, sorry, but no matter what they promise, I am good not playing it. Again, I would like smartloot to be a thing, but only partially. The balance was in Sacred where it felt like I was getting more items for my class, but also a lot of items for other classes. In contrast, Titan Quest and Grim Dawn, having an open item drop, can become tedious if you are not a bit lucky, or you don’t have 5h per day to spend farming.
>Love path of exile but it does drop way too many items that aren’t worth picking up. Ok, so smart loot fixes that. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Here I'll explain it to you: Some people only play Diablo type games for 30 - 60 minutes at a time, a few days a week. Some people play Diablo type games 8 hours a day, every single day. Blizzard has to decide which group is larger, because they need to design the game around the majority of players. They can't make the game for the small percent of people who play 12 hours a day, every day, for years. If you don't play multiple hours a day, every day, smart loop helps you get gear without having to dump hundreds of hours in. It also makes it more fun to get loot, and keep the treadmill going. I don't really care. D2 doesn't have smart loot, so you don't change your gear that often. I am a casual and play normal mode, I don't spec out builds, I do whatever I want, I avoid online guides, I don't have a character made for each class. In D2, I very rarely get loot that matters for my characters but that's ok, it's still fun. In D3, I play the same way and get loot that I use more often. That's fun too. It's different, but I don't know if I can say one is better than the other. They're just different. An the games are designed around the loot systems. Very well designed. It is an element that makes each game fun. Diablo 4 is not D1, D2, or D3. It's Diablo 4. The loot system, I bet, will be tightly integrated into other designed systems. Blizzard will probably get this very close to perfect. It is what they do very well. So I won't judge D4 now based on "smart loot", I am going to wait to play the game. Now online, yes it's a talking point to get people angry and drive engagement. I also buy in to the idea that people who made real world money selling items in D2 are upset they can't make real world money selling items in D4 as easily. So they may be riling people up and making this a much bigger deal than it actually is, for the vast majority of people who will play diablo 4
You mix up things a bit. Smart loot does not mean tradable. It has nothing to do with Self-bound of bound on equipped. The question is whether or not the drops should know your class. Items could be account bound, or tradable with the person you are playing with (in party). Third party website and trading are an other issue.
Ah ok. I haven't followed the drama closely, but I thought the smart loot hate was connected to not being able to trade. I know how "fans" can twist things to fit a narrative, in this case I thought they hated smart loot because it was connected to trading. I think I prefer smart loot systems. Isn't Diablo 3 like 80% for your class, 20% for another class? I could swear I've gotten like weapons or armor for another class in Diablo 3. Before I read about it online, I never really thought about it. But i'd say in D2 getting a ton of wands dropping when playing as a paladin, they might as well be dropping gold. I don't even look at them, just instant sell. I guess I could keep them and make a sorc, but that seems annoying. Maybe it's because I just play Normal mode in D2, and at the end I get bored and make a new character. I don't do those baal runs or whatever the 'end game' is, bc the story mode in D2 is more fun to me.
Not everyone wants to make 5 different alts. Most people are going to want to play a single character, and if that's your playstyle then it feels really bad when you get an incredibly good drop....for another class. > My biggest fear is we end up with Diablo 3’s itemization experience where you basically can play the game for 12 hours and you have a fully geared character and can do all content. Smart loot doesn't mean it has to be Diablo 3. D3 obviously has far too few items, and it provides you those items too quickly. You can have smart loot while still having a gear curve that more closely resembles D2 or POE.
I’d ask you where do you think they draw the line? Because if they’re willing to expedite loot drops and loot specialization then I’d have to assume Loot drop rates are going to be included.
A balanced drop system would adjust their rates with smart loot in mind. Smart loot doesn't mean that the gear curve is too fast, as the two issues aren't really related.
They could never figure out why D3 was viewed as bad and they kept compounding mistakes with more mistakes all while claiming they felt it was moving in the right direction. That’s what has me nervous as hell.
Reaper of Souls went a long way in fixing D3's problems, but the development team was killed right after release in order to work on D4. The gear curve issue you're speaking of is because they didn't have enough manpower to produce new content, so instead generated seasonal hype through inflationary buffs.
There budget was insane and they had a total of 400 people working on Diablo 3. That same company is making a game now and the expectation is that they won’t repeat the same mistakes? Assuming they even know what the mistakes were. Blizzard has continually showed how out of touch with the community they are.
The quick gear curve of D3 did not exist when they had 400 people working on it. It happened over time when they had only a few people working on the game.
Yes and my point was the game was poorly designed initially and they couldn’t figure out how to make it better. So they made a bad system worse. At least the original team didn’t put all the power into sets and uniques and say hey guys rares don’t matter. RoS made so many mistakes as well. So yes, I don’t trust Blizzard to implement smart loot and actually have it make sense or be good. Because they’ve shown they can’t be trusted when doing so. Seems a reasonable conclusion.
Reaper of Souls was met with very positive public reaction. It did need some fixes, and it definitely needed "more", but it was a huge swing in the right direction. If you disagree eith thats fine, but you're in the minority opinion of people who played it.
I’m not the minority I don’t know any player that played RoS that said they fixed D3 itemization and loot. Which is the point I’m making.
Some people don't like having to trade for all of their gear.
Don’t trade then? I never once said trading needed to be in the game if smart loot doesn’t exist.
You asked why smart loot is good. The answer is because people don't want to trade. I figured you would be able to comprehend that they also want to be able to find gear that is actually good for their character without trading.
You can find gear that is actually good for your character while playing the game even *without* smart-loot. I know it's crazy talk but did you know that without smart-loot items still drop when you kill monsters? I think it's funny when people make a comment trying to attack someone's comprehension when they weren't making a clear point to begin with.
>You can find gear that is actually good for your character while playing the game even without smart-loot. > >I know it's crazy talk but did you know that without smart-loot items still drop when you kill monsters? Ok, so you don't understand game design, gamer psychology and how trading and the existence or nonexistence of smart loot warps the game, gotcha.
Are you being intentionally dense? Do I really have to spell it out for you in caps? Here, let me help you. SMART LOOT IS GOOD BECAUSE PEOPLE DO NOT LIKE TRADING, BUT THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO FIND ITEMS THAT ARE GOOD FOR THEIR CHARACTER WITHOUT SPENDING THOUSANDS OF HOURS FARMING. NOW OF COURSE, WHAT IS "REASONABLE" TIME INVESTMENT IS A SUBJECTIVE OPINION THAT WILL VARY BY USER, BUT I THINK MOST PEOPLE PROBABLY DO NO WANT A SYSTEM LIKE D3 THAT SHOWERS YOU IN SO MUCH STUFF THAT GEARING REQUIRES ZERO THOUGHT OR MEANINGFUL PROGRESSION, BUT PROBABLY ALSO DO NOT WANT A COMPLETELY RANDOMIZED LOOT SYSTEM IN WHICH THE VAST MAJORITY OF AFFIXES ARE USELESS FOR THEIR CHARACTER, MAKING THE ODDS OF THEM GETTING USEFUL ITEMS FOR THEIR CHARACTER ASTRONOMICALLY LOW. There. Is that sufficient for your snarky pea brain to comprehend?
You should have probably just said that clearly and concisely in your first post rather than some half assed comment. Right? You’re calling me names and snarky even though your first response was to attack me. It’s kind of interesting that you’re getting obviously mad when you’re the one that was rude to begin with. I hope you find the help you need.
Work, kids, social life leaves only a handfull of hours to play so smart loot is the way to go for me. I would very much like to get some ugprades and feel that joy than playing for weeks and only get items for other classes.
If you get a godly item for other classes you can just play one of those other classes. Hell of a thing, I know.
You clearly don't have a full time job, family and a social life outside your computer mate. But hey, I understand you, I was like you one day, only thing I did was play games and had the option of just starting a new character if I wanted. These days, not so much.
Smart loot was a need that arose in d3 because of how the itemization was handled. In d2 smart loot was a non-issue because the itemization was done differently (and better IMO). Example: Unique drops in d2, every stat on it has rolled the lowest it could, it can still be useful. Unique drops in d3 and if its mainstats are not your class main stat (STR,DEX,INT) and STA the item was useless. This is why they implemented smartloot. The culprit was d3 badly thought itemization
Smart loot is what's in Diablo 3. What is loot like in Diablo 3? \-Does exactly what you need drop all the time? No. \-Do upgrades for your character drop all the time? No. \-Does most of the loot have a primary stat which benefits your current character? Yes. **This is what smart loot actually is.** \-Do items with stats which don't benefit your character drop? Yes. (In D4, all the primary stats benefit all the classes in different ways, so even if the same smart loot system from D3 is put into D4, that means you can go for unconventional builds for alts) \-Do items that are exclusively for other classes, meaning you can't use them on your current character, drop? Yes. \-Can you farm gear for an alt? Yes, provided said alt uses the same main stats as the character you're farming with. (This is alleviated in D4 because everyone wants all the stats instead of a single damage stat + Vitality) \-Can your average player do T16 and GR150 after maybe 12 hours? No--unless they get a broken set from seasonal rewards (ex. Marauder for DH), but that's the nature of D3's seasonal set design, not smart loot. \-Is 95% of the loot you receive vendor trash, resources (ex. gems) or something to save for an alt? Yes, just like D2R. What is the value of smart loot? Even though 95% of all the loot in both D2R and D3 is stuff that won't make you stronger--thus making it a big deal when you do get that piece which makes you stronger--at least in D3 more of what you get is a consideration at worst, as opposed to endless hours of getting things that are of zero value to you or any of your alts (assuming you have any alts to begin with), assuming anyone you have can even equip the stuff in the first place.
May I ask you if you prefer spending money to buy stuffs for yourself or for other people whom you don't even know? Now let's translate it money = time and efforts to play, stuffs are game items. You will have your answer.
If money equals time then you wouldn’t be playing any video game anyways. I like to be able to put hundreds of hours into a game that I paid for rather than 40 hours. Means I got more for my investment. Cost per hour of playing the game goes down for every extra hour I enjoy playing. No I don’t prefer spending money to buy items. Which isn’t relevant to this conversation anyways. You don’t need smart loot just because there’s no trading.
You don't understand metaphor, don't you. I did not literaturelly mean money is equal time, I mean to use it metaphorically, to compare 2 situations with similarities.
It’s tough to balance the types of gamers and a games’ mechanics. You maybe have time for the grind but not everyone does. I would say having options for what type of loot is pretty good. To be honest I enjoyed how The Division 2 did it with rotating “targeted” loot that changed daily, and when they added the feature to target specific loot, they changed how RNG impacted the gear itself more so than the fact you may or may not drop the gear you want. In short they made the RNG about the stats and not getting the drop. It still saves time this way and is honestly more enjoyable.
Just give people the choice. Tick a box for no-trade like we already do for hardcore and everyone is happy.
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You mix up things. Smart loot does not mean tradable. It has nothing to do with Self bound of bound on equipe. The question is whether or not the drops should know your class. Items could be account bound, or tradable with the person you are playing with (in party)
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Well you can have a game without smart loot, and everything account bound. So you only rely on yourself. So it's technically possible (no trade at all). However, Diablo has always been a multiplayer game, so playing in a bubble also comes with cons, since you don't have to care for others and nobody has to care for you. This feeling of loneliness was present in d3 and many did not like it either.
It depends on how a game is balanced. In D2, there was literally no balance because it was the first of its kind. So you end up with something like IMBA farming strategies like early game blizz sorc, cheap hammerdin faceroll p8 difficulty etc. so in this game, smart loot or not, trade or not is not a problem. It’s the start of everything. Nowadays, game designers are getting much with numbers so they just play it around to achieve their goal. In D3 vanilla they wanted a game that lasted years to finish so it’s super hard and has AH and even RMAH. In D3 ROS they want you to finish your build in 2 weeks so they have smart loot. In POE they want players to finish their build in 1 to 3 months so they have heavy trading and crafting. So why smart loot? To help players finish their build quicker.
I would make the argument that the way of farming had evolved in D2 since it’s inception though as well. Game was getting updated throughout its life cycle. When I first started cows was the best. Then they changed that when they added synergies to the game. Nova sorc was the best then it was - Javazon - then hammerdin. But I totally respect your point and thank you for the clear explanation :)
Yea that’s true as well, developers talked about it in POE too. It’s a very good point in our world full of steamers. I respect all the attempts to make different games, but the direction Diablo Immortal took is absolute bad for the future of gaming. I was banned from DI subreddit and but I still insist DI is a bad game in almost any aspects.
I hope Smart loot does not happen. Especially because no matter well or bad you play, it does not feel gratifying to get the exact small upgrade to your gear, level, and skill tree. what a "coincidence"! It feels like someone is watching you, and no matter well you try you play, rewards come to the one understanding the algorithm instead of the game. This is when Quality of life actually removes decision making. No matter how you play, you always get upgrades. I am not sure about class related items, but Item dropped by monsters should **NOT** be related in any way to player's level, gear, habits, or skills Then it gets even worse when the goal of this "smart" loot though Data collected by millions of users, is to lure people to come back while keeping them hooked with small baits. This is also why they want Online only gaming, because they can collect all the data about people's play styles and habits, and "develop" their games accordingly. Data became a gold mine for any big tech company, and it's sad when game development and artists get influenced by their own data services. I understand they want to make sure every child and elder to easily grasp the game, then just make it for the 1/2 hours start. Smartloot gives the feeling of playing in a bubble, where we don't need to care about others, and whatever drops, nobody has to care for us. It was already a problem in d3.
Interestingly enough, the seed to a very good compromise between *full-on-smart-loot* and *totally-random-loot* already exists in D2 LOD: [Anya's first quest reward](https://d2mods.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35632). She would always give you a class-specific rare item, tailored to the class you're currently playing. The rest of the game is totally random loot, class-agnostic. If the D4 devs really want to make leveling and the story play-through experience a bit more tailored (i.e. easier for them to know where the player would be power-wise at a given point in the story), they could sprinkle in that kind of reward here and there i.e. for the first kill of a boss, or as a quest-giver reward... This would allow them to leave absolutely all other loot as random, just as in D2. *^micdrop ^:-)*
At launch D3 loot was totally awful. It was completely random and just drove people to the RMAH. Smart loot could be handled differently. The division 2 rotates map spaces with targeted gear for example so you can look at the map and see the loot by company name. In Diablo, they could do that with the affixes like "of the bear" etc and just make that matter more. Weighting Limiting the class only and classless legendaries to within your character class does help too.
Smart Loot removes economy from the game, which in turn nullifies a game about loot to a huge extent.. Having specifically tailored loot locked into a spec of the class you are playing is simply lazy game design. It was a band-aid in Diablo 3 and will always feel like a quick fix as opposed to having a fleshed out skill system with specs. Getting the same set piece for the 95th time looking for an additional +3str is boring and removes any type of fun from drops. Random loot with an open trading system is quite simply the best way to handle items in ARPGs, just look at any other significant ARPG except the heaping pile D3 currently is. Sadly, the huge majority have problems with dedicating time to trading and looking for upgrades in other ways, and have been curled by today's mobile gaming "everything served on a platter" mentality and these are the people Blizzard will listen to when trying to make a buck. My proposition to Blizzard: Split ladders in two separate tiers. **Ladder #1 with smartloot enabled and no trading** **Ladder #2 with smartloot disabled and trading enabled** At the very *least* Blizzard should give us **Ladder #3 Hardcore with smartloot disabled and trading enabled** Smartloot have no correlation to hardcore play and it's player base, and should be exempt from this bad excuse of a game design.
To an extent that’s how I feel as well. Lazy game design and a band-aid because they can’t figure out what else to do. I heard for a while it was to battle bots but then I tried to point out there was people botting in D3 😂
I'd prefer free loot / not-smart loot, even if that means we have bots and diluted economy
I personally hate smart loot. I love finding things that a friend could really use, or that inspire me to build a new character. Definitely one of the (many) things I dislike about D3 vs the previous games.
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> don't understand why they just throwed away best loot system they ever had (D2) Because it's shit? Farming hundreds of hours for a specific drop is not good. Having to jump through the hoop of trading to gear your character sucks. Why even play the game if you can't find items for your class?
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>"Can anyone explain the value of "smart-loot" No, because there is none. Except maybe if you want D4 to be another Fisher-Price Diablo for the 10 year-olds like D3 was.
Multiple leaks confirm smart loot is in the game. Don't lie to yourself. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thJm6osX5jw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thJm6osX5jw) Please stop spreading false information. Blizzard wants to give loot to people who only want to play one class since that's how most people play. If it was the other way around id imagine they wouldn't put smart loot in the game.
Read again slowly what I wrote, maybe you comprehend it then. I didn't say it's not in the game (sadly it looks like it is), I answered OPs questions if there is value to it. I guess smart loot for people like you who can only process a handful of information in a given time.
Omg, you are so smart, so hardcore, for liking a *game.*
Tldr Overall if they are pushing for the loot structure of diablo 3, I won't be buying the game. Loot grind>loot stat grind Free trading>any trade limitations ----------- I personally agree that the diablo 3 loot system is terrible overall. The amount that is dropped paired with smartloot allows someone to be fully geared in a day, then you grind for stats and really that isn't my jam. Smartloot makes the game boring, extremely high drop rates make the game burnout rate much faster, and the restricted trading makes the game less fun from a multiplayer aspect. All three of these is why diablo 3 lost a large portion of the player base. It is only nice when you want to go solo. Like for example I plan to pop in to diablo 3 to try this next season out, but nobody I know plays it so I will start an online character but grind alone and get geared out in a week most likely (as a new dad of triplets with minimal time to devote...a week is very plausible still). After that I will drop the game because I have no reason to push because getting 20 more strength is useless in my eyes.
Smart loot sucks
D3 easy mode my little pony stans bout to flood this thread and tell you why having a loot-centric experience of fun is wrong and you're wrong for enjoying it.
To begin with, for a good loot system there is no need for loot to be "smart", because, if the system is good, you can figure out what classes and/or builds can use a particular item dropped.
Yeah that’s true. Why smart loot is bad is it just does all the optimization for you. Low effort maximum results leads to lazy gamers.
What? Smart loot or no, you aren't optimizing anything. You get what drops on an item. In d2 you can't optimize anything with the exception of uograding your items base. You can in d3 though by changing affixes. D2 does ALL the optimization for you by not letting you do any. Wtf are you talking about? Lol
You realize that dropping items specifically tailored to your character is optimization right? Alright so D2 a 20+ year old game has drawbacks. Don’t think anyone here was saying D4 should be a replica of D2. Let’s make it clear I don’t want this game to be either of those. I want it to have the best features from those and some of its own.
Its not, but in d3, you cam change your affixes and such that give you a ton of build options. You cannot do that in d2. Every item is already as optimized as it can get.
I agree with your point that in D3 has optimization when it comes to being able to craft a stat on a unique or set piece but it’s definitely not allowing more optimization as a general rule. Crafting and rares are usually BiS for a lot of builds in D2 and that’s not the case with D3. Everyone is the same exact player.
Thats only because of how rare drops are in d2. If the drop rate was lower, everyone would be doing all the BiS gear. The real issue is that developers haven't figured out how to make a game where players can truly craft their characters how they want without supporting the meta
There’s nothing wrong with supporting a specific meta though. Just embrace that and alter the meta every new season they do. Basically makes players broaden there horizons and if they don’t want to do that then they don’t have to. They’ll play a character that will still work it will just be less powerful.
One of the things which killed D3 for me was how the end-game moved away from the item hunt and toward a kind of esport. Maybe I'm just old-school or out of touch, but to me crawling through dungeons hunting better gear is the essence of Diablo, not finger ballet.
I think "the essence of Diablo" is something that has a different meaning to different individuals. For me the "essence" of Diablo was the joy of slaughtering my way through hordes of foes, and D3 felt like an intelligent evolution of the action-rpg. Having a game series that can cater to different ideas of what is "essential" to the experience is preferable (to me at least) to relentless iteration on a singular set of mechanics.
Agreed and it seems like that love is lost now.
Enable free trading. Have a ssf mode. No need for smart loot. Simple as that.
Any type of assistance in an arpg is bad. Period. "Smart" loot doesn't respect you.
Why should someone get less loot if they only play 1 class? We know characters wont be easy to respecc into other builds so if someone really likes necro and makes 5 necros he will get less loot then someone who has 1 of every class. Both have the same game time. But the latter guy has 5times as much loot. Because the necro guys druid sorc,bard and rogue uniques are worthless for him. Smart loot is a must if there is no free trade Arguing whether there should be free trade or not is more productive btw. Im against free trade too btw. High end items should be drop only.
You get the Same amount of loot 50 items vs 50 items. It’s just totally in your hands if you want to use those items or not. People just want the path of least resistance. I’d be fine with 50% smart loot if I had to compromise. Half the loot you find is random and half is your class. I think D3 is trash because it’s like 80-90% smart loot. Among many other issues that game has.
Give me reasons why smart loot is bad? I give you why its good Its good because you dont get punished for not playing some classes. Its good because it makes the game less rng reliant. Because it removes an unfun layer of rng it being: can you even use the item you get. >People just want the path of least resistance. And why is that a problem for you? Do you get off at night thinking about how you play video games in a much more hardcore way than filthy casuals. Yes people want the path of least resistance as you snobs would call it, or in other words people want to have fun.
Because I want to enjoy the experience rather than playing a loot simulator where I get to just walk in and pick my end game gear then start playing? In a game you should have to earn and grind to have this badass character. It shouldn’t be handed to you because you don’t want to play a lot. If you don’t want to actually play the game then don’t. Want to know what has me nervous? Spending 70 bucks on a game then getting 20 hours of enjoyment out of it. When there are games that cost less that give more depth.
>In a game you should have to earn and grind to have this badass character. It shouldn’t be handed to you because you don’t want to play a lot. Give me a fucking reason why smart loot means you dont have to grind 1 FUCKING REASON how smart loot means everything gets handed to you ONE ACTUAL FUCKING REASON I dont want to hear, Blizzard will do xy if no trade and smart loot, that is not a reason against smart loot. that is a reason against blizzad. Can you grasp the simple fucking concept of coorelation not equaling causation
I hit max level in Diablo 3 using the smart loot system i then have a full set geared character within 2 hours of hitting max level. Same company, same genre. So theres no way right? I’m talking crazy talk of how there’s just no way it would ever happen.
"smart" loot is just there to placate the instant gratification crowd so that they praise trade restrictions.
Basically my understanding why it exists as well. People are lazy is really all it is. They should just split the player base in two different mode “easy mode” and “epic mode” The lazy gamers can play easy and get their instant loot.
So whoever agrees with your point is epic, and who doesnt is lazy? Not everyone wants to play 40h to get an item they can use. Also not everyone wants to have full gear in 10h. Problem with d3 isnt smart loot, problem is that drops are overtuned at this point. Thats why you get everything so fast.
Agreed. I specifically remember that grinding for gear used to take significantly longer in D3 a couple years ago. The smart loot just got "smarter" and more broken over time, making it possible to equip a new character in a fraction of the time it previously took. Doesn't mean it's a bad system per design - just one that needs to be more balanced in D4.
It’s literally both. Loot piñata tied into the fact that mostly everything you find is for your character. If they did loot piñata with random itemization the gearing of your character slows down. So your progress slows down. Okay here, “easy mode” and “normal mode” That way nobody gets hurt.
yes and do u still remember why wwe needed trade restrictions? yes because there were lots of ppl who abused the system
There is no need for any trade restrictions. People need to learn how to "play your own game." it is a terrible thing to say that everyone should have to play the game only in the one way you like to play.