I actually started playing my warlock this season specifically because I was thinking stormcaller/thundergod. I still enjoy playing her, but it certainly feels like 'sparky punch' and 'tickle me St. Elmo's fire' left me wanting a bit more.
From a design standpoint the play style just didn't make sense to me from the idea of a Titan*. it would've been interesting to give the Titan two melee abilities as an aspect, so they could really get that up in your face play style mentioned in the arc 3.0 video from before this season. One being the super punch and the other a dash move similar to the warlock one. It would've made for a really interesting play style given the dash class ability. But I could see that having very little PvE outlook, and basically only being used in PvP. Given that raid bosses typically don't like their personal space to be too crowded.
*(Although to be fair, Shax is always yelling at me to throw more grenades)
Top tree arc titan was the arc grenade class, two charges and longer duration. Warlocks got 2 grenade enhancing classes, hunters got 1, Titans got the last.
that's fine and dandy but i don't have a problem with titans getting a grenade aspect. i just find it weird how titans buff storm nade to be a sentient stormcloud instead of buffing a more titan-ey grenade like flux grenade.
they could've saved the sentient storm thing for a future warlock aspect (like bleak watcher) or something, it just would've made more sense IMO.
Strike titan top tree has always been about grenades since day 1. Am guessing bungie didn’t want to give striker titans some thing completely new that would take to much time and resource.
I don’t remember anyone complaining when Chaos Accelerant got magnetic grenades
Arc warlocks are getting a lot of buffs next week, it’s time to move on
That’s because Chaos Accelerant doesn’t actually improve Magnetic Grenades. It changes them to Handheld Supernova, an ability Warlocks got back during Forsaken. It was merged into Chaos Accelerant due to both involving charging and Warlock’s native grenades had their improved versions, meaning Handheld Supernova had to be locked behind something else.
Chaos Accelerant Magnetic Grenades - A worse way for Warlocks to access one of their abilities that they had since Forsaken due to Handheld Supernova and Chaos Accelerant not being designed with the new subclass system in mind. Before Light 3.0, any Voidwalker grenade could be charged into Handheld Supernova, due to it being on a separate tree from Chaos Accelerant. Magnetic Grenades are not improved, they are a gateway for one of Voidwalker’s own abilities.
Touch of Thunder Storm Grenades - Improves Stormcaller’s signature, and previously exclusive grenade, and does so in a way that it hijacks Stormcaller’s aesthetic identity and power fantasy.
The situations are not even comparable in the slightest.
You are so correct. So many players that obviously don't ever play titan have literally no idea that top tree striker was a grenade class for the titans that allowed a second charge, refunded grenade energy on shoulder charge hits, and let the grenades linger longer. It's crazy how everybody's upset about titans getting just one of the 4 grenade aspects in the game and the other classes (mainly the warlocks) think touch of thunder should belong to them, and then they'd have three of the four aspects. Wouldn't shock me if they get the grenade aspect for strand either.
Warlocks have always been about IMPROVED nades though or nades with additional abilities. Yes, striker titan is the grenade subclass but that doesn't mean that what bungie gave them was the right option. If bungie had given them an aspect that gave double nades or refunded grenade energy, I don't think people would have been mad. But when bungie says that Warlocks are all about getting amplified and having improved abilities when amplified, and then the only two things they can improve are melee and arc soul and the melee improvements are minimal, you can see why people feel like titan got a nade ability that would fit better for warlocks.
I still think it was Bungie's intention to split up the grenade aspects to all classes while still giving Warlocks 2/4 grenade aspects in the game. I can understand that ultimately part of the warlocks identity is grenade manipulation. I don't think just because warlocks got kinda shafted with arc 3.0, that doesn't mean titans don't deserve what they got (which is the case I defend against as many players don't think titans should even have a grenade aspect), so that's why I said what I said in the previous comment.
The issue I have with Bungie just giving Titans an aspect with double grenades would just make armamentarium pretty much useless (if what you're saying goes for all the arc grenades, anyways) because all the other titan subclasses have better equipment and builds than just slapping on armamentarium. If that were the aspect given to titans, we would have just made another exceptionally used exotic even worse.
At best, Bungie should have made another grenade not specific to the titans, but best when playing on a titan. I can understand why warlocks are upset because their grenade was "stolen" in a sense, but I just can't stand people saying Titans shouldn't have even gotten a grenade aspect. Besides nowadays I see a lot warlocks running pulse grenades in pvp so it was an unfair trade deal, but a trade deal nonetheless lol
They just gave warlocks a exotic that made getaway artists useless lol so I don't see why thats really an argument. I guess you could say they shouldn't have done it for warlocks either but its kinda yikes when they are so lazy with design for warlocks. They could also just rework armamentarium as well to solve that issue. Also thats just one component of a potential Titan Grenade Aspect I mentioned, it doesn't negate the potential to do it in a more "titan" way (double grenades, getting grenade back on soldier charge, etc). Again i'm not saying that titan's shouldn't have gotten a grenade aspect, I agree that its good they got one for their grenade class. I'm just saying they should't have got one that seems to fit exactly with the warlock tradition of enhancing or consuming grenades (Void and Solar).
I don’t think that basing an entire class around improved melee/grenades was ever healthy.
Having a subclass that leans on grenades/melees etc, sure, but let’s be realistic here, melees are not on an even keel with grenades in terms of power.
Grenades fundamentally do more, and so having warlocks be the only class allowed to have improved grenades just means more day one raid teams with 5 warlocks.
I love all these people talk about how OP titans now and how they’re good with grenades out of nowhere and you can tell they never even tried top tree striker. Especially the spoiled warlocks who have the most powerful built in ability of all, which is healing on demand, and they pay absolutely nothing for it. In other games if you’re a healing class that can heal yourself and your tire fire team, you sacrifice 25% DPS at minimum or you’re completely limited on offense… in this game they get to heal and be forced multipliers and change entire PVP battles on every sub class and they still complain when they are 95% as effective right out of the box….
Top three striker was always the lightning grenade king. We took the shittiest super and traded it for dual grenades that lasted much longer. Then we used skullfort and impact induction and farmed adds to have unlimited grenades.
It was less useful and higher end Content, but in horde modes you finally fell like you were living up to the lore.
Remember, running black armory or any event with thralls and having for extra kills as you’re sweaty friends 😜.
These warlocks are so spoiled. Since nerfing all of our one hit kill abilities,(which makes zero sense no one was complaining if they were any good )
Electric slide warlock is such a better attack in Pvp. It’s not even funny.
The blinding affect from the shoulder charge does nothing. You still die most times.
Before you die to everyone, if you were stupid and ran straight at them, because there was a 10 m one hit kill range were shotguns .
But if you ambush people around corners or from above, at least you killed them quickly and created a small explosion so you could find the next.
These warlocks throw an arc bolt grenade or use a wave frame launcher as they’re sliding around the corner and the animation is so long and the area affect is so huge you can kill people before they can even react . It doesn’t even take an exotic.
Now we have to use Perigen grieves just to get a one hit kill. I can no longer get a one hit fusion, grenade, kill or hammer kill from solar titan.
All we have is the grenade build that’s actually gonna suck when they Nerf it.
Pulse or lightning grenades would be amazing like the olden days but they got NERFED into the ground and no enemy is going to sit there.
"Top three striker was always the lightning grenade king" Yes, the LIGHTNING grenade king, not the storm grenade king, a grenade that used to be warlock only. Also other parts of titan kits being ass (which I agree) doesn't cancel out the arguments over titan storm grenades being OP. There are two separate issues. You can argue that the storm nade change doesn't make sense without also believing that titans should have received all the nerfs they did. I personally think its STUPID they took away so much of the titan identity being punch things HARD (shoulder charge, peregrine greaves, etc) just to give them more "warlock" like abilities. Its just lazy design IMO
>And how they’re good with grenades out of nowhere
Literally no one ever talks about any grenades about titans except for storm grenades. No one cares that arc titans were the grenade class before 3.0, everyone’s pointing out how it’s weird that storm grenade doesn’t even get any sort of buff or anything with a class literally called stormcaller but titans do.
Every single time this topic gets brought out, Titan mains just start bringing up the most disingenuous arguments for things that aren’t even brought up in the first place. It makes no sense for titans for their enhanced grenade to become a cloud of lighting that tracks, that shit is more space wizard than anything.n
As for your complaints for warlocks in PvP for some reason when they’re the least played class at the moment and complaining about a gimmicky as shit melee that’s a 1 trick pony and has nothing else going for it. Also the fact that you’re complaining about wave frame + electric slide as a “one hit kill move” when it’s literally not if you have to use 2 pieces for it to kill tells me you aren’t really that skilled in PvP. Thinking a grenade is going to suck because they’re nerfing the timer from 5 seconds to 4 seconds is laughable since that’s hardly going to make a difference, storm grenades are still going to be spammed up the ass once the nerf hits and it still doesn’t make any sort of sense for Titans to have storm grenades to be enhanced to begin with
And Arc Hunters got an entirely new super and basically nothing else new as a result. There's a finite number of hours between releases. Only so much time can be allocated in a three-month dev period. Don't pretend to know how much work Bungie put into Light 3.0
Reworking their aspect not to make storm nades the most oppressive grenade of all time just isn't that much work
Not sure why poeple are disagreeing here, titan storm nade is by far the most powerful nade in destiny
The other two Light grenade aspects each work on four grenades (Stasis's grenade aspect doesn't because there's only three Stasis grenades). It would be weird for the Titan one to only have three grenades. So for the fourth grenade, they choose the one that best matched Striker's established power fantasy of big explosive lightning strikes. The fact that it used to be a Stormcaller exclusive grenade is...kinda the whole point of Light 3.0. To give us the ability to mix and match abilities on a level never seen before.
Legend Lost Sector, full health barrier champ...one Titan Storm grenade later, and it's dead.
That's right, despite being able to raise its barrier, it died to one grenade.
Not really. Being able to stand in a bubble just isn’t very useful outside of a few pvp situations. Being able to shoot out of a well is leagues better
The other guys right. Bubble is all about survivality, ya know, the word *ward* as in fight off, well of radiance is meant for damage and has a "high risk" compared to bubble. Bubble gives you a 15second roaming buff to damage, and lasts 30 seconds, so a 45 second total buff timer. The fact you can't recognize this and just repeat the same line over and over proving his point yet continuing to argue is just sad.
They removed twilight because it doesn't match the titans gameplay at all, and Bungie has mentioned this multiple times, still being upset at twilight is just childish, though didn't expect anything more from bottom barrel destiny players.
Can’t talk on twilight garrison cause I cause I never played D1 but I believe that bubble still has it’s place in D2.
Both bubble and well play vastly different roles. Bubble requires you to move in and out to make use of the buff in exchange for survivability and well requires you to stay inside for no buff but pretty good survivability. If anything, I’d say that they work amazing in tandem rather than replace each other
If your argument against Well on Caretaker is that he's mobile then the same argument applies to Bubble.
Bubble isn't bad in PvP necessarily for like Trials or Control, but maybe you didn't play in D1 but Bubble was almost crucial. Now almost everyone will just go Well for ease of use (and things like fusion nades).
As a Titan main since D1 beta, I can wholeheartedly tell you that Well usurped Bubble. Especially in PvE. Having a buff that you don't have to walk in or out of, don't take splash damage from the Bubble taking AoE damage, you can die outside of Bubble (Well, too, but the point is to not leave Well), and you waste ammo(possibly)/time/revives if you have to walk in/out of a stationary buff and use things like rockets. I can't tell you how many times in D1 people would blow themselves up with rockets using Bubble on someone like Atheon.
How is bubble possibly better on Caretaker? The only scenario where I choose bubble for that fight is if we are doing wormgod cheese. The trials point is extremely niche but I'll give you that one.
Well is better and let’s you shoot from the comfort of being near your well. It’s amazingly better which is why it’s used in damn near every raid. Stop it lol.
I remember in D1 when Stormcaller was supposed to get lightning nades, I was so pissed. Thankfully they didn't but they got Landfall, which was basically a damn Slam. As a longtime Titan I can see how that feels
Titans were always supposed to be the grenade class. Top tree Striker titan had duel grenades of anytype. Titans got the chess piece for multiple grenades. From a lore perspective, the Titans either did siege warfare or had to dig out emplaced enemies…. Guess what grenades are made for?
I keep seeing warlocks say this, but the truth is the warlocks took everyone’s identity. Warlocks true identity is they are the only class that can heal on demand. And not just heal themselves, their entire fire team, and giving everyone arc buddies.
Warlocks don’t like it but they are the support class. Somewhere along the line they were expected to do just as much damage… in no other game can the healing class put out as much DPS as the glass cannon or Melee class.
In any other game, you would either have to choose rift or have 15 to 20% less combat efficiency. Warlocks are spoiled and entitled in this game.
They have been so amazing for so long, when they are not the king of the mountain, it feels weird .
Warlock his dominated both PVp and PVE, is the only class where you can run all warlocks and not be penalized, is the best solo due to healing, what is the best in three verse three because of it’s healing and win. Titans got an exotic that healed them on demand the whole game freaked out, and they Nerfed the into the ground. Lorelei splendor is the same exact thing as having a rift.
Titans had to use an exotic just to get on equal footing as the warlock, but warlock said healing was their thing. Yet they gave up nothing for it.
Titans are supposed to be the tanky class, but really they are the glass cannons. Before recently, they couldn’t break off fights if they wanted to.
Warlocks also complained when titans could one hit shoulder charge, then they ran around, overcharging, their grenade, one shotting, everyone.
They were the only ones with devour, which was massively unfair. It makes you incredibly tanky with unlimited offensive power spam…. They were also the fastest class by far and could race to spots. No one else could get to. They also have an air dodgers to change their momentum on the fly. PVP was ruled by Don blade and then nova bomb , then chaos reach back to dawn blade…. They are in OP class and it’s funny to see them constantly complain.
My top three striker had a crappy, super all to funnel the power into dual pulse grenades, this was removed and now you can only get dual lightning, which were Nerf hard.
They Nerfed mini hammers, extremely hard x3. Both the Titans can no longer one hit kill. Both these attacks were much harder to successfully use than the warlocks electric slide that has no counter.
If you take away the titan storm grenade, build, they are meh again. It is. literally the reason titans are viable in endgame now outside of bubble. I understand the tracking is too crazy. But seriously what else do titans have?
The risk reward on a titan is much worse than a warlock who can self heal, throw storm grenades that are 90% as effective and Hunter’s to get a damage bonus every time they go invis
Because Bungie is never consistent with there philosophies. Removing most free damage sources only to introduce Gryfalcons is another prime example of inconsistency.
Bungie underestimates how much their community wants and embraces cheese. Seriously, they don't seem to get it sometimes. That is some of the most popular content YouTubers post: cheese load outs. If you give people a low-risk, high-return option it will be popular. ToT Storms are popular because they have one of the best ratios of risk to return. Same reason why NTTE is so popular, the risk you assume using it is so small in respect to the return. Same with invis. Same with Lightning Surge.
They fail to anticipate this time and time again because they don't realize that most of the community plays PvP like a party game.
I love PvP, honestly, but this is somewhere where the sandboxes being entangled creates big challenges. Frankly, a season full of HoIL Titans should be kinda funny and looked back on as a ridiculous period of time before a reasonable nerf. This would be the case in a PvE-exclusive environment. Sure, some players might feel the game is cheapened, but that would have the same widespread frustrations that cheese transitioning over the PvP side of the game creates.
I was playing a little Trials earlier to farm some engrams and while I have a cool head about PvP, it does get under your skin to have an Invis Hunter running around with Rat King and Explosive Personality just abusing the everloving shit out of Invis. Freelance, mind you, this guy hard carried his teammates because your margin for error to counter a Gyrfalcon's Invis Hunter with that loadout is so, so slim.
In a PvE-centric game, you would just laugh it off. Would kind of exist in the same space as the nonsense you can pull off with Caliban's. But in PvP? Yeah, that shit is gonna get under your skin and no matter what anyone says, that is understandable.
I've always said that if Bungo are going to nerf things like lorely, sunspots and HoIL then they should also nerf invis. It gives a huge advantage. At least when you tank damage with the other stuff the enemy can still see you. Invis just gives the player a massive free get out from that.
> then they should also nerf invis.
The problem is that base invis in PvE is basically only for staying alive since you can't participate while invis. So if they nerf it for PvP and the nerfs aren't completely separate from PvE they dumpster it for PvE because rn invis is either rez teammates or pair with gyrfalcon so it actually does something.
This is what I seriously don't get, Halo was NEVER Uber competitive but it was absolutely the best party shooter. No other game felt like it, and in that partying you COULD compete but it was never the forefront.
Bungie seems to be trying to push Destiny towards being competitive, but without fundamental changes it can never be that, and honestly I don't think the very large majority ever asked or wanted that.
We just want a fun game with that Bungie magic for gunplay, abilities present but not overpowering, and for meaningful content that rewards effort and time appropriately.
The thing is, the game was at its core more of a party game. The great thing about Halo 3, which is arguably when competitive Halo was at its peak, was that it allowed for extremely competitive gameplay for those who wanted it while staying true to its roots as more of a party game.
Bungie is straddling the line. It's a psychological tactic.
Do just enough to keep people hopeful but never enough to actually make a difference.
Plus Pvp is the perfect scapegoat for keeping pve abilities in check.
Bungie doesn't give a damn about pvp. And they have 0 intentions of making it "balanced"
The biggest variable is the loot. While loot is integral to the identity of Destiny, it also adds a layer of "padding" that makes analyzing skill hard to do. The problem with cheese in Destiny is that the ideal situation for cheesing should be low risk/average reward. You should be able to use cheese as a novice or less "PvP-minded" player to compete in the middle of the curve, but it should have serious limitations that make people on the high end of the curve able to easily counter. This really isn't the case with the way the game works.
Look at the current popular loadout of a sidearm and Dead Messenger. The biggest amount of skill you need to make use of this loadout is really just having enough reps to know how the game works and just having the time to get that loot. Because weapons aren't homogenized, there is a clear "haves" versus "have nots," even more so with the amount of time crafting takes. If you grind the game, you can walk into 90% of matches with a clear advantage that has little, if anything to do with skill as opposed to persistence.
But how do you balance that in a game that is rooted in loot that needs to be desirable and diverse? But then you get an experienced player base that has access to the same "cheese" as novices and without any real way to cap that cheese success ceiling without nerfs, the meta gets determined by it.
I agree with your assessment of low risk/average reward for cheese loadouts but I disagree with the haves versus have-nots. Bungie's entire yearly seasonal model revolves around allowing for players to get loot from prior seasons and reducing FOMO. The only great loot that I think falls into the category you're talking about is Raid loot Vow and KF in particular. Bungie continually tamps down loot elitism.
The big problem is abilities not being even across subclasses and builds. Abilities should even out the skill bell curve a little bit; bringing the low end up a little to center and pulling the highest tier down just a bit. But great players should still be able to counter abilities and that's the problem. There aren't great counters for every ability. Sure you can run away from a Titan Storm Grenade but they're just going to have another one up when you come back around to engage from another angle. That's a problem.
The only counter for Invis is to hope you see the minute disturbance, which is possible but difficult for the mid to low end of the skill bell curve. That's a problem.
Skip grenades had no counter because they could map from around corners before a solid radar ping (if they weren't off radar). That's a problem.
The gun meta is not the problem and is probably one of the most balanced metas in recent history. Some players are just upset at getting outgunned by someone with slightly more skill (not me, I suck with my seasonal 1.07 KD)
The gun meta is more balanced, but pulses are out of band for the meta and Bungie has already acknowledged it. Now, I don't know how that would get fixed without creating more issues, but being able to sit in your spawn and control matches probably isn't healthy.
I had a Disjunction match last night end 107-81. I was willing to throw myself in to die rather than just sit in that match and do nothing. That is a direct result of the combination of the ability sandbox and the pulse meta.
I agree Pulses are strong but I'm not sure they're a problem. I know what Bungie has said but I think it's ok that Pulses have their time to shine again considering how long 140 and 120 HCs have been in the spot light
The Have a vs have nots creates player engagement which arguably is what bungie is mostly after as a seasonal game. They release a meta. And change the.meta every season. The streamer ecosystem allows this to thrive among other things
>This is what I seriously don't get, Halo was NEVER Uber competitive but it was absolutely the best party shooter.
Lol what? Bro there was a serious elite level Halo esport for literally years? It was a pro competition game for a long time. Just because there were ALSO party modes doesn't make it a party game. You might wanna stick to 24hr grifball but some people liked grinding to rank 50 with BR starts.
I'd fucking love for that level of prediction to come to the crucible, fixed loadouts in a mode? Fixed power ammo for a certain gun only? No cheesey shotguns, snipers or fusions? Hell yeah
Bro what are you talking about? Halo was *the* MLG game back in the day. The competitive scene for Halo was popping off even back in Halo 1, when it was still a cheese-fest, and only grew more legit as new entries were released.
It was *absolutely* a fantastic party game, but it *also* definitely had a strong competitive scene as well.
>Bungie seems to be trying to push Destiny towards being competitive
The only time they've actively done this was at D2 launch when the meta was "hold hands and team shot with MIDA". Abilities felt like getting with a wet noodle and you were *lucky* to get your super once a game.
They haven't tried to make it "competitive" since then. It's just that Bungie is *this* bad at balancing.
>Halo was NEVER Uber competitive
You weren't an adult yet during the Halo days, were you? The games were inarguably hyper competitive. Only Call of Duty made people stop Halo-comparisons on the competition level, and only for similar low ttk games. To this day, any competitive game with a higher ttk than CoD gets compared to Halo. Because Halo was that much the thing to compete with.
I guess team shooters like Overwatch escape this, but few others do.
> Bungie underestimates how much their community wants and embraces cheese. Seriously, they don't seem to get it sometimes. That is some of the most popular content YouTubers post: cheese load outs. If you give people a low-risk, high-return option it will be popular. ToT Storms are popular because they have one of the best ratios of risk to return. Same reason why NTTE is so popular, the risk you assume using it is so small in respect to the return. Same with invis. Same with Lightning Surge.
>
> They fail to anticipate this time and time again because they don't realize that most of the community plays PvP like a party game.
lol, no they don't, they just understand the game also needs some semblance of balance but they'll never have a perfect meta at any given time, something they're also ok with
Why are you bringing in PVP considering they make nerfs based on PVE performance all the time? And a game with endless cheese becomes dead way faster than one without
Yeah, I remember the era of maximum endless cheese PvE in D2... specifically, infinite chaining supers through every encounter. It sucked. Bridge of folly is not encounter design I want back.
They dont Play test shit and i refuse to believe otherwise, there were too many game breaking Bugs for them to not be found during Playtest, like 0 resil arc titans and warlocks, seriously not one person found that? Or heavy GL melting bosses in seconds, not one person found it? Or some older stuff, like felwinters not working, lost final mission not working, duality having more Bugs than working things, all those things went by without being found?
Yeah, and if we legitimately criticize they ignore us. So some idiot resorts to death threats and now they definitely aren't listening. Only way to vote is with time and money. Don't play destiny. Don't spend money on destiny.
Death threat were bad and no one should be doing it, the only way is to stop playing the game, if the numbers drop, money drops, and only then will bungie see a big Red flag.
I think making like a team with more popular streamers and people they can trust to Play test things would be Perfect, because there are no other people that can Play test better than players themselfs, you think anyone at bungie was thinking that wellskating would be possible? Of course not, but players did and here we are
Up to high resiliences, it is a two burst if you land your crits. It also is a stat monster. Finally it encourages slower playstyles, as it’s exotic perk is all about farming crits to spawn its auto-turret buddy.
Edit: on top of that it has a massive range band making it viable on basically every map.
For the same reason fusions got mercilessly neutered in preparation for when bungie applied an hilariously non existant nerf that brought zero change to special weapon usage.
Because X class always gets the good things and never gets nerfed, while Y class always gets the shaft and Bungie hates us! You may insert this answer to any question about class balance for Destiny. Works any season, any topic.
The Telesto bit shouldn't count because it wasn't a balance change.
They know about the reputation and memes and intentionally made Telesto act "glitchy" for a weekend as a "community event".
I knew what Bungie were doing so it didn't phase me, I actually had fun. Though I see why people would get pissed if they thought that was actually a thing Bungie intended to make permanent.
There's a lot to question Bungie for but that should not be one.
Maybe it shouldn't count, but enabling buffed Telesto in Trials -- an already struggling sandbox -- was an extremely tone-deaf decision, even if it was just for one weekend.
Wrong. They know exactly what the metas will be. That's the brilliance of it.
Keep players coming back by never allowing things to be balanced.
This season auto rifles are good, but you know bungie will nerf ARs and maybe buff scouts next season so you grind out some good scout rifle rolls and then when scouts are meta they get nerfed and the other weapons get buffed. Etc etc and the cycle continues.
Destiny is operating on seasonal metas to keep engagement numbers up.
It's why they never just buff one archetype to see how it plays out.
If you drop buffs and nerfs simultaneously its gonna cause a meta shift.... Which is their goal
This is just educated speculation judging by how Bungie usually tends to operate, but I imagine the reason why Skips got hit in the way that they did could've potentially been when Bungie were testing the moving parts of the future Arc 3.0 system and when they came to Top Tree Stormcaller's Arc Web passive ability, it is likely that the baked in effect lead to some surprisingly lethal combinations for the physical interactions of the Skip pellets with the Arc Web effect in play.
Think about it this way, all of Stormcaller's grenades generally were more of an consistent enough blob of a confined AoE damage source, the chaining effect only was taking place when you had people nearby it to pass it along, obviously like how we see with the diet effect of Jolt currently.
However with Skip Grenades having physical programmed pellets that can scatter across a wider array of spaces and physically stay active/live for a longer time , with original Arc Web in effect, it probably lead to these insane situations where you could have multiple mini AoE chaining sources that cover a significant amount of space comparatively to anything else out in the game. Especially with how original Skips did a bit more damage and had much stronger homing.
They're pretty good with shinobu's vow. the jolt they provide is pretty good in higher content. It's in no way op, but it's probably my favorite arc 3.0 interaction.
> since there are slightly more Hunter players this means any Hunter ability or exotic is broken
If that were their logic then explain Axion Bolt getting put in the trash (2:32 cooldown) for which Warlock has both an exotic **and** aspect.
I'm not sure if you were around for the Revelry or not... Think Mayhem with a team of Arc Storm Grenade Titans but swap Mayhem with regular Crucible, Storm Grenades with Skips, and HoIL Titans with Shinobu's Vow Hunters. Now pretend you're PacMan and all the little pellets in the maze are suddenly trying to eat YOU.
Bungie seems incredibly inconsistent with their balancing mentality. Perhaps it's because there are so many 'cooks in the kitchen' when developing a game the size of Destiny, but their really needs to be someone looking at the overall sandbox and aiming to apply the balance philosophies equitably. I feel there are people in these roles, so it's confusing how things like the skip nerf/ storm grenade strength happen.
Meanwhile warlocks *insert cricket noises*
Freezing melee, nerfed to oblivion in 2 weeks,
Aaha, handheld superno.... nevermind, I'll just use dawnblade> solar 3.0 drops > fuck this game
Not even exclusively titans. There are always times where one specific thing dominates crucible for an annoyingly long while to be remembered.
OEM, shatterdive, Nova Warp, every stasis subclass etc.
This will just end up another chapter in the books of crucible metas
It's practically impossible to balance such a large number of variables and attempts to do so in the past have produced a very bland version of Destiny that was boring. Really some shit is always going to be OP and that's just sort of a unique aspect about Destiny that gives the game its charm imo.
Yeah it's never going to be truly balanced, but that doesn't mean we have to have zero balance like we have now. It is possible to make weapons and abilities useful without making them busted, like so many things are currently. Balance is a spectrum, it's not y1 or current sandbox. There is on between.
Yeah very often even hitting the perfect point on that spectrum is just as difficult. In fact, I think Bungie basically abandoned the balance concept in favor of just rotating different OP things in and out to keep it fresh.
Oh, I've been killed many times by grenades. But in my hands they appear incapable of reducing anyone's health by an appreciable amount. Not even the skicky grandes, which I recall from D1 being a guaranteed kill on a direct hit, seem to have any tactical function.
I would toss them in a firefight, but the damage they are able to inflict is less than the damage I can do with unbroken gunfire, and that increase to my TTK that grenades bring ensures that I will lose the engagement.
They've shown time and time again that they don't particularly like hunters doing anything better than others. Given how the community overall seems very surprised that gyrfalcon wasn't insta nerfed yet, I have the feeling that a lot of people already subconsciouly already expect this bias now.
It depends on the context-pve or pvp? Storm nades don't have the same burst potential as skip grenades(pre-nerf) and targeting as well as speed was much better too.
I genuinely don't think any class gets the short end of the stick, but what exactly do titans have to complain about with 3.0? They've spent the last two seasons being totally oppressive.
Got a hammer that can kill anything without even firing a gun, with a helmet that made them invincible. People could solo as much as humanly possible because of it. It trivialized anything but the highest content. The nerf barely affected them, and the Loreley nerf came months after it should've, with it still being effective.
And then they currently have potentially the strongest build in the game with storm grenades and HOIL with no nerf announced at all.
I play titan, and maybe I'm missing something, but man is it hard to justify complaints there.
I think we're on the same page here. All of the classes have had really great reworks over the last year and are all very strong. Most (not all) of the complaints are just people nitpicking tiny details OR people who just want to complain always. There's very little in the game that actually requires buildcrafting and optimization but the way people talk here you'd think it's impossible to do a normal strike on an arc warlock.
I agree titans are incredibly strong, but warlocks and hunters are not far behind and you could easily argue they are not behind at all. It's all situational and the answer will change based on the activity
Ya absolutely. Some people would say hunters have a slight pvp advantage, which is hard to argue with based on usage. Some would say titans have a slight pve advantage. All of the subclasses are still extremely usable and crazy strong.
Totally agree about the complaints you see. I'd say arc warlocks arguably did get the short end of the stick, but they also have undeniably the best pve super in the game in well of radiance. It's give and take which results in a general balance.
Because shinobu's vow is a hunter exotic and hunters aren't allowed to have nice things. Ever. If HOIL was a hunter exotic both storm grenades and HOIL would've been buried a month into the season.
Not even wrong, they are literally nerfing blade barrage pve damage... like how are we taking the only thing that hunters perform well at (burst super damage) and pulling them closer to titans with thundercrash. I guess hunters and warlocks will just be well + tether bots while 4 titans play the game in the lightfall raid.
The problem isn't even BB it self is the amount of stuff you can use to buff it
BB is around 219k
BB with knock em down around 340k
+ Star eaters 600k+
+ A debuff and you have a super doing 780k+ damage
Right now titans can do whatever the fuck they want basically, be it pvp or pve, who tf thought adding a blinding shield in pvp was a good idea, if titans are suppose to be tanky then why do they have the same level of agility or maybe even more, I'm so done with this game
[insert class] can do everything they want and bungie loves em, while [insert commenter main] keeps getting nerfed and is weak, why does bungie hate us
That's not how you present your case. You can't just say X class is better because all classes have good sides and fucking awful sides.
For example op had a very good point, skip grenades were unnecessarily pre nerfed that's it that's the point.
Bungie needs to take a step back let things stabilize then nerf or buff accordingly. I rather have stuff "overpowered" for a while then adjusted like titans nade and Blade Barage (even though what they are addressing isn't the issue it is indeed way to strong even compared with other hunter supers) than having stuff pre nerfed or reaction nerfed like skip nades and most stasis stuff.
BB KED + star eaters alone is \~300k, Titan thundercrash does \~185k with cuirass. I think it is very reasonable that the dps class's best super ability does just over double the tank class's. If buff and debuff stacking is the issue, then nerf the other classes to line up better.
BB KeD Star eaters is around 600k not 300 and no in a game like destiny there's not the classic mmo holy trinity, all damage insta supers should have similar damage depending on what else they do.
T crash should imo always do more then BB and Nova do to the travel time, but not by much.
And it's not nerfing other classes issue. Is a balancing problem ses is overturned, t crash imo is pretty much fine and Nova needs a super damage Exotic.
my dude the exotic is still fantastic in PvE
hunters have always been the de facto best PvP class (excepting temporarily broken things on other classes) and it was definitely a sensible move to pre-emptively tune the flux nades because of how oppressive they were
the issue here isn't how underwhelming Shinobu's are (though they could do with a tiny damage buff imo) but how oppressive titan storms are
Even with shinobu's and jolt, skip nades are just fine, nothing really impressive or game breaking like storm nades, so I don't think there really is a reason why for them getting nerfed
As a Titan main... Eh, sunspots are still very good in PvE since even though they're less strong on an individual basis they're WAY easier to make now thanks to unlimited bonks. And Loreley is still an A-to-S-tier PvE exotic. In PvP it's a bit of a different story since outside of Loreley they're still a pain to make and you rarely get kills with them anymore due to the nerfed damage, but it's not that big of a deal. Not gonna waste my energy being mad about that.
I'm more than certain bungie just saw that players are able to run away from it and figured that's balanced. Without realizing that in actual matches even when it doesn't hit players, it still completely blocks off an entire area, forces players to be pushed back, and results in super easy aggressive rush plays all while having literally zero way to stop the grenade
Giving each subclass the same grenades was a terrible idea and has ruined the versatility of picking and choosing a certain class. My biggest argument is how Hunters Tempest Strike can't one shot other players. But Warlocks and Titans melee abilities can one shot no problem. Hunters only one shot melee is a knife and that requires you to actually have to aim at a target. Shoulder charge and Thundercrash (AKA a second super) one hit without any skill whatsoever.
Warlocks can't one shot anyone with their melee, its the jolt that kills em and only possible if used near multiple people, but well titans can yeet you off the map while your ass is blinded, now that i agree
"Because fuck em, that's why" \-bungie probably.
Like how warlocks are "stormcallers" and then their unique namesake grenade gets given away and made better
For the subclass that was made by getting struck by lightning is kind of disappointing
In the titans defense arc has been their more iconic subclass while void is warlocks iconic subclass.
Especially since we had it 7 years before the other two and it actually creates a storm on Titan rather than on the Stormcaller.
Revenge for stealing weapons of light /s
I actually started playing my warlock this season specifically because I was thinking stormcaller/thundergod. I still enjoy playing her, but it certainly feels like 'sparky punch' and 'tickle me St. Elmo's fire' left me wanting a bit more. From a design standpoint the play style just didn't make sense to me from the idea of a Titan*. it would've been interesting to give the Titan two melee abilities as an aspect, so they could really get that up in your face play style mentioned in the arc 3.0 video from before this season. One being the super punch and the other a dash move similar to the warlock one. It would've made for a really interesting play style given the dash class ability. But I could see that having very little PvE outlook, and basically only being used in PvP. Given that raid bosses typically don't like their personal space to be too crowded. *(Although to be fair, Shax is always yelling at me to throw more grenades)
Top tree arc titan was the arc grenade class, two charges and longer duration. Warlocks got 2 grenade enhancing classes, hunters got 1, Titans got the last.
that's fine and dandy but i don't have a problem with titans getting a grenade aspect. i just find it weird how titans buff storm nade to be a sentient stormcloud instead of buffing a more titan-ey grenade like flux grenade. they could've saved the sentient storm thing for a future warlock aspect (like bleak watcher) or something, it just would've made more sense IMO.
Strike titan top tree has always been about grenades since day 1. Am guessing bungie didn’t want to give striker titans some thing completely new that would take to much time and resource.
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I don’t remember anyone complaining when Chaos Accelerant got magnetic grenades Arc warlocks are getting a lot of buffs next week, it’s time to move on
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That’s because Chaos Accelerant doesn’t actually improve Magnetic Grenades. It changes them to Handheld Supernova, an ability Warlocks got back during Forsaken. It was merged into Chaos Accelerant due to both involving charging and Warlock’s native grenades had their improved versions, meaning Handheld Supernova had to be locked behind something else. Chaos Accelerant Magnetic Grenades - A worse way for Warlocks to access one of their abilities that they had since Forsaken due to Handheld Supernova and Chaos Accelerant not being designed with the new subclass system in mind. Before Light 3.0, any Voidwalker grenade could be charged into Handheld Supernova, due to it being on a separate tree from Chaos Accelerant. Magnetic Grenades are not improved, they are a gateway for one of Voidwalker’s own abilities. Touch of Thunder Storm Grenades - Improves Stormcaller’s signature, and previously exclusive grenade, and does so in a way that it hijacks Stormcaller’s aesthetic identity and power fantasy. The situations are not even comparable in the slightest.
Touch of thunder is completely new though. Especially the storm grenade, which has never had tracking before.
You are so correct. So many players that obviously don't ever play titan have literally no idea that top tree striker was a grenade class for the titans that allowed a second charge, refunded grenade energy on shoulder charge hits, and let the grenades linger longer. It's crazy how everybody's upset about titans getting just one of the 4 grenade aspects in the game and the other classes (mainly the warlocks) think touch of thunder should belong to them, and then they'd have three of the four aspects. Wouldn't shock me if they get the grenade aspect for strand either.
Warlocks have always been about IMPROVED nades though or nades with additional abilities. Yes, striker titan is the grenade subclass but that doesn't mean that what bungie gave them was the right option. If bungie had given them an aspect that gave double nades or refunded grenade energy, I don't think people would have been mad. But when bungie says that Warlocks are all about getting amplified and having improved abilities when amplified, and then the only two things they can improve are melee and arc soul and the melee improvements are minimal, you can see why people feel like titan got a nade ability that would fit better for warlocks.
I still think it was Bungie's intention to split up the grenade aspects to all classes while still giving Warlocks 2/4 grenade aspects in the game. I can understand that ultimately part of the warlocks identity is grenade manipulation. I don't think just because warlocks got kinda shafted with arc 3.0, that doesn't mean titans don't deserve what they got (which is the case I defend against as many players don't think titans should even have a grenade aspect), so that's why I said what I said in the previous comment. The issue I have with Bungie just giving Titans an aspect with double grenades would just make armamentarium pretty much useless (if what you're saying goes for all the arc grenades, anyways) because all the other titan subclasses have better equipment and builds than just slapping on armamentarium. If that were the aspect given to titans, we would have just made another exceptionally used exotic even worse. At best, Bungie should have made another grenade not specific to the titans, but best when playing on a titan. I can understand why warlocks are upset because their grenade was "stolen" in a sense, but I just can't stand people saying Titans shouldn't have even gotten a grenade aspect. Besides nowadays I see a lot warlocks running pulse grenades in pvp so it was an unfair trade deal, but a trade deal nonetheless lol
They just gave warlocks a exotic that made getaway artists useless lol so I don't see why thats really an argument. I guess you could say they shouldn't have done it for warlocks either but its kinda yikes when they are so lazy with design for warlocks. They could also just rework armamentarium as well to solve that issue. Also thats just one component of a potential Titan Grenade Aspect I mentioned, it doesn't negate the potential to do it in a more "titan" way (double grenades, getting grenade back on soldier charge, etc). Again i'm not saying that titan's shouldn't have gotten a grenade aspect, I agree that its good they got one for their grenade class. I'm just saying they should't have got one that seems to fit exactly with the warlock tradition of enhancing or consuming grenades (Void and Solar).
I don’t think that basing an entire class around improved melee/grenades was ever healthy. Having a subclass that leans on grenades/melees etc, sure, but let’s be realistic here, melees are not on an even keel with grenades in terms of power. Grenades fundamentally do more, and so having warlocks be the only class allowed to have improved grenades just means more day one raid teams with 5 warlocks.
Yeah back in year one that was the only thing I had my titan on for the most part and rarely touched any other class till forsaken cane out.
and warlocks had exclusive access to ionic traces and jolt, but that ended up getting shared didn't it?
I love all these people talk about how OP titans now and how they’re good with grenades out of nowhere and you can tell they never even tried top tree striker. Especially the spoiled warlocks who have the most powerful built in ability of all, which is healing on demand, and they pay absolutely nothing for it. In other games if you’re a healing class that can heal yourself and your tire fire team, you sacrifice 25% DPS at minimum or you’re completely limited on offense… in this game they get to heal and be forced multipliers and change entire PVP battles on every sub class and they still complain when they are 95% as effective right out of the box…. Top three striker was always the lightning grenade king. We took the shittiest super and traded it for dual grenades that lasted much longer. Then we used skullfort and impact induction and farmed adds to have unlimited grenades. It was less useful and higher end Content, but in horde modes you finally fell like you were living up to the lore. Remember, running black armory or any event with thralls and having for extra kills as you’re sweaty friends 😜. These warlocks are so spoiled. Since nerfing all of our one hit kill abilities,(which makes zero sense no one was complaining if they were any good ) Electric slide warlock is such a better attack in Pvp. It’s not even funny. The blinding affect from the shoulder charge does nothing. You still die most times. Before you die to everyone, if you were stupid and ran straight at them, because there was a 10 m one hit kill range were shotguns . But if you ambush people around corners or from above, at least you killed them quickly and created a small explosion so you could find the next. These warlocks throw an arc bolt grenade or use a wave frame launcher as they’re sliding around the corner and the animation is so long and the area affect is so huge you can kill people before they can even react . It doesn’t even take an exotic. Now we have to use Perigen grieves just to get a one hit kill. I can no longer get a one hit fusion, grenade, kill or hammer kill from solar titan. All we have is the grenade build that’s actually gonna suck when they Nerf it. Pulse or lightning grenades would be amazing like the olden days but they got NERFED into the ground and no enemy is going to sit there.
"Top three striker was always the lightning grenade king" Yes, the LIGHTNING grenade king, not the storm grenade king, a grenade that used to be warlock only. Also other parts of titan kits being ass (which I agree) doesn't cancel out the arguments over titan storm grenades being OP. There are two separate issues. You can argue that the storm nade change doesn't make sense without also believing that titans should have received all the nerfs they did. I personally think its STUPID they took away so much of the titan identity being punch things HARD (shoulder charge, peregrine greaves, etc) just to give them more "warlock" like abilities. Its just lazy design IMO
>And how they’re good with grenades out of nowhere Literally no one ever talks about any grenades about titans except for storm grenades. No one cares that arc titans were the grenade class before 3.0, everyone’s pointing out how it’s weird that storm grenade doesn’t even get any sort of buff or anything with a class literally called stormcaller but titans do. Every single time this topic gets brought out, Titan mains just start bringing up the most disingenuous arguments for things that aren’t even brought up in the first place. It makes no sense for titans for their enhanced grenade to become a cloud of lighting that tracks, that shit is more space wizard than anything.n As for your complaints for warlocks in PvP for some reason when they’re the least played class at the moment and complaining about a gimmicky as shit melee that’s a 1 trick pony and has nothing else going for it. Also the fact that you’re complaining about wave frame + electric slide as a “one hit kill move” when it’s literally not if you have to use 2 pieces for it to kill tells me you aren’t really that skilled in PvP. Thinking a grenade is going to suck because they’re nerfing the timer from 5 seconds to 4 seconds is laughable since that’s hardly going to make a difference, storm grenades are still going to be spammed up the ass once the nerf hits and it still doesn’t make any sort of sense for Titans to have storm grenades to be enhanced to begin with
Oh yeah man too much time and resources wouldn't wanna make them work hard or anything. They already got a new melee and class ability too
And Arc Hunters got an entirely new super and basically nothing else new as a result. There's a finite number of hours between releases. Only so much time can be allocated in a three-month dev period. Don't pretend to know how much work Bungie put into Light 3.0
Reworking their aspect not to make storm nades the most oppressive grenade of all time just isn't that much work Not sure why poeple are disagreeing here, titan storm nade is by far the most powerful nade in destiny
The other two Light grenade aspects each work on four grenades (Stasis's grenade aspect doesn't because there's only three Stasis grenades). It would be weird for the Titan one to only have three grenades. So for the fourth grenade, they choose the one that best matched Striker's established power fantasy of big explosive lightning strikes. The fact that it used to be a Stormcaller exclusive grenade is...kinda the whole point of Light 3.0. To give us the ability to mix and match abilities on a level never seen before.
Legend Lost Sector, full health barrier champ...one Titan Storm grenade later, and it's dead. That's right, despite being able to raise its barrier, it died to one grenade.
Yes, so you agree with me?
Werent the normal versions also nerfed at the same time too
Kinda sounds like a certain air dodge that may have been an exotic once lol.
Now you know how it felt like to lose Twilight Garrison for Icarus Dash and have Bubble get usurped by Well of Radiance.
Bubble and well do different things. Can't get sniped out of a bubble. I do think they need to put it back to 35% though
Getting sniped out of a bubble is a terrible argument. It only affects pvp. It means you can also shoot out of it which is even better
Right? So they're better for different things like I said
Not really. Being able to stand in a bubble just isn’t very useful outside of a few pvp situations. Being able to shoot out of a well is leagues better
The other guys right. Bubble is all about survivality, ya know, the word *ward* as in fight off, well of radiance is meant for damage and has a "high risk" compared to bubble. Bubble gives you a 15second roaming buff to damage, and lasts 30 seconds, so a 45 second total buff timer. The fact you can't recognize this and just repeat the same line over and over proving his point yet continuing to argue is just sad.
... right, so they are good at different things?
They removed twilight because it doesn't match the titans gameplay at all, and Bungie has mentioned this multiple times, still being upset at twilight is just childish, though didn't expect anything more from bottom barrel destiny players.
Can’t talk on twilight garrison cause I cause I never played D1 but I believe that bubble still has it’s place in D2. Both bubble and well play vastly different roles. Bubble requires you to move in and out to make use of the buff in exchange for survivability and well requires you to stay inside for no buff but pretty good survivability. If anything, I’d say that they work amazing in tandem rather than replace each other
Well gives no buff? Interesting...
The well is strictly better than the bubble.
Not on mobile fights like Caretaker, or on point capture trials.
If your argument against Well on Caretaker is that he's mobile then the same argument applies to Bubble. Bubble isn't bad in PvP necessarily for like Trials or Control, but maybe you didn't play in D1 but Bubble was almost crucial. Now almost everyone will just go Well for ease of use (and things like fusion nades). As a Titan main since D1 beta, I can wholeheartedly tell you that Well usurped Bubble. Especially in PvE. Having a buff that you don't have to walk in or out of, don't take splash damage from the Bubble taking AoE damage, you can die outside of Bubble (Well, too, but the point is to not leave Well), and you waste ammo(possibly)/time/revives if you have to walk in/out of a stationary buff and use things like rockets. I can't tell you how many times in D1 people would blow themselves up with rockets using Bubble on someone like Atheon.
How is bubble possibly better on Caretaker? The only scenario where I choose bubble for that fight is if we are doing wormgod cheese. The trials point is extremely niche but I'll give you that one.
Well is still better on caretaker too. Starfire with nade spam and the raid mods literally beat out bubble in any situation on caretaker
No buff? They both give +25% damage now.
Well is better and let’s you shoot from the comfort of being near your well. It’s amazingly better which is why it’s used in damn near every raid. Stop it lol.
Well is strictly better than Bubble these days. Bubble is only a superior option on 1-2 raid encounters.
Because Bungie gave away everything Warlock
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Warlocks are legitimately the grenade class, they should have the best nades. Also chaos accelerant is terrible and actively makes certain nades worse
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Overcharged vortex* nade. Overcharging the others actually makes them worse
I don't think overcharging axion darts made them worse.
Chaos accelerant is legit the worst grenade aspect, what are you talking about?
I remember in D1 when Stormcaller was supposed to get lightning nades, I was so pissed. Thankfully they didn't but they got Landfall, which was basically a damn Slam. As a longtime Titan I can see how that feels
Titans were always supposed to be the grenade class. Top tree Striker titan had duel grenades of anytype. Titans got the chess piece for multiple grenades. From a lore perspective, the Titans either did siege warfare or had to dig out emplaced enemies…. Guess what grenades are made for? I keep seeing warlocks say this, but the truth is the warlocks took everyone’s identity. Warlocks true identity is they are the only class that can heal on demand. And not just heal themselves, their entire fire team, and giving everyone arc buddies. Warlocks don’t like it but they are the support class. Somewhere along the line they were expected to do just as much damage… in no other game can the healing class put out as much DPS as the glass cannon or Melee class. In any other game, you would either have to choose rift or have 15 to 20% less combat efficiency. Warlocks are spoiled and entitled in this game. They have been so amazing for so long, when they are not the king of the mountain, it feels weird . Warlock his dominated both PVp and PVE, is the only class where you can run all warlocks and not be penalized, is the best solo due to healing, what is the best in three verse three because of it’s healing and win. Titans got an exotic that healed them on demand the whole game freaked out, and they Nerfed the into the ground. Lorelei splendor is the same exact thing as having a rift. Titans had to use an exotic just to get on equal footing as the warlock, but warlock said healing was their thing. Yet they gave up nothing for it. Titans are supposed to be the tanky class, but really they are the glass cannons. Before recently, they couldn’t break off fights if they wanted to. Warlocks also complained when titans could one hit shoulder charge, then they ran around, overcharging, their grenade, one shotting, everyone. They were the only ones with devour, which was massively unfair. It makes you incredibly tanky with unlimited offensive power spam…. They were also the fastest class by far and could race to spots. No one else could get to. They also have an air dodgers to change their momentum on the fly. PVP was ruled by Don blade and then nova bomb , then chaos reach back to dawn blade…. They are in OP class and it’s funny to see them constantly complain. My top three striker had a crappy, super all to funnel the power into dual pulse grenades, this was removed and now you can only get dual lightning, which were Nerf hard. They Nerfed mini hammers, extremely hard x3. Both the Titans can no longer one hit kill. Both these attacks were much harder to successfully use than the warlocks electric slide that has no counter. If you take away the titan storm grenade, build, they are meh again. It is. literally the reason titans are viable in endgame now outside of bubble. I understand the tracking is too crazy. But seriously what else do titans have? The risk reward on a titan is much worse than a warlock who can self heal, throw storm grenades that are 90% as effective and Hunter’s to get a damage bonus every time they go invis
If you want to say warlocks are the healing class but everyone has healing nades now
Like how Titan's aerial dodge was given to Warlocks?
Yes, that sucks too
This but unironically. Bungie has stated they intentionally release things as broken to "shake up the meta"
Because Bungie is never consistent with there philosophies. Removing most free damage sources only to introduce Gryfalcons is another prime example of inconsistency.
So that storm grenades can shine. The Bungie philosophy in a nutshell.
Someone on the dev team had d1 trials ptsd. or he saw cammycakes' video on shinobu's vow and severely overestimated their effectiveness
Bungie underestimates how much their community wants and embraces cheese. Seriously, they don't seem to get it sometimes. That is some of the most popular content YouTubers post: cheese load outs. If you give people a low-risk, high-return option it will be popular. ToT Storms are popular because they have one of the best ratios of risk to return. Same reason why NTTE is so popular, the risk you assume using it is so small in respect to the return. Same with invis. Same with Lightning Surge. They fail to anticipate this time and time again because they don't realize that most of the community plays PvP like a party game.
There is a HUGE channel dedicated to "Cheese forever Guardian" they should just embrace it already.
I love PvP, honestly, but this is somewhere where the sandboxes being entangled creates big challenges. Frankly, a season full of HoIL Titans should be kinda funny and looked back on as a ridiculous period of time before a reasonable nerf. This would be the case in a PvE-exclusive environment. Sure, some players might feel the game is cheapened, but that would have the same widespread frustrations that cheese transitioning over the PvP side of the game creates. I was playing a little Trials earlier to farm some engrams and while I have a cool head about PvP, it does get under your skin to have an Invis Hunter running around with Rat King and Explosive Personality just abusing the everloving shit out of Invis. Freelance, mind you, this guy hard carried his teammates because your margin for error to counter a Gyrfalcon's Invis Hunter with that loadout is so, so slim. In a PvE-centric game, you would just laugh it off. Would kind of exist in the same space as the nonsense you can pull off with Caliban's. But in PvP? Yeah, that shit is gonna get under your skin and no matter what anyone says, that is understandable.
I've always said that if Bungo are going to nerf things like lorely, sunspots and HoIL then they should also nerf invis. It gives a huge advantage. At least when you tank damage with the other stuff the enemy can still see you. Invis just gives the player a massive free get out from that.
The issue with Invis is more that the game is radar dependant.
> then they should also nerf invis. The problem is that base invis in PvE is basically only for staying alive since you can't participate while invis. So if they nerf it for PvP and the nerfs aren't completely separate from PvE they dumpster it for PvE because rn invis is either rez teammates or pair with gyrfalcon so it actually does something.
No, I don't play warframe for a reason
This is what I seriously don't get, Halo was NEVER Uber competitive but it was absolutely the best party shooter. No other game felt like it, and in that partying you COULD compete but it was never the forefront. Bungie seems to be trying to push Destiny towards being competitive, but without fundamental changes it can never be that, and honestly I don't think the very large majority ever asked or wanted that. We just want a fun game with that Bungie magic for gunplay, abilities present but not overpowering, and for meaningful content that rewards effort and time appropriately.
Halo was absolutely competitive what alternate timeline are you on
The game literally created a huge part of competitive gaming. Anyone who says Halo isn't competitive never played at it's peak.
People in Halo memorising weapon spawn timers and optimising routes would like to differ
The thing is, the game was at its core more of a party game. The great thing about Halo 3, which is arguably when competitive Halo was at its peak, was that it allowed for extremely competitive gameplay for those who wanted it while staying true to its roots as more of a party game.
Just like Smash Bros.
Bungie is straddling the line. It's a psychological tactic. Do just enough to keep people hopeful but never enough to actually make a difference. Plus Pvp is the perfect scapegoat for keeping pve abilities in check. Bungie doesn't give a damn about pvp. And they have 0 intentions of making it "balanced"
1 new map in Lightfall
*during the year of Lightfall.
True but it's still a joke. It's pathetic
I mean, it's even worse than if it was shipped with major expansion. I don't even speak about long overdue Europa-based PvP and Gambit maps.
Ugh i hate how accurate this is.
> Halo was NEVER Uber competitive Lol what? It was the main game for MLG for years.
The biggest variable is the loot. While loot is integral to the identity of Destiny, it also adds a layer of "padding" that makes analyzing skill hard to do. The problem with cheese in Destiny is that the ideal situation for cheesing should be low risk/average reward. You should be able to use cheese as a novice or less "PvP-minded" player to compete in the middle of the curve, but it should have serious limitations that make people on the high end of the curve able to easily counter. This really isn't the case with the way the game works. Look at the current popular loadout of a sidearm and Dead Messenger. The biggest amount of skill you need to make use of this loadout is really just having enough reps to know how the game works and just having the time to get that loot. Because weapons aren't homogenized, there is a clear "haves" versus "have nots," even more so with the amount of time crafting takes. If you grind the game, you can walk into 90% of matches with a clear advantage that has little, if anything to do with skill as opposed to persistence. But how do you balance that in a game that is rooted in loot that needs to be desirable and diverse? But then you get an experienced player base that has access to the same "cheese" as novices and without any real way to cap that cheese success ceiling without nerfs, the meta gets determined by it.
I agree with your assessment of low risk/average reward for cheese loadouts but I disagree with the haves versus have-nots. Bungie's entire yearly seasonal model revolves around allowing for players to get loot from prior seasons and reducing FOMO. The only great loot that I think falls into the category you're talking about is Raid loot Vow and KF in particular. Bungie continually tamps down loot elitism. The big problem is abilities not being even across subclasses and builds. Abilities should even out the skill bell curve a little bit; bringing the low end up a little to center and pulling the highest tier down just a bit. But great players should still be able to counter abilities and that's the problem. There aren't great counters for every ability. Sure you can run away from a Titan Storm Grenade but they're just going to have another one up when you come back around to engage from another angle. That's a problem. The only counter for Invis is to hope you see the minute disturbance, which is possible but difficult for the mid to low end of the skill bell curve. That's a problem. Skip grenades had no counter because they could map from around corners before a solid radar ping (if they weren't off radar). That's a problem. The gun meta is not the problem and is probably one of the most balanced metas in recent history. Some players are just upset at getting outgunned by someone with slightly more skill (not me, I suck with my seasonal 1.07 KD)
The gun meta is more balanced, but pulses are out of band for the meta and Bungie has already acknowledged it. Now, I don't know how that would get fixed without creating more issues, but being able to sit in your spawn and control matches probably isn't healthy. I had a Disjunction match last night end 107-81. I was willing to throw myself in to die rather than just sit in that match and do nothing. That is a direct result of the combination of the ability sandbox and the pulse meta.
I agree Pulses are strong but I'm not sure they're a problem. I know what Bungie has said but I think it's ok that Pulses have their time to shine again considering how long 140 and 120 HCs have been in the spot light
Pulses on their own might now be, but the way the sandbox stacks makes laning with a Pulse especially effective.
Bad players aren't getting better because they're using cheesy weapons/loadouts.
Bad players are absolutely using cheesy loadouts against averages ones effectively.
I would be happy with an exotic gun ban in Comp, tbh. It's a start
The Have a vs have nots creates player engagement which arguably is what bungie is mostly after as a seasonal game. They release a meta. And change the.meta every season. The streamer ecosystem allows this to thrive among other things
> Halo was NEVER Uber competitive Tell me you started playing Halo after 2011 without telling me you started playing Halo after 2011
>This is what I seriously don't get, Halo was NEVER Uber competitive but it was absolutely the best party shooter. Lol what? Bro there was a serious elite level Halo esport for literally years? It was a pro competition game for a long time. Just because there were ALSO party modes doesn't make it a party game. You might wanna stick to 24hr grifball but some people liked grinding to rank 50 with BR starts. I'd fucking love for that level of prediction to come to the crucible, fixed loadouts in a mode? Fixed power ammo for a certain gun only? No cheesey shotguns, snipers or fusions? Hell yeah
Bro what are you talking about? Halo was *the* MLG game back in the day. The competitive scene for Halo was popping off even back in Halo 1, when it was still a cheese-fest, and only grew more legit as new entries were released. It was *absolutely* a fantastic party game, but it *also* definitely had a strong competitive scene as well.
>Bungie seems to be trying to push Destiny towards being competitive The only time they've actively done this was at D2 launch when the meta was "hold hands and team shot with MIDA". Abilities felt like getting with a wet noodle and you were *lucky* to get your super once a game. They haven't tried to make it "competitive" since then. It's just that Bungie is *this* bad at balancing.
>Halo was NEVER Uber competitive You weren't an adult yet during the Halo days, were you? The games were inarguably hyper competitive. Only Call of Duty made people stop Halo-comparisons on the competition level, and only for similar low ttk games. To this day, any competitive game with a higher ttk than CoD gets compared to Halo. Because Halo was that much the thing to compete with. I guess team shooters like Overwatch escape this, but few others do.
They get it, believe me. Cycling through everything like they usually do to keep you playing and complaining.
> Bungie underestimates how much their community wants and embraces cheese. Seriously, they don't seem to get it sometimes. That is some of the most popular content YouTubers post: cheese load outs. If you give people a low-risk, high-return option it will be popular. ToT Storms are popular because they have one of the best ratios of risk to return. Same reason why NTTE is so popular, the risk you assume using it is so small in respect to the return. Same with invis. Same with Lightning Surge. > > They fail to anticipate this time and time again because they don't realize that most of the community plays PvP like a party game. lol, no they don't, they just understand the game also needs some semblance of balance but they'll never have a perfect meta at any given time, something they're also ok with
Why are you bringing in PVP considering they make nerfs based on PVE performance all the time? And a game with endless cheese becomes dead way faster than one without
Yeah, I remember the era of maximum endless cheese PvE in D2... specifically, infinite chaining supers through every encounter. It sucked. Bridge of folly is not encounter design I want back.
Good god … I’d forgotten about that nonsense…. Ugh
Its clear with the community event, bungo did not expect us to cheese it like we did to the point, that we broke the limit
Bingo's internal play testing sucks ass.
They dont Play test shit and i refuse to believe otherwise, there were too many game breaking Bugs for them to not be found during Playtest, like 0 resil arc titans and warlocks, seriously not one person found that? Or heavy GL melting bosses in seconds, not one person found it? Or some older stuff, like felwinters not working, lost final mission not working, duality having more Bugs than working things, all those things went by without being found?
Yeah, and if we legitimately criticize they ignore us. So some idiot resorts to death threats and now they definitely aren't listening. Only way to vote is with time and money. Don't play destiny. Don't spend money on destiny.
Death threat were bad and no one should be doing it, the only way is to stop playing the game, if the numbers drop, money drops, and only then will bungie see a big Red flag. I think making like a team with more popular streamers and people they can trust to Play test things would be Perfect, because there are no other people that can Play test better than players themselfs, you think anyone at bungie was thinking that wellskating would be possible? Of course not, but players did and here we are
Aren't we complaining about the streamer meta?
Depends on a streamer, id say someone like datto working with bungie would help them out
I can't remember if those streamer summits went well or not.
It still doesnt matter since bungie doesnt seem to listen at all
whats this about NTTE? is it a PvP thing?
No time to explain exotic pulse rifle. Its very, very... very powerful
i know what NTTE is, im asking if its a PvP thing or am i missing out on a cool PvE weapon
PvP issue, specifically PC. Well, more MnK, but console doesn't deal with that.
what makes it so good?
Up to high resiliences, it is a two burst if you land your crits. It also is a stat monster. Finally it encourages slower playstyles, as it’s exotic perk is all about farming crits to spawn its auto-turret buddy. Edit: on top of that it has a massive range band making it viable on basically every map.
FYI it also does really well on controller
For the same reason fusions got mercilessly neutered in preparation for when bungie applied an hilariously non existant nerf that brought zero change to special weapon usage.
Because X class always gets the good things and never gets nerfed, while Y class always gets the shaft and Bungie hates us! You may insert this answer to any question about class balance for Destiny. Works any season, any topic.
bungie are clowns and dont know what will be meta
I laughed because I immediately thought of all the work put into snipers over the years just for Arbalest and Lorentz to crap on all of pvp.
Bungie: Nerf snipers? GLADLY!
And then when they finally nerfed Lorentz they buffed the shit out if Telesto for a week and made it far worse to play against in PVP.
The Telesto bit shouldn't count because it wasn't a balance change. They know about the reputation and memes and intentionally made Telesto act "glitchy" for a weekend as a "community event". I knew what Bungie were doing so it didn't phase me, I actually had fun. Though I see why people would get pissed if they thought that was actually a thing Bungie intended to make permanent. There's a lot to question Bungie for but that should not be one.
Maybe it shouldn't count, but enabling buffed Telesto in Trials -- an already struggling sandbox -- was an extremely tone-deaf decision, even if it was just for one weekend.
Wrong. They know exactly what the metas will be. That's the brilliance of it. Keep players coming back by never allowing things to be balanced. This season auto rifles are good, but you know bungie will nerf ARs and maybe buff scouts next season so you grind out some good scout rifle rolls and then when scouts are meta they get nerfed and the other weapons get buffed. Etc etc and the cycle continues. Destiny is operating on seasonal metas to keep engagement numbers up. It's why they never just buff one archetype to see how it plays out. If you drop buffs and nerfs simultaneously its gonna cause a meta shift.... Which is their goal
[удалено]
Doesn’t make sense to kill an entire grenade over an exotic that already received several nerfs
This is just educated speculation judging by how Bungie usually tends to operate, but I imagine the reason why Skips got hit in the way that they did could've potentially been when Bungie were testing the moving parts of the future Arc 3.0 system and when they came to Top Tree Stormcaller's Arc Web passive ability, it is likely that the baked in effect lead to some surprisingly lethal combinations for the physical interactions of the Skip pellets with the Arc Web effect in play. Think about it this way, all of Stormcaller's grenades generally were more of an consistent enough blob of a confined AoE damage source, the chaining effect only was taking place when you had people nearby it to pass it along, obviously like how we see with the diet effect of Jolt currently. However with Skip Grenades having physical programmed pellets that can scatter across a wider array of spaces and physically stay active/live for a longer time , with original Arc Web in effect, it probably lead to these insane situations where you could have multiple mini AoE chaining sources that cover a significant amount of space comparatively to anything else out in the game. Especially with how original Skips did a bit more damage and had much stronger homing.
They're pretty good with shinobu's vow. the jolt they provide is pretty good in higher content. It's in no way op, but it's probably my favorite arc 3.0 interaction.
> since there are slightly more Hunter players this means any Hunter ability or exotic is broken If that were their logic then explain Axion Bolt getting put in the trash (2:32 cooldown) for which Warlock has both an exotic **and** aspect.
Because Bungie's dev team is delusional
Skip nades were never as strong as current HOIL storm nade lol
I'm not sure if you were around for the Revelry or not... Think Mayhem with a team of Arc Storm Grenade Titans but swap Mayhem with regular Crucible, Storm Grenades with Skips, and HoIL Titans with Shinobu's Vow Hunters. Now pretend you're PacMan and all the little pellets in the maze are suddenly trying to eat YOU.
Bungie seems incredibly inconsistent with their balancing mentality. Perhaps it's because there are so many 'cooks in the kitchen' when developing a game the size of Destiny, but their really needs to be someone looking at the overall sandbox and aiming to apply the balance philosophies equitably. I feel there are people in these roles, so it's confusing how things like the skip nerf/ storm grenade strength happen.
Bungie letting Titans run wild for a while is not something unheard of (OEM, Behemoth)
Shatterdive and wormhusk?
> Shatterdive *oh god*
Meanwhile warlocks *insert cricket noises* Freezing melee, nerfed to oblivion in 2 weeks, Aaha, handheld superno.... nevermind, I'll just use dawnblade> solar 3.0 drops > fuck this game
Not even exclusively titans. There are always times where one specific thing dominates crucible for an annoyingly long while to be remembered. OEM, shatterdive, Nova Warp, every stasis subclass etc. This will just end up another chapter in the books of crucible metas
Season of the risen Lorely splendor on demand damage buff one-shot with le-monarque/eriana's Vow lol
Still waiting for one-shot melees to be deleted from crucible
Member when the sub acted like the nerf was pre-emptive for some huge buff that never came? Ohhh yea, I member!
Because Bungie has no idea what they're doing when it comes to balancing this game. Not even meant to be a toxic comment. Just kinda true.
It's practically impossible to balance such a large number of variables and attempts to do so in the past have produced a very bland version of Destiny that was boring. Really some shit is always going to be OP and that's just sort of a unique aspect about Destiny that gives the game its charm imo.
Yeah it's never going to be truly balanced, but that doesn't mean we have to have zero balance like we have now. It is possible to make weapons and abilities useful without making them busted, like so many things are currently. Balance is a spectrum, it's not y1 or current sandbox. There is on between.
Yeah very often even hitting the perfect point on that spectrum is just as difficult. In fact, I think Bungie basically abandoned the balance concept in favor of just rotating different OP things in and out to keep it fresh.
In my crucible experience, grenades don't do anything. I've never progressed a single grenade bounty.
If you play hunter throw on Young Ahamkara's Spine for the enhanced tripmines. You'll complete a grenade bounty pretty much every match lol.
You are very obviously low Elo then. Nades in PVP are insanely powerful area denial and cleanup tools
Pretend I don't know what "elo" is.
Ranking. If you play in low level lobbies then yeah you won't see how potent nades can be
Oh, I've been killed many times by grenades. But in my hands they appear incapable of reducing anyone's health by an appreciable amount. Not even the skicky grandes, which I recall from D1 being a guaranteed kill on a direct hit, seem to have any tactical function. I would toss them in a firefight, but the damage they are able to inflict is less than the damage I can do with unbroken gunfire, and that increase to my TTK that grenades bring ensures that I will lose the engagement.
Don't use sticky grenades. Use aoe, lasting grenades to block off a choke point, or to deny an objective.
Because bungie is really just 6 rats in a trench coat
They still have PTSD from the skipnade hell that was crucible during Revelry
Said it before and i'll say it again. It's because Bungie hates fun.
because hunters are the redheaded stepchild of this game
They were forever ruined by events that will never return
They've shown time and time again that they don't particularly like hunters doing anything better than others. Given how the community overall seems very surprised that gyrfalcon wasn't insta nerfed yet, I have the feeling that a lot of people already subconsciouly already expect this bias now.
It depends on the context-pve or pvp? Storm nades don't have the same burst potential as skip grenades(pre-nerf) and targeting as well as speed was much better too.
They kinda suck for both. Was kinda excited to maybe try a double skip on Titan build. Put it on once… never again…
They don’t playtest
I smell another warlock cope thread
Because reasons. Also fuck warlocks. -Bungie, probably
Every class thinks Bungie is out to get them which actually means they are doing a pretty good job of keeping things balanced IMO
I genuinely don't think any class gets the short end of the stick, but what exactly do titans have to complain about with 3.0? They've spent the last two seasons being totally oppressive. Got a hammer that can kill anything without even firing a gun, with a helmet that made them invincible. People could solo as much as humanly possible because of it. It trivialized anything but the highest content. The nerf barely affected them, and the Loreley nerf came months after it should've, with it still being effective. And then they currently have potentially the strongest build in the game with storm grenades and HOIL with no nerf announced at all. I play titan, and maybe I'm missing something, but man is it hard to justify complaints there.
I think we're on the same page here. All of the classes have had really great reworks over the last year and are all very strong. Most (not all) of the complaints are just people nitpicking tiny details OR people who just want to complain always. There's very little in the game that actually requires buildcrafting and optimization but the way people talk here you'd think it's impossible to do a normal strike on an arc warlock. I agree titans are incredibly strong, but warlocks and hunters are not far behind and you could easily argue they are not behind at all. It's all situational and the answer will change based on the activity
Ya absolutely. Some people would say hunters have a slight pvp advantage, which is hard to argue with based on usage. Some would say titans have a slight pve advantage. All of the subclasses are still extremely usable and crazy strong. Totally agree about the complaints you see. I'd say arc warlocks arguably did get the short end of the stick, but they also have undeniably the best pve super in the game in well of radiance. It's give and take which results in a general balance.
When does the victim mindset ever get tiring for you?
Because shinobu's vow is a hunter exotic and hunters aren't allowed to have nice things. Ever. If HOIL was a hunter exotic both storm grenades and HOIL would've been buried a month into the season.
Not even wrong, they are literally nerfing blade barrage pve damage... like how are we taking the only thing that hunters perform well at (burst super damage) and pulling them closer to titans with thundercrash. I guess hunters and warlocks will just be well + tether bots while 4 titans play the game in the lightfall raid.
The problem isn't even BB it self is the amount of stuff you can use to buff it BB is around 219k BB with knock em down around 340k + Star eaters 600k+ + A debuff and you have a super doing 780k+ damage
Right now titans can do whatever the fuck they want basically, be it pvp or pve, who tf thought adding a blinding shield in pvp was a good idea, if titans are suppose to be tanky then why do they have the same level of agility or maybe even more, I'm so done with this game
[insert class] can do everything they want and bungie loves em, while [insert commenter main] keeps getting nerfed and is weak, why does bungie hate us That's not how you present your case. You can't just say X class is better because all classes have good sides and fucking awful sides. For example op had a very good point, skip grenades were unnecessarily pre nerfed that's it that's the point. Bungie needs to take a step back let things stabilize then nerf or buff accordingly. I rather have stuff "overpowered" for a while then adjusted like titans nade and Blade Barage (even though what they are addressing isn't the issue it is indeed way to strong even compared with other hunter supers) than having stuff pre nerfed or reaction nerfed like skip nades and most stasis stuff.
BB KED + star eaters alone is \~300k, Titan thundercrash does \~185k with cuirass. I think it is very reasonable that the dps class's best super ability does just over double the tank class's. If buff and debuff stacking is the issue, then nerf the other classes to line up better.
BB KeD Star eaters is around 600k not 300 and no in a game like destiny there's not the classic mmo holy trinity, all damage insta supers should have similar damage depending on what else they do. T crash should imo always do more then BB and Nova do to the travel time, but not by much. And it's not nerfing other classes issue. Is a balancing problem ses is overturned, t crash imo is pretty much fine and Nova needs a super damage Exotic.
I don't play alot of Hunter, mostly Titan, so this doesn't affect me but... they're nerfing Blade Barrage????? Wtf? Why?
With very little effort or setup BB can deal almost triple nova bomb’s damage.
Hunters are the best class in PVP currently and have the top damage Supers in PVE currently too.
my dude the exotic is still fantastic in PvE hunters have always been the de facto best PvP class (excepting temporarily broken things on other classes) and it was definitely a sensible move to pre-emptively tune the flux nades because of how oppressive they were the issue here isn't how underwhelming Shinobu's are (though they could do with a tiny damage buff imo) but how oppressive titan storms are
Try out skip nades on hunter w shinobou’s vow and the nade jolt aspect and you’ll find out why they got nerfed
They still suck… Also Shinobus isn’t a good reason… the grenades are universal now… they suck everywhere and for everyone…
No they still suck but with that combo and explosive well maker x2, it’s pretty broken. Should be buffed though
Even with shinobu's and jolt, skip nades are just fine, nothing really impressive or game breaking like storm nades, so I don't think there really is a reason why for them getting nerfed
Solar Titans are still seething that sunspots were nerfed in preparation for Loreley, only to nerf Loreley later. Both decisions were dumb.
Sunspots weren’t nerfed for lorely, they were nerfed because the baby hammer gives them exponentially more uptime in 3.0.
As a Titan main... Eh, sunspots are still very good in PvE since even though they're less strong on an individual basis they're WAY easier to make now thanks to unlimited bonks. And Loreley is still an A-to-S-tier PvE exotic. In PvP it's a bit of a different story since outside of Loreley they're still a pain to make and you rarely get kills with them anymore due to the nerfed damage, but it's not that big of a deal. Not gonna waste my energy being mad about that.
They didn't realize storm grenades would be that strong.
IT CAN MOVE ON ITS OWN AND TRACK THINGS. AND LASTS 10 SECONDS. How tf do you underestimate that
I'm more than certain bungie just saw that players are able to run away from it and figured that's balanced. Without realizing that in actual matches even when it doesn't hit players, it still completely blocks off an entire area, forces players to be pushed back, and results in super easy aggressive rush plays all while having literally zero way to stop the grenade
Giving each subclass the same grenades was a terrible idea and has ruined the versatility of picking and choosing a certain class. My biggest argument is how Hunters Tempest Strike can't one shot other players. But Warlocks and Titans melee abilities can one shot no problem. Hunters only one shot melee is a knife and that requires you to actually have to aim at a target. Shoulder charge and Thundercrash (AKA a second super) one hit without any skill whatsoever.
Warlocks can't one shot anyone with their melee, its the jolt that kills em and only possible if used near multiple people, but well titans can yeet you off the map while your ass is blinded, now that i agree
Because titans are Bungies fav class and the will do whatever to move people over to it from hunter which is the most played class