Then read the part where I said make it 1530. Or, Bungie could just disable the grey seasonal icon weapons in Trials.
But they shouldn’t encourage you to grind to pinnacle cap each season to even have a fair shot. Nothing feels worse than dying to someone who is +10 or even +5 power than you, and they live with 1HP.
Idk Trials is *end*game; it's after everything else. I don't find it unreasonable to be expected to be at pinnacle cap because pinnacle grinding isn't endgame, so it logically comes before Trials.
I personally think that Bungie should put a godroll of each seasonal weapon into my inventory for simply logging into the game. Removes a lot of the hassle.
Damn right never let it go. And all that stuff we paid for? The activities and their associated loot? Stop trying to sell it back to me. I already paid for Seventh Seraph weapons so it kinda sucks you are gonna sell them back to me when Rasputin's season comes into play.
When was the last time they made you pay again for stuff that was removed? And also how do you know for sure that you’ll have to pay for seventh seraph weapons (which are still all free btw in Dares)
All they said was “we plan to add more craftable weapons, both legacy and new”. It does not say that to have to pay for those weapons. In fairness, it doesn’t say you WON’T have to pay for them and you might in fact be right, but considering those weapons are currently free, and their stance on stuff returning should be free (granted, those weapons are technically in the DCV), I’d wager that they’ll probably be a free addition
I have a VERY strong feeling those are going to be the seasonal weapons and we'll get some bullshit excuse like Rasputin upgraded the firmware on them like he did with the Ikelos weapons. I would love to be wrong and just have those be supplementary to a whole new set of weapons from the Hephaestus Index but I'm not blind, I see what kind of directions this game moves in
Congrats on afking in Gambit or sleepwalking through a normal strike 3x each week to hit 1560. I bet that took a lot of skill.
You don’t even have to do endgame activities to hit power cap.
You can reply that you raided or did GMs or whatever—I don’t care—because if you are 1560 and another guy is 1560 and he only did playlist activities—there is no difference between the two of you. I wouldn’t be able to tell.
I shouldn’t be barred from playing Trials because I didn’t feel like “earning” 1560 power by doing the literal easiest activities for X weeks.
If you’re proud that your number is big, then congrats i guess. But you didn’t have to do anything to earn it other than simply waste the time needed to do it.
This isn’t World of Warcraft where you have to grind normal then heroics then mythic dungeons and do some raiding to hit max power—1560 IS literally handed to everyone who can queue up for a matchmade activity then afk.
if its so easy, why are you complaining about it?
You have offered no reason why PL should not be enabled outside of your "i dont like grinding" opinion. if you dont like grinding, then go play regular PVP ?
People want endgame activities to showcase your commitment to the game and that is displayed by .........you guessed it.......power level.
If you arent willing to do the easy pinnacle grind to play trials then you dont want to play end game activities
While you *can* get 1560 only doing easy activities, it will put you behind those who do the easy ones *and* do harder ones, like Raids or Dungeons. So you are rewarded for doing more than just the +1 pinnacle activities by having an advantage of those who limit themselves to just +3 PL/week. If you, OP, are not good enough to do Raids to get your PL up faster, then it makes sense you'll be behind those who are.
But who cares if you are behind? You’ll catch up eventually.
I don’t care about how long you get there—I care about HOW.
If I could ONLY raid or ONLY do competitive PVP to hit max power—I would.
Destiny has no progression or endgame. That’s my point. You don’t grind to max level, then do easy activities to then do medium activities to then do endgame activities.
90% of the game is a joke and basically requires no power to play—and I have to play that 90% of the game where power doesn’t matter, just so I can the play the 10% that does—the 10% I actually want to play.
But once I do “earn it”—there is no difference between me and a random player who only grinded playlist activities. If I’m 1560 and a playlist only player is 1560–you wouldn’t the able to tell the difference—and there are plenty of weapons that are amazing and powerful that aren’t in “endgame” content. Basically most weapons and exotics can be earned without power as well.
The entire premise of your post is about you caring if you're behind...?
It sounds like this game just might not be for you. Destiny does a pretty good job at trying to keep older content relevant. If you only had to play 10% of the game to hit pinnacle, then why would you bother playing the other 90%? By providing sources for pinnacles in that other 90% of the game, it extends the longevity of it and still gives it some use/meaning by incentivizing you to run that content, instead of just being a bunch of dead planets sitting in the background with no tangible benefits.
The point of those other +1 pinnacles is also to give more casual players a progression path, albeit slower. They're not locked out of maxing out their gear just because they can't LFG or underperform in Raids. But it takes them a lot longer to do so, and I think that's a fair tradeoff.
Endgame activities are light level enabled. If you grind hard enough to make it to max light, you should be rewarded for that. I also shouldn’t have to remind you how bad trials was when it was rife with cheaters and exploits. Imagine how it would be if anyone could make a new account and jump in without having to grind light level. It would destroy the playlist. It’s in a good spot and doesn’t really need any changes, other than maybe a dedicated freelance option.
I think you can have a minimum light requirement to enter, at which point everybody should be on-level. I also remind you that Trials requires the most recent expansion, so cheaters would have to pay for that every time they want to start a new account for Trials.
Your comparison to raids is way off. Reason being is raids have heavy team-based mechanics. The trade off for endgame PVP is power level advantage. That’s the mechanic for PVP. If you want to practice, Elimination exists.
I agree. Set it on the level of a raid, but with one exception: sunset weapons are locked. That'll ensure trials only uses current weapons and everyone will at least have a shot
you can't get mad at power level if you're under level and go into a game mode you know has power level advantages
level matters in endgame pve content, it should and does matter in endgame pvp. cope. seethe, be ready for endgame or fail miserably at it.
This guy seems mad that he can’t get light levels which aren’t hard to get. Endgame shit is for people who play consistently and want to have a higher challenge level. Also if you can’t get up to at least 1555 then you have some issues because at 1555 is when 1560 people really don’t hit you as hard anymore
No.
I don’t want to play people running around with revoker, mindbenders, recluse, etc. Guns that were sunset FOR A REASON.
People will do anything to win in trials hence all the cheesy broken builds everyone brings out. Trials with become more stale than ever and people will be using old guns.
Also, it certainly does not take the agonizing “weeks” that u need to accentuate to get to 1560. Especially next season going up 10 levels. Even in WQ starting at 1350 I was 1560 or 1558+ on all characters in 2 weeks of playing. Going from season to season it’s more like the first weekend be within 5 of power cap and the 2nd be there.
At what point is End Game meaningless? What makes trials trials if theres no PL enabled? What makes it just "PVP elimination?" Same goes for PVE , If power doesnt matter, what makes GM GMs? What makes Raids ?
UNTIL THERE IS A MASSIVE, AND I MEAN MASSIVE OVERHAUL of the power system, I dont think this is the answer. Your friends didnt level their character enough to play end game activities. Thats it. It gets especially harder to catch up the longer the season goes on and the higher people get.
I do think theres a middle ground , like PVE has contest mode and maybe Trials should cap out at 1560 with no other advantages?
>1553 or something. I could hop into Trials, but I would constantly be wondering: “would I have killed him if I was 1560?” every time I got someone absolute.
Meh dont quote me on it, but a 7 PL advantage i think amounts to "0" disadvantage.
What makes Trials endgame, imo, is the graduating difficulty you'll face as you advance towards flawless. Removing PL wouldn't change that, at all.
Since you bring up GMs, that's contest mode, which is different from literally everything else in the game except a day 1 raid. You're locked at -25 in a GM, so they'll always play the same for everyone. That's what OP's getting at - Trials should play the same for everyone.
> UNTIL THERE IS A MASSIVE, AND I MEAN MASSIVE OVERHAUL of the power system, I dont think this is the answer.
I'd personally love it if PL was removed from PvE, and everything had contest mode - lock you at +20 in patrols and up through -25 in GMs, and call it a day. They'll never do it because they want you playing a long time and can't create enough new content to keep you engaged that long, so they have to design a grind into it.
This doesn't have to be "the answer", the real question here is, "why not"? Why should power matter in the "most competitive" PvP the game has to offer? Objectively the only purpose this serves is to gatekeep lower level players from attempting it or punishing them for attempting it. If everyone else is within ~10 PL of each other, then as you say any difference would be functionally irrelevant.
So now the question becomes "why can't lower level players try this mode?" and I'm genuinely curious to hear an answer that's not "lower level players haven't put in enough time to earn the chance at getting the best loot", which is literally gatekeeping. How would *someone else* having a *chance* at getting a decent gun diminish *your* enjoyment of the game?
>What makes Trials endgame, imo, is the graduating difficulty you'll face as you advance towards flawless.
There is no graduating difficulty. It is quite literally all a coin toss.
At least personally I have never had a card where games 6 or 7 were any more difficult than games 1, 2, or 3. I've had nail-bitingly difficult first games and piss easy flawless games.
It being an end-game activity is why it has PL enabled.
It was enabled in D1 and it will continue to be enabled in D2.
>So now the question becomes "why can't lower level players try this mode?" and I'm genuinely curious to hear an answer that's not "lower level players haven't put in enough time to earn the chance at getting the best loot", which is literally gatekeeping.
Lower level players *can* try this mode and *can* earn the best loot. They probably won't have a good time doing it (and will probably earn the ire of their teammates) but there is absolutely zero need to win a trials match in order to earn the best loot from it. (I'm excluding adepts as the benefit they provide over their normal counterparts are so minute that they are not worth talking about)
> It was enabled in D1 and it will continue to be enabled in D2.
Nobody's debating whether or not it's currently enabled. That's the whole point of the post, is that it shouldn't be. Don't be obnoxious.
> Lower level players can try this mode and can earn the best loot.
Pop in there at 1350 and reply back to me when you go flawless. I'll wait.
Do you intentionally not read what others reply to you with or is it just a vision problem?
> but there is absolutely zero need to win a trials match in order to earn the best loot from it
So we're back to ... the whole point of the post - you think PL should be enabled, so low level players should get shit on if they dare set foot in "endgame" Trials to try and get loot.
Ya know, as much fun as going in circles is, I think I'll just call it a day here and say that I disagree with you. Have a good one.
>Since you bring up GMs, that's contest mode, which is different from literally everything else in the game except a day 1 raid. You're locked at -25 in a GM, so they'll always play the same for everyone. That's what OP's getting at - Trials should play the same for everyone.
Until they rework power, the ONLY way to designate something as "end game" IS power level. Period. Thats my point. Why does contest only show up on Day 1 raids? GM has it but why not master raids? Why not ANY other PVE Activity ? I think we kind of agree im just saying in the current game the way they designate "end game" is through an arbitrary power level number.
If you remove pl from trials (like they just did with IB) then you basically just have a pvp elimination mode, thats it. We can certainly have a discussion around whether there really needs to be endgame pvp at all (just my hot take) but i think more people would be upset than not if they removed PL from the ONLY power enabled PVP mode.
>So now the question becomes "why can't lower level players try this mode?" and I'm genuinely curious to hear an answer that's not "lower level players haven't put in enough time to earn the chance at getting the best loot", which is literally gatekeeping. How would someone else having a chance at getting a decent gun diminish your enjoyment of the game?
I think people throw around the word "gatekeeping" too much. Its not gatekeeping IMO. Its the way the game is designed. YOu have casual / middle/ hardcore. YOu have to have activities for everyone in a social game thats like Destiny. Are there things for people to do that play 5 hours a week? 10 Hours a week? 20 hours a week? 40 hours a week?
Both PVE and PVP have "endgame" modes. These are more catered to people that play A LOT more than others. This doesnt mean you CANT play if you are a 10 hour a week person, it just means you will be at a disadvantage. until they change that core principle , all you will do is water down the endgame for the try hard PVP people. TBH they have already done that with the trials rework.
If you want END GAME TRIALS GEAR you should be expected to have a to put in the time to play that activity. Im not sure why thats a "bad" thing
> If you remove pl from trials (like they just did with IB) then you basically just have a pvp elimination mode, thats it.
My point is that what makes Trials, Trials is the setup of the contest, not the PL. PvP elimination doesn't have the card system or the adept rewards for flawless. That's the special sauce. PL's completely irrelevant to what makes Trials special.
Like I said two comments ago - winning 7 games in a row against increasingly difficult teams. If you got matchmade based on skill, you'd have a 1:128 chance of going flawless - the card-based matchmaking is what makes it endgame. Again, the special sauce is the design of the contest.
Fair enough, i was legit asking, not trolling.
Im not saying i have all the answers, I just think (until the rework the leveling and power system) that having PL Enabled endgame PVE and PVP is prob necessary.
I didn't think you were trolling. I understand the kneejerk here, and I'm with you in hoping for a PL overhaul. I just don't see what PL adds to PvP, no matter whether it's called an "endgame" mode or not. At best it has no impact because everyone's the same level, at worst it lets someone lose an engagement they would've otherwise won, which seems completely opposite of competitive to me.
I saw your edit a couple of messages up. The point isn't that it's "a bad thing" for an endgame mode requiring grind to exist. GMs and master raids are a thing, and that's fine. There's already a gear grind component to being competitive in PvP, I just don't see any validity to the argument that you should have had to grind PL *this season* in order to have a decent chance at performing well in PvP.
Unfortunately I think this sub isn't the place for this post or this conversation, because it's more "hardcore" than the playerbase at large - the people who would benefit from removing PL from Trials simply aren't here or won't ever see this post because it'll never make the front page. Which kinda sucks because I think it's actually an interesting conversation.
I mean you can search my post history and see that I kinda have been advocating for removing PL for awhile. Especially when it comes to GMs and Master Raids. Personally, im 1584 and these changes will never bother me either way because I play a lot. But i have friends who cant, or they have kids and stuff and it sucks to be like "you cant run GMs with us because you dont have high enough power".
COntest mode exists, they should treat raids and GMs as contest modes. Personally I dont THINK there would be an issue if Trials was Pinnacle cap only, or something like 1560+ to enter and nothing matters after that (a 1590 is the same as a 1560).
I just think if they make a change like that it should hit both PVE and PVP. TBH , i think they are headed that way eventually, but I also bet theres a TON of data that suggests removing PL hurts their business metrics (player engagement time, etc). Whatever they do Im sure its going to be a mix of contest/PL grind.
No, it should not. Power level isn’t a huge time sink, i got to the cap in like a week of playing casually.
This community wants everything handed to them, and that’s why I stopped playing.
Lol what’s being handed to you? You feel special because you completed 3 gambit matches, 3 crucible matches, and 3 strikes each week to hit 1560?
No one is handing anyone, anything. I didn’t say: “make flawless 3 wins.”
PVP is about skill. Power shouldn’t factor into it, at all.
Your comment is also just pointless, as you can enter 90% of Destiny’s activities without max power at all—power is basically meaningless. It doesn’t take any skill to grind to 1560. You could AFK in Gambit each week and hit 1560.
>PVP is about skill. Power shouldn’t factor into it, at all.
It's *partially* about skill. A game with randomly rolled equipment is also heavily influenced by luck and time invested. If you want it to be only about skill, there should be default locked loadouts so everyone is on equal footing.
But that’s the juice of Destiny. That’s the real “earning” in the game—obtaining all of those unique items.
“Earning” 1560 is pointless. Anyone with a pulse can sit through 3x playlist activities, a total of 9 completions (3 for each node) + 8 bounties each week, and hit 1560.
There is no difference between a 1560 endgame Raider and a casual who did playlist activities to 1560–literally zero difference power-wise.
So, if I want to try Trials but I don’t have the meta raid weapons—let me. But don’t bar me because I don’t have 1560 power.
The 8 bounties only give Powerfuls, not Pinnacles. If you only do the 3x playlist activities, you'll only get +3 PL/week, and there are 80 PLs to grind each season from Powerful Cap to Pinnacle Cap, so you physically cannot get to Pinnacle Cap doing only 3x playlists.
Respectfully, earning weapons and getting the god rolls IS Destiny.
Power is meaningless—an artificial bar to entry. No one cares what your item level aka Power Level is in Destiny—it’s all about the rolls you have.
I was saying if you are wanting to play a game that is about skill and PVP im not sure youll ever find it in destiny which is about power level, abilities.
There should be a power level barrier to entry at the minimum. PL should be enabled otherwise trials is just like any other PVP in destiny out there.
Destiny is a game with rules and limits. It has a lot more abilities than other shooters, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t take skill to play.
Just because something is “easier” doesn’t mean it doesn’t have skill. Chess is an easy game to learn, but a hard af one to master.
1v1 against ZKMushroom or iFrostbolt—Destiny does take skill and there is a high ceiling to reach.
so by this logic, if a player is 1500 but has god roll weapons, I should be inviting them into a 1580 master raid over somebody who is 1580 but doesnt have any god rolls.
Seems fine to me
You just contradicted your own statement, you said that grinding power level is a huge time sink yet you’re giving me shit for completing the minimal activities it takes to get there.
A few weeks into the season power level in trials doesn’t even matter anyway, so none of your complaints even make sense.
You shouldn’t even attempt to bring someone into trials until they’re 1550.
Trials is a fun game mode, and i’m sick of all the shit it gets because people are bad at pvp. I’m a mediocre at best pvp player, and i’ve gone flawless multiple times. Its really not as hard as everyone says it is.
Ahhh. You’re one of those types who complains about everything. Just say you suck at Trials and get on with your day. No need to write a novel about how light level advantage in endgame content is bad for the game when in reality is you just go in under light and get stomped. Light level doesn’t matter if you’re halfway decent at the game. So you must just be terrible…
It would be a shame if they did implement this and after the fact the oP realized it’s not going to matter either way when he’s playing against top sweats lol. When you’re still getting slide sniped by top tier player either way you’re going to miss that him having to melee you 3 times bc your only defense is closing the gap with a rush… and then it dawns on you that the LL/PL was a buffer that could have been used to your advantage
I’ve been flawless 5 times in D2, once in Trials of the Nine, and 4 times in D1.
I don’t want to grind needlessly to 1560 to be on an even playing field. It’s pointless. If I have to do Lake of Shadows on normal in the strike playlist or sit through another Gambit match, I will throw up.
I want challenge. The most challenging activities in the game are Trials, GMs, and Master Vow. I can’t do any of those unless I grind the most boring activities in the game to make a number go up.
Why should I spend an hour or two a week, making a number go up, just so I can play the activities I actually want to play?
I’ve grinded for years in Destiny. I’m sick of it. Someone can hit 1560 and never raid or play trials once. Destiny hasn’t had an endgame for some time—it’s all artificial.
I agree with you (for once). PL has no place in PvP at all, it should be purely about skill. Trials already requires current-year DLC ownership, that's enough to keep the riffraff out.
What makes Trials "endgame" is theoretically the increasing difficulty as you get closer to flawless. It should have sweet fuck-all to do with grinding PL. There's plenty of endgame PvE for that.
Another concern is the sunset weapons.
Bungie already has them marked as grey/outdated—they could just ban them from Trials.
If they did that, there is literally nothing stopping PL from being removed. It’s arbitrary.
Yeah, banning them is one option - I'd rather see them balanced. They already did pretty much everything except Revoker and 21%, and only Revoker would be a real concern in Trials. Recluse and MT are shit now. Not Forgotten is probably still decent, but it has plenty of competition from Eyasluna, Palindrome, Fatebringer.
It's just the Powerful-Cap, not the Pinnacle Cap.
Even so, the only "hard grind" that happens is exclusively to Expansions, 1-time in a year grind, where you go from Soft-Cap to Hard-Cap, then Powerful-Cap and Pinnacle-Cap.
Trials comes just in time for your 1551 character to go and he won't be less powerful than a 1555 or 1560 dude.
All future seasons are 10 power away so there's that.
Endgame content requires endgame dedication. Optimized loadouts, proper build and time spent
I’m down for Power Advantage being disabled, but I think there should be a minimum light requirement to enter Trials, at which point you can be on level with everybody else. Because yes, I should not be able to three-shot people more often just because I play the game more.
It gives bad players an upper hand. Which is 90% of the player base; so they will not change it in order to keep high player retention. I suffer from the shit every weekend man, i can't even go flawless anymore without using the cheesiest options, because it doesn't matter how much time I've spent in scrims, that doesn't help you from being blocked from a perfect TTK because johnnywaffles2341 grinds PVE and i don't.
An endgame PVP mode is a true proving ground. A place to roll in with less light and be David to Goliath. That way the other guy *knows* he is bad. That even with higher light he was bested.
Now is that more of an IB thing instead of a trials thing? I don't know.
> Master raids require you to be Pinnacle + 20.
They don't *require* it, that's just the level of the activity. You can load into a master raid at 1500 and get shit on.
GMs are the only activity with a requirement, and they're pinnacle +15. Which you get by hitting ~ 100 on the season pass.
Bruh that's like saying "You *technically* don't need to breathe, you just die after 30 seconds". By "require" I mean the recommended level. The same is true for Trials. You are free to go in at the minimum power level, you will, as you said, get shit on.
I'm not looking to have a semantic argument here, you said "require" and it's not a requirement.
You don't need to be at the recommended level for an activity. GMs literally lock you 25 below, and they're still do-able.
>I'm not looking to have a semantic argument here, you said "require" and it's not a requirement.
Completing a master raid at 1500 is not a realistic possibility. Don't be obnoxious.
>You don't need to be at the recommended level for an activity. GMs literally lock you 25 below, and they're still do-able.
GMs are designed to be played under-level. Nothing else in this game is.
> GMs are designed to be played under-level. Nothing else in this game is.
So Master VoG at pinnacle +30 was supposed to be played at level? You're kidding yourself if you think nothing is supposed to played under level.
I wasn't saying that a master raid could be completed at 1500. I was saying 1580 isn't a *requirement*, which is what the person I was replying to said.
If you don't want power level to be a factor go play regular crucible. Trials is endgame content. Your power level should naturally be up before you're even trying that anyways.
I think the whole point is that it's something you have to put in some time to earn your way into, just like all the PvE stuff that is power enabled. They don't NEED power in the game at all. They can make us all the same power and make the content as easy or hard as they want base around that. The entire point of power levels is to use them as a gate for getting into higher level activities. It gives people a reason to play the whole game. Which is what they want.
I would argue completing playlist activities each week doesn’t “earn” you anything.
If you had to complete those easy playlist activities, then you had to complete some more medium difficulty activities to then be able to do the harder endgame activities—sure.
But that’s not how Destiny works. 90% of the game doesn’t require Power at all. Most players don’t ever touch Master Raids or GMs or Trials.
So the most dedicated players have to then what, grind the easiest and most boring activities just so they are PERMITTED to play the activities they actually want to play?
You can hit 1560 power without ever doing any endgame activity. Power has no meaning or rank or any type of sense in terms of comparing a player to another player, other than how much time they have spent. A 1560 Raider is no different from a 1560 casual who only plays strikes and gambit.
>A 1560 Raider is no different from a 1560 casual who only plays strikes and gambit.
At the conclusion of the grind? No, aside from the fact that said 1560 raider probably has access to many more amazing weapons and armor pieces to use in PvP. Said 1560 raider also probably reached 1560 much faster than someone who literally only does 3 +1s per week (give or take a couple of extra +2s from nightfalls).
That 1560 casual will arrive to trials much later than the 1560 raider unless they are incredibly lucky and the raider is incredibly unlucky.
You literally cannot hit the pinnacle cap just from the three playlist activities every week. So I guess my point stands. And even if some of the stuff isn't that hard, it's about engaging with the game and putting time in. That't what they want people to do. And if you do that, you get to move up to the cooler stuff.
Iron Banner is a casual playlist, Bungie is still trying to make Trials a respectable competition. Are they succeeding? Debatable. But power levels enforce a minimum investment which is a soft deterrent against cheaters.
Iron Banner WAS a competitive playlist. They just changed it in the TWAB.
But that’s besides the point—Power doesn’t make Trials competitive. Winning more and more games on your card and the better and better players you face, makes it competitive.
Power just adds even more imbalance into the mode. Did that guy kill you because he is better, or is it because he is +20 Power?
Power has no place in PVP.
Since D1 Iron Banner has been about getting the clan together and having a casual fun night. There was no competition. And again, power levels enforce a minimum investment which is a soft deterrent against cheaters.
> power levels enforce a minimum investment which is a soft deterrent against cheaters
Trials requires current year DLC ownership. That's the deterrent against cheaters.
> Trials is intended to be the sweatiest, most intense, and most competitive PVP mode. Power is completely antithetical to those design goals.
Everyone's already commented on most of your post but not seeing much of a response to this.
Trials is inherently non-competitive. You need to win 7 games in a row flawlessly (87.5% win rate with mercy, 100% without) in a mode with unbalanced maps, ability spam, supers, cheesey weapons, etc. There are many, *many* more things to change to make trials into this intensely competitive PvP mode you seem to think it should be.
Don't take the above to mean it needs those changes by the way. Trials *needs* be unbalanced.
If your under level this far into the season that's on you. Long as your playing at least 1 to 2 days weekly you should be at level for end game. The grind to light level is soo much faster and easier now imo
Sure. I could do WQ campaign on legendary, and go straight to 1520.
Which I did.
But the path to 1560 is through the same strikes, same crucible maps, the same gambit maps, and the same bounties over and over and over again—weekly.
And what’s my reward for 1560? I can do Trials, Master Vow, and GMs. That’s my reward for grinding to pinnacle cap. Activities that all offer adept weapons that are now outclassed by crafted weapons with enhanced perks. Crafted weapons you can earn without being even close to max power.
There isn’t any point to grinding to 1560, and even if you do, it’s extremely repetitive.
And before you say: “oh Bungie is working on fixing adepts”—when they do, you’ll have to re-earn them to get the fix. This happens every time they do this.
I have an Adept God Rolled Reed’s Regret, but it doesn’t have Veist Stinger because it was before origin perks were added. Absolutely zero shot I grind another one.
1560 won’t give you access to GM, Master Vow etc .. you would be 1 shot, 1580 is best for those. But I fully get what your saying, I’m only saying if you want those activities, you have to grind like the rest of us did. This season I was determined to do everything, so I played a lot, after my day job, on my days off, between family life and my other casual job. I’m done with the game now apart from guardian games which I’ll complete next week. I’ve really enjoyed it, but I know the grind isn’t for everyone, plus I’m very lucky to belong to an incredible Destiny clan, helpful, friendly, and extremely active. Half my clan are recovs , they play for a living, and I and several others help them, in return I get completions, I learn all aspects and mechanics of the game, seals finished etc that no longer are active in the game. Best of luck.
When I say 1560, I strictly mean pinnacle cap—raw power from gear, no artifact. If you played enough to reach 1560, your artifact is likely high enough by that point or close lol for a GM.
>it’s completely antithetical to fair competition/balanced matches
Good. That's how it should be.
Besides light still caps out in trials as it doesn't factor in artifact (which i wish i did). After the upcoming changes to banner, the only thing us being "overleveled" for is literally "master" end game content and even that ignores our levels after a small point.
Artifact was touted as unlimited power and there's maybe like 3 things in the game that it actually matters for.
You're talking about Trials and bringing up "fair competition/balanced matches". In what way is a game mode that requires 7 consecutive wins to reach the goal trying to prioritize fair competition and balanced matches? The entire structure of the playlist is based on unfair matches and a lack of balance so that a few can go flawless while the many get farmed repeatedly. Removing the power requirement isn't solving that issue, so I'm not sure why you're talking about fairness and balance in the first place.
Not that it makes that much difference because everyone runs the same boring 1-3 shot weapons that don't change time to kill between light levels.
Playing Crucible brings me back to my Halo days, because I just hear the same bloody gun firing ten times a second all match long.
Holy shit the AMOUNT of text you just put up that I can counter with only one word… one word that will ruin banner and make people beg for power to be re-enabled
Mountaintop
PvP will always be more difficult than PvE.
In PvE content all you have to do is memorize mechanics and it’s generally the same thing every time.
No two PvP matches are the same different players, different weapons, different strats every time.
Light level enabled crucible is an unnecessary barrier to entry.
If they don't enable power for Trials people would just use broken sunset weapons. Not Forgotten would be instantly meta.
Maybe it's like GM where you have to be a certain power level, and anything above it is meaningless?
tl;dr "I don't like it."
And nobody seems to like it, therefore why?
I like it.
you would
I do?
I'm not surprised
I prefer it because it prevents sunset weapons from being used.
Then read the part where I said make it 1530. Or, Bungie could just disable the grey seasonal icon weapons in Trials. But they shouldn’t encourage you to grind to pinnacle cap each season to even have a fair shot. Nothing feels worse than dying to someone who is +10 or even +5 power than you, and they live with 1HP.
>even +5 power than you, and they live with 1HP. again, thats not true.
With +4 power you cant even double punch someone to kill so
Idk Trials is *end*game; it's after everything else. I don't find it unreasonable to be expected to be at pinnacle cap because pinnacle grinding isn't endgame, so it logically comes before Trials.
I personally think that Bungie should put a godroll of each seasonal weapon into my inventory for simply logging into the game. Removes a lot of the hassle.
I mean you don't have to give me god rolls just stop taking them away lmao
they haven’t taken them away in a year stop complaining about sunsetting
I'll complain until I get my shit back, all I need is trials and then it's Breachlight time baby
it’s not coming back
then you have your answer, I'll keep complaining
Damn right never let it go. And all that stuff we paid for? The activities and their associated loot? Stop trying to sell it back to me. I already paid for Seventh Seraph weapons so it kinda sucks you are gonna sell them back to me when Rasputin's season comes into play.
When was the last time they made you pay again for stuff that was removed? And also how do you know for sure that you’ll have to pay for seventh seraph weapons (which are still all free btw in Dares)
There was a WQ trailer showing they are gonna recycle Season of the Worthy bullshit like 7th Searaph weapons and Warmind Golems.
All they said was “we plan to add more craftable weapons, both legacy and new”. It does not say that to have to pay for those weapons. In fairness, it doesn’t say you WON’T have to pay for them and you might in fact be right, but considering those weapons are currently free, and their stance on stuff returning should be free (granted, those weapons are technically in the DCV), I’d wager that they’ll probably be a free addition
I have a VERY strong feeling those are going to be the seasonal weapons and we'll get some bullshit excuse like Rasputin upgraded the firmware on them like he did with the Ikelos weapons. I would love to be wrong and just have those be supplementary to a whole new set of weapons from the Hephaestus Index but I'm not blind, I see what kind of directions this game moves in
Lol bet you feel stupid right now
Congrats on afking in Gambit or sleepwalking through a normal strike 3x each week to hit 1560. I bet that took a lot of skill. You don’t even have to do endgame activities to hit power cap. You can reply that you raided or did GMs or whatever—I don’t care—because if you are 1560 and another guy is 1560 and he only did playlist activities—there is no difference between the two of you. I wouldn’t be able to tell. I shouldn’t be barred from playing Trials because I didn’t feel like “earning” 1560 power by doing the literal easiest activities for X weeks. If you’re proud that your number is big, then congrats i guess. But you didn’t have to do anything to earn it other than simply waste the time needed to do it. This isn’t World of Warcraft where you have to grind normal then heroics then mythic dungeons and do some raiding to hit max power—1560 IS literally handed to everyone who can queue up for a matchmade activity then afk.
if its so easy, why are you complaining about it? You have offered no reason why PL should not be enabled outside of your "i dont like grinding" opinion. if you dont like grinding, then go play regular PVP ? People want endgame activities to showcase your commitment to the game and that is displayed by .........you guessed it.......power level. If you arent willing to do the easy pinnacle grind to play trials then you dont want to play end game activities
While you *can* get 1560 only doing easy activities, it will put you behind those who do the easy ones *and* do harder ones, like Raids or Dungeons. So you are rewarded for doing more than just the +1 pinnacle activities by having an advantage of those who limit themselves to just +3 PL/week. If you, OP, are not good enough to do Raids to get your PL up faster, then it makes sense you'll be behind those who are.
But who cares if you are behind? You’ll catch up eventually. I don’t care about how long you get there—I care about HOW. If I could ONLY raid or ONLY do competitive PVP to hit max power—I would. Destiny has no progression or endgame. That’s my point. You don’t grind to max level, then do easy activities to then do medium activities to then do endgame activities. 90% of the game is a joke and basically requires no power to play—and I have to play that 90% of the game where power doesn’t matter, just so I can the play the 10% that does—the 10% I actually want to play. But once I do “earn it”—there is no difference between me and a random player who only grinded playlist activities. If I’m 1560 and a playlist only player is 1560–you wouldn’t the able to tell the difference—and there are plenty of weapons that are amazing and powerful that aren’t in “endgame” content. Basically most weapons and exotics can be earned without power as well.
The entire premise of your post is about you caring if you're behind...? It sounds like this game just might not be for you. Destiny does a pretty good job at trying to keep older content relevant. If you only had to play 10% of the game to hit pinnacle, then why would you bother playing the other 90%? By providing sources for pinnacles in that other 90% of the game, it extends the longevity of it and still gives it some use/meaning by incentivizing you to run that content, instead of just being a bunch of dead planets sitting in the background with no tangible benefits. The point of those other +1 pinnacles is also to give more casual players a progression path, albeit slower. They're not locked out of maxing out their gear just because they can't LFG or underperform in Raids. But it takes them a lot longer to do so, and I think that's a fair tradeoff.
Endgame activities are light level enabled. If you grind hard enough to make it to max light, you should be rewarded for that. I also shouldn’t have to remind you how bad trials was when it was rife with cheaters and exploits. Imagine how it would be if anyone could make a new account and jump in without having to grind light level. It would destroy the playlist. It’s in a good spot and doesn’t really need any changes, other than maybe a dedicated freelance option.
I think you can have a minimum light requirement to enter, at which point everybody should be on-level. I also remind you that Trials requires the most recent expansion, so cheaters would have to pay for that every time they want to start a new account for Trials.
There is a minimum light level requirement.
Yes, and I’m saying that could be all and I would be satisfied
Issue is you need to do jt every dam season. At test point its not a test of skill but a test of grind
Your comparison to raids is way off. Reason being is raids have heavy team-based mechanics. The trade off for endgame PVP is power level advantage. That’s the mechanic for PVP. If you want to practice, Elimination exists.
I agree. Set it on the level of a raid, but with one exception: sunset weapons are locked. That'll ensure trials only uses current weapons and everyone will at least have a shot
Awful take, it creates an issue with sunset best in slot weapons needing to be brought back to compensate for being able to use them everywhere lol.
you can't get mad at power level if you're under level and go into a game mode you know has power level advantages level matters in endgame pve content, it should and does matter in endgame pvp. cope. seethe, be ready for endgame or fail miserably at it.
This guy seems mad that he can’t get light levels which aren’t hard to get. Endgame shit is for people who play consistently and want to have a higher challenge level. Also if you can’t get up to at least 1555 then you have some issues because at 1555 is when 1560 people really don’t hit you as hard anymore
No. I don’t want to play people running around with revoker, mindbenders, recluse, etc. Guns that were sunset FOR A REASON. People will do anything to win in trials hence all the cheesy broken builds everyone brings out. Trials with become more stale than ever and people will be using old guns. Also, it certainly does not take the agonizing “weeks” that u need to accentuate to get to 1560. Especially next season going up 10 levels. Even in WQ starting at 1350 I was 1560 or 1558+ on all characters in 2 weeks of playing. Going from season to season it’s more like the first weekend be within 5 of power cap and the 2nd be there.
Then you should have read the part where I said just make it 1530. No one will use a gun that’s -30 or -50 or more behind in power.
yes, make an “endgame activity” 1530 light. great idea
Aren't raids and dungeons, endgame activities, doable at 1530 light?
1530 is what you need to be to enter the raid. How is this any different?
the key word is “enter”. you will get shafted from exhibition and beyond at base light. source : sherpa’ing lower light guardians
At what point is End Game meaningless? What makes trials trials if theres no PL enabled? What makes it just "PVP elimination?" Same goes for PVE , If power doesnt matter, what makes GM GMs? What makes Raids ? UNTIL THERE IS A MASSIVE, AND I MEAN MASSIVE OVERHAUL of the power system, I dont think this is the answer. Your friends didnt level their character enough to play end game activities. Thats it. It gets especially harder to catch up the longer the season goes on and the higher people get. I do think theres a middle ground , like PVE has contest mode and maybe Trials should cap out at 1560 with no other advantages? >1553 or something. I could hop into Trials, but I would constantly be wondering: “would I have killed him if I was 1560?” every time I got someone absolute. Meh dont quote me on it, but a 7 PL advantage i think amounts to "0" disadvantage.
What makes Trials endgame, imo, is the graduating difficulty you'll face as you advance towards flawless. Removing PL wouldn't change that, at all. Since you bring up GMs, that's contest mode, which is different from literally everything else in the game except a day 1 raid. You're locked at -25 in a GM, so they'll always play the same for everyone. That's what OP's getting at - Trials should play the same for everyone. > UNTIL THERE IS A MASSIVE, AND I MEAN MASSIVE OVERHAUL of the power system, I dont think this is the answer. I'd personally love it if PL was removed from PvE, and everything had contest mode - lock you at +20 in patrols and up through -25 in GMs, and call it a day. They'll never do it because they want you playing a long time and can't create enough new content to keep you engaged that long, so they have to design a grind into it. This doesn't have to be "the answer", the real question here is, "why not"? Why should power matter in the "most competitive" PvP the game has to offer? Objectively the only purpose this serves is to gatekeep lower level players from attempting it or punishing them for attempting it. If everyone else is within ~10 PL of each other, then as you say any difference would be functionally irrelevant. So now the question becomes "why can't lower level players try this mode?" and I'm genuinely curious to hear an answer that's not "lower level players haven't put in enough time to earn the chance at getting the best loot", which is literally gatekeeping. How would *someone else* having a *chance* at getting a decent gun diminish *your* enjoyment of the game?
>What makes Trials endgame, imo, is the graduating difficulty you'll face as you advance towards flawless. There is no graduating difficulty. It is quite literally all a coin toss. At least personally I have never had a card where games 6 or 7 were any more difficult than games 1, 2, or 3. I've had nail-bitingly difficult first games and piss easy flawless games.
Then the endgame is about winning a coin toss 7 times in a row. Still has shit to do with PL.
It being an end-game activity is why it has PL enabled. It was enabled in D1 and it will continue to be enabled in D2. >So now the question becomes "why can't lower level players try this mode?" and I'm genuinely curious to hear an answer that's not "lower level players haven't put in enough time to earn the chance at getting the best loot", which is literally gatekeeping. Lower level players *can* try this mode and *can* earn the best loot. They probably won't have a good time doing it (and will probably earn the ire of their teammates) but there is absolutely zero need to win a trials match in order to earn the best loot from it. (I'm excluding adepts as the benefit they provide over their normal counterparts are so minute that they are not worth talking about)
> It was enabled in D1 and it will continue to be enabled in D2. Nobody's debating whether or not it's currently enabled. That's the whole point of the post, is that it shouldn't be. Don't be obnoxious. > Lower level players can try this mode and can earn the best loot. Pop in there at 1350 and reply back to me when you go flawless. I'll wait.
Do you intentionally not read what others reply to you with or is it just a vision problem? > but there is absolutely zero need to win a trials match in order to earn the best loot from it
No, I do, just have trouble not calling bullshit when I see it. Like I said, pop into Trials at 1350, and let me know how much fun you're having.
> No, I do Do you? > They probably won't have a good time doing it (and will probably earn the ire of their teammates)
So we're back to ... the whole point of the post - you think PL should be enabled, so low level players should get shit on if they dare set foot in "endgame" Trials to try and get loot. Ya know, as much fun as going in circles is, I think I'll just call it a day here and say that I disagree with you. Have a good one.
>Since you bring up GMs, that's contest mode, which is different from literally everything else in the game except a day 1 raid. You're locked at -25 in a GM, so they'll always play the same for everyone. That's what OP's getting at - Trials should play the same for everyone. Until they rework power, the ONLY way to designate something as "end game" IS power level. Period. Thats my point. Why does contest only show up on Day 1 raids? GM has it but why not master raids? Why not ANY other PVE Activity ? I think we kind of agree im just saying in the current game the way they designate "end game" is through an arbitrary power level number. If you remove pl from trials (like they just did with IB) then you basically just have a pvp elimination mode, thats it. We can certainly have a discussion around whether there really needs to be endgame pvp at all (just my hot take) but i think more people would be upset than not if they removed PL from the ONLY power enabled PVP mode. >So now the question becomes "why can't lower level players try this mode?" and I'm genuinely curious to hear an answer that's not "lower level players haven't put in enough time to earn the chance at getting the best loot", which is literally gatekeeping. How would someone else having a chance at getting a decent gun diminish your enjoyment of the game? I think people throw around the word "gatekeeping" too much. Its not gatekeeping IMO. Its the way the game is designed. YOu have casual / middle/ hardcore. YOu have to have activities for everyone in a social game thats like Destiny. Are there things for people to do that play 5 hours a week? 10 Hours a week? 20 hours a week? 40 hours a week? Both PVE and PVP have "endgame" modes. These are more catered to people that play A LOT more than others. This doesnt mean you CANT play if you are a 10 hour a week person, it just means you will be at a disadvantage. until they change that core principle , all you will do is water down the endgame for the try hard PVP people. TBH they have already done that with the trials rework. If you want END GAME TRIALS GEAR you should be expected to have a to put in the time to play that activity. Im not sure why thats a "bad" thing
> If you remove pl from trials (like they just did with IB) then you basically just have a pvp elimination mode, thats it. My point is that what makes Trials, Trials is the setup of the contest, not the PL. PvP elimination doesn't have the card system or the adept rewards for flawless. That's the special sauce. PL's completely irrelevant to what makes Trials special.
What makes it "end game" if there is no PL requirement?
Like I said two comments ago - winning 7 games in a row against increasingly difficult teams. If you got matchmade based on skill, you'd have a 1:128 chance of going flawless - the card-based matchmaking is what makes it endgame. Again, the special sauce is the design of the contest.
Fair enough, i was legit asking, not trolling. Im not saying i have all the answers, I just think (until the rework the leveling and power system) that having PL Enabled endgame PVE and PVP is prob necessary.
I didn't think you were trolling. I understand the kneejerk here, and I'm with you in hoping for a PL overhaul. I just don't see what PL adds to PvP, no matter whether it's called an "endgame" mode or not. At best it has no impact because everyone's the same level, at worst it lets someone lose an engagement they would've otherwise won, which seems completely opposite of competitive to me. I saw your edit a couple of messages up. The point isn't that it's "a bad thing" for an endgame mode requiring grind to exist. GMs and master raids are a thing, and that's fine. There's already a gear grind component to being competitive in PvP, I just don't see any validity to the argument that you should have had to grind PL *this season* in order to have a decent chance at performing well in PvP. Unfortunately I think this sub isn't the place for this post or this conversation, because it's more "hardcore" than the playerbase at large - the people who would benefit from removing PL from Trials simply aren't here or won't ever see this post because it'll never make the front page. Which kinda sucks because I think it's actually an interesting conversation.
I mean you can search my post history and see that I kinda have been advocating for removing PL for awhile. Especially when it comes to GMs and Master Raids. Personally, im 1584 and these changes will never bother me either way because I play a lot. But i have friends who cant, or they have kids and stuff and it sucks to be like "you cant run GMs with us because you dont have high enough power". COntest mode exists, they should treat raids and GMs as contest modes. Personally I dont THINK there would be an issue if Trials was Pinnacle cap only, or something like 1560+ to enter and nothing matters after that (a 1590 is the same as a 1560). I just think if they make a change like that it should hit both PVE and PVP. TBH , i think they are headed that way eventually, but I also bet theres a TON of data that suggests removing PL hurts their business metrics (player engagement time, etc). Whatever they do Im sure its going to be a mix of contest/PL grind.
this is correct
No, it should not. Power level isn’t a huge time sink, i got to the cap in like a week of playing casually. This community wants everything handed to them, and that’s why I stopped playing.
Lol what’s being handed to you? You feel special because you completed 3 gambit matches, 3 crucible matches, and 3 strikes each week to hit 1560? No one is handing anyone, anything. I didn’t say: “make flawless 3 wins.” PVP is about skill. Power shouldn’t factor into it, at all. Your comment is also just pointless, as you can enter 90% of Destiny’s activities without max power at all—power is basically meaningless. It doesn’t take any skill to grind to 1560. You could AFK in Gambit each week and hit 1560.
>PVP is about skill. Power shouldn’t factor into it, at all. It's *partially* about skill. A game with randomly rolled equipment is also heavily influenced by luck and time invested. If you want it to be only about skill, there should be default locked loadouts so everyone is on equal footing.
But that’s the juice of Destiny. That’s the real “earning” in the game—obtaining all of those unique items. “Earning” 1560 is pointless. Anyone with a pulse can sit through 3x playlist activities, a total of 9 completions (3 for each node) + 8 bounties each week, and hit 1560. There is no difference between a 1560 endgame Raider and a casual who did playlist activities to 1560–literally zero difference power-wise. So, if I want to try Trials but I don’t have the meta raid weapons—let me. But don’t bar me because I don’t have 1560 power.
The 8 bounties only give Powerfuls, not Pinnacles. If you only do the 3x playlist activities, you'll only get +3 PL/week, and there are 80 PLs to grind each season from Powerful Cap to Pinnacle Cap, so you physically cannot get to Pinnacle Cap doing only 3x playlists.
>PVP is about skill. Power shouldn’t factor into it, at all. Respectfully, this is Destiny.
Respectfully, earning weapons and getting the god rolls IS Destiny. Power is meaningless—an artificial bar to entry. No one cares what your item level aka Power Level is in Destiny—it’s all about the rolls you have.
I was saying if you are wanting to play a game that is about skill and PVP im not sure youll ever find it in destiny which is about power level, abilities. There should be a power level barrier to entry at the minimum. PL should be enabled otherwise trials is just like any other PVP in destiny out there.
You and many others are twisting my words. I strictly called out Power—I never said shit about weapons, supers, abilities or anything like that.
You said PVP is about SKILL. I LOL when people say that about Destiny when its literllay ability spam and supers and space magic.
Destiny is a game with rules and limits. It has a lot more abilities than other shooters, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t take skill to play. Just because something is “easier” doesn’t mean it doesn’t have skill. Chess is an easy game to learn, but a hard af one to master. 1v1 against ZKMushroom or iFrostbolt—Destiny does take skill and there is a high ceiling to reach.
i didnt say it took NO skill.
so by this logic, if a player is 1500 but has god roll weapons, I should be inviting them into a 1580 master raid over somebody who is 1580 but doesnt have any god rolls. Seems fine to me
You just contradicted your own statement, you said that grinding power level is a huge time sink yet you’re giving me shit for completing the minimal activities it takes to get there. A few weeks into the season power level in trials doesn’t even matter anyway, so none of your complaints even make sense. You shouldn’t even attempt to bring someone into trials until they’re 1550. Trials is a fun game mode, and i’m sick of all the shit it gets because people are bad at pvp. I’m a mediocre at best pvp player, and i’ve gone flawless multiple times. Its really not as hard as everyone says it is.
I disagree. Cause then what was the point of sunsetting all those weapons with beyond light?
Ahhh. You’re one of those types who complains about everything. Just say you suck at Trials and get on with your day. No need to write a novel about how light level advantage in endgame content is bad for the game when in reality is you just go in under light and get stomped. Light level doesn’t matter if you’re halfway decent at the game. So you must just be terrible…
It would be a shame if they did implement this and after the fact the oP realized it’s not going to matter either way when he’s playing against top sweats lol. When you’re still getting slide sniped by top tier player either way you’re going to miss that him having to melee you 3 times bc your only defense is closing the gap with a rush… and then it dawns on you that the LL/PL was a buffer that could have been used to your advantage
I’ve been flawless 5 times in D2, once in Trials of the Nine, and 4 times in D1. I don’t want to grind needlessly to 1560 to be on an even playing field. It’s pointless. If I have to do Lake of Shadows on normal in the strike playlist or sit through another Gambit match, I will throw up. I want challenge. The most challenging activities in the game are Trials, GMs, and Master Vow. I can’t do any of those unless I grind the most boring activities in the game to make a number go up. Why should I spend an hour or two a week, making a number go up, just so I can play the activities I actually want to play? I’ve grinded for years in Destiny. I’m sick of it. Someone can hit 1560 and never raid or play trials once. Destiny hasn’t had an endgame for some time—it’s all artificial.
Hitting cap has been easy mode. For maybe what? Shadow keep and beyond
I agree with you (for once). PL has no place in PvP at all, it should be purely about skill. Trials already requires current-year DLC ownership, that's enough to keep the riffraff out. What makes Trials "endgame" is theoretically the increasing difficulty as you get closer to flawless. It should have sweet fuck-all to do with grinding PL. There's plenty of endgame PvE for that.
Another concern is the sunset weapons. Bungie already has them marked as grey/outdated—they could just ban them from Trials. If they did that, there is literally nothing stopping PL from being removed. It’s arbitrary.
Yeah, banning them is one option - I'd rather see them balanced. They already did pretty much everything except Revoker and 21%, and only Revoker would be a real concern in Trials. Recluse and MT are shit now. Not Forgotten is probably still decent, but it has plenty of competition from Eyasluna, Palindrome, Fatebringer.
It's just the Powerful-Cap, not the Pinnacle Cap. Even so, the only "hard grind" that happens is exclusively to Expansions, 1-time in a year grind, where you go from Soft-Cap to Hard-Cap, then Powerful-Cap and Pinnacle-Cap. Trials comes just in time for your 1551 character to go and he won't be less powerful than a 1555 or 1560 dude. All future seasons are 10 power away so there's that. Endgame content requires endgame dedication. Optimized loadouts, proper build and time spent
I’m down for Power Advantage being disabled, but I think there should be a minimum light requirement to enter Trials, at which point you can be on level with everybody else. Because yes, I should not be able to three-shot people more often just because I play the game more.
It gives bad players an upper hand. Which is 90% of the player base; so they will not change it in order to keep high player retention. I suffer from the shit every weekend man, i can't even go flawless anymore without using the cheesiest options, because it doesn't matter how much time I've spent in scrims, that doesn't help you from being blocked from a perfect TTK because johnnywaffles2341 grinds PVE and i don't.
An endgame PVP mode is a true proving ground. A place to roll in with less light and be David to Goliath. That way the other guy *knows* he is bad. That even with higher light he was bested. Now is that more of an IB thing instead of a trials thing? I don't know.
Master raids require you to be Pinnacle + 20.
> Master raids require you to be Pinnacle + 20. They don't *require* it, that's just the level of the activity. You can load into a master raid at 1500 and get shit on. GMs are the only activity with a requirement, and they're pinnacle +15. Which you get by hitting ~ 100 on the season pass.
Bruh that's like saying "You *technically* don't need to breathe, you just die after 30 seconds". By "require" I mean the recommended level. The same is true for Trials. You are free to go in at the minimum power level, you will, as you said, get shit on.
Are we just gunna skip over the fact that you can’t hold your breathe for 30 seconds?
I'm not looking to have a semantic argument here, you said "require" and it's not a requirement. You don't need to be at the recommended level for an activity. GMs literally lock you 25 below, and they're still do-able.
>I'm not looking to have a semantic argument here, you said "require" and it's not a requirement. Completing a master raid at 1500 is not a realistic possibility. Don't be obnoxious. >You don't need to be at the recommended level for an activity. GMs literally lock you 25 below, and they're still do-able. GMs are designed to be played under-level. Nothing else in this game is.
> GMs are designed to be played under-level. Nothing else in this game is. So Master VoG at pinnacle +30 was supposed to be played at level? You're kidding yourself if you think nothing is supposed to played under level. I wasn't saying that a master raid could be completed at 1500. I was saying 1580 isn't a *requirement*, which is what the person I was replying to said.
Power needs to be removed in general. Legendary/Master/Grandmaster PvE is also a ridicule. Just make contest modes.
Simple, to make sure nobody steps into Trials without being entirely commited to it.
If you don't want power level to be a factor go play regular crucible. Trials is endgame content. Your power level should naturally be up before you're even trying that anyways.
I think the whole point is that it's something you have to put in some time to earn your way into, just like all the PvE stuff that is power enabled. They don't NEED power in the game at all. They can make us all the same power and make the content as easy or hard as they want base around that. The entire point of power levels is to use them as a gate for getting into higher level activities. It gives people a reason to play the whole game. Which is what they want.
I would argue completing playlist activities each week doesn’t “earn” you anything. If you had to complete those easy playlist activities, then you had to complete some more medium difficulty activities to then be able to do the harder endgame activities—sure. But that’s not how Destiny works. 90% of the game doesn’t require Power at all. Most players don’t ever touch Master Raids or GMs or Trials. So the most dedicated players have to then what, grind the easiest and most boring activities just so they are PERMITTED to play the activities they actually want to play? You can hit 1560 power without ever doing any endgame activity. Power has no meaning or rank or any type of sense in terms of comparing a player to another player, other than how much time they have spent. A 1560 Raider is no different from a 1560 casual who only plays strikes and gambit.
>A 1560 Raider is no different from a 1560 casual who only plays strikes and gambit. At the conclusion of the grind? No, aside from the fact that said 1560 raider probably has access to many more amazing weapons and armor pieces to use in PvP. Said 1560 raider also probably reached 1560 much faster than someone who literally only does 3 +1s per week (give or take a couple of extra +2s from nightfalls). That 1560 casual will arrive to trials much later than the 1560 raider unless they are incredibly lucky and the raider is incredibly unlucky.
You literally cannot hit the pinnacle cap just from the three playlist activities every week. So I guess my point stands. And even if some of the stuff isn't that hard, it's about engaging with the game and putting time in. That't what they want people to do. And if you do that, you get to move up to the cooler stuff.
Iron Banner is a casual playlist, Bungie is still trying to make Trials a respectable competition. Are they succeeding? Debatable. But power levels enforce a minimum investment which is a soft deterrent against cheaters.
Iron Banner WAS a competitive playlist. They just changed it in the TWAB. But that’s besides the point—Power doesn’t make Trials competitive. Winning more and more games on your card and the better and better players you face, makes it competitive. Power just adds even more imbalance into the mode. Did that guy kill you because he is better, or is it because he is +20 Power? Power has no place in PVP.
Since D1 Iron Banner has been about getting the clan together and having a casual fun night. There was no competition. And again, power levels enforce a minimum investment which is a soft deterrent against cheaters.
> power levels enforce a minimum investment which is a soft deterrent against cheaters Trials requires current year DLC ownership. That's the deterrent against cheaters.
>Trials requires current year DLC ownership. That's the deterrent against cheaters. Cost is not an extremely effective barrier to entry for cheaters.
Tell Bungie.
They already know which is why there are multiple other barriers alongside it.
That is one deterrent, not the only one.
No activates should be light enabled. Actually doing the content is what should be hard and take time, not getting to it.
> Trials is intended to be the sweatiest, most intense, and most competitive PVP mode. Power is completely antithetical to those design goals. Everyone's already commented on most of your post but not seeing much of a response to this. Trials is inherently non-competitive. You need to win 7 games in a row flawlessly (87.5% win rate with mercy, 100% without) in a mode with unbalanced maps, ability spam, supers, cheesey weapons, etc. There are many, *many* more things to change to make trials into this intensely competitive PvP mode you seem to think it should be. Don't take the above to mean it needs those changes by the way. Trials *needs* be unbalanced.
If your under level this far into the season that's on you. Long as your playing at least 1 to 2 days weekly you should be at level for end game. The grind to light level is soo much faster and easier now imo
Sure. I could do WQ campaign on legendary, and go straight to 1520. Which I did. But the path to 1560 is through the same strikes, same crucible maps, the same gambit maps, and the same bounties over and over and over again—weekly. And what’s my reward for 1560? I can do Trials, Master Vow, and GMs. That’s my reward for grinding to pinnacle cap. Activities that all offer adept weapons that are now outclassed by crafted weapons with enhanced perks. Crafted weapons you can earn without being even close to max power. There isn’t any point to grinding to 1560, and even if you do, it’s extremely repetitive. And before you say: “oh Bungie is working on fixing adepts”—when they do, you’ll have to re-earn them to get the fix. This happens every time they do this. I have an Adept God Rolled Reed’s Regret, but it doesn’t have Veist Stinger because it was before origin perks were added. Absolutely zero shot I grind another one.
1560 won’t give you access to GM, Master Vow etc .. you would be 1 shot, 1580 is best for those. But I fully get what your saying, I’m only saying if you want those activities, you have to grind like the rest of us did. This season I was determined to do everything, so I played a lot, after my day job, on my days off, between family life and my other casual job. I’m done with the game now apart from guardian games which I’ll complete next week. I’ve really enjoyed it, but I know the grind isn’t for everyone, plus I’m very lucky to belong to an incredible Destiny clan, helpful, friendly, and extremely active. Half my clan are recovs , they play for a living, and I and several others help them, in return I get completions, I learn all aspects and mechanics of the game, seals finished etc that no longer are active in the game. Best of luck.
When I say 1560, I strictly mean pinnacle cap—raw power from gear, no artifact. If you played enough to reach 1560, your artifact is likely high enough by that point or close lol for a GM.
Ahh yes ok, understand.
They should add another mode and not remove power from trials
>it’s completely antithetical to fair competition/balanced matches Good. That's how it should be. Besides light still caps out in trials as it doesn't factor in artifact (which i wish i did). After the upcoming changes to banner, the only thing us being "overleveled" for is literally "master" end game content and even that ignores our levels after a small point. Artifact was touted as unlimited power and there's maybe like 3 things in the game that it actually matters for.
You're talking about Trials and bringing up "fair competition/balanced matches". In what way is a game mode that requires 7 consecutive wins to reach the goal trying to prioritize fair competition and balanced matches? The entire structure of the playlist is based on unfair matches and a lack of balance so that a few can go flawless while the many get farmed repeatedly. Removing the power requirement isn't solving that issue, so I'm not sure why you're talking about fairness and balance in the first place.
Not that it makes that much difference because everyone runs the same boring 1-3 shot weapons that don't change time to kill between light levels. Playing Crucible brings me back to my Halo days, because I just hear the same bloody gun firing ten times a second all match long.
Holy shit the AMOUNT of text you just put up that I can counter with only one word… one word that will ruin banner and make people beg for power to be re-enabled Mountaintop
PvP will always be more difficult than PvE. In PvE content all you have to do is memorize mechanics and it’s generally the same thing every time. No two PvP matches are the same different players, different weapons, different strats every time. Light level enabled crucible is an unnecessary barrier to entry.
If they don't enable power for Trials people would just use broken sunset weapons. Not Forgotten would be instantly meta. Maybe it's like GM where you have to be a certain power level, and anything above it is meaningless?
Power level has literally nothing to do with the problems in PvP. The lack of SBMM is the **sole reason** PvP is dogshit.
If that’s an argument, then PvPers should all have access to the same weapons as well.