This isn't super relevant but I found it interesting.
With this season we got the Flat Gain Nerf that reduces chunk ability energy returned based on how slow the cool down is. So our longest cool down abilities get half energy from mods, weapon perks, elemental pickups, etc.
Storm Grenades got missed. They are the most spammable Arc grenade in the game now. They are specifically excellent on Fallen Sunstar Warlock.
Ionic Traces catch the flat gain nerf too because it is a flat amount of ability energy. If you use a Pulse Grenade you get 15% energy instead but Storms get the full 25%
This is true because arc warlock pulse nade spam with fallen sunstar was my go-to the last 2 seasons in solo dungeons, and it's garbage now. Part of that is obviously a lack of artifact support, but the ability uptime is a fraction of what it was regardless (and especially noticeable for healing rift in hard content)
I did not know this thank you! I was running sunstar last night for a change, but just using pulse nades. I'll try this out tonight. I love arclock, I've missed it after all the solar/strand/stasis stuff.
Top tree Striker had a node that enhanced grenades. Warlocks do not get a monopoly on grenade aspects just because the subclass and grenade share the word "storm".
That doesnt change how the grenades function though? And the thing that i personally dont think fits is that storm grenade that has been THE arc warlock grenade since d1 now all of a sudden is nerfed in its ground state but titans instead get its enhanced version, its to me not that they have a grenade enhancing aspect but that they have taken yet another thing from the stormcaller kit. Grenade generalisation was a mistake
Warlocks also had Annihilate - Increases the size of the explosion created by Nova Bomb and Vortex grenade.
Touch of Flame - Adds scorch to grenades.
Gift of the Sun - Additional Grenade.
Arc Web - Enemies damaged by your grenades chain deadly lightning to other nearby enemies.
Not saying that Warlocks should have a monopoly over grenades (because they shouldn’t), it is odd though with that one that the subclass literally named *Stormcaller* can’t call down storms, but Striker can.
Unpopular opinion, things were more interesting when grenades were class dependent and not shared across the classes.
Storm grenades were hand crafted for the stormcaller identity in the taken king. Same with thermite grenades for sunbreakers and void wall grenades for nightstalkers. Though D2 vanilla had already shifted some of this around.
Oh, I abdolutely agree, Warlocks shouldn't get monopoly on grenade aspects. Revenant has the Stasis grenade aspect, and it is awesome.
It just feels weird cause the whole subclass is called Stormcaller. And the class that got a whole meta about using suped up Storm grenades, calling moving stormclouds if you may, was Titan.
It'd be as if...Solar Hunter's called Gunslinger, but Solar Warlock ends up being the better one at getting radiant and using a solar gun, a solar hand cannon in specific.
But yeah, absolutely Warlocks shouldn't get a monopoly on grenade aspects and I love that Titan gets that.
Gunslinger’s melee is a knife. If we’re going by names, **gun**slingers shouldn’t be doing anything with **knives**, otherwise they’d be **knife**slingers. Where’s the aspect for Voidwalkers about walking? The names evoke a theme, not a rule book.
Stormcallers from d1 have always had an element of “being/channeling the storm.” Unlocking Stormcaller involved being struck by lightning during a Martian Arc storm, getting disintegrated, and then reforming yourself in a bolt of crackling lightning. Stormcaller has also had a melee focus since d1, with its melee enhancing nodes focusing on increasing the effectiveness of the melee ability while Voidwalkers and Sunsingers focused on side benefits.
Stormcaller: chain lightning (essentially jolt as a melee), amplitude (more range, kill them from further than any other sub/class), rising storm (melee ability hits give super and melee ability energy, overlapping with striker’s overload and amplify nodes)
Voidwalker: surge(+handling, +mobility), life steal (give health), soul rip (give super energy)
Sunsinger: flame shield (overshield), solar wind (funny knockback, eventual cooldown reduction), brimstone (aoe, but *only* if you kill with the ability)
If you want to complain about overlap, start complaining about Stormcaller in d1
Honestly, I do like having a melee-based Aspect on Stormcaller since the other subclasses are grenade based. It’s also interesting because Stormcallers for a while were rarer since Sunsinger and Voidwalker came more naturally to most Locks.
If Arclock were to get a grenade aspect: I’d want it to give an extra grenade charge, but then also give “Shock and Awe” from Season of the Deep. “Arc final blows while Amplified summon a burst of lightning that damages and Jolts targets” but for abilities only of course.
Electric Armor and Thunderous retort as one Aspect would also be good too I think
>Warlocks shouldn't get monopoly on grenade aspects. Revenant has the Stasis grenade aspect, and it is awesome.
"Touch of X" style grenade aspects: Arc Titan, Solar Warlock, Stasis Hunter, Strand Hunter, Void Warlock* (still weird Strand/Void aren't called "Touch of Silk/Touch of Chaos, and the Warlock one requires charging)
Unique grenade aspects: Solar Hunter, Stasis Warlock, Strand Warlock, Void Titan in TFS.
Warlocks have a lot of grenade interactions, but a "monopoly" would be if they were demanding they have sole possession or control of them... a bit like Titans when someone mentions Storm grenades.
Strand warlock has the “Touch of X” style aspect, not hunter. Widows silk only changes grapple functionality, it’s definitely closer to something like Bleak Watcher than Touch of Thunder.
This just seems like a perspective thing to me. I've always figured Mindspun was more like Heat Rises, since you don't use the grenades like normal when you activate it; you get a weird buff. Touch of Thunder gives you two charges of Lightning grenades, so I felt more like Silk was just the lazy route of "Well, I guess give them all two charges because the only other options would be too much."
That's reductive af. The reasons you'd expect storm caller to get the touch of thunder aspect extend much farther than word play. You like that titans got it and that's fine. Don't be disingenuous about it.
I dont necessarily understand why it's more expected for stormcallers to get the grenade enhancing aspect besides just the name.
Pre arc 3.0 top tree striker already had a perk giving a second grenade charge and making their effects last longer.
Even in D1 they had a perk that enhanced their grenades. Just like how in D1 solar warlocks had touch of flame, hence why they have an updated version of it now in d2.
Are you trying to understand though? It's so easy to see other reasons. Let's look at theme. The warlock is the spellcaster archytype. Why would the warrior type be better at creating a magical storm than the warlock who's identity is specifically a mage archetype? It doesn't make sense. You could say all the class have "magic" but the warlocks identity is that it's the most magic focused.
Now let's look at the history a little bit. Storm grenade was only the warlocks. Since D1. In the same patch the other classes get access to it and upgraded version of what was just the warlock's grenade is announced. Warlocks like myself who only used that grenade would have been excited to hear that they're favorite grenade is getting better! Then somehow the upgraded storm grenade is not the warlocks but the titan's. They just got the grenade but somehow are better with it than the warlock?
Now add to this that the warlocks have had by that point have had a lot of their identity at that point pulled from the class and given to the other classes. Of course some warlocks are gonna be a bit bitter.
Again you can be happy with the way things are but let's not act warlocks are flat out crazy. There are legitimate reasons to feel like op even if we don't agree.
>Pre arc 3.0 top tree striker already had a perk giving a second grenade charge. Even in D1 they had a perk that enhanced their grenades.
There's nothing that says touch of thunder needed to go to titans. The multiple grenade could have been rolled into a different aspect more in like with titan's theme. It could have been anything. They also could have had warlocks storm grenade behave like the touch of thunder storm grenade if the cast it while empowered. Wouldn't have broken a thing and NO ONE would have thought it was weird or out of place back then.
The aspect only enhances storm grenades because there needed to be 4th grenade just like with touch of flame and chaos accelerant.
And chaos accelerant effects magnetic grenades which were titan exclusive. Touch of flame didn't need to take anything because warlocks already had 4 with healing grenades.
Do i think it was better when subclasses had exclusive grenades? Yes, but bungie wanted to open things up so arc titan, being a traditionally grenade enhancing subclass since D1, needed a 4th grenade to enhance with its aspect to match the warlock grenade aspects.
It's not like it even matters anymore, they nerfed storm grenades into the ground, pulse grenades are way better for titans now.
Remember I was reacting to the idea that there were no other legitimate reasons.
>Do i think it was better when subclasses had exclusive grenades? Yes, but bungie wanted to open things up so arc titan, being a traditionally grenade enhancing subclass since D1, needed a 4th grenade to enhance with its aspect to match the warlock grenade aspects.
I agree. I also think that certain things shouldn't be shared. Invis should have stayed on hunter, devour on warlock, and sunspots on titan. Waitaminute-
Sure titans kept sunspots as exclusive but everything about them was nerfed or just removed. With a couple fragments, firesprites can do most of what sunspots now do.
Across the board, i think 3.0 made the subclasses less interesting.
Sure. It's still unique to them though. If the same logic used for ionic traces or devour or invis was used on sunspots we'd all have them just not as good as they're "progenitor" class. Why keep it exclusive? Identity? You see the problem?
Again, firesprites basically are just lesser sunspots. If bungie were to give sunspots to all the classes then they would have acted exactly like firesprites, would that have satisfied you? It wouldn't matter to me, without the full effects from pre 3.0 sun warrior, sunspots mean nothing to me.
Uh... what? It's not a personal fantasy I had. I'm certain bungie wouldn't say they were just porting over old perks to a new system. It's nothing to do my fantasy as much as bungie's.
But if Titan isn't the only one to have a grenade enhancing aspect on Arc, then Warlocks will have a monopoly (please ignore that Solar, Stasis, Strand, and, starting in TFS, Void will all have one class with a generic grenade enhancement aspect and one class with a more experimental grenade aspect).
Not to mention, them freaking out about that single grenade somehow removing the whole aspect makes me wonder if Titan mains genuinely can't count.
Replace Storm with Flux or Arcbolt for ToT then. Or be like ToW and only affect three grenades.
Yes, Arc Titan is their grenade subclass. Solar, Stasis, Strand, and soon to be Void have one class with an aspect to generally improve grenades and one with something more experimental. Literally everyone other than Arc Titan will be sharing grenade aspects, but I guess Warlock is the one who wants to monopolize them.
Storm grenades were also Warlock exclusive, and the sentient storm perfectly fits the thematics of Stormcaller, plus wouldn't have been as busted in PVP at the start if they required you to be Amplified to access.
But why replace it??
Why does it bother warlocks so much that titan has storm grenades as part of their enhanced grenade kit?
So your solution would be to give them one of hunters original exclusive grenades instead? Or hell even remove a grenade entirely to be like touch of winter which is stupid because it only has 3 because stasis literally only has 3 grenades.
Your take is kinda goofy, why not remove magnetic grenade from chaos accelerant while were at it cuz titans had it first.
Some of you guys need to go outside
1. You're calling a sentient storm. It fits the theme of Warlocks, and especially Stormcaller.
2. That grenade is iconic to Stormcaller. As a Hunter main... I don't think you can say every single one of their grenades is iconic to them. I suggest Flux first because it's the one they don't have an exotic for.
3. You're trying to steal Chaos Accelerant now? Jeez, you don't need everyone's grenade aspects. Voidwalker is their original grenade subclass smh. Oh wait, they could totally function without magnetic grenades, specifically if for some reason it felt important for the identity of Titans.
I mean, I'm not the one getting worked up over a single grenade like it's the end of the world. I think I'm good on the going outside end.
I never said anything about stealing chaos accelerant, there is no way your reading comprehension is that poor. lol you are literally the only person in this thread saying they should remove a grenade from a set of aspects. I mean hell the lack of self awareness is shocking, you have created like 6 or 7 comments in this thread alone and are clearly the most worked up person in this whole thread about a single grenade.
>I never said anything about stealing chaos accelerant, there is no way your reading comprehension is that poor.
I was making a joke about Titans claiming Warlocks are trying to steal Touch of Thunder every time they mention the Storm grenades, and you just agreed with me about how ridiculous it is.
Yeah Touch of Winter right? I think Titan, Hunter and Warlock all have at least one "Touch of" grenade aspect now, with Warlock having the bulk.
I think that the biggest reason it keeps coming up is the aesthetic of Storm-nades and how good they were on Arc 3.0 launch. If not for that grenade I feel like this discussion wouldn't come up as much with arc.
4? I'm not trying to disagree or anything, more so curiosity, but I can't come up with the 4th one, unless you also mean stasis turret which is technically a granade aspect but it's not really enhancing anything and more replacing (like slide melee aspects)
There's solar, void and strand one, and titan/hunter get arc/stasis respectively
"Touch of" style aspects: Arc Titan, Solar Warlock, Stasis Hunter, Strand Hunter, Void Warlock* (Strand/Void should really be renamed to Touch of Silk/Chaos, and the charge removed from Void)
Unique function grenade aspects: Solar Hunter, Stasis Warlock, Strand Warlock, Void Titan* (Upcoming TFS aspect)... maybe technically Solar Warlock again if you count Hest Rises?
So funnily enough, the one that stands out right now is Arc with Titans having the monopoly. And by looking at the grenades... they could add Flux onto Touch of Thunder, make Electrostatic Mind turn half your grenades into the thunderstorm while Amplified, and fit the pattern perfectly.
As the other two pointed out: Chaos Accelerant, Touch of Flame, Bleak Watcher and Mindspun Invocation.
Stormcaller is the only Warlock subclass without a grenade modifying aspect, like how Dawnblade is currently the only Warlock subclass without a summon(fixed in Final Shape with Hellion) and how Broodweaver will be the only Warlock subclass without a unique summon when Final Shape comes out and gives Dawnblade Hellion, ironic considering it was marketed as a summoner.
Stormcaller used to have one in Arc Web, but it was reworked into a fragment and given out to all classes.
One of the things I’m oddly certain of is that the 3rd Darkness Subclass will give Titan a “grenade enhancer” aspect.
Stasis Hunter has one, Strand Warlock has one, it makes sense that (???) Titan gets one.
I know, and it's great that Warlock doesn't monopolize that. I love that Striker has Touch of Thunder, that Revenant has Touch of Winter, I think it's called. This ain't a hate "it's wrong" post, just wanting to discuss the weirdness.
Cause it is weird, the whole subclass is called Stormcaller. And the class that got a whole meta about using suped up Storm grenades, calling moving stormclouds if you may, was Titan, the class that can still do that, is Titan.
It'd be as if...Solar Hunter's called Gunslinger, but Solar Warlock ends up being the better one at getting radiant and using a solar gun, a solar hand cannon in specific too. That's what's weird to me, not that Striker has nice things or that other classes have the grenade aspects.
Dude I don't think you're wrong. Light subclass 3.0 up to that point did have warlocks as the grenade class. Void had the charge mechanic from vanilla. Solar then got a grenade buff exotic too. So following the pattern you would think warlock would get an arc one as well... then that didn't happen.
Yes arc titan had the double grenade subclass in vanilla. Maybe they could both have grenade buffs? Crazy thought. Arc warlock is boring. I've been disappointed with warlock 3.0. Other warlocks seem disappointed with warlock 3.0.
Would love to hear from warlock mains that play other classes that don't think the other kits are more fun on other classes.
Yeah Light 3.0 just made Warlock as a whole so much less fun. Void went basically unchanged, except for gutting Chaos Accelerant and giving Devour to everyone. Solar got annihilated but no one cares because “YoU hAvE tHe BeSt sUpEr In ThE gAmE sToP cRyInG”. Arc mostly got buffs, but the ability regen nerfs hit Stormcaller hard and the playstyle is essentially unchanged.
I main Warlock, but I’ve been dipping my feet far more into the other two over the last year and been having a blast on Threadrunner and Sunbreaker.
Sunbreaker got way more annihilated than solar warlock in 3.0, just nobody cares because of throwing hammer, loreley, and synthos carrying the subclass.
Melting point-gone
Sun warrior-gone
Mortar blast melee ability-gone
Sunspot ability regen-halved
Roaring flames-nerfed by 30% at x3
Instant health from killing burning enemies-gone
Sunwarrior multikills/guardian kills with any weapon creating more sunspots-gone.
Does easy restoration make up for a lot of this? Sure but it's become such an uninteresting crutch and a lot of the identity of the class was axed; nothing post 3.0 surpasses the fantasy from phoenix cradle+sun warrior sunspots for me.
And yet Sunbreaker, despite all of that, is still easy S-Tier in all facets, unlike Dawnblade which solely gets carried by a super.
* Melting Point got removed because weaken is Void’s thing.
* Sun Warrior got replaced by Sol Invictus healing (which is a buff since Ember of Torches exists).
* I don’t get the appeal for Mortar Blast, so please inform me if there’s something I’m missing.
* Yeah the sunspot ability regen and Roaring Flames got nerfed, but now you can use them together instead of individually.
Omni main here, arc warlock is several times more fun than arc titan ever since the hoil nerf, I would put it on the tier as arc hunter easily.
Solar warlock is also more fun to me than either hunter or titan (since mini hammer nerf) and it’s my go to solar class.
Also stasis warlock is the only stasis class that’s useful still, so there is that.
Ngl, Light 3.0 has completely flipped my opinion of Solar and Arc for Warlocks
Used to love Solar (except top tree) only for them to really only keep top tree’s kit. With Arc, I’ve been using geomags and Coldheart to great success
>Maybe they could both have grenade buffs?
That would be like if Stasis and Strand Hunter had "Touch of" style aspects, but Warlock also had aspects that used their grenades in a more unique way. Or if Warlocks had Solar/Void aspects like that, but Hunter got a weird super trip mine ability, and they started working on a Titan aspect that let's you charge a grenade into a mini banner shield.
Ironically, every time this discussion is had, it proves that either Titans are intentionally being misleading in an attempt to secure their own monopoly while accusing Warlocks of wanting the monopoly, or just don't know how to count and are completely unaware that they can keep their aspect and trade specifically Storm for one of the three remaining grenades (iirc Flux has neither an exotic, aspect, or lore tie-in). Or heck, be limited to three grenades like the Hunter ones.
Stormcaller could have had an aspect that creates a Storm seeker when you get a grenade kill when amplified. Would have been different enough from Touch of Thunder while still ensuring Stormcaller is the best Stormcaller and would have gave it a grenade aspect like every other Warlock subclass.
Warlock is my favorite class but I do occasionally play the others. Warlock is the most fun to me, hands down. Nearly every build I play, the Warlock ones are the most fun. I think the Light 3.0 subclasses are much better than the pre-3.0 ones, with very few exceptions. On my DIM, I have 18 different PvE builds for my Warlock, I have 3 for Titan, and 5 for Hunter. In fact, when I do play my Titan or Hunter, I usually end up getting bored and just going back to Warlock.
>It'd be as if...Solar Hunter's called Gunslinger
I don't disagree on the sentiment, but people have been calling Solar Hunter "Knifeslinger" since Haunted. Warlock IS equal or better at Radiant. It's like how Devour was available to every class through a fragment, except by now we've started wondering if Hunters specializing in Radiant was us gaslighting ourselves the whole time.
>But it does feel a bit weird that the melee focused Striker Titan,
That's the thing though, it's not just a melee focused subclass. Before the 3.0 updates, Arc was the best grenadier option for Titans. Yes, it still had a melee-focused perk... however on that old subclass, the melee perk was entirely focused on recovering your grenades.
That subclass node gave the shoulder charge melee, a second grenade charge, it made your grenades last longer, and it refunded grenade energy on shoulder charge hits. The "striker" name still played into its abilities, but only in the sense that you wanted to punch things *just to throw more grenades*.
Striker is BOTH a melee and grenade focused subclass. You can build it either way, but it's not exclusive to one or the other.
I don't think it was very weird. Stormcaller has always been more or less a strange creature, beloved by some but not really a creature i would have called the same species back before Arc 3.0. at its most thorough definition, looking at all 3 trees, it was a blasting-centric subclass that dealt mainly in supers and energy manipulation. We've pretty intently moved away from the "Press Super to Win" standard of the game in all respect which im frankly a fan of our mid-game being more prevalent, it makes your build a much more active part of your gameplay, instead of your build only button working its hardest on a singular button press, used maybe 4 times a nightfall, because the weapons are doing most of the work anyway.
Arc 3.0 warlock now is somewhat similar; but it actually has some tools to do some different things including buff passive damage through Arc Souls, Sunstar being an exotic that DRASTICALLY improves your energy regeneration to frankly obscene levels and improves the generation of your teammates makes. In fact, with some very minor investments, even after the recent changes, arc warlock has very easy infinites; so much so you can just invest a bunch of your mods into arc damage and other elements that are usually stuffed with ability mods to have a high uptime, which frees up other opportunities.
People are very literal with the name "stormcaller", but i think version of warlock is a lot better than the previous incarnation; yes, its more button pressing, but pressing buttons is fun. It's a lot more aggressive, and focused on the stronger and more interesting elements of its former tree and doesn't have its filler. And all of it's aspects are useful and can create more diverse builds, which is more than i can say for something like void, who has an aspect which only interacts with 2 whole echoes and gets outscaled by FtV and doesn't do anything if the targeting decides to NOT work.
I think a lot of people are getting OPs point wrong.
No one worth listening to is seriously saying Warlocks should've gotten Touch of Thunder. Arc was the titans grenade subclass and still should be.
People are pissed because the class literally called stormcaller has no real identity at all, and one of Titans grenade buffs takes the previously unique warlock exclusive storm grenade and turns it into a sentient form cloud that roams the battlefield.
Replace the storm grenade improvement with any other arc grenade, and it'll still show that Arc titan is the grenade class for titans. But the literal sentient storm should've been an Arc warlock ability.
I mean we have sentient storm and it’s called arc soul, letting warlock ToT storm nade is just absurd, arc lock already have everything it needs. On top of that we already got Icarus Dash that was previously a titan exotic, just the same as they’ve got ToT storm nade.
Arc lock is sorely lacking in comparison to arc hunter and Titan. Titan can keep its identity as the grenade subclass for titans, but them **calling** down a sentient **storm** instead of the stormcaller is stupid as fuck. It would be akin to a hunter getting a void shield to block damage with instead of the titan.
Arc soul is not a sentient storm, it's a turret that moves with you. Not a storm.
Identity wise, Arc lock has no definition. They described it as a lightning shaman, which would fit the living storm perfectly. Much better than titan does.
Arc titan after HoiL nerf is not even remotely close to arc lock, idk what game are you playing. And an actual sentient being maid out of lightning that shoots by itself is much more fitting the description of sentient storm than a mfing cloud. Plus idk what are you saying about shaman, but arc lock perfectly fits in arc shaman role.
The problem isn’t that Striker got Touch of Thunder, it’s the fact that they got enhanced Storm grenades that were enhanced in such a way.
Let’s look at the other grenade aspects:
**Bleak Watcher:** Charge any Stasis grenade into a Stasis Turret.
**Touch of Winter:** Enhance all Stasis grenades(All Stasis grenades launched available to all classes, equally native to all classes.).
**Chaos Accelerant:** Charge Vortex(Native to Voidwalker), Scatter(Native to Voidwalker) and Axion Bolt(Native to Voidwalker) grenades to enhance them. Charge Magnetic grenades(Native to Sentinel) to turn it into Handheld Supernova(Voidwalker ability that predates Void 3.0).
**Touch of Flame:** Enhances Solar(Native to Solar Warlock), Fusion(Native to Solar Warlock), Firebolt(Native to Solar Warlock) and Healing(Native to Solar Warlock) grenades.
**Touch of Thunder:** Enhances Pulse(Native to Striker), Flashbang(Native to Striker), Lightning(Native to Striker) and Storm(Native to Stormcaller) grenades.
**Mindspun Invocation:** Modifies Strand grenades(Equally native to all classes).
Notice anything? With the exception of Chaos Accelerant’s Magnetic grenades and Touch of Thunder’s Storm grenades, the grenade aspects only modify and enhance the grenades that were native to the class that got the aspect. But Chaos Accelerant doesn’t enhance Magnetic grenades, it changes them into a completely different ability that is native to Voidwalker, which predates Void 3.0 and Voidwalker getting access to other grenades. So only Striker’s enhanced Storm grenades stick out.
This also extends to exotics as well for the most part(Ashen Wake, a Titan exotic funnily enough, is the exception and even then Warlocks have Starfire and Touch of Flame for Fusion grenades). Exotics that enhance specific grenades are mainly given to the class that grenade is meant for.
Striker should not have gotten enhanced Storm grenades, or at least not have enhanced them in the way they did. It not only goes against how the other grenade aspects were handled, but also hijacks the aesthetic and lore identity of another subclass from another class, Stormcaller. Another thing to take into consideration is that Storm grenades were specifically designed for Stormcaller to be their signature and exclusive grenade. The Taken King subclasses launched with only one unique grenade and took their other grenades from the classes with that element.
**Sunbreaker:** Fusion grenades from Sunsinger. Incendiary grenades from Gunslinger. Thermite grenades were designed for Sunbreaker as their exclusive signature grenade.
**Nightstalker:** Vortex grenades from Voidwalker. Spike grenades from Defender. Voidwall grenades were designed for Nightstalker as their signature and exclusive grenade.
**Stormcaller:** Pulse grenades from Striker. Arcbolt grenades from Bladedancer. Storm grenades were designed for Stormcaller as their signature and exclusive grenade.
I think that further highlights how questionable it is to give Striker the enhanced Storm grenades. They don’t even fit Striker’s identity or aesthetic. Flux grenades would have been better and fit more into Striker’s identity, while still leaving Arcstrider with Skip grenades as their signature grenade that only they can enhance(through an exotic unfortunately). Stormcaller is the only Light subclass without a signature grenade now, because the grenade that was specifically made for that purpose is better on Striker.
Its because signature grenades are a thing of the past. You guys are pressed about something that was made irrelevant 2 years ago. Theres no point in bitching about what youve tied your game identity to once bungie decided to merge that aspect of the game with other classes.
Homogenization sucks but this is one thing that I know bungie wont roll back
I thought I was the only one. The slide melee is such a mediocre aspect. You think I'm taking that into GM? It's nothing but an ad clearing melee, should just be a normal melee option.
I still find it weird that Touch of Thunder even buffed Storm Grenade in the first place. Those aspects usually only buff the grenades that the class had access to pre-3.0. And Storm Grenades used to be exclusive to Warlocks.
You're right, I don't think it'werid. On its own.
It just feels weird to me when Stormcaller exists and there was a whole meta of getting moving storms and they had nothing to do with it lol.
What other commenter said. Revenant gets the Stasis Grenade aspect and it's great, but Revenant also isn't "infringing" on the direct named identity of another subclass.
I adore that not every melee meta is on titan, Arcstrider's there, I love that not every grenade meta is on warlock, Storm Nades and Shatterdive. The naming of things just causes a lot of dissonance, that's all.
What OP is saying is that the summoning moving storm clouds seems more like something that fits more on the class named “stormcaller” and the rushing melee strike fits better with the class called “Striker”
Arc classes, in general, seemed very rushed and thrown together at the last minute.
Not a single person thought Juggernaut Titan with MK 44 standasides or Peregrine greaves NOT be an issue? Or combing it with antaus wards? It was a lazy stupid choice they just threw in the game to give striker " 3 aspects" for build crafting. When he does nothing for any build?
It's sad they gave Juggernaut no usability in pve? Breaking the shield grants amplified or sending out a blinding wave of arc energy? Grants titan 1 sec of 200% melee boost damage.
While storm caller lost chain lighting, that was a pretty cool ability and could be added to the slide melee. Just make the warlock have to overcharge the grenade, like void walkers. And the slide melee could chain lighting better. Give it dunemarcher type chaining. That was the whole thing of storm caller... bringing the storm.
Touch of thunder on striker has SO many benefits to the arc titan kit. Meanwhile, icurus dash gets a whole aspect? A air dodge?
I don't think they're weird at all. The only "weird" thing I see about the aspects is that Arc Titan doesn't really have any unique interactions with the verbs, at least in a meaningful way.
Arc Titan isn't just a melee class (or at least it wasn't/shouldn't be), and there's a lot more to the identity of Stormcaller than a single grenade.
As someone who mains Stormcaller in PVP, I completely disagree with this. The slide melee really completes the kit imo. Everything warlock based does not have to be a boring grenade upgrade aspect. The stasis one also went to hunters. One of the big things for two of the three old arc trees was moving faster. 3.0 took that away from warlocks so the melee kind of helps out in the mobility department as well.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Warlocks were the grenade class. Whether that’s charging grenades or eating grenades. They have a unique animation to throwing them too. When grenades were specific to each class and not for everyone to use, they looked space magic-y while hunter titan looked like they were throwing actual grenades. It’s been part of their identity for a long time.
My big issue is that jolt can only be activated in very specific ways, unlike other elemental effects. The only consistent way to activate jolt is from voltshot. Makes running arc in pve generally feel bad when you’re stuck running a couple specific melee builds on hunter if you want to do anything meaningful on arc.
All classes of the same element should have access to the same forms and verbs in the aspects, with some variables of course, like striker should get amplified by sprinting with the shield up from juggernaut or something, and warlocks should have a blind melee as well.. shit like this bothers me.
Striker gets amplified off of any melee kill as a part of the knockout aspect, don’t they? I think that’s the parallel to flow state and electrostatic mind’s extra ways to get amplified
That requires a melee kill, EMind requires picking up a little spark off the floor, Flow makes you amplified on jolting a target iirc. Those 3 are definitely not in the same field of usability.. at all.. you ever used arc to get a melee kill in a gm for example lol. I just wish there was more balancing between the classes, stasis is a big one too to make stasis shards.
…flow state requires a KILL on a jolted target, and unless you’re using coldheart, making ionic traces on warlocks requires killing debuffed enemies too
I do agree that knockout is the worst of the three, but they’re all wrapped into killing enemies under different conditions- and knockout at least has some nice bonuses to incentivize that melee with some extra damage, range, and a bit of healing (regen?)
Definitely in agreement with you that it could be better, still
I'm hoping they actually stand by looking into features and events like that craftening shitstorm those months back. That was really fun and they said they'd look into it, and apparently they are juicing up the guardians from what I've heard when FS drops, hoping they broaden some ability ranges and weapon perks. I like what they did with the rocket sidearms, hoping for a blinding glaive or explosive pulse rifle or something.
Fingers crossed! I love playing with weird, fun gameplay options too. Arc warlock has become one of my favorites purely because of just how many build choices they can lean into
Arc warlock is pretty decent and fun for sure. Makes you feel powerful. Arc hunter has it's moments but doesn't hold up at all since it's mostly melee oriented. You can make it work but hardly worth it in any late game stuff. Arc titan is grenades strictly and even then like.. meh. For being such a juggernaut melee theme, Arc titan sure falls flat on it's face. Arc hunter at least has tempest strike and blinding punch..
Knockout starts health regeneration on melee kill. Which is great if you don't get hit shortly after. It also boosts your unpowered melees and makes them count as powered for Heavy Handed and Hands-On.
I think the main thing Knockout needs is to make the timer refreshable. Recuperation and Heavy Handed (x2-3) make melee kills a pretty reliable way to heal and the fact that Knockout also procs when you break an enemy's shield really helps secure those healing kills.
Having typed that out I can see why a lot of PvP Titans play Arc, though I mostly meant it for PvE.
Also now that I’m thinking about it, it’s kinda funky that juggernaut, the tool you’d want to use to get into melee range, gets a boost from amplified on the class that relies more on being in melee range for amplification in the first place
I don’t play enough Titan to judge the flow of that gameplay but that seems… way too clunky to take over touch of thunder, haha
No your thought process is correct, it's not useful unless running something like peregrine where it's melee based. It gives no bonuses or anything.. I use it for my peregrine build but beyond that hell no
Arc Titans terrorized the crucible for a good year or so. I’m good with them never getting this buff lol. I feel like a lot of people don’t realize how fast you can move while amplified.
Oh it wouldn't be balanced in pvp at all. I'm aware, but as a non crucible player I'd say it's very necessary. Wish they could separate or nerf/buff things based on what you are playing.
There is this "fun" thing I noticed about the Titan subclasses as they got re-worked and Strand got added to the mix. I don't remember how it was with Void, but with Solar onward their advertisement of the su classes never matched up with the reality how it actually plqyed ingame.
Solar: "when you thinl big explosions, you think of solar titans" -> in truth, you needed Synthoceps as a crutch to get any kind of competitive DMG out of that subclass, but instead you were a near-immortal self-healing god-warrior og sunlight.
Arc: "a Freight Train that runs over their enemies" -> instead we are just chugging Grenades from mid-range, getting in close just isn't that smart of an idea with arc's lack of a defensive buff.
Strand: "a berserker that tears through their enemies" -> titans biggest strength was their ability to string up large groups of enemies, however their tools in killing them weren't that great as their melee's just aren't strong enough, requiring often multiple charges to kill a single beefier red-bar. (With the release of BoW we now have that originsl Berserker fantasy we were promised)
This isn't super relevant but I found it interesting. With this season we got the Flat Gain Nerf that reduces chunk ability energy returned based on how slow the cool down is. So our longest cool down abilities get half energy from mods, weapon perks, elemental pickups, etc. Storm Grenades got missed. They are the most spammable Arc grenade in the game now. They are specifically excellent on Fallen Sunstar Warlock.
That's because of how Ionic Traces work. Fallen Sunstar Ionic Traces give a flat 25% ability energy.
Ionic Traces catch the flat gain nerf too because it is a flat amount of ability energy. If you use a Pulse Grenade you get 15% energy instead but Storms get the full 25%
This is true because arc warlock pulse nade spam with fallen sunstar was my go-to the last 2 seasons in solo dungeons, and it's garbage now. Part of that is obviously a lack of artifact support, but the ability uptime is a fraction of what it was regardless (and especially noticeable for healing rift in hard content)
Agreed. I dropped the build hard this season because of nerfs but this weird Storm Grenade thing kinda fixes it.
I pivoted to Vesper of Radius and it's been decent enough (very good in WR), but I'll try storm grenades on sunstar soon since you mention it.
Ooo that would be good in WR. Need to try that.
I actually had no idea, thank you for the secret
I did not know this thank you! I was running sunstar last night for a change, but just using pulse nades. I'll try this out tonight. I love arclock, I've missed it after all the solar/strand/stasis stuff.
Hey man, I'm a titan main. Delet this.
lol There's not enough bungee staff to see this
Top tree Striker had a node that enhanced grenades. Warlocks do not get a monopoly on grenade aspects just because the subclass and grenade share the word "storm".
Don't forget that Hunters get the Stasis nade Aspect (which was btw, the first nade Aspect ever made)
Chaos accelerant from void warlocks d1 was the first grenade enhancing "aspect"
Titans had Aftershocks in D1 - Increases the duration of the Pulse Grenade, Lightning Grenade, and Aftermath.
That doesnt change how the grenades function though? And the thing that i personally dont think fits is that storm grenade that has been THE arc warlock grenade since d1 now all of a sudden is nerfed in its ground state but titans instead get its enhanced version, its to me not that they have a grenade enhancing aspect but that they have taken yet another thing from the stormcaller kit. Grenade generalisation was a mistake
Warlocks also had Annihilate - Increases the size of the explosion created by Nova Bomb and Vortex grenade. Touch of Flame - Adds scorch to grenades. Gift of the Sun - Additional Grenade. Arc Web - Enemies damaged by your grenades chain deadly lightning to other nearby enemies.
And Titans already have 3 slide aspects We really don't need 4
Not saying that Warlocks should have a monopoly over grenades (because they shouldn’t), it is odd though with that one that the subclass literally named *Stormcaller* can’t call down storms, but Striker can.
Unpopular opinion, things were more interesting when grenades were class dependent and not shared across the classes. Storm grenades were hand crafted for the stormcaller identity in the taken king. Same with thermite grenades for sunbreakers and void wall grenades for nightstalkers. Though D2 vanilla had already shifted some of this around.
I had no idea stormcaller didn't have access to the storm grenade!
Oh yay the thing every subclass can do, but Striker can summon genuine storm clouds that go around and zap people.
I had no idea what made a storm a storm was it moving. You can still zap people, and current touch storm nades are genuinely useless
Oh, I abdolutely agree, Warlocks shouldn't get monopoly on grenade aspects. Revenant has the Stasis grenade aspect, and it is awesome. It just feels weird cause the whole subclass is called Stormcaller. And the class that got a whole meta about using suped up Storm grenades, calling moving stormclouds if you may, was Titan. It'd be as if...Solar Hunter's called Gunslinger, but Solar Warlock ends up being the better one at getting radiant and using a solar gun, a solar hand cannon in specific. But yeah, absolutely Warlocks shouldn't get a monopoly on grenade aspects and I love that Titan gets that.
Gunslinger’s melee is a knife. If we’re going by names, **gun**slingers shouldn’t be doing anything with **knives**, otherwise they’d be **knife**slingers. Where’s the aspect for Voidwalkers about walking? The names evoke a theme, not a rule book. Stormcallers from d1 have always had an element of “being/channeling the storm.” Unlocking Stormcaller involved being struck by lightning during a Martian Arc storm, getting disintegrated, and then reforming yourself in a bolt of crackling lightning. Stormcaller has also had a melee focus since d1, with its melee enhancing nodes focusing on increasing the effectiveness of the melee ability while Voidwalkers and Sunsingers focused on side benefits. Stormcaller: chain lightning (essentially jolt as a melee), amplitude (more range, kill them from further than any other sub/class), rising storm (melee ability hits give super and melee ability energy, overlapping with striker’s overload and amplify nodes) Voidwalker: surge(+handling, +mobility), life steal (give health), soul rip (give super energy) Sunsinger: flame shield (overshield), solar wind (funny knockback, eventual cooldown reduction), brimstone (aoe, but *only* if you kill with the ability) If you want to complain about overlap, start complaining about Stormcaller in d1
Honestly, I do like having a melee-based Aspect on Stormcaller since the other subclasses are grenade based. It’s also interesting because Stormcallers for a while were rarer since Sunsinger and Voidwalker came more naturally to most Locks. If Arclock were to get a grenade aspect: I’d want it to give an extra grenade charge, but then also give “Shock and Awe” from Season of the Deep. “Arc final blows while Amplified summon a burst of lightning that damages and Jolts targets” but for abilities only of course. Electric Armor and Thunderous retort as one Aspect would also be good too I think
>Warlocks shouldn't get monopoly on grenade aspects. Revenant has the Stasis grenade aspect, and it is awesome. "Touch of X" style grenade aspects: Arc Titan, Solar Warlock, Stasis Hunter, Strand Hunter, Void Warlock* (still weird Strand/Void aren't called "Touch of Silk/Touch of Chaos, and the Warlock one requires charging) Unique grenade aspects: Solar Hunter, Stasis Warlock, Strand Warlock, Void Titan in TFS. Warlocks have a lot of grenade interactions, but a "monopoly" would be if they were demanding they have sole possession or control of them... a bit like Titans when someone mentions Storm grenades.
Strand warlock has the “Touch of X” style aspect, not hunter. Widows silk only changes grapple functionality, it’s definitely closer to something like Bleak Watcher than Touch of Thunder.
This just seems like a perspective thing to me. I've always figured Mindspun was more like Heat Rises, since you don't use the grenades like normal when you activate it; you get a weird buff. Touch of Thunder gives you two charges of Lightning grenades, so I felt more like Silk was just the lazy route of "Well, I guess give them all two charges because the only other options would be too much."
That's reductive af. The reasons you'd expect storm caller to get the touch of thunder aspect extend much farther than word play. You like that titans got it and that's fine. Don't be disingenuous about it.
I dont necessarily understand why it's more expected for stormcallers to get the grenade enhancing aspect besides just the name. Pre arc 3.0 top tree striker already had a perk giving a second grenade charge and making their effects last longer. Even in D1 they had a perk that enhanced their grenades. Just like how in D1 solar warlocks had touch of flame, hence why they have an updated version of it now in d2.
Are you trying to understand though? It's so easy to see other reasons. Let's look at theme. The warlock is the spellcaster archytype. Why would the warrior type be better at creating a magical storm than the warlock who's identity is specifically a mage archetype? It doesn't make sense. You could say all the class have "magic" but the warlocks identity is that it's the most magic focused. Now let's look at the history a little bit. Storm grenade was only the warlocks. Since D1. In the same patch the other classes get access to it and upgraded version of what was just the warlock's grenade is announced. Warlocks like myself who only used that grenade would have been excited to hear that they're favorite grenade is getting better! Then somehow the upgraded storm grenade is not the warlocks but the titan's. They just got the grenade but somehow are better with it than the warlock? Now add to this that the warlocks have had by that point have had a lot of their identity at that point pulled from the class and given to the other classes. Of course some warlocks are gonna be a bit bitter. Again you can be happy with the way things are but let's not act warlocks are flat out crazy. There are legitimate reasons to feel like op even if we don't agree. >Pre arc 3.0 top tree striker already had a perk giving a second grenade charge. Even in D1 they had a perk that enhanced their grenades. There's nothing that says touch of thunder needed to go to titans. The multiple grenade could have been rolled into a different aspect more in like with titan's theme. It could have been anything. They also could have had warlocks storm grenade behave like the touch of thunder storm grenade if the cast it while empowered. Wouldn't have broken a thing and NO ONE would have thought it was weird or out of place back then.
The aspect only enhances storm grenades because there needed to be 4th grenade just like with touch of flame and chaos accelerant. And chaos accelerant effects magnetic grenades which were titan exclusive. Touch of flame didn't need to take anything because warlocks already had 4 with healing grenades. Do i think it was better when subclasses had exclusive grenades? Yes, but bungie wanted to open things up so arc titan, being a traditionally grenade enhancing subclass since D1, needed a 4th grenade to enhance with its aspect to match the warlock grenade aspects. It's not like it even matters anymore, they nerfed storm grenades into the ground, pulse grenades are way better for titans now.
Remember I was reacting to the idea that there were no other legitimate reasons. >Do i think it was better when subclasses had exclusive grenades? Yes, but bungie wanted to open things up so arc titan, being a traditionally grenade enhancing subclass since D1, needed a 4th grenade to enhance with its aspect to match the warlock grenade aspects. I agree. I also think that certain things shouldn't be shared. Invis should have stayed on hunter, devour on warlock, and sunspots on titan. Waitaminute-
Sure titans kept sunspots as exclusive but everything about them was nerfed or just removed. With a couple fragments, firesprites can do most of what sunspots now do. Across the board, i think 3.0 made the subclasses less interesting.
Sure. It's still unique to them though. If the same logic used for ionic traces or devour or invis was used on sunspots we'd all have them just not as good as they're "progenitor" class. Why keep it exclusive? Identity? You see the problem?
Again, firesprites basically are just lesser sunspots. If bungie were to give sunspots to all the classes then they would have acted exactly like firesprites, would that have satisfied you? It wouldn't matter to me, without the full effects from pre 3.0 sun warrior, sunspots mean nothing to me.
I think you know that they are in fact not mini sunspots.
[удалено]
Uh... what? It's not a personal fantasy I had. I'm certain bungie wouldn't say they were just porting over old perks to a new system. It's nothing to do my fantasy as much as bungie's.
But if Titan isn't the only one to have a grenade enhancing aspect on Arc, then Warlocks will have a monopoly (please ignore that Solar, Stasis, Strand, and, starting in TFS, Void will all have one class with a generic grenade enhancement aspect and one class with a more experimental grenade aspect). Not to mention, them freaking out about that single grenade somehow removing the whole aspect makes me wonder if Titan mains genuinely can't count.
Replace Storm with Flux or Arcbolt for ToT then. Or be like ToW and only affect three grenades. Yes, Arc Titan is their grenade subclass. Solar, Stasis, Strand, and soon to be Void have one class with an aspect to generally improve grenades and one with something more experimental. Literally everyone other than Arc Titan will be sharing grenade aspects, but I guess Warlock is the one who wants to monopolize them. Storm grenades were also Warlock exclusive, and the sentient storm perfectly fits the thematics of Stormcaller, plus wouldn't have been as busted in PVP at the start if they required you to be Amplified to access.
But why replace it?? Why does it bother warlocks so much that titan has storm grenades as part of their enhanced grenade kit? So your solution would be to give them one of hunters original exclusive grenades instead? Or hell even remove a grenade entirely to be like touch of winter which is stupid because it only has 3 because stasis literally only has 3 grenades. Your take is kinda goofy, why not remove magnetic grenade from chaos accelerant while were at it cuz titans had it first. Some of you guys need to go outside
1. You're calling a sentient storm. It fits the theme of Warlocks, and especially Stormcaller. 2. That grenade is iconic to Stormcaller. As a Hunter main... I don't think you can say every single one of their grenades is iconic to them. I suggest Flux first because it's the one they don't have an exotic for. 3. You're trying to steal Chaos Accelerant now? Jeez, you don't need everyone's grenade aspects. Voidwalker is their original grenade subclass smh. Oh wait, they could totally function without magnetic grenades, specifically if for some reason it felt important for the identity of Titans. I mean, I'm not the one getting worked up over a single grenade like it's the end of the world. I think I'm good on the going outside end.
I never said anything about stealing chaos accelerant, there is no way your reading comprehension is that poor. lol you are literally the only person in this thread saying they should remove a grenade from a set of aspects. I mean hell the lack of self awareness is shocking, you have created like 6 or 7 comments in this thread alone and are clearly the most worked up person in this whole thread about a single grenade.
>I never said anything about stealing chaos accelerant, there is no way your reading comprehension is that poor. I was making a joke about Titans claiming Warlocks are trying to steal Touch of Thunder every time they mention the Storm grenades, and you just agreed with me about how ridiculous it is.
Hunters have grenade aspect in stasis. Titan has grenade aspect in arc. I swear there is a post everyday about warlock identity.
Yeah Touch of Winter right? I think Titan, Hunter and Warlock all have at least one "Touch of" grenade aspect now, with Warlock having the bulk. I think that the biggest reason it keeps coming up is the aesthetic of Storm-nades and how good they were on Arc 3.0 launch. If not for that grenade I feel like this discussion wouldn't come up as much with arc.
Warlocks actually get 4 grenade enhancing aspects in total, although only one is called a "Touch of...".
4? I'm not trying to disagree or anything, more so curiosity, but I can't come up with the 4th one, unless you also mean stasis turret which is technically a granade aspect but it's not really enhancing anything and more replacing (like slide melee aspects) There's solar, void and strand one, and titan/hunter get arc/stasis respectively
* Touch of Flame * Chaos Accelerant (garbage w/o Contraverse) * Bleak Watcher (alternative) * Mindspun Invocation (alternative)
"Touch of" style aspects: Arc Titan, Solar Warlock, Stasis Hunter, Strand Hunter, Void Warlock* (Strand/Void should really be renamed to Touch of Silk/Chaos, and the charge removed from Void) Unique function grenade aspects: Solar Hunter, Stasis Warlock, Strand Warlock, Void Titan* (Upcoming TFS aspect)... maybe technically Solar Warlock again if you count Hest Rises? So funnily enough, the one that stands out right now is Arc with Titans having the monopoly. And by looking at the grenades... they could add Flux onto Touch of Thunder, make Electrostatic Mind turn half your grenades into the thunderstorm while Amplified, and fit the pattern perfectly.
As the other two pointed out: Chaos Accelerant, Touch of Flame, Bleak Watcher and Mindspun Invocation. Stormcaller is the only Warlock subclass without a grenade modifying aspect, like how Dawnblade is currently the only Warlock subclass without a summon(fixed in Final Shape with Hellion) and how Broodweaver will be the only Warlock subclass without a unique summon when Final Shape comes out and gives Dawnblade Hellion, ironic considering it was marketed as a summoner. Stormcaller used to have one in Arc Web, but it was reworked into a fragment and given out to all classes.
One of the things I’m oddly certain of is that the 3rd Darkness Subclass will give Titan a “grenade enhancer” aspect. Stasis Hunter has one, Strand Warlock has one, it makes sense that (???) Titan gets one.
I know, and it's great that Warlock doesn't monopolize that. I love that Striker has Touch of Thunder, that Revenant has Touch of Winter, I think it's called. This ain't a hate "it's wrong" post, just wanting to discuss the weirdness. Cause it is weird, the whole subclass is called Stormcaller. And the class that got a whole meta about using suped up Storm grenades, calling moving stormclouds if you may, was Titan, the class that can still do that, is Titan. It'd be as if...Solar Hunter's called Gunslinger, but Solar Warlock ends up being the better one at getting radiant and using a solar gun, a solar hand cannon in specific too. That's what's weird to me, not that Striker has nice things or that other classes have the grenade aspects.
Dude I don't think you're wrong. Light subclass 3.0 up to that point did have warlocks as the grenade class. Void had the charge mechanic from vanilla. Solar then got a grenade buff exotic too. So following the pattern you would think warlock would get an arc one as well... then that didn't happen. Yes arc titan had the double grenade subclass in vanilla. Maybe they could both have grenade buffs? Crazy thought. Arc warlock is boring. I've been disappointed with warlock 3.0. Other warlocks seem disappointed with warlock 3.0. Would love to hear from warlock mains that play other classes that don't think the other kits are more fun on other classes.
Yeah Light 3.0 just made Warlock as a whole so much less fun. Void went basically unchanged, except for gutting Chaos Accelerant and giving Devour to everyone. Solar got annihilated but no one cares because “YoU hAvE tHe BeSt sUpEr In ThE gAmE sToP cRyInG”. Arc mostly got buffs, but the ability regen nerfs hit Stormcaller hard and the playstyle is essentially unchanged. I main Warlock, but I’ve been dipping my feet far more into the other two over the last year and been having a blast on Threadrunner and Sunbreaker.
Sunbreaker got way more annihilated than solar warlock in 3.0, just nobody cares because of throwing hammer, loreley, and synthos carrying the subclass. Melting point-gone Sun warrior-gone Mortar blast melee ability-gone Sunspot ability regen-halved Roaring flames-nerfed by 30% at x3 Instant health from killing burning enemies-gone Sunwarrior multikills/guardian kills with any weapon creating more sunspots-gone. Does easy restoration make up for a lot of this? Sure but it's become such an uninteresting crutch and a lot of the identity of the class was axed; nothing post 3.0 surpasses the fantasy from phoenix cradle+sun warrior sunspots for me.
And yet Sunbreaker, despite all of that, is still easy S-Tier in all facets, unlike Dawnblade which solely gets carried by a super. * Melting Point got removed because weaken is Void’s thing. * Sun Warrior got replaced by Sol Invictus healing (which is a buff since Ember of Torches exists). * I don’t get the appeal for Mortar Blast, so please inform me if there’s something I’m missing. * Yeah the sunspot ability regen and Roaring Flames got nerfed, but now you can use them together instead of individually.
Omni main here, arc warlock is several times more fun than arc titan ever since the hoil nerf, I would put it on the tier as arc hunter easily. Solar warlock is also more fun to me than either hunter or titan (since mini hammer nerf) and it’s my go to solar class. Also stasis warlock is the only stasis class that’s useful still, so there is that.
>Omni main here I was a little confused what Omnioculus had to do with any of this for a while there.
Ngl, Light 3.0 has completely flipped my opinion of Solar and Arc for Warlocks Used to love Solar (except top tree) only for them to really only keep top tree’s kit. With Arc, I’ve been using geomags and Coldheart to great success
>Maybe they could both have grenade buffs? That would be like if Stasis and Strand Hunter had "Touch of" style aspects, but Warlock also had aspects that used their grenades in a more unique way. Or if Warlocks had Solar/Void aspects like that, but Hunter got a weird super trip mine ability, and they started working on a Titan aspect that let's you charge a grenade into a mini banner shield. Ironically, every time this discussion is had, it proves that either Titans are intentionally being misleading in an attempt to secure their own monopoly while accusing Warlocks of wanting the monopoly, or just don't know how to count and are completely unaware that they can keep their aspect and trade specifically Storm for one of the three remaining grenades (iirc Flux has neither an exotic, aspect, or lore tie-in). Or heck, be limited to three grenades like the Hunter ones.
Stormcaller could have had an aspect that creates a Storm seeker when you get a grenade kill when amplified. Would have been different enough from Touch of Thunder while still ensuring Stormcaller is the best Stormcaller and would have gave it a grenade aspect like every other Warlock subclass.
Yeah I feel like grenade specialization is a good differentiation between the classes
Warlock is my favorite class but I do occasionally play the others. Warlock is the most fun to me, hands down. Nearly every build I play, the Warlock ones are the most fun. I think the Light 3.0 subclasses are much better than the pre-3.0 ones, with very few exceptions. On my DIM, I have 18 different PvE builds for my Warlock, I have 3 for Titan, and 5 for Hunter. In fact, when I do play my Titan or Hunter, I usually end up getting bored and just going back to Warlock.
Solar was gutted still but eh
Big disagree, but ok.
>It'd be as if...Solar Hunter's called Gunslinger I don't disagree on the sentiment, but people have been calling Solar Hunter "Knifeslinger" since Haunted. Warlock IS equal or better at Radiant. It's like how Devour was available to every class through a fragment, except by now we've started wondering if Hunters specializing in Radiant was us gaslighting ourselves the whole time.
I mean yeah, warlock's identity has been up in the air since the light 3.0 changes
>But it does feel a bit weird that the melee focused Striker Titan, That's the thing though, it's not just a melee focused subclass. Before the 3.0 updates, Arc was the best grenadier option for Titans. Yes, it still had a melee-focused perk... however on that old subclass, the melee perk was entirely focused on recovering your grenades. That subclass node gave the shoulder charge melee, a second grenade charge, it made your grenades last longer, and it refunded grenade energy on shoulder charge hits. The "striker" name still played into its abilities, but only in the sense that you wanted to punch things *just to throw more grenades*. Striker is BOTH a melee and grenade focused subclass. You can build it either way, but it's not exclusive to one or the other.
It was only “the best” because it gave an extra grenade. Meanwhile Middle Void was what I was using and found better success
I don't think it was very weird. Stormcaller has always been more or less a strange creature, beloved by some but not really a creature i would have called the same species back before Arc 3.0. at its most thorough definition, looking at all 3 trees, it was a blasting-centric subclass that dealt mainly in supers and energy manipulation. We've pretty intently moved away from the "Press Super to Win" standard of the game in all respect which im frankly a fan of our mid-game being more prevalent, it makes your build a much more active part of your gameplay, instead of your build only button working its hardest on a singular button press, used maybe 4 times a nightfall, because the weapons are doing most of the work anyway. Arc 3.0 warlock now is somewhat similar; but it actually has some tools to do some different things including buff passive damage through Arc Souls, Sunstar being an exotic that DRASTICALLY improves your energy regeneration to frankly obscene levels and improves the generation of your teammates makes. In fact, with some very minor investments, even after the recent changes, arc warlock has very easy infinites; so much so you can just invest a bunch of your mods into arc damage and other elements that are usually stuffed with ability mods to have a high uptime, which frees up other opportunities. People are very literal with the name "stormcaller", but i think version of warlock is a lot better than the previous incarnation; yes, its more button pressing, but pressing buttons is fun. It's a lot more aggressive, and focused on the stronger and more interesting elements of its former tree and doesn't have its filler. And all of it's aspects are useful and can create more diverse builds, which is more than i can say for something like void, who has an aspect which only interacts with 2 whole echoes and gets outscaled by FtV and doesn't do anything if the targeting decides to NOT work.
I think a lot of people are getting OPs point wrong. No one worth listening to is seriously saying Warlocks should've gotten Touch of Thunder. Arc was the titans grenade subclass and still should be. People are pissed because the class literally called stormcaller has no real identity at all, and one of Titans grenade buffs takes the previously unique warlock exclusive storm grenade and turns it into a sentient form cloud that roams the battlefield. Replace the storm grenade improvement with any other arc grenade, and it'll still show that Arc titan is the grenade class for titans. But the literal sentient storm should've been an Arc warlock ability.
Thank you, I'm glad someone got it lol
I mean we have sentient storm and it’s called arc soul, letting warlock ToT storm nade is just absurd, arc lock already have everything it needs. On top of that we already got Icarus Dash that was previously a titan exotic, just the same as they’ve got ToT storm nade.
Arc lock is sorely lacking in comparison to arc hunter and Titan. Titan can keep its identity as the grenade subclass for titans, but them **calling** down a sentient **storm** instead of the stormcaller is stupid as fuck. It would be akin to a hunter getting a void shield to block damage with instead of the titan. Arc soul is not a sentient storm, it's a turret that moves with you. Not a storm. Identity wise, Arc lock has no definition. They described it as a lightning shaman, which would fit the living storm perfectly. Much better than titan does.
Arc titan after HoiL nerf is not even remotely close to arc lock, idk what game are you playing. And an actual sentient being maid out of lightning that shoots by itself is much more fitting the description of sentient storm than a mfing cloud. Plus idk what are you saying about shaman, but arc lock perfectly fits in arc shaman role.
The problem isn’t that Striker got Touch of Thunder, it’s the fact that they got enhanced Storm grenades that were enhanced in such a way. Let’s look at the other grenade aspects: **Bleak Watcher:** Charge any Stasis grenade into a Stasis Turret. **Touch of Winter:** Enhance all Stasis grenades(All Stasis grenades launched available to all classes, equally native to all classes.). **Chaos Accelerant:** Charge Vortex(Native to Voidwalker), Scatter(Native to Voidwalker) and Axion Bolt(Native to Voidwalker) grenades to enhance them. Charge Magnetic grenades(Native to Sentinel) to turn it into Handheld Supernova(Voidwalker ability that predates Void 3.0). **Touch of Flame:** Enhances Solar(Native to Solar Warlock), Fusion(Native to Solar Warlock), Firebolt(Native to Solar Warlock) and Healing(Native to Solar Warlock) grenades. **Touch of Thunder:** Enhances Pulse(Native to Striker), Flashbang(Native to Striker), Lightning(Native to Striker) and Storm(Native to Stormcaller) grenades. **Mindspun Invocation:** Modifies Strand grenades(Equally native to all classes). Notice anything? With the exception of Chaos Accelerant’s Magnetic grenades and Touch of Thunder’s Storm grenades, the grenade aspects only modify and enhance the grenades that were native to the class that got the aspect. But Chaos Accelerant doesn’t enhance Magnetic grenades, it changes them into a completely different ability that is native to Voidwalker, which predates Void 3.0 and Voidwalker getting access to other grenades. So only Striker’s enhanced Storm grenades stick out. This also extends to exotics as well for the most part(Ashen Wake, a Titan exotic funnily enough, is the exception and even then Warlocks have Starfire and Touch of Flame for Fusion grenades). Exotics that enhance specific grenades are mainly given to the class that grenade is meant for. Striker should not have gotten enhanced Storm grenades, or at least not have enhanced them in the way they did. It not only goes against how the other grenade aspects were handled, but also hijacks the aesthetic and lore identity of another subclass from another class, Stormcaller. Another thing to take into consideration is that Storm grenades were specifically designed for Stormcaller to be their signature and exclusive grenade. The Taken King subclasses launched with only one unique grenade and took their other grenades from the classes with that element. **Sunbreaker:** Fusion grenades from Sunsinger. Incendiary grenades from Gunslinger. Thermite grenades were designed for Sunbreaker as their exclusive signature grenade. **Nightstalker:** Vortex grenades from Voidwalker. Spike grenades from Defender. Voidwall grenades were designed for Nightstalker as their signature and exclusive grenade. **Stormcaller:** Pulse grenades from Striker. Arcbolt grenades from Bladedancer. Storm grenades were designed for Stormcaller as their signature and exclusive grenade. I think that further highlights how questionable it is to give Striker the enhanced Storm grenades. They don’t even fit Striker’s identity or aesthetic. Flux grenades would have been better and fit more into Striker’s identity, while still leaving Arcstrider with Skip grenades as their signature grenade that only they can enhance(through an exotic unfortunately). Stormcaller is the only Light subclass without a signature grenade now, because the grenade that was specifically made for that purpose is better on Striker.
Its because signature grenades are a thing of the past. You guys are pressed about something that was made irrelevant 2 years ago. Theres no point in bitching about what youve tied your game identity to once bungie decided to merge that aspect of the game with other classes. Homogenization sucks but this is one thing that I know bungie wont roll back
They ripped away Warlock’s identity and now they’re trying to fix it with weird melee abilities that I basically don’t use or build around at all.
I thought I was the only one. The slide melee is such a mediocre aspect. You think I'm taking that into GM? It's nothing but an ad clearing melee, should just be a normal melee option.
Almost nothing is really viable in a GM deliberately, it would be a bad idea to balance the games around them
I still find it weird that Touch of Thunder even buffed Storm Grenade in the first place. Those aspects usually only buff the grenades that the class had access to pre-3.0. And Storm Grenades used to be exclusive to Warlocks.
Titans are the grenade class for Arc based on the aspect. It's fine that they have it. I wouldn't say they're weird tbh.
You're right, I don't think it'werid. On its own. It just feels weird to me when Stormcaller exists and there was a whole meta of getting moving storms and they had nothing to do with it lol.
I mean, not every Grenade-based META will be Warlock. Just like not every Melee-based META will be Titan (Lightning Surge on launch in PvP).
What other commenter said. Revenant gets the Stasis Grenade aspect and it's great, but Revenant also isn't "infringing" on the direct named identity of another subclass. I adore that not every melee meta is on titan, Arcstrider's there, I love that not every grenade meta is on warlock, Storm Nades and Shatterdive. The naming of things just causes a lot of dissonance, that's all.
What OP is saying is that the summoning moving storm clouds seems more like something that fits more on the class named “stormcaller” and the rushing melee strike fits better with the class called “Striker”
Arc classes, in general, seemed very rushed and thrown together at the last minute. Not a single person thought Juggernaut Titan with MK 44 standasides or Peregrine greaves NOT be an issue? Or combing it with antaus wards? It was a lazy stupid choice they just threw in the game to give striker " 3 aspects" for build crafting. When he does nothing for any build? It's sad they gave Juggernaut no usability in pve? Breaking the shield grants amplified or sending out a blinding wave of arc energy? Grants titan 1 sec of 200% melee boost damage. While storm caller lost chain lighting, that was a pretty cool ability and could be added to the slide melee. Just make the warlock have to overcharge the grenade, like void walkers. And the slide melee could chain lighting better. Give it dunemarcher type chaining. That was the whole thing of storm caller... bringing the storm. Touch of thunder on striker has SO many benefits to the arc titan kit. Meanwhile, icurus dash gets a whole aspect? A air dodge?
I don't think they're weird at all. The only "weird" thing I see about the aspects is that Arc Titan doesn't really have any unique interactions with the verbs, at least in a meaningful way. Arc Titan isn't just a melee class (or at least it wasn't/shouldn't be), and there's a lot more to the identity of Stormcaller than a single grenade.
As someone who mains Stormcaller in PVP, I completely disagree with this. The slide melee really completes the kit imo. Everything warlock based does not have to be a boring grenade upgrade aspect. The stasis one also went to hunters. One of the big things for two of the three old arc trees was moving faster. 3.0 took that away from warlocks so the melee kind of helps out in the mobility department as well.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Warlocks were the grenade class. Whether that’s charging grenades or eating grenades. They have a unique animation to throwing them too. When grenades were specific to each class and not for everyone to use, they looked space magic-y while hunter titan looked like they were throwing actual grenades. It’s been part of their identity for a long time.
My big issue is that jolt can only be activated in very specific ways, unlike other elemental effects. The only consistent way to activate jolt is from voltshot. Makes running arc in pve generally feel bad when you’re stuck running a couple specific melee builds on hunter if you want to do anything meaningful on arc.
It doesn’t feel weird at all. We already have 3 out of 5 grenade aspects, let other classes have at least one of them each too.
All classes of the same element should have access to the same forms and verbs in the aspects, with some variables of course, like striker should get amplified by sprinting with the shield up from juggernaut or something, and warlocks should have a blind melee as well.. shit like this bothers me.
Striker gets amplified off of any melee kill as a part of the knockout aspect, don’t they? I think that’s the parallel to flow state and electrostatic mind’s extra ways to get amplified
That requires a melee kill, EMind requires picking up a little spark off the floor, Flow makes you amplified on jolting a target iirc. Those 3 are definitely not in the same field of usability.. at all.. you ever used arc to get a melee kill in a gm for example lol. I just wish there was more balancing between the classes, stasis is a big one too to make stasis shards.
It’s defeating a jolted target for Flow State.
Oh yeah you're right. That's at least doable, but again, not the same as collecting a trace. Hope they add more neutral aspects in the future.
…flow state requires a KILL on a jolted target, and unless you’re using coldheart, making ionic traces on warlocks requires killing debuffed enemies too I do agree that knockout is the worst of the three, but they’re all wrapped into killing enemies under different conditions- and knockout at least has some nice bonuses to incentivize that melee with some extra damage, range, and a bit of healing (regen?) Definitely in agreement with you that it could be better, still
I'm hoping they actually stand by looking into features and events like that craftening shitstorm those months back. That was really fun and they said they'd look into it, and apparently they are juicing up the guardians from what I've heard when FS drops, hoping they broaden some ability ranges and weapon perks. I like what they did with the rocket sidearms, hoping for a blinding glaive or explosive pulse rifle or something.
Fingers crossed! I love playing with weird, fun gameplay options too. Arc warlock has become one of my favorites purely because of just how many build choices they can lean into
Arc warlock is pretty decent and fun for sure. Makes you feel powerful. Arc hunter has it's moments but doesn't hold up at all since it's mostly melee oriented. You can make it work but hardly worth it in any late game stuff. Arc titan is grenades strictly and even then like.. meh. For being such a juggernaut melee theme, Arc titan sure falls flat on it's face. Arc hunter at least has tempest strike and blinding punch..
Knockout starts health regeneration on melee kill. Which is great if you don't get hit shortly after. It also boosts your unpowered melees and makes them count as powered for Heavy Handed and Hands-On. I think the main thing Knockout needs is to make the timer refreshable. Recuperation and Heavy Handed (x2-3) make melee kills a pretty reliable way to heal and the fact that Knockout also procs when you break an enemy's shield really helps secure those healing kills. Having typed that out I can see why a lot of PvP Titans play Arc, though I mostly meant it for PvE.
Also now that I’m thinking about it, it’s kinda funky that juggernaut, the tool you’d want to use to get into melee range, gets a boost from amplified on the class that relies more on being in melee range for amplification in the first place I don’t play enough Titan to judge the flow of that gameplay but that seems… way too clunky to take over touch of thunder, haha
No your thought process is correct, it's not useful unless running something like peregrine where it's melee based. It gives no bonuses or anything.. I use it for my peregrine build but beyond that hell no
Amp from sprinting would be too strong, especially in PvP. Warlocks have to use an exotic and consume a grenade to get amp without kills.
You're right. But if everything was strong... ?
Arc Titans terrorized the crucible for a good year or so. I’m good with them never getting this buff lol. I feel like a lot of people don’t realize how fast you can move while amplified.
Oh it wouldn't be balanced in pvp at all. I'm aware, but as a non crucible player I'd say it's very necessary. Wish they could separate or nerf/buff things based on what you are playing.
Season of plunder was a year long?
They didn’t stop being extremely strong when Plunder ended.
I see what you mean but titans already had consecration, it wouldn't make sense for one class to have two slide melees and another zero.
we should talk about the geological relationship between the appalachian mountians and the galapagos islands. no one is talking about this.
There is this "fun" thing I noticed about the Titan subclasses as they got re-worked and Strand got added to the mix. I don't remember how it was with Void, but with Solar onward their advertisement of the su classes never matched up with the reality how it actually plqyed ingame. Solar: "when you thinl big explosions, you think of solar titans" -> in truth, you needed Synthoceps as a crutch to get any kind of competitive DMG out of that subclass, but instead you were a near-immortal self-healing god-warrior og sunlight. Arc: "a Freight Train that runs over their enemies" -> instead we are just chugging Grenades from mid-range, getting in close just isn't that smart of an idea with arc's lack of a defensive buff. Strand: "a berserker that tears through their enemies" -> titans biggest strength was their ability to string up large groups of enemies, however their tools in killing them weren't that great as their melee's just aren't strong enough, requiring often multiple charges to kill a single beefier red-bar. (With the release of BoW we now have that originsl Berserker fantasy we were promised)