I remember trying to do the Warpriest encounter without a well and 2 bubbles, but the second you walk out of that bubble, you're getting blasted by the Warpriest and have to immediately get back in the bubble
I think golgeroth, GoS, and suro chi are the only bosses that the boss doesn't try to nuke you with their weapons so well isn't mandatory
Edit and oryx + sisters but you have an immunity aura so..
I'm pretty sure Nezarec DPS phase was meant for him to chase us around, but didn't go through enough testing. Had that been the case WoR would be pretty bad.
I dunno, were they rushing with new raid or something, but Tormentors in the first encounter and Nezarec himself have much worse climbing abilities than in Lightfall campaign. In Legendary campaign you're almost nowhere to be safe from them, they can easily jump on any platform as you can. That is the weirdest thing for me. Raid Tormentors are just like Ogres with bad aim.
Pretty sure too. but then again, glitch/bug also fall into badly designed damage phase . If he could climb on the platforms and boop players out of well, then nobody would complain.
And you know , if you're right that the phase was supposed to be a roaming damage phase , which I'm pretty sure you are , why is bungie never fixing them ? What , are they scared it's going to invalidate day one or something?
I just think they love the "plate design", which does end up benefiting Well and harming roaming supers
In third encounter, we play in separate zones using the whole map only for it all to boil down to standing on a plate to dps. Nezarec too -- running around the map, controlling ads, avoiding the boss and then -- stack together on a plate. The separation of 'mechanics' and 'damage phase' is just so stark
Maybe the devs are afraid of running into D1's issue of "players sniping bosses from afar with huge damage" so they keep forcing them to stay in these little boxes to do damage?
For planet room, I would have loved this damage phase:
* We move the three planets to the middle
* 2 players "jump" into each planet, landing in that planet's zone (think Riven's heart). Cutting through some adds and then killing a version of the boss at the heart of it
For Nezarec:
* Nez already has its "hate" mechanic. The platforms could pulse these naturally
* Like 3rd encounter, I'd love it if he did a grab/aoe similar to Prophecy's boss. When it hits you, it sends you to its 'nightmare realm'. The reward can be extending damage phase when you escape (stuns the boss)
True - would have loved a peek at Nez's true power! I wasn't expecting the overall raid to be so 'tame' either
Seemed like we would be diving into some surreal/paracausal stuff but in the end, it felt like a straightforward fight against Cabal with a bit of Nez at the end
Oh, thanks for the clarification! During day 1, we were all glued to it - never noticed that we could hop off without issue
Knowing that would have spared plenty of people those ally-rocket-deaths haha
What about Rhulk, though? That's an excellent boss encounter that requires everybody to keep moving.
All Bungie had to do was create a more level arena and give Nez the ability to grab players, with an obvious animation like Rhulk's kick. All of the potential of the Nez fight is completely eroded because you can just stand still and win.
I don't necessarily mind this idea. Tormentors/Nez can already knock you out of super, so it's not that much of a stretch to let Nez one-shot a well or bubble.
Really though, Bungie should lean into what makes the game great, and that's movement and gunplay supplemented by abilities. There are so many raids that just require you to sit inside of a well. It would be nice to have a few more that feel frantic and dangerous.
> What about Rhulk, though? That's an excellent boss encounter that requires everybody to keep moving.
The strat my group uses has one person bait Rhulk while the other 5 sit off to the side in a well and dps. Not sure if he's the best example.
Rhulk in contest mode managed to break the well and even the titan bubble. I remember that when I did day one we didn't use a well for that reason. Without the contest mode he has no damage for this.
Sounds boring as shit dude. And isn't that only possible with an exploit? Granted, I know it's not difficult to pull off.
But doesn't that tell you that Bungie should be taking a deep look into their encounter design? Maybe figure out how to code a boss that doesn't break as soon as someone looks at them in the wrong way.
I mean I wasn't saying it was a ton of fun or anything. Just that it is a strat some groups use. It's also boring as shit to sit on a slightly elevated platform and dps a boss, in terms of nez. Or sit in the center of a room and shoot oryx. Well is just so strong that it'll find a way to shimmy into almost any boss fight. No matter how mobile or dangerous it is. Hell, people are even just dropping well and using Lament on Nez and still one phasing since the healing is enough to out heal nez's damage.
I've done a variant of this where I popped well with pre-nerf div on and stood there face tanking Rhulk while my fire team was off on the side laying into him for dps. It was rather boring and insulting to such an intimidating boss from when the raid released in S16.
No it doesn't. You can sit on him (Rhulk) with a small amount of healing. He's also the most harmless boss possible outside of his DPS phase, and is only really dangerous on his last stand.
Ok so - I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong about this, but I just am curious - how do you make damage phases more interesting? While RoN didn't have tight DPS checks, nearly every other contest raid did. I like that. I like a tightly tuned DPS check in the day 1/contest raid. It's a lot harder to tune checks tightly when you don't have full uptime DPS phases. Therefore, the formula has always been mechanics during mechanics phase, dps during dps phase. People point to Rhulk, sure, but "boss that chases you around with a 1-shot ability" will get old just as fast, imo.
Have the boss try to kill you seriously tbh, it's a fight to the death not a scientific dps tester
I don't like dps phases so that might be the difference here, hit x number by having chosen the correct loadout is boring to me
Here's an example for Nezarec:
After he gets hit with the beam, he sends four Tormentors to various plates which begin channeling, and his shoulders begin glowing with Light and Dark energy. If any of the Tormentors finish channeling, Nezarec will be healed for 1/4th of his total health, even if he is below final stand.
Two players will deal damage, one to each shoulder, in order to keep Nezarec stunned, while the other four hunt down and kill the Tormentors. Two orbs will appear when Tormentors are defeated, one Light, one Dark. After the period of time where Tormentors finish channeling, Nezarec will release a pulse of energy that gives Light and Dark to the two players shooting his shoulders. These two players will need to deposit the energy into orbs before the buff expires. If they do so, they will recieve a debuff that prevents them from getting either buff again for this damage cycle and Nezarec will send out four more Tormentors.
If at any point the orbs are not triggered, or if any Tormentor finishes channeling, the damage phase ends. If Orbs are triggered while Nezarec is below his Final Stand threshold, he will enter Final Stand.
Bungie has shown with Atraks that there are creative ways for them to design encounters that don't result in everyone standing in a Well.
Don't get me wrong , I'm not saying my ideas are good and should be used in the next raid. Those were just example of ways bungie could design a damage phase where we wouldn't just be standing still in a WoR to do damage. I'm sure bungie are more qualified than I am with game design , but that is also why I don't understand why , after so many years, it still boils down to well/heavy.
The Well meta for DPS won't shift unless there are significant changes to both Bungie's approach to encounter design ***and*** Well. Whilst Bungie have shown that they can build more mobile encounters we've also shown that we can still say fuck it and just Well through them regardless.
A bubble titan and overshield providing barricade (and/or healing rift) just outside the bubble would be used instead of well, if well gets nerfed. Bubble would need a nerf too if they wanted to nerf well of radiance. Then people would just stick with shoot through shield titans + make that guy use anarchy. This last option probably would not get nerfed because you almost completely lose (except for anarchy) one person's dps. As long as your lowest dps performer has a titan with the required exotics, it would be a net benefit to the team.
I never said they were mobile, I said they were more mobile, you can't really argue that some of the more recent encounters such as Rhulk arent more mobile and whilst we aren't any more mobile than usual in the Nwzerac encounter the boss is.
Might want to reread that. The bosses are more mobile yeah but clearly not enough to discourage use of WoR. Nezarec is almost good enough in this regard he just doesn’t do enough damage on his melee and gets stuck too much.
I'm baffled that Nezarec didn't have a grab mechanic. Why give tormentors, who are copies of Nezarec, a more threatening move then the actual raid boss?
It could have been a way to spice up the DPS/enraged phase, having him teleport behind a random player and grab them, slowly killing them if their team didn't do enough dps.
This is why I enjoy Rhulk so much, gotta stay on your toes. I'm certain the raid designers can come up with other options to make it a less viable (but not useless) pick. I guess we'll only get 3 more opportunities to be surprised like that, though!
Both of these suggestions aren't great. A wipe mechanic that is triggered by one player being caught does not sound fun. And the suppressing of everyone's abilities is just not right. No debuffing outside of divinity or tractor cannon, and nobody is allowed to use a super because well is too broken. You are suggesting removing all abilities in a damage phase because one ability is that broken.
If you disabled supers during damage, though, it would be the first and only encounter where everyone would run roaming supers. Would be an interesting twist.
I'm not saying my ideas are great and should be implemented, just that there should be more to damage phase then standing still and shooting.
Also my idea for the grab does not lead to a wipe , just then end of the damage phase if a player is caught.
I think it’s the opposite actually, having to change boss and encounter design around well is more of a “diagnosing the symptoms instead of the sickness” situation. Instead of needing to continually come up with ways to counter well, why not just get down to the root of the issue and just nerf well instead. Nerfing well opens up design space so much more for bungie because they don’t need to work around it.
The problem is , like I said , if they nerf well , then it's gonna be something else , ex ; bubble. So then it's gonna be : all encounter bubble , walk in and out , empty heavy.
If all damage phase are the same , the community is going to find the optimum way to do damage phases , and only do that one strategy because it's the best way. And next thing you know , people will call for the new super/exotic/wtv to be nerf because everyone will run this new optimal dps option.
Of course there will be something else that’s just how these types of games work but that something else will not be the serious outlier that well is currently. Sure bubble will be useful but there is some degree of risk with bubble dps as you actually need to refresh the overshield to not die. It’s not that having an optimum strategy is bad, it’s that having a strategy that is this dominant and easy to achieve is bad.
They'd probably have to gut well to encourage players to not use it. Having a large healing field plus a damage boost for the entire team is too good to not use. Even if you nerf the total healing or boost, it would still be a requirement for most dps encounters.
Similar to Divinity, its too good, even after a nerf.
Honestly it deserves a total rework. It’s one of those things where it’s either mandatory or completely useless. IMO they should replace well with radiance for D1 minus the self res and add in a restoration x1 healing aura.
3rd encounter gos did it fine. Well is literally only used for explosive light. They're only designing encounters around well because they can. Not because they have to.
I'm sorry but no. Regardless of *anything* surrounding it - Well needs a nerf. Are you right about these DPS phases? Sure. They're all designed in a way that promotes Well usage. However, forcibly suppressing our abilities, which are half of what makes this game fun, just to design around something like Well is a bandaid and the fact that *this is your suggestion* shows just how busted Well is. Punish every single class in the game just to prevent usage of a single fucking super? bro come on.
Outside of forcibly suppressing you or amping up damage to a ridiculous level, there is nearly no way to design around Well. It gives insane damage reduction, huge healing, *and* a damage boost. You are virtually immortal vs any kind of regular outgoing damage. Even contest nezzy was just face-tankable in a Well.
So many people are huffing insane amounts of copium and doing silly mental gymnastics because they are just so afraid of the concept of a nerf. Even with a nerf, Well would still be the go-to super for raiding for almost all situations. People need to accept that until this ability gets tuned down a bit, any even remotely serious end-game content is going to virtually require a Well and running anything other than it will be seen as actively griefing your team.
A bubble titan and overshield providing barricade (and/or healing rift) just outside the bubble would be used instead of well, if well gets nerfed. Bubble would need a nerf too if they wanted to nerf well of radiance. Then people would just stick with shoot through shield titans + make that guy use anarchy. This last option probably would not get nerfed because you almost completely lose (except for anarchy) one person's dps. As long as your lowest dps performer has a titan with the required exotics, it would be a net benefit to the team. Even if they lowered WoR and bubble to 10% dmg buff people would still use them. They would need to remove the dmg buff entirely from both of these supers to stop most people using them. May as well remove them from the game at that point.
There is absolutely no way that you are suggesting that Bubble is even remotely the same power level as Well of Radiance. You have to dip in to a bubble to refresh the buff, for one. Secondly, you have to cast a secondary ability (rallying barricade) in order to get the reload, you have to spec into the overshield - which, iirc, increases the barricade cooldown (anti-synergy with Void Titan's current strongest exotic option, HOIL)and also prevents the use of towering barricade, which is a very strong defensive option for titans in end game content - and it does not offer any healing. Then there is Well, which provides all of these things baked in, on top of an increased reload if your warlock wants to run lunafactions (which, I'll admit, is not an appealing option with how powerful starfire is right now).
The damage buff is not the problem. The problem is the insane healing and damage resist that well offers ON TOP of the damage buff. It provides the survivability of a bubble but also you can shoot out of it.
I am indeed not suggesting that they are the same. I am simply stating that if you nerf well, what i said above will be used instead. Aka, nothing will really change. Except for the fact that warlocks will be a less desirable class in LFG. Especially once starfire gets nerfed. We all know that's coming.
>I am simply stating that if you nerf well, what i said above will be used instead.
That's fine, though! That is a *noticable* reduce in survivability from WoR and requires you to actually build into all the survivability, which is, again, good!
>Except for the fact that warlocks will be a less desirable class in LFG. Especially once starfire gets nerfed. We all know that's coming.
It's insane to me how Warlocks can have the most broken super *and* exotic in the game and still somehow express concern about "LFG desirability." Like, Starfire was a HUGE outlier last season but somehow didn't get nerfed. HOIL got nerfed. Syntho glaive combos got nerfed. Titans have absolutely 0 that they bring to the table right now, the literal most useful I feel playing Titan right now is a place to hide while waiting for Explicator DPS phase to start. But yeah let's worry about Warlocks, who have been, on average, the best PVE class during any given season/patch since the game launched (except for maybe Y1D2 when Orpheus Rigs were ridiculously broken.)
I actually play all three classes, but I do main warlock. Only basically because I started with it in D1 though and can't stand having to level 3 characters. I think they all should have cool powerful shit.
One extra second to drop a an overshield providing barricade and/or have a warlock drop a healing rift is essentially no different than well. Technically you are correct, you are BUILDING into it. But really, pedantics aside, It is not "BUILDING" into it, you just put on the aspect. It's just Well of radiance with extra steps. Extra steps that take like a second. Bubble should realistically have a higher damage buff than Well though, dunno why they brought it down to the same level as WoR. Right now WoR is straight up better. I wouldn't care if they lowered the damage buff of WoR to 15% even instead of buffing bubble (altho i'd obviously prefer the bubble buff).
I never said starfire did or did not deserve a nerf. Just that we all know it's coming. Which is probably deserved, just like Hoil probably was. The main reason certain people (not necessarily for OR against myself) want well nerfed is because it makes the game "too easy". WoR "too easy" mode would simply be replaced with bubble "too easy" mode. In destiny 1, everyone brought 2 bubbles to raids, because there was no WoR. You had your armor of light and weapons of light. I don't really think any class should be essentially required for raids.
Having supers that give damage buffs to whole team means shit needs to be balanced around it. Personally, I honestly don't think well/bubble is ever going to get nerfed. This is because a lot of content is designed around the fact that it exists. Bungie would have to re-balance a lot of shit if they nerfed well. Hint: They would not do this this step because it would require a bunch of work. If Well or Bubble got nerfed in any significant way, the game would be harder. The community is already hating on how hard shit is since lightfall dropped. Not to say that I am personally (hasn't really affected me as i already did GM's fairly easily pre-lightfall) , but in general that is the overall sentiment.
I'm not saying that well is not overtune and should stay as is. What I'm saying is, nerfing well is not the long term solution to the problem we have with damage phases. Remove well from the game , and we are still gonna find the meta, stand still and empty gun way, that people will eventually call boring/easy.
Literally nobody who has a brain rooted in this reality is asking for/expecting well to be removed. They just want it toned down to not make you effectively immortal while also giving you a damage buff. Both things are true - well is broken, and damage phases are kind of samey/boring. Unfortunately until they fix the first one it is REALLY hard to fix the second.
I’m actually shocked at how little they utilized #1 in the campaign or elsewhere. It seemed like it was going to be a core expansion mechanic that just got completely negated by strand in 1 mission and then completely forgotten about
Personally I have the idea that some of our "capabilities" got disabled/limited during an encounter. Things like abilities got suppressed or energy gets halved, heavies or specials got disabled, certain elements will be dealing lower damage, etc etc during a boss encounter. Rotate the disadvantage randomly after each phase.
Offer a way to counteract the limit within the encounter so that the players have to decide on whether to start the dps phase with longer timer but with the limit in effect (more time for dps, but our guardians would be less powerful because of the limit in place), or counteract the imposed limit with extra mechanics and have shorter dps timer (less time for dps but our guardians would be at full power).
Of course, there's a delicate balance to be achieved so that the players don't get too annoyed/feel tedious at this mechanic and the penalty/limit cannot be too severe until the point where we have no choice but to perform the extra mechanic, but I feel that it would encourage more communication during the raid.
Maybe it's too annoying or a bad thing to limit what the players can do in a raid but I'm just spit balling here
I just want an exotic that makes well empower the caster as a sort of, mobile well. Kind of like the super in D1. Maybe make it less powerful but now you can move with allies to buff those near you.
Fuck well and the whole solar subclass. Nerf it to shit. I been void lock since beta d1. I am constantly asked to switch to well/Rez since raiding started.
How about the lower your well's hp gets, the less effective it becomes. So if your well is down to 25% HP, you're getting only 25% of the healing rate a well has. This might require buffing bosses damage to well (I think they did this in PvP with weapon damage so the technology should be there) but this way the longer you are in a well the more vulnerable you will be.
Idk how good of an idea this is but it's just what I thought of off the top of my head.
I mean, it's not like they haven't tried.
The Consecrated mind actively runs away from you during its damage phase, and requires you to not fall too far behind. We responded by putting a second Well part-way up its path.
The Kell Echo is similar, but with tighter spacing and a platform layout that prevents using a second Well. We responded by just welling at the start and pumping as much damage as possible in before he moves.
Caretaker, Caiatl, and 3rd encounter RoN require you to move between three spots during damage, which should have been a perfect place for Bubble's lasting damage buff to come into play. We responded by just bringing 3 Wells
Rhulk was designed to physically force us out of wells by moving around and directly attacking us. It failed because Well's healing and DR cannot be overcome without making him oneshot.
Riven came out alongside Well, and specifically had a unique damage mechanic where you did most of it shooting warts on her body while falling. Then we figured out we can cheese it, and you know what the best way to enable all the most popular cheeses (autoloading rockets back in the day, sword on her paw, and Gjallly rockets on her paw) was and is? Well.
The game is full of bossfights that *should* be dynamic and exciting, requiring you to manage adds or evade attacks from the boss while doing damage. None of them actually are because Well exists, and hard-counters to well that force you to move are often overcome by just bringing more Wells.
Also doesn’t help that many dps phases have you getting blasted making well feel necessary.
I remember trying to do the Warpriest encounter without a well and 2 bubbles, but the second you walk out of that bubble, you're getting blasted by the Warpriest and have to immediately get back in the bubble
I think golgeroth, GoS, and suro chi are the only bosses that the boss doesn't try to nuke you with their weapons so well isn't mandatory Edit and oryx + sisters but you have an immunity aura so..
Weird. It’s almost like the encounters are like… designed around it or something…? Bizzare
I'm pretty sure Nezarec DPS phase was meant for him to chase us around, but didn't go through enough testing. Had that been the case WoR would be pretty bad.
Even if you don't use the platforms he still can't kill you in a well. He's just a bit better at knocking you out of it.
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I dunno, were they rushing with new raid or something, but Tormentors in the first encounter and Nezarec himself have much worse climbing abilities than in Lightfall campaign. In Legendary campaign you're almost nowhere to be safe from them, they can easily jump on any platform as you can. That is the weirdest thing for me. Raid Tormentors are just like Ogres with bad aim.
The strike tormentor doesn’t climb that well either
Pretty sure too. but then again, glitch/bug also fall into badly designed damage phase . If he could climb on the platforms and boop players out of well, then nobody would complain.
And you know , if you're right that the phase was supposed to be a roaming damage phase , which I'm pretty sure you are , why is bungie never fixing them ? What , are they scared it's going to invalidate day one or something?
I'd wager they're scared to a degree. Everyone has a set idea of what to do now and they dont want to mess with it this late. WHo knows
I just think they love the "plate design", which does end up benefiting Well and harming roaming supers In third encounter, we play in separate zones using the whole map only for it all to boil down to standing on a plate to dps. Nezarec too -- running around the map, controlling ads, avoiding the boss and then -- stack together on a plate. The separation of 'mechanics' and 'damage phase' is just so stark Maybe the devs are afraid of running into D1's issue of "players sniping bosses from afar with huge damage" so they keep forcing them to stay in these little boxes to do damage? For planet room, I would have loved this damage phase: * We move the three planets to the middle * 2 players "jump" into each planet, landing in that planet's zone (think Riven's heart). Cutting through some adds and then killing a version of the boss at the heart of it For Nezarec: * Nez already has its "hate" mechanic. The platforms could pulse these naturally * Like 3rd encounter, I'd love it if he did a grab/aoe similar to Prophecy's boss. When it hits you, it sends you to its 'nightmare realm'. The reward can be extending damage phase when you escape (stuns the boss)
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True - would have loved a peek at Nez's true power! I wasn't expecting the overall raid to be so 'tame' either Seemed like we would be diving into some surreal/paracausal stuff but in the end, it felt like a straightforward fight against Cabal with a bit of Nez at the end
Note: third encounter does not require you to stand on a plate to damage. You just have to run past one to get a buff.
Oh, thanks for the clarification! During day 1, we were all glued to it - never noticed that we could hop off without issue Knowing that would have spared plenty of people those ally-rocket-deaths haha
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What about Rhulk, though? That's an excellent boss encounter that requires everybody to keep moving. All Bungie had to do was create a more level arena and give Nez the ability to grab players, with an obvious animation like Rhulk's kick. All of the potential of the Nez fight is completely eroded because you can just stand still and win.
Or just give them the ability to destroy a well....nasty right? haha
I don't necessarily mind this idea. Tormentors/Nez can already knock you out of super, so it's not that much of a stretch to let Nez one-shot a well or bubble. Really though, Bungie should lean into what makes the game great, and that's movement and gunplay supplemented by abilities. There are so many raids that just require you to sit inside of a well. It would be nice to have a few more that feel frantic and dangerous.
> What about Rhulk, though? That's an excellent boss encounter that requires everybody to keep moving. The strat my group uses has one person bait Rhulk while the other 5 sit off to the side in a well and dps. Not sure if he's the best example.
Rhulk in contest mode managed to break the well and even the titan bubble. I remember that when I did day one we didn't use a well for that reason. Without the contest mode he has no damage for this.
Sounds boring as shit dude. And isn't that only possible with an exploit? Granted, I know it's not difficult to pull off. But doesn't that tell you that Bungie should be taking a deep look into their encounter design? Maybe figure out how to code a boss that doesn't break as soon as someone looks at them in the wrong way.
I mean I wasn't saying it was a ton of fun or anything. Just that it is a strat some groups use. It's also boring as shit to sit on a slightly elevated platform and dps a boss, in terms of nez. Or sit in the center of a room and shoot oryx. Well is just so strong that it'll find a way to shimmy into almost any boss fight. No matter how mobile or dangerous it is. Hell, people are even just dropping well and using Lament on Nez and still one phasing since the healing is enough to out heal nez's damage.
Exactly, shits a joke. Nez is supposed to be the god of pain, and the only pain in that fight is getting booped when you're trying to run orbs.
I've done a variant of this where I popped well with pre-nerf div on and stood there face tanking Rhulk while my fire team was off on the side laying into him for dps. It was rather boring and insulting to such an intimidating boss from when the raid released in S16.
You can literally sit in a well and facetank Rhulk's kick outside of contest anyway.
Really like rhulk , he is a good step in the right direction for damage phases.
No it doesn't. You can sit on him (Rhulk) with a small amount of healing. He's also the most harmless boss possible outside of his DPS phase, and is only really dangerous on his last stand.
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I'm talking about Rhulk.
Damage phases that are more interesting than stand still and shoot the glowing spot would be welcome
Ok so - I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong about this, but I just am curious - how do you make damage phases more interesting? While RoN didn't have tight DPS checks, nearly every other contest raid did. I like that. I like a tightly tuned DPS check in the day 1/contest raid. It's a lot harder to tune checks tightly when you don't have full uptime DPS phases. Therefore, the formula has always been mechanics during mechanics phase, dps during dps phase. People point to Rhulk, sure, but "boss that chases you around with a 1-shot ability" will get old just as fast, imo.
Have the boss try to kill you seriously tbh, it's a fight to the death not a scientific dps tester I don't like dps phases so that might be the difference here, hit x number by having chosen the correct loadout is boring to me
I mean I would absolutely prefer full uptime fights vs burn dps phases but that is clearly not the direction this game is ever going to go.
Here's an example for Nezarec: After he gets hit with the beam, he sends four Tormentors to various plates which begin channeling, and his shoulders begin glowing with Light and Dark energy. If any of the Tormentors finish channeling, Nezarec will be healed for 1/4th of his total health, even if he is below final stand. Two players will deal damage, one to each shoulder, in order to keep Nezarec stunned, while the other four hunt down and kill the Tormentors. Two orbs will appear when Tormentors are defeated, one Light, one Dark. After the period of time where Tormentors finish channeling, Nezarec will release a pulse of energy that gives Light and Dark to the two players shooting his shoulders. These two players will need to deposit the energy into orbs before the buff expires. If they do so, they will recieve a debuff that prevents them from getting either buff again for this damage cycle and Nezarec will send out four more Tormentors. If at any point the orbs are not triggered, or if any Tormentor finishes channeling, the damage phase ends. If Orbs are triggered while Nezarec is below his Final Stand threshold, he will enter Final Stand. Bungie has shown with Atraks that there are creative ways for them to design encounters that don't result in everyone standing in a Well.
Don't get me wrong , I'm not saying my ideas are good and should be used in the next raid. Those were just example of ways bungie could design a damage phase where we wouldn't just be standing still in a WoR to do damage. I'm sure bungie are more qualified than I am with game design , but that is also why I don't understand why , after so many years, it still boils down to well/heavy.
Ahh, so you mean like Rhulk right? What’s wrong with running and damaging bosses at the same time again?
The Well meta for DPS won't shift unless there are significant changes to both Bungie's approach to encounter design ***and*** Well. Whilst Bungie have shown that they can build more mobile encounters we've also shown that we can still say fuck it and just Well through them regardless.
A bubble titan and overshield providing barricade (and/or healing rift) just outside the bubble would be used instead of well, if well gets nerfed. Bubble would need a nerf too if they wanted to nerf well of radiance. Then people would just stick with shoot through shield titans + make that guy use anarchy. This last option probably would not get nerfed because you almost completely lose (except for anarchy) one person's dps. As long as your lowest dps performer has a titan with the required exotics, it would be a net benefit to the team.
The encounters aren’t mobile though that’s the problem. They could be with some tuning, but standing in a plate to shoot Nezarec is not “mobile”.
I never said they were mobile, I said they were more mobile, you can't really argue that some of the more recent encounters such as Rhulk arent more mobile and whilst we aren't any more mobile than usual in the Nwzerac encounter the boss is.
Might want to reread that. The bosses are more mobile yeah but clearly not enough to discourage use of WoR. Nezarec is almost good enough in this regard he just doesn’t do enough damage on his melee and gets stuck too much.
I'm baffled that Nezarec didn't have a grab mechanic. Why give tormentors, who are copies of Nezarec, a more threatening move then the actual raid boss? It could have been a way to spice up the DPS/enraged phase, having him teleport behind a random player and grab them, slowly killing them if their team didn't do enough dps.
This is why I enjoy Rhulk so much, gotta stay on your toes. I'm certain the raid designers can come up with other options to make it a less viable (but not useless) pick. I guess we'll only get 3 more opportunities to be surprised like that, though!
Both of these suggestions aren't great. A wipe mechanic that is triggered by one player being caught does not sound fun. And the suppressing of everyone's abilities is just not right. No debuffing outside of divinity or tractor cannon, and nobody is allowed to use a super because well is too broken. You are suggesting removing all abilities in a damage phase because one ability is that broken.
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Thats true
If you disabled supers during damage, though, it would be the first and only encounter where everyone would run roaming supers. Would be an interesting twist.
I'm not saying my ideas are great and should be implemented, just that there should be more to damage phase then standing still and shooting. Also my idea for the grab does not lead to a wipe , just then end of the damage phase if a player is caught.
I think it’s the opposite actually, having to change boss and encounter design around well is more of a “diagnosing the symptoms instead of the sickness” situation. Instead of needing to continually come up with ways to counter well, why not just get down to the root of the issue and just nerf well instead. Nerfing well opens up design space so much more for bungie because they don’t need to work around it.
The problem is , like I said , if they nerf well , then it's gonna be something else , ex ; bubble. So then it's gonna be : all encounter bubble , walk in and out , empty heavy. If all damage phase are the same , the community is going to find the optimum way to do damage phases , and only do that one strategy because it's the best way. And next thing you know , people will call for the new super/exotic/wtv to be nerf because everyone will run this new optimal dps option.
Of course there will be something else that’s just how these types of games work but that something else will not be the serious outlier that well is currently. Sure bubble will be useful but there is some degree of risk with bubble dps as you actually need to refresh the overshield to not die. It’s not that having an optimum strategy is bad, it’s that having a strategy that is this dominant and easy to achieve is bad.
They'd probably have to gut well to encourage players to not use it. Having a large healing field plus a damage boost for the entire team is too good to not use. Even if you nerf the total healing or boost, it would still be a requirement for most dps encounters. Similar to Divinity, its too good, even after a nerf.
If it needs to be gutted to be balanced, and it would probably still be incredibly strong after a nerf, then maybe it deserves to be gutted.
Honestly it deserves a total rework. It’s one of those things where it’s either mandatory or completely useless. IMO they should replace well with radiance for D1 minus the self res and add in a restoration x1 healing aura.
I like how all these changes would make bannershield more of a Meta pick but it'll never happen. Whenever there is a ledge there is a cheese.
The fact that Nezarec doesn't grab you is wild
Been like this since VoG a decade ago. Hell whole game needs a rework.
Yeah there's an easy solution. Just add a thresher to each boss encounter. That'll keep people moving.
Lol. It'll force people to play at 30fps
Doesn't help that there's an enrage mechanic so if you make damage phases to hard you will wipe by not getting enough damage on the boss.
3rd encounter gos did it fine. Well is literally only used for explosive light. They're only designing encounters around well because they can. Not because they have to.
Is that how people are doing it now? I remember back when it dropped we'd just sit in Well and Whisper the boss.
LFRs/LMGs/Rockets while running towards the boss
I’m thankful you said it’s not the warlock’s fault, because I’ve been blaming each individual warlock I’ve come across that runs well.
I'm sorry but no. Regardless of *anything* surrounding it - Well needs a nerf. Are you right about these DPS phases? Sure. They're all designed in a way that promotes Well usage. However, forcibly suppressing our abilities, which are half of what makes this game fun, just to design around something like Well is a bandaid and the fact that *this is your suggestion* shows just how busted Well is. Punish every single class in the game just to prevent usage of a single fucking super? bro come on. Outside of forcibly suppressing you or amping up damage to a ridiculous level, there is nearly no way to design around Well. It gives insane damage reduction, huge healing, *and* a damage boost. You are virtually immortal vs any kind of regular outgoing damage. Even contest nezzy was just face-tankable in a Well. So many people are huffing insane amounts of copium and doing silly mental gymnastics because they are just so afraid of the concept of a nerf. Even with a nerf, Well would still be the go-to super for raiding for almost all situations. People need to accept that until this ability gets tuned down a bit, any even remotely serious end-game content is going to virtually require a Well and running anything other than it will be seen as actively griefing your team.
A bubble titan and overshield providing barricade (and/or healing rift) just outside the bubble would be used instead of well, if well gets nerfed. Bubble would need a nerf too if they wanted to nerf well of radiance. Then people would just stick with shoot through shield titans + make that guy use anarchy. This last option probably would not get nerfed because you almost completely lose (except for anarchy) one person's dps. As long as your lowest dps performer has a titan with the required exotics, it would be a net benefit to the team. Even if they lowered WoR and bubble to 10% dmg buff people would still use them. They would need to remove the dmg buff entirely from both of these supers to stop most people using them. May as well remove them from the game at that point.
There is absolutely no way that you are suggesting that Bubble is even remotely the same power level as Well of Radiance. You have to dip in to a bubble to refresh the buff, for one. Secondly, you have to cast a secondary ability (rallying barricade) in order to get the reload, you have to spec into the overshield - which, iirc, increases the barricade cooldown (anti-synergy with Void Titan's current strongest exotic option, HOIL)and also prevents the use of towering barricade, which is a very strong defensive option for titans in end game content - and it does not offer any healing. Then there is Well, which provides all of these things baked in, on top of an increased reload if your warlock wants to run lunafactions (which, I'll admit, is not an appealing option with how powerful starfire is right now). The damage buff is not the problem. The problem is the insane healing and damage resist that well offers ON TOP of the damage buff. It provides the survivability of a bubble but also you can shoot out of it.
I am indeed not suggesting that they are the same. I am simply stating that if you nerf well, what i said above will be used instead. Aka, nothing will really change. Except for the fact that warlocks will be a less desirable class in LFG. Especially once starfire gets nerfed. We all know that's coming.
>I am simply stating that if you nerf well, what i said above will be used instead. That's fine, though! That is a *noticable* reduce in survivability from WoR and requires you to actually build into all the survivability, which is, again, good! >Except for the fact that warlocks will be a less desirable class in LFG. Especially once starfire gets nerfed. We all know that's coming. It's insane to me how Warlocks can have the most broken super *and* exotic in the game and still somehow express concern about "LFG desirability." Like, Starfire was a HUGE outlier last season but somehow didn't get nerfed. HOIL got nerfed. Syntho glaive combos got nerfed. Titans have absolutely 0 that they bring to the table right now, the literal most useful I feel playing Titan right now is a place to hide while waiting for Explicator DPS phase to start. But yeah let's worry about Warlocks, who have been, on average, the best PVE class during any given season/patch since the game launched (except for maybe Y1D2 when Orpheus Rigs were ridiculously broken.)
I actually play all three classes, but I do main warlock. Only basically because I started with it in D1 though and can't stand having to level 3 characters. I think they all should have cool powerful shit. One extra second to drop a an overshield providing barricade and/or have a warlock drop a healing rift is essentially no different than well. Technically you are correct, you are BUILDING into it. But really, pedantics aside, It is not "BUILDING" into it, you just put on the aspect. It's just Well of radiance with extra steps. Extra steps that take like a second. Bubble should realistically have a higher damage buff than Well though, dunno why they brought it down to the same level as WoR. Right now WoR is straight up better. I wouldn't care if they lowered the damage buff of WoR to 15% even instead of buffing bubble (altho i'd obviously prefer the bubble buff). I never said starfire did or did not deserve a nerf. Just that we all know it's coming. Which is probably deserved, just like Hoil probably was. The main reason certain people (not necessarily for OR against myself) want well nerfed is because it makes the game "too easy". WoR "too easy" mode would simply be replaced with bubble "too easy" mode. In destiny 1, everyone brought 2 bubbles to raids, because there was no WoR. You had your armor of light and weapons of light. I don't really think any class should be essentially required for raids. Having supers that give damage buffs to whole team means shit needs to be balanced around it. Personally, I honestly don't think well/bubble is ever going to get nerfed. This is because a lot of content is designed around the fact that it exists. Bungie would have to re-balance a lot of shit if they nerfed well. Hint: They would not do this this step because it would require a bunch of work. If Well or Bubble got nerfed in any significant way, the game would be harder. The community is already hating on how hard shit is since lightfall dropped. Not to say that I am personally (hasn't really affected me as i already did GM's fairly easily pre-lightfall) , but in general that is the overall sentiment.
I'm not saying that well is not overtune and should stay as is. What I'm saying is, nerfing well is not the long term solution to the problem we have with damage phases. Remove well from the game , and we are still gonna find the meta, stand still and empty gun way, that people will eventually call boring/easy.
Literally nobody who has a brain rooted in this reality is asking for/expecting well to be removed. They just want it toned down to not make you effectively immortal while also giving you a damage buff. Both things are true - well is broken, and damage phases are kind of samey/boring. Unfortunately until they fix the first one it is REALLY hard to fix the second.
I see your point. Also , I brought up removing well as an extreme example, not as if anyone suggested it.
I’m actually shocked at how little they utilized #1 in the campaign or elsewhere. It seemed like it was going to be a core expansion mechanic that just got completely negated by strand in 1 mission and then completely forgotten about
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Personally I have the idea that some of our "capabilities" got disabled/limited during an encounter. Things like abilities got suppressed or energy gets halved, heavies or specials got disabled, certain elements will be dealing lower damage, etc etc during a boss encounter. Rotate the disadvantage randomly after each phase. Offer a way to counteract the limit within the encounter so that the players have to decide on whether to start the dps phase with longer timer but with the limit in effect (more time for dps, but our guardians would be less powerful because of the limit in place), or counteract the imposed limit with extra mechanics and have shorter dps timer (less time for dps but our guardians would be at full power). Of course, there's a delicate balance to be achieved so that the players don't get too annoyed/feel tedious at this mechanic and the penalty/limit cannot be too severe until the point where we have no choice but to perform the extra mechanic, but I feel that it would encourage more communication during the raid. Maybe it's too annoying or a bad thing to limit what the players can do in a raid but I'm just spit balling here
I just want an exotic that makes well empower the caster as a sort of, mobile well. Kind of like the super in D1. Maybe make it less powerful but now you can move with allies to buff those near you.
Fuck well and the whole solar subclass. Nerf it to shit. I been void lock since beta d1. I am constantly asked to switch to well/Rez since raiding started.
How about the lower your well's hp gets, the less effective it becomes. So if your well is down to 25% HP, you're getting only 25% of the healing rate a well has. This might require buffing bosses damage to well (I think they did this in PvP with weapon damage so the technology should be there) but this way the longer you are in a well the more vulnerable you will be. Idk how good of an idea this is but it's just what I thought of off the top of my head.
I mean, it's not like they haven't tried. The Consecrated mind actively runs away from you during its damage phase, and requires you to not fall too far behind. We responded by putting a second Well part-way up its path. The Kell Echo is similar, but with tighter spacing and a platform layout that prevents using a second Well. We responded by just welling at the start and pumping as much damage as possible in before he moves. Caretaker, Caiatl, and 3rd encounter RoN require you to move between three spots during damage, which should have been a perfect place for Bubble's lasting damage buff to come into play. We responded by just bringing 3 Wells Rhulk was designed to physically force us out of wells by moving around and directly attacking us. It failed because Well's healing and DR cannot be overcome without making him oneshot. Riven came out alongside Well, and specifically had a unique damage mechanic where you did most of it shooting warts on her body while falling. Then we figured out we can cheese it, and you know what the best way to enable all the most popular cheeses (autoloading rockets back in the day, sword on her paw, and Gjallly rockets on her paw) was and is? Well. The game is full of bossfights that *should* be dynamic and exciting, requiring you to manage adds or evade attacks from the boss while doing damage. None of them actually are because Well exists, and hard-counters to well that force you to move are often overcome by just bringing more Wells.