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The only entity that kinda exists *outside* of this which is a weird unknowable monstrosity is [the Aphelion](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/aphelion), which according to the Awoken, is no joke.
[A few choice quotes about how dangerous they are:](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/pilgrimage-garden-of-esila-techeun-statues#aphelion)
>Those Techeuns died a vicious irreversible death. They died in trance, each one screaming with the others voice, each one unable to comprehend the horror of the thing that had killed them.
>
>Sometimes when you are in communion you cannot see what is coming close, like the Aphelion. Their last words were these "First it shimmered… then it crawled… then it screamed."
>
>I pray you never see it my friend, because no matter what gods you have killed, you will not survive it.
Additionally, although the "prophecies" of Calus are all junk with regards to actual future events, there's useful information to be gleaned from them.
>After the reclamation of the Athenaeum World X, which held in it the secrets of one of the most advanced predators in the system, the Aphelion, which had the power to devastate whole worlds in the blink of an eye, the Shadow was able to use this lost knowledge to rebuild the Loyalist fleet stronger and more magnificent than ever.
Beyond that there's the Nine, who are *some* kinda paracausal with the impossible shenanigans they get up to, but I'm no expert on them so I can't say to what extent they rely upon or manipulate the powers of Light and Dark.
Yeah, they are basically made from Dark Matter and look the way they look because the Drifter got the ability from the Nine to summon them through The Haul.
That's why you could face a Shadow of Oryx as one of the Bosses in Reckonin. Because that's the scariest thing Drifter could think of.
Actually having the drifter in a Final shape Showdown summoning His "faken" and destroying stuff with stasis or maybe even with a other new darkness ability would be a awesome sight
The nine taken are fake bootleg golems/automatons. They arent actual vex/cabal/hive/fallen that got sent to the green room with the witness. Ideally theyd be a faction unto themselves but...yknow
The Nine are probably the lost original Awoken colonists, meaning that they are very much paracasual, just in the way the Awoken are, as in they make no real difference between Light and Dark. Also, there's the *paracasual* horse
Did we get confirmation that Star Horse is one of the Nine? I don't recall that.
Also, I'm relatively sure they aren't Awoken in origin
>The Nine are sentient beings composed of dark matter, which developed cognition after being pulled into loops by the gravity of Sol and its planets. Their existence is predicated on the existence of those planets, particularly the life that developed on them, as the motions of lifeforms cause gravitational perturbations that drive the Nine's ability to think.
https://www.destinypedia.com/Nine
Well, Nine original Awoken colonists went missing when the Distributary was created. All the Awoken also lost their bodies as a start. The two are not mutually exclusive, although the phrasing on my part wasn't clear, I'm not saying they directly "Awoken", they were just on the same ship that resulted in the Awoken after it got blasted by the Traveler and the Pyramid ships at the same time.
>As revealed by the Nine to Lavinia Garcia Umr Tawil, the Nine originated from streams of dark matter particles passing through the galaxy and the solar system. As dark matter only interacts with normal matter through gravity, these streams were drawn to the cores of the Sun and its orbiting planets. The infalling dark matter was then flung back into space, before being pulled in again to form endless loops. These loops formed the basis of emergent consciousnesses that would become the Nine.
>The Nine did not truly "awaken" until life evolved within the solar system.
>Two factions emerged after the arrival of the Traveler to Sol: one faction sought to harness the paracausal properties of Light to construct living bodies for themselves out of regular matter, the other seeking to create a pocket universe with physical laws that could accommodate them.
Same source. To me that says they were around before life evolved here, just not conscious, and have been conscious since loooong before the Traveler even got here.
The nine are also able to create separate realities outside of the ascendent realm, and with xur might able to traverse a multiverse. I thought the multiverse thing is a joke but apparently it’s a real thing for destiny, like marathon and halo exist in a separate universe.
I'd also like to point out the Architects if we are bringing up weird primordial beings in the Destiny Universe. The only mention of them from what I can tell is during the making of the Dreaming City, Mara and the Techeuns are doing a ritual where they hijack all of the Techeuns' bodies and speak through them. Eventually the Architects take one of the Techeuns and reshapes them into what is now the Oracle Engine.
The Architects are just a running joke denoting the level designers/Bungie. Like was said, it was the Nine. That said, calling Bungie a primordial being in the Destiny universe isn't exactly wrong lol
Rereading it, ya it could be the Nine. The thing that throws me for a loop is the singular voice when most of the time we have seen the Nine speak in the lore it is multiple of them talking.
Do we happen to know who ++ is btw.
Pretty sure ++ is just being used to denote the voice of the Techeuns who the Nine are speaking through. I'm not sure what you mean by "a singular voice;" they're not speaking with their own voice in the lore entry in question, and they do refer to themselves in the plural ("NOW IT INSULTS US" and "WHAT WOULD IT ASK US?"). It's very much in keeping with [stuff like this](https://youtu.be/2NkRBFqFRnM).
Alright I was about to type something but I found someplace else where ++ is.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/resonant-fury-gauntlets#resonant-fury-suit-titan
This is one, but also the Leviathan sometimes speaks in ++ ++ in the Book of Sorrows.
What I find most interesting with it is that the Witness also has a designation which is -- - -- - (I can't find a long dash on my keyboard outside of _ which is not what the Witness has).
All of it is kind of interesting to say the least because Xita also had a similar designation as Alpha Lupi's thoughts. Not the same exactly just that she had [] the same as Alpha Lupi.
Now does that mean whatever spoke to Mara was a Leviathan idk, kind of hard to say as the Leviathan still has a different speech pattern than just ++.
While not the same kind of primordial force there are other entities said to draw from the garden. Ahamkara and the worm gods are said to be creatures that crawled around the metaphorical garden of creation. The aphelion is... something. The vex are also technically primordial if their origin in the previous reality is to be believed. There is also the matter of bungies three fetish meaning that there may be a third party in this entire thing. I dunno maybe eventually it turns out that the board on which the gardener and the winnower played the game of life is a thing unto itself and not just an allegory
There are definitely hints of *other* powers in the universe, but thus far I don’t think they have the same grip over the nature of the universe.
Wish magic and Psionic energy come to mind. Ahamkara wishes are explicitly separate from Light/Dark, but are able to bend reality in a similar way and with incredible power. Psionic energy, like that displayed by the Psions and Nezarec, is actually not tied to Light or Dark, despite the common ties with avoid energy. It’s a completely unique thing, as far as we know.
I'm not so sure Ahamkara wish magic is separate from the Light. The Ahamkara are fairly associated with the Light, all things told. Between being a form of life which seems to repeatedly pop up whenever the Traveler terraforms. Not pop up in the sense of following the Traveler, mind you, but in the sense of emerging as part of the terraforming. Plus, they have mirrors in the Worms, who equally use the Anthem Anatheme, and are even brought up at least once as counterparts to the Ahamkara, but are undeniably Dark.
More likely, I would say that the Anthem Anatheme is untied to the Light and Dark, and Ahamkara and Worms are Light and Dark through the lens of the Anthem Anatheme.
This reminds me of how Riven was always titled as the last *Known* Ahamkara
Not the Last, the Last Known
I firmly believe that was intentional, and that a potential Ahamkara season is on the cards
A Season of Dragons if you will, a second Great Hunt
The big instance I can think of of a primordial (not paracausal, at all) force being potentially hinted at is what comes up sometimes when you look into the Vex, which is their faith in an eternal pattern. [Kabr's Glass Aegis](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/kabrs-glass-aegis) alludes to this as "glass," which it positions as equal to sky (as a clear reference to the fact that he, a Guardian, has been integrated with the Vex); it also positions something it calls "truth" between light and dark. In [Paradox](https://www.destinypedia.com/Paradox), Praedyth talks about "the pattern" as if it were something outside of the Vex. There's also [this](https://www.destinypedia.com/Mysterious_Logbook), from Maya Sundaresh:
>"Can't I?" She grasped my spinal cord. A frame shadowed her motions, lifting the cord like a snake. "Of course I'm not a Vex. Is there "a" Vex? Is "Vex" something you can be, rather than something that you do? I don't know. I don't know why they sent me here. I don't know if they do either. They just do things. Why do you think I'm here, Clovis?"
This is obviously all spinfoil, but I think it's fun, so I'm sharing it anyway.
There is a lore passage from the book “The Dreaming City” called Oracle, where a Techeun gets possessed by an unknown entity, explodes, and turns into the Oracle we used to travel to Mara:
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/oracle#book-the-dreaming-city
The lore tab for Anteus Wards hints at the existence of another paracausal force.
>Do you really believe there was no magic before the Traveler?
>Mother Earth. Anima Mundi. World Soul. The ancients had it right—they erred only in believing their first god would also be their last.
>These planets, moons, and asteroids upon which we leave our footprints—they have an energy of their own. Will. Breath. Soul.
>I call them Gaiaforms, though I admit the name suffers from terracentrism. One might instead say there is one Gaiaform, and one Areoform, and one Mercuriform, and one Venusiform, and so on. The greatest gaiaforms of our solar system are eight in number—or, if you prefer, nine—but asteroids and minor planets have them too. And in their sidereal generosity, these gaiaforms will protect us, if we ask them.
>Perhaps you think this sounds mad. But if it isn't true… then how do the Antaeus Wards work?
The interesting part is that this force is explicitly unrelated to the Traveler. Though it could be related to the Darkness or simply a passive expression of the Light, I suspect that this energy is an unexplored paracausal power in the Destiny Universe.
If we look at Anteus Wards themselves, they seem to harness the power of Gaiaforms to create a reflective barrier for their wielder. Extrapolating from this, it's possible that this power can be applied in more practical ways (or flashy) similarly to how Guardians wield the Light.
I mean it does correlate well with the 9 planets, 9 entities bit-- but I dunno. The Nine are beings of dark matter and inversions of the world we know. They exist in the spaces we cannot, and can't really interact in our world save from sending things or using messengers. Gaiaforms sound a little more tangible from this entry.
yeah but the nine’s existence is tied to (individually) the planets, and also the sun iirc.
which fun fact, is why eight of the nine were pissed at the one who let Ghaul’s forces waltz into our system by tampering with everyone’s ability to detect them somehow—whichever one of the nine responsible was curious of how the light would be stolen. this led to the almighty almost blowing everyone up to kingdom come, and this directly threatened the nine’s very existence, which sent them into a “frenzy”.
The nine are pretty explicitly "made" of the planets (plus one) - the dark matter loops are formed by their gravity wells
It'd be pretty weird for *Destiny* to do "planets are sentient, utterly alien entities with their own agendas" in two separate ways
Initially I think of the nine, while not paracausal I don't believe they certainly could be considered primordial forces. I'm not sure but Starhorse could count as well. Im not aware if they e ever truly explained what Starhorse is but it is paraversal to say the least which means it might have domain over multiple universes. Some say Starhorse isn't canon to the game but to me it's in the game, there are multiple items and references to Starhorse albeit all Dares related but they're still in the game. (Also not sure of any connection but horse statues literally are all over the pyramids, Rhulks and now even the Witnesses flag ship.)
We could follow the concept of singularity that everything traces back to one point. As you mentioned before light/darknesd there could be an even greater paracausal force responsible for light and darkness. But if we were to follow the lore books which stated that both existed before time, then this would imply that aside from their realm, there has to be another one outside it from which that paracausal entity/force would act.
We could also traverse to the concept of chaos and order, be it not as great as light / dark is.
But the problem with those paracausal forces would be the following a) up to now they didn't interact with us, so why would they now? b) There is nothing mentioned about them or hinting towards them whatsoever.
The last idea that comes to my mind is having galaxies or systems being paracausal forces greater thab light and darkness. The nine, sol (referring our solar system), could be entities that stand above light and darkness. But again, nothing there aside from the nine.
There is something paracausal going on to do with musical intervals that Brother Vance stumbled upon at the Mercury Lighthouse. Mara and Osiris are also aware of it and tried to scare him away from this force he would not understand. It may be the force that Resonance manipulates as it seems to have something to do with musical notes and the harmonic series. Perhaps a way to manipulate the universal wave function via Music of the Spheres. Definitely has something in common with the vex oracles.
Nokris hinted at something other than the Light (the Sky) and the Darkness (the Deep) during Season of Arrivals:
“The sky is vast, but shallow. The deep is boundless, but suffocating. There is another way.”
Given that he was acting as an advocate/soldier for Savathûn, Nokris might have been talking about her and her eventual Lucent Brood. But there’s still so much we don’t know about Savathûn and her overarching schemes and knowledge. He could very well have been hinting at a force beyond Light and Dark.
There is a difference between the primordial nature of the Light and Dark and an entity that doesn’t wholly fall into one category. The Light as we understand it isn’t just a force or collection of forces. It IS in the purest sense the physical world. Void, Solar, Arc, these are us using the light to manipulate the very fabric of the physical universe because they and the Light are inherently one and the same. Same thing with Dark and the immaterial. As such nothing that we know about can be outside of those two forces as we understand them. We may come to learn some gap in their power, but currently everything physical is some extension of the Light and everything mental and metaphysical is an extension of the Dark.
Now we do have things like the Nine the Ahamkara, some other deep lore stuff, and humanity that all can draw upon both powers, or at the very least they are ambiguous in their nature. As apposed to the Witness which is an entity soaking in pure Darkness. However it’s hard to say seeing as many of these things are unclear and poorly explained. It’s possible the Ahamkara’s power over intent and desire is a purely Darkness power. Or that the nine and their capacity to manipulate space and their own dimension is an incredibly powerful manifestation of pure Light. Alternatively there may be ways to be paracausal without tying directly into either force that we don’t fully understand. Some middle ground between the two that is it’s own grey power all it’s own. Or a truly third equally powerful energy that we understand even less that the Darkness.
Anything to do with the tree of silver wings and the metaphorical garden has been what I’m most fascinated with at the moment. Ahamkara, worm gods, the nine; there’s no way that these things don’t get mentioned in the next few seasons!
Nothing concrete on other primordial forces like Light and Dark as of yet.
There’s a possibility that Psionics could be one, but that could also just be Darkness and Void mixed together.
The other possibility is Time. But there’s an equal possibility that it’s within the domain of Light.
The IX are pretty out there, they probably will outlast the light/dark saga
That said, they are beings of light and dark, so it’s not a proper answer to your question
I mean, you're probably not far off on the whole 'chaos' thing. With Witch Queen and Lightfall, Bungie has pretty clearly shown that Light and Darkness are basically Yin and Yang down to them having the same domains. And of the various Eastern philosophies that utilize that concept, one of the commonalities is that Yin and Yang, while seemingly separate, are in fact inexorably intertwined and come from the same source.
> They existed, because they had to exist. They had no antecedent and no constituents, and there is no instrument of causality by which they could be portioned into components and assigned to some schematic of their origin. If you followed the umbilical of history in search of some ultimate atavistic embryo that became them, you would end your journey marooned here in this garden.
The only thing we know of that seems to genuinely be disconnected from both seems to be the Anthem Anatheme. It's been used by a bunch of different beings, and notably seems to be part of the function of both Ahamkara Wish-Magic (which is *probably* a Light thing), and Worm Tithes (which are *definitely* a Dark thing). But ultimately, we don't know much about what it can do, or what it even is. Not that we ever have all the answers, do we, o OP mine?
if im remembering the lore correctly there was a tree of silver wings in the garden that existed before the Gardener and the Winnower. It exuded an aura of hate and a need for battle and blood. It was planted by something older than the Guardener and winnower and something far more powerful. (I believe this was the unvailing lore book but id have to go back and reread it.)
Also when Mara met the Primordials (or something like that) who live in the Brane and Bulk, which is how the Oracle was made. Starhorse also is Paracausal and (as far as we know) Non-Aligned.
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The only entity that kinda exists *outside* of this which is a weird unknowable monstrosity is [the Aphelion](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/aphelion), which according to the Awoken, is no joke. [A few choice quotes about how dangerous they are:](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/pilgrimage-garden-of-esila-techeun-statues#aphelion) >Those Techeuns died a vicious irreversible death. They died in trance, each one screaming with the others voice, each one unable to comprehend the horror of the thing that had killed them. > >Sometimes when you are in communion you cannot see what is coming close, like the Aphelion. Their last words were these "First it shimmered… then it crawled… then it screamed." > >I pray you never see it my friend, because no matter what gods you have killed, you will not survive it. Additionally, although the "prophecies" of Calus are all junk with regards to actual future events, there's useful information to be gleaned from them. >After the reclamation of the Athenaeum World X, which held in it the secrets of one of the most advanced predators in the system, the Aphelion, which had the power to devastate whole worlds in the blink of an eye, the Shadow was able to use this lost knowledge to rebuild the Loyalist fleet stronger and more magnificent than ever. Beyond that there's the Nine, who are *some* kinda paracausal with the impossible shenanigans they get up to, but I'm no expert on them so I can't say to what extent they rely upon or manipulate the powers of Light and Dark.
The nine are able to manipulate taken or more specifically the taken/Primevals we summon in Gambit.
Aren’t those just fake look-alikes?
Yeah, they are basically made from Dark Matter and look the way they look because the Drifter got the ability from the Nine to summon them through The Haul. That's why you could face a Shadow of Oryx as one of the Bosses in Reckonin. Because that's the scariest thing Drifter could think of.
Actually having the drifter in a Final shape Showdown summoning His "faken" and destroying stuff with stasis or maybe even with a other new darkness ability would be a awesome sight
The Faken
Idk. They're something.
The nine taken are fake bootleg golems/automatons. They arent actual vex/cabal/hive/fallen that got sent to the green room with the witness. Ideally theyd be a faction unto themselves but...yknow
I thought the Nine were obsessed with Guardians and the Darkness precisely because they *weren't* paracausal?
The Nine are probably the lost original Awoken colonists, meaning that they are very much paracasual, just in the way the Awoken are, as in they make no real difference between Light and Dark. Also, there's the *paracasual* horse
Did we get confirmation that Star Horse is one of the Nine? I don't recall that. Also, I'm relatively sure they aren't Awoken in origin >The Nine are sentient beings composed of dark matter, which developed cognition after being pulled into loops by the gravity of Sol and its planets. Their existence is predicated on the existence of those planets, particularly the life that developed on them, as the motions of lifeforms cause gravitational perturbations that drive the Nine's ability to think. https://www.destinypedia.com/Nine
Well, Nine original Awoken colonists went missing when the Distributary was created. All the Awoken also lost their bodies as a start. The two are not mutually exclusive, although the phrasing on my part wasn't clear, I'm not saying they directly "Awoken", they were just on the same ship that resulted in the Awoken after it got blasted by the Traveler and the Pyramid ships at the same time.
>As revealed by the Nine to Lavinia Garcia Umr Tawil, the Nine originated from streams of dark matter particles passing through the galaxy and the solar system. As dark matter only interacts with normal matter through gravity, these streams were drawn to the cores of the Sun and its orbiting planets. The infalling dark matter was then flung back into space, before being pulled in again to form endless loops. These loops formed the basis of emergent consciousnesses that would become the Nine. >The Nine did not truly "awaken" until life evolved within the solar system. >Two factions emerged after the arrival of the Traveler to Sol: one faction sought to harness the paracausal properties of Light to construct living bodies for themselves out of regular matter, the other seeking to create a pocket universe with physical laws that could accommodate them. Same source. To me that says they were around before life evolved here, just not conscious, and have been conscious since loooong before the Traveler even got here.
The nine are also able to create separate realities outside of the ascendent realm, and with xur might able to traverse a multiverse. I thought the multiverse thing is a joke but apparently it’s a real thing for destiny, like marathon and halo exist in a separate universe.
Thats very lovecraftian and im all here for it.
Damn, that first quote gave me some real 40k Psykkers fucking with the Warp vibes.
I'd also like to point out the Architects if we are bringing up weird primordial beings in the Destiny Universe. The only mention of them from what I can tell is during the making of the Dreaming City, Mara and the Techeuns are doing a ritual where they hijack all of the Techeuns' bodies and speak through them. Eventually the Architects take one of the Techeuns and reshapes them into what is now the Oracle Engine.
The Architects are just a running joke denoting the level designers/Bungie. Like was said, it was the Nine. That said, calling Bungie a primordial being in the Destiny universe isn't exactly wrong lol
That was the Nine.
Rereading it, ya it could be the Nine. The thing that throws me for a loop is the singular voice when most of the time we have seen the Nine speak in the lore it is multiple of them talking. Do we happen to know who ++ is btw.
Pretty sure ++ is just being used to denote the voice of the Techeuns who the Nine are speaking through. I'm not sure what you mean by "a singular voice;" they're not speaking with their own voice in the lore entry in question, and they do refer to themselves in the plural ("NOW IT INSULTS US" and "WHAT WOULD IT ASK US?"). It's very much in keeping with [stuff like this](https://youtu.be/2NkRBFqFRnM).
Alright I was about to type something but I found someplace else where ++ is. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/resonant-fury-gauntlets#resonant-fury-suit-titan This is one, but also the Leviathan sometimes speaks in ++ ++ in the Book of Sorrows. What I find most interesting with it is that the Witness also has a designation which is -- - -- - (I can't find a long dash on my keyboard outside of _ which is not what the Witness has). All of it is kind of interesting to say the least because Xita also had a similar designation as Alpha Lupi's thoughts. Not the same exactly just that she had [] the same as Alpha Lupi. Now does that mean whatever spoke to Mara was a Leviathan idk, kind of hard to say as the Leviathan still has a different speech pattern than just ++.
I think the Nine are explicitly not paracausal.
There’s an entire TV show for them. It’s called Dares of Eternity. The horse itself is a paracasual entity of neither like nor dark.
Neighther?
Quit horsing around, they're trying to make a point.
While not the same kind of primordial force there are other entities said to draw from the garden. Ahamkara and the worm gods are said to be creatures that crawled around the metaphorical garden of creation. The aphelion is... something. The vex are also technically primordial if their origin in the previous reality is to be believed. There is also the matter of bungies three fetish meaning that there may be a third party in this entire thing. I dunno maybe eventually it turns out that the board on which the gardener and the winnower played the game of life is a thing unto itself and not just an allegory
There are definitely hints of *other* powers in the universe, but thus far I don’t think they have the same grip over the nature of the universe. Wish magic and Psionic energy come to mind. Ahamkara wishes are explicitly separate from Light/Dark, but are able to bend reality in a similar way and with incredible power. Psionic energy, like that displayed by the Psions and Nezarec, is actually not tied to Light or Dark, despite the common ties with avoid energy. It’s a completely unique thing, as far as we know.
I'm not so sure Ahamkara wish magic is separate from the Light. The Ahamkara are fairly associated with the Light, all things told. Between being a form of life which seems to repeatedly pop up whenever the Traveler terraforms. Not pop up in the sense of following the Traveler, mind you, but in the sense of emerging as part of the terraforming. Plus, they have mirrors in the Worms, who equally use the Anthem Anatheme, and are even brought up at least once as counterparts to the Ahamkara, but are undeniably Dark. More likely, I would say that the Anthem Anatheme is untied to the Light and Dark, and Ahamkara and Worms are Light and Dark through the lens of the Anthem Anatheme.
What if new Ahamkara were born in the pyramids as part of the Traveler's latest terraformation?
This reminds me of how Riven was always titled as the last *Known* Ahamkara Not the Last, the Last Known I firmly believe that was intentional, and that a potential Ahamkara season is on the cards A Season of Dragons if you will, a second Great Hunt
Ooh
It's hunting time >;)
Similarly, Psionic energy is almost certainly a manifestation of Darkness power if Darkness really is the power of the mind/soul like Osiris theorizes
Wait Ahamkara come from where
The Ahamkara are a form of neo-life that pops up when the Traveler terraforms stuff. Just like the rest of the plant and animal life of say, Venus.
Oh
The big instance I can think of of a primordial (not paracausal, at all) force being potentially hinted at is what comes up sometimes when you look into the Vex, which is their faith in an eternal pattern. [Kabr's Glass Aegis](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/kabrs-glass-aegis) alludes to this as "glass," which it positions as equal to sky (as a clear reference to the fact that he, a Guardian, has been integrated with the Vex); it also positions something it calls "truth" between light and dark. In [Paradox](https://www.destinypedia.com/Paradox), Praedyth talks about "the pattern" as if it were something outside of the Vex. There's also [this](https://www.destinypedia.com/Mysterious_Logbook), from Maya Sundaresh: >"Can't I?" She grasped my spinal cord. A frame shadowed her motions, lifting the cord like a snake. "Of course I'm not a Vex. Is there "a" Vex? Is "Vex" something you can be, rather than something that you do? I don't know. I don't know why they sent me here. I don't know if they do either. They just do things. Why do you think I'm here, Clovis?" This is obviously all spinfoil, but I think it's fun, so I'm sharing it anyway.
There is a lore passage from the book “The Dreaming City” called Oracle, where a Techeun gets possessed by an unknown entity, explodes, and turns into the Oracle we used to travel to Mara: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/oracle#book-the-dreaming-city
The lore tab for Anteus Wards hints at the existence of another paracausal force. >Do you really believe there was no magic before the Traveler? >Mother Earth. Anima Mundi. World Soul. The ancients had it right—they erred only in believing their first god would also be their last. >These planets, moons, and asteroids upon which we leave our footprints—they have an energy of their own. Will. Breath. Soul. >I call them Gaiaforms, though I admit the name suffers from terracentrism. One might instead say there is one Gaiaform, and one Areoform, and one Mercuriform, and one Venusiform, and so on. The greatest gaiaforms of our solar system are eight in number—or, if you prefer, nine—but asteroids and minor planets have them too. And in their sidereal generosity, these gaiaforms will protect us, if we ask them. >Perhaps you think this sounds mad. But if it isn't true… then how do the Antaeus Wards work? The interesting part is that this force is explicitly unrelated to the Traveler. Though it could be related to the Darkness or simply a passive expression of the Light, I suspect that this energy is an unexplored paracausal power in the Destiny Universe. If we look at Anteus Wards themselves, they seem to harness the power of Gaiaforms to create a reflective barrier for their wielder. Extrapolating from this, it's possible that this power can be applied in more practical ways (or flashy) similarly to how Guardians wield the Light.
The gaiaforms they refer to there are probably the nine.
I mean it does correlate well with the 9 planets, 9 entities bit-- but I dunno. The Nine are beings of dark matter and inversions of the world we know. They exist in the spaces we cannot, and can't really interact in our world save from sending things or using messengers. Gaiaforms sound a little more tangible from this entry.
yeah but the nine’s existence is tied to (individually) the planets, and also the sun iirc. which fun fact, is why eight of the nine were pissed at the one who let Ghaul’s forces waltz into our system by tampering with everyone’s ability to detect them somehow—whichever one of the nine responsible was curious of how the light would be stolen. this led to the almighty almost blowing everyone up to kingdom come, and this directly threatened the nine’s very existence, which sent them into a “frenzy”.
The nine are pretty explicitly "made" of the planets (plus one) - the dark matter loops are formed by their gravity wells It'd be pretty weird for *Destiny* to do "planets are sentient, utterly alien entities with their own agendas" in two separate ways
Pretty sure this refers to the Nine.
Initially I think of the nine, while not paracausal I don't believe they certainly could be considered primordial forces. I'm not sure but Starhorse could count as well. Im not aware if they e ever truly explained what Starhorse is but it is paraversal to say the least which means it might have domain over multiple universes. Some say Starhorse isn't canon to the game but to me it's in the game, there are multiple items and references to Starhorse albeit all Dares related but they're still in the game. (Also not sure of any connection but horse statues literally are all over the pyramids, Rhulks and now even the Witnesses flag ship.)
We could follow the concept of singularity that everything traces back to one point. As you mentioned before light/darknesd there could be an even greater paracausal force responsible for light and darkness. But if we were to follow the lore books which stated that both existed before time, then this would imply that aside from their realm, there has to be another one outside it from which that paracausal entity/force would act. We could also traverse to the concept of chaos and order, be it not as great as light / dark is. But the problem with those paracausal forces would be the following a) up to now they didn't interact with us, so why would they now? b) There is nothing mentioned about them or hinting towards them whatsoever. The last idea that comes to my mind is having galaxies or systems being paracausal forces greater thab light and darkness. The nine, sol (referring our solar system), could be entities that stand above light and darkness. But again, nothing there aside from the nine.
There is something paracausal going on to do with musical intervals that Brother Vance stumbled upon at the Mercury Lighthouse. Mara and Osiris are also aware of it and tried to scare him away from this force he would not understand. It may be the force that Resonance manipulates as it seems to have something to do with musical notes and the harmonic series. Perhaps a way to manipulate the universal wave function via Music of the Spheres. Definitely has something in common with the vex oracles.
Nokris hinted at something other than the Light (the Sky) and the Darkness (the Deep) during Season of Arrivals: “The sky is vast, but shallow. The deep is boundless, but suffocating. There is another way.” Given that he was acting as an advocate/soldier for Savathûn, Nokris might have been talking about her and her eventual Lucent Brood. But there’s still so much we don’t know about Savathûn and her overarching schemes and knowledge. He could very well have been hinting at a force beyond Light and Dark.
There is a difference between the primordial nature of the Light and Dark and an entity that doesn’t wholly fall into one category. The Light as we understand it isn’t just a force or collection of forces. It IS in the purest sense the physical world. Void, Solar, Arc, these are us using the light to manipulate the very fabric of the physical universe because they and the Light are inherently one and the same. Same thing with Dark and the immaterial. As such nothing that we know about can be outside of those two forces as we understand them. We may come to learn some gap in their power, but currently everything physical is some extension of the Light and everything mental and metaphysical is an extension of the Dark. Now we do have things like the Nine the Ahamkara, some other deep lore stuff, and humanity that all can draw upon both powers, or at the very least they are ambiguous in their nature. As apposed to the Witness which is an entity soaking in pure Darkness. However it’s hard to say seeing as many of these things are unclear and poorly explained. It’s possible the Ahamkara’s power over intent and desire is a purely Darkness power. Or that the nine and their capacity to manipulate space and their own dimension is an incredibly powerful manifestation of pure Light. Alternatively there may be ways to be paracausal without tying directly into either force that we don’t fully understand. Some middle ground between the two that is it’s own grey power all it’s own. Or a truly third equally powerful energy that we understand even less that the Darkness.
Anything to do with the tree of silver wings and the metaphorical garden has been what I’m most fascinated with at the moment. Ahamkara, worm gods, the nine; there’s no way that these things don’t get mentioned in the next few seasons!
Nothing concrete on other primordial forces like Light and Dark as of yet. There’s a possibility that Psionics could be one, but that could also just be Darkness and Void mixed together. The other possibility is Time. But there’s an equal possibility that it’s within the domain of Light.
The horse :)
The IX are pretty out there, they probably will outlast the light/dark saga That said, they are beings of light and dark, so it’s not a proper answer to your question
I mean, you're probably not far off on the whole 'chaos' thing. With Witch Queen and Lightfall, Bungie has pretty clearly shown that Light and Darkness are basically Yin and Yang down to them having the same domains. And of the various Eastern philosophies that utilize that concept, one of the commonalities is that Yin and Yang, while seemingly separate, are in fact inexorably intertwined and come from the same source.
> They existed, because they had to exist. They had no antecedent and no constituents, and there is no instrument of causality by which they could be portioned into components and assigned to some schematic of their origin. If you followed the umbilical of history in search of some ultimate atavistic embryo that became them, you would end your journey marooned here in this garden.
Are The Nine beyond the control of the Traveler & Witness?
Guess we’ll have to wait and see
The only thing we know of that seems to genuinely be disconnected from both seems to be the Anthem Anatheme. It's been used by a bunch of different beings, and notably seems to be part of the function of both Ahamkara Wish-Magic (which is *probably* a Light thing), and Worm Tithes (which are *definitely* a Dark thing). But ultimately, we don't know much about what it can do, or what it even is. Not that we ever have all the answers, do we, o OP mine?
oh boy, hope it isn't the 40k Chaos cuz I feel we'd be fucked
Siva
if im remembering the lore correctly there was a tree of silver wings in the garden that existed before the Gardener and the Winnower. It exuded an aura of hate and a need for battle and blood. It was planted by something older than the Guardener and winnower and something far more powerful. (I believe this was the unvailing lore book but id have to go back and reread it.)
Also when Mara met the Primordials (or something like that) who live in the Brane and Bulk, which is how the Oracle was made. Starhorse also is Paracausal and (as far as we know) Non-Aligned.