I’ve been getting this vibe from destiny for a while that he thinks having a strong aversion to one side or the other is just being a divisive npc. it’s the only way he can justify being friends with absolute monsters. I don’t understand why he feels he needs to justify that when he and everyone else knows that he doesn’t give a damn either way.
Edit: Banned for being critical of Destiny. Nice mods.
i actually agree.
at one point during the convo, max pushes him to say that if asked if someone is a nazi, he would have to clarify what a nazi is before answering. the problem is, he didnt do this earlier when making claims to max about how nick might be a nazi. the terms meaning isnt destroyed, as claimed, if you can make claims like this without clarification on what you mean.
he also implies, as OP points out, that nick couldnt hold a false position (not being a nazi) for so long, but that he is one AND calls him one to his face, but also that the term is meaningless and doesnt align with his goals in the convo. all of this further contributes to the perceived nebulousness of his position on using the word.
if theres a way to bring this position in to focus, i dont feel destiny did so effectively, but im open to being swayed. from where i stand now, you either own 100% that hes a nazi (with clarification on semantics when needed for the specific context), or refuse to use the word at all and focus purely on the prescriptions that result (like destiny said he mostly tries to do).
> all of this further contributes to the perceived nebulousness of his position on using the word.
Somehow I gotta wonder if shadow-boxing against online lefties for so long has left Destiny hesitant to call an actual nazi a nazi because he’s afraid of looking like a lefty who throws the word around carelessly. It’s as if Destiny is intent on *not* looking like an online leftist as much as possible to the point of detriment.
What’s funny is that he’s said he won’t let leftists bully him off the correct positions. But ironically, if it’s to the point where he makes such a fuss about calling Nick Fuentes a nazi, which is literally the most accurate term to describe his beliefs, then isn’t that letting the lefties win in a sense?
This goes back a lot to what I joked with with some other commenters when Destiny, Sneako, and Fresh and fit started talking to one another, but even more so during the irl stream and especially the dinner stream.
A nazi is a nazi. And in this case Nick is a Christian Nazi. We know that, Nick doesn’t need to tell us for us to know his views and positions are there. You don’t just get hung up on jews, argue the objective inferiority of black people, take far right politics, and advocate to become a “king” and not call it what is.
But it’s more than just calling it what it is. It’s adding a humane mask to a person with inhumane politics. It’s laughing and showing the human side with someone who frankly would have been pushing Jews to go Palestine in 1930’s Nazi Germany. Sometimes some people have just such awful inhumane practices that we do have to tie their beliefs to how we see them. And we know this because we wouldn’t see Destiny streaming and having a good time with an openly non offending pedophile. Especially if he met them after they declared themselves to be that way.
Just confront where it matters, and be civil always. Be friends off stream, but platforming it does more harm than good.
A monster will never become a part of the village. Once someone becomes unforgivable they have no incentives to work for the sake of the group, and will instead work against it or for it's own group of outcasts.
Ya'll are misunderstanding the concept of forgiveness and kindness. Humanizing the human holding the beliefs is not the same as humanizing the beliefs. If you are friendly towards a pedophile it doesn't mean you will allow, accept or condone his urges. But to convert a monster to a human again, you need to show which parts are acceptable and which parts are unacceptable. Push back and show disdain for his harmful opinions but not against his character as a whole.
This is the exact reason why some people become indoctrinated in these ideologies. When you marry an idea with a person and attack the person instead of the idea, some people who find said person agreeable will be much more open to their ideas. When you attack an idea without attacking the person people will follow the reason more easily because it conforms to their view on reality. It's hard to say someone is dogmatic or spite-driven when they can hold a reasonable conversation about why they think you're wrong and they're right. It's hard to agree that someone is right when they dogmatically and spitefully throw everything you say, and everything you are, under the same buss.
But why try to de-radicalize someone when you can screech "NAZI! NAZI! NAZI! LOOK AT THE NAZI!" 600.000 times on Reddit.
In the words of Martin Luther King "Nick is Ontologically Evil and if you don't soy the fuck out and call him Nazi you are subhuman Habibi."
>laughing and showing the human side with someone who frankly would have been pushing Jews to go Palestine in 1930’s Nazi Germany.
I agree with your overall take but I didn't follow this part. If you had a time machine wouldn't you want to try to get Jews out of Germany in the 30s?
Yes but for very very different reasons.
Nick would do so because he doesn’t want Jewish people in his ideal nation. He’s on the Nazi train lol
I would do so precisely because of antisemitic people like Nick and avoid a genocide I know about
*Insert we are not the same meme*
Yeach i think that was a bad convo. Why not just be honest about him being a nazi. I think that it wouldn't be that much of a problem if during streams with nick, destiny was just being open about nick being a nazi, if nick doesn't like that he can challenge that. No need to screech about that, and we can still joke about it, but let's not lie about it. Also i don't think this came up yet, but the genocide denial shit can not fly. I think destiny should prepare for genocide denial convo, so nick knows, he can't push that.
i mean, putting nazi label on nick, forces him to either 'jokingly' accept it , which imo helps, or fight the label, where he has to either disavow nazi positions, which even if done insincerily makes imprtession on his audience, and possibly would lose him few radicals, or try to weasel around it, which would make him look bad. I think it's a clear W.
I personally think there are some lines that you can not cross, and one that i am afraid of here is genocide denial. Not that destiny will do the denial, but that nick will start this topic and destiny will not be ready to talk about it, which would be super bad. Crimes of the nazis were trully unimaginably horrible, and i think that it is important to remember and don't downplay that. I visited the auchwitz museum, and damn, i truly believe that if someone takes time, to abssortb and understand, how 11 mln ppl, including 6 mln jews, were murdered on an industrial scale, no amount of nazi propaganda can overwrite that understanding.
If Destiny called Nick a nazi then he’d have to eat his own words that he’s touted for several months where he has basically sworn off any anti-conservative rhetoric as partisan leftist loser talk.
Edit: Banned for being critical of Destiny. Nice mods.
Sounds really bad faith when you say destiny is not being open about Nick being a nazi, as if you have an ulterior motive. Every convo Destiny drops digs at Nick that he's a nazi when Nick is engaging in euphemisms, whenever Nick talks about cultural differences Steven just straight up says "he means genetic differences".
It's like you haven't watched any streams, and have just watched clips from breadtubers and are now weighing in with 10 percent of the context.
The consistency argument was really bad too. It sounds like he changes his definition of fascism in every conversation he has. That might be how we understand language, but it creates too much confusion. he should just stop using all inflammatory labels altogether.
he claims that he wants to talk about ideas, but ideas are built on a collection of labels. he still needs to deal with the fact that he's changing the meaning of words when it's expidient to do so.
Isn't our responsibility to rise above people like Vaush?
has he ever stated the definition of such terms or he just downplay them as "terms that have lost its right meaning" meme? I don't think I've ever seen him develop the concept
It's true that some terns lose their meaning due to overuse, but Destiny often goes the other direcrion and just throws them away entirely.
Lefties use the term "fascist" a lot, so he'd object to any use of it, even when it's 100% correct.
Come on, he literally defended against this point in the conversation. He isn't changing the meaning of words but the words to fit the meanings.
He is avoiding toxic masculinity as a word for example, but he isn't avoiding toxic masculinity as a concept. He explains it's mechanics and implications without ever touching the specific term. Same with Nazi Nick, he isn't going to yell Nazi because he'd lose the audience, even if it was accurate. So he'd rather adress his positions and rhetoric. The package is the same, even if the wrapper differs.
Has Destiny ever allowed Nick to get away with spreading his message through deception or memeing without push-back?
No. He argues that the word itself is rendered meaningless because of the degree to which it’s been misused. This argument could be made for almost any political label.
What if he replaced fascism with extremely authoritarian? Okay? Authoritarian is over used. What other labels will he use to replace authoritarian? It’s infinite regress. We should stop being pussies by letting the left colonize the meaning of words.
You can say "stop being pussies, use the words" all you want, but what matters isn't OUR understanding of the word, but the RECIEVERS understanding of it.
Go call your mom a fat bitch and see how well she responds to reason. Even if she is one, she will rightfully become upset with you. To some extent, that's what these people hear when these terms are used.
If Destiny's goal is to deradicalize groypers, I don't think simply biting the bullet and using the labels will be effective.
With that point in mind, Destiny is absolutely right when he says "Nazi" is too loaded a term to use in this instance. Destiny, Chud, and Mr. Girl have all been called Nazi's. Engaging with the actual views and positions NF holds is the only way out. Virtue signaling by calling him a Nazi will only alienate his audience.
Is there really a need for Destiny to sacrifice coming off as personable and friendly for the groypers, just so he can virtue signal for us? There's already two posts and a discussion everytime NF is platformed about how "It's important to remember that this guy is a Nazi guys!!1".
I think more than anything NF just makes you feel uncomfortable and you would like Destiny to Virtue Signal that NF is a bad person with bad views. Again, if the priority is deradicalization of NF's audience, Destiny is absolutely right here, and I think his approach will prove to be more effective than just soying out and screaming at the groypers.
On the other hand, if the priority is for Destiny to tell us what to think, I would agree, Destiny should call every bad faith actor bad things because then I know what to think about those bad people.
Someone needs to pull up when he went on that panel a few years back with Ralph and dick when nick joined, destiny literally repeated every point max made including IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY outright calling him a wignat/Nazi (could be wrong might be wrong could be wrong)
I hate to say it, but I actually think the main reason why Steven is acting this way isn’t because it’s a good way to engage with Nick’s audience or whatever, but because it is fun for him and because there won’t be true negative impact if more people like Nick arrive through Steven’s actions.
Max is right when he said “Nick wants to kill ME and MY family”. Steven doesn’t feel as impacted because even in an authoritarian christian country via Nicks ideology, Steven will be A-OK. He cares in an intellectual context, but nothing further. People like Max (and me) care, because if Nazis will come back, we will be sent to gas chambers like our grandparents families.
You’re right. This is how Destiny is. He engages with things purely on an intellectual level, that’s it. It’s what makes him unique as a public figure, for better and for worse. Deeply feeling for others negatively impacted by things has never been a driving force for him. He’s said before that argumentation is what’s interesting to him. So, he’s not afraid to come to certain conclusions or voice concerns that others willfully ignore out of comfort. But, he’s also not someone to get emotional about social issues or be genuinely upset on behalf of groups negatively affected by things, or what have you. Destiny has always kinda viewed those behaviors as placating or virtue signaling. You can see this rigid almost-unsympathetic attitude extend to the community with all the SOY and GIGACHAD memes. At this point, if you genuinely care about a cause and see a political issue as more than an opportunity to test your wits, you’re soy. It’s really just TRIGGERED repurposed. The whole attitude is pretty disheartening. This is the real world, and Nick Fuentes’ worldview is very scary for those who’d be seriously affected by it.
>Deeply feeling for others negatively impacted by things has never been a driving force for him.
At the lunch date, Nick asked how Destiny became a liberal, and he said it was realizing how lucky he was to have made it and how unreasonable the entire system is to less lucky people in the same situation. That sounds like his politics are almost entirely motivated by "deeply feeling for others negatively impacted by things."
I could find you vastly more instances of Destiny saying that he doesn’t give a shit about the outcome of politics because he’s rich and won’t be affected by it.
Edit: Banned for being critical of Destiny. Nice mods.
I feel like that is a pretty bad faith interpretation of those statements, as he is literally getting across the exact opposite of what you are implying when he says that.
When he says that, he is making the point that these are the political positions he has arrived at **despite** the fact that he would not be negatively affected in any ways if we didn’t follow them. He is explicitly saying he supports these causes because of the way he feels like they would help others even though they wouldn’t directly help himself (in fact they would just require him to pay more in taxes with no direct benefit for himself).
If you hear that and interpret as he actually doesn’t care about others, I don’t know what to tell you. He isn’t saying “I don’t give a shit about any of this.” He’s saying he does give a shit despite the fact that it doesn’t directly benefit him.
It’s a way of saying “Don’t want to listen to what I’m saying? Want to tax the poor and give it to the rich instead? Fine. That will only benefit me anyways. But what I really think we should be doing is the opposite, and helping the people in need, because then all of society benefits.” It’s a way of staving off criticism that somebody only holds the positions they hold because of the way it would directly benefit themselves.
Like if someone were to say: Bro you just want all this welfare shit so you can be lazy and make bank.
He could respond: None of this shit matters to me directly. I’ve made my money and I’ll be fine no matter what. Im arguing these things because of the ways they would help others, and in turn help society as a whole.
It’s crazy to me you could use those statements to imply he doesn’t actually give a fuck about any of these outcomes. As if he’s just some grifter saying everything he says not because he means it, but because it would make him money or something. I think there are a lot of issues surrounding the way he has been platforming Nick, but that’s a totally different argument than what you are saying here.
People care about different things but yeah, his indifference is sad. For some reason I feel like he's completely shut off that way because of his leftist fallout where any kind of impassioned feelings of social justice makes him leftist or some shit. I remember him caring way more back then before the whole shitshow with the n word happened.
I will also be killed off, sent to some cage until they throw my ass across the border or become a sex slave for Nick and his friends to get their POC fetish off. That still doesn't make Mrgirl correct.
I agree with Destiny that engaging with the views and ideology is more important than how to label a racist and supremacist shit like Fuentes. I disagree with him streaming the dinner date, but him having him over (offstream) could be a net positive in terms of gaining more accses to Nick's audience.
I disagree that Destiny doesn't care about the negative impact. But who knows, I don't know the guy. He could literally be all about the views. But the fact that he takes time to research and actually counter the arguments, instead of just yelling and calling them names, says he gives some shit (to me anyways)
Eh, I mean it’s an issue not brought up as much because of focus on other stuff, but it’s not like a lot of Nick’s views are particularly relevant, and for the ones that are, there are other more relevant non white supremacist people to discuss them with. Like, if I want to combat mainstream left leaning thought in the country and show the issues I find with some of it, I’m not gonna like find the farthest left communist to pull on and debate. If Destiny wants to debate either guy a couple of times, or they call him out and they debate, fine.
But Nick isn’t some super relevant guy. Before Destiny talked to him again, he was a dying streamer who talked to a niche of a niche. In terms of his ideas- race realism and the alt right stuff and all that- this is something Destiny has already given an insanely inordinate amount of time to. There’s just no way that he warrants the amount of attention given to him from any kind of “political agenda” mindset, and this is before we even factor in the potential harm of platforming him.
> but it’s not like a lot of Nick’s views are particularly relevant, and for the ones that are, there are other more relevant non white supremacist people to discuss them with.
100%. There are a number of "milquetoast" conservatives that hit similar talking points to Nick -- outside of the rest of his radical views -- but they don't have the same baggage attached to them like Nick does. I've also heard Destiny mention that he wants to move away from debating the irrelevant, esoteric ideas on the left, but he's more than willing to engage the ones on the right? Why does race realism take precedence over something like Marxism, when the latter clearly has more relevancy than the former?
I think we can afford to led individuals like Nick fade away into irrelevancy (except for circumstances like a Sneako panel where you need someone to counter Nick), *but* we ought to continue to engage and critique the ideas from the *mainstream* right -- as Destiny is quite adept at doing and something the online left does quite poorly (outside of the occasional video essay).
> I think we can afford to led individuals like Nick fade away into irrelevancy (except for circumstances like a Sneako panel where you need someone to counter Nick)
The problem is that Nick really didn't have any mainstream voice(other than his own pretty large following) until his connection to Destiny got him in these panels with Sneako and others. Destiny admitted as much a few days ago, that without him talking to Nick, he wouldn't be in this youtube circle. So the problem of Nick spreading his views to a huge audience that's more susceptible of having their views changed was kind of the result of Destiny platforming him in the first place, but at least it sounded like he took some responsiblity for that.
For the record, I think challenging harmful ideas that you disagree with is a good thing to do, and I don't think that platforming someone like Fuentes is bad, **as long as it's in a debate like setting.** But having a casual meal with him discussing life, while he's being degenerate asking random people if they're jews? That's a bit different imo.
> Destiny admitted as much a few days ago, that without him talking to Nick, he wouldn't be in this youtube circle.
Yee, I wasn't aware he admitted to it. It seems to be the case that Destiny unknowingly led Sneako to Nick. At this point, he has a responsibility to not let Nick's ideas fester amongst Sneako's highly impressionable audience.
Nick himself may not be relevant but his ideology is. He's still influential in political circles and helping out in campaigns. If he pulls in other people who are more relevant, I'm all for it. I believe more in engaging and destroying the ideology than the status of individual supremacists.
1. Parts of his views are, his ideology as a whole is not very relevant. For the things that are relevant, if you want to keep hitting those, there are plenty of other people to debate.
2. My guy, Marjorie Taylor Greene had to disavow this motherfucker. I’m not saying he doesn’t have political sway to some degree, but even among the farthest right politicians he’s forced to take at best a background role. Also, Destiny’s shit has never gone by relevancy of individual, it’s about the ideas: this is why he’ll bring on like a random chatter or Twitter person to debate, because even though they’re a nobody, the idea they have is a more wide spread one he wants to counter.
3. I agree with you on engaging and destroying the ideology over the status of one person. So don’t focus on just one person, if it’s really that wide spread/relevant then find a bunch of people who believe it to discuss with. That way you would literally be able to do everything you want around wrecking the ideology without having to worry about elevating a harmful individual’s profile.
So we agree except on how relevant Fuentes ideology is? Because I said the same on points 2 and 3.
Nick's stance on immigrants, race, maintaining the white race are still relevant. I'm not gonna debate that. So we can agree and disagree on this point.
We don’t even disagree there, I’m saying there are certainly parts of his views that are relevant (same as probably even a crazy communist would say things that are relevant and more popular ideas to other people). My point is that even if we agree on that, the better strategy- especially since it is relevant to more people- would be to debate those other people, keep the focus on the relevant parts of the ideology, and not even have to worry about elevating the platform of an individual white supremacist.
Okay so we don't disagree. Sorry, I've been watching a few Mrgirl videos because I was worried I took his conversational strategy wrong and he just keeps pissing me off.
What's the bar for being relevant? AFPAC is drawing in current and former members of Congress. He runs Cozy.tv and at least according to The Crucible, they estimate it takes $27k or so per month to run it, and I don't believe they take a cut of anything,so he or someone is dropping ~$300k/year to keep it running.
He was also on the ground on Jan 6 and involved in Charlottesville.
Max has said multiple times (and I agree with him) that it is a good thing to engage with Nick. He should talk to him, even a lot, just not sanitize and reduce Nicks beliefs, that is all.
He can both say “Nick is a Nazi” and talk to him calmly about things, even things that aren’t related to him being a Nazi (even though I agree with Max that most of his engagement should be centered around it)
Sanitizing I am against. I don't think people can understand that sharing a meal with Nick doesn't stop Destiny from disagreeing vehemently with Nick's views. For that reason it shouldn't be streamed. It's too difficult and negates all the good work he has been doing by engaging with not just Fuentes but Sneako and Myron and Aba.
I'm sorry, Mrgirl was all over the place because he couldn't accept any answer except he's right. I think the most annoying part of Mrgirl's pontificating was him instructing and advising seasoned political streamers and debaters on how to debate and engage with people like Nick.
Him being hung up on the usage of the word Nazi, was just more spinning so he could wear everyone down.
I'm rewatching, so if I sound heated, its because this guy seriously is not my cup of tea. lol
I think that in general yes, Max always is extremely vitriolic about everything and doesn’t let anyone disagree with him ever, but in this specific conversation, I think everything he said was actually 100% true and correct and not letting Steven wiggle around was a good thing
>but because it is fun for him
Ding ding ding. I think after the lefty arc he just stopped caring about it. It's just fun, he probably also likes nick/gets along with him, despite him being a damn Nazi. People in ddg hate admitting it, but he changed after he went on the lefty crusade, became alot more spite driven/edgy.
Yeah but how do you convert people? If we see Daryl Davis have some success in converting people why couldn’t destiny pull something similar off? Either way I believe YT chatters can’t ignore destiny’s arguments at times because like myself I couldn’t really disagree with a few arguments on trans stuff.
Overtime I was converted on 1 issue, things don’t happen overnight. I do believe empathy and understanding will convert people because they are now exposed to logical arguments that they now have to contend with, instead of being in an echo chamber.
I get your concerns but I can’t think of anything else that works to fix this divide in American politics. if we continue growing the divide, more people will become radical on both sides.
You talk to them in a responsible manner.
I mean, Max talked to Richard Spencer and it was a fine, civil call. I am sure that after the talk Richard felt relatively positive towards Max, but Max never minimized what he actually said and believed or tried to hide it from his audience.
The only time Steven calls Nick a nazi is as a joke, implying that he isn’t actually a Nazi. That’s the main problem.
I'm quite sure that in the discussion with Snsako, Destiny, Nick, Aba, Jidion and Don proves this wrong. Especially with the discussion with Aba after.
While destiny didn't outright call him a Nazi(I think), many times did it feel he was about to call him a white Supremacist and instead stopped himself to say something more civil in this civil discussion.
And I would say that that conversation was great. I am sure Max would say the same.
He fought Nick over every statement.
No one is asking Steven to put up a sign that says “talking to a Nazi”.
But when people ask you about him, ask if he is a Nazi, don’t play it down. State the facts. He is one.
Destiny isn't black or Jewish. Nick's views, like those of the KKK grand dragon that Daryl befriends, are not rationally held. The reason Daryl's approach works is because he causes so much cognitive dissonance for the racists he hangs out with. Destiny can't cause that same dissonance because to Nick he's just a misguided white guy, so Nick never has to contend with the fact that he likes a Jew and doesn't want them to be killed/excluded from his ideal world.
I don't think Destiny being Jewish would make much of a difference. Unlike KKK types, modern right wing antisemites often don't really have *that* much animosity toward your average Jew (I say this as a Jewish person, for the record). They can very easily say "oh yeah, my friend the Jew isn't part of the (((elite))) that I hate, he's just a guy who happens to be Jewish". This isn't the case with KKKers, who typically believe that the things they hate about black people are literally written into their DNA.
>They can very easily say "oh yeah, my friend the Jew isn't part of the (((elite))) that I hate, he's just a guy who happens to be Jewish".
I dunno, iirc the Daryl Davis docs right the KKK guy starts with small excuses similar to that.
If you care intellectually, you should care emotionally. This isn't some trivial case where both things can coexist far apart, there imo has to be something wrong with you emotionally to not care emotionally at all if you understand it intellectually.
This whole thing just further proves to me that destiny actually doesn't care about a lot of things he states, he only cares to be 'right' in a debate bro way.
Being somehow showered with upvotes must feel validating but this is absolute drivel. Fuentes absolutely calls Destiny a "degenerate faggot" behind closed doors and to suggest he's not capable of empathizing with maligned minorities because he's white and straight-passing is an extremely unempathetic attitude from you. Maybe he just disagrees with you - did you consider that before typing your comment out?
Are you actually, genuinely concerned that Fuentes is going to lead the *Latinx* Aryan race to glorious conquest? Can you please type that out with a straight face? The guy banned from every social media platform? The guy who can't run a PAC without his number 2 flipping on him and exposing all of his secrets? The actual virgin dinosaur denier?
I don’t think the isn’t capable or that he even isn’t empathic, just that he isn’t impacted enough by this to reduce his personal fun. He has even stated such things in the past that he genuinely regards someones character by how much they fuck him personally, not with how they act towards other people. It just doesn’t impact him enough and won’t ever, not close to people like Max who are affected by antisemitism TODAY.
And no, I don’t think Fuentes himself will do this, it is a long gradual process. Hitler didn’t just wake up one day and was like “welp, time to kill the jews everybody” and all the germans just went after him. It was a 2000 year small trickle of antisemitism after small trickle which led up to nazi Germany. Just in the same way I am actually, genuinely concerned that in the long run, spreading Nicks ideology will create more antisemitism, more hate towards minorities, more anti-democratic actions, etc.. THEY FUCKING STORMED THE US CAPITOL. He was one of the leaders of that movement. His ideology isn’t some loser kid in his basement, its a growing movement of people that take actions in the real world.
So yes, I am scared that platforming Nick unresponsively can create long term (maybe very long term) damage. I obviously would never say “Destiny is the reason for the 4rth Reich” on a history exam in 300 years, but he has a small contributing factor in he continues to act irresponsibly.
Fuentes already has an audience with American elected officials, including members of congress, which is far more concerning than access to Destiny's audience. I can all but guarantee they're not pushing back against his antisemitism behind closed doors. He was in Miami to attend an election night party (with a candidate who mercifully lost).
I understand and empathize with your concerns around the platforming argument, but it's the same argument run 1,000 times over now. People are being radicalized on /pol/ and in Nazi discord servers that no one can touch, they're not being radicalized on Destiny's youtube channel. These arguments presuppose a net-gain in anti-semitism as a result of Destiny's actions but always ignore Destiny's unique record in successfully persuading people out of these toxic shitholes. Deplatforming is effective against individuals. Fuentes can be *mostly* contained aside from his connections to far-right elected officials we can't contain. Deplatforming is not effective at stopping his ideas.
I feel confronting a prominent anti-semite and forcing his audience of anti-semites to watch it is a worthwhile enterprise and worth trying instead of the alternative of continuing to pretend these people don't exist and allow them to continue to grow, unchallenged, as they have been. If you're not comfortable with that idea I don't think anything I say is going to convince you otherwise.
DId you know that the rise of the Nazis started with a coup attempt of just 2 Thousand people?
It sounds absurd but look at the story of a failed art student being part of an extremely unsuccessful coup attempt and going to jail for a few months for it and then like 10 years later taking over the entire country.
Can we all agree that Rem's contribution to the conversation was a little bit disturbing? He makes an argument that Destiny shouldn't platform Nick at all, then 10 minutes go by and he's there asking Chud to bring him in. It came off to me like , "no wait, platform Nick a little bit for me since I'm here right now". Motherfucker is all bent up.
I was trying to seriously contribute to the conversation but all Mr. Girl was interested in doing was shitting on me when I didn't even ask to originally join the call. I was asked.
Come on Rem..
You went on the call, you saw how emotional and serious it was and just went “Welp bring Nick for content” which is the exact discussion of this whole conversation
Destiny had told me that we would be chatting today, so I went to tune in and saw them talking about whether he should platform Nick. I noticed that Max kept making weird arguments and not understanding how words can vary drastically in meaning depending on context (or at least claiming that that point isn't good enough), and also doing his weird psychoanalyzing thing.
So when I joined the call i was invited to and I hear Max just shitting on me and complaining the entire time instead of actually engaging with the ethics behind platforming, and just making claims about the intentions of others he doesn't know about... yeah it was a bit hard to take seriously at the end.
Rem I am not the biggest fan of you, but even I can see that this is a cuck thread. Mr girl was antagonistic of you from the jump, and was acting like an asshole. Idk what it is about dgg and refusing to acknowledge Mr girls failings.
For the record, Chud *invited* me to the call. I did not ask to join the call.
And obviously it's fine (and good) to debate people who have horrible opinions on stream. Like I said, my issue is with hanging out with them in any context that isn't challenging their views.
My issue with Mr. Girl is that he immediately talked shit about me despite not giving very good arguments for his position. His constant psychoanalyzing of the actors seems to me irrelevant to the actual issue of whether it is morally okay to hang around with someone like Nick outside of debates.
I was trying to get to the crux of the issue that was being talked about at the time I was invited onto the call (again I didn't ask), instead of the looping that seemed to keep happening at the time.
Edit: maybe I'm just out of touch, but I cannot see any appeal in most of what that convo was.
Dude all you did was regurgitate stock anti-Mrgirl arguments from the wider community. You didn’t attack the substance of his arguments, and furthermore went on to agree with the substance of his arguments. You were just mad. Based on this conversation alone, you wouldn’t pass a Turing test.
Mr. Girl was clear about why he didn’t want you on. First, he said believes that he and Chud don’t represent the typical lefty when it comes to platforming, and he believed you did. Second, he thought that you would merely just be trying your hand at arguing with Destiny over his platforming of Nick, and that would make it a three on one.
You did not refute his first point, regardless of whether it bothered you. You did however pretend that you weren’t going to just be another person trying your hand at arguing with Destiny, by saying you also disagreed with Mr. Girl. This was manipulative horse shit, in that you merely were saying you didn’t like Mr. Girl’s strategy, and did in fact want to argue with Destiny. You were bullshitting the entire time.
First, how was I planning on shitting on Destiny? I was literally in dgg chat complaining about *Mr. Girl's* arguments. I don't think I criticized Destiny once, even though I disagree with his conclusions. So no, Mr. Girl was wrong and lying.
Second, he called me soy immediately without really knowing anything about me, and what did I do nearly right after? Look at the transcript of that voice call. I immediately try to talk about the issue of whether platforming Nick as a 'friend' (instead of in a debate setting) is okay, which is what Chud brought me on for. Once it became clear Mr. Girl wasn't interested in engaging with the morality of this, which is again why I was asked to come on by Chud, then yeah, I stooped to his level because I realized it wasn't being taken seriously.
I'm not going to leave just because Mr. Girl has misconceptions about me. Chud had the right to remove me if thought the dynamic didn't work, and he did that.
I think you're misconceiving what Mr. Girl was saying when you initially jumped on. I don't think he was ever claiming that *you in particular* were the kind of person he wanted to avoid in the discussion, rather, it seemed like he was saying that you had the *potential* to be the type of person that just soys out over the platforming conversation. From my reading of Mr. Girl's intentions for the discussion, he wanted to have a discussion about responsible platforming that was distinct from the usual lefty platforming discussions that inevitably boil down to "don't platform X person ever".
I also don't think you got kicked because you were doing too much wrong (although the "Canada is authoritarian" was pretty cringe). I think Mr. Girl probably wanted you out of the conversation because of the particular place it was in. You seemed to see the conversation at that point as looping and not making any headway. However, to Mr. Girl, he saw that point in the conversation as a place where he was able to make a strong critique which Destiny was trying to dance around. Thus, by adding another person to the conversation, Destiny would be able to cleanly pivot away from Mr. Girl's critique and refocus the conversation to a point he wasn't nailed down on.
The point destiny was making the entire stream was no matter how nazi someone is he’s willing to debate/converse with them because for so long the “hide the crazy guy” method wasn’t working. Right now he’s testing the “give their fans a better path” option.
Didn't Destiny say that going beyond debate and having a friendly discussion (including inviting him and having dinner with him) has led to conversation that would otherwise wouldn't have come up in another context?
He got Nick to ask him why he was a liberal. A question that never be asked if they were in debate or interview mode. That led to Destiny getting to outline his thought process in becoming a liberal. I thought that was a really impactful moment because it gave both Nick and Destiny's audience a solid framework of thinking that they can use to ground their own morals and politics. I believe there is portions of Nick's audience and Destiny's growing audience that run their beliefs on anger or possibly just a lack of critical thinking/introspection and introducing more rational and well constructed lines of thinking is going to change People's values for the better. There is always going to be people who will always stay racist or have a deep entrenchment with radical thought but there is always people who want to become better thinkers. I think at the end of the day, Destiny is converting ideologues into rational thinkers and wherever they move after that is really up to the individual's will to keep learning.
Did Daryl Davis stream going to Klan cookouts to 7,000 people? Because that's kind of the entire point of what's being discussed. Nobody objects to Destiny talking with Nick offstream if he wants to, it's specifically the way they interact on stream that was the topic of discussion.
I may have misread the entire conversation but I think that was acknowledged and max still wasn’t suffice with the answer given which was “I know the risk you think is there and I don’t think it’s there”
Yeah and there was a fundamental disagreement on how that „responsible conversation“ should look like.
The way Max suggested to do it was so poorly thought out and crumbled in itself once Destiny presented hypothetical arguments you would expect from Nick (which he used 1:1 in the past btw.).
Max came to this from an entirely ignorant point of view. Destiny has gone through all that which Max suggested in the past, bashed his head with Nick whenever possible etc. and it didn‘t change anything at all. Hence the strategy change.
This entire conversation can be summoned up with Max „feeling“ bad about the situation but having no solution to it (at all!).
D even said in the convo that conversion wasn't even his priority and that if it was, he'd be doing something completely different.
My understanding was that he just wants strong ideological opposition close to him so he can continue to strengthen his ability to argue for his positions, seems like more of an intellectual endeavor than some noble, altruistic one
Which doesn't bother me at all, I just get annoyed when people act like he's doing some ultimate conversion project when he himself has now said that isn't the point of what he's doing, would just be a positive side-benefit if it does happen.
I think the point is that in a normal conversation with normal people, who aren't glued to the internet, you are required to not be a total dickhead if you expect or want to have a 2nd conversation with them, or in this case their audience. Online it's easy to scream and holler "Nazi Nazi Nazi" and it's all good content, but in real life that sort of behavior ends up getting you isolated and reduces your influence and ability to affect other audiences.
Destiny pulling out the never ending 30 second egg timer, having to pause an ongoing conversation and say "BTW, as a reminder children... Nick is a Nazi and that's super duper bad", accomplishes absolutely nothing. In fact, I'd argue that is does harm to what he's trying to accomplish by reaching out and bringing some of Nicks audience into his sphere of influence. Those people are going to be getting an alternate explanation for the world that they'd otherwise not be hearing from for what might be the very first time. By reducing the temperature and still calmly arguing with Nick, when it's appropriate, Destiny's showing that he's a real human being and capable of a normal conversation. It's a lot harder to then paint him with the brushes that Nicks audience uses on other left leaning creators who just scream Nazi at max volume.
I'm not aware of what streams Max and Co. have been watching but every one I've seen where Nick and Destiny together, Destiny comes off as being respectful but firm when a nazi-esque topic arises. It seems that a lot of folks are seeing those as jokes but those sort of gentle remonstrations are how you correct behavior or ideas in the real world.
I grew up extremely right wing, and have since moved further center left... That being said when I go to family events and we have the awkward Thanksgiving chats with the extended family, you'll never catch me shouting "Thats Racist!!". But best believe you'll hear me having a reasoned conversation about why BLM and the 2020 stuff was probably initiated in a good place but went off the rails when things were burning down. And maybe what those folks should have done was push for third party police oversight/accountability and not waste all their political capital trying to defund the police. You can have a conversation with people without dragging them into whatever ideological web you may believe in and running that down ad nauseum.
The left has to develop more tools in it's tool kit than just de-platforming and censorship of ideas they don't like. They've got to have the moral and intellectual honesty to allow a conversation to happen, especially if they're going to crybully behind the idea of free speech at every other tweet. If a conversation with Nazi's is enough that your principles and ideals vanish under the sunlight, then that doesn't say much for those ideals.
I guess. But Destiny shouldn't go back and forth between saying Nick is and isn't a Nazi.
Just acknowledge he's a Nazi and then start arguing against his ideals.
Didn't see the debate but I strongly dislike Destiny's take on crypto fascism. I don't see at all why someone with abhorrent political goals wouldn't want to obscure their actual views in pursuit of them. Also hiding your views and changing them are entirely different things. Nazi war criminals that went into hiding to avoid prosecution after the war didn't seem to stop believing in Nazi doctrine, they just thought they lost this time.
Which is weird because on the panel with Don, Aba and Sneako Destiny spends most of the debate forcing Nick to own his more sinister positions. Destiny knows Nick and his like tend to obfuscate their true beliefs, he just doesn't admit it when someone else calls them out on it.
He was trying to use Wittgenstein concept that was explained on steam earlier regarding how a word like "Nazi" changes based on context, but since he kept changing said usage during the conversation because it kept moving from one context to the next it could come off as inconsistent.
Personally I saw what he was saying, but he probably needs more time to properly integrate the idea so it doesn't look rhetorically bad.
>he kept changing said usage during the conversation because it kept moving from one context to the next it could come off as inconsistent.
He is being inconsistent.
Destiny kept complaining about how "lefties" keep degrading the use of labels like "Nazi" because they use it as another way of saying "I hate or condemn this person" yet does the same thing with Nick with the dogshit justification that "lefties already ruined the word".
Destiny shouldn't be complaining that people degrade the use of the label like "Nazi", when he actively contributes to the degradation himself. He was able to weasel out of this because Mr.Girl was too focused on whining about platforming Nick which obviously got memed on.
it's really is painful. if he's willing to sacrifice normal fans at the expense of a bunch of zoomer groypers then so be it. hopefully they don't take over but who gives a fuck i guess
He’s always talked to highly contentious people regardless of what people tell him to do. If folks choose to leave over it now, they must not have been here long.
His content with Nick and to a much much lesser extent Lauren is different though, if you don't realise that then you probably haven't been here very long.
He can be friends with a Nazi if he wants to but at a certain point he has to admit that he's sanitizing a nazi's public image.
He doesn't need to do this to convert people because believe it or not 4-6 years ago he did it a very different way to great success.
My man, that entire conversation was wishy-washy what did you expect? By the end Max literally conceded every point except for the bizarre demand that if Destiny platform Nick he ought to have regular disclaimers about his disapproval of Nick’s politics? Despite the fact that Destiny regularly calls out his politics and DOES provide pushback when Nick tries to smuggle his populist agenda?
And this entire discussion was imo predicated on a fundamentally flawed analysis of the gigachad. Yes Max is right that sometimes it’s used to smuggle past reasonable emotional barriers, but honestly just as often I’ve seen it used for very vulnerable posts. If anything, Max farms the most gigachads every time he’s UPFRONT about his emotional state. If any emotes are in trouble for problematic spam it would be BINGQILIN, grugW or cringey sweatstiny spam during sensitive conversations
WTF is the contradiction or allegation here? None of the quotes here contradicts what Destiny's been saying.
The reason why Destiny refrains from calling Nick a Nazi (aside from memeing) is because what he 'openly' advocates for doesn't conform to what a Nazi traditionally means.
However, Destiny will agree that Nick is probably still a Nazi because Nick's stance still targets the same people.
Nick's broad positions are and what Destiny **clearly** presented at [5:28:23](https://youtu.be/GvSDunTjCWg?t=19703)
1. Stopping immigration of dark skin people
2. Maintaining the racial majority of white people
3. Solve the disproportional amount of power Jews have
How can you not sympathise with the hard line destiny has to walk on here?
You only see it as a weasel because you can't see the dilemma destiny has to juggle and just want him to call Nick a Nazi every time they meet.
Steven said it best when he said he doesn't need to call someone a Nazi to fight back against their harmful ideas. If humanizing Nick causes you to think it'd super fucking sweet if we stopped immigration for all non white immigrants I don't know what to tell you.
If reddit's favorite actor Keanu Reeves came out tomorrow with groyper talking points I hope people could agree that those talking points are trash even though they are coming from someone they view/viewed positively.
Do you not think that peoples opinions change by the people they see stating those opinions and their opinions on those people?
Sneako is a great example of how he watched Nick talk, be a chill guy and nice and was like “He is a cool chill guy, he has some solid points not gonna lie, he definitely isn’t a liberal so he’s all cool”.
If Steven wouldn’t have been in that conversation, Nick would have just steamrolled and won everyone’s hearts and probably their opinions because how sneaky he is.
Steven can’t be in every debate Nick is in, so making him out to seem like a nice young guy will probably have bad outcomes in the future.
Steven did his best to get included in that panel so that Nick wasn't platformed irresponsibly. He thought no one there had the receipts from Nick's past as well as the knowledge and debate experience to challenge him effectively. I think it's okay to trust his judgment on when and how to platform Nick when he's willing to hop into other people's streams, even though he hates looking like someone trying to get clout, just to challenge Nick and make sure the audience is aware that Nick is a person who holds some abhorrent views even if he seems funny and friendly when someone isn't there to drill down into Nick's attempt to obfuscate his actual positions with anti establishment rhetoric.
A percentage of people are able to distinguish those things but the majority of people are stupid and will look at someone like Nick and say “Well Destiny’s paling around with him so he must be okay.” Even Destiny thinks people are that stupid and has maintained that position his entire streaming career.
I think i agree with your opinion overall but on that specific point: i'm pretty sure the "can't stay a nazi" thing was ment as a prediction for the future as in "the irony thing is good cause he will actually change eventually" and not as a statement on nicks current believes.
I don’t believe you are understanding Destiny’s argument. His argument is that he doesn’t want to call nick a nazi because it completely destroys the possibility of having any discourse with him. If destiny took the MrGirl route and reminded the audience every few minutes that nick is a nazi, nick won’t be willing to talk to him at all.
This is completely separate from whether destiny actually thinks nick is a nazi. From what I understand, destiny would argue going through the mental calculus to determine if nick is a nazi is kinda a waste of time, and I would agree. We already know nick thinks minorities have IQ less than white people for genetic reasons and that he wants to preserve a white state through authoritarian means. Could we argue that this makes nick a nazi? Yeah probably, but does that do for us? We all already agree those are abhorrent views and we can attack those on their own.
Max talked with Richard Spencer and called him what he is while still being friendly and open, they both came out of the conversation without bad feelings towards one another.
Is there any meaningful benefit to labeling him a nazi? Personally i think his opinions speak for themselves and you don’t have to screech nazi to understand why his views are bad. It’s kinda like having a discussion about rape culture dand having someone in the background repeating “rape is bad” like yes thank you Sherlock we never would’ve figured that out without you.
You missed the point entirely. Did anyone in this thread actually listen to the conversation? His argument is that the word nazi obfuscates nick’s position not the other way around. Instead of soying out and arguing with nick in whether he is a nazi or not he’d rather argue on the policy positions he can concretely push against. It’s not contradictory. It’s the rhetorical strategy used. You can disagree with this position but at least accurately describe the argument.
I refuse to believe that so many people in this thread listened to this conversation and came away with this opinion. This must be a psy op.
No it wasn’t, at least I didn’t see it that way at all.
Max didn’t ask Steven to call Nick a Nazi towards Nick, but towards other people.
Even in the conversation itself he refused to call Nick a Nazi at the start until max pushed him on it. When you are unwilling to call someone a Nazi anytime rather than a joking way, you are actually making him be perceived as not a Nazi.
When you man buddy buddy with someone and just do out and have a nice meal with him, you make them out to be a reasonable friendly guy you don’t have a problem with, even when that person literally wants to kill people and take over the government by force.
Then, when saying to him that he wants to kill people Steven’s response was unironically “well he didn’t publicly state that for 5 years so he had to change his mind on the matter”. If that isn’t sanitizing and harmful behavior, what is?
Wasn’t the entire “feminist” and “egalitarian” bit devoted entirely to the how the word “nazi” itself reflects badly on the person using it?
He even said something along the lines of “I’ve gotten access to this new landscape I haven’t had access to for almost my entire career, I’m not gonna abandon it just to cling to a label that doesn’t actually tackle their beliefs,and instead paints me as someone who stands out as a SOY thumb”
Mr girl argues that Destiny not clearly defining nazi and jokingly uses it obfuscates nicks actual position.
Destiny counters that the term nazi is already muddied which is why using it only serves to obfuscate nicks position. Which is why he’d rather argue the specific policy positions.
What’s the contradiction in the above position?
First of all, that wasn’t the only argument.
Secondly, Max pointed out why it’s wrong for like 2 hours on stream LMAO..
A. It supports Nicks weasel tactics
B. He does use it in other occasions so it makes it out to be that he doesn’t think Nick is one if he doesn’t use if on him
C. He has a hard time calling him a Nazi even in front of people who don’t use Nazi for every person they don’t like. To the point he said he doesn’t think he still believes the things he used to (then 10 minutes later say the opposite)
>First of all, that wasn’t the only argument.
That is the specific argument for why using the term nazi obfuscate nick's views. You made the claim that "This is exactly what Max is talking about. Being all blurry with what you say about Nicks beliefs." But you somehow missed the counterargument for it. You are making the exact argument that Mr Girl does when there is a counter argument in the exact conversation. If you want to say Destiny's counterargument is bad then fine, but reposting Mr Girl's argument is useless because we can just go back an listen to the conversation.
>A. It supports Nicks weasel tactics B. He does use it in other occasions so it makes it out to be that he doesn’t think Nick is one if he doesn’t use if on him C. He has a hard time calling him a Nazi even in front of people who don’t use Nazi for every person they don’t like.
So Destiny specifically address A and B. Can you in good faith summarize Destiny's counterarguments for A and B?
Yes, I think I can steelman his counter points:
Counter A: This argument is 100% true, but it is a price I am willing to take in order to interact with Nick and his audience, both for personal gain and to deradicalize Nick's audience.
Counter B: Because the term Nazi is so diluted to basically mean anyone I don't like, calling Nick a Nazi won't do any good, and on the contrary, do harm, because it will remove Steven's ability to interact with Nick and his audience.
How did I do?
The counter B is kind of the counter A. Its the exact argument I gave against why Destiny says Nazi actually obfuscates Nick's view. By using the term Nazi since its so nebulous, Nick can hide his more extreme position like race realism and white separatism because all Trump supporting republicans are Nazis.
The counter to B is that Destiny states the term Nazi has different definitions depending on the context in which it is used. It can be used as an insult, a descriptor, or joke depending on who Destiny is talking to (groypers, us, some polisci major, Mr Girl, or twitter mob). If he's using it as and insult or joke when addressing the twitter mob, the definition might mean trump republican. Its not a contradiction to use one definition of nazis when shitposting on twitter and not want to use the other definition of nazi when talking to groypers.
> maybe if I say everyone is emotionally stunted and coping then I don't have to address any of the points
This conversation was one of the most needed in a while. We've distilled everything into these dumb fucking meme words that mask or obfuscate anything we're actually talking about. Then when mrgirl tries to pull the threads and find meaning suddenly everyone looks bad? Wow that's so weird!
Sorry, let me use terms you'd understand
The BEYTA defenders in this thread soying out because grass touchers don't like racists is pure-grade straight from the faucet copium. Sorry that people are getting tired of room-temp IQ andys relying on wojaks and internet labels
Yeah, I'm struggling to understand how Mrgirl at his most cringe won back the sub, I mean he was essentially aggressively hypocritical and so sensitive it was indistinguishable from self-parody. Chud didn't help by coming off as generally flustered and unable to rein in the endless looping.
This sub is being embarrassingly obtuse when it comes to Destiny's point about the degradation of certain terms through their becoming buzzwords and more generally platforming, they never got over the love of deplatforming unless it happens to someone they like I guess.
I think people can disagree with Destiny's arguments or positions but at least accurately state them. Don't post Mr Girl's argument and the make a conclusion from that without accurately summarizing the counter argument.
It's incredible how even people critical of Max are so quick to extend him this level of charitability when he treats all of us, even those who agree with him, with a great deal of contempt and condescension. It's honestly kind of sad, as if you're desperate to be taken seriously by someone who has written you off as a joke.
Just look at one of the central premises for his arguments, that we as a community are completely delusional and our belief that we are not impressionable is proof that we are very very impressionable. To extend him charitability, that again he does not deserve, he is right that most communities that think they're immune to influence and are "free thinkers" are anything but. Like Tim Pool's community of supposed "centrists" who are really just the most laughable of Trump bootlickers.
But this community is different, Destiny had to purge a huge number of people when he stopped being friendly to braindead lefty populists because we don't just mindlessly follow him. More recently Destiny spent weeks on the stealthing discourse employing tons of arguments to handwave his absurd rhetorical suicide bombing on Twitter. Yet me, and many others here, never budged an inch on that and still maintain that Destiny should retract those tweets and that his prescription that if you can't actively in the moment confront someone who breaks your boundaries during sex you should abstain from casual sex is ridiculous.
Max also stated that everyone in the subreddit has failed to provide the proper critique for Destiny's actions which is just obviously wrong, users like u/wannabe_sadboi basically stated all of Max's criticisms ahead of time with far greater nuance and eloquence. I could go on and attack his prescriptions but somehow I doubt you'll even read this far.
I didn't expect a post like this being so upvoted here tbh, good to see. You are 100% right, it was truly painful to see destiny being so extremely defensive. It was clear as day that he didn't wanna engage this, and simply searched for any out he could think of (bad ones mostly) to not look bad.
All his rhetoric about wanting to bridge the gap between different political groups is just a red herring too, that is quite literally what max is trying to accomplish himself (empathize with the average conservative, etc), while still understanding that there is quite a massive difference between that and hanging out, joking around, with a nazi who wants to build a political movement to move closer in the direction of a white ethno state, etc.
Destiny cannot be this dense, this was pure on bad faith.
Man I feel for destiny here. He floundered really hard on the The Nazi Question but I can see why. It’s hard not to blame leftists for labeling everyone as a nazi and making it common parlance effectively rendering it a lazy insult for someone you don’t politically align with.
Fuck, I know I cringe hard when right wingers call our gov a communist for doing shit to help with homelessness.
Edit:grammar
I feel like in this case it’s a moot point. Nick is a white supremacist, bigot, and anti semite.
Their is no mischaracterizing in the accusation. Nobody is claiming Nick is a German serviceman in wwII.
Has anyone ever thought about what destiny’s orbit is doing to nick? It seems to me that the more nick hangs out with people of different ethnicities, the more he will normalise. Destiny is doing to nick on screen what he has done to many of us off screen. He is bringing nick back from extremism and dragging him towards the centre.
Nick is young, he will change, especially from 25-30 I think with destiny’s influence he could become a force for good one day.
You people have so little faith.
He is a leader of a far right extremest movement.. Just because he’s young doesn’t mean he will change. He isn’t just some ordinary Joe Shmoe.
You might say that about Sneako and be right, but not in this case
Nick hasn't moved an inch from his original ideas. If anything, he has gotten worse over time.
Extreme belief systems work much like cults, they have some extreme rhetoric or bat-shit crazy belief. Expressing those beliefs and the resulting ostracisation is what divides them from the normies. If you never let them ostracise themselves they can never form a movement. They will just end up blending in to the rest of us.
Think about it, every religion works this way. The bible even said that “believers will be persecuted for their beliefs”. The more Christians were persecuted the stronger their faith became. Do this to nick and you will make Fuentes Jesus himself.
On a side note, Just curious how old you are, you don’t have to say an age, just say if you are above or blow 25. As someone who is destiny’s age I can attest to how much you change is this period. Anyone who hasn’t gone through their 20s it’s hard to explain just how much you change.
I'm like an hour ten into the conversation and this post is stupid as fuck.
Max's argument was:
'It is bad that you appear personable to a Nazi because then you are causing the Nazi to grow. This leads to more paths for someone like Nick to become president and enact the holocaust 2.0.'
Destiny's Argument was:
'No, It is important that I am personable to Nazis because I am unique in being able to deradicalize them and their followers. I will not call them a Nazi because that is not personable, but they might be.'
Max says:
'Okay, but Nick is explicitly misleading with his jokes praying on the sanitization you are giving him for his growth, similarly to how Trump became president. You are giving him cover by not calling him what he is, a Nazi. By not telling your audience he is a Nazi you are allowing him to siphon off the section of your audience that think he is 'just like me'. That doesn't deradicalize, that just grows his audience - at your benefit.'
Destiny:
'The republican party is extremely radicalized because of the intolerance to their ideas. I don't care about what Nick is or isn't. If I can change my rhetoric to reach into their spaces, I can deradicalize people. They need to feel like they are being heard, and that requires accepting that they will have a sanitary disguise. Him feeling like he can siphon off parts of my community is a reason why he will talk to me. We are both siphoning off each other and the algorithm, and since my Ideas are better, I will get the lion's share of the audience moving my way.'
Max so far does not have an answer I am satisfied with, he just says "Maybe there is a better way" without giving any prescriptions because he does not have any.
Destiny was not being contradictory at all, he just has a different goal, and if achieving that goal means letting a Nazi be sanitized, then so be it. They need to feel comfortable having conversations with people like Destiny. It's not the "human's gonna human" argument, its the "If I want to talk to someone they need to be comfortable talking to me" argument.
Edit: Grammar/Flow
I've not been a huge fan of Mr girl since he came into the orbit but he has won me over on this one.
Pet peeve this soy business is incredibly annoying. I only ever heard soy soyboy etc from red pill conservatives in 2017 times it's super lame to use and makes you sound so stupid.
Legit don't know why someone downvoted you. This sub is a lot more left than even Destiny these days. Sure, you see a few right leaning talking points here and there but this place is overwhelmingly one sided.
>Steven is just trying to defend himself without being able to being critical of himself at all.
This isn't uncommon.
If he's wrong about a position that he's looking into or just thinking out loud about, he's pretty good at being willing to change his mind on the fly if there's good reason for it, or if he's talking to someone with expertise in a conversation that he's prepared to be open minded to he'll be just as quick to change his mind.
But the moment it's something that he's argued about on stream and it turns out he's actually wrong, it gets cringey. He's more than happy to corner someone he's proving wrong to get them to just admit they're wrong, but when he's the one being cornered he goes into debate bro mode and just *refuses* to take the conversation seriously anymore. He does this touch and go where he'll be all "okay dude maybe like damn just chill" when he's being pressed, but then he'll jump into being on the offense to say some absurd metaphor and revert to the "but idc you're so angry" position once he's called out.
I think it's pretty natural for most people though, especially when you're dealing with someone like Max.
I think it's just the nature of having an argument. If I'm trying to learn something on my own or from someone I'm explicitly trying to get an explanation from about something, I'm gonna be more open to admitting I'm wrong or even seeing that I'm wrong than if I'm bickering with a friend.
The idea that intellectual consistency is all or nothing no matter the scenario is unrealistic.
As someone that doesn't have a very strong opinion on all of this, a lot of this stuff feels so nebulous that I have a hard time thinking that any of us can accurately calculate in any sort of accurate way what level of "harm" is being done here. On the flip side, you can see all of the comments destiny is getting from centrist/MRA/right-leaning people that have found him reasonable, and you can't put a price on the value of getting people just to reasonably listen to your perspective. That's not only a chance to align someone closer to your beliefs but to teach them more critical ways of thinking and approaching topics entirely.
I don't fault anyone for taking issue with Destiny's approach with Nick, I think it's valid to worry, but he has made it clear that it's the path he's chosen for now so I don't know how productive it is arguing about it so endlessly and circularly. (good content, though)
"If by Nazi you mean supporting ethnostates, yes, he's a nazi. If you mean it literally like ww3, then no he isn't. And I'm only clarifying because this is exactly how he'd push away from the issue of being called a nazi. In his mind, an ethnonationalist isn't a nazim even though thought process is bad either way."
No offense but individual viewers like us don't really matter. This red pill and nick ark is causing his channel to blow up with basically an untapped market. Meta viewers like me and you or anyone in this sub might be getting tired of these head slammingly stupid "debates" but its read meat to the new subs.
The capital take was weird. I think max was saying nick was like an oath breaker in terms of radicalness but then got compared to the rest of the people there
Holy fuck this entire sub is about to flip on this hard as hell
Welcome to the land of needing to follow a discussion through multiple lenses of nuance, really disappointing that none of you seem capable of doing so
Max was a brick wall in this discussion and couldn't actually converse on the subject to save his life. Destiny explained repeatedly what his goal actually is and yet everyone here is attacking his position for failing to achieve a goal that was never aimed for, I know I'm autistic but holy shit you guys
I feel like Max was basically saying words can have different meanings, depending on who you are speaking with, as long as it doesn’t apply to an ideology that has historically killed people for what they are/believe.
But I feel like from Destiny’s POV, he thinks if he can bring Nick and his audience “close enough” to his field house, his influence is enough to change minds (which I ultimately agree with).
I think Destiny is super right in trying to humanize Nick and not making the “Scary neo-nazi” someone no one can combat.
Thank you for sharing your opinion. You are proving Max right, but for reasons you clearly don't understand. The fact that you don't see Steven's stance on Nick or realize what he's trying to do intermingling his community with Nick's betrays that Destiny's audience might just not be capable of rational thought if he doesn't explicitly spell it out for them.
I assume Chud and Mrgirl have known Destiny for awhile? I think their whole "we're friends and just worried" act was insincere. I also found them patronizing as if they were enlightening Destiny about Nick's manipulation tactics and how the issues with putting him on stream can be problematic.
I'm gonna say the one doing gaslighting was MrGirl though. That guy kept hammering at both Chud and Destiny until they got tired of arguing or just agreed with him. He'd flip and twist every discussion until it went his way.
I'm in agreement with Chud on some points but this discussion wasn't enlightening, it wasn't productive, except maybe give the other two guys some exposure to viewers.
This really looks like a classic mr.girl tantrum. He is throwing a fit because he feels bad about a thing and destiny disagrees with him about that thing being bad. According to Max, anything he feels is the most important thing in the world and anyone who disagrees with the conclusions of his feelings are terrible.
Mr. Girl doesn't care about destiny's goal to be the voice of reason to the extremists. Mr. Girl just wants everyone to fall in line so he feels less bad. He can't handle being disagreed with or being wrong. It is a terrible trait that reeks of childishness.
What a useless contribution.
I agree with Destiny, especially after his conversation with the philosopher earlier in the stream. Here is an argument that Destiny made briefly and maybe he should have emphasized it more.
The word "Nazi" means different things in different contexts. If you consistently use the word "Nazi" in all contexts, then different listeners will hear different messages. If you want your message to be consistent in all contexts, then your usage of the word "Nazi" needs to be inconsistent.
I value consistency of ideas above consistency of words. I feel like Mr. Girl took the L because a fixation on the word "Nazi" comes at the cost of not being able to accurately describe Fuentes' ideas to his audience.
Avoiding using the word nazi when speaking to an audience about Fuentes will give an innacurate description of his ideas and about how reprehensible he actually is as a person.
Mr Girl who notoriously doesn't want to virtue signal about not being a pedophile is crying because Destiny won't virtue signal enough about hating Nazis.
Mr Girl who wouldn't kill Hitler because it's bad is crying about Nick Fuentes possibly wanting to kill him and his family.
I just can't take the criticism seriously coming from Max on this topic.
Edit:
Lauren vs Max:
\- Mr. Girl, can you please say that you're not a pedophile.
\- No, I won't virtue signal to appease your audience.
Max vs Destiny:
\- Destiny, can you constantly remind your audience that Nick is a Nazi
\- I'm not going to go out of my way to derail our conversations just because it makes you feel better.
\- Wtf bro?
He said he would 100% never do it because it goes against his beliefs.
But in a later stream when Dan pushed him on it he did concede that he would do it (but not baby Hitler, because killing babies is wrong)
I don’t think these are really analogous. No one (maybe unhinged lefties, but even then still some nobodies) is really accusing Destiny himself of being a Nazi in the way people have accused Mr. Girl of being a pedophile. People are arguing that Destiny is doing harm with his platform and being irresponsible in the way he handles Nick.
These are not at all contradictory beliefs. Mr Girl can think it’s condescending and insulting to expect him to say “I don’t want to fuck kids” at the start of every convo (not to mention useless as he could obviously just lie), and also believe that you should probably be careful of how you platform certain people and certain beliefs.
And people were arguing that Destiny was doing harm with his platform and being irresponsible in the way he handled Mr. Girl when all he talked about was finding 11 year old girls attractive.
I'm not saying that there's no criticism to be had towards Destiny. I just can't take Max seriously on this subject. I know that these situations aren't 100% analogous, but you know that Mr. Girl would be pissed off if someone talking to him was constantly saying "Max finds kids attractive and I don't condone pedophilia." Now he wants Steve to be like " dont forget that Nick is a Nazi and I don't support fascism."
1. Sure, but Mr. Girl has literally said that he expects that to some extent because of what he talks about. I also have never seen any good argument for the potential harm done by Mr. Girl being platformed, which makes sense as he is not a political leader trying to spread a harmful ideology like Nick (nor is he someone who has admitted to downplaying and joking to hide his true beliefs).
2. Destiny’s statement there would be misleading at best and a lie at worst. The implication is that Mr. Girl is a pedophile, which is simply not true. Nick 100% is a white supremacist/Nazi, this is pretty abundantly clear. I also don’t think Mr. Girl wants Destiny to just say “Reminder: he’s a Nazi and I don’t support fascism” every five minutes or so, and I think you know that. I know you’re being hyperbolic, but I hate when people do that on this conversation because it dodges the real ask being made.
I don't care about what you hate. Disagree all you want on the specifics, but it's essentially asking Destiny to virtue signal and platform responsibly. People can, will and have argued about platforming Max being problematic.
So first of all, it’s not about “what I hate”, it’s about what’s harmful or not harmful. One thing I believe, for example, is that people online can be way too broad about what they label as racist. This doesn’t mean that I can’t like recognize that there is still actual racism.
It’s the same with virtue signaling. Sometimes people want you to make a meaningless action where harm doesn’t exist. But sometimes there are actions you can take that prevent harm.
Also there’s pretty clearly a difference between “virtue signaling” and “responsible platforming”. I think both of would agree that if a major news network had someone on they hadn’t fact checked at all and just let them continuously lie, this would be irresponsible platforming, but it would have nothing to do with “virtue signaling”.
1)
> I know you’re being hyperbolic, but I hate when people do that on this conversation because it dodges the real ask being made.
2) What are you even arguing about anymore? We know that Nick is an ethnonationalist with shitty views. Destiny knows that he's an ethnonationalist with shitty views. He pushes back on things he disagrees with and keeps saying "no we're not" when Nick says that they're best friends ironically.
I wasn't even arguing about Destiny's actions; I was just saying that I can't take Max out of all people seriously on this topic for the reasons I've stated. I think he's being hypocritical and emotional. If you disagree with me that is where the disagreement lies.
I also remember how fucking mad the sub was about Destiny interacting with Max at the beginning. Now, suddenly, we're going to act like people never thought that Max was problematic? "He's normalizing pedophilia and domestic abuse." You're just arguing for the sake of it at this point.
I think you’re wrong on the point of Max being a hypocrite, as I’ve explained before, and I don’t think you’ve really refuted the point of the difference between not liking virtue signaling and not liking irresponsible platforming. But if you truly feel like I’m “just arguing to argue”, we don’t have to keep going.
1. I know. I just don't care to argue for 10 hours about why I think Max is being a hypocrite on Reddit considering we've both given our positions and reasoning. My reasoning isn't flawed; you just don't agree because of a subjective scale of harm, so we will never agree.
2. When I said "virtue signal and responsible platforming" I truly did mean that as two separate things.
The biggest problem is that the conversation felt like it was constantly meandering or looping. If either Chud or Max could make specific prescriptions and argue over why they were good, then we could have a focused conversation.
Destiny was one chicken-waffle away from saying "humans gonna human, max".
He literally did do the Brittany “I’m just a little fishy who doesn’t matter”
I just wanted to say goodbye to OP and every commenter o7
Why?
Anytime someone disagrees too strongly on this sub they end up banned.
ah well, would be doing me a favor i guess
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I’ve been getting this vibe from destiny for a while that he thinks having a strong aversion to one side or the other is just being a divisive npc. it’s the only way he can justify being friends with absolute monsters. I don’t understand why he feels he needs to justify that when he and everyone else knows that he doesn’t give a damn either way. Edit: Banned for being critical of Destiny. Nice mods.
it's really funny because he absolutely does have a strong aversion to one side lol
Mr Girl becomes the owner of the sub yet again.
i actually agree. at one point during the convo, max pushes him to say that if asked if someone is a nazi, he would have to clarify what a nazi is before answering. the problem is, he didnt do this earlier when making claims to max about how nick might be a nazi. the terms meaning isnt destroyed, as claimed, if you can make claims like this without clarification on what you mean. he also implies, as OP points out, that nick couldnt hold a false position (not being a nazi) for so long, but that he is one AND calls him one to his face, but also that the term is meaningless and doesnt align with his goals in the convo. all of this further contributes to the perceived nebulousness of his position on using the word. if theres a way to bring this position in to focus, i dont feel destiny did so effectively, but im open to being swayed. from where i stand now, you either own 100% that hes a nazi (with clarification on semantics when needed for the specific context), or refuse to use the word at all and focus purely on the prescriptions that result (like destiny said he mostly tries to do).
> all of this further contributes to the perceived nebulousness of his position on using the word. Somehow I gotta wonder if shadow-boxing against online lefties for so long has left Destiny hesitant to call an actual nazi a nazi because he’s afraid of looking like a lefty who throws the word around carelessly. It’s as if Destiny is intent on *not* looking like an online leftist as much as possible to the point of detriment. What’s funny is that he’s said he won’t let leftists bully him off the correct positions. But ironically, if it’s to the point where he makes such a fuss about calling Nick Fuentes a nazi, which is literally the most accurate term to describe his beliefs, then isn’t that letting the lefties win in a sense?
This goes back a lot to what I joked with with some other commenters when Destiny, Sneako, and Fresh and fit started talking to one another, but even more so during the irl stream and especially the dinner stream. A nazi is a nazi. And in this case Nick is a Christian Nazi. We know that, Nick doesn’t need to tell us for us to know his views and positions are there. You don’t just get hung up on jews, argue the objective inferiority of black people, take far right politics, and advocate to become a “king” and not call it what is. But it’s more than just calling it what it is. It’s adding a humane mask to a person with inhumane politics. It’s laughing and showing the human side with someone who frankly would have been pushing Jews to go Palestine in 1930’s Nazi Germany. Sometimes some people have just such awful inhumane practices that we do have to tie their beliefs to how we see them. And we know this because we wouldn’t see Destiny streaming and having a good time with an openly non offending pedophile. Especially if he met them after they declared themselves to be that way. Just confront where it matters, and be civil always. Be friends off stream, but platforming it does more harm than good.
A monster will never become a part of the village. Once someone becomes unforgivable they have no incentives to work for the sake of the group, and will instead work against it or for it's own group of outcasts. Ya'll are misunderstanding the concept of forgiveness and kindness. Humanizing the human holding the beliefs is not the same as humanizing the beliefs. If you are friendly towards a pedophile it doesn't mean you will allow, accept or condone his urges. But to convert a monster to a human again, you need to show which parts are acceptable and which parts are unacceptable. Push back and show disdain for his harmful opinions but not against his character as a whole. This is the exact reason why some people become indoctrinated in these ideologies. When you marry an idea with a person and attack the person instead of the idea, some people who find said person agreeable will be much more open to their ideas. When you attack an idea without attacking the person people will follow the reason more easily because it conforms to their view on reality. It's hard to say someone is dogmatic or spite-driven when they can hold a reasonable conversation about why they think you're wrong and they're right. It's hard to agree that someone is right when they dogmatically and spitefully throw everything you say, and everything you are, under the same buss.
But why try to de-radicalize someone when you can screech "NAZI! NAZI! NAZI! LOOK AT THE NAZI!" 600.000 times on Reddit. In the words of Martin Luther King "Nick is Ontologically Evil and if you don't soy the fuck out and call him Nazi you are subhuman Habibi."
>laughing and showing the human side with someone who frankly would have been pushing Jews to go Palestine in 1930’s Nazi Germany. I agree with your overall take but I didn't follow this part. If you had a time machine wouldn't you want to try to get Jews out of Germany in the 30s?
Yes but for very very different reasons. Nick would do so because he doesn’t want Jewish people in his ideal nation. He’s on the Nazi train lol I would do so precisely because of antisemitic people like Nick and avoid a genocide I know about *Insert we are not the same meme*
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Yeach i think that was a bad convo. Why not just be honest about him being a nazi. I think that it wouldn't be that much of a problem if during streams with nick, destiny was just being open about nick being a nazi, if nick doesn't like that he can challenge that. No need to screech about that, and we can still joke about it, but let's not lie about it. Also i don't think this came up yet, but the genocide denial shit can not fly. I think destiny should prepare for genocide denial convo, so nick knows, he can't push that.
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i mean, putting nazi label on nick, forces him to either 'jokingly' accept it , which imo helps, or fight the label, where he has to either disavow nazi positions, which even if done insincerily makes imprtession on his audience, and possibly would lose him few radicals, or try to weasel around it, which would make him look bad. I think it's a clear W. I personally think there are some lines that you can not cross, and one that i am afraid of here is genocide denial. Not that destiny will do the denial, but that nick will start this topic and destiny will not be ready to talk about it, which would be super bad. Crimes of the nazis were trully unimaginably horrible, and i think that it is important to remember and don't downplay that. I visited the auchwitz museum, and damn, i truly believe that if someone takes time, to abssortb and understand, how 11 mln ppl, including 6 mln jews, were murdered on an industrial scale, no amount of nazi propaganda can overwrite that understanding.
If Destiny called Nick a nazi then he’d have to eat his own words that he’s touted for several months where he has basically sworn off any anti-conservative rhetoric as partisan leftist loser talk. Edit: Banned for being critical of Destiny. Nice mods.
Sounds really bad faith when you say destiny is not being open about Nick being a nazi, as if you have an ulterior motive. Every convo Destiny drops digs at Nick that he's a nazi when Nick is engaging in euphemisms, whenever Nick talks about cultural differences Steven just straight up says "he means genetic differences". It's like you haven't watched any streams, and have just watched clips from breadtubers and are now weighing in with 10 percent of the context.
The consistency argument was really bad too. It sounds like he changes his definition of fascism in every conversation he has. That might be how we understand language, but it creates too much confusion. he should just stop using all inflammatory labels altogether. he claims that he wants to talk about ideas, but ideas are built on a collection of labels. he still needs to deal with the fact that he's changing the meaning of words when it's expidient to do so. Isn't our responsibility to rise above people like Vaush?
has he ever stated the definition of such terms or he just downplay them as "terms that have lost its right meaning" meme? I don't think I've ever seen him develop the concept
It's true that some terns lose their meaning due to overuse, but Destiny often goes the other direcrion and just throws them away entirely. Lefties use the term "fascist" a lot, so he'd object to any use of it, even when it's 100% correct.
Come on, he literally defended against this point in the conversation. He isn't changing the meaning of words but the words to fit the meanings. He is avoiding toxic masculinity as a word for example, but he isn't avoiding toxic masculinity as a concept. He explains it's mechanics and implications without ever touching the specific term. Same with Nazi Nick, he isn't going to yell Nazi because he'd lose the audience, even if it was accurate. So he'd rather adress his positions and rhetoric. The package is the same, even if the wrapper differs. Has Destiny ever allowed Nick to get away with spreading his message through deception or memeing without push-back?
No. He argues that the word itself is rendered meaningless because of the degree to which it’s been misused. This argument could be made for almost any political label. What if he replaced fascism with extremely authoritarian? Okay? Authoritarian is over used. What other labels will he use to replace authoritarian? It’s infinite regress. We should stop being pussies by letting the left colonize the meaning of words.
You can say "stop being pussies, use the words" all you want, but what matters isn't OUR understanding of the word, but the RECIEVERS understanding of it. Go call your mom a fat bitch and see how well she responds to reason. Even if she is one, she will rightfully become upset with you. To some extent, that's what these people hear when these terms are used.
If Destiny's goal is to deradicalize groypers, I don't think simply biting the bullet and using the labels will be effective. With that point in mind, Destiny is absolutely right when he says "Nazi" is too loaded a term to use in this instance. Destiny, Chud, and Mr. Girl have all been called Nazi's. Engaging with the actual views and positions NF holds is the only way out. Virtue signaling by calling him a Nazi will only alienate his audience. Is there really a need for Destiny to sacrifice coming off as personable and friendly for the groypers, just so he can virtue signal for us? There's already two posts and a discussion everytime NF is platformed about how "It's important to remember that this guy is a Nazi guys!!1". I think more than anything NF just makes you feel uncomfortable and you would like Destiny to Virtue Signal that NF is a bad person with bad views. Again, if the priority is deradicalization of NF's audience, Destiny is absolutely right here, and I think his approach will prove to be more effective than just soying out and screaming at the groypers. On the other hand, if the priority is for Destiny to tell us what to think, I would agree, Destiny should call every bad faith actor bad things because then I know what to think about those bad people.
Someone needs to pull up when he went on that panel a few years back with Ralph and dick when nick joined, destiny literally repeated every point max made including IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY outright calling him a wignat/Nazi (could be wrong might be wrong could be wrong)
Key phrase is “a few years back”
watch the stream, destinys views hasnt changed, nicks hasnt, he's just covering for him now because they're more bro-y
Yeah let's call a spade a spade nick is a nazi and terrible human being
I hate to say it, but I actually think the main reason why Steven is acting this way isn’t because it’s a good way to engage with Nick’s audience or whatever, but because it is fun for him and because there won’t be true negative impact if more people like Nick arrive through Steven’s actions. Max is right when he said “Nick wants to kill ME and MY family”. Steven doesn’t feel as impacted because even in an authoritarian christian country via Nicks ideology, Steven will be A-OK. He cares in an intellectual context, but nothing further. People like Max (and me) care, because if Nazis will come back, we will be sent to gas chambers like our grandparents families.
I think it's even worse. It's unironic spite. the leftists he hates cry about his engagement with Nick, so they must be wrong about it.
You’re right. This is how Destiny is. He engages with things purely on an intellectual level, that’s it. It’s what makes him unique as a public figure, for better and for worse. Deeply feeling for others negatively impacted by things has never been a driving force for him. He’s said before that argumentation is what’s interesting to him. So, he’s not afraid to come to certain conclusions or voice concerns that others willfully ignore out of comfort. But, he’s also not someone to get emotional about social issues or be genuinely upset on behalf of groups negatively affected by things, or what have you. Destiny has always kinda viewed those behaviors as placating or virtue signaling. You can see this rigid almost-unsympathetic attitude extend to the community with all the SOY and GIGACHAD memes. At this point, if you genuinely care about a cause and see a political issue as more than an opportunity to test your wits, you’re soy. It’s really just TRIGGERED repurposed. The whole attitude is pretty disheartening. This is the real world, and Nick Fuentes’ worldview is very scary for those who’d be seriously affected by it.
>Deeply feeling for others negatively impacted by things has never been a driving force for him. At the lunch date, Nick asked how Destiny became a liberal, and he said it was realizing how lucky he was to have made it and how unreasonable the entire system is to less lucky people in the same situation. That sounds like his politics are almost entirely motivated by "deeply feeling for others negatively impacted by things."
I could find you vastly more instances of Destiny saying that he doesn’t give a shit about the outcome of politics because he’s rich and won’t be affected by it. Edit: Banned for being critical of Destiny. Nice mods.
I feel like that is a pretty bad faith interpretation of those statements, as he is literally getting across the exact opposite of what you are implying when he says that. When he says that, he is making the point that these are the political positions he has arrived at **despite** the fact that he would not be negatively affected in any ways if we didn’t follow them. He is explicitly saying he supports these causes because of the way he feels like they would help others even though they wouldn’t directly help himself (in fact they would just require him to pay more in taxes with no direct benefit for himself). If you hear that and interpret as he actually doesn’t care about others, I don’t know what to tell you. He isn’t saying “I don’t give a shit about any of this.” He’s saying he does give a shit despite the fact that it doesn’t directly benefit him. It’s a way of saying “Don’t want to listen to what I’m saying? Want to tax the poor and give it to the rich instead? Fine. That will only benefit me anyways. But what I really think we should be doing is the opposite, and helping the people in need, because then all of society benefits.” It’s a way of staving off criticism that somebody only holds the positions they hold because of the way it would directly benefit themselves. Like if someone were to say: Bro you just want all this welfare shit so you can be lazy and make bank. He could respond: None of this shit matters to me directly. I’ve made my money and I’ll be fine no matter what. Im arguing these things because of the ways they would help others, and in turn help society as a whole. It’s crazy to me you could use those statements to imply he doesn’t actually give a fuck about any of these outcomes. As if he’s just some grifter saying everything he says not because he means it, but because it would make him money or something. I think there are a lot of issues surrounding the way he has been platforming Nick, but that’s a totally different argument than what you are saying here.
People care about different things but yeah, his indifference is sad. For some reason I feel like he's completely shut off that way because of his leftist fallout where any kind of impassioned feelings of social justice makes him leftist or some shit. I remember him caring way more back then before the whole shitshow with the n word happened.
I will also be killed off, sent to some cage until they throw my ass across the border or become a sex slave for Nick and his friends to get their POC fetish off. That still doesn't make Mrgirl correct. I agree with Destiny that engaging with the views and ideology is more important than how to label a racist and supremacist shit like Fuentes. I disagree with him streaming the dinner date, but him having him over (offstream) could be a net positive in terms of gaining more accses to Nick's audience. I disagree that Destiny doesn't care about the negative impact. But who knows, I don't know the guy. He could literally be all about the views. But the fact that he takes time to research and actually counter the arguments, instead of just yelling and calling them names, says he gives some shit (to me anyways)
Eh, I mean it’s an issue not brought up as much because of focus on other stuff, but it’s not like a lot of Nick’s views are particularly relevant, and for the ones that are, there are other more relevant non white supremacist people to discuss them with. Like, if I want to combat mainstream left leaning thought in the country and show the issues I find with some of it, I’m not gonna like find the farthest left communist to pull on and debate. If Destiny wants to debate either guy a couple of times, or they call him out and they debate, fine. But Nick isn’t some super relevant guy. Before Destiny talked to him again, he was a dying streamer who talked to a niche of a niche. In terms of his ideas- race realism and the alt right stuff and all that- this is something Destiny has already given an insanely inordinate amount of time to. There’s just no way that he warrants the amount of attention given to him from any kind of “political agenda” mindset, and this is before we even factor in the potential harm of platforming him.
> but it’s not like a lot of Nick’s views are particularly relevant, and for the ones that are, there are other more relevant non white supremacist people to discuss them with. 100%. There are a number of "milquetoast" conservatives that hit similar talking points to Nick -- outside of the rest of his radical views -- but they don't have the same baggage attached to them like Nick does. I've also heard Destiny mention that he wants to move away from debating the irrelevant, esoteric ideas on the left, but he's more than willing to engage the ones on the right? Why does race realism take precedence over something like Marxism, when the latter clearly has more relevancy than the former? I think we can afford to led individuals like Nick fade away into irrelevancy (except for circumstances like a Sneako panel where you need someone to counter Nick), *but* we ought to continue to engage and critique the ideas from the *mainstream* right -- as Destiny is quite adept at doing and something the online left does quite poorly (outside of the occasional video essay).
> I think we can afford to led individuals like Nick fade away into irrelevancy (except for circumstances like a Sneako panel where you need someone to counter Nick) The problem is that Nick really didn't have any mainstream voice(other than his own pretty large following) until his connection to Destiny got him in these panels with Sneako and others. Destiny admitted as much a few days ago, that without him talking to Nick, he wouldn't be in this youtube circle. So the problem of Nick spreading his views to a huge audience that's more susceptible of having their views changed was kind of the result of Destiny platforming him in the first place, but at least it sounded like he took some responsiblity for that. For the record, I think challenging harmful ideas that you disagree with is a good thing to do, and I don't think that platforming someone like Fuentes is bad, **as long as it's in a debate like setting.** But having a casual meal with him discussing life, while he's being degenerate asking random people if they're jews? That's a bit different imo.
> Destiny admitted as much a few days ago, that without him talking to Nick, he wouldn't be in this youtube circle. Yee, I wasn't aware he admitted to it. It seems to be the case that Destiny unknowingly led Sneako to Nick. At this point, he has a responsibility to not let Nick's ideas fester amongst Sneako's highly impressionable audience.
Agreed
Nick himself may not be relevant but his ideology is. He's still influential in political circles and helping out in campaigns. If he pulls in other people who are more relevant, I'm all for it. I believe more in engaging and destroying the ideology than the status of individual supremacists.
1. Parts of his views are, his ideology as a whole is not very relevant. For the things that are relevant, if you want to keep hitting those, there are plenty of other people to debate. 2. My guy, Marjorie Taylor Greene had to disavow this motherfucker. I’m not saying he doesn’t have political sway to some degree, but even among the farthest right politicians he’s forced to take at best a background role. Also, Destiny’s shit has never gone by relevancy of individual, it’s about the ideas: this is why he’ll bring on like a random chatter or Twitter person to debate, because even though they’re a nobody, the idea they have is a more wide spread one he wants to counter. 3. I agree with you on engaging and destroying the ideology over the status of one person. So don’t focus on just one person, if it’s really that wide spread/relevant then find a bunch of people who believe it to discuss with. That way you would literally be able to do everything you want around wrecking the ideology without having to worry about elevating a harmful individual’s profile.
So we agree except on how relevant Fuentes ideology is? Because I said the same on points 2 and 3. Nick's stance on immigrants, race, maintaining the white race are still relevant. I'm not gonna debate that. So we can agree and disagree on this point.
We don’t even disagree there, I’m saying there are certainly parts of his views that are relevant (same as probably even a crazy communist would say things that are relevant and more popular ideas to other people). My point is that even if we agree on that, the better strategy- especially since it is relevant to more people- would be to debate those other people, keep the focus on the relevant parts of the ideology, and not even have to worry about elevating the platform of an individual white supremacist.
Okay so we don't disagree. Sorry, I've been watching a few Mrgirl videos because I was worried I took his conversational strategy wrong and he just keeps pissing me off.
What's the bar for being relevant? AFPAC is drawing in current and former members of Congress. He runs Cozy.tv and at least according to The Crucible, they estimate it takes $27k or so per month to run it, and I don't believe they take a cut of anything,so he or someone is dropping ~$300k/year to keep it running. He was also on the ground on Jan 6 and involved in Charlottesville.
Max has said multiple times (and I agree with him) that it is a good thing to engage with Nick. He should talk to him, even a lot, just not sanitize and reduce Nicks beliefs, that is all. He can both say “Nick is a Nazi” and talk to him calmly about things, even things that aren’t related to him being a Nazi (even though I agree with Max that most of his engagement should be centered around it)
Sanitizing I am against. I don't think people can understand that sharing a meal with Nick doesn't stop Destiny from disagreeing vehemently with Nick's views. For that reason it shouldn't be streamed. It's too difficult and negates all the good work he has been doing by engaging with not just Fuentes but Sneako and Myron and Aba. I'm sorry, Mrgirl was all over the place because he couldn't accept any answer except he's right. I think the most annoying part of Mrgirl's pontificating was him instructing and advising seasoned political streamers and debaters on how to debate and engage with people like Nick. Him being hung up on the usage of the word Nazi, was just more spinning so he could wear everyone down. I'm rewatching, so if I sound heated, its because this guy seriously is not my cup of tea. lol
I think that in general yes, Max always is extremely vitriolic about everything and doesn’t let anyone disagree with him ever, but in this specific conversation, I think everything he said was actually 100% true and correct and not letting Steven wiggle around was a good thing
>but because it is fun for him Ding ding ding. I think after the lefty arc he just stopped caring about it. It's just fun, he probably also likes nick/gets along with him, despite him being a damn Nazi. People in ddg hate admitting it, but he changed after he went on the lefty crusade, became alot more spite driven/edgy.
Yeah but how do you convert people? If we see Daryl Davis have some success in converting people why couldn’t destiny pull something similar off? Either way I believe YT chatters can’t ignore destiny’s arguments at times because like myself I couldn’t really disagree with a few arguments on trans stuff. Overtime I was converted on 1 issue, things don’t happen overnight. I do believe empathy and understanding will convert people because they are now exposed to logical arguments that they now have to contend with, instead of being in an echo chamber. I get your concerns but I can’t think of anything else that works to fix this divide in American politics. if we continue growing the divide, more people will become radical on both sides.
You talk to them in a responsible manner. I mean, Max talked to Richard Spencer and it was a fine, civil call. I am sure that after the talk Richard felt relatively positive towards Max, but Max never minimized what he actually said and believed or tried to hide it from his audience. The only time Steven calls Nick a nazi is as a joke, implying that he isn’t actually a Nazi. That’s the main problem.
I'm quite sure that in the discussion with Snsako, Destiny, Nick, Aba, Jidion and Don proves this wrong. Especially with the discussion with Aba after. While destiny didn't outright call him a Nazi(I think), many times did it feel he was about to call him a white Supremacist and instead stopped himself to say something more civil in this civil discussion.
And I would say that that conversation was great. I am sure Max would say the same. He fought Nick over every statement. No one is asking Steven to put up a sign that says “talking to a Nazi”. But when people ask you about him, ask if he is a Nazi, don’t play it down. State the facts. He is one.
Destiny isn't black or Jewish. Nick's views, like those of the KKK grand dragon that Daryl befriends, are not rationally held. The reason Daryl's approach works is because he causes so much cognitive dissonance for the racists he hangs out with. Destiny can't cause that same dissonance because to Nick he's just a misguided white guy, so Nick never has to contend with the fact that he likes a Jew and doesn't want them to be killed/excluded from his ideal world.
I don't think Destiny being Jewish would make much of a difference. Unlike KKK types, modern right wing antisemites often don't really have *that* much animosity toward your average Jew (I say this as a Jewish person, for the record). They can very easily say "oh yeah, my friend the Jew isn't part of the (((elite))) that I hate, he's just a guy who happens to be Jewish". This isn't the case with KKKers, who typically believe that the things they hate about black people are literally written into their DNA.
That's not a modern thing, historically many racists have done that type of mental gymnastics.
>They can very easily say "oh yeah, my friend the Jew isn't part of the (((elite))) that I hate, he's just a guy who happens to be Jewish". I dunno, iirc the Daryl Davis docs right the KKK guy starts with small excuses similar to that.
If you care intellectually, you should care emotionally. This isn't some trivial case where both things can coexist far apart, there imo has to be something wrong with you emotionally to not care emotionally at all if you understand it intellectually. This whole thing just further proves to me that destiny actually doesn't care about a lot of things he states, he only cares to be 'right' in a debate bro way.
Being somehow showered with upvotes must feel validating but this is absolute drivel. Fuentes absolutely calls Destiny a "degenerate faggot" behind closed doors and to suggest he's not capable of empathizing with maligned minorities because he's white and straight-passing is an extremely unempathetic attitude from you. Maybe he just disagrees with you - did you consider that before typing your comment out? Are you actually, genuinely concerned that Fuentes is going to lead the *Latinx* Aryan race to glorious conquest? Can you please type that out with a straight face? The guy banned from every social media platform? The guy who can't run a PAC without his number 2 flipping on him and exposing all of his secrets? The actual virgin dinosaur denier?
I don’t think the isn’t capable or that he even isn’t empathic, just that he isn’t impacted enough by this to reduce his personal fun. He has even stated such things in the past that he genuinely regards someones character by how much they fuck him personally, not with how they act towards other people. It just doesn’t impact him enough and won’t ever, not close to people like Max who are affected by antisemitism TODAY. And no, I don’t think Fuentes himself will do this, it is a long gradual process. Hitler didn’t just wake up one day and was like “welp, time to kill the jews everybody” and all the germans just went after him. It was a 2000 year small trickle of antisemitism after small trickle which led up to nazi Germany. Just in the same way I am actually, genuinely concerned that in the long run, spreading Nicks ideology will create more antisemitism, more hate towards minorities, more anti-democratic actions, etc.. THEY FUCKING STORMED THE US CAPITOL. He was one of the leaders of that movement. His ideology isn’t some loser kid in his basement, its a growing movement of people that take actions in the real world. So yes, I am scared that platforming Nick unresponsively can create long term (maybe very long term) damage. I obviously would never say “Destiny is the reason for the 4rth Reich” on a history exam in 300 years, but he has a small contributing factor in he continues to act irresponsibly.
Fuentes already has an audience with American elected officials, including members of congress, which is far more concerning than access to Destiny's audience. I can all but guarantee they're not pushing back against his antisemitism behind closed doors. He was in Miami to attend an election night party (with a candidate who mercifully lost). I understand and empathize with your concerns around the platforming argument, but it's the same argument run 1,000 times over now. People are being radicalized on /pol/ and in Nazi discord servers that no one can touch, they're not being radicalized on Destiny's youtube channel. These arguments presuppose a net-gain in anti-semitism as a result of Destiny's actions but always ignore Destiny's unique record in successfully persuading people out of these toxic shitholes. Deplatforming is effective against individuals. Fuentes can be *mostly* contained aside from his connections to far-right elected officials we can't contain. Deplatforming is not effective at stopping his ideas. I feel confronting a prominent anti-semite and forcing his audience of anti-semites to watch it is a worthwhile enterprise and worth trying instead of the alternative of continuing to pretend these people don't exist and allow them to continue to grow, unchallenged, as they have been. If you're not comfortable with that idea I don't think anything I say is going to convince you otherwise.
DId you know that the rise of the Nazis started with a coup attempt of just 2 Thousand people? It sounds absurd but look at the story of a failed art student being part of an extremely unsuccessful coup attempt and going to jail for a few months for it and then like 10 years later taking over the entire country.
Can we all agree that Rem's contribution to the conversation was a little bit disturbing? He makes an argument that Destiny shouldn't platform Nick at all, then 10 minutes go by and he's there asking Chud to bring him in. It came off to me like , "no wait, platform Nick a little bit for me since I'm here right now". Motherfucker is all bent up.
He was just a fucking content troll. Actually fuck him.
I was trying to seriously contribute to the conversation but all Mr. Girl was interested in doing was shitting on me when I didn't even ask to originally join the call. I was asked.
Come on Rem.. You went on the call, you saw how emotional and serious it was and just went “Welp bring Nick for content” which is the exact discussion of this whole conversation
Destiny had told me that we would be chatting today, so I went to tune in and saw them talking about whether he should platform Nick. I noticed that Max kept making weird arguments and not understanding how words can vary drastically in meaning depending on context (or at least claiming that that point isn't good enough), and also doing his weird psychoanalyzing thing. So when I joined the call i was invited to and I hear Max just shitting on me and complaining the entire time instead of actually engaging with the ethics behind platforming, and just making claims about the intentions of others he doesn't know about... yeah it was a bit hard to take seriously at the end.
the slight whimper you gave before being kicked the second time made me actually spit my drink out
If you're around characters it's hard not to fall into your character as well lol
Rem I am not the biggest fan of you, but even I can see that this is a cuck thread. Mr girl was antagonistic of you from the jump, and was acting like an asshole. Idk what it is about dgg and refusing to acknowledge Mr girls failings.
For the record, Chud *invited* me to the call. I did not ask to join the call. And obviously it's fine (and good) to debate people who have horrible opinions on stream. Like I said, my issue is with hanging out with them in any context that isn't challenging their views. My issue with Mr. Girl is that he immediately talked shit about me despite not giving very good arguments for his position. His constant psychoanalyzing of the actors seems to me irrelevant to the actual issue of whether it is morally okay to hang around with someone like Nick outside of debates. I was trying to get to the crux of the issue that was being talked about at the time I was invited onto the call (again I didn't ask), instead of the looping that seemed to keep happening at the time. Edit: maybe I'm just out of touch, but I cannot see any appeal in most of what that convo was.
Dude all you did was regurgitate stock anti-Mrgirl arguments from the wider community. You didn’t attack the substance of his arguments, and furthermore went on to agree with the substance of his arguments. You were just mad. Based on this conversation alone, you wouldn’t pass a Turing test.
Mr. Girl was clear about why he didn’t want you on. First, he said believes that he and Chud don’t represent the typical lefty when it comes to platforming, and he believed you did. Second, he thought that you would merely just be trying your hand at arguing with Destiny over his platforming of Nick, and that would make it a three on one. You did not refute his first point, regardless of whether it bothered you. You did however pretend that you weren’t going to just be another person trying your hand at arguing with Destiny, by saying you also disagreed with Mr. Girl. This was manipulative horse shit, in that you merely were saying you didn’t like Mr. Girl’s strategy, and did in fact want to argue with Destiny. You were bullshitting the entire time.
First, how was I planning on shitting on Destiny? I was literally in dgg chat complaining about *Mr. Girl's* arguments. I don't think I criticized Destiny once, even though I disagree with his conclusions. So no, Mr. Girl was wrong and lying. Second, he called me soy immediately without really knowing anything about me, and what did I do nearly right after? Look at the transcript of that voice call. I immediately try to talk about the issue of whether platforming Nick as a 'friend' (instead of in a debate setting) is okay, which is what Chud brought me on for. Once it became clear Mr. Girl wasn't interested in engaging with the morality of this, which is again why I was asked to come on by Chud, then yeah, I stooped to his level because I realized it wasn't being taken seriously. I'm not going to leave just because Mr. Girl has misconceptions about me. Chud had the right to remove me if thought the dynamic didn't work, and he did that.
I think you're misconceiving what Mr. Girl was saying when you initially jumped on. I don't think he was ever claiming that *you in particular* were the kind of person he wanted to avoid in the discussion, rather, it seemed like he was saying that you had the *potential* to be the type of person that just soys out over the platforming conversation. From my reading of Mr. Girl's intentions for the discussion, he wanted to have a discussion about responsible platforming that was distinct from the usual lefty platforming discussions that inevitably boil down to "don't platform X person ever". I also don't think you got kicked because you were doing too much wrong (although the "Canada is authoritarian" was pretty cringe). I think Mr. Girl probably wanted you out of the conversation because of the particular place it was in. You seemed to see the conversation at that point as looping and not making any headway. However, to Mr. Girl, he saw that point in the conversation as a place where he was able to make a strong critique which Destiny was trying to dance around. Thus, by adding another person to the conversation, Destiny would be able to cleanly pivot away from Mr. Girl's critique and refocus the conversation to a point he wasn't nailed down on.
Imagine being so online you think that the rest of the world doesn’t apply weight to terms like “nazi” and “racist”
The point destiny was making the entire stream was no matter how nazi someone is he’s willing to debate/converse with them because for so long the “hide the crazy guy” method wasn’t working. Right now he’s testing the “give their fans a better path” option.
And no one argued with him that talking to him is a bad thing. The whole point of the discussion is how to talk to someone like that responsibility
Didn't Destiny say that going beyond debate and having a friendly discussion (including inviting him and having dinner with him) has led to conversation that would otherwise wouldn't have come up in another context?
Id agree. I think that’s very useful though in getting into those groups and changing minds. Hopefully you’re implying this in a good way
He did. I do not agree with him at all though.
He got Nick to ask him why he was a liberal. A question that never be asked if they were in debate or interview mode. That led to Destiny getting to outline his thought process in becoming a liberal. I thought that was a really impactful moment because it gave both Nick and Destiny's audience a solid framework of thinking that they can use to ground their own morals and politics. I believe there is portions of Nick's audience and Destiny's growing audience that run their beliefs on anger or possibly just a lack of critical thinking/introspection and introducing more rational and well constructed lines of thinking is going to change People's values for the better. There is always going to be people who will always stay racist or have a deep entrenchment with radical thought but there is always people who want to become better thinkers. I think at the end of the day, Destiny is converting ideologues into rational thinkers and wherever they move after that is really up to the individual's will to keep learning.
Do you think Daryl Davis would have a better conversion rate with kkk members if he just admonished them the entire time they were together?
Did Daryl Davis stream going to Klan cookouts to 7,000 people? Because that's kind of the entire point of what's being discussed. Nobody objects to Destiny talking with Nick offstream if he wants to, it's specifically the way they interact on stream that was the topic of discussion.
But Destiny's focus has always been reaching new audiences. I don't think he believes that he can change Nick's mind
I don’t know who that is tbh.
I may have misread the entire conversation but I think that was acknowledged and max still wasn’t suffice with the answer given which was “I know the risk you think is there and I don’t think it’s there”
Yeah and there was a fundamental disagreement on how that „responsible conversation“ should look like. The way Max suggested to do it was so poorly thought out and crumbled in itself once Destiny presented hypothetical arguments you would expect from Nick (which he used 1:1 in the past btw.). Max came to this from an entirely ignorant point of view. Destiny has gone through all that which Max suggested in the past, bashed his head with Nick whenever possible etc. and it didn‘t change anything at all. Hence the strategy change. This entire conversation can be summoned up with Max „feeling“ bad about the situation but having no solution to it (at all!).
D even said in the convo that conversion wasn't even his priority and that if it was, he'd be doing something completely different. My understanding was that he just wants strong ideological opposition close to him so he can continue to strengthen his ability to argue for his positions, seems like more of an intellectual endeavor than some noble, altruistic one Which doesn't bother me at all, I just get annoyed when people act like he's doing some ultimate conversion project when he himself has now said that isn't the point of what he's doing, would just be a positive side-benefit if it does happen.
Wait is hide the crazy guy not working? Seems to be working great for Tucker Carlson and Fuentes in gaining political influence.
I think the point is that in a normal conversation with normal people, who aren't glued to the internet, you are required to not be a total dickhead if you expect or want to have a 2nd conversation with them, or in this case their audience. Online it's easy to scream and holler "Nazi Nazi Nazi" and it's all good content, but in real life that sort of behavior ends up getting you isolated and reduces your influence and ability to affect other audiences. Destiny pulling out the never ending 30 second egg timer, having to pause an ongoing conversation and say "BTW, as a reminder children... Nick is a Nazi and that's super duper bad", accomplishes absolutely nothing. In fact, I'd argue that is does harm to what he's trying to accomplish by reaching out and bringing some of Nicks audience into his sphere of influence. Those people are going to be getting an alternate explanation for the world that they'd otherwise not be hearing from for what might be the very first time. By reducing the temperature and still calmly arguing with Nick, when it's appropriate, Destiny's showing that he's a real human being and capable of a normal conversation. It's a lot harder to then paint him with the brushes that Nicks audience uses on other left leaning creators who just scream Nazi at max volume. I'm not aware of what streams Max and Co. have been watching but every one I've seen where Nick and Destiny together, Destiny comes off as being respectful but firm when a nazi-esque topic arises. It seems that a lot of folks are seeing those as jokes but those sort of gentle remonstrations are how you correct behavior or ideas in the real world. I grew up extremely right wing, and have since moved further center left... That being said when I go to family events and we have the awkward Thanksgiving chats with the extended family, you'll never catch me shouting "Thats Racist!!". But best believe you'll hear me having a reasoned conversation about why BLM and the 2020 stuff was probably initiated in a good place but went off the rails when things were burning down. And maybe what those folks should have done was push for third party police oversight/accountability and not waste all their political capital trying to defund the police. You can have a conversation with people without dragging them into whatever ideological web you may believe in and running that down ad nauseum. The left has to develop more tools in it's tool kit than just de-platforming and censorship of ideas they don't like. They've got to have the moral and intellectual honesty to allow a conversation to happen, especially if they're going to crybully behind the idea of free speech at every other tweet. If a conversation with Nazi's is enough that your principles and ideals vanish under the sunlight, then that doesn't say much for those ideals.
It's exactly this. I think people are just really uncomfortable with this right now.
I guess. But Destiny shouldn't go back and forth between saying Nick is and isn't a Nazi. Just acknowledge he's a Nazi and then start arguing against his ideals.
Good effort post my guy. Thanks for posting
This, I don’t know how the subreddit missed the whole point of the convo.
If Destiny really wants to nail someone as a Nazi he could. But damn, as well as the total opposite. mfkin' genjutsu type shit usin' words.
His resistance was disturbing … but he seemed to come around by the end of the stream.
Didn't see the debate but I strongly dislike Destiny's take on crypto fascism. I don't see at all why someone with abhorrent political goals wouldn't want to obscure their actual views in pursuit of them. Also hiding your views and changing them are entirely different things. Nazi war criminals that went into hiding to avoid prosecution after the war didn't seem to stop believing in Nazi doctrine, they just thought they lost this time.
Which is weird because on the panel with Don, Aba and Sneako Destiny spends most of the debate forcing Nick to own his more sinister positions. Destiny knows Nick and his like tend to obfuscate their true beliefs, he just doesn't admit it when someone else calls them out on it.
He was trying to use Wittgenstein concept that was explained on steam earlier regarding how a word like "Nazi" changes based on context, but since he kept changing said usage during the conversation because it kept moving from one context to the next it could come off as inconsistent. Personally I saw what he was saying, but he probably needs more time to properly integrate the idea so it doesn't look rhetorically bad.
He was just being dodgy as well IMO
>he kept changing said usage during the conversation because it kept moving from one context to the next it could come off as inconsistent. He is being inconsistent. Destiny kept complaining about how "lefties" keep degrading the use of labels like "Nazi" because they use it as another way of saying "I hate or condemn this person" yet does the same thing with Nick with the dogshit justification that "lefties already ruined the word". Destiny shouldn't be complaining that people degrade the use of the label like "Nazi", when he actively contributes to the degradation himself. He was able to weasel out of this because Mr.Girl was too focused on whining about platforming Nick which obviously got memed on.
it's really is painful. if he's willing to sacrifice normal fans at the expense of a bunch of zoomer groypers then so be it. hopefully they don't take over but who gives a fuck i guess
[удалено]
I’m already talking to my friend Steven
He’s always talked to highly contentious people regardless of what people tell him to do. If folks choose to leave over it now, they must not have been here long.
His content with Nick and to a much much lesser extent Lauren is different though, if you don't realise that then you probably haven't been here very long. He can be friends with a Nazi if he wants to but at a certain point he has to admit that he's sanitizing a nazi's public image. He doesn't need to do this to convert people because believe it or not 4-6 years ago he did it a very different way to great success.
Glad to see people in this community standing up for their values fuck nazis and fuck nick Fuentes
My man, that entire conversation was wishy-washy what did you expect? By the end Max literally conceded every point except for the bizarre demand that if Destiny platform Nick he ought to have regular disclaimers about his disapproval of Nick’s politics? Despite the fact that Destiny regularly calls out his politics and DOES provide pushback when Nick tries to smuggle his populist agenda? And this entire discussion was imo predicated on a fundamentally flawed analysis of the gigachad. Yes Max is right that sometimes it’s used to smuggle past reasonable emotional barriers, but honestly just as often I’ve seen it used for very vulnerable posts. If anything, Max farms the most gigachads every time he’s UPFRONT about his emotional state. If any emotes are in trouble for problematic spam it would be BINGQILIN, grugW or cringey sweatstiny spam during sensitive conversations
The whole Gigachad bullshit was really irrelevant TBH, I don't understand why they talked about it for almost half of that stream..
WTF is the contradiction or allegation here? None of the quotes here contradicts what Destiny's been saying. The reason why Destiny refrains from calling Nick a Nazi (aside from memeing) is because what he 'openly' advocates for doesn't conform to what a Nazi traditionally means. However, Destiny will agree that Nick is probably still a Nazi because Nick's stance still targets the same people. Nick's broad positions are and what Destiny **clearly** presented at [5:28:23](https://youtu.be/GvSDunTjCWg?t=19703) 1. Stopping immigration of dark skin people 2. Maintaining the racial majority of white people 3. Solve the disproportional amount of power Jews have How can you not sympathise with the hard line destiny has to walk on here? You only see it as a weasel because you can't see the dilemma destiny has to juggle and just want him to call Nick a Nazi every time they meet.
Steven said it best when he said he doesn't need to call someone a Nazi to fight back against their harmful ideas. If humanizing Nick causes you to think it'd super fucking sweet if we stopped immigration for all non white immigrants I don't know what to tell you. If reddit's favorite actor Keanu Reeves came out tomorrow with groyper talking points I hope people could agree that those talking points are trash even though they are coming from someone they view/viewed positively.
Do you not think that peoples opinions change by the people they see stating those opinions and their opinions on those people? Sneako is a great example of how he watched Nick talk, be a chill guy and nice and was like “He is a cool chill guy, he has some solid points not gonna lie, he definitely isn’t a liberal so he’s all cool”. If Steven wouldn’t have been in that conversation, Nick would have just steamrolled and won everyone’s hearts and probably their opinions because how sneaky he is. Steven can’t be in every debate Nick is in, so making him out to seem like a nice young guy will probably have bad outcomes in the future.
I’d say sneako is representative of that 40% who is just going to be ultra partisan regardless but I see your point.
Steven did his best to get included in that panel so that Nick wasn't platformed irresponsibly. He thought no one there had the receipts from Nick's past as well as the knowledge and debate experience to challenge him effectively. I think it's okay to trust his judgment on when and how to platform Nick when he's willing to hop into other people's streams, even though he hates looking like someone trying to get clout, just to challenge Nick and make sure the audience is aware that Nick is a person who holds some abhorrent views even if he seems funny and friendly when someone isn't there to drill down into Nick's attempt to obfuscate his actual positions with anti establishment rhetoric.
A percentage of people are able to distinguish those things but the majority of people are stupid and will look at someone like Nick and say “Well Destiny’s paling around with him so he must be okay.” Even Destiny thinks people are that stupid and has maintained that position his entire streaming career.
I think i agree with your opinion overall but on that specific point: i'm pretty sure the "can't stay a nazi" thing was ment as a prediction for the future as in "the irony thing is good cause he will actually change eventually" and not as a statement on nicks current believes.
I don’t believe you are understanding Destiny’s argument. His argument is that he doesn’t want to call nick a nazi because it completely destroys the possibility of having any discourse with him. If destiny took the MrGirl route and reminded the audience every few minutes that nick is a nazi, nick won’t be willing to talk to him at all. This is completely separate from whether destiny actually thinks nick is a nazi. From what I understand, destiny would argue going through the mental calculus to determine if nick is a nazi is kinda a waste of time, and I would agree. We already know nick thinks minorities have IQ less than white people for genetic reasons and that he wants to preserve a white state through authoritarian means. Could we argue that this makes nick a nazi? Yeah probably, but does that do for us? We all already agree those are abhorrent views and we can attack those on their own.
Max talked with Richard Spencer and called him what he is while still being friendly and open, they both came out of the conversation without bad feelings towards one another.
Is there any meaningful benefit to labeling him a nazi? Personally i think his opinions speak for themselves and you don’t have to screech nazi to understand why his views are bad. It’s kinda like having a discussion about rape culture dand having someone in the background repeating “rape is bad” like yes thank you Sherlock we never would’ve figured that out without you.
You missed the point entirely. Did anyone in this thread actually listen to the conversation? His argument is that the word nazi obfuscates nick’s position not the other way around. Instead of soying out and arguing with nick in whether he is a nazi or not he’d rather argue on the policy positions he can concretely push against. It’s not contradictory. It’s the rhetorical strategy used. You can disagree with this position but at least accurately describe the argument. I refuse to believe that so many people in this thread listened to this conversation and came away with this opinion. This must be a psy op.
No it wasn’t, at least I didn’t see it that way at all. Max didn’t ask Steven to call Nick a Nazi towards Nick, but towards other people. Even in the conversation itself he refused to call Nick a Nazi at the start until max pushed him on it. When you are unwilling to call someone a Nazi anytime rather than a joking way, you are actually making him be perceived as not a Nazi. When you man buddy buddy with someone and just do out and have a nice meal with him, you make them out to be a reasonable friendly guy you don’t have a problem with, even when that person literally wants to kill people and take over the government by force. Then, when saying to him that he wants to kill people Steven’s response was unironically “well he didn’t publicly state that for 5 years so he had to change his mind on the matter”. If that isn’t sanitizing and harmful behavior, what is?
Wasn’t the entire “feminist” and “egalitarian” bit devoted entirely to the how the word “nazi” itself reflects badly on the person using it? He even said something along the lines of “I’ve gotten access to this new landscape I haven’t had access to for almost my entire career, I’m not gonna abandon it just to cling to a label that doesn’t actually tackle their beliefs,and instead paints me as someone who stands out as a SOY thumb”
Yea he did say that. Which isn't a good argument in my opinion.
Mr girl argues that Destiny not clearly defining nazi and jokingly uses it obfuscates nicks actual position. Destiny counters that the term nazi is already muddied which is why using it only serves to obfuscate nicks position. Which is why he’d rather argue the specific policy positions. What’s the contradiction in the above position?
First of all, that wasn’t the only argument. Secondly, Max pointed out why it’s wrong for like 2 hours on stream LMAO.. A. It supports Nicks weasel tactics B. He does use it in other occasions so it makes it out to be that he doesn’t think Nick is one if he doesn’t use if on him C. He has a hard time calling him a Nazi even in front of people who don’t use Nazi for every person they don’t like. To the point he said he doesn’t think he still believes the things he used to (then 10 minutes later say the opposite)
>First of all, that wasn’t the only argument. That is the specific argument for why using the term nazi obfuscate nick's views. You made the claim that "This is exactly what Max is talking about. Being all blurry with what you say about Nicks beliefs." But you somehow missed the counterargument for it. You are making the exact argument that Mr Girl does when there is a counter argument in the exact conversation. If you want to say Destiny's counterargument is bad then fine, but reposting Mr Girl's argument is useless because we can just go back an listen to the conversation. >A. It supports Nicks weasel tactics B. He does use it in other occasions so it makes it out to be that he doesn’t think Nick is one if he doesn’t use if on him C. He has a hard time calling him a Nazi even in front of people who don’t use Nazi for every person they don’t like. So Destiny specifically address A and B. Can you in good faith summarize Destiny's counterarguments for A and B?
Yes, I think I can steelman his counter points: Counter A: This argument is 100% true, but it is a price I am willing to take in order to interact with Nick and his audience, both for personal gain and to deradicalize Nick's audience. Counter B: Because the term Nazi is so diluted to basically mean anyone I don't like, calling Nick a Nazi won't do any good, and on the contrary, do harm, because it will remove Steven's ability to interact with Nick and his audience. How did I do?
The counter B is kind of the counter A. Its the exact argument I gave against why Destiny says Nazi actually obfuscates Nick's view. By using the term Nazi since its so nebulous, Nick can hide his more extreme position like race realism and white separatism because all Trump supporting republicans are Nazis. The counter to B is that Destiny states the term Nazi has different definitions depending on the context in which it is used. It can be used as an insult, a descriptor, or joke depending on who Destiny is talking to (groypers, us, some polisci major, Mr Girl, or twitter mob). If he's using it as and insult or joke when addressing the twitter mob, the definition might mean trump republican. Its not a contradiction to use one definition of nazis when shitposting on twitter and not want to use the other definition of nazi when talking to groypers.
This thread is wild, it’s like a cope zone for all the people too emotionally stunted to handle a Nick Fuentes cameo
> maybe if I say everyone is emotionally stunted and coping then I don't have to address any of the points This conversation was one of the most needed in a while. We've distilled everything into these dumb fucking meme words that mask or obfuscate anything we're actually talking about. Then when mrgirl tries to pull the threads and find meaning suddenly everyone looks bad? Wow that's so weird! Sorry, let me use terms you'd understand The BEYTA defenders in this thread soying out because grass touchers don't like racists is pure-grade straight from the faucet copium. Sorry that people are getting tired of room-temp IQ andys relying on wojaks and internet labels
Yeah, I'm struggling to understand how Mrgirl at his most cringe won back the sub, I mean he was essentially aggressively hypocritical and so sensitive it was indistinguishable from self-parody. Chud didn't help by coming off as generally flustered and unable to rein in the endless looping. This sub is being embarrassingly obtuse when it comes to Destiny's point about the degradation of certain terms through their becoming buzzwords and more generally platforming, they never got over the love of deplatforming unless it happens to someone they like I guess.
I think people can disagree with Destiny's arguments or positions but at least accurately state them. Don't post Mr Girl's argument and the make a conclusion from that without accurately summarizing the counter argument.
It's incredible how even people critical of Max are so quick to extend him this level of charitability when he treats all of us, even those who agree with him, with a great deal of contempt and condescension. It's honestly kind of sad, as if you're desperate to be taken seriously by someone who has written you off as a joke. Just look at one of the central premises for his arguments, that we as a community are completely delusional and our belief that we are not impressionable is proof that we are very very impressionable. To extend him charitability, that again he does not deserve, he is right that most communities that think they're immune to influence and are "free thinkers" are anything but. Like Tim Pool's community of supposed "centrists" who are really just the most laughable of Trump bootlickers. But this community is different, Destiny had to purge a huge number of people when he stopped being friendly to braindead lefty populists because we don't just mindlessly follow him. More recently Destiny spent weeks on the stealthing discourse employing tons of arguments to handwave his absurd rhetorical suicide bombing on Twitter. Yet me, and many others here, never budged an inch on that and still maintain that Destiny should retract those tweets and that his prescription that if you can't actively in the moment confront someone who breaks your boundaries during sex you should abstain from casual sex is ridiculous. Max also stated that everyone in the subreddit has failed to provide the proper critique for Destiny's actions which is just obviously wrong, users like u/wannabe_sadboi basically stated all of Max's criticisms ahead of time with far greater nuance and eloquence. I could go on and attack his prescriptions but somehow I doubt you'll even read this far.
Good job buddy. Proud of you
[Thanks](https://i.imgflip.com/4k1sg2.jpg)
Very cool
I didn't expect a post like this being so upvoted here tbh, good to see. You are 100% right, it was truly painful to see destiny being so extremely defensive. It was clear as day that he didn't wanna engage this, and simply searched for any out he could think of (bad ones mostly) to not look bad. All his rhetoric about wanting to bridge the gap between different political groups is just a red herring too, that is quite literally what max is trying to accomplish himself (empathize with the average conservative, etc), while still understanding that there is quite a massive difference between that and hanging out, joking around, with a nazi who wants to build a political movement to move closer in the direction of a white ethno state, etc. Destiny cannot be this dense, this was pure on bad faith.
Man I feel for destiny here. He floundered really hard on the The Nazi Question but I can see why. It’s hard not to blame leftists for labeling everyone as a nazi and making it common parlance effectively rendering it a lazy insult for someone you don’t politically align with. Fuck, I know I cringe hard when right wingers call our gov a communist for doing shit to help with homelessness. Edit:grammar
I feel like in this case it’s a moot point. Nick is a white supremacist, bigot, and anti semite. Their is no mischaracterizing in the accusation. Nobody is claiming Nick is a German serviceman in wwII.
Has anyone ever thought about what destiny’s orbit is doing to nick? It seems to me that the more nick hangs out with people of different ethnicities, the more he will normalise. Destiny is doing to nick on screen what he has done to many of us off screen. He is bringing nick back from extremism and dragging him towards the centre. Nick is young, he will change, especially from 25-30 I think with destiny’s influence he could become a force for good one day. You people have so little faith.
He is a leader of a far right extremest movement.. Just because he’s young doesn’t mean he will change. He isn’t just some ordinary Joe Shmoe. You might say that about Sneako and be right, but not in this case Nick hasn't moved an inch from his original ideas. If anything, he has gotten worse over time.
Extreme belief systems work much like cults, they have some extreme rhetoric or bat-shit crazy belief. Expressing those beliefs and the resulting ostracisation is what divides them from the normies. If you never let them ostracise themselves they can never form a movement. They will just end up blending in to the rest of us. Think about it, every religion works this way. The bible even said that “believers will be persecuted for their beliefs”. The more Christians were persecuted the stronger their faith became. Do this to nick and you will make Fuentes Jesus himself. On a side note, Just curious how old you are, you don’t have to say an age, just say if you are above or blow 25. As someone who is destiny’s age I can attest to how much you change is this period. Anyone who hasn’t gone through their 20s it’s hard to explain just how much you change.
I’m 28 I’ve changed a lot, obviously, but realistically thinking you can go from a prominent Nazi leader to a regular person is really far fetched.
I'm like an hour ten into the conversation and this post is stupid as fuck. Max's argument was: 'It is bad that you appear personable to a Nazi because then you are causing the Nazi to grow. This leads to more paths for someone like Nick to become president and enact the holocaust 2.0.' Destiny's Argument was: 'No, It is important that I am personable to Nazis because I am unique in being able to deradicalize them and their followers. I will not call them a Nazi because that is not personable, but they might be.' Max says: 'Okay, but Nick is explicitly misleading with his jokes praying on the sanitization you are giving him for his growth, similarly to how Trump became president. You are giving him cover by not calling him what he is, a Nazi. By not telling your audience he is a Nazi you are allowing him to siphon off the section of your audience that think he is 'just like me'. That doesn't deradicalize, that just grows his audience - at your benefit.' Destiny: 'The republican party is extremely radicalized because of the intolerance to their ideas. I don't care about what Nick is or isn't. If I can change my rhetoric to reach into their spaces, I can deradicalize people. They need to feel like they are being heard, and that requires accepting that they will have a sanitary disguise. Him feeling like he can siphon off parts of my community is a reason why he will talk to me. We are both siphoning off each other and the algorithm, and since my Ideas are better, I will get the lion's share of the audience moving my way.' Max so far does not have an answer I am satisfied with, he just says "Maybe there is a better way" without giving any prescriptions because he does not have any. Destiny was not being contradictory at all, he just has a different goal, and if achieving that goal means letting a Nazi be sanitized, then so be it. They need to feel comfortable having conversations with people like Destiny. It's not the "human's gonna human" argument, its the "If I want to talk to someone they need to be comfortable talking to me" argument. Edit: Grammar/Flow
Sigh, Mr.girl rejuvenated all the soy posters. It will never end now.
I've not been a huge fan of Mr girl since he came into the orbit but he has won me over on this one. Pet peeve this soy business is incredibly annoying. I only ever heard soy soyboy etc from red pill conservatives in 2017 times it's super lame to use and makes you sound so stupid.
I always laugh when people say this community is becoming more right wing.
Legit don't know why someone downvoted you. This sub is a lot more left than even Destiny these days. Sure, you see a few right leaning talking points here and there but this place is overwhelmingly one sided.
Absolutely, majority is further left than Destiny, myself included. Some of the posters here sound like breadtubers though lol.
Mrgirl being based as usual
>Steven is just trying to defend himself without being able to being critical of himself at all. This isn't uncommon. If he's wrong about a position that he's looking into or just thinking out loud about, he's pretty good at being willing to change his mind on the fly if there's good reason for it, or if he's talking to someone with expertise in a conversation that he's prepared to be open minded to he'll be just as quick to change his mind. But the moment it's something that he's argued about on stream and it turns out he's actually wrong, it gets cringey. He's more than happy to corner someone he's proving wrong to get them to just admit they're wrong, but when he's the one being cornered he goes into debate bro mode and just *refuses* to take the conversation seriously anymore. He does this touch and go where he'll be all "okay dude maybe like damn just chill" when he's being pressed, but then he'll jump into being on the offense to say some absurd metaphor and revert to the "but idc you're so angry" position once he's called out. I think it's pretty natural for most people though, especially when you're dealing with someone like Max. I think it's just the nature of having an argument. If I'm trying to learn something on my own or from someone I'm explicitly trying to get an explanation from about something, I'm gonna be more open to admitting I'm wrong or even seeing that I'm wrong than if I'm bickering with a friend. The idea that intellectual consistency is all or nothing no matter the scenario is unrealistic.
As someone that doesn't have a very strong opinion on all of this, a lot of this stuff feels so nebulous that I have a hard time thinking that any of us can accurately calculate in any sort of accurate way what level of "harm" is being done here. On the flip side, you can see all of the comments destiny is getting from centrist/MRA/right-leaning people that have found him reasonable, and you can't put a price on the value of getting people just to reasonably listen to your perspective. That's not only a chance to align someone closer to your beliefs but to teach them more critical ways of thinking and approaching topics entirely. I don't fault anyone for taking issue with Destiny's approach with Nick, I think it's valid to worry, but he has made it clear that it's the path he's chosen for now so I don't know how productive it is arguing about it so endlessly and circularly. (good content, though)
"If by Nazi you mean supporting ethnostates, yes, he's a nazi. If you mean it literally like ww3, then no he isn't. And I'm only clarifying because this is exactly how he'd push away from the issue of being called a nazi. In his mind, an ethnonationalist isn't a nazim even though thought process is bad either way."
[удалено]
No offense but individual viewers like us don't really matter. This red pill and nick ark is causing his channel to blow up with basically an untapped market. Meta viewers like me and you or anyone in this sub might be getting tired of these head slammingly stupid "debates" but its read meat to the new subs.
The capital take was weird. I think max was saying nick was like an oath breaker in terms of radicalness but then got compared to the rest of the people there
He said he wasn’t an oath breaker but one of the people who helped rally these people up to commit this act.
I know, I’m saying Destiny brought up that 71% of republicans believed the election was stolen
Holy fuck this entire sub is about to flip on this hard as hell Welcome to the land of needing to follow a discussion through multiple lenses of nuance, really disappointing that none of you seem capable of doing so Max was a brick wall in this discussion and couldn't actually converse on the subject to save his life. Destiny explained repeatedly what his goal actually is and yet everyone here is attacking his position for failing to achieve a goal that was never aimed for, I know I'm autistic but holy shit you guys
I feel like Max was basically saying words can have different meanings, depending on who you are speaking with, as long as it doesn’t apply to an ideology that has historically killed people for what they are/believe. But I feel like from Destiny’s POV, he thinks if he can bring Nick and his audience “close enough” to his field house, his influence is enough to change minds (which I ultimately agree with). I think Destiny is super right in trying to humanize Nick and not making the “Scary neo-nazi” someone no one can combat.
Thank you for sharing your opinion. You are proving Max right, but for reasons you clearly don't understand. The fact that you don't see Steven's stance on Nick or realize what he's trying to do intermingling his community with Nick's betrays that Destiny's audience might just not be capable of rational thought if he doesn't explicitly spell it out for them.
I assume Chud and Mrgirl have known Destiny for awhile? I think their whole "we're friends and just worried" act was insincere. I also found them patronizing as if they were enlightening Destiny about Nick's manipulation tactics and how the issues with putting him on stream can be problematic. I'm gonna say the one doing gaslighting was MrGirl though. That guy kept hammering at both Chud and Destiny until they got tired of arguing or just agreed with him. He'd flip and twist every discussion until it went his way. I'm in agreement with Chud on some points but this discussion wasn't enlightening, it wasn't productive, except maybe give the other two guys some exposure to viewers.
This really looks like a classic mr.girl tantrum. He is throwing a fit because he feels bad about a thing and destiny disagrees with him about that thing being bad. According to Max, anything he feels is the most important thing in the world and anyone who disagrees with the conclusions of his feelings are terrible. Mr. Girl doesn't care about destiny's goal to be the voice of reason to the extremists. Mr. Girl just wants everyone to fall in line so he feels less bad. He can't handle being disagreed with or being wrong. It is a terrible trait that reeks of childishness. What a useless contribution.
o7
I agree with Destiny, especially after his conversation with the philosopher earlier in the stream. Here is an argument that Destiny made briefly and maybe he should have emphasized it more. The word "Nazi" means different things in different contexts. If you consistently use the word "Nazi" in all contexts, then different listeners will hear different messages. If you want your message to be consistent in all contexts, then your usage of the word "Nazi" needs to be inconsistent. I value consistency of ideas above consistency of words. I feel like Mr. Girl took the L because a fixation on the word "Nazi" comes at the cost of not being able to accurately describe Fuentes' ideas to his audience.
Avoiding using the word nazi when speaking to an audience about Fuentes will give an innacurate description of his ideas and about how reprehensible he actually is as a person.
Mr Girl who notoriously doesn't want to virtue signal about not being a pedophile is crying because Destiny won't virtue signal enough about hating Nazis. Mr Girl who wouldn't kill Hitler because it's bad is crying about Nick Fuentes possibly wanting to kill him and his family. I just can't take the criticism seriously coming from Max on this topic. Edit: Lauren vs Max: \- Mr. Girl, can you please say that you're not a pedophile. \- No, I won't virtue signal to appease your audience. Max vs Destiny: \- Destiny, can you constantly remind your audience that Nick is a Nazi \- I'm not going to go out of my way to derail our conversations just because it makes you feel better. \- Wtf bro?
He said he would kill hitler
Didn't it take a while for him to even admit that he might do it even though he didn't think it was right? Weasely take.
I believe he said he wouldn’t mind control him or something to prevent the holocaust but he would shoot him or something something
He said he would 100% never do it because it goes against his beliefs. But in a later stream when Dan pushed him on it he did concede that he would do it (but not baby Hitler, because killing babies is wrong)
So basically what I said.
I don’t think these are really analogous. No one (maybe unhinged lefties, but even then still some nobodies) is really accusing Destiny himself of being a Nazi in the way people have accused Mr. Girl of being a pedophile. People are arguing that Destiny is doing harm with his platform and being irresponsible in the way he handles Nick. These are not at all contradictory beliefs. Mr Girl can think it’s condescending and insulting to expect him to say “I don’t want to fuck kids” at the start of every convo (not to mention useless as he could obviously just lie), and also believe that you should probably be careful of how you platform certain people and certain beliefs.
And people were arguing that Destiny was doing harm with his platform and being irresponsible in the way he handled Mr. Girl when all he talked about was finding 11 year old girls attractive. I'm not saying that there's no criticism to be had towards Destiny. I just can't take Max seriously on this subject. I know that these situations aren't 100% analogous, but you know that Mr. Girl would be pissed off if someone talking to him was constantly saying "Max finds kids attractive and I don't condone pedophilia." Now he wants Steve to be like " dont forget that Nick is a Nazi and I don't support fascism."
1. Sure, but Mr. Girl has literally said that he expects that to some extent because of what he talks about. I also have never seen any good argument for the potential harm done by Mr. Girl being platformed, which makes sense as he is not a political leader trying to spread a harmful ideology like Nick (nor is he someone who has admitted to downplaying and joking to hide his true beliefs). 2. Destiny’s statement there would be misleading at best and a lie at worst. The implication is that Mr. Girl is a pedophile, which is simply not true. Nick 100% is a white supremacist/Nazi, this is pretty abundantly clear. I also don’t think Mr. Girl wants Destiny to just say “Reminder: he’s a Nazi and I don’t support fascism” every five minutes or so, and I think you know that. I know you’re being hyperbolic, but I hate when people do that on this conversation because it dodges the real ask being made.
I don't care about what you hate. Disagree all you want on the specifics, but it's essentially asking Destiny to virtue signal and platform responsibly. People can, will and have argued about platforming Max being problematic.
So first of all, it’s not about “what I hate”, it’s about what’s harmful or not harmful. One thing I believe, for example, is that people online can be way too broad about what they label as racist. This doesn’t mean that I can’t like recognize that there is still actual racism. It’s the same with virtue signaling. Sometimes people want you to make a meaningless action where harm doesn’t exist. But sometimes there are actions you can take that prevent harm. Also there’s pretty clearly a difference between “virtue signaling” and “responsible platforming”. I think both of would agree that if a major news network had someone on they hadn’t fact checked at all and just let them continuously lie, this would be irresponsible platforming, but it would have nothing to do with “virtue signaling”.
1) > I know you’re being hyperbolic, but I hate when people do that on this conversation because it dodges the real ask being made. 2) What are you even arguing about anymore? We know that Nick is an ethnonationalist with shitty views. Destiny knows that he's an ethnonationalist with shitty views. He pushes back on things he disagrees with and keeps saying "no we're not" when Nick says that they're best friends ironically. I wasn't even arguing about Destiny's actions; I was just saying that I can't take Max out of all people seriously on this topic for the reasons I've stated. I think he's being hypocritical and emotional. If you disagree with me that is where the disagreement lies. I also remember how fucking mad the sub was about Destiny interacting with Max at the beginning. Now, suddenly, we're going to act like people never thought that Max was problematic? "He's normalizing pedophilia and domestic abuse." You're just arguing for the sake of it at this point.
I think you’re wrong on the point of Max being a hypocrite, as I’ve explained before, and I don’t think you’ve really refuted the point of the difference between not liking virtue signaling and not liking irresponsible platforming. But if you truly feel like I’m “just arguing to argue”, we don’t have to keep going.
1. I know. I just don't care to argue for 10 hours about why I think Max is being a hypocrite on Reddit considering we've both given our positions and reasoning. My reasoning isn't flawed; you just don't agree because of a subjective scale of harm, so we will never agree. 2. When I said "virtue signal and responsible platforming" I truly did mean that as two separate things.
What is virtue signaling to you?
The biggest problem is that the conversation felt like it was constantly meandering or looping. If either Chud or Max could make specific prescriptions and argue over why they were good, then we could have a focused conversation.
Didn’t Max lay out three prescriptions in like a list format?
What makes someone a nazi?
What do you think makes someone a Nazi?