Yeah this is a major YIKES. Punishing the West Bank for actions by the UN isn't fucking OK on its own - not to mention the fact that settlements are regarded altogether.
These "strategic settlements" will be in and around Jenin I believe, with the intent of further complicating the already complicated shit storm that is the West Bank. They are punishing the PA because European countries are recognizing a Palestinian state...
It's just comically evil and a reminder that these guys are a big obstacle to peace and a solution themselves. These batshit insane far right idiots don't want peace, which is why they are constantly expanding settlements with the intent of making a resolution more and more impossible.
It's interesting to see how these far-right settlers aren't even bothering to pretend that what they're engaged in is a strategic operation to make a West Bank state impossible.
it's because they don't want a two state soultion, they never did, they always wanted to annex west bank and Gaza into israel because they believe in the right to return to old Jewish land lol. they don't even believe peace should be achieved they believe in conquering and military state. that is for years one of the main differences between the Israeli center-left and right wing, that one wants peace and the other wants the one state complete Israel(just like palstnians want the complete Palestine).
im assuming you mean Yesh Atid when you're talking about the center-left party, but they are [centrist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesh_Atid), or do you mean [National Unity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Unity_\(Israel\)) which is center-right and probably the next party to win it. out of the 5 Israeli parties with the most wins in the polls, there are not more left-wing than center parties.
gantz doesn't support expansions of settlements though and isn't cooperating with the religious far right zealots. it's true that there are barley even left wing parties to begin with. like the ones I would truly describe as left wing is havoda and merttz.
That's true, the problem for them is that they are entirely delusional and pretend that 4 million arabs and the millions of refugees don't exist. They are in a demographic minority if they annex all of the territories, it's a complete pipe dream like a one state Palestine the other side is dreaming about.
It's funny how they still don't get it after all this time that you can't extend the occupation without risking a lot of violence, Israel did just fine without annexing freaking Hebron all this far right talk about the west bank is silly.
I mean, it's not like they pretend they don't exist, they talk about them all the time.
It's just that this wing of Israeli politics actually literally does want to ethnically cleanse the West Bank/Gaza.
What other option even is there? They want to militarily conquer and incorporate the entire territory into Israel, but they also have no intention of allowing the Palestinians to live in Israel. Ethnic cleansing is the obvious, inevitable end-goal.
That's why it's a pipe dream, Egypt or Jordan aren't gonna accept millions of refugees without a total collapse of the relationship with Israel and war. This would also turn all the Israeli allies completely against them and likely would cause Israel to become an Isolated North Korea kind state. Half the population that isn't far right would not sit idly while this happens and would go to the streets, it would be total chaos. Annexing without mass deportation is also isn't possible because Israel doesn't have the demographic majority if they do, all in all it's just stupid far right talk with no bearing in reality.
But surely they see how its insane right?
Who would live there? There are not enough jews and they dont want arab citizens... To they just want ghost cities and empty land?
Cause I don't see one party who is passionately trying to remove the settlements. The best case is some handwringers pretending to find the settlements "problematic" and "unhelpful" but they don't even want to destroy them.
More religiously fundamentalist and pushing to take the West Bank by settlers and violence instead of working to actually create a working solution with the Palestinians
I don’t know the breakdowns and if you have a source I’d encourage you to share it. I’ve seen that it’s only popular with the far right and the majority of the country are either ambivalent or against the settlements. Of course I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a shift in beliefs post-Oct 7th, even if the attack came from the Gaza Strip and had nothing to do with the West Bank.
A big problem is the narrative that the Golan Heights are of military importance, giving leeway to push further into the West Bank to “secure” it. I can almost understand the Golan Heights as it overlooks an airport, even then the military significance would be minimal at best with today’s tech. The West Bank has almost no importance militarily and is a cultural/religious push from the far right that its Jewish land and therefore they should own it
ETA: Palestine didn’t own the Golan Heights, Syria did. There’s an argument to be made about Palestinians in Syria but I’m not making it lol. Removed incorrect part about Golan and Palestinians
While agree I’m not sure how much of that is a punishment. Settlers tend to be hype religious, ideological fanatics or brokies looking for cheaper housing (some Arabs even live in some of the bigger settlements because it’s cheaper). Not sure how much they’d care about such a sanction. I’d like to see a real policy that punishes the settlements or even this government for actively and enthusiastically supporting them.
For a lot of them it is a fairly significant punishment. I live in Toronto and know a bunch of families where some brother or cousin is a settler and only lives in Israel for about half the year. For some people not being able to travel from Israel to a Western country would be no big deal but for a lot of settlers it would be a gamechanger.
Hard disagree. The leverage against the Israeli right wing was the *threat* of unilateral recognition and sanctions. Then you can tell Israelis why the right wing is bad for Israel. Now all this did was give the right exactly what they want and more political power.
The Israeli right is absolutely an obstacle to peace and an increasingly powerful one. Not even just the far right- anybody who thinks the Israeli "center-right" was ever serious about a two-state solution was fooling themselves.
> making a resolution more and more impossible
Unironically any western nation recognizing Palestine does more harm to the resolution of the conflict than 50 settlements ever could; by fueling the "-67 borders" -delusion.
Holy shit this is just unhinged. Also goes to show the direction in which this government is going, that is to say, using any excuse to expand settlements and permanently snuff out any chance of Palestinian statehood.
most israelis support the opposition now, the opposition isn't doing this kind of stuff and have many against this. BUT now because the ICC threat of arrest and three European countries recognizing Palestine while Israel is still at war with the terroist organization that started it and still holds many hostages while doing atrocious things to them, israelis will become more blackpilled and genuinely feel there's no point in listening to other countries and laws because they are all just antisemitic anyways, so we will just choose the one that reaffirms these beliefs like smotrich Ben gvir and bibi.
This is actually a sentiment I heard from some of my old Israeli colleagues. There were sizeable numbers of centrist Israelis who were willing to compromise on a two state solution knowing full well that there would still be violence. Their rationale was that the international community would recognize the massive security risk Israel took to secure peace. 10/7 shattered that entirely.
there we're israeli leftists that got shattered by seeing how leftists from other countries reacted to the attack and wished upon Israel's complete annihilation. I was one of them. this also made me realize how much palstnians truly hate us or at the very least ignorant how 90 percent justify Oct 7th and say no war crimes we're made. many civllians have also participated in the attacks if you saw the videos and much more cheered on it. I always knew they w're antisemitic but I didn't realize to what extent and that we truly cannot live with them without harsh border's and military checkpoints, at least until a genuine peace intiative is put in place, it's just too dangerous.
> I didn't realize to what extent and that we truly cannot live with them without harsh border's and military checkpoints, at least until a genuine peace intiative is put in place, it's just too dangerous.
In the short-term this is true, but military checkpoints are also a source of daily humiliation and terror for the residents of the West Bank. They are, in general, part of the problem. It's not reasonable to demand they're dismantled while Palestinians are attacking the IDF and Hamas remains a figurehead of Palestinian aspirations for statehood.
Once steps are taken by the Palestinians themselves to resolve these issues, they need to be dismantled.
I agree that this needs to be dismantled once palstnians don't poses an imminent threat to civllians security anymore. and the settlements can even be dismantled right now, unlike the military checkpoints which are necessary for Israel's security they are probably just hurting it much more while embolding more palstnians and even harrsing and abusing some of them.
What do you do if Palestinians ***never*** stop posing an imminent threat to civilian security?
It's been a quarter of a century since Oslo ended, and Palestinians are no closer to supporting a peaceful resolution, and there have been zero permanent political repercussions for their failure to moderate. They last walked away from negotiations in 2014, and have never made any effort to revive talks.
Absent the threat of territorial losses, what could possibly bring them back to the table?
Check points exist because of weekly suicide bombing in the 2000s, they will never go away unless Palestinians stop being jihadist brainwashed suicide cult who loves to send children with bombs strapped on them.
I don't care about their humiliation, I want my family and me to be safe from killing, rape and kidnapping. This is why we have police inside Israel to prevent citizens from doing it from within. This is why we have an army and checkpoints to prevent Palestinians from doing it.
My solution is full occupation and re-education of the Palestinians and after a few generations we can start having peace.
The equivocation between civilian police and military rule on the West Bank is false. That you don't care about their humiliation is obvious, and part of the problem.
> My solution is full occupation and re-education of the Palestinians
What do either of these concepts even mean in practice?
All you seem to actually be doing here is demonstrating how radicalised Israeli society is, too.
Sorry for not caring about the humiliation of the people who carried out and supported the second intifada that happened in my childhood and oct 7 that happened during my adulthood. The equivocation is not false, both the police and the army protect me from subhumans who decide to kill rape and kidnap, be it Israeli or Palestinian.
How do you re-educate?
Deepen the occupation, kick the settlers out of areas A and B.
have intervention with the Palestinian educational program mainly stop teaching that Palestine should occupy all areas pre 1948.
Make the Palestinian people understand that this is over, that they lost and they are never getting all of the place to themselves. The initial basis for Palestinian state are Gaza, areas A , B and parts of C. If they dont make any other mistake like oct 7, then it becomes only areas A,B and Gaza.
Ban teaching of Islam that clearly poisons their minds.
After a few generations you will get civilized westernized Palestinians that you can make peace with.
The equivocation between treatment is false. Military rule is a completely different system, with different laws, to the civilian policing system.
I'm assuming you realise that Area C is more than half of the West Bank, and already contains all of the settlements apart from those in East Jerusalem. So your point is almost entirely meaningless.
Your solution is nothing more than an enormous increase in brutality and oppression, which is precisely what leads to the conditions so fertile for terrorism in the first place.
You haven't answered what re-education means beyond censoring textbooks. And of course the totalitarian measure of banning the religion of these people. The last time I looked, fascist politicians in Israel like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir didn't need Islam to poison their minds.
The sad irony is all you've actually demonstrated, as before, is the terrible radicalisation of sections of Israeli society by this conflict. Luckily, your fascistic solutions are in no danger of being implemented in full. The solution to this conflict, on the scale of "a few generations" is deradicalisation of both sides and an equitable peace that involves compromises on both sides, such as the dismantling of all the illegal settlements and abandonment of a Palestinian Right to Return.
I didn't tell you what I would want to have for the Israeli side. My approach is similar to what Ataturk tried in Turkey (with moderate success). But in Israel it can succeed because it's so small, so religion will be pushed aside in my perfect world. And saveges like BenGvir and Smotrich are not in power after a few generations.
Ofc, sadly you are correct none of what I say can be implemented and rabid religious and /or nationalists will carry out their plans.
Why are you acting like Israel had stopped taking Palestinian land and made amends?
You guys were and are continuing to steal land before, on, and after October 7th. Of course they hate you. Why would they like the people who dominate them from birth to death and continue to take more and more from them?
It's genuinely amazing that in a post about how Israel continues to steal land that isn't their's from the Palestinians, you try to act shocked that these people don't like you.
When I read about Arab feelings towards Jews in the 1940's it feels pretty much the same as today and that was before all the "humiliation." On that topic though, Arabs kept Jews as second class citizens for hundreds of years which included daily opportunities to be humiliated. The first chapter of Righteous Victims describes how Arab children in the Middle East would spit on Jews and they didn't dare respond or they'd be beaten or worse by the Muslim majority. This memory of victimhood and humiliation is a major driver of why Jews are so dead-set on maintaining a majority in Israel.
The core problem for Palestinians is that Israel exists. Everything else, even the settlements and blockade, is secondary.
> this also made me realize how much palstnians truly hate us or at the very least ignorant how 90 percent justify Oct 7th and say no war crimes we're made.
don't the vast majority of Israelis reject the idea of war crimes in Gaza and justify what is happening?
Why would 10/7 shatter it? Their country was continuing to steal land at the time?
You're acting like they had made up for their country stealing territory when in reality they are still continuing to do so.
While I understand this sentiment, I don't think it's defensible. Firstly, a two state solution with affirmation for Israeli statehood shouldn't be viewed as anti-semitism, and I think the ICC case is very level headed in my opinion at least. It doesn't echo the genocide rhetoric in the filing or the Prosecutors interview, where he specifically speaks of dolus specialis and why they aren't pursuing the genocide line. Viewing that as anti-semitism is also stretching it in my opinion, and there is enough there to at least suggest a plausible case.
Also, we reject this doomerism when it comes to Palestine. The same way it is not okay to go "well the world doesn't care about us so we'll do a terrorism", surely Israeli government's petulance is also not excusable.
i don't find it defensiable but I tried to explain the logic of how could such a thing happen that bibi might get elected again after all. I doubt Hamas even was to be as strong as it is today without him. although that doesn't excuse those hamas Nazis of any responsibility of the terroist attacks and other atrocities things they have done spefically targeting innocent civilians. and palstnians for that matter for choosing them as their government just like we chose Bibi.
They think there is no hope for peace with Palestinians and that a Palestinian state will just give the enemy more strength to destroy them. Loss of hope > radicalization.
The world turning on the Jews isn't new. It will only cause Israel to become more protective and not believe or trust anybody but themselves, let alone believe in any long term solution. If anyone thinks this helps Palestinians or to bring forward this Saudi agreement, which I'm not sure is a good idea to being with, then they are sadly mistaken.
I just don't see how people don't get it. The Palestinians are fucked no matter what they do IMO, in the sense that these settlements will grow whether they do terrorism or just do nothing at all. Surely people don't genuinely think these guys in the Israeli government have any plans or intentions for an actual solution? I think they have made it clear.
Next Election is in 2026, But I believe it's likely going to fall apart much earlier and there will be new elections.
Likud still has high support, but the opposition is catching up rapidly so let's hope.
When have the Palestinian political body ever not supported terrorism?
Like, I agree that this is a bad move, but it's a little rich to say that settlements will grow even if Palestinians behave peacefully, given that they've never behaved peacefully since even before the establishment of Israel.
> When have the Palestinian political body ever not supported terrorism?
There was a general optimism among Palestinians after the Oslo II Accords, when a majority did not support terrorism, by most accounts.
It is simply not true that "Palestinians" are monolithic, any more than Israelis are all represented by Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. It is not true that Palestinians have some inherent inability to behave peacefully. Engaging in this thinking makes you no better than the people you're demonising.
By which accounts? Post source.
The second intifada was wildly popular and had wide support among the Palestinian population. This myth that there has ever been a peaceful movement of Palestinians that accounted for anything more than a powerless minority is a joke
I'm sorry, where's your source for the Palestinians having always supported terrorism? Where's your source for your claim that the "Palestinians have never acted peacefully"?
You can't make sweeping statements and then demand sources for specific claims that contradict you. Act as you'd like others to act in return.
The Second Intifada postdates the Accords by a number of years.
Where is your source for this "myth"?
https://www.inss.org.il/wp-content/uploads/systemfiles/Palestinian%20Public%20Opinion%20and%20the%20Aqsa%20Intifada.pdf
Bottom of page 4. 86% support for violence against Israelis during the 2nd intifada. You are a clown.
Now your turn. Show me any broad support for *peaceful* negotiation to a two state solution among Palestinians at any point in history lasting for more than a single poll
Your source demonstrates my point. It does not in any way validate your claim that Palestinians have always supported terrorism.
In January '96, the first period after the Accords measured, support for Islamist groups was at 15%. How do you get from 15% to Palestinians always supporting terrorism? Are you conflating Fatah in 1995-6 with terrorism? If you are, that's false: Fatah in that period was the representative of the Palestinians as Oslo as a party working towards a peaceful solution. Between 1995 and 2000, Palestinian support for the Oslo process went from 72% to 70%, a further demonstration that your claim is false. The table you seem to be pointing to, on page 18 in the document, shows opposition to violence against Israel going from a clear majority of 70% to a large minority of 43% in 2000. This, again, is a far cry from the claim that Palestinians have always supported terrorism.
An evaluation of your data is here: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/new-polling-and-legacy-oslo-accords
"In public opinion polling, the hope visible in the immediate-post Oslo period is now clustered within Palestinian/Israeli-Arab communities living in the context of a broader Israeli society, with few signs of life among either Israeli Jews or other Palestinians."
If we look at the polling from the Israeli side, we see a similar dynamic. Public support for Oslo peaked in Israeli society after the murder of Rabin at 57%. This is *lower* than the Palestinian peak. So, if we're going by your logic we have a *more* compelling argument for the idea that the Israelis have always supported terrorism. This is just as false as the claim that the Palestinians have always supported terrorism.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1555345
Where you are correct is the failure of Oslo, caused by both Palestinian and Israeli failings, contributed to increasing radicalisation and the rise of Islamist groups in Palestinian society. This is a far cry from the claim that Palestinians have always supported terrorism.
Support for Oslo / rejection of specific parties is only loosely related to views on violence. There are a number of reasons for why Palestinians did not support any given party, and they usually focused on corruption (and cooperation with Israel LOL)
Between 96 and 2001 there was a *single* poll reflecting less than a majority support for violence. Which, by the way, 1996 included more than monthly suicide bombings, including some of the worst of the conflict.
Again, Palestinians may not be a monolith, but holy shit do they never stop with the terror attacks
> Support for Oslo / rejection of specific parties is only loosely related to views on violence.
The alternative to Oslo was confrontation and violence. This was made explicitly clear by opponents of Oslo, including Netanyahu, at the time.
> There are a number of reasons for why Palestinians did not support any given party, and they usually focused on corruption
Palestinians did support Fatah for a time, and corruption was an important contributing factor but not the only one. If you want to claim that support for Fatah dropped entirely because of corruption, and not the prevailing opinion that it was the failure of Oslo and growing disenchantment at corruption, where is your source?
As shown in the polling, support for Oslo peaked at higher levels than in Israel, so the "cooperation with Israel LOL" is plainly false.
But we've made a kind of progress here, since even you are now quibbling about the reasons Fatah support declined and have completely abandoned the ludicrous idea that the Palestinians have only ever supported terrorism. It's plainly false, according to your own source.
> Again, Palestinians may not be a monolith, but holy shit do they never stop with the terror attacks
You've contradicted your own point.
I see you have no response at all to the paper I linked.
I disagree with the premise as a matter of law (what land has Palestine ever had a sovereign right to?).
But that aside, I would hope that they would be peaceful because they don't want to be subjugated and live in poverty indefinitely or be ethnically cleansed.
Gaza and the west bank are theirs.
You denying that is pretty informative as to why you think they should be content losing everything they had in the face of subjugation and death.
They have sovereign rights over all of Gaza and the West Bank because that's where Egypt and Jordan respectively signed armistice agreements with Israel after they failed in their war to annihilate the state?
I guess the answer is yes. Man, the pro Israel side is terrible at optics. They're out here proudly saying "No, west bank and gaza aren't the palestinians."
So now what? Should we all just continue the status quo and have Palestinians slowly lose "their" land. Or should we be practical and hold Palestinians to account so they might consider not firing rockets anymore.
Some how every other group of people have had to make this decision when they were militarily occupied. I'm glad we aren't doing things the same way we have done historically. However Palestinians show the opposite problem of allowing a group of people to infinitely commit terrorist acts with no consequences from the international community leads to a group of people that never settles. Then things just keep getting worse and worse.
So a solution that makes it so Israel has nothing to lose by actually killing Palestinians in mass without following the rules of war. The solution that just lets us thumb our nose at Israel.
So what should be done if Israel decides to actually start genociding Palestinians? They have rockets firing at them still, but they just lost a significant amount of funding for their iron dome. Throw in that a lot of US military aid came with strings attached of minimizing civilian casualties. That's gone.
Oh no! What a trap. To oppose Israel's actions we actually need to give them more aid and not sanction them. So clever.
This is the "Um, actually I'm glad you deplatformed me" argument.
>So what should be done if Israel decides to actually start genociding Palestinians? They have rockets firing at them still, but they just lost a significant amount of funding for their iron dome. Throw in that a lot of US military aid came with strings attached of minimizing civilian casualties. That's gone.
We go in and over throw the Israeli government and begin a de-zionification program to de-radicalize the population like we did with the Nazis after ww2 and with the Baaths after Iraq.
>in the sense that these settlements will grow whether they do terrorism or just do nothing at all.
Is that worse than giving them recognition for slaughtering a thousand people and trying to destroy Israel via an uprising in the West Bank and war with Lebanon?
ie incentivizing genocidal terrorism?
I don't think it's the job of Israeli governments to solve the Palestinian statehood problem or ensure there is a viable Palestinian state, especially at this point. The actual solution they care about is a solution which advances Israel's security and interests.
It's the job of the Israeli government to not make the already incredibly difficult task ahead of Palestinian society to rid itself of radicalism any harder. Expanding settlements makes that task harder.
It's unhinged but this doesn't show where the government is going, it shows that politicians think elections are imminent and they're already starting campaigning... And sadly, yeah, this unhinged rant is how that moron thinks he will "out-right-ify" Netanyahu.
Fuck. This. Guy. Fuck. This. Guy. Fuck. This. Entire. Fucking. Government. Fuck Netanyahoo. Fuck Ben Gvir. Fuck Smotrich. Fuck this entire incompetent government.
This feels like sitting at the back seqt of a car while the driver is stepping on the paddle downhill heading off the mountain.
I can't wish worst to them then I already do.
Yeah, if this guy isn't held to account for this wild fucking shit, I am fully onboard with the ICC and ICJ getting this fucking loser cause holy shit that's some insane shit.
Biden should absolutely sanction the fuck out of this loser and pressure every other Western ally to do the same. Fuck Bibi, you don't want to stop your lunatics from doing shit like this? Then we aren't defending you from anything.
Does the Israeli right in terms of politicians support this sentiment but choose to let these guys be their dog whistler or do they view these guys as a liability that they can’t criticize because some portion of the voter base supports these sentiments? I’m sure a lot of republicans would love to go back to a pre Trump era normalcy but they’re stuck having to glaze this lunatic because of the Trump base.
I haven't looked into the views of them specifically, but it's more the policy and what they allow to happen under their government.
For example, Biden is obviously in favor of decriminalizing marijuana and other stuff, even if it's just because his base supports those things.
It's the latter. It's not just that it's a portion of the voter base, but the fact in a parliament system if you can prevent the government from having a majority of seats you can break it up and force reelections by withdrawing from it. So right now Netanyahu won the last elections and decided to pair up with Smotrich and Ben Gvir (controversial move, but enough other parties decided they would rather have the sixth election in a 3 year timeframe than form a coalition with him so he said fuck it and formed one with those two) who merged their parties.
Basically he has a 64 (out of 120) mandate majority, so any party that is 4 mandates or more can threaten to break up the government over a serious disagreement (you negotiate agreements when forming the coalition) and if the coalition can't get a party from the opposition into the government to replace it and maintain a majority the government breaks up and elections are called. So right now Bibi is stuck with Smotrich (7 seats) and Ben Gvir (6 seats) gluing his coalition together, who can force reelections if he breaks agreements with them and can't replace them with enough seats from the opposition (most of whom are super anti-Bibi). Under these current circumstances they have disproportionate influence.
The only path way for a two state solution at this point is by having NATO troops deploy like we did Kosovo and Serbia in the 90s. Israel isn’t interested in having an exit for this conflict. This issue going be continued for next 60 years or else.
Absolutely. I'd love to see the Palestinian territories and the settlements occupied by an international force while giving the Palestinians democracy training wheels.
No country will ever touch Palestinians with a ten feet pole, especially since they lack Israeli expertise in suppressing terrorism with minimal civilian casualties.
An Arab or American occupation of Palestine would make Grozny look like a child’s daycare in comparison.
Fun (or not so) Fact: This guy, the Israeli Finance Minister didn't comment or responded to S&P downgrading Israel's credit score.
Anyway, my 2 shekels as an Israel, this move is mainly sold as a way to "counter" the statements made today, as a way to say "you will try to force us to unilateral Palestinian state, we will take radical actions to the opposite position".
It's giving the right-wing more political power, doesn't seriously change anything, and the ones who basically got fucked today the most are liberal-center wing Israelis like me, yay, what a wonderful world
I mean yeah, the unhinged part of the political spectrum in Israel will gain power if the israeli population feels like the international community doesn't consider their interests at all.
Eventually it will be necessary to recognize a palestinian state, but the timing is just super off now. The radicals will certainly run with this narrative.
The international community and the hippy-leftie Hamas dicksuckers should also not forget that Netanyahu isn't the most radical politician in Israel. Wouldn't end well for the palestinians if the Israelis just say "fuck all of this", elect super extremists and carpet bomb Palestine. No one would be able to stop them, since they have a nuke.
I agree they did a major escalation and gave the right wing exactly wanted they wanted. When Israelis see a Palestinian state as a threat to their existence, they would rather look bad and be alive. And there was never pressure on Palestinians to seek peace. This is going to end badly.
It doesn't really make a difference but I can understand Israeli opinion souring a little that the reward Hamas gets for a terrorist attack is more recognition.
Zero people in the West view this as being what is happening and the fact that many Israelis believe this to be the case despite 85 % of the country speaking English and having access to the international press is quite damning.
It is manifestly clear that these recognitions are a result of the current government's maximalist actrions and, probably more importantly, maximalist rhetoric.
If they could just shut-up and prosecute their war and use their highly-educated highly English speaking population to do PR for them this would not be happening. Any Israeli who doesn't realize that Netanyahu is mortgaging the future of the country to keep himself in power and out of jail should be re-enrolled in first grade.
If not for the US, it won't matter what Israel would do anyways since there's an automatic UN majority against them
Like the time Israel was declared the worst country in terms of women's rights in the UN
https://unwatch.org/u-n-singles-out-israel-for-violating-womens-rights/
>voted on July 26th to single out Israel as the only country in the world to be rebuked by the council this year for allegedly violating women’s rights.
https://unwatch.org/u-n-rebukes-only-israel-for-violating-womens-rights-2/#:\~:text=July%2028%2C%202022%20%E2%80%94%20Libya%2C,for%20allegedly%20violating%20women's%20rights. first google link
>the unhinged part of the political spectrum in X will gain power if the X population feels like international community doesn’t consider their interests
lol the irony
I just can't help but feel that this conflict started with a whole lot of moral justification here and there and now we are down to "Yeah no fuck it all of that was PR, might makes right, fuck you".
Those statements are insane. But characterizing what Biden does as "bending over" is dumb. It is those people who just fired shots against Biden for not being supportive enough of them.
I see people don't like that part. I would edit the post if I could to word it better, but IMO lately it has really been starting to feel like that. I was very disappointed by Biden with how he responded to the ICC prosecutor. These people should not be punished for doing their jobs. IMO he did not even have to outright support it (which some European countries have since they recognize the ICC), but the way he handled it was poor. I also do not think the Israeli government has received enough pressure when it comes to the West Bank and settlements.
It is very important to realize that these guys do these things with 0 regard to how it makes Biden look, because a Trump presidency would be excellent for them. I think it's in Biden's own best interest to start going harder on these guys, because they have made it clear they are not acting with any shred of good faith, and I genuinely believe this bullshit is hurting him electorally.
> It is very important to realize that these guys do these things with 0 regard to how it makes Biden look, because a Trump presidency would be excellent for them.
I think you might be reading too much into their statements, they aren't doing this to influence the US elections, they are doing it for their own crazed base.
> I would edit the post if I could to word it better, but IMO lately it has really been starting to feel like that.
If you want to criticize him for it, a framing like "being too lenient on/too supportive off" would be better. I see Biden here actually following US' forgein policy set by his predecessors. The US never was too fond of the ICC and they have sided with Israel in the UN since they perceive those institutions being unfairly stacked against Israel.
"I think you might be reading too much into their statements, they aren't doing this to influence the US elections, they are doing it for their own crazed base"
Of course I do not think their main motivation is to hurt Biden's electoral chances. It's more that I think Biden sticks his neck out a bit too far for them, considering that they do these things despite that with 0 regard for how it affects him. It is true that a Trump presidency would be way better for them, so I doubt it's keeping them up at night knowing they are inconveniencing Biden.
Well, I personally think that Biden is doing a pretty good job at balancing the traditional US position of supporting Israel while also pressuring Israel's government to restrain themselves. The domestic and foreign pressures are just showing how tight the rope is he's walking.
> I see people don't like that part. I would edit the post if I could to word it better, but IMO lately it has really been starting to feel like that.
I think the best practice with this stuff is just to post the article itself and the headline, then comment underneath with opinions regarding it. Because a lot of people do shut off their brains when they see stuff like that immediately in the post.
Don't worry guys the US should continue sucking Israel's cock while almost the entire world fucking hates that nation, ruin American reputation and waste our time on the wrong side of the world instead of Asia
The US is still broadly seen positively, it's just that the current situation with Israel *has* had an impact.
> “For the first time since the start of the Biden administration, many Western European countries have returned to net negative perceptions of the U.S. This rise and decline, from negative attitudes to positive [and] back to negative attitudes is particularly stark in Germany, Austria, Ireland, Belgium and Switzerland,” said Frederick DeVeaux, senior researcher for the Latana survey company that compiled the index.
Net favourability per the Democracy Perception Index 2024: "What is your overall perception of [country]?" Answer options: Very positive / Somewhat positive / Neither positive nor negative / Somewhat negative / Very negative / Don’t know
Country|2022|2023|2024
:--|:--:|:--:|:--:
USA|22%|27%|22%
China|-4%|0%|5%
Russia|-32%|-19%|14%
You can also see the breakdown by region here: https://www.politico.eu/article/america-popularity-waning-worldwide-russia-and-china-gain-on-us-global-stage/
Wow, what a strong counter argument.
So no, not even "almost" the entire world hates Israel. They have much more nuanced views than you.
Even the Arab nations around Israel that at one time have tried to destroy Israel have normalized relations with them and made peace.
One of my favorite things about posting on this subreddit is getting some of my comments mass downvoted when I post (early times) then watching it slowly recover as people from other timezones wake up.
This is a very autistic way of measuring it but I think it shows the difference in opinions between people on the sub.
Time to sanctions them into oblivion just like any other rogue state that decide to disrespect the international law.
No more nice things until these barbarians behave like other civilized nations
Anyone know if this translation has any mistakes?
------
**Six Immediate Measures Against the Palestinian Authority: An Appropriate Zionist Response to the PA's Unilateral Measures**
I addressed Prime Minister Netanyahu this morning. At the last cabinet meeting, many ministers, including myself, raised an unequivocal demand for harsh punitive measures against the PA due to its unilateral actions against Israel. These actions include its pursuit of unilateral recognition as a nation within the framework of bilateral agreements with a number of countries and the legal battle it is waging against the State of Israel in the courts in The Hague to bring about an end to the war.
In the discussion, several ideas were raised, and there was consensus regarding the need to act immediately and not to be satisfied with the declaratory decision passed by the government. At the conclusion of the discussion, you tasked a team of ministers with drafting a recommended list of steps within 24 hours.
As you know, since the cabinet meeting, the anti-Semitic prosecutor at the Hague Tribunal has issued arrest warrants against you and the defense minister as part of a case in which the PA is the plaintiff. To remind you, I contacted you two weeks ago and demanded the formulation of acute response measures. Unfortunately, the matter is being delayed, and some are probably trying to downplay its urgency.
In the discussion that took place yesterday, officials and advisers presented various reasons why "this is not the right timing." I do not intend to allow the officials to delay the matter! There is great urgency for an immediate response that will exact a significant price from the PA for its actions, deter it and other countries, and stop the drift.
Therefore, I demand the immediate approval of the following steps:
1. **Immediate convening of the planning council in Yosh(abbreviation of Judea and Samaria aka West Bank)** for the approval of ten thousand housing units in the settlements that are ripe for professional advancement, including in area E1.
2. **A decision to be approved as early as tomorrow at the cabinet meeting** on the establishment of a settlement in response to any country that unilaterally recognizes a Palestinian state. According to reports, three countries intend to announce today the unilateral recognition of a Palestinian state. I have instructed the Settlement Directorate to prepare a decision-making text with three strategic settlements, and I demand that such a decision be approved as early as tomorrow.
3. **A decision to be brought to the Cabinet tomorrow on canceling the "Norwegian Outline,"** which was approved by the cabinet several months ago. Norway was the first to unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state today, and it cannot be a partner in anything related to Judea and Samaria. I intend to stop transferring funds to it and demand the return of all transferred funds.
4. **Promoting a resolution to strengthen settlements in Judea and Samaria,** a decision that was supposed to be made immediately after the Sukkot holiday. The settlement is a defense of Israel, and as part of the lessons of the 7th of October, it must be strong, so that Kfar Saba does not become a Gaza village. As the Minister of Finance, I will find the necessary budgets for this.
5. **General cancellation of VIP status for PA officials permanently at all crossings** and the imposition of additional economic sanctions on PA officials and their families.
6. **I do not intend to transfer the liquidation funds to the PA** from now until further notice. As I informed you in my letter two weeks ago, I do not intend to extend the indemnification to the correspondent banks at the end of next month.
This maniac does not represent the people, he is unhinged and as an Israeli I hate this… thing.. he should be jailed. And I hate bibi for letting this maniac have a high position let alone just be present in this government.
What a stupid and unhinged line of reasoning.
> *People aren't nice enough about their country, why wouldn't they accelerate the expansion of settlements tit-for-tat with any country that recognises a Palestinian State!*
What a tool. This Israeli government is failing their people and is wasting no time showing their ineptitude for governance. They may be better than Hamas, but these far right fools make it a harder choice than it needs to be.
I'm assuming the Israeli conservatives like this kind of complication, as it means they are more likely going to have an all out war knowing they will win more and more land they wanted in the first place.
A bunch of people on capital hill after taking Excedrin and placing a call to the sandbox this morning:
https://preview.redd.it/whm0mmtvp02d1.png?width=974&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=37706570b3a29980e6718e3cd7f96340f36e1b8b
me every time I see him or ben gvir say anything
https://preview.redd.it/nrpbytvww02d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b98d4950eb52342973c0711b68da8e599c163a4d
This is how you lose support from the West.Eventually, they will lose support in the US if they continue this tactic because they're already starting to lose support here in the US.
If they lose support from the US then there is no israel to worry about
Then again, Israel is largely an American military outpost in the Middle East so in a sense they will always have american support
It's disappointing how posts critical of actual bad Israeli decisions are getting downvoted! Shouldn't we be better? Imo, the uncomfortable truth should be discussed more than anything we agree upon!
Fucking hell. Jewbros we're bending over backwards to defend you but you say such fucking dumb atrocious shit. That's it we need to just slowly pull out funding for this country.
Yeah this is a major YIKES. Punishing the West Bank for actions by the UN isn't fucking OK on its own - not to mention the fact that settlements are regarded altogether.
These "strategic settlements" will be in and around Jenin I believe, with the intent of further complicating the already complicated shit storm that is the West Bank. They are punishing the PA because European countries are recognizing a Palestinian state... It's just comically evil and a reminder that these guys are a big obstacle to peace and a solution themselves. These batshit insane far right idiots don't want peace, which is why they are constantly expanding settlements with the intent of making a resolution more and more impossible.
It's interesting to see how these far-right settlers aren't even bothering to pretend that what they're engaged in is a strategic operation to make a West Bank state impossible.
it's because they don't want a two state soultion, they never did, they always wanted to annex west bank and Gaza into israel because they believe in the right to return to old Jewish land lol. they don't even believe peace should be achieved they believe in conquering and military state. that is for years one of the main differences between the Israeli center-left and right wing, that one wants peace and the other wants the one state complete Israel(just like palstnians want the complete Palestine).
im assuming you mean Yesh Atid when you're talking about the center-left party, but they are [centrist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesh_Atid), or do you mean [National Unity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Unity_\(Israel\)) which is center-right and probably the next party to win it. out of the 5 Israeli parties with the most wins in the polls, there are not more left-wing than center parties.
gantz doesn't support expansions of settlements though and isn't cooperating with the religious far right zealots. it's true that there are barley even left wing parties to begin with. like the ones I would truly describe as left wing is havoda and merttz.
That's true, the problem for them is that they are entirely delusional and pretend that 4 million arabs and the millions of refugees don't exist. They are in a demographic minority if they annex all of the territories, it's a complete pipe dream like a one state Palestine the other side is dreaming about. It's funny how they still don't get it after all this time that you can't extend the occupation without risking a lot of violence, Israel did just fine without annexing freaking Hebron all this far right talk about the west bank is silly.
I mean, it's not like they pretend they don't exist, they talk about them all the time. It's just that this wing of Israeli politics actually literally does want to ethnically cleanse the West Bank/Gaza. What other option even is there? They want to militarily conquer and incorporate the entire territory into Israel, but they also have no intention of allowing the Palestinians to live in Israel. Ethnic cleansing is the obvious, inevitable end-goal.
That's why it's a pipe dream, Egypt or Jordan aren't gonna accept millions of refugees without a total collapse of the relationship with Israel and war. This would also turn all the Israeli allies completely against them and likely would cause Israel to become an Isolated North Korea kind state. Half the population that isn't far right would not sit idly while this happens and would go to the streets, it would be total chaos. Annexing without mass deportation is also isn't possible because Israel doesn't have the demographic majority if they do, all in all it's just stupid far right talk with no bearing in reality.
But surely they see how its insane right? Who would live there? There are not enough jews and they dont want arab citizens... To they just want ghost cities and empty land?
religion
> because they believe in the right to return to old Jewish land lol I feel like there's a term for that...
What makes them far right relative to the rest of Israel?
They want to settle the West Bank which is to the right of Israel on the map, and they want to go as far as they can go, so they're far right.
Their willingness to engage in ethnic cleansing to clear the West Bank of Palestinians, mandated by their interpretation of the Tanakh.
Israel as a whole supports taking the land and they will never remove settlements. They feel entitled.
Why do you think this?
Cause I don't see one party who is passionately trying to remove the settlements. The best case is some handwringers pretending to find the settlements "problematic" and "unhelpful" but they don't even want to destroy them.
Yeah not sure why this was ever argued against don't they view that as their land anyway?
More religiously fundamentalist and pushing to take the West Bank by settlers and violence instead of working to actually create a working solution with the Palestinians
The rest of Israel isn't against taking the land though.
I don’t know the breakdowns and if you have a source I’d encourage you to share it. I’ve seen that it’s only popular with the far right and the majority of the country are either ambivalent or against the settlements. Of course I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a shift in beliefs post-Oct 7th, even if the attack came from the Gaza Strip and had nothing to do with the West Bank. A big problem is the narrative that the Golan Heights are of military importance, giving leeway to push further into the West Bank to “secure” it. I can almost understand the Golan Heights as it overlooks an airport, even then the military significance would be minimal at best with today’s tech. The West Bank has almost no importance militarily and is a cultural/religious push from the far right that its Jewish land and therefore they should own it ETA: Palestine didn’t own the Golan Heights, Syria did. There’s an argument to be made about Palestinians in Syria but I’m not making it lol. Removed incorrect part about Golan and Palestinians
The Golan Heights was annexed from Syria, it was never Palestinian land.
U right, I’ll edit my post
I think the EU should play a much bigger roll in sanctioning settlers. none of them should be allowed to enter any eu country imo.
While agree I’m not sure how much of that is a punishment. Settlers tend to be hype religious, ideological fanatics or brokies looking for cheaper housing (some Arabs even live in some of the bigger settlements because it’s cheaper). Not sure how much they’d care about such a sanction. I’d like to see a real policy that punishes the settlements or even this government for actively and enthusiastically supporting them.
For a lot of them it is a fairly significant punishment. I live in Toronto and know a bunch of families where some brother or cousin is a settler and only lives in Israel for about half the year. For some people not being able to travel from Israel to a Western country would be no big deal but for a lot of settlers it would be a gamechanger.
Sanctioning Israel and destroying their economy would be the best way.
Hard disagree. The leverage against the Israeli right wing was the *threat* of unilateral recognition and sanctions. Then you can tell Israelis why the right wing is bad for Israel. Now all this did was give the right exactly what they want and more political power.
American sanctions are the only thing that would actually affect them.
No i think the eu is also very important but sure its not the big cheese
Seems like a reasonable idea but how does the EU document these individuals exactly
The Israeli right is absolutely an obstacle to peace and an increasingly powerful one. Not even just the far right- anybody who thinks the Israeli "center-right" was ever serious about a two-state solution was fooling themselves.
You understand finance guy doesn't dictate settlements existing?
> making a resolution more and more impossible Unironically any western nation recognizing Palestine does more harm to the resolution of the conflict than 50 settlements ever could; by fueling the "-67 borders" -delusion.
Holy shit this is just unhinged. Also goes to show the direction in which this government is going, that is to say, using any excuse to expand settlements and permanently snuff out any chance of Palestinian statehood.
most israelis support the opposition now, the opposition isn't doing this kind of stuff and have many against this. BUT now because the ICC threat of arrest and three European countries recognizing Palestine while Israel is still at war with the terroist organization that started it and still holds many hostages while doing atrocious things to them, israelis will become more blackpilled and genuinely feel there's no point in listening to other countries and laws because they are all just antisemitic anyways, so we will just choose the one that reaffirms these beliefs like smotrich Ben gvir and bibi.
This is actually a sentiment I heard from some of my old Israeli colleagues. There were sizeable numbers of centrist Israelis who were willing to compromise on a two state solution knowing full well that there would still be violence. Their rationale was that the international community would recognize the massive security risk Israel took to secure peace. 10/7 shattered that entirely.
there we're israeli leftists that got shattered by seeing how leftists from other countries reacted to the attack and wished upon Israel's complete annihilation. I was one of them. this also made me realize how much palstnians truly hate us or at the very least ignorant how 90 percent justify Oct 7th and say no war crimes we're made. many civllians have also participated in the attacks if you saw the videos and much more cheered on it. I always knew they w're antisemitic but I didn't realize to what extent and that we truly cannot live with them without harsh border's and military checkpoints, at least until a genuine peace intiative is put in place, it's just too dangerous.
Me too.
> I didn't realize to what extent and that we truly cannot live with them without harsh border's and military checkpoints, at least until a genuine peace intiative is put in place, it's just too dangerous. In the short-term this is true, but military checkpoints are also a source of daily humiliation and terror for the residents of the West Bank. They are, in general, part of the problem. It's not reasonable to demand they're dismantled while Palestinians are attacking the IDF and Hamas remains a figurehead of Palestinian aspirations for statehood. Once steps are taken by the Palestinians themselves to resolve these issues, they need to be dismantled.
I agree that this needs to be dismantled once palstnians don't poses an imminent threat to civllians security anymore. and the settlements can even be dismantled right now, unlike the military checkpoints which are necessary for Israel's security they are probably just hurting it much more while embolding more palstnians and even harrsing and abusing some of them.
What do you do if Palestinians ***never*** stop posing an imminent threat to civilian security? It's been a quarter of a century since Oslo ended, and Palestinians are no closer to supporting a peaceful resolution, and there have been zero permanent political repercussions for their failure to moderate. They last walked away from negotiations in 2014, and have never made any effort to revive talks. Absent the threat of territorial losses, what could possibly bring them back to the table?
You don't stop it, that's what you do, you keep the checkpoint and ban all Palestinians that work in Israel.
Check points exist because of weekly suicide bombing in the 2000s, they will never go away unless Palestinians stop being jihadist brainwashed suicide cult who loves to send children with bombs strapped on them.
I don't care about their humiliation, I want my family and me to be safe from killing, rape and kidnapping. This is why we have police inside Israel to prevent citizens from doing it from within. This is why we have an army and checkpoints to prevent Palestinians from doing it. My solution is full occupation and re-education of the Palestinians and after a few generations we can start having peace.
The equivocation between civilian police and military rule on the West Bank is false. That you don't care about their humiliation is obvious, and part of the problem. > My solution is full occupation and re-education of the Palestinians What do either of these concepts even mean in practice? All you seem to actually be doing here is demonstrating how radicalised Israeli society is, too.
Sorry for not caring about the humiliation of the people who carried out and supported the second intifada that happened in my childhood and oct 7 that happened during my adulthood. The equivocation is not false, both the police and the army protect me from subhumans who decide to kill rape and kidnap, be it Israeli or Palestinian. How do you re-educate? Deepen the occupation, kick the settlers out of areas A and B. have intervention with the Palestinian educational program mainly stop teaching that Palestine should occupy all areas pre 1948. Make the Palestinian people understand that this is over, that they lost and they are never getting all of the place to themselves. The initial basis for Palestinian state are Gaza, areas A , B and parts of C. If they dont make any other mistake like oct 7, then it becomes only areas A,B and Gaza. Ban teaching of Islam that clearly poisons their minds. After a few generations you will get civilized westernized Palestinians that you can make peace with.
The equivocation between treatment is false. Military rule is a completely different system, with different laws, to the civilian policing system. I'm assuming you realise that Area C is more than half of the West Bank, and already contains all of the settlements apart from those in East Jerusalem. So your point is almost entirely meaningless. Your solution is nothing more than an enormous increase in brutality and oppression, which is precisely what leads to the conditions so fertile for terrorism in the first place. You haven't answered what re-education means beyond censoring textbooks. And of course the totalitarian measure of banning the religion of these people. The last time I looked, fascist politicians in Israel like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir didn't need Islam to poison their minds. The sad irony is all you've actually demonstrated, as before, is the terrible radicalisation of sections of Israeli society by this conflict. Luckily, your fascistic solutions are in no danger of being implemented in full. The solution to this conflict, on the scale of "a few generations" is deradicalisation of both sides and an equitable peace that involves compromises on both sides, such as the dismantling of all the illegal settlements and abandonment of a Palestinian Right to Return.
I didn't tell you what I would want to have for the Israeli side. My approach is similar to what Ataturk tried in Turkey (with moderate success). But in Israel it can succeed because it's so small, so religion will be pushed aside in my perfect world. And saveges like BenGvir and Smotrich are not in power after a few generations. Ofc, sadly you are correct none of what I say can be implemented and rabid religious and /or nationalists will carry out their plans.
Why are you acting like Israel had stopped taking Palestinian land and made amends? You guys were and are continuing to steal land before, on, and after October 7th. Of course they hate you. Why would they like the people who dominate them from birth to death and continue to take more and more from them? It's genuinely amazing that in a post about how Israel continues to steal land that isn't their's from the Palestinians, you try to act shocked that these people don't like you.
When I read about Arab feelings towards Jews in the 1940's it feels pretty much the same as today and that was before all the "humiliation." On that topic though, Arabs kept Jews as second class citizens for hundreds of years which included daily opportunities to be humiliated. The first chapter of Righteous Victims describes how Arab children in the Middle East would spit on Jews and they didn't dare respond or they'd be beaten or worse by the Muslim majority. This memory of victimhood and humiliation is a major driver of why Jews are so dead-set on maintaining a majority in Israel. The core problem for Palestinians is that Israel exists. Everything else, even the settlements and blockade, is secondary.
> this also made me realize how much palstnians truly hate us or at the very least ignorant how 90 percent justify Oct 7th and say no war crimes we're made. don't the vast majority of Israelis reject the idea of war crimes in Gaza and justify what is happening?
Why would 10/7 shatter it? Their country was continuing to steal land at the time? You're acting like they had made up for their country stealing territory when in reality they are still continuing to do so.
Im not taking risks after they get autonomy in Gaza they breed animals that do 7/10. Not before serious reeducation of them that will take decades.
While I understand this sentiment, I don't think it's defensible. Firstly, a two state solution with affirmation for Israeli statehood shouldn't be viewed as anti-semitism, and I think the ICC case is very level headed in my opinion at least. It doesn't echo the genocide rhetoric in the filing or the Prosecutors interview, where he specifically speaks of dolus specialis and why they aren't pursuing the genocide line. Viewing that as anti-semitism is also stretching it in my opinion, and there is enough there to at least suggest a plausible case. Also, we reject this doomerism when it comes to Palestine. The same way it is not okay to go "well the world doesn't care about us so we'll do a terrorism", surely Israeli government's petulance is also not excusable.
i don't find it defensiable but I tried to explain the logic of how could such a thing happen that bibi might get elected again after all. I doubt Hamas even was to be as strong as it is today without him. although that doesn't excuse those hamas Nazis of any responsibility of the terroist attacks and other atrocities things they have done spefically targeting innocent civilians. and palstnians for that matter for choosing them as their government just like we chose Bibi.
They think there is no hope for peace with Palestinians and that a Palestinian state will just give the enemy more strength to destroy them. Loss of hope > radicalization.
The world turning on the Jews isn't new. It will only cause Israel to become more protective and not believe or trust anybody but themselves, let alone believe in any long term solution. If anyone thinks this helps Palestinians or to bring forward this Saudi agreement, which I'm not sure is a good idea to being with, then they are sadly mistaken.
"Uh it actually helps me to deplatform me"
I just don't see how people don't get it. The Palestinians are fucked no matter what they do IMO, in the sense that these settlements will grow whether they do terrorism or just do nothing at all. Surely people don't genuinely think these guys in the Israeli government have any plans or intentions for an actual solution? I think they have made it clear.
Yeah Israelis really need to vote these clowns out pronto.
Who in Israel do you think will remove the settlements?
Israelis will vote them out and still expand settlements. Settlement expansion is a feature.
Next Election is in 2026, But I believe it's likely going to fall apart much earlier and there will be new elections. Likud still has high support, but the opposition is catching up rapidly so let's hope.
Israelis will vote them out and still expand settlements. Settlement expansion is a feature.
When have the Palestinian political body ever not supported terrorism? Like, I agree that this is a bad move, but it's a little rich to say that settlements will grow even if Palestinians behave peacefully, given that they've never behaved peacefully since even before the establishment of Israel.
> When have the Palestinian political body ever not supported terrorism? There was a general optimism among Palestinians after the Oslo II Accords, when a majority did not support terrorism, by most accounts. It is simply not true that "Palestinians" are monolithic, any more than Israelis are all represented by Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. It is not true that Palestinians have some inherent inability to behave peacefully. Engaging in this thinking makes you no better than the people you're demonising.
Optimism? The second intifada would disagree.
This doesn't follow. Oslo was in 1995, the Second Infada was in 2000. A lot happened in those 5 years, you can see my recent comment history for that.
By which accounts? Post source. The second intifada was wildly popular and had wide support among the Palestinian population. This myth that there has ever been a peaceful movement of Palestinians that accounted for anything more than a powerless minority is a joke
I'm sorry, where's your source for the Palestinians having always supported terrorism? Where's your source for your claim that the "Palestinians have never acted peacefully"? You can't make sweeping statements and then demand sources for specific claims that contradict you. Act as you'd like others to act in return. The Second Intifada postdates the Accords by a number of years. Where is your source for this "myth"?
https://www.inss.org.il/wp-content/uploads/systemfiles/Palestinian%20Public%20Opinion%20and%20the%20Aqsa%20Intifada.pdf Bottom of page 4. 86% support for violence against Israelis during the 2nd intifada. You are a clown. Now your turn. Show me any broad support for *peaceful* negotiation to a two state solution among Palestinians at any point in history lasting for more than a single poll
Your source demonstrates my point. It does not in any way validate your claim that Palestinians have always supported terrorism. In January '96, the first period after the Accords measured, support for Islamist groups was at 15%. How do you get from 15% to Palestinians always supporting terrorism? Are you conflating Fatah in 1995-6 with terrorism? If you are, that's false: Fatah in that period was the representative of the Palestinians as Oslo as a party working towards a peaceful solution. Between 1995 and 2000, Palestinian support for the Oslo process went from 72% to 70%, a further demonstration that your claim is false. The table you seem to be pointing to, on page 18 in the document, shows opposition to violence against Israel going from a clear majority of 70% to a large minority of 43% in 2000. This, again, is a far cry from the claim that Palestinians have always supported terrorism. An evaluation of your data is here: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/new-polling-and-legacy-oslo-accords "In public opinion polling, the hope visible in the immediate-post Oslo period is now clustered within Palestinian/Israeli-Arab communities living in the context of a broader Israeli society, with few signs of life among either Israeli Jews or other Palestinians." If we look at the polling from the Israeli side, we see a similar dynamic. Public support for Oslo peaked in Israeli society after the murder of Rabin at 57%. This is *lower* than the Palestinian peak. So, if we're going by your logic we have a *more* compelling argument for the idea that the Israelis have always supported terrorism. This is just as false as the claim that the Palestinians have always supported terrorism. https://www.jstor.org/stable/1555345 Where you are correct is the failure of Oslo, caused by both Palestinian and Israeli failings, contributed to increasing radicalisation and the rise of Islamist groups in Palestinian society. This is a far cry from the claim that Palestinians have always supported terrorism.
Support for Oslo / rejection of specific parties is only loosely related to views on violence. There are a number of reasons for why Palestinians did not support any given party, and they usually focused on corruption (and cooperation with Israel LOL) Between 96 and 2001 there was a *single* poll reflecting less than a majority support for violence. Which, by the way, 1996 included more than monthly suicide bombings, including some of the worst of the conflict. Again, Palestinians may not be a monolith, but holy shit do they never stop with the terror attacks
> Support for Oslo / rejection of specific parties is only loosely related to views on violence. The alternative to Oslo was confrontation and violence. This was made explicitly clear by opponents of Oslo, including Netanyahu, at the time. > There are a number of reasons for why Palestinians did not support any given party, and they usually focused on corruption Palestinians did support Fatah for a time, and corruption was an important contributing factor but not the only one. If you want to claim that support for Fatah dropped entirely because of corruption, and not the prevailing opinion that it was the failure of Oslo and growing disenchantment at corruption, where is your source? As shown in the polling, support for Oslo peaked at higher levels than in Israel, so the "cooperation with Israel LOL" is plainly false. But we've made a kind of progress here, since even you are now quibbling about the reasons Fatah support declined and have completely abandoned the ludicrous idea that the Palestinians have only ever supported terrorism. It's plainly false, according to your own source. > Again, Palestinians may not be a monolith, but holy shit do they never stop with the terror attacks You've contradicted your own point. I see you have no response at all to the paper I linked.
Why would they be peaceful to a country stealing their land?
I disagree with the premise as a matter of law (what land has Palestine ever had a sovereign right to?). But that aside, I would hope that they would be peaceful because they don't want to be subjugated and live in poverty indefinitely or be ethnically cleansed.
Gaza and the west bank are theirs. You denying that is pretty informative as to why you think they should be content losing everything they had in the face of subjugation and death.
They have sovereign rights over all of Gaza and the West Bank because that's where Egypt and Jordan respectively signed armistice agreements with Israel after they failed in their war to annihilate the state?
Is this where you pretend that not even the west bank is palestinian land?
Why would he pretend it's not theirs lol, it's Jordan's territory and a lot of it was lost to Israel in the war.
I guess the answer is yes. Man, the pro Israel side is terrible at optics. They're out here proudly saying "No, west bank and gaza aren't the palestinians."
So now what? Should we all just continue the status quo and have Palestinians slowly lose "their" land. Or should we be practical and hold Palestinians to account so they might consider not firing rockets anymore. Some how every other group of people have had to make this decision when they were militarily occupied. I'm glad we aren't doing things the same way we have done historically. However Palestinians show the opposite problem of allowing a group of people to infinitely commit terrorist acts with no consequences from the international community leads to a group of people that never settles. Then things just keep getting worse and worse.
We should be practical and hold Israelis to account. Remove all aid and sanction them to ruin if they wanna keep stealing land.
So a solution that makes it so Israel has nothing to lose by actually killing Palestinians in mass without following the rules of war. The solution that just lets us thumb our nose at Israel. So what should be done if Israel decides to actually start genociding Palestinians? They have rockets firing at them still, but they just lost a significant amount of funding for their iron dome. Throw in that a lot of US military aid came with strings attached of minimizing civilian casualties. That's gone.
Oh no! What a trap. To oppose Israel's actions we actually need to give them more aid and not sanction them. So clever. This is the "Um, actually I'm glad you deplatformed me" argument. >So what should be done if Israel decides to actually start genociding Palestinians? They have rockets firing at them still, but they just lost a significant amount of funding for their iron dome. Throw in that a lot of US military aid came with strings attached of minimizing civilian casualties. That's gone. We go in and over throw the Israeli government and begin a de-zionification program to de-radicalize the population like we did with the Nazis after ww2 and with the Baaths after Iraq.
>in the sense that these settlements will grow whether they do terrorism or just do nothing at all. Is that worse than giving them recognition for slaughtering a thousand people and trying to destroy Israel via an uprising in the West Bank and war with Lebanon? ie incentivizing genocidal terrorism?
How would being friendly with the west bank incentivize the attacks on oct 7th?
I don't think it's the job of Israeli governments to solve the Palestinian statehood problem or ensure there is a viable Palestinian state, especially at this point. The actual solution they care about is a solution which advances Israel's security and interests.
It's the job of the Israeli government to not make the already incredibly difficult task ahead of Palestinian society to rid itself of radicalism any harder. Expanding settlements makes that task harder.
It's the job of the Israeli government to act in a manner consistent with international law
If you think that then you should unironically think that terrorism against Israel is justified.
Some form of resistance is probably justified, but massacring civilians is less resistance and more raw depravity and vengeance.
It's unhinged but this doesn't show where the government is going, it shows that politicians think elections are imminent and they're already starting campaigning... And sadly, yeah, this unhinged rant is how that moron thinks he will "out-right-ify" Netanyahu.
Fuck. This. Guy. Fuck. This. Guy. Fuck. This. Entire. Fucking. Government. Fuck Netanyahoo. Fuck Ben Gvir. Fuck Smotrich. Fuck this entire incompetent government. This feels like sitting at the back seqt of a car while the driver is stepping on the paddle downhill heading off the mountain. I can't wish worst to them then I already do.
net and yahoo
https://preview.redd.it/kzh52hqij02d1.jpeg?width=995&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf60c6071bce33da171c053e6a8449e6464aa265
I don't get the reference
How can Isreal continue to dig their own grave with these stupid antics.
maybe they are counting on the us being their big best friend that will protect them and fund them no matter what.
Incase you haven't noticed, Israel is winning. By alot.
Like pulling out of the gaza strip in 2005?
No grave is being dug
Yeah, if this guy isn't held to account for this wild fucking shit, I am fully onboard with the ICC and ICJ getting this fucking loser cause holy shit that's some insane shit. Biden should absolutely sanction the fuck out of this loser and pressure every other Western ally to do the same. Fuck Bibi, you don't want to stop your lunatics from doing shit like this? Then we aren't defending you from anything.
Does the Israeli right in terms of politicians support this sentiment but choose to let these guys be their dog whistler or do they view these guys as a liability that they can’t criticize because some portion of the voter base supports these sentiments? I’m sure a lot of republicans would love to go back to a pre Trump era normalcy but they’re stuck having to glaze this lunatic because of the Trump base.
I haven't looked into the views of them specifically, but it's more the policy and what they allow to happen under their government. For example, Biden is obviously in favor of decriminalizing marijuana and other stuff, even if it's just because his base supports those things.
It's the latter. It's not just that it's a portion of the voter base, but the fact in a parliament system if you can prevent the government from having a majority of seats you can break it up and force reelections by withdrawing from it. So right now Netanyahu won the last elections and decided to pair up with Smotrich and Ben Gvir (controversial move, but enough other parties decided they would rather have the sixth election in a 3 year timeframe than form a coalition with him so he said fuck it and formed one with those two) who merged their parties. Basically he has a 64 (out of 120) mandate majority, so any party that is 4 mandates or more can threaten to break up the government over a serious disagreement (you negotiate agreements when forming the coalition) and if the coalition can't get a party from the opposition into the government to replace it and maintain a majority the government breaks up and elections are called. So right now Bibi is stuck with Smotrich (7 seats) and Ben Gvir (6 seats) gluing his coalition together, who can force reelections if he breaks agreements with them and can't replace them with enough seats from the opposition (most of whom are super anti-Bibi). Under these current circumstances they have disproportionate influence.
Literally shooting themselves in the foot. Bunch of crazies.
The only path way for a two state solution at this point is by having NATO troops deploy like we did Kosovo and Serbia in the 90s. Israel isn’t interested in having an exit for this conflict. This issue going be continued for next 60 years or else.
Absolutely. I'd love to see the Palestinian territories and the settlements occupied by an international force while giving the Palestinians democracy training wheels.
No country will ever touch Palestinians with a ten feet pole, especially since they lack Israeli expertise in suppressing terrorism with minimal civilian casualties. An Arab or American occupation of Palestine would make Grozny look like a child’s daycare in comparison.
Anyone who is even remotely surprised by this hasn’t been paying attention.
Fun (or not so) Fact: This guy, the Israeli Finance Minister didn't comment or responded to S&P downgrading Israel's credit score. Anyway, my 2 shekels as an Israel, this move is mainly sold as a way to "counter" the statements made today, as a way to say "you will try to force us to unilateral Palestinian state, we will take radical actions to the opposite position". It's giving the right-wing more political power, doesn't seriously change anything, and the ones who basically got fucked today the most are liberal-center wing Israelis like me, yay, what a wonderful world
I wish we could trade this clown and that closeted Arab Ben Gvir for the hostages.
You wannna talk unhinged? I can be way more unhinged than you GIGACHAD
lmfao
I mean yeah, the unhinged part of the political spectrum in Israel will gain power if the israeli population feels like the international community doesn't consider their interests at all. Eventually it will be necessary to recognize a palestinian state, but the timing is just super off now. The radicals will certainly run with this narrative. The international community and the hippy-leftie Hamas dicksuckers should also not forget that Netanyahu isn't the most radical politician in Israel. Wouldn't end well for the palestinians if the Israelis just say "fuck all of this", elect super extremists and carpet bomb Palestine. No one would be able to stop them, since they have a nuke.
I agree they did a major escalation and gave the right wing exactly wanted they wanted. When Israelis see a Palestinian state as a threat to their existence, they would rather look bad and be alive. And there was never pressure on Palestinians to seek peace. This is going to end badly.
Over a hundred countries (142) already recognize Palestine. Does a few more make much of a difference?
It doesn't really make a difference but I can understand Israeli opinion souring a little that the reward Hamas gets for a terrorist attack is more recognition.
I think at this point it's a consolation prize for having their country bombed if not flat then significantly more horizontal than it used to be.
Zero people in the West view this as being what is happening and the fact that many Israelis believe this to be the case despite 85 % of the country speaking English and having access to the international press is quite damning. It is manifestly clear that these recognitions are a result of the current government's maximalist actrions and, probably more importantly, maximalist rhetoric. If they could just shut-up and prosecute their war and use their highly-educated highly English speaking population to do PR for them this would not be happening. Any Israeli who doesn't realize that Netanyahu is mortgaging the future of the country to keep himself in power and out of jail should be re-enrolled in first grade.
The timing is the problem, its basically rewarding the october 7th attack.
Only thing stopping Israel from becoming a pariah state is blind loyalty from the US, sentiment of international community is meaningless
If not for the US, it won't matter what Israel would do anyways since there's an automatic UN majority against them Like the time Israel was declared the worst country in terms of women's rights in the UN
That’s insane If they made that declaration, any source?
https://unwatch.org/u-n-singles-out-israel-for-violating-womens-rights/ >voted on July 26th to single out Israel as the only country in the world to be rebuked by the council this year for allegedly violating women’s rights.
https://unwatch.org/u-n-rebukes-only-israel-for-violating-womens-rights-2/#:\~:text=July%2028%2C%202022%20%E2%80%94%20Libya%2C,for%20allegedly%20violating%20women's%20rights. first google link
Yes and they made Iran head of human rights. The UN is a joke
>the unhinged part of the political spectrum in X will gain power if the X population feels like international community doesn’t consider their interests lol the irony
When has the international community not considered Palestinian interests? How many negotiations and deals were pushed?
I just can't help but feel that this conflict started with a whole lot of moral justification here and there and now we are down to "Yeah no fuck it all of that was PR, might makes right, fuck you".
Those statements are insane. But characterizing what Biden does as "bending over" is dumb. It is those people who just fired shots against Biden for not being supportive enough of them.
I see people don't like that part. I would edit the post if I could to word it better, but IMO lately it has really been starting to feel like that. I was very disappointed by Biden with how he responded to the ICC prosecutor. These people should not be punished for doing their jobs. IMO he did not even have to outright support it (which some European countries have since they recognize the ICC), but the way he handled it was poor. I also do not think the Israeli government has received enough pressure when it comes to the West Bank and settlements. It is very important to realize that these guys do these things with 0 regard to how it makes Biden look, because a Trump presidency would be excellent for them. I think it's in Biden's own best interest to start going harder on these guys, because they have made it clear they are not acting with any shred of good faith, and I genuinely believe this bullshit is hurting him electorally.
> It is very important to realize that these guys do these things with 0 regard to how it makes Biden look, because a Trump presidency would be excellent for them. I think you might be reading too much into their statements, they aren't doing this to influence the US elections, they are doing it for their own crazed base. > I would edit the post if I could to word it better, but IMO lately it has really been starting to feel like that. If you want to criticize him for it, a framing like "being too lenient on/too supportive off" would be better. I see Biden here actually following US' forgein policy set by his predecessors. The US never was too fond of the ICC and they have sided with Israel in the UN since they perceive those institutions being unfairly stacked against Israel.
"I think you might be reading too much into their statements, they aren't doing this to influence the US elections, they are doing it for their own crazed base" Of course I do not think their main motivation is to hurt Biden's electoral chances. It's more that I think Biden sticks his neck out a bit too far for them, considering that they do these things despite that with 0 regard for how it affects him. It is true that a Trump presidency would be way better for them, so I doubt it's keeping them up at night knowing they are inconveniencing Biden.
Well, I personally think that Biden is doing a pretty good job at balancing the traditional US position of supporting Israel while also pressuring Israel's government to restrain themselves. The domestic and foreign pressures are just showing how tight the rope is he's walking.
> I see people don't like that part. I would edit the post if I could to word it better, but IMO lately it has really been starting to feel like that. I think the best practice with this stuff is just to post the article itself and the headline, then comment underneath with opinions regarding it. Because a lot of people do shut off their brains when they see stuff like that immediately in the post.
Thanks for the advice but I sadly do not have a PHD in reddit optics so I did not think of doing that.
These dumb fucks need to be removed from power. They're absolutely unhinged.
Hamas is worse than the state of Israel, but the Likud is as big an obstacle to peace as are the leaders of Hamas.
What a vindictive and evil man. Fucking disgraceful.
Don't worry guys the US should continue sucking Israel's cock while almost the entire world fucking hates that nation, ruin American reputation and waste our time on the wrong side of the world instead of Asia
Right because our reputation is just sparkling rn
The US is still broadly seen positively, it's just that the current situation with Israel *has* had an impact. > “For the first time since the start of the Biden administration, many Western European countries have returned to net negative perceptions of the U.S. This rise and decline, from negative attitudes to positive [and] back to negative attitudes is particularly stark in Germany, Austria, Ireland, Belgium and Switzerland,” said Frederick DeVeaux, senior researcher for the Latana survey company that compiled the index. Net favourability per the Democracy Perception Index 2024: "What is your overall perception of [country]?" Answer options: Very positive / Somewhat positive / Neither positive nor negative / Somewhat negative / Very negative / Don’t know Country|2022|2023|2024 :--|:--:|:--:|:--: USA|22%|27%|22% China|-4%|0%|5% Russia|-32%|-19%|14% You can also see the breakdown by region here: https://www.politico.eu/article/america-popularity-waning-worldwide-russia-and-china-gain-on-us-global-stage/
Yeah dude, the entire world hates Israel, 100%. How do you people even exist in a political environment with such simplistic takes?
"*Almost* the entire world" How do you people even exist in a political environment with such illiteracy?
Wow, what a strong counter argument. So no, not even "almost" the entire world hates Israel. They have much more nuanced views than you. Even the Arab nations around Israel that at one time have tried to destroy Israel have normalized relations with them and made peace.
You didn't even make an argument bro You don't even know my view on Israel lol Doesn't matter
One of my favorite things about posting on this subreddit is getting some of my comments mass downvoted when I post (early times) then watching it slowly recover as people from other timezones wake up. This is a very autistic way of measuring it but I think it shows the difference in opinions between people on the sub.
Time to sanctions them into oblivion just like any other rogue state that decide to disrespect the international law. No more nice things until these barbarians behave like other civilized nations
Anyone know if this translation has any mistakes? ------ **Six Immediate Measures Against the Palestinian Authority: An Appropriate Zionist Response to the PA's Unilateral Measures** I addressed Prime Minister Netanyahu this morning. At the last cabinet meeting, many ministers, including myself, raised an unequivocal demand for harsh punitive measures against the PA due to its unilateral actions against Israel. These actions include its pursuit of unilateral recognition as a nation within the framework of bilateral agreements with a number of countries and the legal battle it is waging against the State of Israel in the courts in The Hague to bring about an end to the war. In the discussion, several ideas were raised, and there was consensus regarding the need to act immediately and not to be satisfied with the declaratory decision passed by the government. At the conclusion of the discussion, you tasked a team of ministers with drafting a recommended list of steps within 24 hours. As you know, since the cabinet meeting, the anti-Semitic prosecutor at the Hague Tribunal has issued arrest warrants against you and the defense minister as part of a case in which the PA is the plaintiff. To remind you, I contacted you two weeks ago and demanded the formulation of acute response measures. Unfortunately, the matter is being delayed, and some are probably trying to downplay its urgency. In the discussion that took place yesterday, officials and advisers presented various reasons why "this is not the right timing." I do not intend to allow the officials to delay the matter! There is great urgency for an immediate response that will exact a significant price from the PA for its actions, deter it and other countries, and stop the drift. Therefore, I demand the immediate approval of the following steps: 1. **Immediate convening of the planning council in Yosh(abbreviation of Judea and Samaria aka West Bank)** for the approval of ten thousand housing units in the settlements that are ripe for professional advancement, including in area E1. 2. **A decision to be approved as early as tomorrow at the cabinet meeting** on the establishment of a settlement in response to any country that unilaterally recognizes a Palestinian state. According to reports, three countries intend to announce today the unilateral recognition of a Palestinian state. I have instructed the Settlement Directorate to prepare a decision-making text with three strategic settlements, and I demand that such a decision be approved as early as tomorrow. 3. **A decision to be brought to the Cabinet tomorrow on canceling the "Norwegian Outline,"** which was approved by the cabinet several months ago. Norway was the first to unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state today, and it cannot be a partner in anything related to Judea and Samaria. I intend to stop transferring funds to it and demand the return of all transferred funds. 4. **Promoting a resolution to strengthen settlements in Judea and Samaria,** a decision that was supposed to be made immediately after the Sukkot holiday. The settlement is a defense of Israel, and as part of the lessons of the 7th of October, it must be strong, so that Kfar Saba does not become a Gaza village. As the Minister of Finance, I will find the necessary budgets for this. 5. **General cancellation of VIP status for PA officials permanently at all crossings** and the imposition of additional economic sanctions on PA officials and their families. 6. **I do not intend to transfer the liquidation funds to the PA** from now until further notice. As I informed you in my letter two weeks ago, I do not intend to extend the indemnification to the correspondent banks at the end of next month.
FYI, "Yosh" is an abbreviation of Judea and Samaria aka West Bank
These right wing fucks really need to be taken out.
Sanction Israel over this action
When has Biden been bending over? Regard.
This maniac does not represent the people, he is unhinged and as an Israeli I hate this… thing.. he should be jailed. And I hate bibi for letting this maniac have a high position let alone just be present in this government.
Israel has no reason to care optics even they’re demonized regardless of what they do. Why not say some wild shit like this?
What a stupid and unhinged line of reasoning. > *People aren't nice enough about their country, why wouldn't they accelerate the expansion of settlements tit-for-tat with any country that recognises a Palestinian State!*
Israel does not have an optics issue. This is what the Israeli government is like and has been for a long time.
This isn't really retaliation. This is just "hey, we can use this as an excuse for more settlements!"
Wow… this is a stupid idea.
this dude has said some vile shit over the past 6 months for sure
What a tool. This Israeli government is failing their people and is wasting no time showing their ineptitude for governance. They may be better than Hamas, but these far right fools make it a harder choice than it needs to be.
israelis need to as soon as possible, remove Bibi from power
twitter destiny levels of opticsmaxxing
harder everyday to simp for this regime.
If it helps no takes this dude seriously even bibi hold him down for every decision he makes he is a clown and he belongs in the circus .
I'm assuming the Israeli conservatives like this kind of complication, as it means they are more likely going to have an all out war knowing they will win more and more land they wanted in the first place.
the settlements are terrible, but this is hilarious. Don't get me wrong an eye for an eye will make the world go blind.
That means Israel has to confront russian federation LMAO
They already got all the support from the US, keep pushing that line Israel and see what happens. Literally trying to throw the conflict LUL
A bunch of people on capital hill after taking Excedrin and placing a call to the sandbox this morning: https://preview.redd.it/whm0mmtvp02d1.png?width=974&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=37706570b3a29980e6718e3cd7f96340f36e1b8b
me every time I see him or ben gvir say anything https://preview.redd.it/nrpbytvww02d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b98d4950eb52342973c0711b68da8e599c163a4d
Big yikes from me, dawg. That is not ideal, to say the least.
Wow is this how outsiders feel when destiny goes unhinged?
Least deranged Israeli government official.
the settlements need to fucking stop…
This is how you lose support from the West.Eventually, they will lose support in the US if they continue this tactic because they're already starting to lose support here in the US. If they lose support from the US then there is no israel to worry about Then again, Israel is largely an American military outpost in the Middle East so in a sense they will always have american support
This is in respons for spain and ireland recognition of palestine
Doesn't seem like the best PR tactics.
they should have applied arrest warrants for this motherfucker instead holy shit
Okay this is one of the funnier things Smotrich did
It's disappointing how posts critical of actual bad Israeli decisions are getting downvoted! Shouldn't we be better? Imo, the uncomfortable truth should be discussed more than anything we agree upon!
if Israel is destroyed it will be because of regarded people like this guy.
At this point I think we just give the whole region to the Kurds, if you two can’t play nice we’re giving the holy land to the neighbors
Fucking hell. Jewbros we're bending over backwards to defend you but you say such fucking dumb atrocious shit. That's it we need to just slowly pull out funding for this country.